Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #696 Education Conversations with Gabbie Stroud

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#696 Education Conversations with Gabbie Stroud · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
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  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for.
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  Speaker 1: The time poor parent who just once answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now, Hello, This is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of
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  Speaker 2: Happy Families dot com dot you is we wind our
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  Speaker 2: way into Term one of twenty twenty three. I love
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  Speaker 2: a lot of the conversations that I get to have
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  Speaker 2: as a result of the podcast. A little while ago,
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  Speaker 2: I came across a book by Gabby Stroud. The book
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  Speaker 2: is called Dear Teacher, and while confession time, I haven't
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  Speaker 2: actually read the whole book, I was so enamored by
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  Speaker 2: the excerpt that I saw that I dived into that.
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  Speaker 2: And then I looked Gabby up and listened to a
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  Speaker 2: podcast or two, and I saw her in an interview
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  Speaker 2: or two, and I thought, oh, my goodness, parents and
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  Speaker 2: teachers need to know who Gabby Stroud is. I'm sure
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  Speaker 2: that more of you know who Gabby is than don't.
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  Speaker 2: But Gabby joins me on the Happy Famili's podcast just now.
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  Speaker 2: Gabby is a former school teacher, an author who writes
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  Speaker 2: just Beautifully, a mum of two kids, and thanks so
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  Speaker 2: much for being with me as we kick off Term
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  Speaker 2: one of this year.
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  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me what a time it is.
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  Speaker 2: So I think we're starting this year normally for the
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  Speaker 2: first time in three years. But I'm getting a lot
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  Speaker 2: of emails from people, and I'm sure you are too,
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  Speaker 2: who are sort of saying, Oh, my kids are nervous
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  Speaker 2: about school, or my kids don't want to go to school.
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  Speaker 2: I'm dealing with school refusal. You've stood in the shoes
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  Speaker 2: of a parent and in the shoes of an educator.
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  Speaker 2: What sort of a conversation do we need to be
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  Speaker 2: having with our kids, with each other, with teachers as
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  Speaker 2: we kick off the year. How would you suggest we
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  Speaker 2: approach even this conversation that you and I having right now.
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  Speaker 1: Look, you know, it's funny the start of a normal
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  Speaker 1: school year, normal in inverted commas. I'm not sure we'll
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  Speaker 1: ever be back to what we knew normal to be.
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  Speaker 1: We've all been affected by the change in our planet
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  Speaker 1: recently and the way we relate to one another and
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  Speaker 1: the way we're thinking about the world. You know, the
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  Speaker 1: thing I'd be going in for at this point in
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  Speaker 1: time if I was talking to anyone parents, teachers, even
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  Speaker 1: the kids returning to school. I feel as though we
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  Speaker 1: need to get our head in the game. It's about
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  Speaker 1: our mindset right now? How are we thinking about things
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  Speaker 1: as we go into this new year and into this
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  Speaker 1: school year.
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  Speaker 2: So let me ask you, then, what do you reckon?
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I talk to a lot of parents, but
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  Speaker 2: I don't talk to them about this topic specifically. And
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  Speaker 2: when you say that, I kind of think what is
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  Speaker 2: a parent's mindset as the school year kicks off? It's
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  Speaker 2: obviously going to differ developmentally depending on whether your child's
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  Speaker 2: going into their first year of big school, or whether
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  Speaker 2: they're in grade nine and just dragging their knuckles as
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  Speaker 2: they walk out the door, or if they're in year
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  Speaker 2: twelve and thinking, oh my goodness, I've got like three
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  Speaker 2: terms to go, it's almost finished. So when you talk
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  Speaker 2: about getting into the mindset, especially after like a six
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  Speaker 2: week break or whatever it's been, what do you mean
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  Speaker 2: by that.
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  Speaker 1: Well, one of the things I'd love parents to remember
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  Speaker 1: as we take our kids back to school is that
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  Speaker 1: they're going to meet teachers, they're going to be engaged
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  Speaker 1: with the school community, and we see that very much
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  Speaker 1: as a learning environment. But it's really important as parents
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  Speaker 1: that we remember we are the first and the lifelong
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  Speaker 1: educator of our child. So it's not drop the kids
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  Speaker 1: back at school set and forget oh, thank goodness, we
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  Speaker 1: don't have them home kicking around under our feet for
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  Speaker 1: the school holidays anymore. It's very much a continuation of
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  Speaker 1: our role as their primary educator. Just by the very
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  Speaker 1: nature of that child being birthed from you, that child
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  Speaker 1: looks to you as their educator for forever, and so
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  Speaker 1: that's really important that we remember that as parents as
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  Speaker 1: we drop our kids at the school gate, and I
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  Speaker 1: think to it's important for teachers to remember that too.
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  Speaker 1: Teachers don't have to carry this whole big load of
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  Speaker 1: educating the class in front of them all on their own.
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  Speaker 1: It's a partnership. It's teachers and parents working together. And
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  Speaker 1: when we think like that, we had better results for
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  Speaker 1: everyone who's on that team, that's behind that student that's
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  Speaker 1: going through that school experience.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm thinking about this idea of parents being the
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  Speaker 2: number one educator, the lifelong educator of that child, and
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  Speaker 2: two thoughts are coming to my mind, and I want
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  Speaker 2: to share them both and see what your reaction is.
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  Speaker 2: The First one is this idea that we would outsource
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  Speaker 2: education is still a relatively modern invention. I mean, universal
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  Speaker 2: education in school across most of the world, except for
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  Speaker 2: some particularly privileged people a few centuries ago and even
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  Speaker 2: millennia ago. Well, there's always been an encouragement for education.
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  Speaker 2: It's only become universal what in the last let's say,
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  Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty years, late eighteen hundreds, even in France,
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  Speaker 2: and they were kind of on top of the game,
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  Speaker 2: they were in the late seventeen hundreds, early eighteen hundred,
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  Speaker 2: so it's a pretty new invention. Until that time really
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  Speaker 2: did do all the education. So that's my first, I
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  Speaker 2: guess reaction to what you're saying. We've adapted to it
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  Speaker 2: really quickly and become very comfortable with just saying, all right, kids,
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  Speaker 2: you go to school, the learning happens there. But as parents,
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  Speaker 2: we've got this huge task to do that lifelong education.
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  Speaker 2: Which leads me to the second reaction that I have
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  Speaker 2: to what you've said, and that is, if we are
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  Speaker 2: the primary and the lifelong educators of our children, what
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  Speaker 2: are we teaching them? Like when I think about what
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  Speaker 2: we might do when the kids come home, what are
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  Speaker 2: we teaching them? Are we teaching them that life is
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  Speaker 2: about hustle and bustle we need to hurry, that life
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  Speaker 2: is about filling our agenda, our calendar with heaps to
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  Speaker 2: do that life is about taking. And I say this.
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  Speaker 2: I say this meaning to be generous. In our best
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  Speaker 2: efforts to fill our children's lives with all of the
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  Speaker 2: great enrichment activities that we can, we have to take
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  Speaker 2: shortcuts in other areas, like getting fast food and eating
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  Speaker 2: in the car three nights a week or And I
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  Speaker 2: know I'm kind of piling on the guilt. I'm not
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  Speaker 2: trying to do that, but I guess my question is,
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  Speaker 2: what are we teaching our kids? If we're outsourcing the reading, writing,
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  Speaker 2: arithmetic sort of stuff to the schools, what are we
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  Speaker 2: teaching We're having conversations about sex, consent and staying safe,
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  Speaker 2: or about alcohol and drugs. We talking to them about
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  Speaker 2: these things. I don't know what's your reaction to that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, as a parent, we're teaching our kids all
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  Speaker 1: the time. Even those teenagers who are acting as though
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  Speaker 1: they don't care and they're not interested in us, they
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  Speaker 1: are looking at us sideways, you know, the little side
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  Speaker 1: glance when they look up from their device. Our kids
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  Speaker 1: are absorbing us all the time, like sponges. They're watching us.
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  Speaker 1: They're watching the way we speak to the to the
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  Speaker 1: kid that drive through that serves us. You know, they're
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  Speaker 1: watching the way we manage all that hustle. They're watching
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  Speaker 1: the way we plan and organize things. We as the parents,
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  Speaker 1: we teach our kids so much about how to do life. Recently,
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  Speaker 1: through all that stuff with the pandemic, we taught them
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  Speaker 1: how we cope in a crisis. We are teaching our
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  Speaker 1: kids how to respond, how to be in the world,
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  Speaker 1: how to enact with the circumstances that come up with
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  Speaker 1: you know, around us. We teach them how to be
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  Speaker 1: in relationship to others. And I think that that's why
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  Speaker 1: it's important to think about that as we send our
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  Speaker 1: kids back to school, because the way we as parents
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  Speaker 1: respond to that return to school or that going to
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  Speaker 1: school for the first time, we teach our kids some
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  Speaker 1: really particular mindsets about feelings about school. So if we
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  Speaker 1: ourselves had a pretty traumatic or a bad experience of school,
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  Speaker 1: we can really easily pass that trauma and that anxiety
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  Speaker 1: onto our kids.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that would be me. And I've even said things
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  Speaker 2: Gabbie like, oh, yes, school feels like a prison, Like
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  Speaker 2: my kids have heard me say that, because that's how
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  Speaker 2: it felt to me. And you're right, the modeling, the
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  Speaker 2: modeling that we exhibit, the teaching that we do without
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  Speaker 2: even realizing it is profound.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, how we talk about teachers, the kind of
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  Speaker 1: after school talk that we do around the playground as
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  Speaker 1: we let the kids have a last little play before
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  Speaker 1: we jump in the car at the end of the
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  Speaker 1: day at school pickup. You know, the way we talk
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  Speaker 1: about teachers, the way we talk about things that are
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  Speaker 1: happening at the school. Our kids pick up on that.
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  Speaker 1: They soak that up and that can really imprint strongly
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  Speaker 1: on them about their feelings about school and their perception
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  Speaker 1: of school as well. So it's really important that as
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  Speaker 1: parents we think about the mindset that we have and
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  Speaker 1: then what the kids are picking up from us as
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  Speaker 1: that kind of educator that we are, even though it's
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  Speaker 1: kind of like a sly education that we're giving because
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  Speaker 1: they're just watching us, they're listening, and they're picking up
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  Speaker 1: our vibe.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of like teaching by immersion and by osmosis.
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  Speaker 2: It just sort of settles on them. In fact, even
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  Speaker 2: when you use that word mindset, my definition of mindset
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  Speaker 2: is it's a settled way of viewing or thinking about things.
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  Speaker 2: It's just your attitude towards it, and great reminder about
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  Speaker 2: what our mindset or our attitude towards our kids and
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  Speaker 2: their education might be in order to best facilitate their success.
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  Speaker 2: I was speaking with Gabby Stroud. You can find more
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  Speaker 2: about Gabby at Gabbystroud dot com. What else do you
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  Speaker 2: think parents need to hear Gabby when we're having this conversation.
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  Speaker 1: Another big thing, as we know recover from that first
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  Speaker 1: week back at school, is to remember that we're all
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  Speaker 1: on the same team. So your child's teacher wants the
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  Speaker 1: exact same things for your child that you want for them.
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  Speaker 1: It's a really funny time for education. It's kind of
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  Speaker 1: trying to operate under a business model, and that's not
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  Speaker 1: really great. And what that has done is it's sort
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  Speaker 1: of positioned parents as though they're consumers and schools as
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  Speaker 1: though they're sort of a marketplace that's offering a particular product,
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  Speaker 1: and it's not really the best way for education to operate.
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  Speaker 1: And it's sort of then positions parents to think that
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  Speaker 1: if something goes wrong, you go and have a complaint,
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  Speaker 1: You go in and say what went wrong, and you
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  Speaker 1: go and see the teacher and you get it all
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  Speaker 1: sorted out, and it then positions the teacher as though
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  Speaker 1: they're the owner of the shop, and you know, the
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  Speaker 1: customer is always right, and we have to make an adjustment.
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  Speaker 1: We need to shift that mindset, you know, and we
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  Speaker 1: need to remember that the teacher really wants the exact
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  Speaker 1: same things that the parent wants. We want those kids
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  Speaker 1: to prosper. We want them to grow, we want them
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  Speaker 1: to achieve. We want them to fail and to learn
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  Speaker 1: from that failure. We want them to learn that achievement
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  Speaker 1: comes from effort. We want them to have a goal.
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  Speaker 1: We want them to feel safe, we want them to socialize.
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  Speaker 1: We all want the exact same things. And so if
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  Speaker 1: we can kind of align ourselves with that and recognize
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  Speaker 1: that the teacher and the parent, we're all on the
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  Speaker 1: same team. We're all cheering for this kid to have success.
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  Speaker 1: If we can have that kind of mindset, and if
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  Speaker 1: we can have that not even just a mindset, but
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  Speaker 1: to truly believe that and to recognize that it's actually
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  Speaker 1: going to grow a really lovely, healthy productive relationship between
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  Speaker 1: teacher and parent, and that kind of healthy productive relationship
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  Speaker 1: is only going to see that student thrive, which is
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  Speaker 1: ultimately what we all want. Yeah, I love that.
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  Speaker 2: I felt like standing up at applauding. That was really
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  Speaker 2: really powerful. The impact that not having a positive relationship
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  Speaker 2: with the teacher has on everything to do with schooling
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  Speaker 2: is profound. We've had that with one of our kids.
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  Speaker 2: We've got six kids, one of them. We had that
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  Speaker 2: one year and we watched motivation, we watched well being,
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  Speaker 2: we watched approach to school just suffer so very much
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  Speaker 2: as a result. So really really nice idea. Is there
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  Speaker 2: anything else, like if we were if we were to
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  Speaker 2: give one more key takeaway for parents as they're settling
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  Speaker 2: into the new year and making all this stuff happen.
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  Speaker 2: Is there anything else that you think that we should
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  Speaker 2: talk about?
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  Speaker 1: I think that the I'd sort of like to leave
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  Speaker 1: your audience with the question, which is what is school for?
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  Speaker 1: You know, why don't we send our kids to school?
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  Speaker 1: It can't just be so that we go to work,
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  Speaker 1: because that's a pretty ordinary reason, and it can't you
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  Speaker 1: know that as an answer means that we just send
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  Speaker 1: our kids to school so our economy can keep going.
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  Speaker 1: And that's a very frail reason to put our kids through,
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  Speaker 1: you know, ten twelve plus years of education.
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  Speaker 2: I've got to jump in just for a second. This
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  Speaker 2: because I asked this question of a bunch of friends recently.
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  Speaker 2: We were standing around having a good catch up, and
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  Speaker 2: we were talking about school, and some pretty negative attitudes
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  Speaker 2: came out about school is part of the conversation, which
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  Speaker 2: often is the case because school is not always positive
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: for every kid. And they were talking about their own
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  Speaker 2: experiences and I was sharing mine and they were sharing
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  Speaker 2: their kids' experiences, and we were having that conversation and
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  Speaker 2: I actually asked that question, what's the purpose of school?
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  Speaker 2: And I think there would have been four, maybe five
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  Speaker 2: people in addition to me in that conversation, and I
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  Speaker 2: was met with blank stares. It's almost like, well, it's
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  Speaker 2: just it's just what we do. It's part of the
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  Speaker 2: fabric of our society. We don't even we don't even
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  Speaker 2: notice it. It's just there and it's it's what we do.
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  Speaker 2: And there was there was kind of just this vague
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  Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure. Well, we need it because that's
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  Speaker 2: how we get into university so that we can go
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  Speaker 2: and do what we really want to do with our lives.
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  Speaker 2: So that's how we We've just got to do it
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  Speaker 2: because the government makes it compulsory and as you've said,
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  Speaker 2: there's that there's that economic aspect to it as well.
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  Speaker 2: So when you hear that question, what's your answer, what
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  Speaker 2: is the purpose of school?
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  Speaker 1: Well, I've thought about this question long and hard, and
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  Speaker 1: it's the same answer that you get when you don't
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  Speaker 1: think about it very much. Like you send kids to
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  Speaker 1: school to learn, you know, to learn all the things
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  Speaker 1: social skills, reading, writing, and arithmetic, problem solving, cooperation, all
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  Speaker 1: those things, all of those things. But then if we
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: send them to school to learn, then what is learning
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  Speaker 1: all about? It? Kind of this is a question that
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  Speaker 1: leads you down a little rabbit warren of other questions.
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  Speaker 1: What is learning about? Why do we learn? You know,
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  Speaker 1: we learn because we're human and so inherently we're curious,
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  Speaker 1: and we learn because through learning we can grow and
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  Speaker 1: we can achieve things, and we can contribute to our
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  Speaker 1: society because we live in society, we live in communities. Again,
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  Speaker 1: this is just because we're human. So when you really
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  Speaker 1: follow this thought along, you discover that learning is actually
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  Speaker 1: a really important thing. It's vital for our survival. And
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: then it leads me into questions about so, if learning
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: is so vital and it's important for our survival, and
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: it's inherent with us within us, because we're curious, is
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  Speaker 1: learning a competition? And do we send our kids to
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  Speaker 1: school to compete with one another? And if that's if
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: that is the case, then how do we determine winners
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: and losers? And what happens to our learning when we
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: feel as though we're the loser. And you know, I'm
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: really opening up a big can of worms for everyone
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: that's listening. But I'd love for parents to think about that,
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  Speaker 1: because that is part of what I see as being
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: a little bit of a problem in education at the moment.
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  Speaker 1: This business model and this idea of learning being a
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: competition and we're going to pit the kids against one
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  Speaker 1: another and say who learned that best and what school's
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: performing best based on these tests. It's something we all
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: need to think carefully about, because really, if learning is
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: that important, then our school should be the healthiest, most
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: sort of most thriving places in our communities, and our
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: teachers should be the happiest people and the people who
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: are so pleased to show up for their jobs every day,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: and our kids should be singing as they go out
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  Speaker 1: the door ready for a school day. And I'm not
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  Speaker 1: sure that always happens, and the only way it's going
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  Speaker 1: to change is if we all start thinking, well, what
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: is school for? What is it about? Why do we
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: do it?
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  Speaker 2: Gebbie, I want to say the hard thing now, because
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  Speaker 2: I'm in love with what you've said, But the hard
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  Speaker 2: thing is, for too many of our kids, and for
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  Speaker 2: too many of our teachers as well, school is not
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  Speaker 2: those things that you've just articulated. School is not fun.
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  Speaker 2: School is not a place of learning. School is not engaging.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: School is not a place where curiosity is fed and
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: that light is lit where we want to continue discovery.
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  Speaker 2: School is a place of pain and rote memorization and
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: high levels of demands and feelings of incompetence and social isolation.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm just talking about the teachers here, right, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I'm just kidding, But it's that kind of process for
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: that kind of experience far too many of our kids. Now,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: we obviously can't solve the education challenges that this country
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: has in a fifteen minute podcast with happy families. But
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: maybe if we as we reflect on your three big
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: ideas that we've just talked about, this idea of getting
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: our mindset right, getting the same team as the teacher
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: and really focusing on the learning and the discovery the
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: development of the child through an education process. Can I
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: ask a tricky question to wrap up, and that is
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: if the answer is no, that's not how it is
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: for my child, If somebody's listening right now, or if
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: there's a teacher who's saying, that's not how it is
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: for half the kids in my classes, that's not how
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: it is for me. What do we do to I guess,
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: provide some hope, to offer a pathway forward for those
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: people who are struggling from an education point of view,
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: whether it's adults or kids.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: This is the tricky question, and it is the hard one.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: But here's the thing, and it's going to sound simple,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: but it is complex and this is not researched. This
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: is my instinct answer, and that is that learning is
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: all about relationships. Yes, it is both as simple and
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: as complex as that. And so if there's a teacher
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: or a student out there that's listening and struggling with school,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: and that parent is feeling that that student's pain, what
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: needs to be remedied are relationships, and so it actually
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: then is going to have to go back to conversations, mindsets,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: going in and talking to teachers and getting on the
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: same team teachers talking to students and bringing them in
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: on the same team. But also bigger than that, those
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: barbecue backyard conversations, those down the street conversations, those playground
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: conversations where adults are talking with adults, parents with parents.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: We need to start really talking about what we want
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: our schools to look like. And that's how we make
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: our schools and design our schools so that all kids
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: feel as though they're succeeding and that there's something there
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: for them, and that all teachers feel as though they're thriving.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: And again, so that comes down to relationships and conversation,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: and it seems so basic and it seems so simple,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: but that's that's where it's got to be. That's where
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: it's got to start. This change in education that's so
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: needed is not going to come from a politician, but
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: it's just not. It's going to be a grassroots movement
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: and means it's us.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Gabby Stroud, the author of Dear Parents, the author of Teacher.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: Find her at Gabbystroud dot com. Wish we could talk
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: for ages, Gabby. This has been such a delightful conversation.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining me, thanks for having me.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: We will link to Gabby's resources in the show notes
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: so that you can find more about her. And if
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: you're an educator, you might like to have Gabby show
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: up at your school and talk with the staff or
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: even the parents. She's just delightful and absolutely wonderful to
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: listen to and engage with. The Happy Families podcast is
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: produced by Justin Ruland for Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: our executive producer. For more information about making your family happier,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: please visit us at Happy Families dot com dot you. Oh,
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: and in a couple of weeks time, we've got a
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: webinar for you about what to do when school sucks,
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: because the reality is for some kids it does, and
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: we want to make that less of a problem. So
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: please visit us at Happy Families dot com dot IU
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: for that information