Latest / FUTURE OF XYZ / Future of Contemporary Art | Nancy Spector | S8 E18 (175th episode)
Transcript
- 00:00:04:00 - 00:00:30:16 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to the 175th episode of Future of XYZ. It's a pretty huge milestone. It also happens to be season eight, episode 18. And we have a very special guest talking about the future of contemporary art, Nancy Spector, thank you so much for joining us on Future of XYZ for this milestone episode. 00:00:30:18 - 00:00:33:21 Speaker 2 Thanks. Happy to be here. 00:00:33:23 - 00:01:02:20 Speaker 1 Nancy, you spent 30 plus years or almost 30 years as the chief curator and deputy director at the Solomon Guggenheim Museum and Foundation in New York City. You'd worked at the Met and the Brooklyn Museum before that. You're doing some incredible work now as an independent curator working with the Louis Vuitton Foundation in Paris and the Prada Foundation in Milan and among other things that we'll talk about over the course of this conversation. 00:01:02:22 - 00:01:23:23 Speaker 1 You have been the adjunct curator of the Venice Biennale, the co-organizer of the first Berlin Biennale, as well as the US commissioner of the Venice Biennale. Again, we'll talk about that. You have three masters and an undergraduate degree from Sarah Lawrence in art history. I'm so excited to talk about the future of contemporary art with you. 00:01:24:00 - 00:01:42:11 Speaker 1 It's very, very, very special, and I'm going to start us as we always do with every episode of Future of XYZ which is how, in the context of today's conversation and your incredible expertise, do we define contemporary art? 00:01:42:13 - 00:02:08:18 Speaker 2 It's a great question, and one that keeps changing all the time because contemporary really means of the moment and that moment keeps moving forward. So art historically, you could say it's but it's taught at this point it's probably 1970 to the present, but that's quickly becoming outdated. And so I really like to think of it as now, what's happening now. 00:02:08:20 - 00:02:12:01 Speaker 2 And maybe, you know, just before. 00:02:12:03 - 00:02:33:18 Speaker 1 It's, it's it's sets me up nicely for what I want to ask and, and just contextually for both listeners, viewers and for you. I am no expert, but I grew up in a house that was very contemporary art focused. I spent my childhood in Los Angeles like being dragged to galleries and artists studios and people coming into the house and being like, what is this? 00:02:33:18 - 00:02:58:06 Speaker 1 You know, like, I don't understand it and trying to explain it. And then I got an MBA, and my fellow MBAs also like, you know, I could do that, you know, to a Rothko or something. And it's and it's quite wild. But you're considered one of the preeminent authority on contemporary visual culture. And I'm curious, coming back to that definition, what you think contemporary art is more about. 00:02:58:08 - 00:03:10:13 Speaker 1 Is it, and maybe there's not a hierarchy, but is it about the aesthetics? Is it about pop culture? Is it a reflection of current affairs? Like what, what is it? 00:03:10:15 - 00:03:45:03 Speaker 2 It's not a monolithic entity or a thing or anything that I could really explain per se. There is the way an auction house, for instance, will differentiate between modern and contemporary, and that is purely chronological, similar to the way art history is taught. I tend, in my own work, to think more about points of rupture and complexity. So when artists start breaking the mold, questioning the status quo, searching for alternatives. 00:03:45:03 - 00:04:08:21 Speaker 2 And that goes far earlier than 1970. And modernism itself can be very contemporary. I mean, these are just terms, but in terms of the work that I'm engaged with and attracted to and want to, you know, further investigate, it tends to be by artists who are questioning and reshaping reality around them. 00:04:08:23 - 00:04:34:18 Speaker 1 I, I love that as a definition. and we're at an interesting moment in history. Some thing I've come across in my life is this kind of subjective aspect, specifically of contemporary art as well as modern art, these things that break. Who, in your opinion, gets to say what's good? 00:04:34:20 - 00:05:00:11 Speaker 2 Well, there's an entire industry, of course, that revolves around that question. There is the academy, you know, in terms of what's taught in art history and who teaches in studio practices, there's the museum curator and museum director, and then there's the board of trustees at a museum that needs to approve things. There's a market and what sells and doesn't sell. 00:05:00:11 - 00:05:10:11 Speaker 2 So there's many entry points as to what's judged as good or not. I question them all. I think one has to. 00:05:10:13 - 00:05:27:04 Speaker 1 I think it's fair. And it leads us to kind of I love in these conversations on the future to kind of ground in the history and the present, and then be able to launch into the future. This is going to be a quick answer round, because there's so many stakeholders, and you've just named a couple more that aren't even in my list, Nancy. 00:05:28:00 - 00:05:42:06 Speaker 1 But what is the current state of the contemporary art industry, if you will, as relates to the following? So in like, a sentence or less. Museums? 00:05:42:08 - 00:05:57:01 Speaker 2 Museums are increasingly involved with contemporary art because it is so adjacent to the market, and it speaks to an increasingly large public curious about it. And this is still relatively new. 00:05:57:03 - 00:06:03:09 Speaker 1 Galleries? 00:06:03:11 - 00:06:25:00 Speaker 2 Galleries follow the market, to some extent they shape the market. And right now contemporary art is probably the most expensive. You can get a discount Monet or Renoir if you want, compared to prices of work by contemporary artists. 00:06:25:02 - 00:06:39:10 Speaker 1 Absolutely. And we'll talk about that market in a minute. What about private foundations? I mean, you're working for two for instance already. So what's the role of the current state of the private foundations in terms of contemporary art? 00:06:39:12 - 00:07:13:13 Speaker 2 Well, quick answer. Many of the great museums initially were private collections. You know, the Guggenheim included. So I think that's really important to frame that. You know, many foundations seem to be formulated around the United States tax code because they allow for very big deductions. But at the same time, they're often built by people who are really passionate and knowledgeable, and they can provide resources for artists that museums are not in a position to given that they're not for profit institutions. 00:07:13:15 - 00:07:26:08 Speaker 1 Interesting. What about, fairs, art fairs like Art Basel and all all of the hoopla around that that's become kind of a circus in some ways, as people say. 00:07:26:10 - 00:07:57:12 Speaker 2 Yeah, there's absolutely an explosion of art fairs around the world. And I think it's really shifted from the experience of people going from gallery to gallery to see individual artists shows. I think really to some extent it’s evidence of how the contemporary art world and kind of social life have, are intermeshed at this point. And the fairs are destinations for people to see and be seen and participate. 00:07:57:14 - 00:08:00:02 Speaker 2 And they've become a necessary part of the market. 00:08:00:04 - 00:08:15:23 Speaker 1 Interesting. What about consumers? Like collectors as well as just the general consumer, as you just mentioned, about fairs like as destinations. 00:08:16:00 - 00:08:49:16 Speaker 2 Well, I think for many people, contemporary art, as we're discussing it, is out of reach for them, unfortunately. But I do think that there is now a certain galleries working with multiples and prints that are hardly new. But because using and harnessing the internet in ways to bring that discounted but less expensive artworks to a broader public that might be interested in collecting and owning work that couldn't otherwise afford it. 00:08:49:18 - 00:09:01:10 Speaker 1 So interesting, that role of social media. I want to talk about media like, again, the current state of the industry as relates to media and pop culture. 00:09:01:12 - 00:09:02:12 Speaker 2 Is that a question? Sorry. 00:09:02:14 - 00:09:06:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. One liner I as I said, it's a long list of stakeholders. 00:09:07:00 - 00:09:09:24 Speaker 2 okay. So could you just rephrase that then? Or just restate it, sorry. 00:09:10:05 - 00:09:20:04 Speaker 1 Yeah totally. The current state of the contemporary art world, as related to media and pop culture or media and pop culture as related to contemporary art, perhaps. 00:09:20:06 - 00:09:40:01 Speaker 2 Yeah there’s, I think pop culture and art have always had a really healthy and long flirtation and are mutually generative in ways. I mean, certainly the artists I worked with recently at the exhibition, you know, are steeped in pop culture. 00:09:40:03 - 00:09:50:12 Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. What about the artists themselves? What's what's what's the state of artistry today? 00:09:50:14 - 00:10:01:22 Speaker 2 I think it's no different than it's ever been. People struggling to find form and expression and then a way to survive in doing that. 00:10:01:24 - 00:10:07:06 Speaker 1 What about the education? That arts education. 00:10:07:08 - 00:10:26:04 Speaker 2 It's hard for me to speak to that in detail. I think that there's, you know, from the issues of whether it can be taught in public school anymore to whether artists can afford graduate school, if that's what they want to do. So that's I can't really speak with expertise about. 00:10:26:06 - 00:10:38:11 Speaker 1 That's totally fair. I will ask one follow up to that, though. Do you see a difference internationally versus in the US as far as the education in the arts goes or not so much? 00:10:38:13 - 00:11:03:07 Speaker 2 It would be hard for me to talk about quality since I don't know specific programs that well. But from what I do know is that many of the European, speaking just about the EU and the UK, the education system is far more subsidized. So it's a lot less expensive for artists. My own daughter included, who went to London to go to Goldsmiths. 00:11:03:09 - 00:11:20:05 Speaker 1 It's amazing. Okay. The last one of these rapid fire questions, and then we'll get into some meat. Because I don't want to talk about it again unless it's really material, but the internet and AI specifically. How is that having an impact on contemporary art right now? 00:11:20:07 - 00:11:44:05 Speaker 2 The internet slash social media has been hugely influential. I think most people in the culture industry use Instagram because it's visual and at least my algorithm, it's kind of all I see. And curators, artists, galleries, museums all use it for promotional means, and it is a really good way to find out what's happening in places that you can't get to necessarily. 00:11:44:07 - 00:11:55:20 Speaker 2 AI it's really hard for me to say where that's going to go vis-a-vis creativity. I think many of us just are watching with trepidation, curiosity, skepticism. 00:11:55:22 - 00:12:00:16 Speaker 1 Totally fair. Totally fair across the creative fields. I think that's the case. 00:12:01:05 - 00:12:24:15 Speaker 1 You served, I want to talk getting into kind of the money side of this a little bit. You served as the US commissioner to the Venice Biennale in 2007, which is kind of just as like the Great Recession was starting and the world was shifting, this kind of financial collapse. It was an interesting time economically as well as socio historically. 00:12:24:17 - 00:12:43:17 Speaker 1 Do you remember, what do you remember most from this time in like does it feel in hindsight or even at the time, like it was a pivot in the contemporary art world, or did the contemporary art world just kind of like continue afoot and become even more of an asset class? And I know you're not an economist, Nancy, so. 00:12:43:17 - 00:13:19:16 Speaker 2 Yeah, no, I'm trying to think because for me, that was an incredibly political moment. That exhibition so really, I wasn't that aware or thinking very deeply about the financial side other than I needed to raise money for the American Pavilion. Because the U.S. government only provided us a fraction of what it actually cost to do. The art world and, or the art market to the extent I understand it, the, the actual financial health of the of the world and the countries specifically are not always completely in tandem. 00:13:19:18 - 00:13:25:00 Speaker 2 In 2008, I guess would have been, you know, the big dip. 00:13:25:02 - 00:13:26:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:13:26:07 - 00:13:40:21 Speaker 2 And it's all relative, right? The blue chip art still remained very expensive and to some people is a very safe investment. So it's hard to say that it's one way or the other but, it has had staying power. 00:13:40:23 - 00:14:14:08 Speaker 1 Well, it's interesting because the global art market, not only contemporary art, but is anticipated right now, it's estimated at $60 billion this year, which is a little bit up from last year, but definitely stable. Art is considered, obviously contemporary art as you mentioned, even more so than the the classics or the greats. I mean a high value, high ticket item and considered by big investors and very wealthy people as its own asset class. 00:14:14:10 - 00:14:34:12 Speaker 1 This is obviously exemplified in these high, high value, high profile auctions and whatnot. But I'm curious if you think this is actually a good thing or bad thing for the contemporary art world and for contemporary art, the art part of contemporary art. 00:14:34:14 - 00:15:03:19 Speaker 2 I think it's both good and bad. I think it's good in that it sustains an ecosystem that allows for exhibitions and books to be published and certain artists to have a livelihood. I think it also creates a kind of exclusionary space for art practitioners and younger artists, smaller galleries, more experimental forms, things that may not get traction in a very hyper inflated market. 00:15:03:21 - 00:15:10:03 Speaker 2 So it's hard to just pass judgment on it. And, you know, in a very specific way. 00:15:10:05 - 00:15:34:16 Speaker 1 It's totally fair. Art Basel and UBS, one of the big global banks, put out a global art market report each year. And in 2026, the chief economist at UBS, Paul Donovan, pointed out that the profound of this, which many people are talking about in many contexts, this profound structural shift that's happening that they're calling like the great wealth transfer. 00:15:34:19 - 00:16:03:05 Speaker 1 And this is basically that in the next ten years, $83 trillion of wealth will be transferred to the next generation, younger people, a lot of women. And there's a lot of question, again, coming back to art, contemporary art as an asset class of this like, wealth transfer changing collector mindset, collecting patterns, philanthropy, and perhaps even the art itself as a response. 00:16:03:07 - 00:16:18:19 Speaker 1 What again, trying to take off the economist hat, but think about like the contemporary art world from the artists and gallery and collectors perspective that you know so intimately. Where do you think this might lead? 00:16:18:21 - 00:17:07:20 Speaker 2 It's really hard for me to say, you know, I don't operate with any of that knowledge, nor do I think the artists do. They certainly shouldn't. I think, you know, gallerists have to pay heed to what these trends are, more or less. But, you know, I really would prefer not to think of these things because the, it's very hard to work in a industry that has such, unbelievable wealth and trying to do things that have meaning and can function in a way that has, you know, activist roots and being provocative and all of the things that I associate with contemporary art. 00:17:07:22 - 00:17:20:18 Speaker 2 So I really don't operate in a realm where I think about wealth transfers and value. And I think most curators would answer with that. 00:17:20:20 - 00:17:21:23 Speaker 1 I think that's fair. 00:17:21:23 - 00:17:22:21 Speaker 2 To be honest. 00:17:22:23 - 00:17:54:07 Speaker 1 I think that's totally fair. And what's interesting to me is how an industry prepares itself for something like that, when the industry has itself become a business. Yet, as you just said, the roots of it are still creative, groundbreaking, instrumental in kind of shaping and defining culture as we just said of of now. One of the things I've been observing is that it feels like art writ large, but especially contemporary art is more and more expected by the average consumer to be an experience, quote unquote. 00:17:54:09 - 00:18:11:22 Speaker 1 They're like live and virtual events. These like paid ticket pop ups, like traveling exhibitions and a whole bunch more that are cross-cultural in their nature, global sometimes. Can you just talk about that experiential landscape for contemporary art right now? 00:18:11:24 - 00:18:42:02 Speaker 2 Yeah, I think it functions on a number of levels. There is the experience culture that emerged in the, you know, mid 20th century. And there's many theories as as to why having to do with surplus, capital and people seeking things other than things. In terms of art, there's the sort of performative turn where you would have time based work from anything from video to live performance within the galleries and museums. 00:18:42:04 - 00:19:09:12 Speaker 2 And that was, you know, toward the end of the 20th century, and certainly, you know, very present, more and more so and then there is the what you refer to, which is this, other kind of immersive, experiential cultural experience, everything from the ice cream museum to walking into a Van Gogh painting to, team labs and very immersive psychedelic experiences. 00:19:09:12 - 00:19:44:17 Speaker 2 And they're not all the same thing, and they shouldn't be thought of together. I think the only takeaway is that people probably are very tired of being isolated and staring at screens, and really want to be invited into something larger than themselves that they can have a transformative experience, whether it's a psychedelic blinking light, artistic installation or it's a durational performance by Marina Abramovic. 00:19:44:19 - 00:20:15:07 Speaker 1 Absolutely. You, speaking Marina Abramovic, you who, I'm sure many people listening or watching will know, a lot of people won't but, a performance artist who is incredibly well known for lots of work since, I don't know, the 60s maybe. But certainly her show at MoMA where she sat for 24 hours a day for, I think it was close to a month, staring and engaging with whomever or whomever didn't engage with her. 00:20:15:09 - 00:20:40:22 Speaker 1 But you've had the opportunity to work with some of these biggest names or, or their estates in some cases in contemporary art. I mean, this is Matthew Barney and Richard Prince and Marina Abramovic and Louise Bourgeois and Jenny Holzer and so many others, Nancy. Is there a shared or common mindset or approach to the creative process that you've witnessed working with all these different luminaries? 00:20:40:24 - 00:21:01:18 Speaker 2 Not at all. And everyone is very different. I can only speak to my own practice, which I now in retrospect looking back at the trajectory of choices I made along the way of exhibitions of what I've done and hopefully will still do. Many of them do have a performative element. Many of them do involve live or performance or recordings of live performances. 00:21:01:20 - 00:21:11:13 Speaker 2 So I'm obviously drawn to that. But, you know, certainly not all the artists I've worked with can be described that way. 00:21:11:15 - 00:21:31:15 Speaker 1 In, in, in kind of the world that we're living in. We touched on AI before and the internet. And I mean it's, things are changing. I mean, what's available to artists today wasn't 100 years ago or even, as you said, in the 70s. Certainly the computer power and the, you know, kind of like the, the AV side, the audio visual side of things. 00:21:31:17 - 00:21:43:20 Speaker 1 Is there a medium or mediums that you are finding are really exciting as you look ahead in the contemporary art world? 00:21:43:22 - 00:22:13:09 Speaker 2 I think that, the short answer is no. In that there, I'm not aware of something other than whatever AI is going to mean for the creative field, which is still very much an open ended question. The digital infiltration of the art world has happened, it continues to enrich it. And I think artists find different ways to work with digital mediums, whether it's altering film or computer based art and such. 00:22:13:11 - 00:22:42:21 Speaker 2 But I can't say that there's something else that I'm particularly aware of. And there's certainly artists today working with science is a real keen interest in other than human life forms and kind of yearning for the unseen world. And, you know, noticing trends and interests among contemporary artists so that it's hard to say where that would lead and what mediums would be appropriate for it. 00:22:42:21 - 00:22:46:13 Speaker 2 But that's really for the artists to determine. 00:22:46:15 - 00:23:14:15 Speaker 1 I love that. In November, you have a book coming out with Phaidon Press about the artist Felix Gonzalez-Torres. And and you offered him, I believe it was his first solo exhibit, at the Guggenheim back many years ago. Prior, I think it was prior to his his passing, unfortunately, of AIDS in 1996. But you also just curated a solo show of his at the Reina Sofia museum in Madrid 00:23:14:17 - 00:23:25:21 Speaker 1 just a couple months ago in May. What is it specifically, Nancy, about his work that was and remains so resonant? 00:23:26:21 - 00:23:28:18 Speaker 1 I know you're writing a whole book about it so I'm asking in like twelve seconds. 00:23:28:21 - 00:23:30:05 Speaker 2 Yeah. No, no, it's like, 00:23:30:07 - 00:23:32:06 Speaker 1 00:23:32:08 - 00:24:07:24 Speaker 2 Sure. yeah. And I co-curated the exhibition in Madrid with Alejandro Cesarco, an artist and, you know, wonderful thinker. And it was really wonderful to be in dialog with somebody else about the work. And our question really was, you know, why, Felix, again, why now? And our answer was that the work continues to be really relevant in that he asks such important questions about authority and who gets to write history and whose voice is reflected in an institutional setting. 00:24:08:01 - 00:24:32:12 Speaker 2 What is the role of the audience? What responsibility do they need to take? And he made quite participatory work, these paper stacks that are endlessly replenishable, that people can help themselves to different photographic posters or posters with text, and these sculptures made of candy that people can participate by helping themselves and taking candy to eat. 00:24:32:14 - 00:25:03:19 Speaker 2 And it's very layered and there's so much metaphor and there's so much poetry, but there's also a lot of activism in the work. And his, as a Cuban American, queer, HIV positive person who left Cuba as a child in exile, the work also deals quite remarkably with notions of the diaspora and living in a, you know, in dislocation and adaptation. 00:25:03:19 - 00:25:07:18 Speaker 2 So it felt very, very relevant to do this work again now. 00:25:07:19 - 00:25:52:20 Speaker 1 It's very relevant for all sorts of horrible, sad reasons, politically speaking, in the world that we live in, politically and environmentally as well. You've been very, very much a proponent of diverse voices and including them equitably in the contemporary art world for your whole career. I mean, Felix being just one example, Nancy, I kind of look at contemporary art as being inclusive by its nature, because to your definition, it's the now. What is kind of the current status and future status of I'm going to use the banned expression DEI but I think it's so meaningful? 00:25:52:20 - 00:25:59:08 Speaker 1 Diversity, equity, inclusion in contemporary art right now. 00:25:59:10 - 00:26:32:22 Speaker 2 Well, it's an interesting moment to ask that question, since it’s come under siege from the White House and kind of turned inside out sadly. I think that change requires a long period of time and that museums, like most industries in 2020, when a lot of this became an inflection point, were very behind in true diverse representation, both staff wise as well as their programs. 00:26:32:24 - 00:26:56:07 Speaker 2 And there is a lot of kind of instant flipping the script and trying to repair very, very quickly without, you know, any kind of deep internal analysis of how true change could happen that wasn't just, you know, symbolic. And I've been out of museums now, you know, independent for almost six years. So I can't really speak to what's happening inside of museums. 00:26:56:07 - 00:27:04:00 Speaker 2 But I would like to believe that it's, you know, true, organic, thoughtful change and not, you know, merely symbolic. 00:27:04:02 - 00:27:05:02 Speaker 1 And yeah, I think that's 00:27:05:02 - 00:27:07:15 Speaker 2 Adding a name to a program or such. 00:27:07:17 - 00:27:27:01 Speaker 1 I think hopefully, I agree with you, and I hope that especially because of the, top down onslaught and lack of support, perhaps we have to look at ourselves more. You know, we don't shout. We don't. It's like greenwashing in sustainability. They're calling it green shouting. It's like, you know, there's there's there's always these moments in time when certain things are more accepted or not. 00:27:27:01 - 00:27:49:07 Speaker 1 And you hope that it becomes more true, more real. We're coming to the end but I'm very curious about one thing. You sent me a headshot, which is what everyone watching episode 175 will see in the announcement for today's episode, Nancy. And on the website and everything. And the credit for that photograph goes to the famous fashion photographers, Inez and Vinoodh. 00:27:49:07 - 00:28:15:14 Speaker 1 You also working with the Prada Foundation, Louis Vuitton Foundation. I spent my first ten years of my career in the contemporary art world. Sorry, in the contemporary fashion world, working with photographers like Inez and Vinoodh. I'm really curious, like, is there a specific link between fashion, luxury, and contemporary art, or is it just, just happenstance. 00:28:15:16 - 00:28:38:17 Speaker 2 I think is happenstance. I think that fashion designers are truly creative people. They look to many, in many cases, they look to art for inspiration, like Rei Kawakubo, for instance, very, very actively involved with artists and yeah, Comme Des Garcons. Agnes B in the 90s had a newsletter that was free, and all her stories where she would commission artists, worked with the curator. 00:28:38:19 - 00:29:15:21 Speaker 2 So I think that, and artists, you know, some really do appreciate fashion and, and, and are close to fashion houses and have designed, help designed their their patterns of paintings have been used for fabrics. So I do think there's a kind of exchange there. And then in terms of the, the foundations, they have found a way, you know, in terms of like Prada and Louis Vuitton, but also Chanel, you know, to be involved in the culture cultural sphere by providing the resources for, you know, very creative programing that is otherwise pretty difficult to do now. 00:29:16:14 - 00:29:37:14 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, the for anyone who hasn't had the privilege of going to the foundation Vuitton in Paris, it's every show that they put on seems to be better than the next. It's pretty extraordinary. My second to last question, I'm going to give you a choice, okay? You get to answer one or the other. 00:29:37:14 - 00:29:50:08 Speaker 1 One is either what's your greatest lesson as a top notch curator for 40ish years, Nancy. And the other is a free to answer. Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you wish I had about contemporary art. 00:29:50:08 - 00:30:03:19 Speaker 2 Oh god, tough one. Both are. Sorry. I'm drawing a blank for both. 00:30:03:21 - 00:30:08:14 Speaker 2 Now, I'm all thinking of all the regrets, but I'm not going to share them. 00:30:10:14 - 00:30:15:04 Speaker 1 You and your sister. I love you both. 00:30:15:06 - 00:30:17:22 Speaker 2 Well, this is, what was my alternative? 00:30:17:24 - 00:30:23:21 Speaker 1 What have I not asked you about contemporary art that you wish I had? 00:30:23:23 - 00:30:42:01 Speaker 2 Well? Oh, God. Lots of things. Like the inequity between male artists and female artists in terms of exposure and and price points. That's one and an area that I really have tried to make a difference. yeah. Maybe just leave it there. 00:30:42:03 - 00:31:05:14 Speaker 1 I think that's a good one. I just had a friend and iF Design award juror on, who teaches at the Graduate School of Design at Harvard. She just published a book called “Man Made”. And it's about the built environment, not the art world and the inequities and and how the impact is. So, it's I think it's on a lot of our minds these days in lots of different arenas. 00:31:05:16 - 00:31:20:05 Speaker 1 Okay. Nancy, final question of episode 175, Future of Contemporary Art. Your greatest hope for the future of contemporary art in 25ish years? So that takes us to 2050. 00:31:20:07 - 00:31:51:21 Speaker 2 Well, I have to say this answer is very steeped in the moment. So it's, take that as part of. Summer 2026. Summer 2026 and watching the Smithsonian being under siege from the Trump administration. On one level, I embrace some of it, in the fact that art is that important, that they feel they need to control it and people's access to it and what it says or doesn't say. 00:31:51:21 - 00:32:19:24 Speaker 2 So that to some extent is an inverted vote of confidence. Yeah. But I think that the independence of art is absolutely critical apart from the market, apart from, you know, the teaching academy. But that just there is art does not serve the state. Art does not serve the market for that matter. Also, it's, you know, really needs a clear runway somehow. 00:32:20:01 - 00:32:31:24 Speaker 2 and artists need to be given the trust in the space to and curators and museum directors and all the people who program should have independence. 00:32:32:01 - 00:32:57:02 Speaker 1 I love that as a, as a thoughtful conclusion. And we hope that by 2050 we've righted this ship. And that is, that is, more, more available than ever, whether in our country or around the world. I mean, that's it's it's not unique here. It's, it's just a moment. So Nancy Spector, independent contemporary art curator, thank you so much for joining us from Brooklyn. 00:32:57:04 - 00:33:21:11 Speaker 1 Today, in the midst of all of your myriad travels, we all love hearing from you. Thank you for everyone watching. You can listen anywhere you get your favorite podcasts. On this 175th episode, please be sure to leave us a five star review. I don't ask very often, and we really need them to help others find this amazing content. 00:33:21:13 - 00:33:42:24 Speaker 1 and I'm going to start asking and, hopefully you can do that. And if you're listening and you didn't know, you can watch on YouTube, Nancy didn't know. So you can watch yourself on YouTube. And you can follow iF Design, Surround Podcast Network as well as, Future of XYZ on Instagram. Thank you again, Nancy. 00:33:42:24 - 00:33:52:15 Speaker 1 Congratulations on the forthcoming book in November. And, we'll look forward to seeing all of you again in two weeks time.