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Ask an Expert (with Jennifer Harshman, Editor) · The Daily Writer

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever wondered where you could find an expert who could answer all your burning questions about writing, editing, books, productivity, and related topics?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, look no further.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is the first installment of a periodic series called Ask an Expert.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: And today we're tackling questions related to editing.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hello my friend.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is Kent Sanders from Equal Ghostwriting.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to this episode of the Smart Business Writing Podcast.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is a show that helps you grow your business, amplify your authority, and increase your impact through the power of writing.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: As always, I really appreciate you joining me today, and I'm excited about this episode because this is the first installment of an ongoing series.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: And today's guest is my good friend Jennifer Harchman, who is owner of Harchman Services.com.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Jennifer is a successful and well-known editor, author, ghostwriter, and business owner.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: She's also the editor of the book called Find a Real Editor, Avoiding Deposers and Scammers, which is a helpful guide to evaluating editors for your writing.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: As I described to a mutual friend of ours recently, whenever you talk to Jennifer, you'd better have a pen and paper ready because she has a lot of creative ideas.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you're going to have a lot of fun today as you hear her wisdom on a few different topics.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: She's going to help you to learn about the different types of editing and why you need each one, how to be a great client, how to evaluate an editor, and much more.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get right to the conversation with Jennifer Harchman.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Jennifer Harchman, welcome to the Smart Business Writing Podcast.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so thankful that this is the inaugural episode of a series that we're doing called Ask an Editor.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: So this will be a monthly segment.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for joining me.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited we could do this.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: I am excited about doing it also.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I am calling this Ask an Editor.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: However, you are much, much more than an editor.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I even hesitate to label you as an editor because your your skill set range is so much wider than someone who just does that one task.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: But you got to put a label on something.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: So uh if I gotta call it something, I'm gonna call it ask an editor.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: So let's dive in to uh the topic of this new book that you have out that's a free resource, uh free resource for people.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's called How to Find a Real Editor.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I would love to dig into this book um on this conversation and on this episode because the story behind why you wrote this book is so fascinating.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just gonna kind of let you loose to tell us what this book is about and how it can help us, first of all.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: So um it is available on my website as a free download.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's also on Amazon.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: We're trying to get it set to permafree, but right now I think it's still listed at 99 cents.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: So um, if people want to get it for free, they can go to my site and you I'm sure you have that in the show notes.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'll give you the link.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: So the way that it came about was, you know, I've worked with authors for the last decade full time, and so many people had come to me after they had gone to someone else and they had not received the results they wanted.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Some of them were out and out scammed and were very hesitant to move forward with a new editor.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I was also seeing in the various groups that I'm in, writers' groups and editors' groups online, was seeing so many people who were complaining about the same types of things.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: And even people who were advertising that they did this, you know, they would do their um editing for an author for such a low rate that when I did the math, I realized there's no way they can make a living doing this.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's no way unless, but you know, they they keep doing it, so they've got to be doing it somehow.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so I asked one of them, just you know, very politely, said, Can you help me understand how you can make a living with such a low rate?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, sure, it's easy.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: And he was very proud of the way he's he's running things.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he let me know that he would just take a manuscript, run it through a software program, and send it back to the author.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: And that would be just a couple of minutes of his time.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: And if they complained that, hey, this still has errors in it, or I published this and I got a lot of bad reviews because of poor editing, then he would run it through another software program and send it back.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, repeat add-in to an item until they either demanded their money back, like when he ran out of programs, he would finally give them a refund, or just ignore them and block them on social media, things like that, so that he didn't feel pestered anymore.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: And he was doing this to 10 books per day.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: So raking in about$2,500 per day, living high on the hog.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: He had this fabulous lifestyle he was so proud of.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I wondered how he could even sleep at night.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's insane.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: It is insane.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: I totally agree.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and at first I thought he's an outlier, right?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: He's he's gotta be the only person who's doing this kind of thing.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: But as I looked into it more, I found out that really he's not.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Other people aren't doing it maybe to his scale, but they are still doing bargain basement prices, and all they're doing is running a book through a couple of software programs and leaving tons of errors.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: They don't have the skills to actually go through and edit it.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I'm not saying that using some software in your editing process is bad.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: I have some programs that I use that help me to do, you know, mass find and replace, for example, that will help me to fix a large number of errors in a short amount of time.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: But nothing replaces a skilled editor's eyes on every single word in your book.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I was seeing all of this happening, and after that conversation with that man, I was livid.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I posted on Facebook that I was going to do something about this.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: I was sick as sick and tired of seeing it, and I was going to do something about it.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna write a book that would help people find a real editor and avoid the posers and scammers.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: And several of my colleagues commented that they would love to be part of that and contribute to that.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: So a collaboration came out of it and would put that book together.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: So let's do a little bit of education here for our listeners.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say uh someone comes to you with a 50,000-word nonfiction business or personal development book, very standard length of a nonfiction book.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: What is involved on in on your end on editing that book?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: How much time on average does something like that take?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And what is a general ballpark range of what someone would expect to pay in the real world for really good editing for that type of book?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I love that question.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: So it's going to depend on what type of editing is needed and the extent to which that editing is needed.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Most books need more than one type of editing.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: So if we start at the top level, that's developmental, and that's where I'm gonna give you my word analogy or word picture.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Put yourself in a commercial airliner flying over the Midwestern United States.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: You look down out the window and you can see colored patches on the ground.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: So you can tell that their fields probably growing some different crops, but you have no idea what those crops might be.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: So that's developmental editing.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's where we're looking at the big picture, the 30,000-foot view of your book.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: Is it on topic?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Do these chapters belong?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: Are the chapters in the right order?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: All of those types of large items that you want to look at.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: And for that, a ballpark figure is about 10 cents per word.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: That is the longest phase of editing.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of back and forth between the developmental editor and the author because you're working out all of those, you know, big structural things.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then uh the next level down would be, say, a crop duster, um, an airplane that's you know 10, 20 feet over the top of the field.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: You can definitely tell that this is a cornfield.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: You could probably guess about how many acres, but you're not counting individual plants.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: You just can't see it from that level.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: And that's line editing.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where we look at the language that's used, wording, phrasing.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: You look at each line in the book and see is that sentence clear?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: Does it fit within its paragraph?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: Does the paragraph fit within the chapter?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: All of those, you know, it's kind of a hybrid between the developmental editing and the mechanical.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then copy editing is where you're walking through the field, and if you wanted to count every plant, you could, you're looking at every word.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: Is this word spelled correctly?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Is it used correctly?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: Is it punctuated correctly?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Those types of things.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what most people think of when they think of editing.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's usually copy editing, is what they're talking about there.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: And every single piece needs that book, blog post, whatever.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: All writing is going to need copy editing.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then proofreading is where we look at every individual character.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: So if you were to, you know, shuck one of those ears of corn, and you could look at every single kernel if you wanted to.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: So copy editing is in the ballpark of three to eight cents per word.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: And proofreading is in the ballpark of three to five cents per word.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm writing this down, that's why there's a slight pause here.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: The audio has not gone out for everybody who's listening.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: So then when you provide uh your editing services for a book, are all those included in one price, or how does that typically work?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Are they separated or how does that work there?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, typically you want a different person doing each of those things because they all involve a different type of thinking.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it's very rare to find one person who can do it all.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: I once in a while will do it all.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: It depends on the book, but usually I have different people on my team doing different aspects of it.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: So most people, you're going to want to find a different person for each thing, unless you can find an agency that does all of it, and they'll have different people in place to do each piece.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: So if I came to you with a 50,000-word nonfiction personal development book, you would be able to do all those within your agency.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: And one thing that I do that other people don't do not expect to find this in other places.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um ordinarily, you're going to pay each of the prices, so 10 cents per word for the developmental phase, five to five to eight percent, you know, five to eight cents per word for the copy editing phase.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so, of course, that stuff adds up and it adds up really fast.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that I really like to do is get people what they want and what they need when they need it, and not price it so that it's so far out of the range, because wow, you know, that that can add up so fast.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: So what I do is whatever level they need, whether it's you know, if they need development, then they'll get line, copy, and proof all included.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't add up those prices.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: I just go with the top level.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: If they don't need development, then say they just need copy editing and proof, then I just charge for the copy editing and I include the proofreading.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone needed developmental editing and on down, it's going to be in the range of probably$5,000 for a$50,000 a word book.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Give or take, obviously.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now most people would probably balk at that figure.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: People well, let me say this.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: People who are not in the book world, who've not written a book before, they're not looking at their book as a business, they would go,$5,000?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's insane.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: But can you, for those who are not in the know about this kind of stuff, can you talk about the difference between putting a book out that has not really been through that process, maybe it's just been run through a spell check, as is, versus a book that has been edited by by professionals on all those different levels.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: What is the difference between those two final products?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: The difference between those I know that's a big question, but it it is.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um so to put it in a visual way, the difference between those two would be the difference between the little piece of pottery that your kindergartner brought home for you and a fine piece you would buy in a gallery.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great analogy.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: I've never heard that before, that but that totally makes sense.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, both of them function.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: You can you can put something into each little vase, um, but if you want it to really serve its purpose and serve its purpose well, then you want to make sure that you're crafting it in a way that will allow it to do that.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you primarily work with authors who are using their book as a business tool?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you do you also work with a lot of people who let's say, for example, they want to do a memoir that's just to hand on to their grandkids, that type of thing?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you mostly do books that are geared toward helping to build a business?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: There is a mix, but I would definitely say probably I would say 75% or so of the books that I work with are business focused, um, business or purpose focused.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, sometimes it's to get a message out there.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's not necessarily going to make the author any money.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's not necessarily connected to their business, but something that has that self-help type of approach, things like that.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: Once in a while we'll do a memoir and we do do some fiction also.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: So primarily you're working with people who view expenses such as editing, cover design, those kinds of things.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's not really an expense, it's really an investment in their business because if you have a great product at the end, that's going to speak well of your business.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to reach more people, people are going to recommend it more.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's just going to be way, way, way better than if you have a book that is cruddy and not edited and not written very well because that's actually going to hurt your business.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: They do look at it as an investment.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that I tell authors, especially if this is their first time, is don't expect to make any money off of your book sales.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: Don't make any money directly from your book.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: It is a tool and it opens doors.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: And after you've opened those doors, that's where you're going to find your money-making opportunities.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: So it might be through coaching, it might be through public speaking engagements, it might be through jobs that you land because you wrote the book on the subject.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: There are so many different things that people can do, but absolutely they need to look at it as an investment in their future.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say you have two people that you know.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to think of anybody specific with this, but let's just say, for the sake of argument, you have two people who are equal in their skills.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they're a coach or a consultant or a speaker.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: They they're great at what they do.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: One person has a book and the other person doesn't.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: What are what are the opportunities that person A, who has a great book that's been professionally edited and produced and written, what kind of opportunities will that person have that person B will not have if they don't have a book?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, probably ten times the opportunities.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: And one thing that surprises authors and is not a very popular thing among editors for me to say is that even though that book serves as a giant business card and it opens the door, chances are the people that you hand your book to won't read it.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: They're not going to read, they might flip through it a little bit, they'll look at it and wow, and be really impressed by the fact that you wrote a book, but a lot of them are not going to spend the time to read it.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: They're going to put it on their shelf, and every time they see it, they're going to think of you.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's fascinating.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'd never heard that perspective before.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're exactly right.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, uh people who are listening to this conversation cannot see this, but you're seeing behind me there's shelves full of books.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm seeing you.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: You've got shelves full full of books behind you.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Probably you've not read every single one of those books in full.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Would I be accurate in assuming that?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: You are accurate.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: The couple that are behind me are the one are some of the books that I have edited.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: And um, the lower shelf is all family education types of things.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so some of them we use as reference.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: You might pull out and you you know check a couple of things, but I definitely have not read them all in their environment.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Me, me either.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Me either.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: I do think that's an important distinction, though, in thinking about what does a book do for you and what is the value of having a book.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's and I know it sounds so counterintuitive, but the value of having a good book is not necessarily so that everybody will read the book.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's something to be said for just the fact that you have a book, regardless of what your message or content is.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: I know to some people they hate that idea because they're like, oh, I've spent years working on this book and it like represents my heart and my soul and all that stuff, which is true.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: But there's definitely something valuable about just having a nice looking book that has a good cover, by the way, that is important.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that just it just says this person is an authority on this topic.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's still something very magical about having a book in today's culture.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, there is.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: And even if it's ghostwritten, and that's some sometimes people will think, well, I I have to write it for it to do me some good in my business.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: And you don't necessarily have to be the one who writes the book for it to serve you in your business.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a perfect place for ghostwriting, and it it can be very helpful.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I'm going to not only say amen to that, we're gonna sing uh a decision song, we're gonna come down the aisle and you know get healing.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just kidding.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my my church reference, you know.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're all gonna have a come to Jesus moment.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I could not agree with that more.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And as a ghostwriter myself, I totally agree with the idea that not everybody should be writing a book.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: There are people who are very successful business people who are strategic, they're great thinkers, uh they're great networkers, and they have gifts that are not necessarily writing content.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, the best use of their time is not to spend 300 hours writing a book that they're gonna struggle through and hate the process.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Man, work with a ghostwriter, work with a development editor that can help you with that process for sure.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely stick with your strengths and bring in people that are good at the things that you're not good at.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: And not everybody can be good at everything.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm there are certain kinds of uh in fact, I'm working with someone right now, I'm very heavily involved in their book as a developmental editor, but I'm not good with proofreading and copy editing.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's just not where my strength is.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't enjoy it.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just I'm not really that good at it.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I love the the big picture kinds of things.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when it comes to the people that you work with, what are the things that you really, really are good at and really enjoy doing?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And what are the what are the things that you don't find a great amount of pleasure in as an editor?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things I really love is helping people to brainstorm, to mind map, and plan out what they're going to do.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: So those are all developmental aspects.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: But some of the aspects of developmental editing I like to hand off to other people.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: So when it comes to chapter organization, you know, smaller scale types of things that go into the developmental bucket, those things I don't like as much.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then I like being the final eyes on a piece because typos have always just jumped out at me.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: And that's one of the things.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I I am on both ends of the spectrum.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then copy editing is fine.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can do that in my sleep.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: I've been doing it for years, but it doesn't really spark me and energize me.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's one of those things like, yes, I'm very good at it, but it's not something that I totally love to do.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: So when is it feasible for me to hand that to someone else?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: I do.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was an interesting experience when I wrote my last book, The Artist Suit Case, which has been too many years ago.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm working on the next one, I promise.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: I know every writer says that I'm working, I'm gonna work on the next one.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: But it was so fascinating because I had been over the chapters dozens of times.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'd run them through software.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'd gotten them in as good shape as I could.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I sent it out to a team of beta readers, it's just shocking and a little bit discouraging when you get those those comments back like, hey, you've got a typo in this page.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Hundreds of typos and grammar mistakes and I mean all kinds of stuff.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's just absolutely shocking the things that you miss when you try to edit your own work.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got to have professionals and other people looking at your work.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot edit your own stuff well.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that is absolutely correct.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: There's something called error blindness.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just a fancy word for saying that you overlook your own mistakes.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: You you don't really see them because you know what you meant to write there.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: So when you're reading through it, your brain will automatically correct it for you, and you'll read the word that really isn't there and talk.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Totally miss the fact that there's an error in that print.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one of the reasons that you need to make sure you get somebody else to look at it, and preferably someone who doesn't know your topic very well.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: Someone who's close to you, your wife, for example, they know what you're putting in your book and they might have the same error blindness.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: So if it's someone who's not very familiar, then they can read it.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: They'll catch more of those errors, and they'll also ask you questions that will show where you have missed some things material-wise, because you have the curse of knowledge.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know your topic really well.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: You've lived it for years, you've been working in this field for a long time, and that's why you decided to write a book about it.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: But you don't remember what it's like to be a beginner.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: You don't remember what it's like to know nothing about this.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so you're going to assume that your reader has certain knowledge that they may or may not have.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: So if you bring somebody in from outside and they're not familiar with your industry, they're going to ask you questions and you're going to be like, oh my gosh, I didn't even know that I didn't address that in this book.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes that can kind of send you back to the drawing board a little bit.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Man, that whole that whole curse of of knowing what you do really well and knowing that topic or subject really can be harmful because you don't know what you you don't know what you learned 10 or 15 years ago.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's so ingrained within you, you don't have the capacity to understand what it's like to be a beginner.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that is really uh a key thing.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Jennifer, this has been a blast.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I've really enjoyed this, and um I'm looking forward to some more episodes that we have coming up where we're gonna dive into some of the intricacies and probably a little bit of the the weirdness and oddness that is part of the whole book and author world.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um but that's what we love about it.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that is just what we love about it.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: All the cool things and sometimes the arcane and strange parts of being a writer and editor and a person who's involved with helping others get their content and their ideas out into the world.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Where can our listeners uh find out more about your work and get in touch with you about your services?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um they can email me if they'd like.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's Jennifer at Harshmanservices.com.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: And Harshmanservices.com is my main website.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: You can also find me on Facebook.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: I usually have my tab open most of the day.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll have all that in the show notes.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And can they get your free book there as well, or should I include an Amazon link?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um either way would be fine.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'll make sure you have the link to the page where they can download it from my site for free.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, very cool.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Jennifer, thanks again.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: This has been a blast, and I'm really excited about this new series that we're doing.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: This is so helpful, and I'm really glad that you are our in-house editing expert.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me, Kent.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: It is an absolute pleasure.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I hope you enjoyed that conversation.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: I learned several things from Jennifer, as I always do, and I encourage you to check out her book called Find a Real Editor, and also check out her website, harchmanservices.com.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Jennifer is a fantastic editor, and I know she'd love to chat with you about your upcoming project, whether it's a book, articles, or some other type of content that you're producing.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: And plus, on top of that, she's just a really cool and fun person to hang out with.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, Jennifer, thanks so much for taking the time to do this interview.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And for you who uh and for our listeners, remember that you can find lots of resources for writers at KentSanders.net.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, remember that your writing has the power to change people's lives.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'll see you in the next episode.