Latest / The MOOD Podcast / Pushing Boundaries in Art, Technology, and Business: a journey through Travel Photography with Jord Hammond, E014 (part 1)

Transcript

Pushing Boundaries in Art, Technology, and Business: a journey through Travel Photography with Jord Hammond, E014 (part 1) · The MOOD Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This was a conversation with Jordan Hammond, a travel photographer from the UK, having made Barley his home for the last six years.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Jordan is a big name in the travel photography space, having garnered almost a million followers on Instagram, working with some of the biggest brands in the world, successfully selling his art across a multitude of platforms, having that artwork seen by millions of people and running multiple successful online and offline workshops that are sold to thousands of budding photographers around the world.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: We spent the last year trying to sit down together to dive a bit deeper into his philosophies and opinions surrounding the photography and art industry, as well as his own motivators, artistic evolution and demons within all things photography, business, ai and social media.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: It's always refreshing to chat to Jordan because I always know that he will be honest and frank about his thoughts and opinions with things, and this conversation was extra special because in our fast paced, transient lives, it's rare we get the time or opportunity to have one-on-one, meaningful conversations with each other.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: So sit back and enjoy the slice of authenticity that Jordan brings to this episode.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: It was a pleasure for me and I hope it is for you too.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Welcome, mate.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to finally have you here Now, since we last spoke, which was probably or last saw each other a couple of months, you have turned 30, you've got a dog and another cat.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Life has changed, I guess, a lot in the last few months, or has it?
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I get less sleep and less sleep.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Tell us how the last few months have been.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: I know you've been busy.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: People who are watching this, listening to this, obviously, will probably follow you.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Anyway, tell us something that you may not have shared on social media.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: That's been going on with your life for the last few months.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: I think I share less on social media now anyway, compared to like two or three years ago.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just can't be, you know.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: I mean just sometimes I just can't be bothered to share what I'm doing every day.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: It seems, in the grand scheme of things, irrelevant and quite unimportant, and I'd rather work on stuff behind the scenes and talk about it every day, because I find the more I talk about things, the less likely I am to actually do them, like YouTube.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the Jordan Hammond YouTube channel.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah right Coming in 2025.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Something in the last few months.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: I mean nothing to take, I mean other than the, the, maybe drone products I'm working with right now, which is, you know, something I can't even speak about.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: I've mostly been working on workshops, like future workshops.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: So I went to Vietnam.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: I got back last week but been a Vietnam just counting for future workshops.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: I've got one in August and others plan for next year.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: I've been thinking about thinking more about in the last few months, more workshops.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: To be quite honest, it's probably the part of my work I enjoy the most.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: Well, that's going to be my next question.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what would be the most enjoyable part of what you do?
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know you love what you do every day, but there's got to be some.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Just like I don't want to get out bed for this.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Well, they're like sunrises yeah.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but at least you know then it's, you know it would be worth it a lot of the time.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I love the workshops.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, my favorite part of my job as well as that is probably just going out to shoot for myself, although it's hard to, you know, consider that work.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it doesn't really feel like work, it feels like this is just fun, but I guess in a sense, in the long term it is work, you know, like it will add up to something at the end of the day and also it brings opportunities in.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I've mostly just been doing the workshop stuff.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: I really enjoy that, you know, just having the chance to meet different people, many of whom have followed me for a long time.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: That's not really why I'm that interested in meeting them, but that's just nice to meet different people who have, you know, similar shared interests and are excited to explore a place for what it really is.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Instead of now we're going to go to this waterfall and then we're going to go to this beach.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: To the influencer race.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: I actually tell them most of them don't really want to shoot that anyway.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: A few people ask me oh, like, are we going to go and see a waterfall?
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: No, we're not and you need to book an extra few days if you'd like to see that.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I won't be there, yeah.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: I think it's been about five years since I went to a waterfall, so I don't plan on going back anytime soon.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: How do you differentiate the stuff that you do on workshops to other workshops?
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the question can be, can be broadened to all of your work, but you know education wise.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Specifically, it's like why are people going to buy your course?
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: My workshop.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, why would they come?
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: up Course or workshop or learning from George.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Essentially, Well, like I don't know if I can speak on behalf of other people's workshops or courses, because I'm sure there's plenty of great ones out there- Some just copy you.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: That's true.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: But I know we don't need to cut that because it's true.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: But I mean, I also looked at other courses before I made mine to get an idea of maybe how it will be structured right, Because there's plenty of courses out there that have sold particularly well and they've helped.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: They've, more importantly helped a lot of people, and so I've definitely looked at those to get some ideas.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: But why would they join my workshop or, you know, sign up to my courses?
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: Maybe just because I have my own style, I guess.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think there are other people who shoot maybe similar things to me.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: It's hard to shoot something that's particularly your own.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: But maybe I'm just the only one with a course who shoots that specific kind of thing.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: I think I have a style that people seem to enjoy.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Maybe they think I'm a relatable person.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: I think that has a lot to do with it?
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I ask myself that question.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: I'm like I don't really know how this, all this happens.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: But isn't that an important thing to try and identify?
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Because if you tap into that, I mean, you are just yourself, which is, I guess, the thing people like about you.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: You're just who you are, you don't have to try and do anything different.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: But you know, knowing those points about you that people like, because I can tell you I mean, yeah, the style, your quality of work, obviously that's got to be at the forefront.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: But if you're not watchable, relatable, like a good educator, all of the things that your character can execute, then people aren't going to buy that shit.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I'd still working on the conveying the educational points, though I find that I found that pretty difficult to begin with.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: I look back at the first course I filmed and then I wonder sometimes I'm like wow, I can't believe people signed up for this.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad I refilmed this whole thing.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: You know what was the first one Was it the travel photography.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: It's the TPA.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, the travel photography accelerator now available on.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: I actually don't know if it is available right now.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: I'd have to ask Soph.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, I've kind of handed everything to tell us who Soph is.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about Soph quickly.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: My boss, CEO.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's my partner of eight or nine years now.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: What do you want to know about her?
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: What does she do?
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: She handles the online core side of my business.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, she doesn't, of course, film the lessons, but she handles the, I would say, the business side of it.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: She's the one who would say we need to refilm this.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: We need to do a webinar for this.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: We should be talking more about this on your Instagram and your stories.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: She handles email campaigns.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: She liaises with ad teams in the US, copywriters in other countries.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: She's very busy.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: Is she enjoying the birth of not the birth, but the AI revolution that we're going through right now?
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: She must be leveraging that a lot.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, she loves it.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's so good.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: We'll talk about that later, I guess.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she is enjoying that.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: Since I introduced her to it, you know before that she was wasting so much time.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: And then it dawned on me I was like what are you doing?
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know I save your set, but I mean she still needs to hire people to help her with some of the more mundane tasks, because I often say to her you're such a smart person, why?
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: are you writing?
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: I'm not trying to say, oh, give these tasks to stupid people.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: That's not really my point, but my point is that, oh, you're such an intelligent person.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: You should really use your energy on more creative, or important tasks.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: What does she want?
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, is this something she really wants to do?
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to get to.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: I think so, yeah, I hope so yeah.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then she seems to very much enjoy it.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, we did use to laugh about it there because she studied law and Chinese.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: She got first from like a yeah, she's not stupid, she is not stupid.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: And I'm pretty sure it was like a top 10 uni, top 15 maybe in the UK, which is pretty good, much better than mine.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: And at first, you know, when we were pretty much just broke and just doing these like collab jobs and stuff, it did used to cross my mind I was like my God, I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with this.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: But no, I think I think she really enjoys it, yeah.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: We're kind of going through the same conversations at the moment with, you know, fee, my partner to her role in this?
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: If there is a role, it's difficult to find something that is, especially if you kind of, it's forced upon you not forced, but it's like introduced to you rather than you found it yourself in fees case and maybe soaps case.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Like, okay, you want to do photography, then I want to be a part of that.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: How do you figure out what, what the the enjoyment side of it is?
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Because they've got to enjoy it, otherwise they might do a good job.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: But I mean I would say we're quite fortunate that I'm quite fortunate that the safe does enjoy it.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because, like you said, she didn't she necessarily.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: I mean she chose it, it was a choice.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: I mean she didn't have to, she didn't have to join me in this venture per se.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: But I'd say also, it's constantly evolving.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: You know, there's always like new things we're working on the business kind of moves in different directions over periods of time, and so I don't know, man.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: How's it moved as a business over the last?
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Well, probably, let's, let's put COVID as a line in the sand and you know you look back.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: You mentioned your first course, so different about the rest of the business of you know, I know you've evolved a little bit as a, as an artist, in your, your style and your voice.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: But you know the business has grown or it's kind of evolved in different ways, has it.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, business is growing and and evolved in different ways.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: I like I wouldn't think of growing just in terms of, like, revenue or, you know, profit.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean we could look at before COVID as well, because that was my business then was very different to COVID as it is different to now.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: You know it's changed in each period, but before COVID I was just working client jobs, mostly tourism boards, hotels, airlines, things of that nature, which at the time I really enjoyed.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: It was interesting to meet new people, often pretty interesting people, you know, and you're visiting cool places and taking what I thought were interesting photos.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: You don't think so now.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: No, I don't.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: I much prefer my photos now.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: I find them interesting to look at.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Now, if I look at my old photos, I don't find them interesting at all.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: I'd rather not look at them.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: To be honest, I've even lost hard drives and it just doesn't phase me at all.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: I couldn't care less.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: I like I know I take those photos.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: It happens.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: I would never going to use them again.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: So, I think that's just that an artist's curse, isn't it?
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: You know, you look back on.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: I don't have exactly the same, even a year ago, better than that, and now at least.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's good, yeah, that's progress, yeah.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: I think I may have gone off the off of your question, though.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: So before COVID, I was mostly doing client work.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: Then, right before COVID, I'd say like three or four months before, I started to kind of think more about filming an online course and, yeah, I think it was January or maybe Feb 1st 2020.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: We released the photography course, covid, here a month later.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Perfect, yeah, it was perfect timing.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: Because I couldn't yeah, I didn't have any other work during COVID.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, what was that to do?
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: I couldn't travel around the world anymore and do the work, the only work I knew.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: So that was very well timed, very fortunate.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: And then we kind of just built on that through COVID.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: We did a couple of other courses.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: Like I did a business course, we did one for Instagram, then we worked on a drone course near the end of COVID and then, yes, I think soon after COVID no, it was this year yeah, I've refilmed the photography course, which was fun.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: I was glad to do that because, like I said, I look back at the other course and it kind of makes me cringe, like my old photos, right, and now I'm more into workshops and being more picky with client work.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought I was going to be pickier with client work post COVID, but the first half of this year was a complete anti-thesis to that.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: I think I'd missed client work.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: I got in my head I thought I missed client work and so I took all these different jobs and they just made me kind of miserable and tired.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: So I just thought I just don't want to do this anymore.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't, really don't.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to say I didn't enjoy working for other people, because there are people I've really enjoyed working with.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I took on way too much earlier this year and got too deeply involved with particular projects and at the time I thought, oh yeah, it'd be great to have this money and I get to go to a cool place, completely forgetting about the people I'd be working with and that they'd actually be in the field with me.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: If it's me just going alone, that's nice, because I don't mind being by myself, but when I have to work with other people, so how does your advice to budding photographers change because of that, Is it?
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: I guess it depends on what.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: Be more open minded than me.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it gets.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: It depends on what part of the journey you're on.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: If you're just starting out, then you kind of have to.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Well, there's more of an emphasis on getting whatever you can initially to you know, obviously get money, get practice, get your name out there, build yeah, yeah.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: But you have to earn that right to get to a point where you can be a bit picky.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I've changed as well, you know, since I was like deep into those kind of client projects, like I've changed as well, definitely through COVID.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, if you're just starting out, then yeah, I think you have to be open to all of those experiences and projects, why not?
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, they're only going to help you to grow and to figure out what kind of people you want to work with, what kind of projects you really want to do.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's always a learning process.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm sure there'll be other jobs in the future that I do.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: That I massively regret, and maybe even some I'd wish I'd taken.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: What are the?
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: biggest money makers Are they the client jobs?
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Because I think workshops you can.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: If you were able to scale that, that's good.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, it takes up a lot of your time, but so do client jobs.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you're able to scale online courses, that's by far the most profitable.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: And once you've made the course, it's the least work.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: You know, if you're able to delegate parts of that process to other people, which is a whole other job in itself.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: You know, being able to like that was changed, I being able to trust other people with this stuff, and it's something you've spent so much time kind of developing and like putting your whole heart and soul into it it's like, oh, can I trust other people to kind of handle this?
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I would say the online courses would definitely be the most profitable move.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: But having said that, so at workshops, you know, I mean the workshops are crazy because you're just you're actually doing something in real time that you really enjoy.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: You're just hanging out with other cool people yeah, they like to take photos and you know, just having a good time feels like a month of holiday, to be quite honest, when I'm doing workshops and then you get paid for it.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: So this is ridiculous.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Well, it must come naturally to you, then, to teach.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, you were teaching and it was your first job, wasn't it?
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Not my first job.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: My first job, I think I was a trolleyboy at Morrison's.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know why.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: That's funny For people who don't know what Morrison's is.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: It's a supermarket in the UK.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a mid-supermarket yeah.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Which I got fired from.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, why did you get fired it?
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: just wasn't very good Taking photos of the trolleys.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Actually, the reason I got fired is because I actually had, I think, seven disciplinaries before I got fired, so it wasn't like I had one chance.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: You know You're making a reprobate.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: It wasn't even that bad.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: It's ridiculous when I say it aloud, but I would just eat on the job, okay.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: I mean if you're moving like Just from the aisles, no, I just woke up to the bakery and take the suns out to the car park.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: But my mum would go shopping there and because I was working outside, she would hand me food items and I would just kind of put them in my jacket and eat them while I was biking.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: Outside yeah.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, who cares?
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Man, I was hungry.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: You're moving around like if you accumulate the number of trolleys I'm pushing, let's talk thousands of these trolleys a day.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Sometimes is there's snow in the car park.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I can't move these things.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: You know it's too Ok time to travel.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: Bye, I'm getting.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: I'm getting sod and wet.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna eat something.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: Where was this Down in the south?
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: right, yes, in the end over how can people take a cigarette break and I can't eat a sandwich?
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: How ridiculous, is that?
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, I got fired and I actually felt okay about it.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they were like have you got anything you want to say about this?
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: No, really no.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: I called my dad and he's like Nice, you didn't really want to be there anyway.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: My mom was pretty upset.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: Have you ever been fired from a photography job like on the job?
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: No does that even happen that often?
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: That would be awkward.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: No, I haven't.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: I know you're a good girl for job.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: Don't need you anymore.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, I've had I've worked photography jobs that have got quite awkward because I haven't got on with the team, but I've never been fired from one.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: No, I've had plenty of jobs where I thought I don't even want the money anymore, like I'd happily actually just send you the photos if it means you never email me again Because I just so.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: I wish you could name them.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: I will.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: That's hilarious.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: After this how do you?
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: What is, what is the end goal with photography business?
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: You know the business side of it.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: I mean we can talk about the art side of it later, because that's just an ongoing pursuit that one may never achieve, but the business side of it is.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: It.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Is it just?
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: Do you accept as a photographer?
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm a, I'm kind of a one man, but I know you have a team, but you're a one man band, as in I'm the photographer.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: There's only so much I can make of my time.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: My time's limited.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: My skills are, you know, in a certain area, like I can only scale this so much, or do you think about that a lot?
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Is that a way of you know a path towards retirement, essentially where you go?
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, I don't need to work.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Is that financial thing?
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Or is it just okay?
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: I've set this business up and 50% of it's running itself, right, which is difficult as photographer, because your hands on that's the content you're producing, right.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so so.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: So I actually kind of lost the question in that.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: So I'm sorry it's a long question.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, say, how do you, do you think about scaling the business at all, or are you comfortable in the fact that this is kind of your direction for an indefinite?
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: period of time.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think about scaling it.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, I mean by by way of opening up more workshops and, let's say, putting more money into ads for the online courses and trying to be more particular with the client jobs that I take and charging more money for them and and even if it's not necessarily bigger jobs, actually charging what I think I'm worth for jobs.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: So I'm making three eggs on a job that I maybe, a few years ago, would have been like, yeah, okay, that sounds good, don't worry about it, this is a good opportunity.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think about scaling it.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: I think that's important.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, he doesn't want to make more money.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but scaling it to a point where you don't need to necessarily be at a job, if that makes sense yeah, yeah.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Workshops is one way.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: It's great because you know you enjoy it, but that's just taking your time away from somewhere else and you've got to be there for worship.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: The online, but online mask is different because that is actually scalable because you've you create one piece, you know, okay, you refresh it and you adjust it over time.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: But you create one bit of content and you can sell it to 1000 people or a million people.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I understand what you mean so that I understand that that takes my like.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Being on workshops takes my time, but I don't mind it taking my time.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I like spending time with people who who like to take photos and I mean, if I didn't just spend my time doing things related to photography, I don't know why I'd do.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: I think I'd go insane.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: What would you do, if you like?
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Lost both your legs?
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: I'd go in a wheelchair or something I don't know I'd have the right stare.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know I'd have to.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wouldn't I switch more to online stuff?
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: Right, you'd have to pin a little bit.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: No, I couldn't.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: No, I couldn't, I'd have to find a way.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, they're planning a driver's here.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: I'm there, like I could get in their car, they could put me in a backpack and yeah take me around, I don't know yeah.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: That's a feature I hadn't considered but it's.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: I guess it's at some point you.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: You don't have to think like that at all, but it's kind of.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: I guess that ties in with the scalability or maybe scaling is the wrong phrase More like diversifying so that it's not necessarily down to you all the time and your IP and your skill set, so that you know some of the business can be left to its own devices, like an online masterclass.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it takes your time up front.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: But I kind of struggle with that thought.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Okay Well, you know how do you, how do you build a photography business that's sellable, you know, in 10 years time?
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: So then you can really just go and do what the want all the time.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: Through the art, yeah.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Through the art.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, at least for me.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's all, that's all I.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: I mean I can show.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: I care about teaching people and and helping people improve their photography, but the center of it all is the art.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: It's always that, isn't it?
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like yeah.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: If you're trying to grow a business out of your photography, how are you going to do that?
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: If your first suck, that's going to be a.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: That's going to be a real struggle.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's all about the art.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: If your art is really that good and there's also layers of subjectivity to that right, like I say, you can't quantify that, like how good somebody's art is.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, I mostly think about that, like as long as I enjoy what I'm doing and and I work on improving my craft, then I'm sure it'll figure itself out.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if it doesn't good philosophy.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Then I'll probably go back to China and teach.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, be in a wheelchair, be right.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: I hopefully not.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: Why are we talking about losing legs?
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know you got a thing for it.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Talk to me about social media.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: I know it's.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: I don't really want to stay on it too long because I think it's.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I just don't, I don't know it's, I just get bored of talking about it, to be honest.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: But for you, I think you know you obviously have a huge following built.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: That over my space of however many years, that is something that I see changing all the time, not you and your account, but social media generally.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: And I'm thinking more specifically about Instagram, and you mentioned earlier that you kind of less on it now, certainly with stories.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a conscious decision that you've you've made, or you've just kind of found yourself on it less, and less.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: I'm just okay with spending less time on it.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and maybe I have a slight bias because I can.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Did you catch that?
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: No, yeah, maybe I I'm able to spend less time on it now because I have other things going on.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: I probably should spend more time on it, right, I probably should.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Should share things every day.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: I probably should share more reels because it would be good for business.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Probably should have started YouTube so many things I should have done but I'm just okay with spending less time on it.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Feel happier, I have more time to.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: I don't feel as rushed with my work Whereas I used to Did you.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: I think it shows in the quality If I look back, because of Instagram.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I felt like.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: I had to post every day and I did.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: I think I posted.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: I think on average maybe I posted once every one and a half days, so two out of three days, I guess you could sit.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, is that right?
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: It's kind of what I do now.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: It's it Once every one and a half days.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: If that's every two and three, I can't really.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, think right now Right For about six years and I was kind of bored of it, you know.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: I don't want to post stuff every day Like I want to take my time with my art.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: It's not.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: It's a long game.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: You know, and I started to rethink my art as well.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: It used to be much more about I did just landscapes and visiting Like I wouldn't say like more popular places.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: I've definitely shot those and shared a lot of those, but I'm just starting to think about my art in a different way now, so, and that involves taking more time with it.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I post less on Instagram now.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: I'm okay with it.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: I don't particularly.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: I'm very grateful for the followers I have.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: I don't care if people decide everyone follow me.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: It doesn't, doesn't bother me at all.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: I don't care if my likes go down.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: I just couldn't care less about that.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: That's not important.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: What?
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: How do you think differently about your art?
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: You mentioned that.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Can you elaborate on that a little bit more?
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: What's different in your process?
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Well, I think I'm just starting to think about whenever the end of my life in art may be so, and by that I mean I don't have any intention of stopping and I will do this until I, you know, lose your legs.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, I don't know, until they like incinerate my body and want not bury me in the ground.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: I don't care, whatever let's say, until the day I die like I will do this.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: But what do I want my body or work to look like by the end of it?
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: Or yeah right.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: So instead of just I can't need to post every day, post, post, post, post, post needs to needs to be a cool photo that people are going to like and share, and then I'm going to build a following from it and do all these things.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: No like, yeah, just what's that body of what are going to look like?
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: What's it going to mean to me, what's it going to represent those kinds of things?
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Really, really important, and I think I'm definitely in a more fortunate position where I can take the time to to choose that direction.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: But the goal is to build a legacy, essentially.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, build so when you are on your deathbed, whatever that means, you can look back and a be proud of it yourself, but also have the respect and reverence from the industry and the community.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you make money in the meantime, you build a living off it.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: That's the dream.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, respect and reverence from the industry wouldn't be a big one for me.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't really care about the way people feel about my work, maybe whether they like it or not.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: If it makes an impact on them, then sure that's great.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: But whether I have people's respect is not like a big one.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe, but it's like yeah, I think like you said.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: How do I feel about it?
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Like am I proud of what I did and how I spent my time?
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't mean care, but I definitely don't give a s*** about what people think.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: But if, if I have a few people that like my stuff and want to follow it in terms of the body work of like, amazing, what privilege.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: What I mean is, like, you know, there are some artists who died 50 years ago but we still look at their work and that's that's A, because they built an amazing body of work but they were able to share it with the world, gain kind of maybe respect is the wrong word but a status within the industry that, okay, these guys, this is a special artist.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Now, whether people like there may be a small proportion of people that actually like the work, which actually shouldn't matter, but it's having that that cemented place in the industry that will stand the test of time, right, it's having that body of work that you're proud of but also can garner inspiration.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: I think that's, that's, that's key and that's really what I mean by reverence, like having having the industry like inspired by you and your work.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, can it inspire people with it?
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Is it a kind of timestamp on that period of history as well?
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: You know, say, say before, a lot of things I've seen like I'm not actually taking a dig at landscapes this is not my point but a lot of the things I've seen were landscapes of places that everyone in there and then has been, and you could find a million photos of that place and it's, you know, like no one's going to care about that in the future.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: It's not going to be.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: No one's going to remember that stuff.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: I think that's where AI and social media is not impactful.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: No, it's not meaningful.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: It's not in many ways, in my opinion.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: There's nothing to it as having this conversation with Blair Sugerman.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: I know you've met Blair, I think, in Hong Kong.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: I haven't.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: We have talked on Twitter Spaces.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: He's a great guy.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's cool.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: We align very much in a lot of things, especially kind of the approach to photography, you know, given the social media part of this, given this just the saturated market with it on social media but also just in photography in general, like finding that uniqueness and that voice and that the that actually means something, that actually, hey, he's saying telling a story Does that mean?
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: But having a narrative or a meaning or impact across one image or a series of images or a complete body of work.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: I think that is becoming harder and harder to do.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: But even more valuable and that's maybe we segue into AI now.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: But AI, I think, will help us with that because all of the homogenous that you see online all the time, a lot of that's going to be or can be replicated by AI in the future, if not already.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: But the real stories and the real connections and the real moments and the real perspectives on whatever won't be able to be replicated as easily, but there'll be less and less people doing it right.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: They'll kind of separate the week from the chat.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think it will.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: You mentioned AI.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: How do you feel about it?
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: I feel better than I used to.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: I think that my style of photography is maybe better place than maybe landscapes or product photographers or just headshot photographers or something like that.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: In one way, I think my work relies on the stories, human connection and the actual physical experiences of either me or the subjects or the type of people that I'm with, which could be replicated on an aesthetic level but could never ever be replicated on a literal level, right.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: So I think the more of that type of work gets seen and gets done well, that I think it becomes more and more valuable, the more AI can kind of stamp its mark on the photography world.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: That's my opinion, whereas six months ago I was like God, is this the right industry to be pursuing?
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: But what industry is not going to be impacted heavily by AI?
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know All industries will be massively.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: I'm probably like white collar work first, yeah, yeah, like, imagine, like I don't know, like a computer scientist or something you know four years at university, maybe four.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know how much it would cost for that degree in the UK or the States, but if we said the UK, the US maybe, I don't know is it what?
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Is it a year US?
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: you're talking maybe probably 30, 40,000 a year.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Is that really?
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: UK, I guess five to 10.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: So they say $160,000 for that degree, four years of somebody's time and then potentially a lifetime of work in that field, Whereas a machine in maybe now I don't really know the full potential of AI, I don't know if anyone does.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: But I don't know if I have an up-to-date view on its potential right Like as of right now.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: But when a machine could do that a fraction of the cost, instantly and probably better, then does that not become a waste of time for the person?
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Would their energy and their life be better spent doing something else?
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: Then where do people go from that?
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Do they try and find?
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: You know, you're just going to end up the way it's going to end up is just dystopian society, where we're all, we can't do any jobs right, so we just get handouts from the government.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: That's where art is going to have its place.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: Art is maybe not photography, right?
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone else is fine.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're fine.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: That being said, I just looked at Adobe Express beta version.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: What's that it's this new.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: It's basically Photoshop on steroids.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: It's you know, click of a button and basically anything you want, whether it's a removal additives, just cleaning up.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: A click of a button, just things like that, that's cool.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: I mean oh wait, is that Adobe?
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Is it Adobe Express?
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Is it not Photoshop?
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: The.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: AI generative fill.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Is that what you're talking about?
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a new Photoshop beta.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: I think Adobe Express is.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I probably couldn't express, I'm not sure, I've played around with the Photoshop AI one.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Though it was pretty, I didn't find it to be that great.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Oh really, no, not really there was any beta, so I guess it's a matter of time, like all of this.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Well, it's only a bit, but I didn't find it great.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Maybe things can be true.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: At the same time, I see some reels they're people posting.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: They're like oh, will AI replace photography?
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: And it's like they edit this file and it's like certainly not if that's the image.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Well, also like that's the wrong question to be asking, because it already is a part of photography and has been for so long.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: It's just an art form.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: It's just now.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly it's, and you I did.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: I actually did a YouTube video on this.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: It's AI doesn't have a place within photography.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: It maybe has a place alongside it.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: I mean an AI image is not a photograph.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Right, it's an image.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: It's like a graphic design image versus it's like a whatever you 3D gen image versus a photograph.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, there's still art forms.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: I guess, could you even compare it to like having a film camera and now like an R5 or a?
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: San Diego one.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, yeah, I mean that completely manual process versus the computer does a lot of the work for you, Not going to say most but yeah, I don't know, I guess.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: I guess it will see.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to pull up Adobe Express here, but I feel you got a text.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, Firefly is the other Adobe one right.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Firefly that's.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: This is the AI.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Like like, kind of like mid-journey.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: No, that wasn't what I meant, I think.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: I'll find it later.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen the Firefly, one, we'll say, quite unimpressed.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Also, there's just something to.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: There's so much just coming out all the time.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: It's like I just can't keep up, and that's you know.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Going back to social media, and the original point is what we're talking.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: It's like if, depending on how you want to use Instagram and social media, like, then then figure out what you want to do with it.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Is it a business tool that you want to grow an audience and essentially monetize or get opportunities from, then cool.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: Is it a platform to share art, which is how you use it, then that's different.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: Your strategy is completely different, right?
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of people get confused with those things.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Like they don't really know themselves, like, oh, I'm not, I'm not getting this amount of likes, or I can't seem to be able to grow my followers, but then you're asking me about their job.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love my job and I never want to quit.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: So well, why do you care about the Instagram stuff then?
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Like it sure has no impact like bearing on your life whatsoever, I guess people want to be liked.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: There's this innate, even by just a number, because most of the likes of people you never meet.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Especially if you're at a level where you are right.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: 850,000 followers, I imagine.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Most of the comments on your posts.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: You don't know who they are Maybe you do Not personally, no, no.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: And you probably never will Like.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: There's only a certain number of people.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: You can meet Apparently.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: There's only, yeah, 150 people you'll ever meet in your life that you actually know, Really 150.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently I'm about 5% of the way there.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: I was going to say I'm about 10 in.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm okay with it.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, if I got down about my likes, I'd be chronically depressed, considering, let's say, when I had 150,000 followers, I'd get like 30,000 likes.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah 40,000, sometimes maybe 50, 60.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the other day I posted something and got I don't know 4, 5k with 850.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I mean I'm basically done for, but it doesn't care, it doesn't matter to me, it gives a f***, but it depends.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: I really like the art, Like I love these photos Much more than I did the stuff I posted when I got way more likes.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: But then why do you share them?
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: Because I love them.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you can still love them without sharing them.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: Sorry, you can still love them without sharing them.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, why not?
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: I mean because I want to.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: This is why I'm working on right now.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: I don't so to get feedback?
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: No, not really.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: I didn't really look for feedback.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: Maybe I should, but I don't often look for feedback.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: I don't if someone you know.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: Maybe sometimes I'll send my photos to my friends, well, just to show them what I'm up to and make them jealous.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: But I'm doing something cool, you know.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: If they're like working on a job they hate, and I'm like, yeah, this man, this is so much fun, and they're like, oh, like, I probably changed the shadows here, yeah, okay, whatever, I don't really care about people's thoughts on my edits.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: Maybe this, this, maybe the style of which am I approaching that subject would be a more interesting and valuable comment, but most comments are usually to do with the edits, aren't they?
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe you could have approached the shoot in a different way, and yeah, and gone down this route and yeah, that's what I love about the story side of a photo or a project like your eGen stuff.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: If you're able to, I guess show the I mean BTS is one thing, but show kind of a packaged story or through a workshop or video online masterclass, that's so much more value Because social media you just see one image and like well, god knows what went into getting that image.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: It could have been a quick snap in the moment or it could have been three days of waiting for perfect light sawing out a subject, whatever it is, and I guess that's kind of the mystery of social media, but it's for me it's, it's derogatory.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: It's not a good thing because, especially as photographers, because people just think they think what they think about a photo, right.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fine.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know how it's.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Does lander.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I'm, I'm definitely with you.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: I mean I use social media to figure out what photos are more popular than others, but I don't think you can.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: I'd learned that you you can't because it depends so much on the algorithm.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: Well, who are you allowing to decide with?
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry, you said.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: You said which of your photos are more.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: Well, some, some photos will get more likes and comments and engagement than other photos right.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: So I always have my phone.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: No one can say to me, oh, I prefer this photo.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: And I go oh yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: So do I I changed my mind.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: I will always have like this is my favorite photo.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: I know what went into.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: This is my favorite, whatever, yeah, but it's.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: I find it very interesting to figure out.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, what, what to the general?
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: What do my audience think about this photo compared to this photo?
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it depends.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: He's about Feedback value, right?
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like if it was just the general public.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know but it's just a general public and no one would give a Exactly.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: If it was photographers you respected, then that would.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: That would, for me, be more important, for sure, right, but no, I think back to your question about like, why do I share stuff?
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: I still enjoy sharing stuff.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: Like, I only started sharing stuff on Instagram because I enjoyed sharing my heart.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: It wasn't for any other reason.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: I didn't plan on making a career out of it, but it's interesting.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just want to share this stuff.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: I'm working on it right now because I think it's cool and I enjoyed the process.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: No-transcript.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but why do you still need to share, Right?
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: Why do you?
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: There's got to be something you want to have back from the process of sharing, Because you could just share it on your wall or your computer screen.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: There's an element of having it with out there with your audience to get something back.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Is it a dopamine?
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: Is it like?
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they liked it, they still like me.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: No, no, it's not.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: It's really not.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: I'll be honest, actually, because when it's flunk it does kind of pull me off.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Sometimes, maybe once every three or four months, that will happen, where I'm like, oh, I kind of work really hard on this and that gives a yeah, that's kind of a weird feeling, but it subsides within half an hour and I'm okay.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: I go get a beer and realize everything's fine.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: But I don't know, maybe I still share stuff as well because, well, then people know you still exist and maybe you'll get hit up for jobs, maybe you'll have these yeah, there's still opportunities come from my social media by sharing work.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: But I don't think that's the main reason for me.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: I just Maybe, as a habit, because I've already shared stuff for such a long time, maybe I feel in some way obliged to continue doing it, which I don't mind, because now I do it, like I said, on a less intense schedule, on a schedule that kind of suits me, so it doesn't frustrate me anymore, or which is so important right Doing, being able to find a comfortable rhythm that you enjoy it, because otherwise you're just going to resent it.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: The more you feel like you have to do something or that you just doing it, so often you just lose.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: You know, that's my concern with anything, it's right.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: Well, you have a passion.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: Well, how lucky you'd have a passion.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: Not many people have a specific passion.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: We're very fortunate that we have that Well that you can make a living from.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: And that you can make a living from.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: But if you take maybe a wrong step here or there and you end up doing it so much, you lose the love for it.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: Right, and that's why I love your business model, because it's You've diversified enough.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: Where you can Okay, there are some client jobs in there that, okay, my priority is to get the money, essentially, if I can get some cool shots from it amazing.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: But now I can do stuff that I really want to do my passion projects, my workshops, my masterclasses and all the other stuff in between.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: That's such a nice place to be, I'm sure.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: I enjoy the diversity of it for sure.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: I get too bored if I'm just doing one thing.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I need the diversity in my work.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: It keeps me sane, and I think it probably keeps me sane too, because it means I get out of the house and kind of just leave it to our own devices.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: So yeah, You're basically doing all the stuff you want to do, and we'll maybe talk about stuff that you want to do in the future, but for a beginner it's like or beginner, shall we say.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: In the business side of it it's like where do I focus my time?
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: What is my priority list?
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: Is it social media?
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: Is it Instagram?
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: Well, what are your priorities?
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I guess where you are financially is kind of important.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because if you're broke, well, yeah you need to get it.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: You've got to make money, yeah, but then, yeah, how do you make money these days?
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: Or making money these days with photography is arguably more difficult if you don't have a social media following or good enough social media following.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: Is that true?
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think so.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, why do you need a social media following for it?
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: Why would you think that you need a social media following to make money from photography?
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: Because, all I can think of is you want to do a sponsored post?
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know If I'm a business and I've got a selection of I don't know 10 photographers.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Let's say I'm just putting things.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, there's 10 photographers here.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: Which ones am I going to choose?
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, I've got a.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Let's say they're all kind of good enough in terms of quality.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I like, I kind of like that, like that, like that.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, bring it down to five.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: You've got five photographers there.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: One's got 100,000 followers on Instagram, one's got 70, 40, 10, 500.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: Right, I'm probably going to go with the one that's got 100,000, because I know that my personal opinion, my subjective opinion of his or her work is not, should not be the only deciding factor.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: It should be Does it align with, obviously, the brand, does it align with our narrative?
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: But also, are they popular enough where 100 other thousand people like their work?
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: So, if 100,000 other people like their work, I know that what we're going to do with this person is going to be popular, it's going to be liked.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: So it's kind of like this established level.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: But a million people could enjoy the person who has 500 followers, but he just doesn't play the game.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: I totally agree, but you don't know that If you're deciding on these people and your money's on the line, it's a quick decision.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I know plenty of people with.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: I say plenty of people.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: I don't know them, but there are a lot of people with hundreds of thousands of followers.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: You take photos.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, I see them every day.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: Right, I was one of them.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure about that.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: No, I think I was.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: In your opinion.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe not at the time in that period on Instagram, but it wasn't like great stuff If I look at it.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: If I posted that now, I think I started at a good time.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: What do you post more now on Twitter?
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I spend more time on Twitter.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I post more there.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: I mean especially recently, just with the Vietnam trip and just a few other things going on, I haven't had as much time.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: I'm probably making excuses.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: I think I have enough time to edit and share more things, but I spend more time on Twitter.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I quite enjoy that.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: Because of the NFT world.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, just for the memes.
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: The culture there I find to be.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, besides the scammers and all that I don't know, I just enjoy it there.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: I kind of like the vibe.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: There's a great vibe on Twitter In the photography community.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: It's extremely buoyant and positive.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: I don't see much of the issues that the rest of Twitter have in terms of opinionated people coming on and shooting the shit and talking absolute.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's probably some I don't spend that much time on Twitter.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: I need to spend more time on it because I do enjoy it and I want to get more into the NFT space.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: I don't see that, am I?
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: wrong.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: I think you have to sift through the Right.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: If you actually spend more time there, then you'll inevitably spend more time kind of weeding out the, and I need maybe following people that you kind of enjoy following for the things they talk about and the art they share.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: I mean plenty.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: I'm sure there are plenty of people there that are kind of just totally and like, but I guess that's just life.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: I probably do the same thing there too, especially on spaces, like when I was hosting them.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't know, I just quite enjoy it over there.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: I think it is a completely different landscape Now.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: We're kind of in a bear market.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: It's definitely a lot quieter than it used to be in 2021, when everyone was making like a bunch of money.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: What are the?
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: positives from it it gets.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Maybe it gets rid of some of the part timers.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so Was.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: Joey L put at chemotherapy for Twitter.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's dark.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: Sure yeah.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: We'd now people that Harry Pope he told me he used to spend like 12 hours a day on Twitter Did he really.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: That's what he said.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: When we had him on the show he was yeah.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: When he was trying to get or trying to be successful in the NFT world, he was on spaces in the middle of the night and spending hours and hours a day.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: Is that how you would recommend growing your profile?
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't have to spend time there.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: I don't think you need to spend 12 hours a day there.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: I think you're probably better spending nine hours on your heart and three on there.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: And well, what does that 12 hours look like?
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Is it 12 hours well spent?
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: Is it 12 hours maybe in a space where you're co-hosting?
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: And it's funny, I'm actually.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: I love Harry.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: He's doing his spaces right, and he would be doing a space with another co-host and he'd be so silent.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: There'd be hundreds of people in these rooms and they'd go oh, like Harry, what do you think?
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: And he's like sorry, I didn't hear that.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: I was just eating my dinner and I used to just listen on my bike rides, like out to sunset or something.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: I'd get a shoot or something and I'd hear that that sounds like Harry.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: No, he was definitely putting in the work though.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he was.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: It takes a lot of energy to spend that amount of time on spaces and it depends on the nature of the space.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: Is it like a particularly riveting conversation or is it one of those spaces where people come up and they share their story?
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: I can't fucking listen to that.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: For nine, 10 hours, yeah.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it depends what you're using it for right.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I suppose I think I mostly just grew my page on Twitter just through sharing my art.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: That was pretty much it, that's interesting.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was mostly it.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure I did some posts near the beginning that were they were quite like centered around engagement farming.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: I would say I would post one of my photos and they'd be like share your green photo below.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: Say cringe, but you know like but you get hundreds of comments back then and you grow like a few thousand followers a day, sometimes just by posting that.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I stopped doing that.
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: I think I read maybe I read a tweet where someone was like I'm so sick of these.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: I thought yeah I should stop.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: So I stopped and then I just continued sharing my art and I don't know, just being myself.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: I'm still pretty quiet on Twitter, though I would say I'm not particularly vocal about my I don't know my thoughts on like AI, or I don't think I've even told my story.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: Do you want to tell it as?
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: per a thread.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: You know like maybe I talk about it in spaces but I haven't Like it's not there as a pin tweet or something that people actually read about.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I find that cringy as well, it's like, but it's part of marking.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: And it's.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: I was told about this and Matt, you need to, you need to do a.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: I did a bio video with um, with Harry.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Remember when we went out to that morning to um, it was near opened.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: Yep, Trying to, that was kind of the whole idea is like, well, you know, and then then these marketing people are like you need to narrate over it and tell your story.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: It's like really no, I don't, I don't.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: I like how long?
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: If people ask me and they want to know, that's a bit different, um, but I guess that is a necessary evil If you you know you need to put yourself out there, but then why don't we do that?
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: You know why.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: Why is it that we don't do that?
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: Feels a little bit conceited, a little bit arrogant, like, oh, you know, I assume you care so much about me, even though you've never met me.
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you about my story.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: Right, but then we're just making it about ourselves.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like what I mean?
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: I'm sure people are interested to some degree to to learn a bit more about you, especially if you know we're talking about like crypto Twitter or like, more more specifically, like the NFT side of like Twitter.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: Um, if people are going to invest in your work, then I'm sure they'd like to learn more about you.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: Good point, unless you are a household name.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: Who has worked for Magnum and you don't even have a Twitter account.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: Um, I don't.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's a bad thing to share more about yourself and your story If it's done in a objective way.
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the way you do it.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: It's obviously important.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: Not like yeah, I'm a world class.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: Like blah, blah, shut up.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: No, you're not.
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: Um, how, how talk to me about NFTs.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: I mean it's obviously a big part of your, the art that you pretty.
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: You know we talk about art.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: I mean I see NFTs as as okay, it's a can be a moneymaker, um, but you know, it's the essence, is the art, which I think is amazing.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: Especially in today's, today's world, where everything's scattered social media here, business opportunities here, influences there.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: You know the NFT world is all, albeit convoluted and maybe volatile, I don't know.
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: Uh, how do you kind of see it moving forward?
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: Is that you investing a lot into that, you know, with your time and your art, because you think it's such an important part of your future?
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: Well, I see it more so as a an extension of what I really do.
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: So I diversified into online courses, then you diversified into workshops and there's also NFTs.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: I honestly don't know the future of it.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: I don't think I'm remotely smart enough to comment on that.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: Just to be upfront, I would hate to take a stab at that because I just don't know.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: As far as I'm involved, it's like well, what have I really done with NFTs?
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: All I've really done is immortalized certain pieces of my art on the Ethereum blockchain and made it so that when somebody purchases that particular piece, or maybe one of the editions, it's immutable proof that they own that.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's really as far as I've gone.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: It's not necessarily that I've integrated all these new and interesting technologies which some people have.
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: Give me an example.
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: Let me think it could be like a burn mechanic or something where, let's say, you release a set of editions.
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's like an open edition for 24 hours, so there's no cap for 24 hours.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: Maybe you tell people okay, if you buy six of these editions, you'll be able to keep one of them, and there'll be five burn events once a week from next Monday.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: So Monday you can burn one of them for another piece.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: The following week you can burn the next one for another bit, and so on.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: That just being one example.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: I haven't done anything like that.
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I've been particularly explorative with them and the technological capabilities there, but maybe that's just a testament to who I am just a simple man.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: Well, you probably haven't had to because, from what I can see, you've been pretty successful in the NFT space and you've sold everything you've put out there, haven't you?
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: All Bar One Piece, which has been there, I think, since November 2021.
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: It is a drone shot of, you know, Bungan Island in Sambawa.
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: Oh, that hasn't sold.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: I would have thought that'd be really popular.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: I mean me too.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: I guess I'd hoped it would have, but it didn't.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: I also didn't really care if it doesn't.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: I mean I could just burn it or delist it, whatever.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: But I don't know.
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: I obviously don't care about it being there, I mean for sales.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: That's great.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: It's a fellow I love.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: I'd be grateful to have someone collect it, but if no one wants to, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: Do you have a relationship with your collectors?
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, apart from just the transactional nature of it, do you speak to them?
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: Do you spend?
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, some of them.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: Have you met any of them?
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have.
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, actually the guy who collected, who was my first collector, who I was just talking to him over, dm I think.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, let's be quite honest, I think I noticed he was a collector of photography and so I probably shamelessly tried to make some kind of shitty conversation with him by DM you know that always feels like awkward.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: People say, oh, you should know where we collect this.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, it feels so sleazy, you know, because in my head I'm like, oh well, why else would I be getting in touch with you?
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: I don't want to ask you how your days going.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: Necessarily, I don't even know who you are, but it seems like you collect art and enjoy it.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: So maybe we can you know, if we get on and you like my work, maybe we can work something out.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: But anyway, I reached out to this guy and we got chatting a bit and there was one point where he sent me I don't know why he sent me the like nine of my photos.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: He sent me a bunch of my shots and was like, oh, I think these would, these would probably sell.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: And I think I read his message as I would buy these nine.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: I don't know why.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: I thought that's what it said, because I remember sharing the text to Sof after I got excited and she was like no, it definitely doesn't say that Like, he's just, he's just giving you some recommendations to chill out.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: And he said, oh, like I said, oh, which of these are there any in particular from this selection that you really enjoy?
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: And he like picked one in particular which is like the, the old guy that works in that, the radio center in in Tokyo, oh yeah, and oh, can I remember the name of the district?
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: That's, yeah, shibuya.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: No, oh, that's kind of frustrating, I can't remember it.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: But anyway, he said yeah, that one in particular.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: And I think I just asked him like in some roundabout way.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh, do you want it?
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: Like you want to do this or what?
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he said yeah.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: He said what do you want for it?
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: And I just kind of gave him my price.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: I was looking back it's just ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous price, ridiculous.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: I didn't really look no, oh, a lot.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay, but I mean I think it's a great shot and he was also very happy with it.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: Say, I'm sure he didn't particularly care at all.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: Okay, for what I requested and it seemed to be in some way aligned with other people that were selling for for definitely like higher figures at that time.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I've met him.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: He's awesome.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: I met him in London just for just for like breakfast one day and I also delivered the print to him.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: Cool.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: Like at the coffee shop, which is all quick, it's just huge, oh, framed.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: I didn't have it framed.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, I did, I see, but it just in this carrying this big tube around London.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I met him.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: I've met a couple of us at NFT, nyc last year, which was just that was such a great event, nyc, nft, nyc, nyc yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, sprite, I met you.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: That's good, but yeah.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: So I've met a couple of them.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: I've had conversations with more than I've met, but I'd say majority of them no.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: We don't really converse at any length.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: How do you separate them from the scammers?
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've had messages similar to that like oh, you know, I've seen these five photos and they're like the most of my photos from five years ago.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: That's a red flag, yeah.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: Like no, this is I mean I, I, I, if I'm not mistaken, I've seen these five photos and I, if they had worded it a bit differently and chosen some of my more recent stuff, then I would have been a bit.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: I would have been like oh okay, you know, let's go down the rabbit hole of chatting about this.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: But then they, you know they wanted me to sign up to I kind of remember what it's called some random.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: Did you send it to me?
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: Did I send it to you?
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: Did you send me the message that you'd received?
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: No, have we spoken about this?
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: No, okay, because I've received the exact same thing from like a bunch of different people yeah, a lot of people have.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: They're like oh, what do you think of this?
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: Like someone wants to cam, for example, and if we have the people, they were all excited.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: You know like, oh, they want to pay this much for my phone.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: I just immediately I'm like that's bullsh**.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: No, they don't.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they've sent you a link to a platform that doesn't even exist.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if you Google that like I would just Google the platform in two seconds.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: It's like it's not even on Google search.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's a fake website.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: You'll just connect your wallet, they'll drain your account.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: And that's it.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so, but I mean, I think I've spent enough time in this space over the past two years to understand, like that, that's not how it works.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: Rarely are people just going to reach out to you like that and some random yeah You've never heard of.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: On Instagram as well, right?
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: then they retire.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: They retire on Instagram.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was in yeah, that's also a red flag.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: That doesn't mean these yeah, I'll pay $50,000 for them.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: What?
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: why you?
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: like are you high?
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just ridiculous.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: So to me it's obvious anyway, I think, if anyone but it price you on Instagram to ask to buy your NFTs, that's just weird.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: I think I need to.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: The gram abandoned their NFT the thing they had gonna with NFTs because they don't remember they had an NFT, yeah, I like section on your profile, yeah, where you could kind of mint to Instagram.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: I can't remember if it was on polygon or what and you'd get that glow around the photo, whatever it was, yeah.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they go to that.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: Oh, did they?
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I had a couple of friends who did the launch for it with like photography and FT's and I mean they sold out, like you know, instantly.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: But I don't know what happened to that.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: I haven't checked their profile since they go rid of it, so I guess that's just gone now forever.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: That's kind of embarrassing for them.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: Fit for Instagram.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: No, not my friends, god.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: I don't want to Change you all the time.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what is it?
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: I feel like NFTs are kind of the most Exciting part of your your, I guess artistic journey at the moment, is it?
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: I feel like there's a buzz around it, or am I?
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: no, not right.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: It doesn't feel like there's a buzz right now because of the market.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're also the number of people that are kind of active in that space, like I've noticed, drop off dramatically Really.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: Ah, because sales have dried up.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: I couldn't even tell you, like the you know the sales figures for, like photography and FT's right now, but like barely anyone's really meant in the work A lot of people left this space.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: I think there's less, yeah, there's just like the sales going on.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: So you know there's less reason for a lot of people to spend their time there as well.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: Let's still enjoy it.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: They, you know, like I, I'm fortunate to have other things going on and NFTs was never a Make or break for me.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of people who joined in 2021.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: It was a very different space.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: Honestly, in some ways, I kind of prefer it now.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: Now it's a little bit quieter and but the you know the true G's have stuck around, but now a lot of people back then in 21 were like, oh, I got my full-time NFT artists, like I really depend on these sales.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: I honestly feel of that.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: It's just a very irresponsible, yeah, kind of mindset for for some of these people to have.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: So you're really just depending on other people to like, buy your work and that's your only source of Income.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: Say that is crazy.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: It was just stupid.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it is.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: It's kind of ignorant.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: What would you advise, then, to people, beginner photographers or people who don't really know the NFT world is?
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: Is there a specific kind of?
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: Is this a good time to be learning about it?
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: I guess building art that you're proud of so that, hopefully, when the cycle comes back around, you, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: You don't have to spend 12 hours a day like Harry on there, right, but you can share your art.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: You can join like photography discord communities and and network with people there.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be, you know, you can you can share your stories.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: You can share threads about your art, about your process.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: There are plenty of things you can do that you know.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: As we said earlier, they're not necessarily things we do or have done, but a lot of people seem to enjoy about reading them.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: And, yeah, I think if you're just careful with the time you spend there and intentional with the time you spend there, I think is perhaps the one I'm looking for, then, yeah, I think it's a great idea.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of great people to meet there.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: Some of the people I met NFT NYC last year were that was some of the most fun I've ever had.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Because you were higher all the time.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: I had to give it a rest after a couple of days.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: I remember the first day I got there were you on us.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, we just landed off a 15 hour flight and I I knew you and this was fiending for it man with the.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: We checked in at the hotel and he's like he's looking around like a bloodhound.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: You know they sniffing that out.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we went in smokes and good God, send me west times.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we just went for a walk, to be honest.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just walk from my hotel to Times Square.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah and every block we we went, they got busier and busier and we would have to, we kind of like grab each other and be like we show this the right thing today.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: And on every corner now there's a marijuana shop.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there is, but no, honestly, my time there.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: They had nothing really to do with the weed, it was actually just the people I met hanging out with other artists, talking about meeting the people that had collected your art, even if they hadn't collected your art.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: Just very interesting to hear their perspective on the space, and the other enjoyed them.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, you just talking about shit you really enjoy, yeah, so yeah, it's great.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: That's what it's all about.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah is the sharing and but, the discussions and the people you meet from the Showing that up, whether it's in the digital world or it's in the physical world.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, we've talked about this before, but how amazing would it be just to have your own gallery right.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: You know, imagine if it didn't cost you any money and you can just go.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: Here's a his gallery.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's always the killer, right.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh, this, is this gonna make any money?
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: Or at least If you could just cover the costs, I'd be happy with that.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what are the costs renting the building?
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: Renting the building like to see some stuff utilities.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: What do you need stuff for?
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: Well, you're not gonna be there all the time, so close the door and lock it and then when you want to go back yeah, I guess, yeah, yeah, it's okay, so let's do it.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: Did you enjoy the NFT NYC then?
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: I did.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: I didn't have much time, I think I was just there for the day before flying out again.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I loved it.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: Looking back, I mean, it's only a year ago it feels longer, but I knew nothing about NFTs.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: Do you know?
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know more.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, I know I know a lot more.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: I know enough that it excites me.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: I haven't Intentional was a really good word to use, because I think you have to be intentional with everything you do, otherwise you're just gonna be a scatter brain, right?
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: You try to do too many things at once.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: But with NFTs, I think Now I'm in a place where I can be so much more intentional with it.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, you know, whenever the time is right to, I think, when I kind of finish the edits on the recent bodies of work, it's like you know, maybe wait for the market.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: I've got to do, I've got to do the work in building audience, connecting with people and doing that kind of that groundwork first.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: But, yeah, my knowledge of cryptocurrency and NFT specifically has has Exponentially risen, so I feel way more comfortable to go.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm in a good place to at least pursue this now.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I want it to be a part of a part of the business model.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it should be, whether it's a small part or a big part.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: I think it's a great thing.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: I think NFTs are a great thing.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I really do, especially the kind of opportunities it provides to Like all artists.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: I guess you know, like, if you were to think about it, let's look back in the past and let's say there was a photographer who Enjoyed photographing insects right and what was their outlet necessarily like if you look back 20 years?
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: Like, how could they market their work To a global on a global scale?
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, couldn't almost impossible.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like they would probably sell postcards of insects, yeah, or maybe prints to insect a fischlunders, whereas now, like you, have this global market that you can show your work to in an instant and you're able to build your audience there.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I just say it's fucking sick.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so cool.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just Open the doors.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to so many, so many so many crevice, yeah, and and not just photography, I think that's all we've touched on but so many like art forms that that it's kind of at least it's open my eyes to as well, and people that have been able to like Honestly make fortunes from Good for them.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we should be celebrating that, just like maybe AI with mid-journey, that it's allowing the, the creative people or people with the creative spark, to who may not be attracted to things like photography or graphic design or Drawing or sketching or paint, whatever it is.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: You know, on, this mid-journey thing is kind of for me, yeah, we can argue about that.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: The the essence of it, and then I guess that hey, even code generated art.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah you ever looked at art blocks?
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: I think so.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, man, like that.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: Like imagine thinking about the conversation of what is art.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: I think has changed so much in in the last maybe I don't know, I just kept a makeup in number of years now, last decade, yeah.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: But like looking at code generated art, where where someone will build a piece of code that will, that will literally generate these, this different number of certain amount of outputs.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: That's so crazy.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my mind, yes.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just leave it to them.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I tried buy some of it because I think it looks cool.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that's about as far as I go with that.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: That's the end of part one.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed it.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: Join us next week for part two, when we'll be diving a little bit deeper into George's inspirations, his evolution with his own style and voice and His opinions on the effects of AI in the photography industry.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: So stay tuned for part two next week.