Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 854: Dogs That Hunt Humans

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Ep. 854: Dogs That Hunt Humans · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
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  Speaker 1: dot com. That's f I R S T L I
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  Speaker 1: t E dot com. Join today by Doug Roller, who
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: was the chief trainer for l A p D Los
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  Speaker 1: Angeles Police Departments K nine Unit.
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  Speaker 2: Doug's been his career working with.
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  Speaker 1: This is a big important point, apprehension dogs meaning dogs
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  Speaker 1: that catch people. So in the dog world you got
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  Speaker 1: detection dogs, guns, drugs whatever. You got tracking dogs which
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  Speaker 1: could be used as like rescue dogs to track people
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  Speaker 1: lost out in the woods. But his career is in
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  Speaker 1: using dogs to appre hend folks. He was a handler
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  Speaker 1: for seven years, then spent seventeen years as the head
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  Speaker 1: trainer working with apprehension dogs. I met Doug a couple
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  Speaker 1: months ago. YEP I was at I was with a
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  Speaker 1: friend of mine, Shane Yeats has been on the show before.
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  Speaker 1: I was hanging out in a setting very similar to
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  Speaker 1: this on a couple of couches in a living room,
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  Speaker 1: and Doug was kind of blowing my mind with this
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  Speaker 1: whole world of dog use in dog training that I
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  Speaker 1: was unfamiliar with. So we're gonna kind of recreate that
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  Speaker 1: conversation about just an intricate, very detailed, in depth use
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  Speaker 1: of dogs. It kind of that kind of blows your
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  Speaker 1: mind before we get into the police work, which is fascinating, man,
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  Speaker 1: in the and the dot and the training and all that.
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  Speaker 2: I want to talk about your background a little bit.
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  Speaker 1: I didn't we didn't talk about this when I met you, right,
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  Speaker 1: but but Krinn was telling me that that you got
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  Speaker 1: one of your initial introductions dog to work in with.
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  Speaker 1: Sorry that one of your introductions not even to dogs.
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  Speaker 1: What am I saying? You were in the falconry.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Train, I guess in training or whatever. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's come up before when I've talked to people, like,
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  Speaker 3: you know, they'll say, like, you know what drew you?
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  Speaker 3: I don't know. You know, you're raised and uh, I
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  Speaker 3: was raised in a family that was very loved animals
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  Speaker 3: and the outdoors and all that. There's a lot of camping,
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  Speaker 3: and I don't even know how it happened, but I
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  Speaker 3: I guess I had parents also that you know, did
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  Speaker 3: the right thing and allowed me to go directions that
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  Speaker 3: they saw, but that maybe was not instinctual, but I
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  Speaker 3: gravitated toward that. And I remember getting my first falcon.
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  Speaker 3: It was a little tiny falconet that I bought at
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  Speaker 3: the pet shop. They bought for me. It's a little
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  Speaker 3: from India's smallest falcon in the world, and I had
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  Speaker 3: it. It was like a pet, and it ended up dying
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  Speaker 3: on me because I didn't take care of it properly.
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  Speaker 3: But then I started reading. I got into all the books,
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  Speaker 3: and I was very young at the time. And then
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  Speaker 3: I got into birds of prey and trapping them and
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  Speaker 3: catching them and got my falcon's license in California. Oh,
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  Speaker 3: and I was a very young age. I was probably
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  Speaker 3: about thirteen. I couldn't even drive yet. But because I
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  Speaker 3: got so much into it, I was on the verge
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  Speaker 3: of getting my master falcon's license at a really young age.
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  Speaker 3: And then the fishing game got a hold of me.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know how that occurred. I think he just
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: came over to approve my meuse and my equipment, and
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  Speaker 3: he said, hey, we need to rehab rehab birds once
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  Speaker 3: in a while that were injured or mistreated whatever, birds
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  Speaker 3: of prey. Would you be interested And of course I'm
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  Speaker 3: my kid, Oh yeah, that'd be great. So they started
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  Speaker 3: bringing me birds to rehab, you know, like Cooper redtails,
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: you know, sometimes a prairie falcon in that area, so
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  Speaker 3: that that actually fuel that. But then I got very
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  Speaker 3: much intoto. I joined the Falconer's Club and I got
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  Speaker 3: really into falconry. And then some of my buddies in
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  Speaker 3: high school we all got into it. And I got
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  Speaker 3: guys right now that I kind of lost touch with,
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  Speaker 3: but they're really into it. I mean, I left it
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  Speaker 3: because I my life went to another direction, you know,
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  Speaker 3: I got to police work, got under the dog thing.
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  Speaker 1: But you were you were tuned up on trained up
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  Speaker 1: and kind of like mentally trained up on working with
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  Speaker 1: animal and I.
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  Speaker 3: And not only that, it was like being able to
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  Speaker 3: utilize an animal in the in the natural environment and
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  Speaker 3: hunt prey. There's something really neat about that, Like there's
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  Speaker 3: certain there are certain birds you you go hunting with.
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  Speaker 3: You hunt from the fist, you know, you you like
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  Speaker 3: a gossawk, you're gonna you're gonna look for jack rabbits
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  Speaker 3: or bunnies or whatever, and you got to have the
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  Speaker 3: dog approperly trained. They came out of the bird approperly
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  Speaker 3: trained for that. But then you also have the fat falcons,
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  Speaker 3: which are taught to hunt from the stoop, so you
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  Speaker 3: actually teach them to wait on you. There's involved like
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  Speaker 3: bird dogs. Bird dogs will flush the game. Your prayer
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  Speaker 3: grene or your prairie falcon will come up and stoop
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  Speaker 3: down and take them out. Got it. And then these
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  Speaker 3: guys put transmitters on their birds and everything else. Because
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  Speaker 3: some of these stoops can last go for miles. You
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  Speaker 3: want to lose your bird, so you got to track
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  Speaker 3: them down there he is with the duck or the
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  Speaker 3: grouse or whatever, you know, a mile away. So it's
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  Speaker 3: pretty neat stuff though when you really get into it,
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  Speaker 3: At least for me, it.
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  Speaker 2: Was what made you. What was your decision process and
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  Speaker 2: becoming a cop.
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  Speaker 3: That's kind of that's interesting too, because I had no
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  Speaker 3: I had no thought about being a police officer. I
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  Speaker 3: was selling real estate. I was nineteen. I was making
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  Speaker 3: a ton of money. I was doing buying and selling
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  Speaker 3: foreclosure houses, fixing them up, probably on my way to
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  Speaker 3: making a lot of money. You know, I had like
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  Speaker 3: mental properties and all this other stuff. When I was
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: nineteen twenty years old, I had some investors I was
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  Speaker 3: working with. So one day this buddy of mine says, hey,
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: once't come in a ride along with lapd And I
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  Speaker 3: even lost track of this guy. But it was somebody
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  Speaker 3: I knew at the time. So he worked southeast, which
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  Speaker 3: is a you know, the Watts area, very busy, very violent,
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  Speaker 3: and of course I rode with a sergeant and I
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  Speaker 3: got hooked. I go, this is neat, this is like
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  Speaker 3: I mean, for me, it just was really you know,
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  Speaker 3: it was an adrenaline rush, dangerous. I'm seeing a world
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  Speaker 3: that I never was exposed to. I mean, I'm upper
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  Speaker 3: middle class, you know, white boy growing up in southern California.
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  Speaker 3: Here I am in a really bad area. But I
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  Speaker 3: liked it so for the heck of it. And you
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  Speaker 3: bring up so many memories. God, I was married with
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  Speaker 3: my first wife and she just didn't like that, but
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  Speaker 3: I went ahead through it. She did not think she
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  Speaker 3: was gonna be married to a cop, but I went in.
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  Speaker 2: I put in like this caught her by surprise.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, she just wasn't like we are not going there
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  Speaker 3: type thing. Anyway, that's another story. But I put in
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  Speaker 3: for the application in September and shockingly I was accepted
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  Speaker 3: and I was already getting ready to go into a
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  Speaker 3: class in December, which is pretty fast. And yeah, the
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  Speaker 3: rest is history.
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  Speaker 2: So and you got right into dog work.
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  Speaker 3: No, I didn't. LAPD is a big department at the time,
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  Speaker 3: was about sixty five hundred cops. Now it's about ten thousand.
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  Speaker 3: But now they're you're losing guys left and right for
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  Speaker 3: all the nonsense going on. So they get into a
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  Speaker 3: canine unit with LA. Canine wasn't There's a division in
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  Speaker 3: LA called Metro. Metro has SWAT mounted unit, a bing
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  Speaker 3: C platoon and then canine. But when I got on,
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  Speaker 3: young Canine was off doing their own thing. They weren't
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  Speaker 3: in a specialized unit. So back in the old canine
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  Speaker 3: there was when it started, like in the late seventies
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  Speaker 3: by two guys, Sergeant Mooringen and a guy named darniell Nell.
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  Speaker 3: It blew up. I mean a lot of departments in
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  Speaker 3: the in the country had canines, but LA didn't. And
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  Speaker 3: these guys were like the fathers of our canine unit,
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  Speaker 3: and they went out and research, did a lot of work,
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  Speaker 3: got the unit going, and they were housed out of
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  Speaker 3: West La Division and they wanted to be part of
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  Speaker 3: air support. They did not want to go to Metro.
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  Speaker 3: There was a lot of ego stuff going on. But
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  Speaker 3: as the unit grew with to like four or five handlers,
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  Speaker 3: these guys are getting into shootings like a lot more
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  Speaker 3: than SIS, more than some of the other specialized units.
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  Speaker 3: Because they're hunting down armed suspects all the time, and
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  Speaker 3: there was a lot of violence back then.
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  Speaker 1: The canine handlers are finding themselves in more shooting incidents.
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  Speaker 3: Probably they were getting more shootings back then than any
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  Speaker 3: unit in the in the department, got it the department
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  Speaker 3: chief cases, you know, what's going on here? You know,
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  Speaker 3: we we need to put this this unit into Metro.
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  Speaker 3: And you know, there was always the perception like what
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  Speaker 3: are they doing here? Where? Why are all these shootings occurring?
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  Speaker 3: Even back then, you know, are these guys a bunch
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  Speaker 3: of cowboys whatever? But I don't think it was that.
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  Speaker 3: I think it was more like, you know, back in
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  Speaker 3: the late eighties, it was a really violent time. It
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  Speaker 3: was like you know, the stats people talk about crime
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  Speaker 3: and where it is now. But back then, I mean,
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  Speaker 3: just as an example, there was about one of some
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  Speaker 3: of the years there was a twenty two to twenty
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  Speaker 3: three hundred homicides in La lapd alone, and now for
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  Speaker 3: the whole city, and now you're lucky to break one
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  Speaker 3: hundred hundred and thirty. So look at the exponentially.
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  Speaker 1: That's the thing about like crime statistics get manipulated so long. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: like people have this perception that this perception that nowadays
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  Speaker 1: crime is so bad, but when you look at like
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  Speaker 1: crime trends, it's really not.
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  Speaker 3: It's not. They have even cops that I've worked with
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  Speaker 3: that are new, they can't even believe the numbers. I'll
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  Speaker 3: throw out the amount of searches that I did for example.
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  Speaker 3: You know in canine, it just you don't hear about
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  Speaker 3: those numbers. That's why our dogs were so for a
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  Speaker 3: training word, seasoned. They were so good at what they
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  Speaker 3: did because they had so much action in those days.
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  Speaker 3: But back to that, so when I put in for
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: the unit for Canine, I put in for Metro too,
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: because at the time they were in that crossroads, like
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  Speaker 3: they're going to bring you to Metro first and then
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  Speaker 3: you get selected to canine. Well, back then, I was
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  Speaker 3: the last group of guys that came in straight from patrol.
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  Speaker 3: I was working Rampart, very busy division, and then I
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: went straight to canine. And then things evolved after that
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  Speaker 3: where you had to go to Metro, do about a
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: year in Metro and then be able to put in
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: for canine or SWAT. And now they're called high risk positions.
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  Speaker 2: Where you actually get Canine is a high risk position.
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  Speaker 3: Just like SWAT, you get more money, you get hazard pay,
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  Speaker 3: you get a take home car because you know it's deserved,
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  Speaker 3: I guess. But that's that history of that, so you
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  Speaker 3: know I did. It was a process. I got in
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  Speaker 3: and I got in pretty young. I got in less
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  Speaker 3: than five years on the job, which is pretty young
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  Speaker 3: for that kind of a U. L A. Yeah. I
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  Speaker 3: mean guys in other departments they might get in after
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  Speaker 3: a year or two, but in LA it's it's a
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  Speaker 3: lot more competitive, the expectations are a lot higher. All
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: that stuff good, bad are indifferent.
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  Speaker 1: Let's jump to some definitions here. Explain to folks what
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  Speaker 1: an apprehension dog is in that like juxtaposed to a
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  Speaker 1: detection dog, a tracking dog like. Explain that specific term.
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  Speaker 3: Well in where I you know, my shot are claim
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  Speaker 3: to fame in LAPD canine. Now, within lap D, there
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  Speaker 3: are several canine units that are separate from metro canine.
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  Speaker 3: So you've have metro canine, which is the apprehension dog.
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  Speaker 3: The dogs that actually are are taught to search, find
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  Speaker 3: suspects and if needed, they'll bite them. LAPD still has
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: a policy of finding bark, which not a big fan
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: of and you know, I hate to say that, but
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  Speaker 3: I'm just not a big fan of it. As things
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: have evolved and we can get into that later.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, we got to come back to bite
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: and bark. Yeah, that's a big deal because people an't
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: going to know what that means.
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  Speaker 3: They won't. They won't and then it needs to be explained.
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  Speaker 3: But that being said, that's metro and we have done
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  Speaker 3: some tracking in the past. We put a lot of
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: time and effort into it. I did a lot of
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  Speaker 3: experiment with the tracking dogs. It's very time consuming and
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  Speaker 3: it works. But the problem is we just don't have
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  Speaker 3: the environment for that. You know, most of our searches,
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: the vast majority, are going to be containments like a
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  Speaker 3: perimeter search. You know, we lock down a block, two blocks,
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  Speaker 3: three blocks, or a building or a warehouse, and then
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  Speaker 3: we systematically clear it numerous dogs sometimes oh really yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And then then you have the detection dogs, and for
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  Speaker 3: most apartments, that's for most apartments because of money and economics,
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  Speaker 3: they'll have what's called dual purpose dogs. That means these
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  Speaker 3: dogs also are apprehension dogs, but they'll also find narcotics
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: or firearms or bombs. And you know, you can't do
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: more more than one odor with one dog. And we
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: can talk about that a little bit, like I can't
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: have a dog that's trained to find narcotics, find bombs.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: Really no, it can't be done, shouldn't be done, because
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: it's just not there's legalities of it. You know, what's
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: my dog really hitting on? That's why.
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  Speaker 1: So when you see it, if you're in the airport
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  Speaker 1: and it just happens to me, there's a dog day,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: there's a guy in the airport. That dog isn't looking
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: for everything. That dog's looking for a thing.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, And there's that's another whole discussion. They have what's
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: called vapor wake dogs now where the dogs are taught
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  Speaker 3: to just scan by people as they're walking and they'll
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: alert on them for maybe narcotics or maybe bombs, depending
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: what he's trained for. But you're never going to know.
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: And you know, it's it's funny because back in the
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: nineties early nineties, before vapor wake was ever termed, we
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: were already experimenting with that with what with dogs that
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: were taught to go ahead and detect odor by following
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: somebody like an action instead of just pinpointing odor at
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: a specific location. They were taught to find and follow.
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: So a guy would be in the crowd walk and
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: I'll say, dog would alert show a body a change
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: of behavior and start following that person, and then you
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: could have time to go ahead and do what you're
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: going to do.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Man, Okay, we got a lot of balls in your
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: because I knowing I want to talk about yeah, because
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: when we talk before, you talking about the difference between
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: a dog whose noses on the ground and a dog
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: whose noses in the air but APPREHENDI so back to
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: it's all stuff I want to talk about.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I said, you got to keep guiding me here,
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: so because there's so much that No.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: This is it's it's I want to talk about this stuff.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Like I first want to just clarify.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: Like what you mean by apprehension, how it's different than
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: a track.
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: And right in my world now a tracking dog is
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: an apprehension dog too. But basically, these dogs are trained
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: to find and locate, whether it's tracking or air sending,
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: to go ahead and find somebody and bite them if
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: necessary or not bite them, depending on the circumstances. And
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: we can talk about that. You know, a lot everybody's
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: got different methods. I train a certain methods that's a
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: little bit unique, not as unique as it used to be,
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: because a lot of the a lot of I think
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: teams are catching onto the when we search an l
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: A p D. And a lot of units that I
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: work with now with my business, I teach what's called
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: off lead searching and we utilize this tool, this electric
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: caller here and some of your audience, I'm sure it's
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: familiar with it.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all my bodies to have the trained dogs and.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: The gob fifty or whatever they use, and that's what
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: we use primarily, that's what I like. But our dogs
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: are taught to primarily air scent and find the suspect,
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: you know, pinpoint the odor, change of behavior, bark at
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: the odor, let us know, the guys inside that cupboard
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: or that shit or whatever. That's primarily what we do
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: because of our environment. There's some guys like out here
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: in Montana, they do a lot of tracking. They do both,
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: and they'll actually hit a track and you know, they
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: might be in the track for a half mile or
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: a mile and find a guy in some bushes in
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: a creekside, or maybe attracts to a building and then
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: they turn into the But they do apprehend too, so
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: at the end of the track they have a chance
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: to maybe take the guy into custody with no force.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: Maybe he takes so runs they send him on them,
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: they take them down, yep, just give them.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: So there's like a there's like a fundamental difference between
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you two scenarios. One is a scenario
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: you're in an agricultural rural, agricultural area, right, and you
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: know that a guy has gotten out of the car,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: like yesterday, got out of a car and ran off
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: through the woods.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Right that scenario one, no one knows where he is now.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Scenario two is he comes into this building right Like
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: these are different yep, these are different dogs.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: Well, they'll do both, Okay, it's not a big deal.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: A dog can be taught the track with different commands,
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: even like one command might be you have them on leash,
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: you find out where the guy was last seen some guys,
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: some guys might even do discrimination where they show up
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: a part, you know, a jacket or something the guy
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: might have left. That's another thing we can get into.
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: But generally speaking, they'll pick up a track and nose
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: on the ground and they'll go footstep the footstep, but
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: they'll assill do what it's called trail because they're air
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: scenting at the same time. But they're taught to be
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: get their nose on the ground. And these dogs are
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: specifically trained, like, for example, if you're going to have
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: a tracking dog, his nose needs to be trained on
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: the ground immediately. In other words, if you take that
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: dog and start teaching him how to aircent it's going
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: to be very difficult to get his nose on the ground.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: So that's got to be trained first because the dog
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: is going to go well, you know, if I want
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: to go to eight eight to a f I want
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: to skip everything which is aircenting. But with tracking, it's
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: more diligent, and the dog's got to learn to put
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: his nose on the ground and follow footsteps, crush vegetation,
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: skin rafter are falling, you know, like in a curb
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: or you know. It's amazing how a dog will pick
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: up on this stuff. But he's got to be exposed
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: to all these different environments to be a good tracking dog,
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: and it's got to be followed up on. But like
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: I said, if you try to take one of our
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: apprehension dogs that are trained to aircent, they've been doing
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: it for three or four years, it's gonna be very
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: hard to get them to track, got it, because they're
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: not gonna want to do it. Very difficult. So that's
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: that's a little bit of training thing on that.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: There's a thing you explained to me.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: With with with the dogs you work with, the apprehension
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: dogs is what was the term you used where it's
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: kind of almost seems like something from from maybe more
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: popular in movies and TV shows and reality is like
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: you show them like a hat, like the guy's hat, right,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: and the dogs like, got it, I'll go find them, right.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: But you were explaining to me that that the apprehension
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: dogs you guys train with, they're smelling something very different.
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we talked about that. I remember, Yeah, Yeah, there's
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: a thing. It's and it's it's true. It's a fact.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: It's been studied. There's a thing that when you're in
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: fight or flight, you put off a certain odor. It's
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: enhanced sent Some people call it fear scent. A dog
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: that has had a police thought, that has had numerous
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: apprehensions will be seasoned on that odor. And it's not
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: race specific. It's something that the body goes through, you know,
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: nor adrenaline, epinephrine. All these changes happened in the body
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: when you're a fighter flight, you know. I think I
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: was reminds me. I was watching the show once on
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: boar hunting, and these board hunters are out there and
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: they were talking about what they go through during a boar.
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: In fact, I knew a guy, one of the guys
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: in the unit, Joe Vita, used to go boar hunting
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: in Catalina and nunt these things down on the caves.
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: And you know, back in the day, Kally and I
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: and he would carry nothing more into three thirty seven
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: with a little scope on it and go in the
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: caves and hunt them out. And I guess you can
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: imagine the adrenaline and the fear at the same time
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: that not only is going on in your own body,
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: but also is going on in the body of the
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: boar because when he's corners, he's in fighter flight too.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: So that's kind of what a suspect does when he's
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: in fire or flight running from the police. He puts
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: out that odor, and trust me, he does.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Yah.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: You mentioned to me that this you're like, you're dealing
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: with people who this maybe is the most excited and
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: scared they've ever been in there or not.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we talked about it. I mean I
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: found guys after and some of them weren't even bit.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: They were just scared, excuse the language, shitless and they
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: they end up defecating on themselves because they're so scared,
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: especially if they're bit by the dog. And some guys aren't.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: Some guys are very aggressive. They're yoked up there. They're
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: they're seasoned criminals, they're prisoners, you know, prisoners and all that,
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: and they take it. They take anything like a chap.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: But this is what you want to do with the
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: seasoned dog over a period of time. When you're training
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: a new dog, you obviously can't they've tried to. They
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: can't bottle fearcent. There's companies that have tried to, and
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: I've tested them and experimented with them, and I'm not
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: seeing it. So the best you can do this is
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: old school stuff. Just kind of funny. But I remember
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: when I was a brand new handler and I'm in
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: the unit and there was a guy named John Hall
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: had his little dog named Liberty rod Wiler. We don't
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: use rots anymore, but it was his own dog you've bred,
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: and the dog was still in training and they're messing
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: with me, and you know, I'm a new guy, and
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: they said, Okay, we want you to hide over here,
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: and I want you to put this face mask on
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: because he's going to go for your face. He's not
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: going to go for my face, but he wanted to
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: put that fear in me so that when I'm hiding
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: and we're doing a training scenario, the dog will supposedly
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: maybe hit on me at being a little scared. Ye,
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: And it did get to me. I'm thinking, shit, I'm
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: a brand new handler. I knew a little bit about dog,
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: did some dog stuff before I got in the unit.
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: I'm like this dogs a face bier, really, and you're hiding.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: So just that kind of thing, it wasn't going to happen,
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: but he was trying to recreate that. But you can't,
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: You really can't. You you can only do it by
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: funding real bad guys.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Really, so if one of one of these apprehension dogs
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: it's experienced, if I took like so, it sounds it's
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: an outlandish scenario. But let's say you had someone that
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: just was in a high speed chase, crashes a car,
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: gets out of the car, runs, But all of a sudden,
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: you could nab that person and put them in a
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: lineup of one hundred people, and the dog walks past
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: one hundred people. The dog is gonna go this dude,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: he might has the odor. I'm interested he might.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: But you know, lineups are very strange. When you're doing that.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: You know, you've got to have so much corroborating evidence
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: usually you know, it's like, uh, yeah, we have. You
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: have to be careful on that. Relying on a dog
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: for core purposes, just to discriminate on somebody gets you
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: in a bad place, got it. Not Not not to
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: get too much into the ways, but there was a
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: program the sheriffs were using for a while and I'll
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: keep the guy nameless. But he was running a bloodhound
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: and he was claiming to do all this stuff. Dog
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: can you know, pick up on the drop of blood
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: a week old, he can hit that track, he can
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: find that guy three miles away going through the streets
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: of LA and all this other stuff. And I'm like, okay,
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: wait a minute, that's you're you know, you're you're making
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: up stories. I didn't believe it, and I did some training,
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: not with him, but some observations that the department wanted.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: The department wanted me to look into it. Robert Homicide
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: wanted to look into it. And I mean, I'll just
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: say it had proved out that I couldn't do it.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: But what what sealed it was he put a guy
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: in jail based on what he said. The dog had
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: found this guy with some kind of rape shooting suspect,
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: a male. The Hispanic guy did was already in jail.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: DNA comes out proves that he's innocent. I did like
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: five years, got a big lawsuit out of it, and
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: that hurt that program big time because they based.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Everything I was like using the dogs, just the dog
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: sense receptions.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: Without any cooperating evidence. The dog nailed them and it
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: caused them a lot of problem.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: God, Well, let me ask the same Let me ask
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: the question in a different way. Picture that you have
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: that same scenario. The guy is in a high speed
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: car chase bam, crashes his car, gets off his car,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: runs all around, enters the house. The house is full
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: of other people. Okay, there's a whole apartment building. Okay, whatever,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: it's full of other people. You guys are all there,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: the cops are there.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: What does the dog?
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Why doesn't the dog just run up to the first
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: person in the house and be like, here he is,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: I got them.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: Well, what would we do on that? Because we've had
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: that many of those where we call and he runs
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: into a friendly yep, or sometimes he just runs into
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: a pilgrim's house like a non suspect, totally innocent citizen YEP.
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: I can talk all day about some of the crazy
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: stuff we've had. You know, we've had guys run into
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: a house, we know he's in there, we banging the
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: door like sometimes gone by and we says, hey, is
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: everything okay here? And then it's like a movie. Right,
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: the lady looks at you and goes, everything's fine, Everything's fine,
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, people listening, you're not. She's doing like.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: Right behind the corn with a gun on her, and
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: she was trying to say we're good because he's going
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: to kill her. He was the guys, this guy's wanted
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: for murder, so he's got nothing to lose. And we
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: ended up catching him, but we basically picked up on
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: her eye movements like Okay, she's scared shitless right now
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: the guy's right there, and we ended up we ended
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: up trying to nail the house down, and this guy
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: bails out of a window, crawls up into a crawl space,
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: he hides, and we have to gas him out, and
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: huh yeah, we have to actually we have to actually
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: have to have to use hot gas because what he
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: did was he was ready for the gas. He put
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: a bunch of clothing on his face. He was taking
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: it like a champ. And hot gas is really hard
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: to defeat. It's like nasty. You gotta be careful because
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: you'll could burn down a house. What the squat guys
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: finally did was they kept punching it in different parts
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: of the ceiling, and he had corralled himself into an
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: area where he wasn't getting hit, and then finally they
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: put the hot gas right where he was hiding and
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: then he screamed out, I'm coming out. So that's just
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: another story. But yeah, you got to be careful about
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: discriminating like that and usually want to be safe and
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: have coroberating evidence and all that to you're gonna put
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: someone in jail, take his freedomway, you got to be right, no.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: But I mean what I'm trying to get at is
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: how does the dog know that he's found the one
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: he's supposed to find.
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: Well, that's a good point. I mean, after you have
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: when you put a dog in training, obviously he's just
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: finding decoys. And that's a really good question that leads
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: into a lot of good training. Right when you're exposing
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: a new dog. First you get your police dog that
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: has all the right trades, You test them, you purchase them,
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: you put them through the basic obedience, and then these
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: dogs have the aptitude to do what we're going to do.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: And we could talk all day on that. But once
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: that dog, before he hits the straight, he needs to
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: work in what's called the search team environment. So you
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: might with us, we have a point guard who's married
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: up to the handler, and we have a rear guard
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: two or three people behind us, and those folks play
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: a really important part in the search. That's your backup.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: The point guard usually carries you know, either a tube
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: or a banelle or an ar and he's married up
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: right to the shoulder of the handler. So the dog
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: has to get used to all this. He's got to
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: get used to the team. And some dogs aren't. You
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: get them new. Some of these dogs are. They're edgy.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: They're ready to just you know, bite anything and everything,
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: and you've got to socialize them and make them right.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Not all, but you've got to train them appropriately so
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: they're safe to search with. So you have to teach
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: him how to work within that search team sell environment,
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: and you do that outside the search. You might just
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: do a lot of ball work and playing in obedience
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: with the team around you. I understand the dog understands
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: in low drive when he's calm and cool, these are
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: the guys I'm working with. You don't want to introduce
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: that environment when the dog's at this level. It's like
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: trying to teach a human how to do things when
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: he's in a gunfight. The gunfight teaching starts way before
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: the gunfight, right, you have to teach him how to
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: shooting platform, how to operate the gun, calm and cool
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: and collected, slow fire, single fire, all that stuff. Same
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: thing with the dog. Most of the learning is going
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: to be done in a low drive environment, so the
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: dog can learn, and then you start escalating and you
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: bring in a myriad of other things so the dog
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: can chain all those different environments and situations and be
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: able to perform at a high at a high drive level.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Still listen, and these dogs are tied to a person.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: Yes, for us, And for the most part, I did
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: a lot of military training, not as much as I
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: used to. I had a big contract with the Marines
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: for a while doing all their putting all their dogs
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: on the e coller. And you know, God bless them
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: the way that not the specialize units, not the SF
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: guys or the Delta guys, because those guys are married
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: to a dog for maybe the life of the dog
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: seven eight years maybe. But you're basic military guy. He
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: might just be working that dog for one or two
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: years and then dog's going to go to somebody else
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: and the dog is kenneled at home in their kennel.
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: I mean in the the the camp kennel, so they
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: go home every night, they come to the kennel and
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: pick up their dog. Which really isn't that that good
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: of a thing because the bonding you lack in the
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: bonding you know, with a police dog and agencies. They
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: take that dog home and that dog is their dog.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: The dog learns that that's the guy that's his master.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: The dog stays with him all the time, stays at
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: home and his kennel, all that stuff, so that the
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: bonni is a little bit better that way, and I
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: think that the handler gets to know that dog intimately.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: You know, sometimes it's a good thing. Sometimes it's a
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: bad thing because what we always battled we talked about earlier,
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: even with a police officerho's trained and canine, is they
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: end up treating that dog like a pet, and you
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: can't do that, and we have more problems with that,
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: you know, And I'm speaking of the choir. People are
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: probably gonna listen to this podcast go yeah, yeah, that's true.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: You know, you can tell a guy over and over again,
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: he's a police dog, he's a tool. You can love him,
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: you can cry if he gets killed, but you've got
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: to treat him like a dog, and that's not a
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: bad thing. It's just they're not a human. You know,
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: dogs live for the they live for primarily food, sex, love,
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: and you know, satisfying drive, and you have to look
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: at him in that respect. And if you don't, you
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: got to establish that hierarchy. I guess we talked about early.
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: And if you don't do that, you have a problem.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: Especially with these dogs. You know, they're they're up there.
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: You know, you want to get a dog that's got
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: that high drive and has all those traits for police work.
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: But if they're not handled appropriately, you can turn that
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: dog into a nasty dog, you know. And it's not
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: the dog's fault, it's way he's been handled. I mean,
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: coming up on the leash, body in the handler, body,
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: search team members. These are all the things that happen
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: in dog training and it's usually a human problem, you know.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: Usually it is some dogs, you know, come out of
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: a letter. They're just two alpha They grow up very dominant,
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: and they're not the kind of dog you want. You know,
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: like when you're selecting a dog, especially as a pup,
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: you're looking for the dog. If you're looking at a litter,
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: you don't want that alpha dog. You maybe want the
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: number two or three dog in the hierarchy because he's
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: going to be a bit easier to manage. Yeah, you know,
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: you don't want the you know, number eight dog that's
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: got no drive whatsoever and you know, hides the corner
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: and all that. But you do that dog has got
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: that that drive and that alpha mentality. But you know,
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: you'll get some dogs in the litter that they're kicking
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: all the other dog's asses all the time. They're like
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: they're just relentless. They don't get along with any Mama
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: is always correcting that dog to leave the other dogs alone.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: Probably if you're looking at a Malanwa or a shepherd,
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: probably not the great the best dog for police work
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: really well, because you're going to see that same thing happen.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: Are going to try to dominate you, got it. And
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: some of these things, like I said there, they happen
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: over time, Like you talked about your pit bull thing.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: Some police, some kanine officers don't handle the dog appropriately,
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: and next thing you know, I've seen guy dogs come
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: out of training and he was a great dog, great team.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: A year later, I get a call from somebody, Hey,
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: so and so this dog just ate him up. I
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: go what happened? I don't know, But then I get
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: out and watch them. I'm like, okay, I can see
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: what's going on here. You know you're not You didn't
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: maintain the alpha. You didn't and in a fair way.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: You know, it doesn't mean about kicking a dog, but
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: it means that the dog has to understand that everything
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: comes through you, like I live through you. I get
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: water from you. You feed me, you keep me alive.
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: And you also make him earn everything, especially the dominant dogs.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: You know, like little things like and at home, you
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: know the way he dogs have to be consistent. You
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: can't treat him one way at home and then go
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: to work and treat him another way, because they're not
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: gonna It's got to be very consistent and structured. The
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: dog will respond accordingly. So it's little things like you know,
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: you go to put him in a police car, put
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: him on a sit open a door car, so you're
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: telling him what to do. He comes out of the car,
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: you open the door and make him wait, come to
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: your heal because he's not going to want to wait.
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: If you've done car deployments where the guy the dog
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: is sent out of the car to go and deploy
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: and catch somebody. We do a lot of that. That
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: can cause reactions that you don't want. He might just
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: pop out one time and go by the wrong person
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: because there's no structure there anymore. Yeah, makes makes sense. Yeah, yeah,
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: So you really have to in everything you're doing, you
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: got to really treat him like a dog.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Walk me through if you can think of a memorable apprehension,
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: walk me through an apprehension process.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, God, something from in the field, you know.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I've got some really good capers. But
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: we talked about the fear scent. There was a time
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: I was I was a handler and I wasn't a trainer.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: I was new in the unit, and we had these
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: cops I think in seventy seven. They were ambushed. They
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: were deep in seventy seven their residential neighborhood, probably taking
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: a report call or whatever, and while they're getting in
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: their car, guy pulls up Craig's off a bunch of
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: around blows out the back windows. The cops are okay,
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: but out help call. So they set up a two
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: block perimeter, and of course this is when we were
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: transitioning over to utilizing SWAT as our backup. So the
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: policy was, if we have that kind of a high threat,
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: we have to use SWAT as our search team members.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: Which is fine, you know, because they're trained at that
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: high degree and they've got the weapons and all that stuff.
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: But they're also working with us now, so they have
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: to do canine tactics and not spot tactics, which is
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: another conversation.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Because this dude shot at these cops. Yeah, he runs
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: up and you know, within two blocks where he is.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they had the containment up, they had the airship overhead,
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: and we have a lot of resources, which is great.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: It spoils us because the airship. Our airships are the
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: best in the country. I mean, the way they can
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: operate and communicate and use their flour system, you know,
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: all that stuff. They're just they're golden. And even back
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: then this you're talking a long time ago, this twenty
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: years ago. But anyways, the guy bails out, he's in
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: the containment and I started doing it. We're starting a
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: systematic search. And what I mean by that is we
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: have like a one block, let's say it's a long block.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: It's in deep seventy seventh and we have a team
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: on each side. We have a team here and a
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: team here. I'm searching over here. We've got spot personnel
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: with us. And what we want to do is we
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: want to hopscotch. So one team searches the yard and
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: then pushes. Next team does the same thing and then pushes.
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: But we don't want to be back to back because
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: of crossfire. Oh so we want to make sure that
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: we're safe. But at the same time, we don't want
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: one team to get too far ahead because you want
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: to keep pushing the guy one way. And these suspects
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: are very savvy. I mean they'll you'll We used to
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: interview all of our suspects after we would catch them
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: really yeah. Yeah. We we brush them off and treat
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: them really nice because we want to get info. We'd
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: find out all kinds of stuff like where did you run,
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: what made you put down? Why did you move? All
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: these things? And really we put it in our head
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: as far as you know, tactically, how do these guys
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: liked you?
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Like an exit interview?
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Almost? And you know, I used to be mad
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: at some of the handlers. They were new and they're
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: treating a suspect like a you know which is fine.
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: I mean it's you know, maybe he's a wanted suspect
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: or whatever. But let's think about it. Let's think ahead here, Okay,
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: ask him, you know, and they'll tell you. And what
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: they try to do is if one team gets too
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: far ahead and they're glancing over the fence and they're
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: watching the airship at the same time, and they know
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: that if that airship orbits at a certain point, he's
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: going to be out of view. And he'll say that
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: during an interview and he says, that's when I moved
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: and I hit again. Because they're trying to escape. Some
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: guys will just put down the old suspects. When I
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: came on, a unit used to just run and put down.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: But they got very savvy because they knew Canon was
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: going to search at LA. So then they started trying
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: to break the perimeter and tried to find holes in
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: the perimeter. Like a unit wasn't paying attention on the perimeter.
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: He's looking at he's doing a peakc he says, Okay,
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: I got time, I'm going to jog over to the
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: next block. You know, these things would happen we developed,
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: you know, so.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: These dudes get sad to how to avoid a.
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: Dog unbelievable, and how to escape and all that. So
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: we're pushing this guy. We're pushing, we're pushing. So I'm
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: starting over here with I think the backup guy was
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: a rayde Oil good guy, swat guy, big guy. And
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: we're pushing this guy. Get about the third yard and
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: my dog comes out and I'll mind you. And I
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: know it sounds cliche, but I had a great dog.
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: He was like I mean, even the guys in the
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: unit they said there was times when I got in
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: one shooting. And that's another story where they have their
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: actually says, hey, look my dog's not getting anywhere. He says,
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: bring out your keep, bring o qino. Your dog will
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: do his magic. So anyways, back to this story, we're pushing,
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: we're pushing, and also my dog's exits the yard and
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: his nose goes up. Now, tactically, you don't really want
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: to do this. I don't teach this. You want to
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: even if your dog gets older. You don't want to
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: miss anything. So you keep pushing because you don't want
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: to take a chance of bypassing a yard. Got it,
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: you might he might okid oak you or fool you.
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: Or whatever. It's just not good. But my dog was
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: just telling me he's got oder. I mean, he's like
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: a fishing line. I mean, he's got so much change
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: of behavior that I'm using the caller to call him back,
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: and I'm applying pressure on the caller, the e caller
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: right here, because he's got so much drive to just
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: want to blow past these yards. So I look at Doyle.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: I go, look, he's got something down the street. I'm
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: going to go with it. Airship follow me. So we
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: pass about five or six seven yards and he's just
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: sucked in, goes into the yard, dives into a bush,
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: and he's on this guy just taking care of business
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: and guns out laying over there, and Doyle's on top
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: of the guy, all excited about taking him into custody.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: And I'm yelling at and I says, hey, I go
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: come on back. I got to call my dog off
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: because I do what's called verbal outs. I'm a very
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: big proponent of that. We can get into that later.
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: It's safe for its tactically more safer. A lot of
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: guys will do what's called choke off or heart outs.
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: But and you're you know, I don't like that, so
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: but I can't call him off until Doyle gets off him.
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: So I literally grab him and then I call Keno
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: back to my side take him into custody. But Doyle
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: goes afterwards says, that was awesome. Your dog got that
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: guy eight yards away, that the fear sent that I'm
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: talking about. At that time, Keno probably already had one
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: hundred apprehensions. You know, at that point, he was well seasoned.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: He just knew that smell.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean he was just you could tell.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, and a lot of Canon guys will tell
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: you that they just know your search on the yard,
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, you get about four or
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: five yards in it, and the adrenaline kicks into you,
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: and the whole hunt thing's happening, and you can see
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: your dog alerting we're we're on the track. Or sometimes
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: we'll say hey, We'll get hold of the other unit
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: on the backside of the search and I'll say, hey,
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: my DOS's picking him a, picking up a lot of odor.
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: I think he's on your side, so you're getting close, yea.
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: Then we start got things like that.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Prevents the guy from shooting the dog.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: Well that's a good point. I mean, you know, that's
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: another whole story. You know, what prevents a guy from
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: shooting you know, I think you have like two or
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: three different kinds of suspects. Okay, one of them, you
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: have a suspect doesn't give a shit, he doesn't care
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: if he dies suicide by cop. It's hard to work
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: that kind of guy because you know, you can do
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: best tactics in the world and he's just going to
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: take you out. We've had cops get killed because of that.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: Then you have the other guy that wants to survive,
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: you know, but he'll hurt you if he can. Yeah,
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: So if you drop your tactics and he gives you
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: an opportunity, he's going to hurt you. But if you
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: overwhelm them with good tactics. You know, I used to
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: teach this and I got it from a sergeant many
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: many years ago. It's a great sergeant, Jack Orr passed
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: away a little a couple of years ago. It's a
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: great sergeant. And he had a thing he called the
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: tactical clock. And when you have everything at even at twelve,
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: the suspect is always ahead because he has to be.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: He can be he can be proactive, he can shoot
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: you without any cause or whatever. Cop can't do that.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: He's behind the clock because he has to be reactive.
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: He's got to wait and see what happens. He just
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: can't go out killing people. It's not like a military
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: operation where they're not the story. But you know what
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: I mean, you have to do. There's laws and rules and
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: policy and you have to adhere to that. So it
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: puts you behind the power curve. So the only thing
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: you can do is to have tactics that are overwhelming.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: So the suspect's going to say, hey, I might take
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: that guy out, but his backup's going to kill me.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: You know, the rear guards are going to get me whatever.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: Because the way that we work and we do everything
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: off lead, which is great because when a dog works
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: off lead and he's not restricted with the long line
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: like a lot of departments do, and they're great dogs,
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: don't get me wrong, and I've worked with them all
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: the time. But I've been asks to actually do married
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: classes with guys that do long line tactics and I go, well,
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: you know, I don't do that. I don't teach that
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: everything you do is off lead. When a dog works
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: off lead, that dog offers you reaction time because he's
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: way out ahead of you. You know, he's within range
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: to see. But reaction time is everything. You know, with
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: a long line, you're restricted twenty thirty feet and the
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: dog is always on the line, and the land's getting
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: tangled up on stuff and it's getting what wiped out,
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: and plus the dog can't work right either. When a
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: dog is working offline, especially when he gets good at it,
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: the magic really starts happening because they're using, totally using
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: the dog's natural instinct to hunt with no restrictions. And
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: he also knows through time that Dad's going to direct
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: me into odor. It's up to me to expose my
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: dog to odor. It's up to the dog to listen
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: and trust me that if you follow my direction, I'm
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: going to leave it to lead you to the Promised
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: Land God. And when you get that connection, the dog
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: performs really well. I mean, any guy will tell you
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: a seasoned dog is like gold. I mean, because it
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: takes so long to get to that point. It's just
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: a lot of training in particulous.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: The more experience valuable.
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's like you're like you're you're like one.
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: You know, you can read your dog you know exactly
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: what he's telling you and and you can trust him.
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: So like let's say you know, there's a bunch of
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: bushes over there, and my dog will come in a
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: train dog will usually hit the corners all by himself
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: because sin has a tendency to bleed off into the
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: the perimeter of the yard. So you want to you
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: want to hit that perimeter first and then detail the
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: rest of it. So it's a it's a it's a
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: science and it's an art. You want to allow that
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: dog to hunt and self discover as much as you can,
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: but you also want to do it systematically so he
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: doesn't miss anything because sometimes you know, you a dog
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: may not get deep enough this handlers will make a
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: stake mistakes and they'll miss somebody because you didn't get
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: your dog on odor. You can't blame him on him
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: because let's say you're doing a warehouse and you're not
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: getting him deep enough into the rooms in scent plays
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: of you know, scent is not scent could be very
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: finite sometimes depending on the environment and not I might
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: have to get his nose right on the edge of
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: that door and then boom, you know, he alerts change
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: of behavior starts barking to the door. Okay, guys behind that.
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: So you.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: Direct the dog's pace.
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: Yes, you don't want to overdirect him, but you also
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: want him to hunt, but he has to listen, and
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: that's a whole training thing. You know, there's you know,
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: this e caller helps a lot. This E caller is
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: magic because I can reach out and communicate with my
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: dog twenty thirty forty feet thirty forty yards away.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: How are you communicating to the dog with commands and stuff?
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: Like if you go into a warehouse, how are you
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: communicating to the dog?
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: I want you to go in that room.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: More A good point, But like let's say tactically, Let's
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: say if I'm entering a warehouse that maybe has an
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: L shape to it, big warehouse, and you want to
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: let you do your announcement, which is likely. It could
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: be a lot of things, but with us it might
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: be like, you know, this is LP a canine. We're
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: doing a canine search. We know you're in there. If
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: you don't want to get hurt and bit come out,
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: surrender yourself. You've got one minute to surrender. Come out
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: with your hands up, follow the light, follow my voice, whatever, and.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: You mentioned the dog and you mentioned getting bit.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: Yes, you tell them all that. In fact, now it's
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: really aintal I mean back in the day. You know,
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: now we have to record it. The units on the perimeter,
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: like in an outside perimeter, they have a pre recording
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: in Spanish and in English. Then it's got to be
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: time stamped and all those rules have to be follows that,
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: you know, you make sure like the guy, I never
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: heard an announcement of that kind of thing. You need
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: to do your due diligence and that all takes time.
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: So but we battle that because now that we have
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: to do all that, when somebody requests a canine airships
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: overhead while we're on the route, they get all that done.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: It's already done.
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so when we show up, boom, boots on the ground.
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: So because at first we're getting there, it's like, okay,
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: we're twenty minutes into this thing. We haven't even kicked
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: off yet. And time is of the essence in a search.
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: It's not like a barricade where a guy's in a building,
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: you know, when you may have a containment in a block,
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: but that suspect has freedom of movement and that will
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: get you every time he has freedom to move, fortify
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: his position, relax, you know, maybe get into a friendly
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: house or even a or even a non friendly house
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: which they try to get into. So you want to
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: start putting pressure on him as soon as you can.
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: Got it, So I lost track? What was I talking about?
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: Well about when you go into a warehouse, how are
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: you communicating to the dog, like no, no, no, go check
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: that room more right, don't worry about that room, And
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: we'll do that.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: Sometimes we have to do that because there's scent problems.
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: We might recognize something through experience that odor is going
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: to play funny, like we might want to turn all
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: the air conditioning off because it's going to suck up
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: odor and do weird things, you know, sent does. We'd
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: like a lot of guys will be hiding in a
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: false ceiling like this, Yeah, sometimes in buildings, and what
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: will happen is the scent picture down here could be
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: totally different than up there. So my dog may hit
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: at the corner over there, barking up a storm, crawling
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: up the wall. Okay, guys up there somewhere, but guess
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: what he's over here on the other side, because scent
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: is coming down there. For some reason, I got you.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: So all you can do is use the dog as
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: a tool. Okay, I know I got odor, and then
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: it turns into okay, I'm gonna put my dog up.
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: We got to hand search it now because the dog
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: done as much as he can makes sense. So we
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: get a lot of capers like that. But a good
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: dog will pinpoint isolate odor, and you have to give
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: him time. You'll see him. You know. A new dog
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: might take longer because he's working out that self discovery
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: thing we talked about. But a good seasoned dog, he'll
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: he'll bounce back and for and boom, he's right in
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: the corner of that door or that dipsy dumpster. Or
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: we found a lot of guys in trash cans. We've
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: got in some major shootings in trash cans.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: Guys like the hide and trash cans love.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: Trash at least in la or crawl spaces. Yeah, they
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: love crawl spaces, you know the race foundation. And it's
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: hard because it's a hard sent picture. But when your
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: dog finds his first crawl space space, fine, he'll never
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: leave a crawl space like that again. Oh really, Oh yeah,
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: he'll be he'll be checking every cross space forever. It's
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: like something happens with that scent picture, because that's what
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: dogs learn by. They learned by pictures and chaining events, right,
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: So the more pictures you show them in a positive way,
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: it's like a snapshot, and that's how he learns.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: So they learn like some architecture, I mean they learn
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: like building structure.
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, they learn. They learn like for an example,
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: and other dogs did it. My dog once he got
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: real season. If you can picture a drone over a
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: perimeter and you see these big, wide open yards, you know, five, six,
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: seven of them in a block, my dog would go
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: in automatically at the corners, bisect all of himself. I'd
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: go in, double check, come out and do the next yard.
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: But my dog would do this. He would do the
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: same yard. And let's say the dog, here's a fence
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: and there's a shed on the other yard, and the
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: guy's hiding in the shed. So we'd come over here
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: and he'd alert, even though the shed's twenty feet away
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: in the next yard, but he can't get to it
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: because the fence. He'd be frustrated, and without me saying
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: a word, he'd run out and be waiting at the
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: gate really because he knows I can get to him
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: from the gate. That's how smart they get, because you'll
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: allow them to learn to be a predator. You know,
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: their natural state, which is what they you know, they
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: were like a wolf or so.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: They learned structure.
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: They learn structure, they learn association, and they change those
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: things together and they just become a better animal.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: Are they on hand signals?
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: Yes, there's a good point. I do. There's some units
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: that don't. I teach them to follow the hand signals.
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: That's a big that's a good, really good question. I
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: teach them to follow hand signals. And the light, so
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: the light, the light in the dark environment, like you teach.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: Them to like, they'll go where you shine a light.
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: Yes, and I like the light. There's guys that have
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: experiment with and I have too, with the laser. But
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: the problem with the laser is dogs don't see very
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: well at night. They don't see very like you and I.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: They need lateral movement, okay, like most predatory animals do.
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: They need the back and forth. I mean, if a
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: guy's hiding in a dark spot in a bush and
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: I've seen this happen, and uh, really dark. The dog
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: will go in and I can see him. I can
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: see the shadow dog go in and start doing this.
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: We can't see him trying to fight. He's almost like
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: bumping into him until he bumps them. Then he goes,
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: oh shit, there there he is.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: Oh really, so he smells him, but he doesn't.
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: Smells him, and the odor is right there and he's excited,
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: but he's working it out. Yeah, and it's funny to
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: watch it. We've done stuff in muzzle, like you know
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: where we actually hit decoys, and we do a lot
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: of muzzle searching for a lot of reasons. Getting a
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: dog ready for the street and all that. And that's
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: another whole topic we could talk, which is probably something
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: important to talk about. But yeah, we direct them with
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: the light. We give them what it's called a search command.
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: And remember we've changed all these events. We've done the
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: announcement that becomes a marker. It's time to search, especially
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: for a new dog, so that consistency thing. Okay, it's
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: time to search. Put him on a down through the announcement,
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: back off from the entry level because the door is
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: always a kill zone. You don't want to just blast
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: them from there. We've got guys that are shot there,
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: you know, got to be worry of that because the
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: suspects are waiting. So if you have that big warehouse
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: with that l shape, let's say you send a dog
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: in and we let him have his head. We just
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: let him kind of get some odor. But at the
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: same time, before we let him go deep, we want
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: to get our backside done first. We want to clear
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: an area that is safe. So we structurally we tell
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: them sometimes with the caller, but most dogs will do
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: it if they're trained properly. You call them back here
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: revere hand singal to the right hand, singer of the
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: left detail the backside. Okay, we got somewhere to go
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: to now, and that's a safe area if something happens right,
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: and then we start allowing the dog to search, and
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: then we try to we try to as much possible
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: keep the dog in view, you know, because sometimes a
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: guy can hide in a spot where the scent is
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: very minute. You won't get that heard alert. You'll get
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: a little bit of a change of behavior, and then
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: that's what you've got to recognize, Like that head might
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: go up, but if you don't stick with it and
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: you move beyond it, you might miss the bad guy
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: got it because and the dog could be a really
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: good dog, but sometimes that scent is very subtle, and
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: you've got to be able to see that as a hand,
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: you know, when I'm doing certifications or new dogs, that's
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: part of the problem, getting that handler to be able
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: to read his dog. Like I'll have another trainer with
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: me and we're doing a search and we're looking, and
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: the dog is alerting, he's showing a solid change of behavior,
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: and then the handler just calls a dog and leaves it.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: Got it?
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: And then halfway through the search, I'll go, okay, stop
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: put your dog in it down.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And hunting and hunting birds is the thing, like, yeah,
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: everybody's like he's the dog's getting birdie, right, and the
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: guy that knows the first guy that knows the dogs
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: getting birdies?
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: Who owns the guy that owns the dog?
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: You can see it, but you know a new guy
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: will miss it though, yeah right, yeah, and then and
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: I'll let him. And I don't want to go on
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: and on with the search and knowing that he just
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: bypass that guy twenty months ago, because then it becomes
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: detrimental to the dog. And I go, look, I go
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: just to make sure I've got my other trainer here,
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: and we both saw the alert. Okay. Sometimes when I'm
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: hiding somebody, I'll tell me to go hide and not
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: even tell me where he's at. It keeps me honest, God,
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: so that when I'm evaluating somebody, I can say I
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: had no idea where's at, but I saw your dog
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: alert and you missed it. You boned up, So you
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: can't do that, So get your dog back over there.
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: And then he goes, oh, yeah, how did I miss that? Well,
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: you missed it, and you don't want to miss a
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: guy in the street. That's a big deal for a unit,
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: especially with LA. You know, you miss a guy and
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: it's one thing to miss him when you can't get
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: your dog there. Like a fortified structure, you can't get
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: in it's all locked up, and you'll tell the command post, Hey,
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: we searched everything except for that. You want us to
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: bust in or not? He says, Now, we can't bust in. Okay,
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: well it's not clear. Two hours later, the guy's found
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: in there because we didn't get him in there. So
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: can I miss him? No? Can I didn't miss him?
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: You didn't allow us to search. But it's another thing
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: when you have search an area and you call it
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: clear and then suspect comes out. And I've got some
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: stories on that.
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: Do you There's got to be things that you can
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: train a dog do and things a dog just has
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: to come out of the box ready to do. You
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: talk about biting, is can you train a dog to
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: bite or does it got to be that that dog
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: wants to bite.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: That's a great question, like wants to bite from birth.
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. Because some dogs do they
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: have a propensity to come out and their first apprehension
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: they have no problem biting a real bad guy. That's
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: not normal. And sometimes when you have a dog that
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: is that quick, maybe edgy, it brings about other problems
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: because he's almost too much going that way. God, your
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: normal dog is going to be you know, need training
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: when they come out. When you test these dogs, they
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: are usually from Europe and their competitive dogs in KVP
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: ring sport, shits and work, and it's really a big
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: deal over there. They make a lot of money doing it.
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: Not as popular as it used to be, but it's
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: still a big deal. You can look it up on
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: the website and look at some of the trials and
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: all that that they do. You'll see the dog hidting
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: the guy in the bite suit, the call offs, the recalls,
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: the escorts, the obedience, the agility, all that stuff. And
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: they compete with these dogs and they get different scores.
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: And some of these guys, some of the vendors, are
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: even some of the big trainers out there. After they
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: get a couple of high scoring dogs, they'll sell their
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: dogs to Americans. And sometimes they're titled and sometimes they're not.
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: Sometimes they're green. I mean by that is they're brought
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: to a certain level. They know how to bite, they're
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: prey oriented, you know, they love the prey toy like
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: this right here, whether it's a jude or something to
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: play with. They've done maybe a little bit of search work,
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: who knows, you don't know. And they're young though, they're
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: very young, so they need to be brought along. And
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: that's another story. And after nine to eleven, things really
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: changed because the dog were all exploded. I mean it
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: exploded with the APPREHENDI the bomb dog detection. I mean
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: the military. You know, they were getting hundreds and hundreds
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: of dogs and the whole thing just went crazy. So
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: the need for dogs was pretty high, and that's when
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: some of the younger dogs started coming out, and they're
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: good dogs. I mean, you could take a younger dog.
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: In fact, that's pretty much. The younger dog sometimes has
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: a lot of benefits because he's not locked into the equipment.
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: And what I mean by equipment is the bite suit,
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: the sleeve, the undergarment sleeve and all that stuff that
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: is used in training and competition.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: But how do you get it too right?
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: So that's the whole thing. When you're working a dog
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: and you get some of the basic training dog, you're
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: teaching a dog out of hunt, but at the same time,
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: you want to start introducing things. You know, when I'm
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: teaching a dog, everything I'm doing is for the end result,
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: which is tactics and catching a bad guy. So you
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: take some of those disciplines that are learned in ringsport
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: and KVP and shits and you use them. You use
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: some of those disciplines that make sense for you, but
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: you trash some of the other ones that don't make sense.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: And one of them would be to get him off equipment.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: So you do a lot of you get that dog
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: interested in or you get him to accept the muzzle
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: very quickly, and there's different kinds of muzzles, but you
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: want that dog to be able to be neutral in
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: the muzzle. Some of the problems just to talk about training,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: all put muzzles on some dogs that have had aggression
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: training in muzzle, which is fine, but they're not neutral
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: in muzzle. So when that muzzle goes on, he gets aggressive,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: and that's not what you want. You want him to
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: be gunfire neutral. You want him to be muzzle neutral.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: You don't want rounds going off and the dogs looking
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: for some of the nab or bite. Now he's not safe.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: You want him to be able to just accept the
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: gunfire and move on to his work. Same thing with
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: the muzzle. So the muzzle allows you to when you're
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: playing cat and mouse, when you're playing you know, hide
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: and seek with the dog, and you're setting up training
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: scenarios when that dog learns how to hunt in the muzzle,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: not only just hit in the muzzle, because when a
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: dog is really good in the muzzle, you'll send him
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: on a straight here and they'll hurt you. I mean,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: I've had guys without protection broken ribs and.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: From the dog hitting even though he can't bite you
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: can't bite.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you just like rockets and they're trained right, and
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: I train them really good in muzzle. I have a
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: certain technique and my dog's you know, they'll they'll they'll
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: put some hurd on you. So sometimes we'll wear a
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: vest sometimes over a big jacket, will wear it's like
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: a ski vest or something. Yeah, a skiing vest because
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: they'll hurt you. Plus it depends on the skill of
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: the decoy too, obviously, But yeah, that's one thing you
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: want to do. Another thing would be to do what's
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: called a lot of civil fines. And when I say civil,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: it means no equipment. So when I'm hiding people right away,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: I had to take all the equipment off him. He's
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: hiding in that cabinet. We got him stuck in there,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: and you know, he's sweating up a storm he's in
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: his tight But you want to mimic the real environments,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: like for example, you might start just leads into something else.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: You might start a dog on a really simple odor,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: like a really small closet with a door, because you
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: know the sense is going to be true and the
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: dog knows how to apprehend, he knows how to catch,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: you know, take bites and all that. But you want
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: to introduce him into odor. So we'll put a guy
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: in a suit behind that door and we'll let him
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: cook up. That means he's a lot of scent is
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: developing inside that small room, and we crack the door
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: and make it super easy. So we may do the
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: announcement twenty yards away or at the beginning of the room,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: and then depending on the dog and what I think
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: he might need or you know, lapd com ale your
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: hands up and then the decoy will do a picky boo.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: He'll open up and he'll paint a picture. He'll start
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: screaming at the dog, and the dog's barking. He's all excited.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: Then he shuts the door and leaves it cracked. We
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: send a dog in, so now we want to teach
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: him to be able to bark at the scent. So
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: he'll go in frustrated, going, okay, where do you go? Yeah,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: and he's thinking some dogs will pick up on really quick.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: They'll go and they'll start working it, and all of
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: a sudden you'll see his nose go up and he
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: goes to that corner and then he starts scratching and
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: he gets frustrated, and it's important for the handler to
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: shut up because you want that alert to be between
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: him and the odor. It's called making the dog be
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: obedient to odor. And you'll see the mistake. Sometimes a
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: handler will be back there, going what you got, buddy?
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: Dog looks around, he goes, okay, you just marked it.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: So in other words, instead of the dog's self discovering,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: you've told the dog to alert, and then what happens
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: is the dog will end up falsing. He'll go to
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: a door, check it out, look back at you. You'll
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: think the guy's in there, and you'll go, what you got.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: Dog starts barking, open it door. Nobody's there because you
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: marked it. And it's not about you. It's about what
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: happens right there with that odor makes sense. Ye, Little
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: things like that will happen. And you know, when I
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: go do a lot of problem solving, I'll see it
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: right away. The dog will be, you know, at the set,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: and he's looking back. I go, you've been talking to
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: your dog a lot, haven't you go? You got to
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: shut up. I go, in fact, get out of the room,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: go hide and let your dog do his thing. I
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 3: don't want to even see you, and then we fix
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: it so that because you don't want that dog fALS thing.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: I'm going to get back to a question I'm trying
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: to so the bite, Yeah, like yeah, I mean, so
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: dog might go up and find something, But how do
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: you ever get to how do you ever get to
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: where you know the dogs going to come up and
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: bite but also not bite the guy in the face.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: Sure, well, you know almost all the bites are going
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: to be on the extremities.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: That's just because that's just what a dog is going
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: to do.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: Well, that's what he's going to be offered to when
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: during decoy work. You know, one of the one of
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: my favorite bites is the inside run bite. I like
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: that one. There's all will thing called bite marking. Way
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: way back in the day, we used to do a
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: lot of what's called pulling on the bite, and I
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: called it more of like a prey bite. And it's
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: not a it's not a good bite. It's not a
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: bite that's going to take down a suspect. You want
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: a dog that's going to be digging in and you
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: mark the you mark that with a good decoy work.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: That means the dog bites and he pushes. That's just
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: that's just a detail. I like it because the decoy
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: can really work the dog. He can feel it. A
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: good decoy will tell you what he needs. A good
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: decoy and I my training groups actually hire a decoy
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: and it's it's kind of a the handlers are kind
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: of spoiled because back in the day we did our
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: own decoying. Now I hire people to do it, and
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: it's hard work, but they're good and it makes that dog.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: You know, I can fix problems a lot with a
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: good skilled decoy. Guys that you know do bringsport, KVP
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: and all that pay him some money. They come in,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: they help. But when he's when that dog's biting, Let's say,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: for example, that dog has a propensity to pull. So
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: when you take that inside arm bite and the dog
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: comes in and he's pulling, you ignore the behavior. You
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 3: don't give him a mark on it, and then you
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: wait the dog out and then pretty soon he's not
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: getting any kind of reward. He's just kind of pulling.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: All of a sudden he does this bites.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, you do.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: A mark, and then the dog does again, and pretty
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: soon that.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: Remain You do a reaction.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you'll do it, you'll turn away, go to a submission,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 3: and he likes that because you're showing that you're kicking
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: his ass, you know, the dog. The dog picks up
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 3: on it. Oh, I get a reaction here because what
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: he was trained to do was some we call him
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: bite dummies. You're not doing anything for the dot. You're
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: just a bite dummy. The dog will bite. He's pulling,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: and he's pulling, and the handler's going or the decoy's going, ah,
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: he's marking all bad behavior. So the dog learns to
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: pull the problem with the pull bite. If you have
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: a real apprehension the dog might pull and rip off
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: clothes and start shaking on it a piece of prey.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: That goes into another little story. So you want that
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: bite to be firm and pushing.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: So you can, like you encourage the dog to bite
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: how you want it. By the decoy overreacting when it's
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: doing the right.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 3: It's very subtle too. You don't need to scream, and
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: it's just little things like you're looking at that dog.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: You're feeling the confidence. The decoy will tell you, Okay,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: don't call him yet, don't call him, let me watch him.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 3: He rebites him pretty soon he's pushing. Oh yeah, And
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: pretty soon he's pushing and digging in and the bite's
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: really strong. And then you obviously keep your control. And
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: all my outs are verbal outs, which is another thing.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: You know a lot of guys do choke offs.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: Do you ever get a dog that's got too much
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: like he's too good at biting and it winds up
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: being not safe to use the dog.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: Well, he's only not safe he's biting the wrong thing.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: Oh you mean, because he's so powerful. Yeah, that's a
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: good point. I'll leave it nameless. There was an apartment
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: I worked with uh I still work with him. I
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: have a contract with him. And one of their old
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 3: handlers had a dog and he was the son of
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 3: his other dog from a really good breeding line. And
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: it was a shepherd. And not a lot of shepherds
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: out there anymore. There are, there's some great shepherds, but
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: everybody's using their mouths in the Duchi's you know, I
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 3: ran a great shepherd whatever. But this dog was a
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: powerful dog, and he had a couple of apprehensions where
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: he bit him, wasn't long in a bite and brought
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 3: the guy's arm and that can be a problem.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: If the dog's bite broke.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: The dude, it wasn't like he was on them long.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 3: This this dog, I mean, you would take a bite
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: on him through the bite suit and it would hurt.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, you have to wear neoprene undergarments and the
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: bite suite otherwise you're feeling some good pain, you know.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: I remember working dogs back in the day. We had
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: some pretty lousy bite suits. The department wasn't keeping up
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: on our equipment, and I'd go home sometimes I didn't
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: even know it, take my T shirt off, getting ready
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: to go to bed, and I can't get my shirt off,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: and I got blood dried up blood on my uniform
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 3: T shirt stuck. He didn't go through this suit, but
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 3: the pressure made me bleed. Yeah, my arms all black
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: and blue. It hurts, you know, because they bite hard
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: even with a bite suit.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: You when we talked before, you explain something to me
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: that like you tell people about.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: When you go to buy dogs.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: And you're in the police work and you're and you're
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: shopping for dogs from the same sources that the military
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: is shopping for dogs. Right, You're saying, the military wants
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: dogs that don't bark, but you guys want dogs that do.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: The police want dogs that do bark.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: Right, and that's more of a thing that that's just
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: like the dog's tendency and not necessarily a thing that
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: you train into a dog like the dog don't hunt silent.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: You know, it's easy to make the dog silent.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: It's easy to make it.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: Most dogs will come in silent. You know. You got
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 3: to teach them to bark like an odor and all that.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: Oh you do, okay, yeah you do.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: I mean sometimes we'll pick it up pretty naturally. But
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: some dogs are really quiet. We had a dog that
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: came out of training from another vendor and he's a
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 3: good friend of mine, and they had a tendency of
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: not getting that dog those dogs that bark on odor.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 3: And we have some discussions by going, hey, look, because
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: once that dog is allowed to find somebody in that
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: closet or that cupboard and showing some indication but no bark,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 3: and then he gets paid with a bite. You've taught
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 3: him to be quiet, ye, and he've done that over
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: and over again. It's hard to fix.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: And that's problematic for you guys because of legal issues.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: The dog's got to bark.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just it's something positive that you can say
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: and helps you as a handler. Like I mean, for example, too,
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 3: he he may not even be able to get to
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: source to this to where the guy actually is. Like
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: let's say the guy's up in that ceiling. The dog
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: is trained to get as close to sores as possible
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: and bark, So you'll have a dog that can't get close,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: but he's as close as he can. You'll crawl up
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: that wall and start barking. Yep, that's pretty good. That's
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: a pretty good indication to have. And he also it
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: steadies the dog. What I mean by that is that
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: the dog is given a behavior to do, and when
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: you first teach them to barget odor, you go with
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: one or two barks bie, okay, next one one, two,
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: three four bite, And then you want to vary it.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 3: You know, the variable to intermittent. And what that means
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 3: is you're going to lock in the behavior. Sometimes I
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 3: want you barking twenty times at that door. Sometimes I
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: want you barking twice, because if you don't do that,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: if you don't you know, you use pattern to train
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: a dog, but you have to know when to deviate
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 3: from the pattern to make the behavior solid. Ye. What
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, but that is it might be bark, bark, bark,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: Oh no, bite, I'm going to leave because I always
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: get bite on the third bark. So you want to
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: build up the tolerance, you know, the time and the
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 3: length and all that, so the dog stays at that
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 3: odor because it might come up in a real search
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: where you know, you want to make sure the guy's there,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: like you're calling out swat. You got all these resources.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: You really want to make sure that guy's going to
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 3: be there.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: So there's not a reason, there's not like a legal reason.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: I thought that dog would need to bark no and
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: like as a way to like announce itself to the
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: suspect so that the suspect couldn't like come at you legally.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: Sure. Sure, and sometimes you can bring them back and
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: have the dog bark up, you know, but if your
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: dog barks at a door, we're going to de escalate.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: We're going to call him back in a real search,
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: and we're going to order the guy out, got it,
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: And we're gonna do it several times. In fact, with
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 3: LA I'm not sure about some of the other departments,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: but even the departments I work with, if a guy
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: is in a shed and a dog is solid and
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: he's barking and he just shot Let's say he just
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 3: shot a cop or murdered somebody. Times on your side,
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: you know, you don't need to make an entrance into there,
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: call your dog back, surround it treated like a barricade.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 3: Then you have all these other tools you can bring in.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 3: You can forty millimeters gasset whatever. But there's no there's
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: no rush to go in. And that would be my
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: training because you're going to get hit on that. It's like,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: you know, there's been a lot of lawsuits out there
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 3: where guys, you know, they cowboy their way in and
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: then they actually kind of make a shooting happen, you know,
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 3: because and that goes into like, well, I use a canine,
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 3: you know, I can just get into this a little bit.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: Back in the day when canines on LA were still
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 3: kind of new and there was a we were having
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 3: an issue with our use of forest division, and they
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 3: were teaching a lot of how to chase a suspect,
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: how to chase, how to pie a corner, how to wait,
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 3: be safe, all that stuff. And I watched it and
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 3: the sergeant was doing it was a great guy, very
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: good instructor. But I'm coming from another world. You know,
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: I'm coming from Canine. So I'm not teaching how to
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: chase a guy. I want to teach how to contain.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 3: So you're not going to catch people if you're chasing
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 3: them unless you can, unless you're an athlete, you can
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 3: run the guy down within the first twenty thirty yards,
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: he's gone if you're doing it safely. Because when you're
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: chasing an armed suspect or potentially that guy cuts the corner,
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 3: You're not going to cut the corner. You're gonna you're
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 3: gonna buy that corner slow and make sure he's not
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 3: going to ambush you or you're gonna get shot. Maybe,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: So if you're teach, if you're if you're chasing him properly,
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: he's going to gain ground on you all the time
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: because he doesn't have to worry about anything. So why
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 3: not back off and contain the guy. So we would
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 3: teach like, hey, if you can't run this guy down quick,
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: and you know your average patrol cop, you're in the car,
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 3: it's cold, it's you're calm, you've been just had Code seven,
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: you just had something to eat, you've been relaxed and
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: Now this guy, this athletic suspect Boom is running and
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 3: you're coming out with forty pounds of gear on you. You
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: get hurt, you're going to get sick, You're gonna rip
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: your hamstring. Whatever it happens all the time. So contain
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 3: this guy. So the city of La, the way the
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: cops are trained is to contain and it's phenomenal. People
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 3: across the country can't believe sometimes our find ratio.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: Contain them and let them settle in, yeah.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 3: And de escalate. And the way I sold the apartment,
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: I go, hey, look, you want to get your use
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 3: of force capers down. Your use of force incidences where
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 3: it's an investigation. If you're going to chase somebody, run
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 3: them down, that's going to be use force. You know
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: you're going to tackle the guy, could be a fight,
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: everybody gets hurt, suspect gets hurt, Boom. If you want
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 3: to de escalate, that contain this guy. Plus it's safer
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 3: right you give you give that that chance, that suspect
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 3: a chance to de escalate, and you're going to catch them.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: So what I'm getting at. When I was on a unit,
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 3: we had about a fifty find ratio on containments not
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 3: too bad. And I was talking to one of the algren,
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 3: one of the chief trainer on LAPD now and they
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 3: supposedly have like a seventy to seventy five percent find ratio.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 3: That means every time a perimeter is set, that's the
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 3: odds of catching somebody. It's not because of the canine,
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 3: it's because the perimeter units are locking these guys in it.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 3: Like when you see a pursuit on TV and you've
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 3: got you know, the old thing used to be and
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 3: still you'll see it on TV. You got primary suspect
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 3: traveling at a high rate of speed and you got
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 3: seven cars behind them. Yeah, that's stupid because your seventh
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 3: car is not doing anything. So you're going through this
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 3: neighborhood with a big daisy chain chase chasing this guy.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 3: What our guys will do? And another department like the
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: final chase scene A remember that a thing called the
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 3: Animal Planet. There was a Attenborough whatever doing a narration
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 3: and he was doing it. They had some great footage,
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 3: maybe a drone, I don't know what they had, but
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: it was they were filming those African hunting dogs. There
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 3: were a certain breed out there and they work in
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: big packs, not like wolves. They're like thirty of them.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 3: And they had them chasing a deer and it was
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: just like I train or we train. They had about
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 3: three or four of them chasing this deer and then
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 3: they had the group splitting off. Got it, so they
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 3: had a rolling containment. So by the time they surrounded
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 3: this thing, the deer ended up going into the water,
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 3: but they had him corralled because they're had nowhere to go. Now,
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: I say, well, it would have been all right here,
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 3: he's got open space left and right.
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: I understand.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 3: But that's a natural thing that they developed, you know,
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 3: without just beautiful right.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: So instead of seven cop cars chasing spread out.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, an airship a good airship and us, well,
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 3: we can tell when a guy is going like the
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 3: airship will say, okay, it does be advised. He's slowing down.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 3: I think he's looking for a place to bail because
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 3: he's in a friendly area. Now he's like his own territory,
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 3: unless he's like doing some like let's say a South
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 3: End guy in seventy seventh is capering in west Ola
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 3: by Beverly Hills, gonna he's gonna bail quick because he's
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: out of his territory. Right, He's got to get out
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 3: of the car quick because he knows there's going to
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 3: be a containment, so he's not going to go very long.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 3: But when you get in a pursuit in seventy seven,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 3: he's going to stay in that car because he's going
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 3: to go to an area that he knows and maybe
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 3: get into a friendly. So there's a big old different mindset.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 3: But with that being said, the airship will say, Okay,
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 3: he's slowing down. Units be aware, let's start setting up
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 3: the containment now. And they units that are left and right,
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 3: so we'll have like the primary unit, secondary unit, maybe
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 3: a third unit. Everybody else is out here. So when
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 3: that guy bails, we've already got units here and here,
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 3: so we lock him in. Yeah, he's not going anywhere.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then your dog comes in and does.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 3: Find Ratio just goes up. Because these guys are thinking
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: containment and not chasing. It's a whole different mindset. And
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 3: I tried, and you know, like there's some of the
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 3: departments I work with, like in Texas, and great guys.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 3: I got some good dogs. I got. In fact, one
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: of the guys in Texas, Chris Morey runs a for
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 3: Harris County. They run twenty dogs, and he's frustrated because
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 3: he knows all these tactics and he's getting into the
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 3: off leash thing like I teach him. Taught him. But
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 3: they just don't have the resources like that, and they
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: do a lot of tracking. They just they don't have
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 3: that many airships because you need all that stuff. And
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 3: I feel bad for some of the smaller agencies because
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 3: you can really lock these guys down with a good airship.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 3: But we're using a lot of drones. Now. Drones are
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 3: coming in real handy, these big drones, you know, like
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 3: the size of the scouch. Yeah, you know, these guys
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 3: are operating them, and it's beautiful what they can do
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 3: with them.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: So where do most of the So you're saying that,
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: like you're still involved in dogs and dog training.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, most of these dogs are coming out of Europe?
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, most of them. Most of them are.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: Why is that?
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: Why is the why is the center of this kind
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: of apprehension dog coming out of here?
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 3: It just always has. I mean, there's some breeders out
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: here and they've done some breeding. In fact, one of
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 3: the companies are working Spectrum canine. They bred a duchy
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 3: that we got for San Pablo, and they bred that
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 3: dog and that dog is just tearing it up. Great dog,
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 3: but they know how to breathe, they know how to
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 3: bring the dog up properly. And because it's a whole process.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: What countries in Europe are big into this.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 3: You know, you got hungry Turkey, Slovakia, France, Holland, Germany.
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 3: Germany used to be bigger because a lot of the
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 3: dogs out of there were coming where they were shepherds,
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 3: but some of the more desired breeds, it seems to
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 3: have really gone toward the mouths and the Dutch shepherds
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 3: got it.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: What's one of these dogs worth coming out preliminary training?
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: When I came on a job, we were picking up
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 3: dogs for three thirty five. Now you're talking about thirteen thousand,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 3: maybe fifteen grand.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: And that's for dog which is basic training.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 3: Basic training. Yeah, and some want more if they include
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 3: some kind of training with it. But yeah, they're expensive.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 3: And then you also, you know you want to like
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 3: I used to work with a vendor van Lick Kennel's
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 3: out of Indiana, Ken Lackletter, Rennet and get. They were
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 3: getting hundreds of dogs a year, hundreds. It's facilities in Indiana.
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 3: We go there, I take my guys. I'd get a
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 3: hotel Stadred for like three or four days test dogs.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 3: Another one the elder is Kennels in Riverside. They get
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 3: a lot of good dogs too. But you know, like
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 3: my trainer told me once, he says, where do you
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 3: find a good dog? You find a good dog. Where
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 3: a good dog is. I mean, you have to keep
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 3: your eyes on them. But the problem is you want
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 3: to vendor you can trust so you don't waste your time.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 3: You also want to guarantee, because you could have three
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 3: months into the dog and things start happening medically or whatever,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 3: So you want that guarantee that you know. But something
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 3: that I learned kind of the hard way when I
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: was working as a head trainer in La. You, I
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: don't know, you look complacent, maybe a little sloppy because
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 3: you have all this time. And I had a tendency
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 3: sometime not always, but and a dog's not perfect, but
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 3: I can make them work good. And then I paid
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 3: the price for that because you know, maybe I can
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: make him work, but he's got to go to that
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 3: handler and he's got to continue to make him work.
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: Got it?
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 3: And I learned that, you know.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: Just through you learn to focus on perfect dogs exactly.
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 3: I learned to be greedy, huh. And I learned I
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 3: learned to fly out to Indiana or go to Riverside
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 3: or wherever I'm going, and spend two days training and go, well,
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 3: you don't have anything for me, I'm leaving. But sometimes
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 3: when you do that, the guy will go, well, wait
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 3: a minute, I got one dog you didn't see. I
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 3: saved him for special Forces. But if you really want
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: to see him, I'll show him. He'll bring him out,
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 3: and I'll go, you wasted three of my days, wrap
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 3: them up. Of course I want him. You know you
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 3: were hiding him for somebody else because a vendor will
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 3: sell you what you'll buy. Not anything against vendors, you know.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: They they'll help you to a certain point, but their
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 3: job is to sell dogs. Yeah, you know, And so
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 3: you don't want to wait.
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: That would like if you look if you think about
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: bird hunters, do you think that like would your recommendation
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: to people training bird dogs or duck dogs whatever, would
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: your recommendation be that same thing?
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: Like they don't waste time on m profession un percent.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 3: In fact, Huh, there was some you know during the
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 3: after nine to eleven that got really big into the
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 3: SSD dogs and some of the dogs were looking for
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 3: bombs and they used that same method that the bird
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 3: dogs do. You know. I did some training with the
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 3: Marines on it, and they were at Camp Pendleton. I
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: was down there training with them doing a patrol dog class.
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 3: But they brought in some of their SSD dogs and yeah,
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 3: they were I learned a lot on that because we
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 3: weren't really into that. And they would contract these dogs
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 3: out to certain organizations that made a lot of money.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 3: They were charging departments like got forty grand for a dog,
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 3: you know, for the training and everything. But they were
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 3: good dogs. They were taught to hand signal, go straight out,
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 3: get older, turn around, face to left and right. Some
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 3: of these guys in the Marines were actually using communication
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 3: devices strapped to their callers so they could talk to
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 3: them through that. Got it, And uh, you know they
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 3: were finding bombs and all that because that would they were.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 3: They were dogs that were taught to find ground ground explosives.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 3: So that's all they did. They did a good job.
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: What's your take on these services that uh, you know
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: these people.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: Now you get these people buying these like high end
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: like kind of like executive dogs. You know, it's supposed
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: to be like these these like souped up dogs meant
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: to protect you and your family.
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: Do you buy that?
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, here's the problem with that. You can anybody
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 3: can purchase a dog that's going to take care of business,
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 3: but at the same time, that dog might get you
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 3: in real trouble, right, I mean, if a real dog,
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 3: a dog that's really going to take somebody down, you
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 3: better you better, you better go as much you better
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 3: go through as much training as that dog went through
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 3: to handle that dog and really know that. It's like
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 3: having a weapon, right, I mean, you know, you just
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 3: don't hand somebody a gun. You teach them how to shoot,
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 3: and you also want to teach them about liability risk
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 3: management because you get yourself in a lot of trouble.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: Amy someone walking around with some like some dog that,
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: yeah that means business when he attacks it, or is this.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 3: He might look really good in the equipment and the
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 3: bite suit and the muzzle, but will he really bite somebody?
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 3: Because that's what we do. That's the problem of police work,
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 3: you know, because besides the muzzle work and the civil
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 3: finds that I talked about. We do undergarments, we do prosthetics,
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 3: you know, which is like the fake arms that we
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 3: teach a dog to buy different services so that we
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 3: throw a myriad of things at him so that generalization occurs.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 3: That means that whatever that guy offers you, you're going
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 3: to bite it. You're not going to freak out over
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 3: it or release it or have some kind of problem
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 3: with it.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: Funny about that man is when you set up electronic
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: predator callers. Right, it's so interesting to watch when a
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: kyote comes in.
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 2: I've seen cats come in. When they hit that thing.
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: How quickly they know that that doesn't feel like what
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: it was supposed to feel like, right, I mean.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 3: They they like back, they hate it, But I bet
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 3: you have some dogs they bustled right through it.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: No, No, I've seen with coyotes.
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: Once they make contact with it, they know it's like
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: a little decoy, right, they know that that's not what
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: they were at Like just the feel of it, the bite, feel,
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: the way it feels on their paws, the way it
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: feels on their body.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: They like, hit it there out the door.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 3: That's that's a that's a good example. Yeah.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like they're like, that ain't what I thought it was, right.
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 3: And we've we've had that, you know, we've had that.
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 3: In fact, yeah, my my and I was a brand
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 3: new handler and he was in a situation where we
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 3: were supposed to bite and he went in there and
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 3: it was a find him. It was still find to bark,
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 3: but it escalated to a situation where the guy needed
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 3: to get bit. He got aggressive and he went in
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 3: and he nabbed him and then he backed off. And
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 3: I'm a new handler and I'm like, I'm thinking my
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 3: dogs hard. He's doing all the stuff that we did right,
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 3: And my trainer, Doniel Nelly come out and go, my
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 3: dog's broken. What happened? And I was one of those guys.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 3: I got to be the best. That's just me. I
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 3: mean I I put in tons of training and anything
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 3: anything I do, I want to be really good at it.
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 3: So I'm like, I want the best dog, and this
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 3: is pissing me off. And lo and behold he said,
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 3: don't worry about it, just like I would tell a
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 3: new handler. Now we'll fix it. Not a big deal.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 3: So we did a whole lot of stuff muzzle. We
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: didn't have under garments back then or prosthetics, but we
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 3: did a lot of things to civil him up and
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 3: to get him that way, and the next apprehension that
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 3: was required of him, he did a great joint for it,
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 3: and after that after that, because he was such a
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 3: strong bitter and he had this natural reflex of biting
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 3: and shaking, and so I had to have really good
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 3: control over him because he was doing a lot of damage.
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 3: And there's a thing called the thirteenth floor, if I
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 3: should even be getting into this, but where the guy
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 3: is submitted to a hospital. It's a jail ward, but
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 3: it's a hospital, and a lot of his bites were
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 3: turring into that, and the sergeants looking at me like,
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 3: what are you doing? Are you like leaving him on
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 3: a bite forever? I go, No, I'm not. I mean
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 3: he's coming right off. So they actually assigned a season
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 3: handler with me to keep an eye on me. I'm
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 3: brand new, you know, And I'm.
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: Like, because this dog's doing too much damage.
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so, and I'm like, he's a great dog, but
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 3: he's like, I'm calling him right off, like boom. A
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 3: couple of seconds, and then he saw an apprehension and
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 3: looks at me and he says, you got better control
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 3: anybody in the unit. He says, your dog's popping right off.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 3: He just bites hard.
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 3: So I had to realize that and and you know,
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 3: do things accordingly. I mean, I have to maintain really
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 3: good control over them.
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: It was an interesting point you raised a minute ago
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: when I was talking about these guys. I various buddies
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: of mine talk about these dudes that like make these
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 1: uh defense dogs. It's an interesting point you make that
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 1: if you're selling someone a dog that's supposed to protect
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: their family, how do you ever really know that you've
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: only had you've only had them being training until you
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: take them out to attack someone. You could have that
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: thing sitting around for five years thinking it's some big,
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: bad attack dog.
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: But that dog has never attacked anybody.
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 3: Right, And that's my whole thing. You know, that brings
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 3: me in.
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: It's like an interesting idea that.
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 3: Brings me into this. Here's what's real edible to that.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 3: There was a time when the guys in the SWAT
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 3: unit we weren't getting along very well with SWAT. There
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 3: was a lot of egos going on. Now, when I
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 3: left we're golden. We like love each other. We work
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 3: together with them, but there was like a competition thing.
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 3: You know, canine is getting all these bodies, they're doing
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 3: all this stuff and that's a swat caper. That's not
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 3: a canine caper, and this kind of silly stuff. So
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 3: we had to get through that. But as they developed,
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 3: for some reason, they started doing some work with Delta
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 3: and some of these other high speed units, because you know,
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 3: laped SWAT's great, they're like one of the best in
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 3: the country, but they're doing all this advanced stuff all
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 3: the time. And Delta their teams are married with a
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 3: canine guy like Laso Los Angeles County Sheriffs. Their canines
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 3: are part of SWAT l a p D. Swat and
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 3: canine are different different entities, So we don't work together
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 3: per se like that. We do train together, we do
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 3: work together, but we're not married up like that. Yeah,
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 3: not military or like LIS. So when they get a
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 3: swat call, canine is there all the time with us,
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 3: it's going to be a special event. So yeah, with
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 3: that being said, after they did this training with Delta,
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 3: they says, we want a swat dog. This kind of
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 3: goes into what you're saying, what's a swat dog. All
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 3: of our dogs are swat dogs. Our dogs are always
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 3: there for you, you know, and we'll always pick a
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 3: certain dog that might be better for a certain incident, right,
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, if I need a bigger, more powerful dog
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 3: at this certain location.
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm gonna understand what you're saying. Who was saying they.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: Wanted a swat dog, our swat unit, your swat want.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 3: Wanted a specific swat dog, signed a swat.
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: That they picked up off from the deltagether.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 3: Yes, And I'm thinking, and I knew it was coming,
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 3: and I said, well I go the only I go.
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 3: They wanted to go in training and all that. I said, Well,
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 3: the reason that our dogs are swat dog is because
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 3: they've been out in the street for a year and
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 3: most of them had about forty fifty apprehensions already. Now
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 3: for you to have a swat dog that's going to
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 3: prove you right and not fail you when everything's on
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 3: the line, how are you going to make that happen.
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 3: You've got to be a handler for a while, so
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 3: you're trying to reinvent the wheel. Our dogs are going
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 3: to take care of business. We're going to train with you,
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 3: we're gonna do so we mixed it, but they wanted
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 3: that swat dog thing, and it kind of goes in
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 3: line with he's not proven. You know, I can do
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 3: all the training in the world. Here's your swat dog.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 3: It looks great out in the field, muzzle work, bite work, whatever,
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 3: But is he really going to take care of business?
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: This is the thing that This is the thing I
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: find with friends of mine that have dog hunting dogs,
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: as you got, there's like the hunting dogs that it's
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: just all training. It's like putting pen raised birds out
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: and little meadows and the dog knows he's going to
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: find something in ten seconds. Right, It's like that's all
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: that ever lived. And then you got dogs that have
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 1: been hunting for real yep. And when I whenever I
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: hear about all my field trial this and field try that,
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: I just.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: Like, I don't I don't care, right, I don't care.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: Like the dog that's been out doing the real deal
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: stuff in the real world.
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: That's interesting, right.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 3: Well, you know we had the same thing. I mean,
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 3: there's like a lot of canine trials all over the place,
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 3: not all over, but you know, they and our guys
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 3: didn't really compete very much. And them sometimes they would
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 3: and they may not even do very well in them,
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 3: but they're competing against dot has maybe had one bite
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 3: and they're five years in the job. Uh, And now
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 3: you're competing with this guy that's had like thirty forty
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 3: in the year or fifty or more whatever. You know,
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 3: I had one hundred and twenty one bodies one year.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 3: That's a lot of that's a lot of searching. Wow,
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 3: in our heyday and back in the day, forty percent
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 3: of them got bit. That was standard in the end
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 3: of tree. Now that will get you fired, you know.
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 3: Now the bait ratio is looked at.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: So you had a year, you caught one hundred and
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: twenty people and forty bytes.
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, what like this.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: Kind of kind of final final is question here? What
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: is the dog getting out of this?
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 3: Do?
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: I mean? Like, what what drives that dog to want
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 2: to catch a person?
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 3: Well, it starts from this little toy here. That's a
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 3: piece of prey object. Do It's just a toy, just
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 3: the can with a rope and I use a lot
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 3: of it. And you know this is what we train. Okay,
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 3: I mean it's not only it, but it's the natural instinct,
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 3: the predatory and most dogs have it, even your little
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 3: Pucci dogs. They have some kind of prayer, pray in them,
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 3: you know, but some of them obviously have a lot
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 3: more genetically predisposed for all that. Yeah, you know, that's
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 3: like the detection dog. They do everything for this. This
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 3: is a reward system, which be a tennis ball or
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 3: a calm, a jew toy, whatever it might be. But
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 3: the dog's hooked on this, and you know, when he
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 3: bites a man, it's just a bigger version of this.
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: Really, you know, it's not like he's like he wants
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: because yeah, he's got no concept of justice.
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 3: No, not at all. I mean, although there is something
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 3: to say about protection of the handler and all that.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: They oh you think, okay, that's a factor.
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 3: I think there is some of that, and I'm not
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 3: so sure how much with every police dog. But for
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 3: a home dog, let's say, you're going to see some
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 3: of that, like I saw it in my mouth, like
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 3: we talked about, I can't. He's not totally the most
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 3: trustable dog. He's got a lot of guardiness in him,
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 3: and he's very guardian to the family. I see, and
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 3: once I get someone to know him. He's totally cool.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 3: But I found out the hard way that I got
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 3: to watch him.
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: So one of your apprehension dogs could develop a professional
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: like or develop a personal relationship where they are in
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: some part motivated, you know, texting their handle.
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 3: It's a really good question because the way that I
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 3: preach to guys and this is you can tell them
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 3: all day long. It says, you know, for the most part,
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 3: this is a working dog and he's not a pet,
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 3: and the worst thing you can do, really, I think,
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 3: is to treat him totally like a pet. First of all,
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 3: you want to contain that drive. The dog stays in
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 3: the kennel when it's working, and of course you want
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 3: to bring him out, socialize them and all that. But
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 3: when he becomes too much of a family dog, There's
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 3: been a lot of times when that's bites in the
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 3: butt because the dog will perceive something, you know, maybe
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 3: a neighbor will come over and do something or move
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 3: or make some kind of furtive movement, and next thing
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 3: you know, he gets grabbed by this police dog and
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 3: the lawsuit happens, you know, and I've got stories about that.
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 3: So you got to be careful about that stuff. You know.
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's safer just to treat him what he is.
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 3: He's a police dog. He goes in the kennel, he
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 3: goes to work days off, bring him out, run him around,
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 3: have fun with him, play with him, do some toy
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 3: work with him. Whatever. But he's his job is to
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 3: catch bad guys. Yea, and some.
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 2: Dogs never like that dog.
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: You know, the dog's not angry when it goes at somebody.
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's a good point. So when you are training
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 3: a dog to bite in the beginning as a puppy,
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 3: they're biting out of fun. You start off, you know,
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 3: maybe with a jew toy. You know dogs like you know,
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 3: so big, you know, three months old. You got him
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 3: on a little jew toy. He's having fun. You're playing
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 3: with him, and he's biting. And that's how you want
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 3: to bring a dog up. You don't want to do
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 3: what it's called like the old sentry dogs where they
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 3: treat teach a dog to bite out of aggression and
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 3: sometimes even out of defense and fear. When a bite,
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 3: when a dog is biting out of defense and fear,
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 3: he's he's unreliable because he's not biting out of fun.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 3: The aggression will come later. You know, you want to
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 3: build aggressions to where he's biting out of fight, but
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 3: that's later on, if that makes sense. So you do
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 3: that too soon and the dog can be can be
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 3: very understand on and.
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: A dog it's aggressive as a youngster and bite.
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 2: You're not gonna tell.
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 3: A toy he's coming at you, he's biting him. You
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 3: have him an a lee, you let him run around,
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 3: the toy in his mouth, you grab it again, you play tug.
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 3: You work on the bite, you work on the grip,
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 3: you get all those things. Then you develop into a
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 3: bigger tug. And as a dog gets older and he
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 3: has his adult teeth and you bring in the sleeve
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 3: and then you graduate from the sleeve to the bite
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 3: suit and you bring him along that way. So by
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 3: the time he's nine months old, he's like on his way.
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 3: You know, he saw he's got a nice bite. He's
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 3: biting for the right reason. You know, he's not biting
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 3: out of you know, I wanted to just kill everybody.
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 3: It's a fun thing. Tug award and all that stuff.
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 3: That makes sense.
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: So have you did you ever lose a dog?
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: Do you ever have a dog get shot in a
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 2: line of duty.
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 3: I've been around it. Yeah, that that h quick story.
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 3: I was a new handler. I wasn't in the street yet.
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 3: I was still in training and we had a dog.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 3: Uh the radio, I was talking about John Hall and
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 3: he was a season handler. He's been in a lot
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 3: of shooting. He's a lot of very violent time. Back then,
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 3: we had a it was a traffic stop by two
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 3: motor cops, pulled two Hispanics over and he's going to
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 3: give him a ticket, but he had no idea. They
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 3: just robbed a bank. Oh or a store. They robbed
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 3: a store, so they're thinking shit, you know. They came
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 3: out of the car, shots fired, pursue him, help call,
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 3: and they bail out into a perimeter in West LA
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 3: which is a really high end area of LA, and
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 3: canines called. So we're all the whole units and route where.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 3: You know, back then we didn't use SWAT. It was
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 3: everything was patrol. The unit was a lot newer than it,
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 3: you know is now. John Hall shows up with his
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 3: dog and I think it was another canine. I was
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 3: on the other block side of the block searching, and
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 3: while we're about halfway in, maybe an hour into it,
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 3: I hear the shots fired go off, and the help
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 3: call comes out and I can hear the shooting going on.
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 3: And what happened was he went in there and there
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 3: was a sergeant, a canine sergeant, Mark Mooring was on
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 3: his search team as his backup within a couple of
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 3: patrol cops. The dog entered the garage and then he
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 3: was ambushed right away. The dog is on the bit,
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 3: he's already shot in the neck. The dog is but
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 3: he's still taking care of business. And now John's having
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 3: a gunfight with the second suspect and he gets hit
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 3: in the hand, transitions to his other hand and ends
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 3: up taking down the suspect, and then Mark Mooring shot
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 3: one of them two and then Liberty was still on
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 3: the bike finally released and is led out right there.
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 3: Oh god, so she died. And that dog was really
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 3: sad because he raised that dog pup. It was one
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 3: of the dogs he raised from a good breeder and
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 3: trained all you did, all the training. We've had dogs stabbed.
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 3: We had a dog, really nice dog apprehended somebody in
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 3: a bunch of inside of a building and the guy
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 3: pulled out a knife and stabbed him.
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 2: Killed it, killed him.
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 3: There was another one. We ended up actually changing policy
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 3: on this one. Salabadaca had a dog or a Newton
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 3: a vision and very sad too. He had a really
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 3: good dog, Marco. This dog was a nice dog. A
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 3: lot of apprehensions been in gunfights with him. And they
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 3: had a guy under the crawl space and he was
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 3: wanted for like a burglary or something like a low
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 3: great felon. He wouldn't come out, and this when we
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 3: changed our tactics, you know. So he sent his dog
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 3: under the house. Well, the guy was ready for it,
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 3: and he wrapped himself with an army jacket. He took
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 3: the bite. He had a screwdriver and he shanked him
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 3: behind his head several times and Sal heard the whining
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 3: dog came off, the bidy came out, and then he's
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 3: in his arms like, you know, laying there. It was
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 3: kind of neat because the airship they would never do
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 3: this today. The airship now, this is a you know,
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 3: a rough area of Newton Division residential area. I think
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 3: it was like gauge and it was a fiftieth in
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 3: some street Broadway or something. The airship landed in the
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 3: middle of the street, picked the dog up and flew
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 3: him to the vet in West La. Oh really pretty badass?
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 3: Do No, he died. Yeah, we all showed up at
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 3: the vet and seals and tears. You know, that's a
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 3: hardcore guy and he's crying.
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 2: But they get guys get closer.
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I cried like a baby when my dog passed
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 3: away at home. He got blown and I had my
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 3: two boys with me, and I'm like Jesus, losing my shit.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: So yeah, so what's your business now?
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 3: Man? So I do I do a lot of you know,
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 3: I started my business, you know, like in twenty ten,
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 3: and basically we were getting Even before I started my business,
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 3: we would get called to help other agencies do training.
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 3: It would be on duty stuff. It was just kind
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 3: of mundane tactics and stuff like that. But then I
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 3: noticed as I was training, I couldn't do it. When
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 3: I started my business, I wanted to offer advanced tactical training.
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 3: That was kind of my thing. But I soon found
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 3: out that I couldn't because I started in twenty ten,
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 3: because most apartments weren't doing anything what we were doing.
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 3: They weren't doing off lead work, they weren't using the
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 3: caller like I use it. The caller was more used
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 3: like a punishment device and not a way to communicate,
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 3: which you probably heard that from other guys right in
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 3: the bird world, you know, not using the caller properly
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 3: causing all kinds of issues. There was a lot of
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 3: that going on. So I developed the knee Caller Course,
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 3: a five day course for units to get the dogs
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 3: to work off lead and do it the right.
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 2: Way, give them directions from a college.
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and just I got to the point where I
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 3: developed the class over a period of time through some
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 3: trials and tribulations that I got to really solid class
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 3: now that I can take ten guys and get them
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 3: pretty much going as long as they're certified the street.
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 3: So that's primarily what I do. But I also have
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 3: contracts with a few agencies that I do their maintenance training. Okay,
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 3: and but I'm slowing down, you know, I'm pushing sixty
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 3: nine now and my wife wants me to not be
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 3: gone so much.
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: You don't deal in dogs, I have.
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 3: I don't do that. I have done some patrol classes,
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 3: but I'm pretty expensive, so it's really not you know,
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 3: for my time. They can probably do a better job
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 3: going to a vendor and getting their patrol done in
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 3: a group of guys.
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, what's the name of your how do
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 2: you work?
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 3: Just under dog roller tactical canine tactical tactical K nine
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 3: And uh, yeah, it's going good. It's been a great
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 3: it's been a great, been a great, great career, great job.
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 3: And I love what I'm doing.
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 2: So and and just to be clear, you keep a
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 2: couple of pet dogs around.
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 3: And I keep a couple of pet dogs around. Yeah
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 3: they're painting in the butt. But yeah, trying to do
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 3: a little more traveling now and all that stuff. But
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 3: and I got I brought two other guys on that
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 3: are going to be doing a lot more work so
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 3: I can field more stuff. Guys that I trust that
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 3: are going to do the same thing I do.
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: Do you ever think about raising a bird dog?
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 3: No, but I've worked with them. It's pretty interesting.
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be interested to see if like, I'd be
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 1: interested to see if you you.
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: Know, if you worked with a bird dog, what the
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 2: result would be.
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a lot of the concepts are probably
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 3: And I've worked with them with the Marines, I learned
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 3: a lot how they worked them. In fact, I ah
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 3: doing the bomb dogs doing the bomb dogs, and we
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 3: talked a lot about that, Like here's a quick story
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 3: when I first saw them working in Pendleton and then
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 3: I did some work in Campla June. But they were doing.
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 3: What they were doing is we're teaching their dog to
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 3: go out and do the left and right hand. Soon
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 3: those commands dog turn around, sid cast them left and
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 3: right about one hundred and fifty hundred meters out. And
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 3: they were using a reward system. And the reward system
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 3: Tritronics used to make before it became a garment, they
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 3: used to make a bird launcher or Yeah, what it
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 3: would do is it would it would be you could
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 3: hide it, put the bird in there in a cage,
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 3: remotely press it, bird comes.
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: Out, you know a bird bird.
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, bird launcher and for I guess the bird dog
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 3: guys re using it. Well, they took that same concept
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 3: and they would put a toy in there, all right,
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 3: so the bomb odors over here. That's hidden over here,
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 3: so the dog would alert a passive alert because it's
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 3: a bomb. They would just sit there and wait and
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 3: then boom. Pay them. Toy goes up in the air
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 3: and to get paid. That's the marker and all that
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 3: I'm watching them do this. I go, well, you know,
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 3: do you have any other method of paying? I said,
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 3: is that is that the marker called paying payment? You're
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 3: paying them, Yeah, pay the pay the dog. Pay the dog,
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 3: especially in detection, pay him he's on order, throw the
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 3: ball on top of his head, so he gets the marker.
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 3: So he goes, oh yeah, yeah, works great. I go, well,
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 3: I see a problem. I said, your dogs are alerting
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 3: on the bird launcher because the because the picture right.
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 3: Oh no, no, I go, let's do an experiment. I go,
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 3: put that bird launcher thirty yards over here or twenty
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 3: yards away from the bomb the source what you want
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 3: to find. And every one of those fuckers they went
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 3: in and they fringed, and they they got the bomb oder,
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 3: but they left it and final on the bird launcher
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 3: because they know. So I said, you know, you've got
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 3: to You've got to vary everything right now. One way
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 3: to counter it, which they actually do now, is if
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 3: you had like ten bird launchers and have the bomb
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 3: oder here so that they can't just find one. The
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 3: primary scent is going to be the bomb odor. And
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of a lot of things that guys
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 3: do where they mess things up like that. They don't
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 3: realize that they use one thing to bridge something, but
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 3: then it costs them in another way, you know what
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 3: I mean.
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 2: And part of your work is coming in troubleshooting.
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you can troubleshoot that stuff exactly. Sometimes handlers don't
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 3: even know. I mean, simple little things like marking behavior.
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, you'll get I'll see a dog
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 3: doing a guy doing obedience with a dog, and every
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 3: time he puts them on a sit, he sits and
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 3: he jumps up in his face. And I said, well,
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 3: you don't want him want to sol it down right,
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 3: you don't want that to happen. But what he does
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 3: is what he does is I watched him working them.
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 3: The dog would sit and then every time he sits,
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 3: he pays him with the toy to jump up. And well,
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 3: that's what he's doing, So stop get rid of that
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 3: ball too much ballwork too, That's another thing. So you
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 3: can identify things like that they don't even know. I
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 3: even told guys when I was working a dog, just
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 3: to drop your ego. I says, look, I got a
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 3: problem with this dog. What am I doing because this?
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 3: And he says, you know, Doug you're doing X, Y
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 3: and Z. Really I didn't even realize it, you know,
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 3: So you just got to drop the ego and figure
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 3: out that, you know, you're doing something innately that you're
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 3: not even paying attention to that is causing a bad
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 3: reward for the dog or a bad marker. So sometimes
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 3: it's good for people to evaluate you, you know, like
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 3: we're doing e caller work and we have this out here,
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 3: and you know, you'll see dogs really quick. It's like
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 3: in a dark environment, and they'll pick up on it
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 3: and they'll get maybe not even get hit with the stimulation,
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 3: but when you call them off the bike, they're going
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 3: to the guy holding the caller. Really yeah, so then
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 3: you got to hide it or everybody has.
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: A tune in weird weird associations.
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 3: AFT man, you paint that picture and you've got to
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 3: be careful what picture you're painting. You always got to
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 3: be aware of that, you know. And a new handler
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 3: has a hard time because you know, I mean, I'm
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 3: trained thousands and thousands of dogs and that's why they
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 3: hire me because I can see those things right away.
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 3: But it wasn't always that way, you know. It just
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 3: took a lot of experience. It's good.
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 2: Well, Doug Roller, thanks for coming on the show.
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 3: Man a pleasure, Thank you having me, and thank you
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 3: all the people I know out there.
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 1: Well, I bet you're going to get some emails people
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 1: want are going to ask you a bunch of dog questions.
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 3: Man, Well, it's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 3: meeting you, and especially a shout out to the Task
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 3: Force heroes. That's how we meet.
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 2: Well, Task Force heroes.
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 3: Shane Shane Yate does a great job. You know, my
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 3: my buddy j D. That got me to go. God
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 3: bless you. So thank you for coming on. Man, all right,
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 3: thank you