Latest / This Week On ICE / ICE detention hunger strikes spread, sanctuary cities under pressure, and 1A freedoms put to question outside Delaney Hall

Transcript

ICE detention hunger strikes spread, sanctuary cities under pressure, and 1A freedoms put to question outside Delaney Hall · This Week On ICE

0:06
we have Jersey state police shooting at protesters and
0:10
journalists hitting them
0:12
with 40 millimeter rounds and so after the protesters scuffle
0:18
with ICE and ICE
0:19
brutalizes them there are fences that go up the state police
0:23
steps in and they do
0:24
ICE's job for them and people care a little less day by day
0:29
because it's not ICE
0:31
SPEAKER_00: brutalizing people and that's not in the headlines all the time
0:39
SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to This Week On ICE for June 5, 2026.
0:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm Kelly Kimball.
0:43
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Matt Kendrick.
0:45
SPEAKER_02: Who you just heard is Wally Kahn.
0:47
He is an independent documentary filmmaker and photojournalist
0:51
who has been
0:51
documenting the ongoing protests outside of Delaney Hall that
0:55
have been taking
0:55
place in solidarity with a hunger strike led by over 300
0:59
detainees inside the ICE
1:01
SPEAKER_02: detention facility.
1:03
SPEAKER_02: Over the weekend,
1:04
tensions rose when New Jersey Mayor Mikey Sherrill sent New
1:07
Jersey State Police to
1:08
SPEAKER_02: the site of these demonstrations.
1:11
We're going to talk about what has happened since then and look
1:14
into why advocates
1:15
SPEAKER_02: say First Amendment rights were shaken.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: Then we're going to talk about airports in sanctuary cities.
1:21
This week Reuters reported that the Trump administration is
1:24
drawing up plans that
1:26
could stop immigration and customs processing for international
1:29
travelers and cargo
1:30
at major US airports in cities identified as quote unquote
1:34
sanctuary jurisdictions.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: We'll discuss what that means for travelers.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: After the break,
1:40
SPEAKER_02: we're sharing the rest of our exclusive interview with Wally Khan,
1:43
who will tell us more about what he saw when tensions between
1:46
law enforcement and
1:47
SPEAKER_02: demonstrators reached a zenith a few days ago.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: Lots to discuss.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: Stick with us.
1:57
SPEAKER_02: Okay,
1:58
SPEAKER_02: so before we get into the stories,
1:59
SPEAKER_02: I want to say,
2:00
SPEAKER_02: Matt,
2:00
SPEAKER_02: I'm so happy to welcome you back to the show.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: You were away for about a month.
2:05
SPEAKER_02: Ben Camacho was an amazing co-host,
2:07
SPEAKER_02: but it's really,
2:08
SPEAKER_02: really nice to have the OG team back together.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Kelly.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm really glad.
2:12
I thought you guys did a wonderful job,
2:14
and I just want to thank Ben so much for his hard work.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: I was blown away by not only the stories he brought up but especially the
2:20
interviews he brought in I really couldn't have asked for a
2:23
better co-host and I
2:25
just want to say like Ben you have an absolutely open
2:27
invitation to be on the show
2:29
anytime that we can help feature or promote your reporting we
2:32
will be more than
2:32
happy to do so and yeah it means a lot I do have a quick fact
2:37
check though that I
2:38
SPEAKER_01: heard
2:38
it was said on this show that I am six foot five I am in fact
2:41
six foot three oh
2:43
okay well you know I am one to exaggerate from time to time but
2:47
yeah okay because I
2:48
actually I remember saying that and I was like I wonder if this
2:50
is accurate because
2:52
emotionally Matt is six foot five yes okay I am sorry thank you
2:57
for the fact check
2:58
no no no no need to apologize we will issue a correction in the
3:01
next edition of the
3:02
newsletter no problem Matt is six foot three okay well thank
3:06
you Ben for co-hosting
3:08
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, welcome back, Matt.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: All right.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, let's dive into this week's news, Kelly.
3:13
This week's immigration news has all focused on Delaney Hall in
3:16
New Jersey.
3:18
And you reported from the ground at Delaney last week and have
3:21
followed the hunger
3:22
SPEAKER_01: strike,
3:22
SPEAKER_01: the solidarity protests very closely ever since.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: What's the latest?
3:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
3:26
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
3:27
SPEAKER_02: so much has happened,
3:28
SPEAKER_02: not only since the start of the hunger strike that began on May 22nd,
3:32
SPEAKER_02: but so much happened in the last seven days since our last episode.
3:36
I'm going to try my best to give everything the entire arc of
3:39
this conversation and
3:40
everything that developed as much justice as possible and the
3:43
best way to do that
3:44
is to start with day one on May 22nd over 300 detainees mostly
3:50
concentrated in Ward
3:51
SPEAKER_02: 2 in Delaney Hall they
3:54
signed a petition and began a hunger and labor strike against
3:58
what they allege are
3:59
SPEAKER_02: completely unsafe and unjust conditions within the facility.
4:04
They wrote this entire 300 person strike kind of petition in
4:09
Spanish and they
4:10
released it to different advocacy organizations and allies and
4:14
these are their list
4:15
of demands and this is important to keep up because this is
4:17
what started it all.
4:19
SPEAKER_02: For one, they want the immediate release of vulnerable detainees.
4:23
SPEAKER_02: So that is namely the elderly,
4:24
SPEAKER_02: children,
4:25
SPEAKER_02: pregnant detainees,
4:27
SPEAKER_02: and detainees with serious medical conditions.
4:30
SPEAKER_02: And then they all want their freedom thereafter.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: They're not protesting so that they have better conditions.
4:34
SPEAKER_02: They're protesting for their freedom.
4:37
SPEAKER_02: This is a 1,000-bed facility.
4:38
It's the largest ICE detention facility in the East Coast,
4:41
and they all want to be released.
4:43
They also want a meeting with Governor Mikey Sherrill,
4:46
New Jersey Governor Mikey Sherrill,
4:47
to come inside and talk with them about the facilities and
4:51
about what they have
4:51
SPEAKER_02: been experiencing.
4:53
They also want a thorough review of all of their immigration
4:56
cases and habeas
4:57
SPEAKER_02: filings which they allege have been ignored by immigration authorities.
5:03
SPEAKER_02: And last,
5:03
they want to end any coercive actions intended for detainees to
5:07
sign deportation or
5:09
SPEAKER_02: voluntary departure documents.
5:12
SPEAKER_02: Okay?
5:13
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: From May 22nd through about May 28th,
5:17
I was outside the facility documenting the demonstrations
5:20
outside on May 28th,
5:22
anywhere from a few dozen to a couple of hundred protesters
5:27
gathered outside of
5:28
SPEAKER_02: Delaney Hall.
5:29
and from day to night they were they were there around the
5:32
clock and during the
5:33
daytime there were significantly less clashes between
5:37
demonstrators and ICE
5:39
officers but once night came these interactions became much
5:43
more physical much more
5:45
SPEAKER_02: violent and much more confrontational
5:47
Between that time and while I was actually there on the ground
5:50
on May 28th,
5:51
reports came in that those who were part of the hunger strike
5:54
were experiencing
5:56
SPEAKER_02: retaliation by ICE officers for starting the hunger strike.
6:00
SPEAKER_02: So they were being beaten, they were being pepper sprayed,
6:02
SPEAKER_02: The New Jersey State Troopers
6:28
And they ended up blocking off about a half mile of road to
6:33
oncoming traffic,
6:34
SPEAKER_02: which in my opinion actually did keep protesters safe.
6:37
But also what it did was control and contain where
6:41
demonstrators exercise their first amendment.
6:44
SPEAKER_02: gave New Jersey State Police the opportunity to really kettle,
6:47
SPEAKER_02: control,
6:48
and then ultimately arrest or even have physical confrontations
6:52
with anyone within
6:53
SPEAKER_02: what they called a First Amendment zone.
6:56
SPEAKER_02: Over the weekend,
6:57
SPEAKER_02: from May 29th to May 31st,
6:59
this is where we see some of the most kind of violent and the
7:04
most colorful imagery
7:06
SPEAKER_02: that I'm sure a lot of people saw on their news channels,
7:09
SPEAKER_02: in newspapers and magazines.
7:10
SPEAKER_02: These are the images that defined what has been going on in Delaney Hall.
7:14
And so it felt like an echo of what we saw around this time
7:18
last year in Los
7:18
SPEAKER_02: Angeles,
7:19
SPEAKER_02: how we saw clashes with protesters in Chicago and in Minneapolis.
7:25
SPEAKER_02: We saw New Jersey State Police with riot gear.
7:28
and on horseback and they were really intimidating and kettling
7:31
and pushing people
7:32
out and away from the facility and then we just saw
7:35
demonstrators pushing back by
7:37
SPEAKER_02: May 31st there was a curfew that was instituted by the mayor of Newark,
7:41
Ross Baraka it was later lifted on Tuesday of this week
7:46
somewhere in that funk the
7:48
FBI came in and they raided a triage center that was set up
7:53
outside the facility
7:54
SPEAKER_02: and had been there for over a year
7:57
And this triage center was intended to help support families
8:01
visiting their loved
8:03
SPEAKER_02: ones that were detained in Delaney Hall And so as of this week,
8:07
Newark Mayor Ray Baraka and the New Jersey Attorney General
8:11
have sued the GEO Group
8:14
that owns Delaney Hall And they are calling for Delaney Hall to
8:18
be shut down That
8:19
SPEAKER_02: is where we're at today
8:22
Governor Sherrill's deployment of New Jersey state troopers has
8:27
attracted a lot of controversy.
8:29
SPEAKER_01: She's a Democratic governor,
8:30
SPEAKER_01: but she's considered sort of a moderate,
8:31
SPEAKER_01: more in the center of the party.
8:33
I'm wondering your impression of how the deployment of troopers
8:36
has affected press
8:38
SPEAKER_01: freedoms and freedom of assembly.
8:41
SPEAKER_02: The thing is that on paper,
8:43
bringing in New Jersey state troopers to help with law
8:47
enforcement and security of
8:48
SPEAKER_02: the facility would seem like it's a good idea.
8:50
These state troopers are more familiar with the community
8:53
within New Jersey.
8:54
Usually ICE are federal officers that are kind of moved from
8:57
place to place,
8:58
right?
8:59
SPEAKER_02: And then the intended purpose was to keep protesters safe.
9:03
SPEAKER_02: Again, Delaney Hall sits on two-way traffic.
9:06
SPEAKER_02: It's actually really easy to get pushed or to fall into
9:10
just an oncoming car and this two way traffic is usually
9:14
occupied by like 18 wheeler trucks.
9:17
SPEAKER_02: It's like a major thoroughfare for semi trucks.
9:20
SPEAKER_02: And so the intent there was to keep protesters safe.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: However, once state troopers stepped in
9:27
SPEAKER_02: First Amendment rights themselves were heavily policed.
9:31
And this is where protesters and members of the press
9:33
themselves have said that the
9:35
SPEAKER_02: access to the First Amendment was really challenged and put to question.
9:39
SPEAKER_02: By May 29th,
9:40
SPEAKER_02: they put up these metal,
9:41
SPEAKER_02: plastic,
9:42
SPEAKER_02: and cement barricades to cut off,
9:44
SPEAKER_02: you know,
9:44
SPEAKER_02: a wide area and called that a First Amendment zone,
9:48
SPEAKER_02: right,
9:48
SPEAKER_02: as I mentioned previously.
9:50
SPEAKER_02: But there,
9:50
they were able to really push and kettle and rest whoever was
9:54
within that First
9:54
SPEAKER_02: Amendment zone to
9:56
so one AP photographer was hit in the knee and injured she was
9:59
in a wheelchair and
10:00
she was trying to get past a police line and to get medical
10:04
help and the police
10:05
initially refused to let her pass and she was literally saying
10:08
I here is my press
10:10
credential I have like published photographs with the
10:13
Associated Press please let
10:15
me through I am in severe pain I need to get medical attention
10:20
and it literally
10:20
took like a very heated argument between her her colleagues and
10:23
the police line
10:24
SPEAKER_02: until she was able to be let through
10:26
There was another instance in which state police forcibly
10:29
pulled a WNBC news crew
10:31
member from their vehicle and later that resulted in them being
10:35
exposed to tear gas
10:36
and Then there was at least one independent photographer that
10:40
was allowed access to
10:41
this protest zone Only after submitting to a police pat-down
10:45
which is against the
10:46
SPEAKER_02: Constitution Right,
10:49
SPEAKER_02: so basically what had happened was that
10:53
SPEAKER_02: Once a First Amendment zone was instituted,
10:57
and once New Jersey State Troopers stepped in to take over
11:00
security of the area,
11:02
SPEAKER_02: it pretty much came down to the game day decision of individual officers.
11:08
SPEAKER_02: and this this there is this particular moment that I believe was hugely
11:13
consequential around Sunday night they kettled a cluster of
11:16
protesters and members
11:17
of the press into one area and then a New Jersey state trooper
11:20
said okay everybody
11:22
SPEAKER_02: in this crowd if you are a credentialed member of the press
11:27
you can leave or you you more like you can leave but if you
11:32
stay you'll get
11:32
arrested basically and every person who was credentialed then
11:37
had to like show
11:37
their badge to this police officer and then the police had to
11:40
determine if their
11:41
credentials looked legit enough and the thing is that press
11:44
credentials are very
11:45
inconsistent there's no universal way to be credentialed as a
11:48
as a member of the
11:49
SPEAKER_02: press
11:50
SPEAKER_02: And even then,
11:51
SPEAKER_02: there were still credentialed members that were getting frisked,
11:54
SPEAKER_02: having their materials and their cameras searched.
11:59
There were still varying levels of allowance as to whether or
12:02
not they could enter
12:03
SPEAKER_02: this First Amendment zone,
12:04
SPEAKER_02: this demonstration zone.
12:06
SPEAKER_02: There's no uniformity among law enforcement in their approach.
12:09
SPEAKER_02: And that was made incredibly clear.
12:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:13
Yeah,
12:13
and then this is,
12:15
I really loved this essay in The Guardian that came out by Adam
12:18
Rose.
12:19
SPEAKER_02: He's the Deputy Director at Advocacy at Freedom of the Press Foundation.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: and I've had him speak to my students.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: I teach law ethics and safety for graduate journalism students.
12:29
SPEAKER_02: Adam Rose is absolutely brilliant.
12:31
SPEAKER_02: And he has made the case, how do we protect the First Amendment?
12:35
SPEAKER_02: How do we protect freedom of the press?
12:38
And the way to do it isn't to have a strict credentialing
12:42
system dictated by the
12:44
SPEAKER_02: police,
12:44
SPEAKER_02: which seems a bit unethical depending on how you make your arguments,
12:48
SPEAKER_02: right?
12:48
SPEAKER_02: Like why should the police or why should a government entity of any sort
12:53
SPEAKER_02: believes who or who is not a journalist.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: Rather,
12:56
SPEAKER_02: the best way to protect freedom of speech and freedom of the press,
13:00
SPEAKER_02: freedom of assembly,
13:02
SPEAKER_02: is to protect the act of journalism itself.
13:05
SPEAKER_02: And courts have mostly ruled in this favor across the country.
13:09
So the act of journalism is expressed when you have
13:13
professional equipment like a DSLR or
13:17
SPEAKER_02: or a video camera,
13:19
SPEAKER_02: when you have perhaps a press vest,
13:21
SPEAKER_02: when you have business cards that indicate that you are a journalist,
13:24
SPEAKER_02: when you protect the act of journalism,
13:27
it prevents abuse of the First Amendment from happening so much
13:31
more successfully
13:32
SPEAKER_02: than making sure that everybody has the same type of press credential.
13:38
you know it's such a good point because there's nothing in the
13:40
Constitution that
13:41
defines like what a journalist is or any sort of national
13:44
institution that issues
13:45
these qualifications the fact is that any individual in the
13:49
United States not even
13:50
SPEAKER_01: any citizen any individual has the right to
13:53
report and to interview people and to be on the scene
13:55
documenting government actions.
13:58
And so this attempt to separate credentialed press from
14:04
protesters is problematic on its face.
14:07
I wanted to turn to one of the leaders of this hunger strike at
14:11
Delaney Hall,
14:12
Martin Soto.
14:13
His wife,
14:14
Gabriela Soto,
14:15
helped start a solidarity protest outside of Delaney Hall.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: What happened to Martin since then?
14:21
SPEAKER_02: So he is considered the lead of these hunger strikes, right?
14:24
SPEAKER_02: And Martin is an immigrant from Peru.
14:27
SPEAKER_02: And a few days after the start of these hunger strikes,
14:29
SPEAKER_02: Martin was transferred to an ICE detention facility in Elizabeth.
14:34
What this indicates to me is that these hunger strikes are
14:38
having a powerful impact.
14:39
They're putting the pressure on because why would you suddenly
14:43
transfer the leader
14:44
SPEAKER_02: of a 300-member hunger and labor strike if it didn't mean something,
14:48
SPEAKER_02: right?
14:49
and put him in solitary too which is one of the most abusive
14:53
acts you can do to a
14:53
human being and put him in solitary confinement which means
14:56
that he can't interact
14:57
with other people and that also indicates to me maybe they're
15:01
afraid that Martin
15:02
will start a hunger strike in this new facility in Elizabeth
15:06
and ever since the
15:08
start of the hunger strike in Delaney Hall there have been five
15:11
more hunger strikes
15:12
SPEAKER_02: initiated in ICE detention facilities all over the country so
15:17
SPEAKER_02: in Northwest Detention Center in Tacoma,
15:19
SPEAKER_02: Washington,
15:20
SPEAKER_02: which is a facility owned by the GEO Group,
15:23
SPEAKER_02: which also owns Delaney Hall.
15:25
Another hunger strike in Torrance County Detention Facility in
15:28
Estonia,
15:28
New Mexico.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: This facility is owned by CoreCivic.
15:32
There's another hunger strike in Prairieland Detention Center
15:34
in Alvarado,
15:34
Texas.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: This is a facility owned by LaSalle Corrections.
15:38
SPEAKER_02: And then most notably,
15:39
SPEAKER_02: these hunger strikes that are in California that I'm about to mention,
15:42
SPEAKER_02: they began on May 16th,
15:44
SPEAKER_02: which was even before the Delaney Hall hunger strikes.
15:48
SPEAKER_02: These two hunger strikes are in Adelanto ICE detention facility,
15:51
SPEAKER_02: which is a very familiar facility to us on this podcast,
15:54
SPEAKER_02: and another one,
15:55
SPEAKER_02: Desert View Annex,
15:57
SPEAKER_02: which is also in Adelanto,
15:58
SPEAKER_02: California.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: Both of these facilities are also owned by the GEO Group.
16:04
SPEAKER_02: The important part about this is that Martinez transferred,
16:07
and the transferring of detainees to several different
16:11
facilities is a ballooning
16:13
SPEAKER_02: trend under the Trump administration.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: That's fascinating and very, very depressing.
16:20
I really love this one section in Adam Rose's essay in The
16:23
Guardian because one of
16:24
SPEAKER_02: the main arguments that law enforcement,
16:27
SPEAKER_02: government institutions have is,
16:29
SPEAKER_02: well,
16:30
SPEAKER_02: if we have to protect the act of journalism,
16:33
then how do we tell the difference between someone doing
16:36
journalism and someone
16:37
SPEAKER_02: demonstrating?
16:38
SPEAKER_02: This is Adam Rose's response to that,
16:40
is that officials sometimes complain that this makes it harder
16:43
to determine who's a
16:44
SPEAKER_02: journalist.
16:45
and what he said is the First Amendment wasn't intended to make
16:48
an officer's job
16:49
easier and the credibility of an officer erodes every time an
16:54
officer is caught
16:55
SPEAKER_02: swinging a baton at a camera.
16:57
yeah yeah this is something we hear often from law enforcement
17:01
and I do have
17:02
sympathy in that law enforcement is a difficult difficult job
17:05
but so often there
17:07
are these arguments that whether it comes to first amendment
17:10
rights whether it's
17:11
it's sort of gun rights and the ability of law enforcement to
17:15
draw weapons on or
17:16
even kill citizens during their interactions there's this
17:19
argument that oh well
17:21
you know more more regulation and more oversight would make the
17:24
officers jobs more
17:25
difficult and and frankly making their jobs easier is not any
17:29
of our responsibility
17:30
it is hard to be a law enforcement officer because trying to
17:34
balance individual
17:35
SPEAKER_01: rights in a democracy is always going to be difficult and what you know
17:38
where does it come to the line that like where is it where is
17:41
it too hard to be a
17:41
journalist right where is it too hard to be a demonstrator
17:45
these things should also
17:46
be facilitated there also are constitutional rights so just
17:49
hearing that term made
17:50
me want to point out that it's always a balance and law
17:53
enforcement should not be
17:55
the only ones whose whose interests are at stake in these
17:58
discussions but thank you
18:00
Kelly really really important stuff and appreciate you going on
18:04
the ground there to
18:04
SPEAKER_01: bring us these updates
18:05
Thank you and that's a very good point Matt thanks so much I
18:08
would love to turn to
18:09
you now so you are going to talk about the Trump
18:11
administration's new challenge to
18:13
sanctuary jurisdictions which for those who aren't familiar
18:16
with the term you know
18:17
SPEAKER_02: sanctuary jurisdiction or the more popular one sanctuary city a sanctuary
18:22
jurisdiction is any city county or even an entire state that
18:26
has laws or policies
18:28
that limit the cooperation between you know the local law
18:31
enforcement and federal
18:32
SPEAKER_02: immigration authorities so
18:35
SPEAKER_02: last week,
18:35
the Trump administration began drawing up plans to confront
18:40
these jurisdictions to
18:41
SPEAKER_02: really force their hand to cooperating with ICE.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: So what is the latest, Matt?
18:45
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
18:46
So this is really coming out of the Department of Homeland
18:49
Security with its new
18:50
SPEAKER_01: secretary,
18:50
SPEAKER_01: Mark Wayne Mullen.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: He is threatening to pull
18:54
Customs and Border Protection Agents from airports in so-called
18:57
sanctuary cities.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: So basically what he's saying is,
19:00
SPEAKER_01: well,
19:00
SPEAKER_01: if these cities don't want to help us or counties or states,
19:03
SPEAKER_01: as you mentioned,
19:04
if they don't want to help us enforce the immigration crackdown
19:07
of the Trump
19:08
SPEAKER_01: administration,
19:09
then why should we help them manage travelers coming in and out
19:13
of the United
19:13
SPEAKER_01: States?
19:14
SPEAKER_01: It's a complete non sequitur.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't make any sense.
19:16
And like you said,
19:18
sanctuary cities or sanctuary jurisdictions simply limit
19:21
how much local officials can cooperate with federal immigration
19:25
enforcement so that
19:26
might mean like let's say someone who has visa issues is jailed
19:31
for an unrelated
19:32
crime you know could be anything in a non sanctuary
19:35
jurisdiction the local law
19:37
enforcement might then call up ICE and say hey we have someone
19:41
here who appears to
19:42
SPEAKER_01: have visa issues or is undocumented
19:45
SPEAKER_01: and we're going to hand them over to you.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: And so unrelated to whatever landed them in jail,
19:49
they will end up in the hands of ICE and possibly detained in
19:52
one of these horrible
19:53
SPEAKER_01: facilities like we've just been mentioning at Delaney Hall,
19:56
SPEAKER_01: possibly deported,
19:57
SPEAKER_01: etc.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: Whereas in sanctuary cities, they are limited from doing that handover.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: Now, I want to be very clear, that does not mean that
20:07
local officials can stop ICE or immigration enforcement from
20:11
carrying out their mission.
20:13
The federal government has the right to carry out these
20:16
enforcement actions,
20:17
but there's no constitutional requirement for local authorities
20:22
to aid in that
20:23
SPEAKER_01: mission.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: But basically,
20:24
Mark Wayne Mullen is pressing this idea of withdrawing CBP and
20:30
immigration services
20:31
SPEAKER_01: from airports in these cities as a punishment,
20:33
SPEAKER_01: right?
20:34
SPEAKER_01: And
20:36
it's difficult to overrate the severeness of this disruption
20:41
the air travel system
20:42
is so interconnected and there's just no precedent for this
20:44
kind of action so let's
20:46
say you're traveling to the US and you want to visit you know
20:48
Wyoming beautiful
20:50
nature Wyoming red state it's very difficult to fly directly
20:54
into Cheyenne for
20:55
example you would have to transfer through New York or San
20:57
Francisco or Chicago
20:59
SPEAKER_01: in order to get there.
21:00
And so in effect,
21:01
this would punish all states and cities regardless of their
21:04
sanctuary policy.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: And President Trump is reportedly open to the idea.
21:08
A White House spokesperson said that he loves this kind of
21:11
creative thinking,
21:12
but a West Wing
21:14
told CNN that Secretary Mullen is,
21:16
quote,
21:17
obsessed with pushing this forward.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: So I think that it's something certainly to keep our eye on for now.
21:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
21:24
SPEAKER_02: And when you mentioned that every state is going to be affected,
21:27
SPEAKER_02: I think you threw around the term before we hit record like 70% of...
21:31
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
21:33
SPEAKER_02: What was that number again?
21:34
SPEAKER_02: 70% of flights, 70% of airports.
21:37
SPEAKER_02: What was...
21:37
SPEAKER_01: Let me break it down for you.
21:39
So seven of the top 10 airports for international arrivals
21:43
could potentially be
21:44
SPEAKER_01: affected by this.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: Those are JFK Airport in New York,
21:47
SPEAKER_01: LAX,
21:48
SPEAKER_01: San Francisco Airport,
21:49
SPEAKER_01: Newark Airport in New Jersey,
21:50
SPEAKER_01: O'Hare in Chicago,
21:52
SPEAKER_01: Hartfield in
21:52
SPEAKER_01: Atlanta and Washington Dulles here,
21:55
SPEAKER_01: which is actually in Loudoun County,
21:56
SPEAKER_01: Virginia,
21:57
SPEAKER_01: which is a sanctuary jurisdiction.
21:58
So those seven airports collectively served 125,717,479
22:02
international passengers in 2024.
22:09
that's the latest year for which data is available the total
22:11
number of incoming and
22:13
outgoing international passengers in 2024 was 180 million
22:17
104,002 meaning that
22:20
removing CBP agents from these seven airports would affect 70
22:24
percent of all
22:25
international trips it would be a massive disruption and of
22:28
course we have the FIFA
22:30
SPEAKER_01: World Cup coming up on the 7th
22:32
SPEAKER_01: is supposed to start.
22:34
And I think it's very unlikely that the administration would
22:37
impose this before
22:38
SPEAKER_01: then,
22:38
SPEAKER_01: but it's just another barrier to foreign tourism and foreign business.
22:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:44
And it reminds me of something that Ava Sasani had told us in
22:48
an interview in last
22:49
SPEAKER_02: week's episode.
22:51
Despite these tensions between sanctuary jurisdictions and the
22:54
federal government,
22:55
SPEAKER_02: it is a fact that more and more
22:57
SPEAKER_02: This Week On ICE Podcast thisweekonice
23:20
And that process is making it hard to get visibility in a lot
23:24
of incidents
23:25
SPEAKER_02: involving ICE arrests and those that they arrest.
23:29
And this 287G makes it easier and quicker for law enforcement
23:35
to be trained and
23:37
SPEAKER_02: properly indoctrinated into helping federal police.
23:40
SPEAKER_02: officials.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: So I found that really interesting and I just wanted to bring it up.
23:44
SPEAKER_02: And for any of the folks listening to this podcast,
23:47
if they're very keen on listening to more of Ava Sasani's
23:50
incredible wisdom,
23:51
SPEAKER_02: please listen to our podcast from last week.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: I have one more question for you.
23:55
SPEAKER_02: You know,
23:56
SPEAKER_02: since the start of Trump's second term,
23:58
his administration has fought back against these sanctuary
24:01
jurisdictions that
24:02
SPEAKER_02: refuse to aid his immigration agenda and
24:05
But again,
24:06
he keeps losing these lawsuits that he throws against these
24:10
jurisdictions.
24:10
Can you give us the latest on that front,
24:13
the latest lawsuits against these jurisdictions?
24:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
24:16
the Trump administration seems to be quite eager to sue these
24:20
jurisdictions,
24:21
SPEAKER_01: even though they lose.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: They lose consistently.
24:23
And the reason he loses is that the actions of these state and
24:27
local governments
24:27
SPEAKER_01: are protected by the 10th Amendment,
24:29
SPEAKER_01: right?
24:29
SPEAKER_01: The 10th Amendment is
24:31
says quote the powers not delegated to the United States by the
24:34
Constitution nor
24:35
prohibited to it by the states are reserved to the states
24:38
respectively or to the
24:39
people which essentially means that unless Congress passes a
24:42
law or there's a
24:43
constitutional amendment saying hey you you state and local
24:46
authorities have to
24:48
SPEAKER_01: cooperate with federal authorities which I think the Republicans would be
24:52
unwise to pursue that course of action to begin with,
24:55
then there's really no recourse here.
24:57
It's plain language in the Constitution that local authorities
25:00
do not have to
25:01
SPEAKER_01: assist federal authorities in carrying out their duties.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: This has been consistently upheld in court cases throughout US history.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: It's called the Commandeer Doctrine.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: Basically,
25:10
the federal government can't commandeer state and local
25:12
officials to carry out
25:14
SPEAKER_01: their policy.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: And like I said, you know,
25:16
the local officials can't block federal agents but they don't
25:19
have to help they
25:20
don't have to cooperate but let's be clear I don't think the
25:23
administration is
25:24
filing all of these lawsuits because they have any expectation
25:27
of winning this is a
25:28
SPEAKER_01: political tool this is a flag that they can wave and say hey
25:33
SPEAKER_01: Republican-based voters,
25:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:34
SPEAKER_01: we're coming after the libs in these cities and we're,
25:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:37
SPEAKER_01: attacking these sanctuary cities,
25:39
SPEAKER_01: trying to get rid of these unfair policies as they see them.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: And even though they know they will not win in the court of law,
25:46
but they'll win in the court of public opinion because when
25:48
these lawsuits fail
25:49
SPEAKER_01: because they're meritless,
25:50
they'll just blame liberal activist judges and Democratic
25:53
governors and governments
25:55
SPEAKER_01: in states and cities across the country.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: So it's a win-win as far as the Trump administration is concerned.
26:01
Absolutely I was just about to say it's really the Trump
26:03
administration's sowing of
26:05
this discontent along party lines that seems to be just as
26:09
powerful if not just as
26:10
effective as the letter of the law and so if they can continue
26:14
to you know wield
26:16
these kind of sham lawsuits that they know they're going to
26:18
lose and continue to
26:20
SPEAKER_02: inflame his base you know all the better
26:23
Absolutely We're going to take a quick break right now and when
26:25
we return we will
26:26
share an interview Kelly did with Wally Khand a photographer
26:29
who has been on the
26:30
SPEAKER_01: ground throughout the Delaney Hall protests so stick with us
26:38
SPEAKER_01: Hey folks, Matt here.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: We are in the middle of this independent launch for our show.
26:44
And the number one thing you can do to help us is share this
26:47
show with a friend.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: Send them a Spotify link,
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SPEAKER_01: send them an Apple Music link,
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26:54
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26:55
SPEAKER_01: if you would be so kind as to leave a five-star review,
26:58
that does so much to help us gain visibility and bring our
27:02
reporting out to the
27:04
SPEAKER_01: wider world.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: So if you can, we would so appreciate having your support.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
27:18
SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to This Week On ICE.
27:19
SPEAKER_02: I'm here with Wally Khan.
27:21
He is an independent documentary filmmaker and photojournalist
27:24
based in Brooklyn.
27:25
SPEAKER_02: Wally has reported for The Guardian, Vice, NPR, and The Washington Post.
27:30
SPEAKER_02: Most recently,
27:31
he has covered the protests outside of Delaney Hall in New
27:34
Jersey for Democracy
27:35
SPEAKER_02: Now!
27:36
since the start of a hunger strike initiated by over 300
27:39
detainees inside this ICE
27:41
SPEAKER_02: detention facility.
27:42
SPEAKER_02: Wally, welcome to the show.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: Hi, thank you for having me.
27:48
SPEAKER_02: Wally, what initially brought you to Delaney Hall?
27:51
SPEAKER_02: How did this get going?
27:53
SPEAKER_00: So I've covered a bunch of ICE incursions and immigration stories from
27:59
multiple cities from Minneapolis to LA to Chicago to New York
28:07
to Ohio and what I
28:11
found fascinating about the Delaney Hall situation was that
28:16
there was an action
28:18
coming from within the prison inside this concentration camp
28:24
and it was that the
28:26
SPEAKER_00: prisoners were going on a hunger strike
28:29
And what's interesting too about Delaney Hall is that last year
28:33
four people escaped
28:35
SPEAKER_00: and eventually they were caught and charged.
28:37
But I thought it was fascinating too because you could see
28:42
detainees through the
28:43
windows pumping their fists whenever protesters were chanting
28:48
that migrants
28:50
SPEAKER_00: belonged in America.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: And at the time there must have been...
28:55
maybe I would say five press people like maybe a one or two
29:02
photographers there
29:03
including me but I would just spend hours there I would spend
29:07
time talking to
29:08
SPEAKER_00: detainee family
29:09
and they would call into the detention center using their phone
29:13
and the detainees
29:15
SPEAKER_00: have tablets that they talk to their family members with.
29:18
And I interviewed detainees who were in there and have been in
29:21
there for weeks,
29:22
SPEAKER_00: some even months.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: and that night when ICE showed up,
29:29
SPEAKER_00: I think they must have been like,
29:31
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
29:31
SPEAKER_00: eight ICE agents and maybe 30,
29:35
SPEAKER_00: 40 protesters.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: When I saw that and when I photographed it,
29:40
SPEAKER_00: I knew immediately it was going to become a national story.
29:44
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
29:46
SPEAKER_02: And,
29:46
SPEAKER_02: you know,
29:47
SPEAKER_02: before we hit record,
29:48
SPEAKER_02: you had mentioned that you have been covering ICE for quite some time,
29:50
SPEAKER_02: you know,
29:51
SPEAKER_02: almost to the day,
29:52
SPEAKER_02: this time last year.
29:54
there were anti-ice protests in Los Angeles and if we all
29:57
remember there was quite
29:59
SPEAKER_02: a lot of police brutality against members of the press against protesters
30:03
SPEAKER_02: obviously against families who were the center of those ICE raids.
30:08
And then you went on to cover Minneapolis as well and other
30:11
types of flashpoints in
30:13
SPEAKER_02: President Trump's immigration agenda.
30:15
And I'm wondering where the Delaney Hall story and the protests
30:19
outside of Delaney
30:20
SPEAKER_02: Hall fits into this broader fabric from your perspective.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: How does it compare with everything else that you've seen and covered?
30:30
SPEAKER_00: This is a really good question.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: If I had to compare it to one instance of detention center protests,
30:39
SPEAKER_00: I would say it's pretty similar to Broadview,
30:42
SPEAKER_00: Illinois.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: Broadview is a town that is 10 miles or 14 miles away,
30:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember exactly,
30:49
SPEAKER_00: away from Chicago.
30:52
the same sort of thing happened people were trying to block
30:55
cars they could go all
30:56
the way up to the detention center I was early to that story as
30:59
well and there
31:01
wasn't much interest up until ICE started really brutalizing
31:05
protesters shoving
31:06
them back and they would use pepper balls and and they didn't
31:12
have batons back then
31:13
SPEAKER_00: but they would shove and they would pepper spray etc but
31:18
after that they put up a fence and I recall when the Delaney
31:22
Hall protests started
31:23
sparking like really sparking I told a colleague I was like
31:27
they're gonna put up a
31:28
fence in a week and you know and they did and then after that
31:33
in Illinois the state
31:35
troopers came in and they brutalized the protesters for ICE and
31:38
ICE stood back I
31:39
mean of course after a few days of extreme aggression from ICE
31:43
using tear gas and
31:44
SPEAKER_00: 40 millimeter rubber bullet rounds in Illinois
31:48
the state troopers would come in and they would block everybody
31:51
and they would beat
31:52
them and they had batons and it's really similar to what's
31:56
going on right now in
31:57
Delaney Hall you know we have Jersey State Police shooting at
32:02
protesters and
32:03
SPEAKER_00: journalists and so I see this pattern of people going to detention
32:09
detention centers to protest and to block cars I mean after the
32:14
protesters scuffle
32:16
with ICE and ICE brutalizes them there are fences that go up
32:22
the state police steps
32:23
in and they do ICE's job for them and people care a little less
32:27
day by day because
32:28
it's not ICE brutalizing people and that's not in the headlines
32:32
all the time it's
32:33
just regular old police violence which obviously to me is just
32:37
as bad I think
32:39
SPEAKER_00: There is a tendency to see this struggle,
32:45
SPEAKER_00: to mythologize this struggle,
32:48
SPEAKER_00: to say that we are showing up for our neighbors,
32:51
SPEAKER_00: that this resistance is noble.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: We have to look at it through a material lens.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: We have to see, you know, there have been certainly failures here.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: Functionally,
33:02
nothing has changed about the immigration system or the
33:06
enforcement at Delaney
33:07
SPEAKER_00: Hall.
33:09
we're talking about an administration that is ignoring habeas
33:14
claims disappearing
33:15
people and so when you look at that and you look at the
33:19
protests outside of Delaney
33:21
Hall it's certainly you know from this lens is not enough and
33:28
this is something
33:29
that a lot of protesters have talked to me about through
33:32
interviews and I think a
33:34
SPEAKER_00: big part of this is that people feel helpless
33:37
SPEAKER_00: And so my whole thing is that the work that I've seen truly,
33:44
SPEAKER_00: truly matters is,
33:47
SPEAKER_00: of course,
33:47
SPEAKER_00: the protesting matters.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: But as a journalist,
33:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to talk to more detainees who are inside of Delaney Hall.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to talk to families who have been affected.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: And I'm talking to journalists who have been hurt.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, I have another friend, Zach Hussain.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: He has had live rounds shot at him in Palestine.
34:07
you know he has family in the West Bank and he is you know he
34:13
also lives in
34:13
Brooklyn he's very he's one of my best friends and we went to
34:17
Delaney Hall together
34:18
SPEAKER_00: a few days ago and the cops threw a flashbang multiple flashbangs and
34:22
SPEAKER_00: is one of the most important things in his direction.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: One bounced off of him and exploded near his head.
34:28
And I was right behind him so I had hearing problems for a few
34:33
days and I still
34:34
SPEAKER_00: have this migraine.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: And his hearing is also screwed up.
34:41
As a journalist I think it's important for me to document all
34:44
this specific
34:45
violence but there's also the entire aspect of immigration
34:48
reporting that you know
34:51
there's still violence in our lives but it doesn't need to be
34:53
in frame all the time
34:55
SPEAKER_00: and I think
34:56
SPEAKER_00: I worry,
34:57
SPEAKER_00: I really worry that not just that Americans could get used to this,
35:01
SPEAKER_00: but that they just will start seeing migrants as a number.
35:05
SPEAKER_00: How many people are in this detention center?
35:08
SPEAKER_00: How many people are still striking?
35:11
SPEAKER_00: There are real people who are in there with entire lives.
35:15
So that's my main thing as a reporter is that I'm trying to
35:19
photograph something
35:20
SPEAKER_00: that I can photograph because somebody trusted me with this.
35:25
But I wouldn't have it any other way about also covering the
35:28
state violence that
35:29
SPEAKER_00: has been happening outside of Delaney Hall.
35:31
As to whether or not there is going to be a next evolution of
35:36
this,
35:36
I think this could backfire.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: Transferring different detainees who are hunger striking
35:40
I'm not sure I think we're looking at a pretty bleak outlook
35:43
here because there is
35:44
SPEAKER_00: just this them ignoring the rule of law
36:10
and there has been sincere but yet still ineffective resistance
36:17
outside of Delaney Hall.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: But I still think that people have to try.
36:24
I just want to end off with a story like just a small story
36:28
that I heard outside of
36:29
Delaney Hall There was this girl Clara she was graduating I
36:35
think she graduates
36:36
high school this week she had her prom last week her mother is
36:40
in there in Delaney
36:43
Hall and I remember talking to her mother in there and Clara
36:47
was holding the phone
36:49
and she was crying and I talked to all the cellmates and
36:54
Clara's father has
36:56
immigration appointments soon and they're all really worried
37:00
but I think Clara just
37:01
wants her mother out so that she can see her and it's just
37:09
heartbreaking and I hope
37:12
SPEAKER_00: more people try to get in touch with detainees who are in there because
37:18
SPEAKER_00: because we don't know what's going to happen to them.
37:22
SPEAKER_02: Wally Khan, thank you so much for your time.
37:24
I really appreciate it and best of luck as you continue to
37:27
cover this story.
37:28
SPEAKER_00: Great.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: Thank you to Wally Khan.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: That's it for us this week.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
37:34
You can reach us at thisweekonice at gmail.com with questions,
37:38
comments,
37:39
tips.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: If you like this podcast, please go ahead and share it with a friend.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: Stay safe.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: Look out for your neighbors and we'll see you next time.