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5. Holly Robbertz - District Dyslexia Specialist · Learn Literacy Podcast

• Cheryl Urbanczyk: welcome everyone to this ⁓ of the Learn Literacy podcast where ⁓ advocate for language for life through teaching literacy through language and structure. ⁓ I'm very excited today with our practitioner profile. I'm joined by Holly Roberts from Ohio, and she is a fellow embedded in a school district there and does lots of great things. So I'm excited to hear about her. Welcome, Holly. Thank you for joining us. ⁓ Holly Robbertz: You're so welcome. Thanks Cheryl for having me. I'm so appreciative of this opportunity. Cheryl Urbanczyk: ⁓ you're welcome. I think we met even outside of the OG world when we were both learning morphology and structured word inquiry and things and then our paths kept crossing in different things that we were doing. ⁓ it's always been fun to stay connected. Holly Robbertz: I can remember how long it's been now. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: I know. Well, exactly. That's quite some time ago. Well, it's one of things I really hope to achieve through this is just hearing people's stories, how they learned about OG, what their ⁓ OG learning journey was. So why don't we start there? I know you've been in it for quite some time. So if you don't mind going back and telling us how you learned about OG and who you studied with, where you studied, that type of Holly Robbertz: Yeah, I'd be happy to. So by training, I'm an early childhood educator and an intervention specialist, which means special educator in the United States. I'm originally from New England and so really started working in the mid 80s at a lab school ⁓ that was called the Elliott Pearson Children's School that was attached to the child study department at Tufts University. and was very fortunate to I consider it to have been a real formative experience professionally. So all of classrooms were lined with observation booths. So educators will go to class and then they come ⁓ and be assigned their faculty to observe us while we were teaching. And afterwards we'd meet with them. ⁓ And students could actually see them. The was that kids should know that they were being observed. So there were screened observation booths. And then afterwards, we would process ⁓ happened in the classroom. And were supervised graduate teachers who were getting their master's degree and undergraduate field study students who were also teachers in the classroom. And so after I teach, part of my responsibility was meeting with these groups of teachers who were getting their degrees. And it really wasn't about that there was a right or wrong way. It really was to process what we observed or to talk about why we might have made a decision to teach a certain way. And it was very ⁓ holistic. approach to teaching. Like all parts of the child deeply ⁓ as well as their connection with their family and curriculum was developed based on observations of child behavior and child interests. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: That's amazing. I wish we had more of that model now that real coaching and embedded mentorship for teachers. Holly Robbertz: It was very rich and again, I learned so much just from, rubbing elbows with other teachers as well as faculty members there. And at that point in time, I had training as a teacher, not in teaching reading directly. ⁓ So again, was the 1980s. So inclusion was just coming about as philosophy. So I co-taught because it was an inclusive classroom. had children with disabilities of all ranges and I think a third of my classroom had children with a disability. we had O.T. speech, P.T. that we co-taught with. We had learned a lot about collaborating with other professionals and really nice high quality professionals. And at the same point in time, Cheryl Urbanczyk: lot of staff. Holly Robbertz: whole language was how you taught children to read. And I was, I'm a sixties baby. So I learned to read through actually phonics based approach. learned, I had to see Dick and Jane and all of those big readers. And I actually consulted to school districts around whole language. And yeah. So we had big books. We read about the monster's party and Mrs. Wish. Cheryl Urbanczyk: You Holly Robbertz: washi. And there was also throughout the classroom, we had clipboards in each part of the classroom so that we would document children's do record keeping and document children's development, their flying motor, gross motor, social interactions. And the file study department, we had David Elkind, who he actually wrote at that point in time, The Hurried Child. So it was a book about rushing the children and development. Marianne Wolf was in the child study department at that point in ⁓ Sylvia Feinberg, who taught about child and the We also had Zero, and it's still in Cheryl Urbanczyk: That's wow. Holly Robbertz: today. It's a Harvard based program where again it looked at child development and brought educators together almost like a think tank to think about what's instruction. it it was a very ⁓ rich learning experience ⁓ me. We husband and I lived ⁓ in seacoast of New Hampshire which was not unusual so I commute down to Boston Our second child was born, it was starting to feel kind of strange, a little challenging, both of us commuting to Boston because my husband was. So that point in time, I actually took a job up in the Portsmouth, New Hampshire area as an early intervention specialist who worked with children and family who are at risk. But those years at ⁓ Elliott Pierce incredibly ⁓ rich and formative as I mentioned. And then we again we had three children. Our youngest was two, two girls and a boy, and my husband a job in Columbus, Ohio. And just about that time we had a daughter who was actually evaluated at Mass General Hospital. And she has very complex needs, but one of the needs they identified was dyslexia. So it started me that journey ⁓ figuring how to help her. And so again, we were moving school districts, getting our family established. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I did. Holly Robbertz: And I really didn't know much about supporting students with dyslexia, so I started just training in everything because I felt like unless I trained in it, would I truly understand what was most effective. ⁓ daughter was on a medically shortened school day because of other needs that she had. And I knew she had with the school district because they really didn't have structured literacy in the school district and advocated as hard as it could take her to Ohio speech and language. And there she received ⁓ Linda Moodbells, Phonics Program. ⁓ Then was the reading program that they use. I just observed. And then she had a speech and language pathologist who provided Orton Gillingham. So I observed through a one-way mirror. Cheryl Urbanczyk: So now the Orton Gillingham is coming into the story. Holly Robbertz: Exactly. this SLP said, if you're interested in getting training, I know of a fellow who is going to be providing a training at a charter school. So this was 2004 and it was Cindy Schultz. So I trained under Cindy in 2004 and a year and the training was at a charter school and the director of the charter school asked if I would work for her. So that's when I of re-interred, of course, part-time also started what I call my ice cream truck business where I'd fill my minivan and I had folks who would refer to me and I would travel to people's homes ⁓ start to provide Orton-Gillingham instruction. Now, when I was trained in ⁓ when was trained in OG, Cheryl Urbanczyk: a lot. Holly Robbertz: The associate coursework was 40 hours. And that year it changed to 60. So actually, after I finished with Cindy, went to Marburn Academy, which is a private school here in Columbus, to train in the remaining hours. Now at that point in time, Marburn didn't have a fellow leading their program. So they brought in the Cole Institute that Angie Wilkins and two other fellows who provided so I trained under Angie and I can't remember the name of the two other fellows finished up my 60 hours my ⁓ weekend private practice I was establishing and then Cindy reached back out and she said you're an intervention specialist right? I said yes. So she's a speech and language pathologist and she asked if I would work for Tange schools and she was just working part-time for Olin Tange as an SLP and a little bit of reading support. They had a particular case. They wanted me to be a private tutor. So was actually the first private tutor that Ollantante schools hired. This was in 2008. And again, I was associate certified at that point in time. There wasn't certified training available at that point in time. Cindy so only tangy schools is a large public school district. It covers 95 square miles. It currently has 24. We're about to build number 25 and 26 school buildings. We have 4000 students. Cindy ⁓ asked special ed director if she could start to provide, at that point in time they provided like a three day Wilson overview. And she asked if she could provide, because she's like, I'm a fellow, can I provide Orrin Gillen training? So in 2012, she started the first OG training at All-IN-TNG schools. The school district, I mean, we've been really fortunate because the leadership has been very supportive of this initiative. We also had a group of parents called the Olentandee Dyslexia Network who were strongly advocating for their children. So I think because the parents advocating the leadership heard their advocacy. Cheryl Urbanczyk: difference. Mm-hmm. Holly Robbertz: And again, Cindy started training, but there wasn't cert training available. So the district paid for me to travel to Armenia, New York, 2012 and 2013 to train under Diana Hamburg King in Leopold. And it was such a rich experience. It's a beautiful setting in Armenia, New York. was a summer. It was like going to camp. beautiful kitchen, you ate amazing food, you totally immersed and didn't have distractions at family and home. So did that training and then actually started a second master's degree at the College of Mount St. Joseph. After wrapping up my training and then started work, completed my cert training, became certified level, and then became Cindy's fellow in training. And Cindy starting to see that she probably, that retirement was in her future. So I became Cindy's retirement plan. So Cindy, ⁓ became a fellow in 2017. Cindy retired in 2018, although she's actively. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. She's at the conferences all the time. I've seen her. Holly Robbertz: working as a consultant. She's training, she has two fits under her now, I think actually more than maybe four. really hasn't retired. She trained actually Mike Myers who's in neighboring school district in Dublin. And before Cindy retired, she and I worked on having Olin Tange become an accredited training program. through Orton-Gillingham Academy. And that also happened in 2018, the first public school district in the United States become accredited through Orton-Gillingham Academy. And then, we've been doing the work ever since. Fortunately, my team has grown. I have a team, I just think the world of a very bright, thoughtful, caring human being. So we now have, including myself, six, one fellow and five fellows in training. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I think I've met quite a few of them and I can agree. They're all great. Holly Robbertz: I think you have. And again, just because of all of our school district being so large, being able to meet the needs. Like right now we have 50 teachers in a practicum. Yeah. that's, I that's kind of the big picture of my state. Cheryl Urbanczyk: for that. There's so many ⁓ up questions I could ask, but I think maybe we'll just stick with the work in public school. Like, ⁓ do you notice, let's say, ⁓ surrounding districts or areas where they don't have that Orton-Gillingham program in terms of ⁓ you're seeing through that in your district? Holly Robbertz: ⁓ One thing that did happen, again we feel very fortunate to have an in-house Fort Yngvillaham training program because what happens is the teachers can train and get their book to come during the school day. It's all job embedded. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. It's the ad that support is so vital as opposed to like drops of training here and there Holly Robbertz: and the ongoing nature of it because we have continual relationship, yes, community, we're always making updates. so they're getting updated as we're updating ourselves, our understanding of the English language. like psychologists in the district, we've like Horton Gillingham, structured literacy IEP goal documents that are used throughout the district. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Maybe. Mm-hmm. Right. Holly Robbertz: So there's a lot of weaving. There's a lot that we do that is an extension of our roles throughout district. I believe it was 2023, House Bill 436 legislation. It's called Connor's Odyssey. And it was named after Mike McGovern's son and Mike McGovern is the president of our local International Dyslexia Association. did a tremendous amount of work to help this legislation come to be. So school have dyslexia screening. They have to train all of their teachers or provide a certain amount of professional development for teachers K through 12. And then we have to have a pathway to certification. to answer your question, ⁓ are very fortunate to have this program, but other school districts have had to try and figure it out too. And they're all in various stages of this work. I think what we feel so strongly about is the importance of literacy education for all children. And, as you know, only Hampton talk about in her podcast that it can be a rich man's game. If you have the option to provide private tutoring to student, you have that advantage, but all children have the right to learn to read. the other thing I share is ⁓ in the early ⁓ 2000s, I traveled back to and trained in Rayvo under Mary Ann Wolfe, and then went back and trained a bunch of teachers. So in addition to Cheryl Urbanczyk: next time. Holly Robbertz: in Gillingham, still Rayvo today. I work full time for Olin Tandy during the week and then I have six students that I see privately on and because A, I love direct service, it's my first love. B, for I feel very strange to be a fellow and not practicing the things that we're talking about, learning, growing. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, I agree. Holly Robbertz: So all of us, it's actually one of our values, all of the fits on my team are still teaching. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Good. Yeah, I know. Because I think sometimes the trajectory is like, become a FIT, I do training, and then I kind of park there not ⁓ back to students or have them. But I think it keeps us, I don't know what's the right word, but like up with our own game. You know what I mean? We just we can't give if we don't have that continued work with students. So it's important. But ⁓ Holly Robbertz: And really. Yeah, I've done so much training since 2017 when I became a fellow. I'm a very different practitioner even now than I was then. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, there's always new learning and things coming out that we have to figure out how to implement. But does your board like use any type of testing or assessment to like ⁓ the impact of programming and progress monitoring like all that stuff is kind of built in there, I'm guessing. Holly Robbertz: It is we have it's called MTSS multi-tiered system of looking at children's needs. And then we also have we have universal benchmark screening. We use Amesweb Plus. But then we also do have a tier two screener should a child flag on our tier one screener, a tier two screener. we provide intervention at tier two level. most of our children ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. it. then. Holly Robbertz: If not all of them who receive Orton-Gillingham are identified with a specific learning disability in basic reading, endofluency, aka dyslexia. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. That's amazing that you have the availability to do that because I know not all places do and they can, it's kind of like we all know who the tier three kids are. It's not hard to spot them, but follow through for support and service that they get the consistent need for remediation and then ongoing support. Holly Robbertz: Yes. Cheryl Urbanczyk: because it's not just, okay, remediate and here you go, but they need that ongoing support. Holly Robbertz: They really do it. And one of the things that came about from House Bill 436 was a statement that said that school psychologists are able to, through child find, identify a child with dyslexia. Because there used to be confusion that you'd have to go to a neuropsychologist and get a medical diagnosis. we don't diagnose, we identify, but it's commis... Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, we can do that. Alright, well to kind of circle back to some of your training, like you are so fortunate because you've trained with some very important fellows like Angie Wilkins, Diana Hanbury King are founding fellows and very important in the history of the Academy. do you remember about them as ⁓ positive influence on you? Holly Robbertz: I like to say I come from a blended family of fellows for sure. And Cindy, I mean, Cindy has very strong, ⁓ Oregon Gillingham teacher practices. I think her background is an SLP with a real asset. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. exactly. Big F. Holly Robbertz: ⁓ She and I used to call ourselves the odd couple because we were very compatible but have very different and we're very honest about it with one another, love her pieces. ⁓ And then Karen Leopold and Diane, was just cool to get a different perspective and it did impact some of our teaching practices. And then we brought Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Holly Robbertz: those teaching practices back to Olin Tangi and establish certified training so that it's now available. when I trained, I she was in her late ⁓ 80s. was amazing. She had just come back from China where she had done a teacher training over in China. I think gave herself one day to recover and then taught ⁓ all to us and did SERT training. She did an amazing presentation on the history of the English language in her British accent. I always said I wish that they had recorded it. It just, was, you tell she understood the history in a way that was very natural and authentic. ⁓ And Diana, everyone knows, was quite a character. ⁓ So she would pause and at one point, I think someone asked a question about the etymology of a word. And she goes, oh, wait one minute. My husband is a linguist at Georgetown. Let me call him. So she, hello darling. Can answer this question about blah, blah, blah. So we're right here. She's talking to him. And then she got off the phone, goes, know, divorcing him was the worst decision I ever made. Diana was just Diana. Again, had this beautiful home and English gardens that we were able to visit while we were there. then Karen, I mean, Karen was devoted to Diana, took amazing care of Diana. then Karen moved out to Colorado. She was from Long Island. started cohorts out there. And I have friends that traveled to train under Karen in ⁓ Colorado. And then she created a Dolly Fit Fellow Group. And we would meet once a month. I think you were part of that, weren't you? Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, and that's how I met Nancy Redding. And I don't know who connected me to everybody, but then I joined that group, but it was ⁓ after Nancy had taken it over. Holly Robbertz: ⁓ okay. Yeah, she took it over for about a year and then it kind of quieted down. But it was a great way to stay in touch with people I had trained with and continue with Karen's fits. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. ⁓ really? Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, the community was so important to me and my fellow journey and helping me meet people and learn and, and all that kind of thing. So, that OG community is really great. And it's so neat, you have such a large number of people in your school district, because, I'm kind of a fellow by myself and other people, we're kind of on our own and it's just a different way of doing things. But I met Diana Hanbury King once at an IDA conference and I had bought her book English Isn't Crazy and she signed it for me. I'm so important. Holly Robbertz: No. And as you know, she was presenting up to the time she was 90. So we have a picture of our teachers, I think, at an OGA conference where we said, it's not be birthday to her. And she was still presenting on written expression at that conference. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Cool. Yeah, that's me. So what do you see is like, big challenges for OG in your district or what you see in the Ohio landscape? Every place is different in terms of. I don't want to say road bumps, maybe opportunities instead of challenges, but there's still, think people are learning more, but there's still a lot more people need to learn in terms of awareness and understanding and all that kind of stuff. Holly Robbertz: Well, one of the things I neglected to say is that during the pandemic, trained under Michelle Mira and Pete Bowers. that also was very impactful on our team and our, ⁓ think it was, and our understanding of morphology. And then as you know, we went to Island one summer. And has also had a deep impact ⁓ on Cheryl Urbanczyk: That's probably where we connected first, Holly Robbertz: Our perspective on morphology, we've connected with Sue Hegeland, our understanding of the English spelling system. I think for us, we are a large public school district and we service all children with disabilities. And so oftentimes our children who are getting Orton-Gillingham, I would say the majority have comorbidities. And so making sure that we are training our teachers so that they can meet the needs of complex students. ⁓ intervention specialists, in addition to OG, sometimes they're serving math minutes or sometimes they're, handling challenging behaviors. And we have pretty high expectations about their understanding of the English language and their service delivery to children with dyslexia. So our practicum has really evolved to a three-year practicum. And we've added in, in addition to all of the formal observations, we've added what we consider to be very important coaching sessions and building checks. At the end of the day, the thing we care about the most is that these practitioners are able to demonstrate a level of proficiency. so that they can best maximize the skills of our students. But we also want it to be emotionally sound for our teachers. In addition, of course, we want it to be for our students. And that's some of the reason why we're making it longer so that because usually we require all of our intervention specialists to take the first 30 hours of associate coursework. And if they're providing structured literacy, then of course they have to take all of the associate coursework and be in a practicum. First teachers, they're new. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: and learning a lot just on how to teach, let alone other stuff. Yeah. Holly Robbertz: Yes. So it's important for our team and we really try to be very caring and supportive so that our teachers have what they need to be successful. But if they don't have a choice, like they are required and so that works for some. it can be a challenge for others. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I really appreciate what you said about the comorbidity aspect. I think this is an important area where we could all learn more because we know that we rarely get that classic dyslexic profile where there's just dyslexia. There's the comorbidities of concerns of writing or attention or executive function or who knows what else. And I read something and I can't remember the reference to it, but it was kind of talking about the idea that like a lot of the science of reading stuff is when we look for evidence-based practices and things, it's all awesome, but that is usually done in just a peer reading setting only without all of that other comorbidity stuff happening at the same time. And then it's like, well, we all know our students come with so many gifts, but many areas where we need to support them in the lesson beyond just the literacy. Holly Robbertz: And I think the exciting part for practitioners that I like is really being able to look at the child's profile and matching instruction with their profile. And I think that's intellectually interesting. Cheryl Urbanczyk: very stimulating and challenging. Holly Robbertz: And I think the other thing, my mantra has always been because I kind of flip flop from a child centered approach to designing based on what I observed from children, knowing how they develop to a teacher directed approach. So often I'm asking our teachers, how do we make a teacher directed approach feel child centered? What are the things we can do to make it motivational and memorable? And it's one of the things I love about Mary Ann Wolfe. And even Rabo, because it's a multi-confidential approach. But if you go on her website, the name of her website is NEDO Learning, which is NEST. And it just talks, it even harkens back to, I don't know if you're familiar with Reggio Emilia. And again, really kind of looking at the whole child and being supportive in that way. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, yeah, and think the science of reading movement all of that stuff is really awesome, but some of these things are getting lost in the shuffle of all the conversation of trying to work it out, I think, and sometimes we can become too dogmatic the other way, if what I mean, and then that's not healthy either. So ⁓ it's hard. ⁓ Holly Robbertz: And an OG really is meant to be an approach. You know, there certain technical, procedural things that are helpful, simple to complex, all the things that are in the OG that are so important. But I think trusting the fellow, having that flexibility to be able to make decisions on behalf of that student and sometimes the practitioner so that it's a goodness of fit for all. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I completely agree with that. in terms ⁓ like the next growth area for your program and Kodalangi schools, what would you see as ⁓ place you haven't conquered yet or maybe conquered is the wrong word, ⁓ a goal for the next couple years, because I know some of the resources you've all made and what you're doing and it's just amazing. ⁓ but is there someplace yet you haven't gone that you'd like to? Holly Robbertz: That's a great question. what I always say to our team, as a world, I think we feel like we're sophisticated. And yet when we think about the first special education laws being written in the 1970s and even inclusion, I was part of its evolution that's now fortunately, really solidly happening in our school district. I feel like we're even in our infancy in terms of the implementation. of literacy in our school district. In addition to requiring all of our RISs and having them provide OG, we provide OG K through 12. We also hire 20 additional private tutors to meet the needs of our students. We have 1200 students who receive OG. Cheryl Urbanczyk: That's amazing. That's just unbelievably amazing. And I can't even begin to impact or like gather the impact on how important that is for those children to get it early and fast and not. Holly Robbertz: And you can tell with those students who move into our district that haven't, have students that come in, they're identified, they get some years of OG and then they exit. We have other students who get OG for a number of years. So to your question, there are a number of things we're looking at. We would love to gather, have a way to do some research and gather statistics on how this instruction is, some real numbers around how it's impacting our students. I think the other thing is, so I'm probably on a, I'll retire in about six years, people don't typically report but I've been very ⁓ explicit it because I want to make sure the district has what it needs and that there's succession planning in place. And we've been very deliberate. ⁓ yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: you want something sustainable that is not new, right? Yeah, that's me. Holly Robbertz: Yes, I think ideally we'd like the job as fits and fellows to be sustainable. we work pretty hard and I don't know if that will ever change. There's a lot of administrative tasks we do and things that are outside of the realm of desk teacher training. So one thing we this year is we actually assigned our fits to certain buildings. So they are those buildings fellows in training. It's made a huge difference because Cheryl Urbanczyk: It builds a knowledge base of the local site that they can really carry from year to year instead of, yeah, that's great. Holly Robbertz: Yes, because I see have to see everyone still because we don't have another fellow while they can have the people in their building. And that's been wonderful because now they know who to reach out to for supports. So that kind of creative problem solving to best serve the kind of things that we're looking at. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. That's so exciting. I should go on a field visit or something to your schools. ⁓ Yeah, something back to Ontario ⁓ Holly Robbertz: You would love it! You're always welcome. I consider you this. Yeah, we consider you an extension extended family member of Olin Tantie Schools. Cheryl Urbanczyk: That's great. you. I feel special. All right. Well, in order to wrap this up today, ⁓ don't you share if you're willing a piece of advice to people listening or maybe an advice you had wish you had heard at the beginning of your OG journey and we have these gems to share with others. What would be something you would like to share? Holly Robbertz: I think one thing that our team deeply values is a growth mindset, that keeping perspective, that we're all learning and growing. We all are very open about our shortcomings, which just feels very healthy. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Holly Robbertz: You know, if anyone had ever told me that I was going to be, when I first worked for all in Tangie schools, I worked in a high school and here I was an early childhood educator providing or, and I'm from new England. I'm in Columbus, Ohio. if anyone had ever told me I was going to be working with high school students, had like imposter syndrome. Like, you sure I'm the one you want? And it, I loved it. So I really think keeping an open mind, the other thing that we love is collaboration. It's very important to our team to meet, reach out to other fellows, other professionals, because that has helped us to stretch and grow as well. So ⁓ be good yourself, take care of one another, I think is the most important thing. need to grow intellectually as well as a social emotional way as much as possible. Cheryl Urbanczyk: because we can't do it on our own, especially that this all of us, know, literacy is such an important concept for us and that sharing of literacy and, wanting to not just have functional literacy, which is why I call ⁓ it for life, which is real engagement literacy is not a project. So. ⁓ Holly Robbertz: And I think supporting, it's not a field of all women, but there's primarily women and supporting one another's strengths. We really have people on our team that can do things that I can't do or can't do as well. We have our Deborah Hegg, who we consider our Latin scholar. We have our Deep Thinker, Sarah Ladda, who... Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yes. Holly Robbertz: just finished her master's degree and is bringing so much richness from her master's program and just beautiful thinking and authenticity. We have Becky Hall, who's a speedy processor, an amazing problem solver. We have Lauren D'Ariano, who is remarkably young for all the things that she's done and offers so much kind of strength and solidity to our team. We have Libby Brady, who is super conscientious we can count on her for so much. I mean, there's just a deepening of professional relationships within our team where it's okay to have other people with strengths and to support them. And what is it that they want to grow in and do? Cheryl Urbanczyk: and the job is big in a district too, right? So that teamwork, the support is ⁓ really ⁓ Well, thank you, It was so nice talking with you today. I really appreciate your time. And thank you for sharing OG journey and ⁓ about what you do. appreciate that. Thank you. Holly Robbertz: It's essential, Cheryl, you're so welcome and I'm deeply grateful for this opportunity.