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Mishlei 25:20 - Is Music an Effective Remedy? (Part 1) · The Mishlei Podcast

• 0:21
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so first announcement is uh there has been an issue with my laptop, and Zoom might break it, or maybe I solved it.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_04: So if I have to abruptly leave, that's why.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_04: Second announcement is uh this is a very difficult puzzle, just like um in a weird way, factually and translation-wise, like you'll see uh like there's gonna be a lot of speculation here, all right, more than usual.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um, okay, so it's uh Menshile 2520.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_04: Ma'ade beged biomkara humits al-Naser Vishar Bashirim al-Laiv Ra.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um I don't even know if anyone wants to speculate about what the translation is.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_04: Take that as a no.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so like uh what's it called?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's a certain substance that they use for I think they use it for making killas.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, yeah.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: So it is a very it is a substance, and that's part of the question, and that's part of why there's speculation about what substance it is.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm gonna let's just go through what we have from the uh our our dictionaries and sources here, and again, very, very um uh speculative here.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_04: So so ma de it's possible it comes from this word to pass on or to advance.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, now I don't know a an example of this, and it does not look like there are that many examples in the BDB here.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but a lot of the Mufarshim say it means removing a garment.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so let's just start off with that.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_04: Like removing a garment, byom kara, which would be what on a day you cry out?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so this is with a he.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_04: So on a cold day, oh, oh yeah, okay, so car, uh, and then homits al-Naser.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and like I'm adding the like because I assume that this is a uh an analogy, and like vinegar on um, so most people translate natir as natron, okay.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_04: And if you look, what should happen here?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_04: On natron.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so if you look at what natron is, and I I I'm familiar with this from the Naveem.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh so natron is a is a mineral salt found in dried lake beds consisting of hydrated sodium carbonate.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and then uh I just happened to see this search result here.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, what is natron in ancient Egypt, which is presumably you know gonna be what they uh you know, what Shlomo was referring to.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_04: Natron or native soda is a natural compound of sodium salts.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_04: Uh uh sorry, native natron or native soda, a natural compound of sodium salts was a very important product in ancient history.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_04: It was produced in Egypt, Middle East, and Greece.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_04: Natron was used for medicine, cookery, agriculture, and glassmaking, and to dehydrate Egyptian mummies.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_04: And in the the um uh actually, I just want to see if this comes up.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_04: So I'll tell you where I'm familiar with this from in Yermiahu, I think.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_04: Oh.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_05: Hmm.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_04: It might be a different form of the word.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_04: Oh yes, Yermiyahu.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_04: So netir, vitarbi lach boris, nichttam avunekhlafana, I think this is in the haftura on on uh of Devarim, that if you cleanse or you you launder with natir and you add, I think boris is another like form of like laundering agent, nichtam avuneklafanai, uh, then uh your iniquity is a stain before me, says Hashem.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_04: So it was used in um in like uh in cleaning, some sort of cleaning agent.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so we'll just say like vinegar on natron.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and because it's a sodium bicarbonate, or as it's a uh, what did it say?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_04: It is a carbonate uh sodium there, yeah.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think it does I think it does have a like vinegar on uh baking soda type effect, okay?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_04: So we'll assume that.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_04: The Shar Bashirien al Lavra.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_04: How would you translate that?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna I guess I'm adding that so is one who I think I don't know if your audio got messed up emotion.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think I didn't hear what you said.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_05: Shar here sing?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, anyone else wanna speculate?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_04: Shar Bashim I'll leave ra.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_07: Um is someone who sings songs on a harmful heart is bad.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, yeah.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_04: So this is gonna be another uh another issue here.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_04: So on a a bad heart, okay.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um so let's see how the how okay let's go into our translations here.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um all right, so Matsus uh says milosh kishut.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so he says it's like uh like losa a de ish a di isha, right?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_04: Like um uh like um one who adorns, okay, like um adornment, so removing garment or adorning a garment, okay.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_04: And then's uh cold.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_04: So he says it is a laundering um uh um like a detergent, basically, right?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_04: So like vinegar on a uh natron is a laundering agent, okay.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and then ra he says is mushbar kmo shane roa.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_04: So he says ra, it does not mean bad.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um he says it is a broken part, okay?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, um, like in the previous process, a broken tooth.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: So then we got the sadigon, okay.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_04: So you could see Kafak goes a little uh uh crazy here.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_04: Not crazy, but just like it's not just a translation.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_04: So he says, U kiposhit big do biomkor, like someone who removes his garment on a cold day, uka homit al naser, and like hometon naser, which he doesn't translate yet, kaka sharbshim allev atsuv.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so is one who sings um songs on a sad heart, all right, uh, or an aggrieved heart.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and this, but I forgot if I said this in Mishle recently, but um in Eov, right now in my Eov classes, I'm trying to drive home the point that Ra in Hebrew is very multifaceted.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: It can mean um bad, evil, corrupt, destroyed, you know, inferior, harmed, you know, um decomposing.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_04: And here we have another meaning is sad.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_04: It could also mean sad, all right.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um, just like tov does not mean like morally or objectively good, it can mean happy.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_04: All right, so then he goes on and he says, um I don't know how to pronounce that in Arabic, uh Savyad, blah, blah, blah.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_04: So he thinks it is a type of green earth or soft stone from which they make kalim for drinking water.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_04: Vatiru harampirus msechas kalim, um, and the ramen describes it in Mesachas Kalim, and he says, Natron ina nah lakhora.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_04: So he says he does not want to translate it as as uh natron.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um, kihu min melach, because that's a type of salt.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_04: Vyevsharla supposed to be made of kalim, and you can't make uh kalim out of it.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_04: Ah, mashmuff and rabinal coman, sheshbo mlikus.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_04: But then the side gone implies later on that it does have some sort of salty property in his perush.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_04: So the point I'm I'm reasonable why I'm reading this is to show that like he's not exactly sure what this is, uh, but he seems to incline towards the uh natron.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and then also Rev Amram Korah says, um Oh, yeah, so uh Amram Korach says that Ma'adeh is a lush of removing, which is from Daniel, which means one who removes or like deposes kings.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_04: And then he says it's the same word as regal mu'edes from our previous pasta, like a slipping foot, okay, like a removed foot.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so uh so that's that's going in the removal uh uh translation.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_04: Then we have, oh sorry, and then the nayster he says, so Sadigon says it's something salty, Ulaishu, Hanikrab Arabishav, whatever.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, fine.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_04: So we don't know what this is, and then Targum, I don't know what's going on with this Targum, and I couldn't even translate the whole thing.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_04: So he said it's a long Targum.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_04: De Shakum Martusa, one who takes a coarse wool garment, that's what Jastra says, Min Khabri, from his fellow Byomkar Dekarta, um, on a cold day.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_04: So he's saying you're not removing it from yourself, he's saying you're taking it away from someone else.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_04: All right, so that's that is one um uh one what do you call uh clue here um or one nuance.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_04: Hechu derame chela on nitra, and like one who pours vinegar on natron.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, I think nitra is just a translation of natron.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_04: Now, this is where I don't know what's going on.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_04: Umitsaref laliba kefa, uh kecha, and who adds to the heart kecha.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_04: Now, kecha is not in the dictionary, in the in the gastro.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_04: I could not find that word, so I don't know if this is a bad girsa or if something else.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_04: But then he goes on.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_04: Like a moth to a garment, the echmaltisa bakisa, and like a crumbling to a kita.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know what a kita is either.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_04: Hechna baryusa machada liba de gavra.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_04: Like, so does health bring joy to a person's heart?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_04: So I don't know, uh it's like he doubled the length of the puzzle.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know where he's getting this other stuff from.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I I checked to make sure that maybe this is uh uh the a la Torah has a translation of um uh it accidentally combined the Targum Ksufim to the next Pasuk.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_04: But the next Pasuk is our our friend Imray Sonakahilahu Lakham, which has nothing to do with any of this.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_04: So I just don't know what's going on here.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_04: So we're just gonna um do the best we can.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, then we got our English translations.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um art scroll says like an ornamental garden on a cold garment on a cold day.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: So that's getting it from uh um the Matsudis David or Mitsudis Sion, like vinegar upon natron, so is one who sings songs upon a sorrowful heart.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um okay, so that's yeah, so like an ornamental garment on a cold day.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_04: Corinne says, there's no refresh, like one who takes off a garment in cold weather, like acid upon nitre, is he who sings songs to a heavy heart.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_04: And then Aldrich says, one who takes off his garment on a cold day, vinegar on natron, thus the singer of songs to a downcast heart.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and then he says, vinegar on natron, the effect of vinegar on natron is to produce an acrid sizzle.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_04: All right, so that's again vinegar and baking soda.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so we we basically have two um options for ma de beged.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um, let's just say here, uh, or uh I'm gonna say an ornamental garment.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so either like removing a garment or like an ornamental garment, and then it's like removing garment from yourself or removing garment from your fellow, um, which is the targum on a cold date, and like vinegar on natron, uh, which I don't even know if we need to know that it's a laundering agent, um, so that's just what it is.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so is one who sings songs on a bad, broken, or sad heart.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so obviously our our our our main question is gonna be what uh is the relationship between these two mashalim, okay, and the nimshal.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm saying two mashalim here because even though we had um we've had now, what is it, three psukim?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_04: Let me just go back to the uh parak here.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_04: We've had a chain of trifold psukim here, right?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, we had the Mefits Vaherev Vechit Shanun, and then we had the Shane Ro of Regal Muedes.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I guess that was a quadruple.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_04: All right, well, it was triple mushal for one nimshal.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_04: Then we had Shane Roa of Regal Muedes and Miftach Bogabiyam Tsara, and then now we have Maane Begabiyom Kara Komiton Nasser.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_04: This one though seems like it is like it's too mashalom.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_04: Now it might not be, it might be like we did last time, like you have to join them together to get the Nimshal.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_04: But the main question is gonna be what's the what's the uh mushal getting at here?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, Isaac.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_05: Sorry.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_06: Um given that it's two Michelle, why is there no Vov connecting them?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think that's just a stylistic thing.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um, do we have that last time?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_04: Uh let me just make this a little bit bigger.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_04: Uh we have energy.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah, you we did have two last time.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_04: That's true.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think it's a stylistic question.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh if yeah, I'll just put this in here.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_04: And if this is two mashalim, uh sorry, ma ma shalim mashalim, uh, why is there no Vav uh connecting them?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Isaiah?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_07: Uh what's the difference not difference, relationship between the finger and the one with the lathe raw?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_07: Are they like the same person, different people?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, right.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so what yeah, what actually let's just ask this um uh as a broader way.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_04: How many parties are involved in the mushle and the nymphshawl?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, and the nymphshawl.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_04: And I'll spell I'll spell those out for all three of them, right?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_04: So are uh is it talking about a person taking off his own garment uh or wearing uh an ornamental garment uh on a cold day, um or taking off or providing uh your your friend's garment.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, that's one.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_04: And then second one is um well, I don't even know what the homeets and uh on Nasser is.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if you're trying to clean or whatever, so we'll just skip that.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_04: And then uh likewise um is this talking about uh the effects of a song on the person's own heart or on the heart of his friend?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't think those two necessarily have to correlate.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_04: In other words, you could say that it is taking someone else's garment on a cold day, that's the effect of you singing songs uh on your own heart or you know, or vice versa.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Isaac.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_06: What is a lev ra?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_04: What is a a lev ra?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then I'll just put the um like uh the the the question here, what does uh ra mean in this context?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_04: And and just some candidates here are um like bad uh you know in quality.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_04: Uh actually we should split this into two questions here.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_04: Uh what does lathe oops sorry what does lathe mean in this context?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh heart or mind.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_04: It you know, uh yeah, yeah, it's this the two questions are interrelated here.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_04: What does R mean in this context?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_04: Bad in in qu in in like objectively, objectively, uh, and if so, how, right?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_04: Or um broken uh slash uh I don't even know what's a slash sad, right?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_04: Sad um uh you know defective.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_04: I guess that would be bad.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I guess those are the three still.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, and broken could have fit into the other two qualities.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, I'll just say, okay, let's say bad, broken, or sad.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_04: And then like how objective of a description is this?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_04: I guess how objective is this quality?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_04: Is this quality?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, I feel like we have to ask what is the Hava Amina here, which we've been doing with these Pasukim.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um for yeah, here.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_04: And I assume it's gonna be Hava Mina on the the Shar Bashiram Alev Ra, not on the other two, because the other two I think are obvious.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_04: Or if we know what they are, then they're obvious.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_04: I think we do have to also ask what is the uh what is the practical application, right?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_04: In other words, is it saying that you should not sing songs for a bad heart?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_04: Or or what?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Isaac.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_06: What is Sharp Sharub?
• 17:17
  unknown: Yeah.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_04: What is what is that activity?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um what is being done in each of these clauses?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, but this is also I think there's also a like a like a definitional question of what you know what what that term specifically means.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, isn't that also what we're asking about?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah, I guess what what what are each of these three?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_04: What do each of these clauses mean?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um what is what physical um like uh effect or what physical action and effect is happening in each.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, I feel like that's I think these are the main questions.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I guess what's the subject, right?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_04: What is the subject of this process?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, yeah, where do we go from here?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I say I had a idea.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_07: Um maybe like I think it's kind of uh funny to have a permission later to take off.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_07: The way I was thinking about it was like um when you take off your clothes on like a really cold day.
• 18:35
  unknown: Yeah.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_07: Like it can be like a really like the sensation of like shocking yourself with the cold teeth is like thrilling, but also like it kind of feels like clean in a certain way, especially if you're sweaty.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_07: Um also like if you uh I think the the putting vinegar into the uh the neutron sounds like it looks to me like you're getting ready to do like a cleaning, you're it's like forming up to the NFU to like effectively clean things.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um maybe what's the thing of like thinging has the same effect on like a person who's like downcast as like these cleaning agents do on like I guess like you know, either physical things, like if you're using a cleaning product or like on your body when you uh like remove your garment and you feel that like cutting hold that sort of like clears you uh yeah just to ask uh here, I don't uh uh just make sure I'm understanding what you're saying and not projecting onto it.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: But like, in other words, with both of the phenomena mentioned in the first uh half of the PUSA, there is an objective effect that is related to um like there's an objective thing going on here, but like there like let me start with the vinegar on the natron thing.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_04: In other words, uh there I what I the impression I'm getting here is that there is an objectively beneficial effect, but part of that effect is produced by the subjective feeling that the sensation brings up.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_04: Like, in other words, um um I was I was like I was looking at or I saw a uh an advertisement for um Alka Celter, you know?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_04: I've never used Alka Celter, but like you can imagine that there is something really going on chemically, but there's also like a feeling of like, oh, it's it's fizzing, like that does something, like that, that actually is like like and that somehow helps the the the the the process similar to how like if you um uh I mean I don't want to go full on and say like placebo, but like you know, when I I also my most recent uh uh encounter with um sodium uh sorry with uh baking soda and and uh vinegar was that I noticed my kitchen sink drain was a little bit um like um slow.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, you know what?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just gonna try putting a bunch of baking soda down the thing and then pouring vinegar into it.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_04: And like it solved the problem, but part of the solving of the problem was like you see and experience like the you know, and so I feel like it like if it didn't do that, there'd be some sort of like lack in the effect.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_04: Is that the the zone that you're talking about, Isaiah, or am I just totally like projecting?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, no, it's like there's like a a feeling of these things being clean, but I think there also is like a clean, like also with the cold, like yeah, like you're less, I don't know, you the sweat like it doesn't bother you anymore, and maybe you are just not sweating enough.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so both of the phenomena in the first half um have a physical have a let's say a uh a real physical effect, but part of that effect is the accompanying uh subjective feeling of you know of the you know the feeling.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_04: So for example, i.e.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_04: um the the the um refreshing cool uh coolness um when you're hot or the um the pleasing sizzle of the vinegar on baking soda for cleaning.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um So too, a song um it can help a downcast heart.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, so we have to flesh this out, right?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, uh Ezra.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, uh I'm just I was learning that these two things are not good things.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you know, I also got the I got the vibe that it's not a good thing, also.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if this matters so much, but ChatGBT thinks that vinegar on natron is gonna like stop its beneficial effect.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, interesting.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: They'll sizzle, and but it's not gonna help like clean it or preserve it or something.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_04: Ah, okay, that's interesting.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_04: All right, so so um okay, so I I think that that is an interesting thing to pair it with, right?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_04: So um, so Ezra is saying that um that uh to the contrary, um sorry, to the to the contrary, um, the physical, I guess the the subjective sensations, uh sensations lead you to believe that some beneficial effect is going on, but just as removing a garment doesn't actually help you on a cold day, um I again I I don't exactly know the the context about like what the guy's trying to do and what's actually happening, but um and vinegar on natron doesn't uh actually um improve the the beneficial qualities of the natron.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_04: So too, singing songs to a uh downcast heart um might feel like it helps, but doesn't really.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_04: That's the direction you're going, Ezra?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_04: Or the the the the the implication?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, okay, good.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Isaac?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, so um along those lines, I think the um I think the Havamina is you know, the person sad, so you're gonna try to try try to cheer them up.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_06: But yeah.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_06: And I think there is that is uh something that you can do, but the way to do it is like by is like is like you have to be like gently try and cheer them up.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_06: If you're singing songs and like and like you know, which is I'd say is like um like over-the-top enthusiasm and joyfulness, um it's just gonna um alienate the person, it's gonna make them feel um like you totally don't understand them, you know, you you know, you're like and it's gonna make them feel worse.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_04: So just just to make sure I understand you correctly, are you are you taking singing songs not literally or are you using it as an example of something?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_06: I'm using it as an example.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, fine, yeah, right.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_04: So by by singing songs, uh, and so I I would say like um uh sing songs is like trying to address it through external like mood lifting devices, right?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_04: Like uh, you know, external superficial mood lifting uh lifting uh devices.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh so you know so Kamash Milan it won't work.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um and it will make it, I guess it it it might make things worse because because uh did you say why it m make things worse?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_04: Or am I imagining this?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I said it's gonna um make the person feel like you don't understand them at all.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, right, right.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_04: Because the person will feel like you don't understand them, and uh and that like sense of uh of like isolation uh will um you know will will uh I guess uh deepen uh or may deepen the sadness.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I I I have I could have an example of this.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, sure.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_06: Um especially so when we were going through a lot of issues with with the bonus sleep, um where she where like Aviva was ending up sleeping like less than two hours a night.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_06: Um so one of the the um people that that Aviva would talk to would say things like like you know, like soon you're gonna be walking her down the aisle and there's gonna be there's gonna be like a like a distant memory, or like or like um like or or like yeah, but she's you know she's so like cute and amazing and it's like yes, those things are are true, you know, but like it's so like not it's you know it's so much like trying to impose like artificial happiness and positivity rather than appreciating understanding you know what if you what if like what we're like going through that like it just made it was just more upsetting.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_06: Uh it's out here.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um I I there's so there's a question I have here.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_04: I I like this idea.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um anyone know what question I'm gonna ask from the Rama?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, where he says to go listen to music and then good, yeah, right.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I want to find that.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I think it's in Shmonapraqim chapter two or chapter maybe chapter one.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_04: All right, let's find Shmonaprakham.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_06: Um I think it's I think it's different if it's you're doing it yourself versus if someone is trying to like impose it onto you.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so then that might be an answer.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_04: Let's get the question first.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so does he even mention songs?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_04: She rin.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_04: No, he mentions um what do you call it?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_04: Suros?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_04: Suros nose.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_04: Uh are you are you thinking the same thing I'm thinking of?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:08
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: At the moment when we're doing it under paysack, we're like, oh, Suros Nose, what does that refer to?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_04: So what did he say it refers to?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think he says a nice out of like art, things like that.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_04: You know the other the other uh thing that people say?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_04: Well, women, yeah, beautiful women, right?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the Rom does say the Rom does say, I think, in maybe in Deus or like he says something about like someone who's like Stephen Type, I think he's a bold tourist noise.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think he does say that expression.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_04: I think so also, yeah, yeah, right.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_04: It is funny also because the Rom makes such a big deal about how tsura in in the Morning Buchanan he makes a big deal about how tsura is not the physical, right?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_04: That's Tora, right?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_04: You know, um, or same thing in the Mishnah Torah, he also says that.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's funny.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's what he means.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: You have to look at nice ideas.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's the point.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh just beautiful ideas.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_04: That that must be it.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um, let me just read this first, Isaac.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_04: Uh let's see.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_04: So uh where's it begin?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, R of you.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_04: So he says he's um R of Dir Khomasarfuos.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_04: So there he says there is a certain medicinal use of uh pleasing physical things.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_04: Kamosha kosha ta'avas.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_04: That's gotta be a uh a typo.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_04: Ta'avaso lama a hal.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_04: So let's say you are uh you have uh inappetite, right?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_04: Like you're you're not uh hungry for food.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_04: And you awaken the appetite, you appetise someone with um with food that is like uh spiced pleasantly.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_04: Shinefishada misavalhem that a person uh craves.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_04: If a person is um uh has uh melancholy, right?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_04: Uh black vial, uh meaning is depressed,emer.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_04: So that he does refer to music here, then he should remove it with the listening to songs and music.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_04: And uh walking around in like uh uh orchards or gardens and uh beautiful buildings.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_04: Vhevras Hatsuros Hayaphos.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, hevras hatsuros hayaphos.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_04: So that definitely sounds like people, right?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_04: Companionship of beautiful um forms.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_04: But um, in a way that widens the soul, which is harchavas nephesh and harchavas das are all these terms that like I feel like you have to look at every single context and see what it means because it's not clear.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_04: Uh like we I don't think we have that mushroom, like you could say mind expanding, but that's not what the way we say it in English.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_04: Vyasura hammar hashkora mimeno, and that will cure his depression.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, so in other words, so the question is uh so this what was this one or two?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_04: Uh this is oh hey, okay, it was Kamishi.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, um so Rambom in um Shmon Shemona Prakim chapter five, right?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_04: So um uh uh can uh you know aren't there cases in which a person can alleviate uh sadness uh or depression with music?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, if so, what is the difference um between that and this?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so Isaac answered, which I don't know if this is the only answer, but Isaac's answer is um there's a difference between when the sad person himself um utilizes this technique versus when someone imposes it on him um thinking it'll help.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Isaac.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_06: I have a different answer that I think might be more primary to what this process is talking about.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, go ahead.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_06: Which is uh the phenomenon that the post is the the mushalam seem to be where it where it's like a jarring contrast.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_06: Like when you take off a garment on a cold day, it's like jarring and unpleasant.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_06: So I think the the reason why this is a problem is not just that they're trying to cheer you up, but it's that they're trying to do it in a way where it's where it's where the like the disconnect is jarring.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_04: Right, okay, I hear that, right?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_04: So the contrast is uh is is uh is jarring, uh you know, and uh and that's why it doesn't work.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_04: Uh whereas the Rom Bombs um uh solutions uh seem to be more uh subtle, just for lack of a better term here.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that is interesting.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_06: Um if someone were to like sit with you and sympathize, I'd be like, come, let's take your mind off of it and go do something fun.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_06: That'll you know that's more likely to work.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I had I think I had an idea also.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just trying to think whether it's it's in the same vein or not.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_04: Give me one second.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_04: See, I think and maybe Isaac was getting at this in uh in the uh in in his uh in his example here, but like like give me one second.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_04: I think like there's a when when when when you're suffering from something real and deep and someone thinks they can uh cure it through something superficial, uh that makes things worse because um because uh like it uh what is called it doesn't cheapen, it um could jump in if you know what what I'm getting at.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_04: It like trivializes, right?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_04: It trivializes uh trivial trivializes um your your suffering, right?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_04: In other words, like like like you know, again, this is like if you're really, really you know, you you uh you're going through something really harsh in your life and someone says, chin up, you know, like, oh, really?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_04: Like, oh, I didn't think, or you know, have you tried not being depressed?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_04: Like it you can't solve it through something so simple.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_04: And like when a person suggests that or attempts to engage in that kind of solution, it reveals their belief that you're not really going through something that that bad, you know.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um and it couldn't, I think this is related to what Isaac was saying, is because there is a sense of like isolation or lack of empathy.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but uh I I I I I don't know if the trivializing thing is what Isaac meant.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_06: Uh so I just wanted to like uh Yeah, I think I think this is an additional dimension of it.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and it is, you know, again, I think this fits in what Ezra was saying, is that both of these um in the Michalin, both of these things are very surface level.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_04: Like uh, you know, um, so yeah, I uh Ezra, what were you gonna say?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have a different I have a slight different approach, but I don't know if okay.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um it has still has to be like clarified and outlined more.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that there's a certain feeling that when somebody's sad, you might think that the way to cure it is to sort of lean into the feelings and feel them more and sing about them, which a lot of people do sing about sad feelings.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: But see, I don't know exactly when this applies and doesn't apply, but like nobody when they're cold would say, Oh, take off another garment.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, that's that's not gonna help you, it's gonna make it worse.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes thinking about it and like actually like leaning into those feelings is just gonna make it worse.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, right.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, that that's a good approach.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_04: So Kamash Milan, um, just as taking off a uh a garment on a cold day is only going to make things worse.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_04: And then um uh I wonder if there's some sort of chemical thing where the homemates on Nasser also makes things worse, and something something yeah, something, something, natron and uh vinegar.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so too, um leaning into the uh the sadness uh will only make things sadder.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_04: Now, I'm gonna bring another question, not from the Raman, but from according to Pixar's Inside Out, um, right?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, I mean I think this is actually a good uh a good mushroom.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_04: Uh there are cases uh in which allowing yourself to feel what you're feeling um is an important part of of uh of you know solving the problem.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_04: Uh now I say important part because the it's not necessarily gonna do this on its own.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_04: So I just want to understand, you know, how does that work?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Yesber?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean just my first thought is that in a certain sense, this is the difference between my approach and the other approach, is that the other approach was assuming that it's like a real problem.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Here it's something which is like you're just in a bad mood.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're in a bad mood, it's not useful to just engage in that.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: But if you have a problem, then you should you shouldn't ignore the problem.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, okay, so that's a good distinction, right?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_04: So so perhaps this is a crossroads in sorry, crossroads in how we interpret the case in the PUSIC.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh the approach below assumes assumed this was a real deep problem, and that won't be solved by superficial means.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but this approach assumes that this is a surface level problem.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, like uh, you know, you're you're you're in a bad mood, um, and additional surface uh surface level um uh uh like um what I'm trying to say is like not helpers or supporters, but like surface level um interventions uh that that you know um deepen the mood uh will only make it worse.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so an example of this is like uh going to our favorite public about complaining, is that I I do think there are people who, when they are in a bad mood and they're complaining about something, you know, feel that venting is gonna make it better.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and when they vent to their friends and their friends like share their rage, then that's somehow gonna make it better.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_04: But really all it does is it just deepens the mood that they're already in and treats it, you know, in other words, it'll make it worse.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um because I think I'll say because it it will make the mood feel more real, right?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_04: Like, like, you know, before the mood was just internal in your head, but then when you externalize it with like either more sensory phenomena or like the lyrics or like you know, it it just it ends up feeling worse because you're you're you're adding fire, you're adding fuel to the to that fire of the of the uh of the mood, as opposed to to say like like you know, I I um uh I was uh a couple conversations I've had over the last couple weeks about how you know there are times when you are having a bad day and you're really not in the mood to learn or to go to a shear or or have a continuous with a harusa.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_04: And it's very easy to rationalize just not doing it.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um but what ends up happening is uh you know, my my my advice in those cases is you should always try to do it, unless you're like totally like out of it, but try doing it.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_04: And learning often has this mood-elevating feeling that just causes the the bad mood to dissipate.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so I think if you were to at that case, so though that would be the opposite approach.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_04: In other words, like it is a superficial problem, and you could dissipate it like uh like like a cloud, or you can just add to it and it'll just make it much more heavy and real, you know?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and that's the that's just gonna make things worse.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, that's good.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_04: I like this crossroads here.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_04: All right, let's look at the Masudis David just to see what he says uh with the ornamental garment.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um, unless actually, do we want to take, we've I think we've been um no, I think the ornamental garment actually also works for both interpretations, right?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_04: Because with Isaac's interpretation, uh or the interpretation we were taking before, if it's a real problem, then putting a superficial thing on it is not gonna help it.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_04: And um and same thing, uh oh no, no, I guess it doesn't work for Ezra's, right?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_04: Putting on an ornamental garment is not really analogous to I don't know.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe you could learn it learn it that way.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_04: All right, let's look at the Metsuus David for starters, and then we will have to continue tomorrow.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_04: Uh oh, by the way, tomorrow since it's Rosh Kodesh, I can go longer than uh nine o'clock.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_05: Um, why did this not go to Mitsuas David?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_05: Uh oh.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_05: Hold on.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_05: Let me just open it up again.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_04: The good news, by the way, is that it appears that my my laptop problem is fixed.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_04: So uh$120 maybe down the drain, unless I've there's a return policy, but uh we'll see what what happens.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_04: Uh but at least I can do stuff.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_04: Why is it not working?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_04: All right, we're gonna have to go to uh does MG Ketter, oh sorry, does MG Keter have it?
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um we'll find out.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_04: I think there's another website that has um Mufarshim on it, uh other than Mg Ketter and Alatora, but we'll we'll go there if if it need be.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um no, it doesn't have it.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_04: Alright, fine.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_04: So we'll I've heard that this site can be used sometimes for uh for for stuff.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_06: We'll see if it is the site I've never been here before.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Sefaria.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um okay, uh twenty.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, uh not twenty.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, twenty.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_04: Twenty and how do you even go to Mafarsham?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, commentary.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_04: So just like someone who puts on uh an ornamental garment on a whole cold day, Vinachmad who lamare ha'in and looks good, while in possess shumtualis, lahagin mehakor, but it doesn't have any uh benefit to shield you from the cold.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_04: Uh shofe chomit al-naser sh baavur rahus ha naser v chuzik kahomets, us daks dakim mi ma mimaal.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_04: I still know what you're trying to do, but um someone who pours vinegar on naser, that because of the softness of the neser and the strength of the chomits, then it'll make cracks from above, like it'll like us dissolve it, maybe.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know what we're trying to do, okay?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_04: But the the the komits will not like overpower to smooth out smoothnesses separate.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_04: Kinhu Hashar Bashiri Simch.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe, maybe, yeah, yeah.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_04: I'll have to look into that.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh uh Kenhu Hashara Bashiri Simcha Allev Nishbar Hamalaya La Tuga.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_04: So too, if you try to to um sing uh happy songs on a heart that's broken, that's filled with sorrow.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_04: Even if he opens his mouth filled with laughter, Miko Makamatob, so he's still gonna have a uh sadness in his heart and it's not gonna go away.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_04: All right, so let's think about that for tomorrow.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it seems to be uh in line with uh with our approach, but um, we'll see if there's any uh new fiddlesh there.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_04: All right, that ended up being a lot better than I thought.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I was a little worried about this panzak.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_04: All right, so Bly Netter, we will continue tomorrow.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and my laptop is okay, so yeah.