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Speaking in Tongues · Why We Do What We Do

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  You're listening to Why we Do what we do? Welcome to Why We Do
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  what we Do? I am your choo host, Abraham, and I see,
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  I thought you were going to do mine. I'm your blabbering host,
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  Shane. I thought you were going to do the blabbering host, and I
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  my friend, keep me on my toes. Welcome, by the way,
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  do hard to unpack. If I do understand that for sure, it is
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  a weird thing that we're talking about today, and before we get into that,
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  the end of this discussion. But today's episode comes out on If you're really
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  support those black businesses. I mean, do it all year rounds, but
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  a Georgia known for the peach? Is that like a Georgia thing? Yeah,
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  yeah, it's the It's the peach state. Okay, cool, So
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  there you go. So George is all about this I guess that, and
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  suppressing voters. Yeah, I mean they're all acting like blots, you know.
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  Yeah, there you go. All right, Well, we're not talking
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  about any of those things, including Georgia. Oh maybe, and inadvertently we're
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  talking about Georgia. We are actually trying to We're trying to answer two questions.
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  What is speaking in tongues? And when did people start speaking in tongues.
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  So we're talking about speaking in tongues. So in this episode, we're
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  going to figure out what Homer, machine Gun, Kelly the cod Eate,
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  and Linda Blair all have in common. You know how you can tell that
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  Shane wrote an episode. Shane will weave a complex tapestry of interrelated topics from
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  his research. It's really be so fun. I mean, son, I
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  need to do this more. It really it makes it brings me joy to
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  find these weird threads. It's like, how can I make this thing tied
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  to things that don't like, that don't make any sense. I'm so glad
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  that we were able to land on that. So let's talk about this thing
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  speaking in tongues. Yeah, this is a topic that you brought to me
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  last week. You're like, hey, I was thinking about this and I
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  was like, yeah, I'll do it. And then I started doing the
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  research this morning and came across so many things. It is so wild.
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  So speaking in tongues what is it? It's an event, an activity,
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  or practice where a person will either utter words or speech like sounds that are
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  believed to be of a language unknown to the speaker. Yeah, So basically
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  what it is is somebody starts speaking a language that they shouldn't know. Now,
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  as part of the definition here that it's also like not necessarily an exact
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  language, but like maybe some kind of channeling of a religious language or is
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  that separate or tangential to the definition. So that's the majority of like the
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  context that's like usually kind of like a religious practice. But there are some
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  non religious, maybe not non religious the word non Christian, examples of this
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  that do exist, and I think we're gonna we're gonna talk about those two.
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  But yeah, it's it's typically found in like a religious or spiritual context,
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  all right. And so the really scientific e term here for this phenomenon
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  of speaking or uttering words or speech like sounds that are of another language that
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  you do not speak is called glossolalia. Gloss comes from Greek glossa, meaning
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  tongue or language, and lalia coming from the Greek laleo, meaning to speak,
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  chat, prattle, or to make a sound. Some people may be
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  familiar with echolalia, which would be to essentially mimic speech sounds or repeat scripted
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  speech sounds or language. Yeah, and so it's reported that speaking in tongues
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  typically occurs during states of intense religious experiences, and people who experience a speaking
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  tongues thing. People experience it report that they lose conscious control of their vocal
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  behavior. So essentially, what you'll find, and you've probably seen videos of
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  people doing this. If you see like those really big mega churches where everybody's
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  kind of dancing and like everybody seems like their bodies out of control and they're
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  kind of making a lot of noises, but it doesn't really sound like they're
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  saying anything. That's typically what we're talking about when we are referencing speaking in
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  tongues. Yeah, you can also see this in the documentary Jesus Camp.
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  Yes, almost reference that for this episode. Well I threw it in there
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  there it is. Yes. Yeah, So the idea here is if they
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  lose their control, then there's somehow channeling this language, and if the context
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  is a religious one, perhaps they're channeling a spiritual or divine language of some
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  sort. And this phenomenon isn't a new one, with reports occurring as far
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  back as Greek religions roughly the ninth or eighth centuries BC, and people sort
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  of discovered they can just sort of word vomit sounds out without trying to control
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  explicitly the direction of those sounds such that they then sound like words of their
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  own native language, right, And that struck people as being really incredible that
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  they could make sounds with their face. Yeah, it's pretty incredible that people
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  could do like, wait, that's a news sound that you made with your
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  face. So a lot of the early descriptions came from Homer's writings, and
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  so he would describe people that would be zessed by like deities in the polytheistic
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  type of place that they were. This goes back to the bi cameral minds
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  that we did an episode on kind of yeah, and it's pretty interesting.
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  So, like a lot of descriptions are people kind of speaking languages or sharing
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  thoughts or saying things that they shouldn't be able to, like they're not supposed
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  to be able to speak the language. But it's we'll see that that's not
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  quite what it is. So there are also references to what they describe as
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  ecstatic speech in the Hebrew Bible and cases of behavior that have been seen throughout
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  Christianity sporadically. But what you'll find is it kind of happens in like very
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  particular places and we'll get into like what those circumstances are. So speaking of
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  Christianity. According to the New Testament, the first occurrence occurred among the followers
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  of Jesus at Pentecost. From Acts of the Apostles to Book two, Chapter
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  four, speaking in tongues occurred when quote all of them were filled with the
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  Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit gave them the
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  ability end quote. Amen. Amen. Basically, what the description was that
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  the followers of Jesus at Pentecost were able to speak languages that they couldn't because
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  they were bestowed a gift or divine power, which was that's what speaking in
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  tongues is. And we'll talk about it being a gift. So as a
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  matter of fact, Apostle Paul specifically refers to speaking tongues as a spiritual gift
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  that is bestowed upon people followers of God, followers of Christ and all that,
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  and Apostle Paul will refer to it as a spiritual gift multiple times in
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  the Bible. Now. Centuries later, there appeared to be a resurgence of
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  glossolalia with the Protestant Revivals and the development of the Pentecostal church in the United
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  States, and this would you actually see many of the priests, pastors,
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  I guess whatever the religious figurehead of these particular church is called. I'm not
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  very good at my assigning like authority position to denomination repertoire. So I apologize
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  for forgetting those wrong and for not spending any time at all trying to look
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  up and figure out what they were. But the leaders of these who specifically
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  they also call this a spiritual gift, Like this same exact language came back
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  around in this revival. I think it's fascinating that, of course it is
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  showing up a whole lot in the United States, right, And you'll find
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  like a lot of the pastors and the figureheads that are in these churches will
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  pray for somebody, and they'll start with something that is in tongues and then
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  go into some kind of prayer that is easily understood by the verbal community around
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  them. So it's super kind of like fascinating to watch just to kind of
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  see what people can make up off the cuff. Yeah, but today most
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  occurrences are reported to occur within Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, and other
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  more established denominations, but specifically looking at the Pentecostal church is like kind of
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  the primary example of that. Yeah, that makes sense. So many of
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  the video examples we wanted for this episode show people making quick rhythmic sounds that
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  are incomprehensible as language, but could easily sort of present as if they were
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  a language. And typically you'll find examples of people praying and tongues or engaging
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  and singing slash dancing also paired with the performance of their sort of tongues thing
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  and that they're doing. So let's let's actually just include here a quick clip
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  of someone praying and tongues. You can hear sort of what that sounds like
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  in case you you didn't know already. All right, here's the clip.
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  Let's see thank you jus see. Well, if that disturbs you and it
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  makes it sound like you're listening to a horror movie, you're not alone.
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  You'll hear the one person in there actually like speaking the prayer and then the
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  father of the priest doing the speaking and tongues behind it. Like to that,
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  Yeah, you're like kind of the ah sounds a lot like the Yeah,
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  that's the example of tongues and that's in that video. Yeah, as
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  you said, he kind of immediately jumped into that, and so then the
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  other guy sort of followed suit after a moment, sort of like, well,
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  English apparently is not on the menu for today's prayer circle. So let
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  me let me switch over to random speech sounds. Yes, yes, yes,
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  yes exactly, speaking of speaking in tongues. We're going to let some
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  advertisers throw some nonsense at you, and then we'll come right back with some
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  why are people speaking in tongues? Why were advertisers speaking in tongues? We
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  don't know. They just want you to buy stuff, and sometimes the art
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  of confusion is the way to do it. But let's get back into our
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  discussion. So what is going on here? So there are a lot of
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  arguments as to why, and what I learned as I was kind of doing
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  this this study where this research was that most of the arguments are theological.
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  So I'm going to give you those ones and then we will spend a lot
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  of time talking about the behavioral part of it. But there are a lot
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  of these arguments about why somebody might speak in tongues. We'll just kind of
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  share and you could be the judge at the time of this recording. There
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  are a few theological explanations for why people might do this, and according to
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  what are called glass of laylists, which is actually kind of fun to say,
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  Yeah, they explain that speaking tongues is a divine gift or a spiritual
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  gifts, and that kind of goes back to what is said in the Bible
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  an apostle, Apostle Paul and all that. Because the tongues themselves can either
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  be real or unlearned languages, so that's something that's really important. It can
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  either be a language that exists or an unlearned language. Just can include things
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  like language of the spirit or language of angels, which humans couldn't possibly know
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  unless they were gifted with it. So a lot of times what you'll find
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  it sounds like gibberish because the person speaking it is speaking a language that humans
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  do not have access to, right, That's what they're saying, and according
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  to gloss of laylists, that they are gifted this divine ability to speak languages
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  that humans have not been privy to. Sure, and side note here,
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  which is kind of fun, is that the term for being able to speak
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  an unknown or unlearned language is xenoglossia just so a very fun word to say.
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  Yeah, I love that, and it does make a lot of sense.
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  You can sort of see the etymological roots of those words as we've been
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  given to understand them based on this discussion and just the word zeno by itself.
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  Absolutely. There's also a group of people who argue against this, and
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  these are called cessationists. Cessation obviously meaning to stop. Then they believe that
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  these spiritual gifts have not been given since early Christianity. Instead, it is
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  believed that the ability to speak in tongues is not a miraculous gift, but
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  rather a taught and learned behavior. So there, I think this is a
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  group of Christians who essentially are believing that, like, speaking in tongues may
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  have been real, but what's going on today is not. Whatever the real
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  version of speaking in tongues used to be. Yeah, that's probably the closest
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  I'll agree with all of this. They're like, no, no, no,
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  no, no, it's a learned behavior now, but it used to
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  be real. I'm like, oh, you were so close. Yeah.
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  But other folks believe that glossalalia does exist, but that it's a form of
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  prelist. So, now if you're not familiar with that, is prelist is
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  essentially just the spiritual delusion. That's what they describe it as. What they
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  say these other folks, They say that those who speak in tongues are tapping
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  into some kind of spiritual power, just not the Holy Ghost, which is
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  spooky. Also, I really like this idea, right, that this is
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  a group of people who are Christians. Ago, Yeah, you're you're you're
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  definitely speaking in tongues and you're tapping into something, but it's not God,
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  which would tell me it's like, but aren't you a monotheistic like religion,
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  Like what are you pulling? Like what are you doing? Like what are
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  you tapping into? Because that's scarier. So you're acknowledging that there's some other
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  power besides God, which seems sacrilegious, I think, or like contradictory even
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  like, even if it's not sacrilegious, it's just so contradictory, unless it's
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  demons, which we'll talk about. Sure. A final theological position is that
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  speaking in tongues is actually not a Christian spiritual gift, but rather a folk
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  practice. And through this belief, it is said that the cause of speaking
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  in tongues is better explained by naturalistic means and often misattributed to the Holy Spirit.
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  So still here that people are speaking in tongues in a manner sort of
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  in a way, but not in the way that they think, right,
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  And so with all of that being said, let's get into the science behind
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  this. Currently, glossilalia is classified as a non neurogenic language disorder. This
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  simply means that any alterations or challenges with language are psychosomatic rather than organic.
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  So it's not like a brain injury, it's not like something has caused this
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  person to be able to speak a different language. Is essentially saying these are
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  all psychosomatic symptoms. There's nothing organic or nothing as part of the hardware that's
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  creating this type of issue. Yes, and that actually does not mean,
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  though, that this is a psychological disorder. Those who do speak in tongues
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  are rarely, if ever, diagnosed with a specific psychological disorder. The sort
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  of treat it as being like you just have these hallucinogenic outbursts sometimes and that's
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  cool, yeah, yeah, Or they're going you're doing this on purpose.
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  This is a behavior that you've learned in your congregation, right, And that's
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  actually most of what they've found. But I thought this was kind of cool.
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  So according to a study conducted by Newberg, who was a neurologist around
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  this, they found that brain skins showed strange activity occurring while someone was speaking
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  in tongues. There's a direct quote from an interview about the study, and
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  this is from James Cohen who was kind of talking about this quote. The
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  findings from the frontal lobes are very clear and they make sense, but the
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  caud eight is usually active when you have a positive effect, pleasure and positive
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  emotions, so it's not clear what the findings are. Essentially, what they
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  found in the study was that while the frontal lobe and all this stuff was
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  kind of still active, the caut eate in particular was not. It was
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  basically shut off. It was like switched off during like anytime somebody was speaking
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  in tongues. And for those of you who don't know what the cadate is,
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  fun fact, the cadate is one of those areas of the brain where
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  we know that the whole brain is involved in various aspects of our behavior,
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  but this one is considered to be specialized in its involvement in motor and emotional
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  control is located near the thalamus and the center of that gray pile between your
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  ears. And so if you see that there is relatively low activity in an
• 18:25
  area that is associated with emotional control and motor control during the situation, then
• 18:30
  that sort of speaks to it's sort of freewheeling, if you will. Yeah,
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  it's kind of basically like part of your brain is just not active in
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  that moment. Sleepy. It's a sleepy time, so your brains is kind
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  of going willy nillly. Sure. Now, the study also found that there
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  was greater activity in the parietal region, which is the part that quote takes
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  sensory information and tries to create a sense of self and how you relate to
• 18:52
  the rest of the world. So basically like you have no control, but
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  your body is still seeking self in the context of the world. Is what's
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  happening while people like neurologically while people are speaking in tongues, And so it's
• 19:04
  kind of funny about this is that essentially the study found that these results that
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  they observed neurologically were almost the opposite of those who engage in meditation. So
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  what those speaking in tongues, having no control, but a greater sense of
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  self and specifically in relation to God. Right, and people who are meditating
• 19:25
  had like no sense of self, but they had greater control of how they
• 19:29
  directed their meditations. Yeah, super fascinating. So all right, I guess
• 19:33
  maybe it's probably worth Do you want to speak in tongues? Would you like
• 19:37
  to learn? How? You're here now? Presumably you want to learn how
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  to speak in tongues? I mean, sure, we can be students and
• 19:45
  teachers here. So my favorite thing about going over the wiki how the wiki
• 19:48
  how I guess is what it's is, how it's pronounced. It gave a
• 19:51
  step by step process on how to speak in tongues, but throughout it it
• 19:55
  was like, my favorite lines were like, if somebody doesn't agree with you,
• 19:59
  just don't talk to them about it. That's a good that's a good
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  line for a Wikiha, that came up so many times. So if you're
• 20:07
  not sure how to start speaking tongues, we've got a tutor off for you.
• 20:10
  Yeah, but here's how we're gonna start. Step one. Place faith
• 20:12
  in God salvation plan at the forefront of your mind. So as we're walking
• 20:17
  through this, God salvation plan is in the forefront, front and center of
• 20:21
  your mind as we explore this. Step two, study the Bible to learn
• 20:25
  what it says about speaking in tongues. Uh huh. I don't have a
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  Bible near me, but I know that Apostle Paul is the guy to go
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  to. Apparently. Step three build the confidence in yourself to speak in tongues.
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  I think I can. I think I can. Step four create a
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  distraction free environment around you for best results. Closet, shed crawl space might
• 20:45
  do fine. Cult house. Step five start by making simple monosyllabic sounds,
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  and they actually show a couple that are like ka bah dah see like they
• 20:56
  like they had a couple like they had an info graphic on there that showed
• 21:00
  sounds. You can make that tracks or use the ESA from the VB map.
• 21:03
  You could just use that. I guess you need to assess. Step
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  six listen for repetition or hence in the sounds that you are making, which
• 21:12
  is a good thing apparently. Yeah. Step seven is try praying those words
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  or sounds it seemed to pop up in your head. So basically, if
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  a sound pops up in your head, just make that sound as you're praying.
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  Step eight, ask for increased faith to reinforce your devout mindset. Uh
• 21:29
  huh. So if you have your dice with you, go ahead and roll
• 21:30
  for increased faith mindset faith check must roll. If four better, yeah,
• 21:38
  use your eight side of dice. Now, there are a few things to
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  consider so that your practice doesn't waiver. First, please note that God doesn't
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  force you to speak in tongues. It's willing, it's not coercive. Also,
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  try not to overthink or feel discouraged about speaking in tongues. We cannot
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  stress enough how little thinking you should be doing. And finally, avoid talking
• 22:00
  about this prayer method with people who don't accept it. So that's the that's
• 22:03
  the number three thing to remember. If people don't accept it, you don't
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  got to talk to them about it. Yeah. Number four, if someone's
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  criticizing you, put your hands in your ears, close your eyes and la
• 22:12
  la la la la, I can't hear you, which is a version of
• 22:15
  speaking in tongues technically, yeah, exactly, Yeah, speaking tongues and avoid
• 22:19
  distracting. That's the best thing that has come out of this episode is the
• 22:25
  idea that like, in order to stop talking to people about speaking in tongues,
• 22:27
  speaking tongues at them with your fingers and your ears, and that will
• 22:30
  immediately stop that conversation. Yea perfect police. Don't do that to us if
• 22:37
  you happen to encounter us. I mean, if you did, I would
• 22:41
  just laugh. I would appreciate that. So maybe that's gonna be the next
• 22:42
  shirt where to somebody going la la la la la psychology rules. All right,
• 22:48
  Well, let's do our best to dig in with what we can in
• 22:52
  terms of what there is to say about this from a sort of a psychological
• 22:56
  scientific view. I mean, we kind of have by breaking down the neurological
• 22:59
  aspects, but you know, a little bit more about that I think is
• 23:02
  the way to go. So it's not an uncommon practice, like this is
• 23:04
  something that people do all over the world in different spaces, but it's unknown
• 23:08
  how many people in the world actively practice this, partially because they don't tell
• 23:12
  anybody they do. The opposite of vegans and CrossFit people. Yeah, if
• 23:18
  you're CrossFit and you're vegan, we know, but if you're speaking in tongues,
• 23:22
  we definitely don't know. Yeah, but it's discouraged to speak about this
• 23:25
  with people who are uncomfortable about it. So people are not gonna like kind
• 23:29
  of do this or if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen in a communal
• 23:30
  space or in private And so where the practice happens most often is inside Pentecostal
• 23:37
  churches, but it does happen in other spaces. Yes, rockly, it's
• 23:41
  just occurring to me. You know, how to tell if someone is a
• 23:44
  bicyclist or a runner, how they'll tell you. So, as you were
• 23:48
  just saying, although this was largely sort of revived in these Pentecostal United States
• 23:53
  based sort of circles, it does exist outside of the Pentecostal Church and takes
• 23:57
  the form of the Newstic glossolalia. And that was not me speaking in tongues.
• 24:03
  That was me reading real words. Just sounded like tongues. Yeah,
• 24:07
  I think if you just read scientific jargon it would sound like it would definitely
• 24:11
  sound like speaking in tongues. Yeah. So there's that that can be found
• 24:15
  in spiritual practices related to paganism, shamanism, and other religious practices that include
• 24:19
  these mediumistic qualities, which doesn't mean kind of make sense. As we said,
• 24:25
  when we were looking at the historical roots of this there was the sort
• 24:27
  of level of being enamored with the fact that we can make random speech sounds,
• 24:33
  kind of random speech sounds, and that that seemed striking to those who
• 24:37
  saw speech as being such organized making sense toward its type of behavior that we
• 24:41
  all do. I was kind of starting thinking about this as like, you
• 24:44
  know, there's so many times where I am catching myself like talking to myself,
• 24:48
  like in private while I'm working on something, but I'm saying words,
• 24:51
  right, I'm not just kind of like I'm not talking like a sim right,
• 24:56
  And I think that's something that's like a real all. But I think
• 25:00
  it's really important to remember that. And so what a lot of people have
• 25:03
  done is when they've started looking in evaluating this kind of this experience or this
• 25:07
  phenomenon, what they started looking at were kind of the language and the sounds
• 25:11
  of people are making. And the first thing is discovered was that the pseudo
• 25:15
  language that was being spoken actually lacks meaning and has no contextual revalence. Which
• 25:18
  is it really important for language? Right? Language typically has some kind of
• 25:22
  context, some kind of meaning, syntax, all of these things, and
• 25:26
  it has context, it has somebody else that I can actually talk to and
• 25:30
  they kind of mediate and reinforce or reward my speaking behavior, and so that's
• 25:36
  not happening here in the same way. Essentially, what's happening is the sounds
• 25:40
  that are being made are non functional sounds. They're just kind of sounds and
• 25:42
  babbling just because. And from that verbal behavior standpoint, and this is really
• 25:47
  important to think about. If the person is speaking a language nobody else can
• 25:51
  speak or understand, they are a verbalizer without an audience, like they are
• 25:55
  essentially engaging in a behavior or without a group of people to understand what they're
• 25:59
  saying and to mediate that reinforcement other than going what are you saying right now,
• 26:03
  which is a different kind of maybe reinforcement. And so what ends up
• 26:07
  happening is the language these sounds kind of lose a functional effect. They don't
• 26:11
  have the same type of effect that you know, members of a verbal community
• 26:15
  might have. Like you know, if you and I are speaking the same
• 26:18
  language, I can reward your verbal behavior and vice versa. But if I'm
• 26:22
  speaking the language of angels and nobody else around me does it, then they
• 26:26
  can't reward the behavior in the same way. Yeah, it's a very very
• 26:30
  important point that I think we need to spend just a second here on which
• 26:33
  is and you said that this is a verbalizer without an audience, I would
• 26:36
  amend that slightly to be a vocalizer, because if we equate verbalizing with language,
• 26:41
  they're not speaking in language. They have no feedback from themselves or anybody
• 26:45
  else that anything they said has any grammatical sense or meaning. They couldn't tell
• 26:49
  you what they said or and they couldn't tell you consistently what they said.
• 26:52
  If you went through to decode what they did say relative to what they interpret
• 26:56
  themselves as saying, there would be no match this sort of grammatical structure of
• 27:00
  the sounds that they made relatives of the things they believe that they were communicating
• 27:04
  if anything, which oftentimes is not anything, it's just sort of I was
• 27:08
  just communicating like a feeling, you know, right, And so yeah,
• 27:12
  this becomes just because it happened with their mouth doesn't make it language or verbal
• 27:18
  behavior. Right. I could flash my hands around and that could be like
• 27:21
  speaking in tongues sign language addition, and that wouldn't mean anything to anybody who
• 27:26
  would like learn sign language, because just because I'm waving my hands on in
• 27:30
  the air doesn't mean that I'm even replicating the language structure system that is sign
• 27:34
  language. So it's like it's not even fair to call it verbal behavior language.
• 27:38
  It's just stuff I'm doing and the part of my body I'm doing it
• 27:42
  what happens to be my face and specifically my mouth and tongue, or as
• 27:47
  I said, I could be gesticulating wildly with my hands, and they kind
• 27:49
  of functionally all do the same thing, which is that they're not really doing
• 27:53
  anything that's not just self stimulatory, right exactly exactly, And that rules out
• 27:57
  the piece of this being like language, as they sort of said, like
• 28:00
  they're saying they're speaking some of the language, but they're not. Like this
• 28:04
  of rules out that part of it. And that's the magical thinking piece that
• 28:07
  like you'll hear a lot. It's like, well, somebody will go,
• 28:10
  well, how do you know if they're speaking the language of angels and you're
• 28:14
  not privy to it, Well, you're sure, but like you can do
• 28:17
  that with any number of things. It's not a good argument. It's still
• 28:19
  not language. It's always funny how people will kind of finesse that a little
• 28:23
  bit. And if that's the case, how do you know you're not speaking
• 28:26
  the language of the devil exactly. That's what we're going to talk about that
• 28:30
  we're gonna get We're gonna get into that. Also, what you'll find is
• 28:33
  that a lot of the speaking in tongues is usually rhythmic or poetic. It
• 28:36
  seems like it's kind of kind of got like a musicality or a flow to
• 28:38
  it. But what they have found in their analysis is that the sounds that
• 28:44
  the people are making when they're speaking in tongues specifically is very similar, extremely
• 28:48
  similar to the speaker's native tongue. Basically, what they're finding is that it's
• 28:53
  it's pretty rare if it happens at all that the sounds of the speaker is
• 28:57
  making are differing from their native language. And you might be going, well,
• 29:02
  the human mouth can make all the sounds, Sure they can, but
• 29:04
  there are plenty of languages that I cannot mimic. I can't pick up like
• 29:08
  certain accents or certain annunciations that don't come naturally to me. It takes a
• 29:12
  lot of work for me to do that. And what you find is that
• 29:15
  a lot of people are speaking in tongs don't usually create new sounds that they
• 29:18
  normally wouldn't say or use yes critically important part also, and as you said,
• 29:23
  I'd sort of expand on what you were saying there for a moment is
• 29:26
  that there are certain sounds that will occur in certain languages that if you don't
• 29:33
  practice those early on in life. I've heard it said that you start to
• 29:37
  shape sort of your mouth and the muscles in your mouth around certain sounds.
• 29:41
  And so if you haven't picked that up by the time you're sort of in
• 29:45
  adulthood and having cemented that language is part and the sounds of that language is
• 29:48
  part of your vernacular and what you can make that it becomes nearly impossible to
• 29:53
  exactly reproduce those sounds. You can get close, like it'll sound like it,
• 29:57
  but you just will never quite say it because you have never generated that
• 30:02
  mouth position before, and so getting there is like nearly, if not completely
• 30:06
  impossible. And so yeah, you would think that, well, if it
• 30:08
  is in fact something that is channeling, that it's outside of language, then
• 30:14
  the sounds that you make should not be directly related to your own language and
• 30:18
  can include sounds that you would think that your mouth couldn't make, but it
• 30:22
  doesn't. It only includes sounds that you natively include in your own language and
• 30:26
  never include sounds that are outside of that. I think that's a pretty powerful
• 30:30
  argument against it. That's probably one of my favorite points about this. So
• 30:34
  speaking of sounds from your native language, here are some advertisers. There is
• 30:45
  another thing here to consider, which is that it's possible that there are some
• 30:49
  notions or original notions of the idea of speaking in tongues. That was hearing
• 30:53
  other people speak in language that a person just didn't know and not knowing that
• 30:57
  they were speaking in another language. And I will share a quick personal story
• 31:02
  like the first time I heard someone speaking Persian, it was just so different
• 31:06
  from any language that I had heard that to me, I was like I
• 31:07
  couldn't even pick out what sounded like grammatical units. Yeah, and that's purely
• 31:12
  a function of my untrained ear having never been exposed to that pattern or sounds
• 31:18
  before. I think it's a beautiful language, no criticism of it whatsoever.
• 31:22
  I think Persian sounds really cool and hear people speak it, it was just
• 31:26
  it was so different from anything that I had heard that I had trouble picking
• 31:30
  out, like like what are the units here? Like where is Like it
• 31:33
  just didn't I couldn't I couldn't find the rhythm because I wasn't used to it.
• 31:37
  So I could imagine someone hearing something like that it's just a totally foreign
• 31:40
  language and not being able to discern that there are grammatical could consistent grammatical units
• 31:47
  that have functional relevance and instead sort of think like wow, that's just like
• 31:51
  wow, people can make sounds like that and that pattern weird. Yeah,
• 31:53
  And I think that's a really important point to make in all of this too,
• 31:57
  is that there are so many times historically where people will encounter a language
• 32:02
  or either spoken or written that is so unique to them that they can't possibly
• 32:10
  understand it. I mean, all you gotta do if you have not watched
• 32:14
  Trevor Noah stand up and whenever he talks about like some of the languaging around
• 32:17
  like where he grew up and he uses like some of the l and I
• 32:22
  part of my ingrance, but some of the languaging where it's got some of
• 32:23
  the clicks and some of the those types of noises, that's part of kind
• 32:28
  of the syntax and the and the sounds that are made. It's just such
• 32:30
  a different experience. Yeah, So when you have somebody when you've never been
• 32:35
  exposed to that, like we know enough to know, like, oh,
• 32:37
  that could be languaging. We don't know, but like there's a period time
• 32:40
  where like I've never heard that and it just ends up being Japanese, you
• 32:45
  know, but that's happened. Yeah. Now, behaviorally speaking, it is
• 32:49
  possible that similar to things like dancing plagues, we see a group of people
• 32:52
  engage in behavior that seems to produce some kind of reward to vine reward even
• 32:57
  and between the value of connecting with God that I have a value of,
• 33:00
  like I want to get closer to God, and then seeing other people say,
• 33:02
  hey, they're close to God because they're engaging in this particular behavior i
• 33:07
  e. Speaking tongues. It makes sense that a congregation, usually a smaller
• 33:10
  congregation, maybe overcome with this type of behavior and you start seeing more and
• 33:15
  more people within this congregation engaging in this behavior, in this practice as part
• 33:20
  of their kind of their spiritual quest each week. So it makes sense that
• 33:23
  there's that piece of like that group learning, the observational learning, and like
• 33:28
  the reward that comes along with engaging this kind of behavior. Yeah, so
• 33:31
  it might it might set up the occasion where someone then tries it. Yeah,
• 33:36
  and then gets a lot of positive feedback from the community of people who
• 33:39
  are also trying it. And I mean there's no standard for what it is.
• 33:43
  So it's like, if you do anything at all, it probably counts,
• 33:45
  right, and then as long as you feel good about it, that's
• 33:49
  enough to say the spirit has moved you. Basically, uh huh, yeah,
• 33:52
  exactly. Amendes, Heselden and Costello in twenty thirteen discuss foreign accent syndrome,
• 33:59
  which is usually the results of an acquired brain injury. And it's kind
• 34:01
  of exactly what it sounds like someone gets. If someone might receive a head
• 34:06
  injury and suddenly they're speaking their normal language but using sort of a different accent.
• 34:10
  And maybe we should do a whole episode on this at some point,
• 34:13
  But that could be a thing that occurs, is that damage to a part
• 34:15
  of their brain might result in their their language sounding like it has a unique
• 34:20
  sort of accent, inflection, or even like pattern to it. Yeah,
• 34:24
  it's not like I get hit in the head and I can suddenly speak fluent
• 34:28
  Japanese. That's not what it is. Yes, that's never happened. Yeah,
• 34:30
  that's never happened. It's the equivalent of like me getting hit in the
• 34:32
  head and then waking up and going, oh it might but oh, what
• 34:36
  isn't it like that? That would be That's that's what it would be.
• 34:38
  It'd be like me like starting to speak with a British accent. Yeah.
• 34:43
  So Carrie Kelli and Seago in twenty twenty, and this is I thought this
• 34:47
  was really important. Lossulalia can exist without the presence of psychopathology and can be
• 34:53
  ruled out as a form of mental disorder. So as as recent as twenty
• 34:57
  twenty, they're basically saying that speaking into does not necessarily mean somebody's mentally ill,
• 35:01
  and it also means that it can be ruled out as a kind of
• 35:06
  a type of mental disorder because it's really not. So I thought that was
• 35:08
  a pretty powerful statement kind of like endcap on this specific phenomenon in terms of
• 35:13
  like whether or not it's like a psychiatric concern or not. Yeah, that
• 35:16
  is a really important point because I think we're acknowledging that like someone who it
• 35:22
  just gets involved in the sort of religious fervor, it has no other behaviors
• 35:25
  that would otherwise indicate some kind of psychological disorder. That they then kind of
• 35:30
  they learn this thing through observation, through coaching, through feedback from from their
• 35:37
  sort of given audience. They observe and learn and then start trying to implement
• 35:40
  this thing. And so it looks a lot more like almost like a social
• 35:44
  activity, you know, like a traditional sort of religious thing, and you
• 35:49
  know, like singing to him. They they just do it, not to
• 35:51
  music and not to language either, but they sort of learn it and do
• 35:54
  it in this community setting specifically, or as we sort of played in the
• 35:59
  clip, they might be on a park bench right and just sort of be
• 36:00
  doing it next to each other. So I think it's just important to,
• 36:05
  as you said, acknowledge here that like this is not meant. I don't
• 36:08
  think it's not at all accurate to talk about this as beans sort of a
• 36:12
  mental health issue. It is very much a social, sort of club environment
• 36:16
  type issue. Yeah. Absolutely. We'll have some other interesting tidbits here to
• 36:22
  unpack. One here is that this phenomenon has been showcased in plenty of movies
• 36:25
  for scary effect. The Exorcist and the Exorcism of Emily Rose and Exorcists on
• 36:30
  Holiday and Exorcists goes to Christmas. Yeah, Exorcist goes to jail, Exorcist
• 36:37
  in the Wheel of Time or the Dial of Destiny or whatever the new Indiana
• 36:43
  Jones is. Yeah, Exorcist, Scared stupid Exorcist, Big Adventure, Big
• 36:50
  top Exorcist, Exorcists, Big Day Out, We'll stop. So they've used
• 36:55
  this idea of speaking in tongues to show how possessed the victims in these movies
• 36:59
  are, even though the real world examples are rarely linked to demonic possession but
• 37:04
  just a thing that happens, right, I mean, when you think about
• 37:07
  the phenomenon of speaking in tongues and being a spiritual, divine gift, there's
• 37:10
  not really a lot of religious leaders that want it tied to demonic possession,
• 37:14
  right, typically not. If somebody is experiencing demonic possession, then they're probably
• 37:19
  not speaking in tongues. They are possessed by some evil entity and it's something
• 37:22
  else. But if they are not, and they're speaking in gibberish and a
• 37:25
  congregation, then it's okay. So I thought that was kind of fascinating.
• 37:30
  Also. Megan Fox, famous celebrity Megan Fox, has been outspoken about speaking
• 37:34
  in tongues since she was about eight. She's kind of grown up around it.
• 37:37
  As reported seeing miracles and stuff, and she has been part of the
• 37:39
  Pentecostal church in Tennessee that would regularly engage in his practice. Machine gun Kelly,
• 37:44
  on the other hand, still can't speak rhythmically since Eminem murdered his rap
• 37:49
  career with kill shot. He's lost that poetic and rhythmic so sad, yeah,
• 37:52
  you know, the phrasing, he's got no phrasing anymore. I did
• 37:55
  see one of the things on this too, one of the things to include,
• 37:59
  I think in what I would call the interesting tidbits. So as we've
• 38:00
  talked about this idea of that being a divine gift, and so some people
• 38:06
  will specifically preach that what this means is that only people who are in the
• 38:09
  church and of the right faith and having the right beliefs will be given the
• 38:14
  gifts to speak in tongues, and they will not be able to manifest this
• 38:17
  if they do not belong to the right church and the right beliefs. And
• 38:22
  yet there was an example of someone I found on YouTube whose name is the
• 38:24
  Rabbit Atheist, who was formerly a congregation leader of some sort, who said,
• 38:30
  like, here, I'll show you this is how you do it.
• 38:32
  And he just didn't. And he said, like, I don't believe in
• 38:36
  God anymore, but I can still do this. And he said, presumably
• 38:37
  I shouldn't be able to, because the idea being that like he's lost his
• 38:42
  faith, he doesn't belong to the church, he doesn't believe in any of
• 38:45
  what is being said in that space, and yet he's able to sort of
• 38:47
  replicate exactly, and he even was able to say, like, here's an
• 38:51
  exact phrase I would commonly use that had like some very specific speech sounds and
• 38:55
  patterns, because it kind of sounds again, it sounds like words, like
• 39:00
  kind of sound. And so basically what I got from him and from some
• 39:02
  others that I was reading about in preparation for this, is that they will
• 39:07
  pick up on certain patterns of like sounds that they'll say in a specific order
• 39:12
  that do kind of sound then like they're using them as words, and they
• 39:15
  may even feel like they're using them as words. But again they couldn't tell
• 39:19
  you what they mean. Yeah, if you try and pressure and then they
• 39:21
  will probably come up with something. And then because they know how to say
• 39:22
  that thing in the same order every time, they'll probably say that they're saying
• 39:25
  that every time right, it just on the fly, they wouldn't be able
• 39:29
  to tell you because they're just making it up as they go, or they're
• 39:31
  just repeating by things that they've heard, or they might say that they can't
• 39:34
  be interpreted because of God and blah blah blah. So just whatever, there's
• 39:37
  always an excuse. Right. Here's what I'm going to kind of maybe leave
• 39:42
  all of this with is that the minions speak more language than anybody speaking in
• 39:47
  tongues, Like the actual minions say real words. We're speaking in tongues,
• 39:54
  is not that. So there's just do with that what you will. I
• 39:59
  guess, Yeah, that's fun. I enjoy that little nugget of wisdom there.
• 40:07
  Yeah, I mean I think I think probably the real the real takeaway
• 40:09
  is like, for the most part, speaking in tongues is not like a
• 40:12
  dangerous thing. It's just like kind of vocal behavior that happens within a congregation.
• 40:15
  The real the real problem is like maybe if that congregation or that church
• 40:20
  is a problem, like that's a different story, but that's not really what
• 40:22
  speaking in tongues does. It's just kind of a thing that some people do
• 40:27
  as part of like a religious practice, and it doesn't seem to really hurt
• 40:32
  anyone. It's one of those things where it worries me about the indoctrination of
• 40:36
  people who don't know any better into these circumstances where they wouldn't they wouldn't know
• 40:39
  how to tell the difference between whether the being lied to or tricked or hoodwinked
• 40:44
  into something that doesn't do anything right. And you know, arguably they might
• 40:49
  spend time and resources allocated toward this instead of something more useful when they're actually
• 40:54
  in a dire situation. Maybe there's probably a lot of the time that's not
• 40:59
  the case. They're just like, I'm just gonna speak in tongues because it's
• 41:00
  Friday or Sunday or whatever, right, and they just go to town and
• 41:04
  it's like, yeah, it's probably not really harming anybody. It's just one
• 41:06
  of those like how far do we encourage people to sort of pursue practices that
• 41:10
  we know are at the very least nothing right. Well, And that's kind
• 41:15
  of my thought as I where I see this being harmful is like that person
• 41:19
  that's in the church that is like watching everybody around them start to speak in
• 41:22
  tongues and wondering why God hasn't found them, right, I see that being
• 41:28
  a thing being like the biggest problem because I mean I've had friends that are
• 41:30
  that have had like who you know, like as an atheist myself, and
• 41:34
  I've had friends who have left churches to say that have always kind of said
• 41:37
  they were like I thought something was wrong with me because God didn't speak to
• 41:40
  me. Yeah, And I never understood what that meant. And I could
• 41:45
  see that kind of like being a side effect of this. So I think
• 41:47
  I think, you know, that's all. I think that goes back to
• 41:50
  being contextual, you know. Yeah, So I think major takeome point.
• 41:54
  Speaking in tongues is learned. Huh. It corresponds to the language that you
• 41:59
  speak natively in terms of the sounds that you're going to make, and it
• 42:01
  is otherwise a series of just sort of sounds that people do. Yeah,
• 42:07
  exactly, it's pretty much. It nailed it. And its sensitive to social
• 42:13
  rewards, I guess, yes, And like instruction, if you will,
• 42:16
  it's gonna pop up in certain circumstances, in those social situations that are going
• 42:20
  to get you a greater gain. But don't talk about it with anybody who
• 42:24
  doesn't like it, right, be hush hush about it all right. Well,
• 42:28
  we like to always recommend some things to talk about, things that have
• 42:30
  brought us joy that we think will bring you joy. And it's just just
• 42:34
  a fun thing to wait to throw at the end of our episode. And
• 42:36
  we call it appropriately enough, I think recommendations. And so we're gonna do
• 42:39
  that. But first I'd like to tell you that if you like what you
• 42:42
  heard today and would like to support us, you can do that by heading
• 42:44
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• 42:50
  we also will shout you out every episode, such as this group of lovely
• 42:53
  people, which includes Mike, m Meghan, Layla, Mike t, Justin,
• 42:58
  Kim, Joshua, Brad, Stephanie, Olivia and Brian all of you.
• 43:01
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• 43:05
  help of us. Ally appreciate it so much. And if we get you
• 43:08
  know, a few more people to sign up for this, then we'll probably
• 43:12
  set up something where I'll hang out with y'all and like a live hang out
• 43:14
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  over and do that thing. You can also support us by going to our
• 43:20
  merch store picking up some merch. You can leave us a rating and review
• 43:22
  and subscribe. If you'd like to talk to us about something that we've said
• 43:24
  about speaking in tongues and you can leave us some glowing praise and feedback,
• 43:29
  you can email us directly at info at WWDWWD podcast dot com. You can
• 43:32
  also reach out to us on all the social media platforms. I would also
• 43:36
  like to thank my team of people who helped make this happen. Thank you
• 43:38
  so much today, Shane for recording with me and putting together the notes for
• 43:43
  this discussion. Yeah, this one was fun. So the writing and fact
• 43:46
  checking our basically Shane and myself would also like to thank audio engineering and production
• 43:52
  by Justin and our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson, who've also just been
• 43:55
  amazing to work with and a really great team of people. Yes, so
• 44:00
  couldn't do it without us, without without y'all. So, yeah, you
• 44:02
  couldn't do it without us, that's right. Is there anything else that I
• 44:08
  missed or anything I need to add before we get to our recommendations? No?
• 44:12
  I think that feels good. Okay, let's recommend some things. Let's
• 44:15
  do it recommendations I am recommending for those of you who have some kind of
• 44:28
  pets that you sometimes need to transport, probably like a dog sort of thing.
• 44:32
  I was looking around for something to help transports because we've we've been in
• 44:37
  the position of having to do this and the pets are kind of messy in
• 44:38
  your car, and so I found this thing called a two major, six
• 44:43
  and one dog seat cover for your car, and I put a link to
• 44:45
  that in the description here, But essentially, it's a cover that goes over
• 44:49
  your back seat. And there's a lot of covers that exist out there,
• 44:52
  but what I like about this one in particular is it's very modular. So
• 44:57
  I can like unzip one side so that it hangs down and so you're just
• 45:00
  kind of sitting on the cover, or I can unzip it completely and take
• 45:02
  it out, so there is no cover where you're sitting and there's just to
• 45:06
  cover where the dog is. You can set it as like a hammock,
• 45:07
  so it covers the back of the seat the seat itself, and extends up
• 45:12
  to cover the back of the seats in front of it, and creates a
• 45:15
  little screen so that the animal can't get past the two front seats or up
• 45:17
  into the two front seats. This has got like little pockets to hold things
• 45:21
  you can put inside it. It's waterproof, and it's very affordable. So
• 45:24
  anyway that's a recommendation is if you're in the market for saving the back seat
• 45:29
  of your car, you can do a lot worse than the two major six
• 45:31
  and one dog seat cover that I would had the privilege of getting lately.
• 45:35
  So go check that out if you're or something like that. I love that.
• 45:38
  I'm recommending food. If you like food and you're in the Washington,
• 45:42
  DC area, there is a place called Bubbies Plant Burgers and Fizz and I
• 45:46
  was so impressed with this place that I had to eat there multiple times while
• 45:52
  I was there. Nice. It's a food lab and they have plant based
• 45:55
  and kosher certified burger It's like burgers and chicken sandwiches and stuff like that.
• 46:00
  Wow. But one of my favorite favorite vegan treats that I have not had
• 46:04
  in a very long time are the chicken wings. That are they have like
• 46:07
  the like the woodens, like the bone, like the bone end quote unquote,
• 46:10
  pone en. I love those, and I there's no place around me
• 46:15
  that has them. This place had them, and they were so good.
• 46:19
  So they're known for doing like kind of weird flavor mixtures and stuff like that,
• 46:22
  but they had just brought back that day because they have like a fried
• 46:25
  green tomato burger and stuff like that that's really good. But that day they
• 46:30
  brought back a peanut butter and jelly chicken nuggets and it was like fried chicken
• 46:35
  nuggets with a grape jelly glaze and like a peanut butter dipping sauce. And
• 46:37
  it was so good. Man, it was so good. At first,
• 46:42
  you're going, oh, but like, honestly, it's really really great.
• 46:45
  This place was so good. The jelly part doesn't sound great with chicken,
• 46:47
  but I mean i'd definitely try it. I mean, particularly peanut butter goes
• 46:52
  on everything, so I think you would dig it. I think if you
• 46:54
  like peanut butter and jelly, you'd be like, I like this. Like
• 46:57
  it's like it's it's kind of the equivalent of like how our chicken waffles works,
• 47:00
  where it's like the sweet and savory together like it's it does. It
• 47:05
  does a similar thing. There. Yeah, I got it, I got
• 47:07
  you, I got you, Okay, fair enough? Yeah, all right,
• 47:09
  Well, anything else to add or anything before we say goodbye everyone.
• 47:13
  Shane, Nope, that's all I got today. Cool. I think that's
• 47:15
  what we have to say about speaking in tongues and plant burgers and dog seat
• 47:19
  covers. So, as I said, reached out to us. We'd love
• 47:21
  to hear from everybody. Otherwise, this is Abraham and this is Shane.
• 47:23
  We're out. See. Yeah, you've been listening to Why We Do what
• 47:28
  We Do. You can learn more about this and other episodes by going to
• 47:31
  WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day