Latest / Sessions Canceled / Designing That Movie Magic: Ep. 56

Transcript

Designing That Movie Magic: Ep. 56 · Sessions Canceled

• 0:10
  Welcome back, everybody. The DM murdered one of his
• 0:13
  players over an argument because the Druid play a really, really
• 0:17
  want to be an owlbear and he just would not let him happen.
• 0:20
  So sessions canceled while we hide the body for Josh.
• 0:59
  Hello, we're here, Sam is here. Hi Isaiah is here.
• 1:04
  I am here. Matt is, unfortunately here, let
• 1:07
  me out. Let me out.
• 1:10
  Yeah, I don't think I will ever have.
• 1:14
  Oh, wow. Just turns to the skeleton of
• 1:16
  brown. As a as a some of you say may
• 1:24
  have noticed from the references.
• 1:26
  We're talking about the D&D movie, except we're not actually
• 1:28
  talking about the deal. We are going to reference it a
• 1:31
  little tiny bit. I How does an ideal recently I
• 1:37
  was inspired by the muses from on high.
• 1:41
  And by that, I mean, I was listening to another podcast
• 1:44
  called the elders Floor cast, and they mentioned a particular
• 1:48
  scene in the D&D movie honor among Thieves for those
• 1:53
  listening. Don't worry.
• 1:53
  I'm not going to spoil anything major.
• 1:55
  It's, I mean, if you're unless you're one of those little
• 1:57
  bitches who considers any information about a movie at
• 2:00
  all, is a spoiler. Then I guess I'm spoiling it.
• 2:02
  But if you're a reasonable human being, I'm not spoiling it.
• 2:04
  You guys remember? When Lord soft cloth.
• 2:06
  Dresses hand in the movie while shut the fuck up, I have zero
• 2:12
  contacts appear that movie. That's just say words as you do.
• 2:23
  But what I want to talk about, hey it's harrowing day is very
• 2:29
  heroin. Is the idea of cinematic game
• 2:34
  design? Cinematic is the word.
• 2:38
  I'm going to use here as the like the I don't know title I
• 2:46
  guess I don't know. Whatever cinematic is the phrase
• 2:48
  we're going to use but I don't only mean making your game feel
• 2:52
  like a movie. I'm just I'm talking generally
• 2:55
  about how you can design or in the case of if you're running
• 3:00
  your own game, how you can hack to make your game have more of a
• 3:04
  cinematic Vibe Allah. A movie.
• 3:06
  Allah a video game. Allah anime.
• 3:08
  Allah cartoon like any of that shit.
• 3:11
  Everything's on the table. So I'm going to explain before
• 3:17
  we really get into it. What the fuck?
• 3:18
  I mean by that. That's seven seconds, right?
• 3:21
  I can say fuck it. Will pass.
• 3:24
  Seven seconds. Yeah, the first seven seconds,
• 3:27
  whereas the first seven minutes seven seconds.
• 3:29
  Okay, we're good. Yes.
• 3:33
  So let me explain. What the hell I'm talking about?
• 3:40
  So, another way you could describe cinematic game design,
• 3:46
  is sort of selling the fantasy of a character idea or selling
• 3:52
  the fantasy of the type of game. You're trying to play on a very
• 3:55
  broad sense. The Andy is trying to sell you,
• 3:59
  the fantasy of being, you know, sort of pseudo superhero fantasy
• 4:04
  Warriors, a game, like vampire masquerade is selling the
• 4:08
  fantasy of being A vampire in the Modern Age trying to live
• 4:11
  out and be secret and do all that political Intrigue shit.
• 4:15
  I'm like cyberpunk is sort of selling you the fantasy of being
• 4:18
  your sort of rebellious, Freedom, Fighter e, cyberpunk
• 4:22
  badass, who's gonna blow up the megacorp building, you know,
• 4:24
  that's, you know, selling the vibe selling the fantasy, The
• 4:27
  Cinematic feel of what your game is about, or what your
• 4:30
  characters are. No reason we were talking about
• 4:35
  the DVD movie, he's in this was on my brain is there's a scene
• 4:41
  and honor among Thieves, where the Druid character Doric has to
• 4:45
  like sneak into a castle. We're like a foreigner or
• 4:48
  something like that. It's more of like a fort.
• 4:52
  But anyway, it doesn't matter. She starts the scene as a fly
• 4:58
  and then she gets discovered and then she basically it ends up
• 5:01
  being sort of like a sort of like a heist movie style like
• 5:06
  Chase sequence. So she goes from like a fly,
• 5:08
  then she transforms into a mouse and then she turns back into a
• 5:11
  human and at one point she goes like back into a mouse and then
• 5:13
  she like falls out of window and shoot turns into a bird.
• 5:15
  And then she goes down to the fucking streets.
• 5:17
  It turns into like a deer and she wild shapes like six six or
• 5:23
  seven times. I counted it it leave it.
• 5:25
  I believe it was six in that one scene.
• 5:30
  And so I was listening to another podcast the elders
• 5:32
  forecast to also talk about tabletop things.
• 5:36
  And they were saying how cool that seed was and how like you
• 5:40
  know it really sells the the fantasy of being a druid is like
• 5:45
  doing the crazy shape change to like break in and do your little
• 5:48
  Espionage Mission and then try and Dodge the guards by turning
• 5:51
  into like a small animal or whatever.
• 5:52
  You know, that whole like Cool vibe of like what a druid is
• 5:56
  kind of supposed to do and what they feel like Problem is not
• 6:03
  only does she wild sheep six times.
• 6:05
  She also goes from one animal form to another Which also
• 6:09
  doesn't work that whole scene just like doesn't work rules as
• 6:14
  rib could not actually do that first for first problem.
• 6:18
  The Druid does not have that many wild shapes.
• 6:21
  You get to you, would Rend lecture level 20, you'd run out
• 6:24
  real quick also, the way she sort of snuck in and like Chase
• 6:30
  sequence itself, you know, might be kind of tricky to run
• 6:33
  depending how you're doing it? There's some parts or it's like,
• 6:35
  oh, that would be a bit potentially hard.
• 6:38
  So, you know, the rules is written that doesn't work, but
• 6:41
  it's a great idea. It's very fun idea.
• 6:44
  It really hones in on the fantasy of a drupe.
• 6:47
  So then the the again, sort of a ping off the other Elders, or
• 6:53
  cast, they started talking about, like, Oh, you know what
• 6:57
  might how could you make it work?
• 6:58
  And what kind of design might you have to do to actually make
• 7:01
  this function in a game and then that sort of spout into a
• 7:04
  greater conversations? So that's what I mean by
• 7:08
  cinematic game design is like, with this specific example, what
• 7:13
  kind of design do you have to do to make it?
• 7:15
  So that scene in the movie is the Druid put actually work in
• 7:19
  your tabletop, you know, in your tabletop campaign intercession
• 7:22
  and it would be cool and not you know or like what make it flow?
• 7:29
  Well Feel so cinematic. I I do have an idea specifically
• 7:36
  for like, the the wild shape Druid, you know.
• 7:40
  So, one thing that you could do is instead of making wild shape,
• 7:44
  you know, I transform into this creature and I get there stat
• 7:47
  block. All right?
• 7:49
  Do you could basically give so much, like how the undead Druid
• 7:57
  a druid, warlock has to Temporary hit points when they
• 8:01
  do their form, you could give the Druid temporary hip points.
• 8:05
  And while they have those temporary hit points on their
• 8:09
  turn. As a bonus action, they can wild
• 8:12
  shape. It's a whatever creature, you
• 8:14
  know, as long as they have it. And then, you know, you can put
• 8:18
  an arbitrary limit on it like fucking a minute like most, you
• 8:24
  know, so rather than it being an ammo count like a time thing.
• 8:27
  Yeah. Just because then you give the
• 8:31
  player a little bit more flow and a little bit more control
• 8:36
  over it. Obviously, you'd still have to
• 8:37
  do something like, oh, you know, you're limited to these that box
• 8:41
  or you have to limit a little bit more in certain regards, but
• 8:45
  because you're, you're also allowing more freedom, it
• 8:47
  doesn't feel as whatever. Like I'm part of the reason why
• 8:52
  I don't really like, you know, playing Druid and D is because
• 8:58
  of that like, I like Like I really like Druids?
• 9:02
  Yes. I believe I have the same beef
• 9:04
  with Druid in five years. Love the fantasy of the Druid
• 9:09
  yet sort of Justice pointed out the mechanics limit you quite a
• 9:12
  bit. Yeah.
• 9:14
  Yeah, that was my big thing. So, another reason I started
• 9:19
  thinking about this idea is everyone take a shot, powered by
• 9:23
  the apocalypse games, I think do this really, really well, baby
• 9:28
  and dungeon world. I love the way the Druid works
• 9:31
  and dungeon world and I'll tease that because I'm going to, I'll
• 9:35
  explain it more later, but one of the reasons I got annoyed is
• 9:39
  because I play dungeon world and then I went to play 5e and I was
• 9:41
  annoyed that the 5e Druid was not as cool as how the dungeon
• 9:44
  world. It works.
• 9:46
  So you know. Yeah.
• 9:50
  You got it. Yeah it's there's something.
• 9:55
  There's another little point that I wanted to note and a get
• 9:59
  that again came up on the elders or cast.
• 10:01
  I was like oh yeah that's an itch.
• 10:05
  There is a thing because like you can make a lot of really
• 10:09
  crazy cinematic can expect, but you do have to account for the
• 10:15
  fact that in a movie, the camera can focus on one character for
• 10:19
  an extended period of time and you as the viewer are sort of
• 10:22
  along for the ride with that one character in a game.
• 10:26
  If you focus on one character for a long extended period of
• 10:29
  time, the other three to five players, you know, kind of
• 10:33
  sitting around doing nothing. Most Of the time.
• 10:35
  It's sort of the it's the it's the hacker problem in the
• 10:38
  cyberpunk game, right? The hacker, does their cool
• 10:41
  hacker thing. Everyone else is there with
• 10:42
  their dick in their hands. I do love that so mi you know, a
• 10:48
  movie doesn't have this consideration, the game does.
• 10:52
  So even when you are trying to make something have a really
• 10:56
  cool like fantasy, a really cool attic style to it, you do have
• 11:00
  to equate or equate. You do have to account for that
• 11:04
  problem and and consider it, you know, if you're hacking your
• 11:10
  game to try and do something cool and exciting.
• 11:14
  Let's say, oh, I'm gonna give the fighter this really cool
• 11:16
  ability. You have to keep in mind that
• 11:19
  like all right, cool. So you're giving one player, the
• 11:22
  cool thing. And if that takes up too much
• 11:24
  attention, everyone else might be potentially annoyed that they
• 11:28
  either a, they don't get to do the cool thing or when the fight
• 11:30
  or be when the Fighters doing their cool thing.
• 11:33
  Everyone else has to sit there and pay attention to the fighter
• 11:35
  because of how cool he is. That kind of shit is a big
• 11:40
  consideration. Any time you're doing some like
• 11:42
  hacking or mugging making your own goddamn tape, Okay?
• 11:48
  So We talked about dungeon world.
• 11:49
  All right, and I have to get the thought out before I lose it
• 11:52
  because I was thinking about this earlier, another way that
• 11:54
  you can do, cinematic feel is throwing away the current turns
• 11:58
  system. Yeah, like I don't dislike it or
• 12:05
  the way the DND functions currently.
• 12:08
  But there are often times where I'm like, wow, I really wish
• 12:13
  that I could do something out of turn.
• 12:15
  I could do something out of turn four, like we could swap up the
• 12:18
  orders and I kind of wish that the way the DND worked is that
• 12:23
  you wrote like everybody rolls for initiative but those become
• 12:26
  initiative slots. Rather.
• 12:29
  Yeah. Yeah rather than oh hey this is
• 12:33
  your initiative. This is when you go every turn
• 12:35
  because then we run into issues where Yes.
• 12:39
  So like I have, you know, for instance, you know, we're
• 12:43
  fighting a wizard and I was actually thinking about this
• 12:48
  will be played Sunday, you know, the wisdom the archmage has
• 12:53
  fucking counterspell. They anybody can burn that
• 12:56
  reaction for counterspell, but like if I'm the first person to
• 13:00
  go, he's going to counter my spell.
• 13:02
  No matter what you know if it's to go bother him or whatever.
• 13:05
  So I You know, now I'm stuck sitting here like, okay, my plan
• 13:10
  is, you know, fucking Garbodor because I can't do what I want
• 13:15
  because I have to be the person like if I do it.
• 13:19
  My spell is the one that's going to get countered.
• 13:22
  You know, it may freeze someone else up for it but like that
• 13:26
  doesn't help me in the long run, you know?
• 13:29
  R Us in the long run. Yeah.
• 13:32
  So what your Quaker kind of hitting on Is tied to the next.
• 13:40
  I have soon. Yeah.
• 13:41
  So you have to account for your like one player gets to be too
• 13:44
  cool for But that's, you know, it mitigate that.
• 13:49
  But yeah idea what you're talking about.
• 13:52
  Sam is thing. I noted down is up.
• 13:56
  The mechanics of your game should not stop you from the
• 14:01
  cool fantasy idea. You have in your head of your
• 14:04
  care, right? And so just the throw out, I
• 14:09
  wrote down a few examples, the mechanic, shouldn't if stop the
• 14:14
  fighter from being able to charge the dragons, fire breath
• 14:17
  with their Shield up and live. The game, some stop, the
• 14:20
  barbarian from being able to rage and take on four, Dudes.
• 14:24
  You know, one V4, with no effort to take it out of the realm of
• 14:27
  D&D, your cyberpunk game Netrunner should be able to hack
• 14:31
  and manipulate the area that the team is operating in to help
• 14:34
  them with the run, you know shouldn't get in the way of that
• 14:37
  because all those ideas from hitting that is like cool
• 14:41
  fantasy idea. All what's some really badass
• 14:43
  shit a fighter could do holds up their Shield you know dragon
• 14:47
  unleashes fire breath, they charged Their way through the
• 14:50
  fire breath. Dragon stops breathing and
• 14:51
  realizes all the sudden the fucking Fighters right under his
• 14:54
  neck and they stabbed him right? Like cool badass shit.
• 14:56
  A fighter could do. I just I'm sorry, I kind of have
• 15:01
  to be an asshole because he said let the Barbarian fight off for
• 15:04
  goons with no real issue and I've just thought of it.
• 15:06
  I ever have that. I mean, you so yeah, this is the
• 15:11
  thing. The Indie not even deity, this
• 15:15
  isn't even D. Indirect, if you're gonna do a
• 15:18
  sort of grid-based, turn-based, combat system.
• 15:23
  You are limiting a certain amount of that cinematic Vibe.
• 15:26
  It is, it is harder to do if you want to do a sort of tactical
• 15:31
  board game style combat game. It's just harder.
• 15:34
  It's just, there's obstacles in the way right?
• 15:37
  In D&D. Can the fighter charge into the
• 15:40
  dragon's breath with their Shield up?
• 15:42
  No, No, but like you could take the shield Master feet, and kind
• 15:46
  of a kind of a shield Master their rate, that's you can sort
• 15:49
  of narrate. That's that, that's what you're
• 15:50
  doing. As opposed to a game like
• 15:52
  dungeon World though, where you can literally say, alright,
• 15:55
  cool. So, the dragon breathes fire and
• 15:56
  the fighter player can go, I would like to charge directly
• 15:59
  into the fire with my shield up it which point the GM could say,
• 16:01
  okay, cool Romy, a defied danger with your Constitution.
• 16:04
  Let's see how if you can manage this and then you literally get
• 16:07
  to do it right? Like there's no.
• 16:09
  Well, that's all within the mechanical bounds.
• 16:11
  Yes, I well, I think I think the the easy mid-ground here is if
• 16:16
  you want to keep your grid based stuff, but you also want to be
• 16:20
  able to just go buck wild sometimes I don't think there's
• 16:24
  a better system out there than narrative declarations /.
• 16:27
  You know lights / light or dark side points.
• 16:30
  Fuck me to be able to just be like, I do this thing.
• 16:35
  Yeah, the the GM started as I got it.
• 16:38
  Well, that's kosher you burn. Your whatever-the-fuck point.
• 16:40
  Now, you did it. Yes, you can do.
• 16:43
  Do there is some of that there. However, that's essentially what
• 16:48
  you're doing. There is ignoring, you're
• 16:51
  basically saying I would like to turn off the grid based battle
• 16:54
  map for a moment and just do whatever the fuck I want.
• 16:56
  And then we'll turn it back on after my turn is done, right?
• 16:58
  So like it's sort of reinforces my point that like, with the
• 17:02
  grid based battle that it is harder to do, not impossible,
• 17:05
  but definitely harder. And yes, that is, that is sort
• 17:08
  of a middle ground to say, like, every once in a while, we're
• 17:11
  just gonna ignore it, which is totally valid.
• 17:13
  And honestly, when a lot of people are playing D&D and they
• 17:17
  want to do a crazy cinematic thing, that's why you don't go
• 17:20
  to the grid map, you make a bunch of like, you know, you
• 17:24
  make a bunch of skill checks, or you make some tool proficiency
• 17:27
  checks, or your narrate, something about how you use a
• 17:29
  spell to do. X, Y, and Z skill to.
• 17:31
  This is why I love skill challenges so much because they
• 17:33
  are literally this, they are cinematic game design.
• 17:37
  Explain how you do the cool thing.
• 17:39
  Roll the fucking dice you succeed.
• 17:40
  That's dope or you fail unfortunate, you know?
• 17:43
  Yeah, right? Like if you if you wanted to do
• 17:48
  the Druid, let's say you're playing 5e and you wanted to do
• 17:51
  the scene with Doric from the movie.
• 17:54
  You gay. Okay?
• 17:55
  As the GM you could say, all right?
• 17:58
  Doris player. Just ignore the rules of while
• 18:02
  shape. Do whatever the fuck you want
• 18:04
  for this scene. We're going to do a skill
• 18:06
  challenge. Roll, you have infinite wild
• 18:08
  shapes, go Buckwild. Tell me how you do it and we'll
• 18:11
  make rolls back and forth and see what you cut what you do,
• 18:13
  right? That would be how you could do
• 18:15
  something like that in 5e. But what you're doing is
• 18:18
  actively telling the game to fuck off in some regard.
• 18:20
  Right? So what I'm sort of what I'm
• 18:25
  suggesting is if you want to hack stuff like this, think
• 18:28
  about how you can make. Kanak that will back up the
• 18:33
  narrative. It's I feel, I've said this
• 18:35
  multiple times, but like mechanics, my favorite.
• 18:38
  This is literally my favorite topic, by the way, and tabletop.
• 18:41
  This is like by shit mechanics that reinforce that fantasy that
• 18:45
  cinematic Vibe. This is like my ultimate shit.
• 18:47
  This is why I love powered by the apocalypse so much because I
• 18:50
  feel like it gives me the most potential to do this.
• 18:54
  It's not the only system. It's just you know what?
• 18:56
  I like the most sort of Hit me the hardest earliest on.
• 19:01
  Yeah. Um and then the last point I
• 19:05
  wanted to make about this. or I can have some examples because I
• 19:09
  did bring some Balance. Need not apply the fuck out of
• 19:15
  here with this balance shit. Not literally, but a little bit.
• 19:19
  Um, I think invoking the fantasy of your type of game you're
• 19:25
  making, or in the or let's say, you're hacking, right, invoking.
• 19:29
  The fantasy takes priority over any kind of idea of balance,
• 19:34
  right? Make the cool mechanic worry
• 19:37
  about the balance later, and if the balance is going to shit on
• 19:41
  the cool mechanic, then prioritize the, The Cinematic
• 19:46
  design over over the balance. That's what I say now obviously
• 19:53
  can't go. I'm not saying I'm not saying
• 19:57
  let your palate in just one shot everything with Divine Smite or
• 20:00
  some shit. Like obviously, obviously
• 20:03
  there's a limit to how like crazy you can get, but if you're
• 20:07
  sitting at a Crossroads and it's like, all right, either I can
• 20:11
  make the game either. I can make this cool or I can
• 20:13
  balance it out. It's going to be way less cool.
• 20:15
  Prioritize. The Cinematic cool design?
• 20:19
  I'm sure there were people that would disagree with me, I do not
• 20:21
  care. That is what I prioritize that
• 20:24
  over all things because I think in the end just get something
• 20:28
  more. Satisfying, you know?
• 20:30
  And the main reason I say that is like tabletop games are not
• 20:34
  competitive. You don't need to think about
• 20:37
  them in that way. You know, that's the thing.
• 20:40
  Now, where balance does become relevant and the time I do worry
• 20:43
  about balance, is anytime you have a character ability or
• 20:49
  something that shit's on somebody else's thing, right?
• 20:55
  Basically, a meme in the D&D Community how if you want to
• 20:58
  play a cool Ranger play, literally anything but Ranger at
• 21:02
  this point because so many other subclass Shields are there that
• 21:06
  aren't Ranger? That will give you the ranger
• 21:08
  Vibe better? Yeah, right.
• 21:11
  And the reason that's a meme is because those abilities are
• 21:14
  shitting on the Ranger. Right.
• 21:16
  Like that's why that makes this. It's like oh I want to play a
• 21:20
  cool character with a pet and like a sick, long-range weapon.
• 21:23
  Oh, play a battle Smith artificer.
• 21:26
  What should I play a ranger not battle Smith.
• 21:28
  Does it better just re flavor your Robo, dog.
• 21:30
  Is something else or some shit? I don't know.
• 21:32
  No, no. Yeah, right.
• 21:35
  You know, that's where ballot. That's where balance becomes?
• 21:38
  Like a big deal. I, I wouldn't even say that's,
• 21:41
  that's Balon was not balanced. It's kind of a dick.
• 21:43
  Yeah, that's that's just kind of game design in.
• 21:46
  Generally these protectable. Yeah.
• 21:49
  Called the reason you just don't want people to have too much in
• 21:53
  the seat. Like he's, you can have similar
• 21:55
  classes like having a battle Smith artificer, I have a gun,
• 21:59
  you know, and Ranger. I have a bow or crossbow or
• 22:03
  whatever like that's, that's fine, like having that overlap
• 22:07
  is fine, but like once it becomes, you know, there's no
• 22:12
  way to differentiate between, you know, Beastmaster.
• 22:16
  And fucking battle Smith. It's just like so why would I
• 22:19
  play the worst one? Yeah, well the reason I think
• 22:23
  that it I would consider kind of stuff under the umbrella balance
• 22:28
  is because it sometimes, the reason you end up sitting on
• 22:34
  another class is because numerically, your class just
• 22:38
  does the thing better, right? Like yeah, Paladin look on some
• 22:42
  regards shits on fighter because they could kind of do the
• 22:45
  fighter think better, you know, Mary.
• 22:47
  We have just more utility in a lot of regards, like
• 22:51
  numerically. Speaking, that that's kind of
• 22:53
  why I think it falls under the balance, but it is.
• 22:55
  This is why fighter should just have all of the battle Mass shit
• 22:57
  and Battle Master should just not be a subclass, just saying
• 23:01
  Or Jamaica Battle Master Ur again, channel that is
• 23:05
  throughout our Master make Battle Master, just better at
• 23:09
  using Maneuvers and Maneuvers just available to everyone.
• 23:13
  I I'm not going to get back on the fighter.
• 23:16
  Hate upsets me so much. So like so this is a common
• 23:22
  problem in like she robbed a shooters or MMO's.
• 23:28
  It's just you will have characters that get or just
• 23:32
  straight-up better than others at the same job.
• 23:36
  Like the same gig like, for instance, look at any of the
• 23:41
  range DPS in Final Fantasy, 14, like, Going to go.
• 23:45
  Okay? So which one am I playing?
• 23:47
  And they're going to tell you you're playing Bard.
• 23:49
  If you want to be the most effective because machinist
• 23:53
  damage is tied to some stupid. Shit and Dancer is just killing
• 23:59
  Sam. Don't go too, deep down the 14th
• 24:00
  hole. I know if you want to play Hero
• 24:03
  just don't play Astro. You know, you say that but as
• 24:08
  true is one of the most popular Heroes can't wait for them to
• 24:13
  change it again. And then just not be popular.
• 24:15
  Anyway, my point is that like it's obviously just an example
• 24:18
  but like this, it's a subset of balance.
• 24:21
  Yeah. It's it's like balance comes
• 24:24
  into play when you're doing this because once these things have
• 24:29
  the same identity, you really want to have them be good at
• 24:33
  different things. When When you have something
• 24:36
  that's just better and every single regard than something
• 24:40
  else, or the thing that's good is too Niche and everybody's
• 24:45
  just going to play the thing. That's good at everything
• 24:47
  because I will especially the tabletop game.
• 24:50
  Your DM has to constantly address.
• 24:52
  It can eat like, take into account that specific thing.
• 24:56
  I will say that there is There is this kind of gray area Middle
• 25:01
  Ground where nothing can be better on paper than, but
• 25:07
  there's still enough going on between the two that you still
• 25:10
  might have fun with one of the other.
• 25:12
  So like an example, I'm thinking of here, a lot of people have
• 25:16
  pointed out in Dungeon world that the palette is same
• 25:20
  comparison. Again, the Paladin is just
• 25:22
  better than the fighter and underworld.
• 25:23
  A lot of people have mentioned that and to some regard.
• 25:26
  That is true and like new Numerically.
• 25:29
  You're like yeah I kind of checks out but the fighter gets
• 25:34
  a couple of really cool. Sinope cinematic abilities or
• 25:39
  Moves In the case of dungeon world that make them feel
• 25:42
  different and cool enough. That even though the paladins a
• 25:45
  little bit better, you still kind of want to play The Fighter
• 25:48
  because they still have some of their own cool shit.
• 25:50
  You know that comes into like there's that there's a delicate
• 25:56
  Middle Ground flavor. Yeah.
• 25:57
  Just really what it is. Like a lot of people going back
• 26:00
  to 14 because this just just an easy one.
• 26:05
  Like a lot of people will play machinist because machine is
• 26:08
  just cool. Yeah, it seems the only reason
• 26:10
  she just cool you mash. Lots of buttons and you hit my
• 26:14
  little things. That's it.
• 26:16
  That's why you would play a machinist over the other ranged
• 26:19
  DPS, and it's just like, I understand.
• 26:24
  Like if you have that flavor, which can be Harder to even come
• 26:30
  across in tabletop where like especially Dean D where it's
• 26:34
  like I hit this thing. Okay cool.
• 26:39
  Yeah, so okay. Okay, well, so say I'm now you
• 26:42
  say that. All right, I want to cut.
• 26:43
  This is good. This is good segue.
• 26:44
  This is good. So quick.
• 26:45
  Mmm, as I wrote down a couple of cinematic examples and I didn't
• 26:48
  want to just do the shit on D&D parade.
• 26:49
  Like I usually did those like, all right, what are a couple of
• 26:52
  cool? Little moments in D&D that do
• 26:54
  actually feel like good cinematic game design?
• 26:56
  There are some one of them. I said, is the paladins Divine
• 26:59
  Smite, correct for a couple of reasons.
• 27:03
  Right. First first and foremost,
• 27:05
  obviously, you know, and actually I should say real quick
• 27:10
  when we're talking about sort of feeding into the fantasy of a
• 27:13
  specific Euler class or character type.
• 27:16
  We're generally talking about the most generic stereotypical
• 27:19
  version of that thing, right? So yes there are lots of
• 27:24
  different kinds of paladins you could potentially make but we're
• 27:26
  talking about when you say the word palette and what is the
• 27:28
  most stereotypical thing that comes to mind, right?
• 27:32
  So part of that. That in this particular case you
• 27:34
  think of the Paladin? You think of all yet?
• 27:36
  They got the big fuckin longsword.
• 27:37
  It glows with holy energy and they give the fucking Bazinga
• 27:40
  Smackdown to some demons or someone dead or something.
• 27:42
  Go. Yeah.
• 27:44
  The guy in the page of Palace and play.
• 27:47
  Yeah, fuck yeah. That dude that dude.
• 27:49
  Yeah. That like wanted that guy that
• 27:50
  orders. Okay, he do.
• 27:53
  The reasons is mine, Smite is really cool.
• 27:55
  Is because first and foremost, obviously, it lets you do the
• 27:59
  big Bazinga Smackdown damage, right row.
• 28:01
  Lots of dice do big number. Good.
• 28:03
  However, if the device might was just that on its own, it
• 28:08
  wouldn't be really that evocative because, you know, if
• 28:11
  all it was was more damage, you could just call the attack
• 28:15
  because swinger and then it does the same thing, right?
• 28:18
  Let me hit him with the big spoon.
• 28:19
  Yeah, you could just come on. Yeah, you could go pal.
• 28:22
  This Divine swipe big swoop and it does the same damage and then
• 28:25
  it's not really a school anymore though.
• 28:28
  But the other two parts that of divine spite, that I really
• 28:32
  like, are Really what reinforce the magical?
• 28:36
  Holy like smiting part, which is a Divine smites you spell slots?
• 28:42
  So that's reinforcing in a mechanical sense.
• 28:45
  You are telling me mechanically this thing that fuels magic
• 28:49
  fuels, Midas find Smite Ergo the fantasy reinforcement.
• 28:52
  There is divine spiders. Magical on top of that.
• 28:56
  You do extra damage to feeds an undead.
• 28:59
  Why? Holy Warrior hit the undead and
• 29:02
  bid the demon? It's harder because that's their
• 29:04
  thing that's cool cinematic design.
• 29:07
  That's and that's what it. Honestly, the fiend an undead
• 29:10
  part is my favorite part about Divine Smite by far, I so I
• 29:17
  build on this this kind of wire Ranger, it feels like absolute
• 29:21
  garbage eater. Yes, because while Ranger they
• 29:23
  were table again. Favorite enemy.
• 29:25
  You're good at, you're good at hitting thing, but only one
• 29:29
  thing unlike Paladin where it's everything.
• 29:33
  Well, also favored, a me, doesn't actually make you better
• 29:36
  at fighting them in any way. Yeah, that's who makes you
• 29:38
  better like tracking and knowing about them, but I actually
• 29:40
  fighting them. Yeah, or hunting them, you know,
• 29:43
  do The Rangers think where you hunt?
• 29:46
  Yeah, no, no hunt. But my point being it like, you
• 29:51
  know, you look at this and you go, oh, so why don't I do better
• 29:56
  in combat against them? Even though it's the thing that
• 29:58
  I'm supposed to be good at fighting and then was just kind
• 30:01
  of looks at you and shrugs and you know why, you know what?
• 30:03
  And I guarantee you what the reason why they did it want to
• 30:06
  give Ranger like big dick damage against their favorite enemy or
• 30:10
  whatever. Because a balance And in that
• 30:13
  scenario, I say, throw the balance out.
• 30:16
  That's a scenario like this regard Josh's.
• 30:18
  Like they did a little bit were talking.
• 30:20
  Yes, yeah, Todd. Like, some was damning for
• 30:22
  someone that's playing a swarm keeper Ranger.
• 30:26
  He's good. Here's the problem.
• 30:28
  I will just say, like, it's warm, keep Rangers beginning,
• 30:30
  the extra spells lie, utility spells doing the not fucking
• 30:35
  powers and levels of damage. But outpacing other people in
• 30:39
  the party that you think would be doing way more damage than
• 30:41
  they are so tight. Like, the Tosh has helped
• 30:44
  significantly but all that did was help their playability man.
• 30:49
  Here's the problem, favored foe is nice for making Ranger more
• 30:53
  numerically effective. Favorite photo is a garbage
• 30:57
  cinematic design because it doesn't reinforce the ranger at
• 31:00
  all. It just takes it from.
• 31:02
  Oh, the Rangers only good at fighting a niche group of people
• 31:05
  to Rangers is better at fighting everyone.
• 31:07
  Fuck it. It's it doesn't, it doesn't
• 31:10
  invoke the fantasy in any way nothing about About favored fo
• 31:14
  because favorite photo you're just marking its just Hunter's.
• 31:16
  Mark, you're just marking your target.
• 31:17
  It doesn't really reinforce the vibe in any cool way, whereas
• 31:20
  favoring, but that favorite enemy was trying to.
• 31:24
  Yeah, I feel like they ran was trying to but I mean with
• 31:26
  Hunter's Mark that could also be something either.
• 31:28
  As you were not Hunter's, Mark sorry.
• 31:30
  Favorite feel? That could be something as you
• 31:32
  as the player or use the DM you know you do the anime thing were
• 31:36
  you specifically Target in that guy?
• 31:38
  You're like very fo yeah. But that's not really about the
• 31:41
  fantasy of Ranger. Because part of the fantasy of
• 31:44
  the Rangers, they're better at dealing with a specific kind of
• 31:47
  thing, right? And that's not really do it.
• 31:50
  So if I were to make favorite Pho, have more of like actual
• 31:53
  good cinematic design and like reinforce that fantasy, I would
• 31:59
  combine favored fo and favor an enemy.
• 32:02
  You pick what your favorite enemy is?
• 32:05
  So let's say, you know, monstrosity he's when you're
• 32:10
  fighting monstrosity is you can Cook them for an extra D for
• 32:14
  damage or an extra D6 damage, you know, like I would probably
• 32:17
  make it morning, make it feel better now, we're kind of
• 32:20
  reinforcing the vibe because it's like, oh, I'm particularly
• 32:23
  better at killing these fuckers as opposed to just anybody.
• 32:27
  And, I mean, Shit. There was another point that,
• 32:34
  ah, whatever. So, yes, favorite photo is good
• 32:38
  in the sense that it made the ranger more usable, but it
• 32:41
  didn't really help with their the fantasy of the class, for
• 32:45
  me. I mean, and there is a little
• 32:46
  bit of a flavor text in it where it's like, oh, you sort of focus
• 32:51
  in on a particular Target, kind of like you're saying, Matt and,
• 32:54
  and there's there's something there like that's that's okay,
• 32:58
  but it's not. It's not quite the like you know
• 33:01
  it's not quite the moment, was it.
• 33:02
  When are going like sniffs the fucking dirt or something is
• 33:04
  like there's Orcs here, right? This is some like that.
• 33:07
  But do you do? What is your to the ground?
• 33:09
  They're like, yeah, something like that.
• 33:10
  He's like tracking. But yeah, like that.
• 33:13
  It's not quite in that realm. I don't think that they should
• 33:19
  just have both in general. Like, I mean, more damage to
• 33:24
  everything, but then even more damage and more damage that,
• 33:27
  yes. Yes, basically.
• 33:29
  Just have Smite, but like Smite. Yes, / just do divides, right?
• 33:34
  You did it already pick. You get to pick the Smite.
• 33:37
  Yeah, literally. You do. 1 D6 to this, but you do
• 33:41
  to D6 to this literally. Yes, well, I think according to
• 33:44
  the 1D play test that we read a while ago, I think, are they
• 33:47
  just going to get colossal Slayer?
• 33:50
  Just do one game are specifically with the with the
• 33:54
  hunter. Yes.
• 33:55
  But that one okay, Colossus layer is like even more vague
• 33:58
  because you just do more damage to someone who's hurt which is
• 34:00
  like, huh. I that doesn't invoke anything
• 34:04
  beef with that. I think about it off the, we're
• 34:05
  not dead. Yeah, we're not we're not going
• 34:07
  down that rabbit hole also side note.
• 34:09
  Have we done a Ranger episode yet?
• 34:10
  I don't think we have. Yes, we did.
• 34:12
  We did. Yeah, no I thought we talked
• 34:15
  about the 1dd ranger but you're right, we talked about the one
• 34:18
  ddh but not that Like I'm like I did I step into the wrong
• 34:22
  episode are we know we've got this off anyway.
• 34:30
  A little splash of what Ranger will be your bitch.
• 34:33
  Look it's basically so yes, Divine Smite, super like
• 34:39
  cinematic. Evocative if I'm going to stale
• 34:42
  if I'm going to once again steel the steel, the phrase from Dale
• 34:45
  Kings male vague and evocative all that hits.
• 34:49
  The notes for me. Me another good example in 5e
• 34:53
  clerics divine. Intervention is fucking god.
• 34:57
  Tier design. Biggest, brainís, because the
• 35:03
  most most like perfect cinematic moment.
• 35:07
  The thing you think of, when you think of the really badass Clara
• 35:10
  character is homeboy looks up at the sky and says a.
• 35:14
  Yo, God slap me a crisp high five and then he does and he
• 35:17
  pulls out a fucking lightsaber, some bullshit.
• 35:20
  God just gave him like divine. Intervention is amazing and I
• 35:25
  did God just give that man a clicky.
• 35:27
  Yes he says I oh God slap me some skin.
• 35:30
  And then he hands him in a cage and he goes, hey, yo, he's on
• 35:35
  death's. Gotta suck my nuts.
• 35:37
  Like, you know, like that is the fantasy of the cleric, right?
• 35:40
  Like, ask your God for help. Crazy.
• 35:42
  God shit happens, you know? That's the fucking Summoner in,
• 35:46
  like, in fucking Final Fantasy, right?
• 35:48
  Like, hey, yo, Yo smoke this bitch.
• 35:51
  Like that's why also, that's why I love to see it in critical
• 35:55
  role. In Pike gets the fucking divine
• 35:56
  intervention off, because Matt Mercer just goes.
• 35:59
  All right, well, your God just smites the shit out of that
• 36:01
  Dragon fucking lit. I I mean I've raved about we did
• 36:06
  do a cleric episode and I know I talked about divided prevention.
• 36:09
  So we've already got down that road.
• 36:12
  There's little tweaks, I would make to invited to divine
• 36:14
  intervention but otherwise fucking love it, absolutely
• 36:17
  love. I think we're all on the same
• 36:22
  page on that, right? Like yeah.
• 36:24
  Yeah. It would that with my personal
• 36:26
  caveat of the caveat that the first one go off at the first
• 36:29
  won't be dramatically. Yeah.
• 36:31
  I do. I have what I want.
• 36:32
  We're going to bring it up some chain of wait.
• 36:33
  I only have three from DD so probably not.
• 36:35
  Okay. All right.
• 36:37
  The last one I'm going to mention from D and D.
• 36:39
  Is this one's a little more low-key and maybe that's
• 36:42
  something people would expect as much the bards song of rest.
• 36:46
  I really like that song of rest is really basic, right?
• 36:50
  All it does is you get a little bit more healing on a short
• 36:54
  rest. But the reason I really like it
• 36:56
  is because it, the fantasy part of the fantasy of The Bard is
• 37:01
  you sort of, you know, make everyone feel better in a little
• 37:05
  pat on the back. Maybe you make everyone drinks,
• 37:08
  you play a nice be, you know, so you heal a little bit more and
• 37:11
  like it's a real small one and it does the thing about like the
• 37:14
  idea of cinematic game design. It doesn't Need to be a crazy
• 37:18
  effective or powerful mechanic like Divine Smite.
• 37:22
  It can be something small but if it evokes that fantasy of what
• 37:25
  you think of, when you think of the class or the play play
• 37:28
  Booker, you know, the role or whatever, you know, if it
• 37:32
  invokes that Vibe, then it's doing his job, like, that's all
• 37:36
  I need. I don't need it to be super
• 37:38
  effective. That's kind of why.
• 37:39
  I like, I don't really give a shit about, like, how effective
• 37:42
  like statistically is song of rest, good.
• 37:45
  I don't know or care. Probably not mathematically, but
• 37:48
  who the fuck cares? I mean, it while it's free
• 37:49
  actually, so I guess I dozed in this case, it has to be, it's
• 37:53
  free. So, it's automatically but like,
• 37:55
  you know, maybe it should scale, maybe she did.
• 37:58
  I don't give a shit. The point is cool.
• 37:59
  And evocative, you know, and and shit even counter charm, even
• 38:06
  though it sucks balls. I love the idea of counter
• 38:09
  charm. I love the premise of counter
• 38:11
  charm, like, Yeah, The Bard is so good at being the like star
• 38:15
  of the show. Oh that they could like break
• 38:17
  everyone out of the charm from the succubus and make everyone
• 38:20
  look at the bar because God damn.
• 38:21
  He's so cool or he's so hot or he's such an idiot.
• 38:24
  You know. Like you can get the attention
• 38:27
  away and unfortunately counter charm is so specific you never
• 38:31
  get to use it but God I love the idea is that you know Tunisian
• 38:37
  Ashley useful. Yeah, yeah.
• 38:40
  So I wanted to be on the opposite end.
• 38:45
  Something that I really dislike in games.
• 38:48
  Andy specifically dad doesn't do this for a while is the way that
• 38:52
  spell-casting fuels restrictive in a lot of ways.
• 38:58
  Yeah, because it like, I okay, being a rule stirred, I do
• 39:04
  appreciate when specifics are laid out.
• 39:07
  However, If things are too specific, you get to the point
• 39:13
  where you're just like, okay. So like the spell is garbage.
• 39:17
  Sam. That's it.
• 39:18
  It's the thing that you want is an ability to just we magical
• 39:22
  bullshit. Yeah, yeah.
• 39:25
  Okay. So I wasn't going to mention
• 39:26
  this necessarily but since you're bringing this up, I feel
• 39:29
  like mmm. Everyone take another shot.
• 39:32
  Here comes the dungeon World talk.
• 39:34
  Don't world where this is going. The wizard class has a ability
• 39:38
  called ritual. What this lets you do is this is
• 39:43
  the kind of scale. I like to call we've magical
• 39:45
  bullshit. When you draw on a place of
• 39:48
  power to create a magical effect, tell the GM what you're
• 39:52
  trying to achieve ritual effects are always possible, but the GM
• 39:55
  will give you one to four of the following conditions and then
• 39:58
  there's there's a list of conditions.
• 40:00
  I fucking love that because you're like I don't have a
• 40:03
  specific spell for this scenario.
• 40:05
  Well what if I have a little chitchat with the GM and do a
• 40:08
  little too little weave magical bullshit and make something
• 40:10
  work. I Fucking love that and yes, I
• 40:13
  deeply wish 5. He had something like that.
• 40:15
  And I know why it doesn't, but goddamn?
• 40:18
  Yeah, it's just frustrating. When you're like wow, I'm
• 40:22
  supposed to be this like literally divine intervention
• 40:26
  does this does this? Yeah, because it's yes.
• 40:28
  And then just wizard doesn't have anything that imagine.
• 40:30
  Yes. Imagine if wizard had a thing
• 40:32
  where it was like those are her as wish, but if you do have
• 40:36
  quite late this is like not so same way.
• 40:39
  It should be like Something small.
• 40:43
  Let your wizard can just fucking do.
• 40:45
  Because, why am I the smart? Fucking yes.
• 40:49
  Less smart part. That's the big picture called,
• 40:51
  press the human figure out how no Matt.
• 40:54
  No, but it is so poorly executed.
• 41:08
  If there was a version of prestidigitation that was
• 41:11
  higher, That could do that. It was wider and it's not a
• 41:14
  problem. The problem with that Josh, is
• 41:16
  that there are multiple spells and that the wizard is, the
• 41:19
  class that get I understand spells in the game.
• 41:21
  So, it's one of those things where, like there was just like,
• 41:24
  all right, dimona cast these three spell specifically, and
• 41:27
  now, I'm summoning the moon to us.
• 41:29
  Yes. I understand that.
• 41:30
  Here's the thing. But here's the problem.
• 41:31
  All right. Yes.
• 41:33
  The moon. I don't know.
• 41:35
  Okay, hold on because we just hit like three different boxes.
• 41:37
  I've seen a video we just we just hit like three.
• 41:39
  Okay? First of all, wish, let's start
• 41:41
  with wish yes. We should cool and wishes in the
• 41:45
  right direction, but a like Sam mentioned, wish does have some
• 41:48
  weird stipulations that can fuck you, and B, which is super late
• 41:53
  games, you don't really get to use it very much.
• 41:56
  Both of those are tissue other things.
• 41:58
  So what Mass talking about with like prestidigitation and all
• 42:00
  the wizard gets all the Spells. Yes.
• 42:02
  But the Way spells are written instruction in 5e They're very
• 42:06
  mechanical war game style rules on spells with some few
• 42:11
  exceptions. And a lot of those spells that
• 42:14
  have exceptions are the spells that piss people off.
• 42:17
  IE fabricate. Right.
• 42:21
  Okay, hell yeah. What I'm suggesting If you're
• 42:28
  going to have your Spell's be in that fashion, give the wizard, a
• 42:31
  divine intervention style ability.
• 42:33
  And, you know, you and, you know, you'll call it like moment
• 42:37
  of inspiration or know that probably wouldn't work.
• 42:39
  I don't know. Like basically have an ability
• 42:43
  where the wizard works out. Like, well, if I connect the Ley
• 42:46
  lines here and use these components and mix them with
• 42:48
  this fluid and they get to do their like big brain, bonus
• 42:51
  effect to do aspis. Yeah, like GM, can I do X and Y
• 42:55
  thing to do this random. Urkel effect, and then you
• 42:59
  handle it. The way dungeon World handles.
• 43:00
  It were the GM, says, yes, here's your stipulations.
• 43:04
  You could do it for X. It's going to take you an hour.
• 43:07
  It's gonna take you. These ingredients, it's going to
• 43:10
  cost you this much money. You can do it, but you're going
• 43:13
  to get a weaker version. Then, you're hoping for because
• 43:15
  of the you don't have the right materials, right?
• 43:17
  Shit like that. Well, or are they not?
• 43:21
  What was that? Was the down casting thing.
• 43:22
  Just a rumor or well, that was only for one ability.
• 43:26
  It's not a rumor. Was only on one ability.
• 43:29
  Right. Thank you for letting down
• 43:30
  casting is still not what I'm talking about.
• 43:32
  I want I want the wizard to be able to do that.
• 43:36
  We're literally to divine intervention, right?
• 43:37
  I want the wizard to be able to say whatever effect I have in
• 43:40
  mind I want to happen and then you have a little back and forth
• 43:43
  with GM and I'm fine if there's a die roll to like the wizard
• 43:46
  tries to roll it in fails. That's fine.
• 43:48
  Totally cool with that too. Yeah.
• 43:51
  But yeah like I want that because Like Sam said, the
• 43:54
  wizard is so fucking smart. I got artificer.
• 43:57
  Probably should have this to actually.
• 43:59
  Now that I'm talking about, I think this would make sense for
• 44:01
  artificer. I think only was an artifice
• 44:03
  that I don't think anyone else should get this right.
• 44:05
  Well, that was some literally because, you know, Sorcerers
• 44:07
  just like, hey, I got a magic fish.
• 44:09
  You know what I'm doing? Wizard artifice of their whole
• 44:12
  stick is I'm so smart. I know what's going on.
• 44:15
  I could problem-solve what I'm saying that no, I was gonna say
• 44:18
  it because I get I agree, the wizard should have something
• 44:21
  like this, but the only mildly Thing that I don't think it's
• 44:24
  going to happen is because, no, it's not gonna have the Spells.
• 44:27
  It's all the mechanical thing. Yeah, I get it mechanical, but
• 44:30
  no matter who I'm talking about a version of 5e.
• 44:32
  I'm never gonna get, I want five you to do this.
• 44:34
  I want ddd-do say never will. Yeah, I'm just, I'm just saying,
• 44:37
  I don't think it's, I don't think it's gonna happen.
• 44:40
  I know it's I haven't because because it really smells like
• 44:44
  what was it? That was the one thing critical
• 44:45
  role. Here's the thing that Matt put
• 44:47
  it a bunch of spell Scrolls of high powerful wizard and then
• 44:52
  Caleb's character was able to put together Oh, this guy's
• 44:54
  making a phylactery. If he did these three spouse
• 44:57
  specifically you can create like a pseudo phylactery and avoid
• 45:00
  little, oh, oh shit, this guy's real big brain and then just
• 45:04
  Pockets the three fucking spells.
• 45:06
  Yeah. Like a wizard, like, I mean,
• 45:08
  yeah. And that's a cool.
• 45:09
  That's a cool. Good source of really the worst
• 45:11
  fucking Luke goblins, aren't they?
• 45:12
  Yeah. Hi.
• 45:14
  That's a cool. Good idea for a scene.
• 45:15
  The, the problem there is that required.
• 45:18
  Matt to have pretty deep knowledge of the game, to know
• 45:21
  what 3 spells would work. Do they all cooperate?
• 45:23
  Operate is my player going to put two and two together, right?
• 45:26
  Like there's a lot going on there and I know none of this is
• 45:29
  going to happen in D and D because D and D is not a
• 45:32
  cinematic priority game. They don't prioritize that.
• 45:36
  That's just not how they designed the game.
• 45:38
  So I know it's like that but I would like it's weird because
• 45:41
  it's not designed that way but they talk about it that way our
• 45:44
  yeah. They joke about the game being
• 45:46
  nice white way. Most people try to run the game
• 45:49
  that way especially with again the critical role.
• 45:50
  Boom. Uh-huh.
• 45:51
  Yeah, help sorry. Thinking problem that we're
• 45:53
  having With that specifically. And I think I've mentioned this
• 45:56
  many fucking times is that we people when they talk about
• 46:00
  Dean, Dr. Used to hearing stories.
• 46:02
  I'd always heard about Indian stories about it specifically,
• 46:06
  Third Edition, we're shit. Whistle little bit Wilder like
• 46:10
  better. I mean there was less balanced
• 46:12
  and there was just more shit. Yeah, there's some of that going
• 46:15
  on to, although Third Edition Third Edition, sort of lucked
• 46:18
  into that scenario because they were still, really mechanically
• 46:20
  mathematically focused to they were.
• 46:23
  Yeah, I would Say, even more cells, actually, yeah, but the
• 46:26
  thing is that they didn't care about balance as much because
• 46:29
  they just kind of shit out products like a fucking machine
• 46:32
  gun like now what? The raw book, every three
• 46:35
  months, something like that. Yeah, that's ridiculous.
• 46:39
  It's we have three different players.
• 46:41
  Handbooks dungeon Master's guide that not some animals.
• 46:44
  Like, literally what literally people want to do the Doric
• 46:48
  honor among Thieves singing. They want to do that.
• 46:51
  And the game just says no. Like, that's the problem with
• 46:55
  Ivy. People have the idea that the
• 46:57
  movie is what people think, five years.
• 46:59
  That's what it should be in people's rights, but the game
• 47:02
  fights you. Yeah, because most of the time,
• 47:04
  it's like, I'm a suit. Like we've all played in a
• 47:06
  campaign with a druid or someone who's transformed into an animal
• 47:10
  to like sneak in somewhere and spy on someone it can't pay no
• 47:13
  but I have watched no. Okay, probably surprisingly me
• 47:16
  and nine times out of ten it's always been like all right I'm
• 47:20
  gonna be a spider or I'm just going to be a rat or I'm going
• 47:23
  to be Oh, oh, oh, the the merchant who works for the guy.
• 47:27
  I'm trying to spy on. Yeah.
• 47:28
  He has a pet donkey for some reason.
• 47:30
  I'll just be the new donkey. It's like, why would you do
• 47:32
  that? And then you break in and then
• 47:34
  one roll blows their cover and then they go.
• 47:36
  Oh no. I'm fucked.
• 47:38
  And they can't do it. Yep.
• 47:40
  Yep, 100%. Yeah, and it kills the whole
• 47:42
  nine percent of the time so it's like huh.
• 47:46
  Yeah I again yeah. I understand the end.
• 47:49
  He's not going to do this. I'm just I'm just acting.
• 47:53
  Well, your wish. His deeds, he could be yes.
• 47:56
  So I would like to use some. So to use a couple o Isaiah, you
• 48:01
  said you had one that you had an example that I did.
• 48:03
  I don't few actually, hey, I mean, you want to Rapid Fire it
• 48:06
  off. I mean, first one is quivering
• 48:08
  Palm because that's just the coolest shit.
• 48:11
  A good one. Yes.
• 48:12
  Is that like the definition of the like you're already dead
• 48:15
  thing? I think it's super cinematic.
• 48:17
  And yes, you could hit somebody. And then a week goes by, you're
• 48:21
  like, oh that's right. Snaps finger explosion in the
• 48:24
  background. Like, yeah, that's true.
• 48:27
  I think when I My favorites is steel when to strike the like,
• 48:30
  literally teleports behind you. Nothing personal kid, but does
• 48:33
  it five times. So still on strike I would say
• 48:36
  it's not it's a good one but because of the Way spells are in
• 48:40
  5e it still feels a little cold and clinical but it is I would
• 48:47
  say still would strike sort of teachers that line between the
• 48:49
  two which is actually I mean in and probably in a good way I
• 48:52
  would say oh yeah. I'm trying to, I mean, a lot of
• 48:57
  them are spells. Like, what is it?
• 48:59
  Like, a son beat her? What is it?
• 49:01
  It's not Sunbeam. The one which them torrent of
• 49:03
  like a fucking column of fire shoots up underneath.
• 49:05
  Somebody Firestar. I think I think it's flamestrike
• 49:09
  or you just like all right yeah, Bazinga explode.
• 49:14
  I'm sorry. A lot of the thing is, is like a
• 49:17
  lot of the Spells are sort of, a lot of the Spells, are there, to
• 49:21
  reinforce the fantasy of being a fucking wizard, you know, or
• 49:24
  being a glare. A lot of them are there to
• 49:27
  reinforce back to the class. I recognize that there are
• 49:29
  technicality, but they do still count like just to some of them,
• 49:33
  have some really cool cinematic ideas to them anything, but
• 49:36
  here's the okay. So here's the this isn't because
• 49:39
  it's really cool, like, all right, it's cool.
• 49:41
  Because it's specifically gets better when the weather's bad.
• 49:44
  So that sort. Okay, yes.
• 49:46
  So that part of call lightning absolutely good cinematic
• 49:50
  design, but anything that's like you just do some damage of a
• 49:54
  specific type. Like flamestrike I would say no.
• 49:58
  So like call lightning on its own, not so much.
• 50:01
  The fact that call lightning has that like it's storming outside.
• 50:04
  It does more damage. That's good fantasy.
• 50:06
  It evocative, instead of backbone.
• 50:08
  Really, so what I would say like the good.
• 50:09
  Another good example is heat metal.
• 50:11
  Like yes, you are the metals. And so because because you are
• 50:14
  doing something specific, it is causing damage.
• 50:17
  Not you are causing damage of us, you're just doing damage.
• 50:20
  Yeah. Yes.
• 50:21
  It's like another thing would be like, if acid or poison a
• 50:25
  actually did damage over time. Got gotten said we have dots.
• 50:29
  Yeah. Because, you know, you're burnt
• 50:31
  like heat metal is literally like one of the few tots we have
• 50:35
  the key and a. Yeah, I don't remind me of what
• 50:39
  I lost Sam. Oh yeah.
• 50:43
  But I come from me. But like that that's it's oh
• 50:52
  another example of 40 and he's like action surge it's like the
• 50:56
  fighter is literally so good at fighting they can just do more
• 50:59
  sheldor climbing. Yeah like yeah d and e has
• 51:04
  moments of it and then you remember that you're still in
• 51:06
  the grid based combat and it like kills some of the momentum
• 51:14
  it does not for me. Yeah same I was gonna say I
• 51:17
  mean, as someone who played other games like listen, as I
• 51:22
  was playing a lot of other games that don't obey this system.
• 51:25
  You get so much more epic like not even a free flow Freedom.
• 51:31
  I'm not a grid based systems. I've also played those games,
• 51:34
  don't worry but like not as much as I have like.
• 51:37
  Yeah but really like it makes a difference.
• 51:41
  I don't think it does that much we live but sure.
• 51:45
  Okay so I am agreeing Josh here, just because of the fact that
• 51:49
  like, if you have so Maca games, all right, are very cinematic by
• 51:57
  locking yourself into a grid based system, sure whatever.
• 52:01
  But like, it doesn't ruin it but it definitely.
• 52:06
  Which like I will absolutely after the fact, put a cinematic
• 52:11
  it's been on in your head. Yeah, but when I don't have the
• 52:15
  grid based system I absolutely Liam just doing that already
• 52:19
  feel. I get, it's the difference
• 52:21
  between like It's the thing where you know, in its go off
• 52:29
  the mecca example in Souls of Steel, Sam says I fucking fly up
• 52:33
  the Ridge and snipe the shit out this dude.
• 52:35
  And like the game doesn't get in the way in any in any particular
• 52:38
  way. You don't have to pause and
• 52:40
  think about does this work. And I do this by blocking Ridge.
• 52:43
  Yeah. Indy Indy, you have to go.
• 52:46
  Okay. Do I have enough movement?
• 52:47
  All right. I have enough movement.
• 52:48
  All right, so I use my move action.
• 52:49
  Okay. How far away is a maze is x
• 52:51
  amount of distance. Okay, that's what do I have any?
• 52:53
  Okay, I have the Ammos it going to do enough damage to kill him.
• 52:55
  Okay, I hope is gonna do enough damage.
• 52:57
  You know. There's all these like
• 52:58
  mechanical stop Gates as opposed to more free flow.
• 53:03
  More fiction, for fiction. First game is really, really
• 53:07
  wrong. I understand what you're saying.
• 53:08
  What I'm saying is to me, I still get that same like
• 53:12
  cinematic feel that I would otherwise I'm not saying it's
• 53:16
  non-existent but it's it's different.
• 53:20
  And you have to sort of like Slate it when you're working
• 53:25
  through a grid-based, tactics game to use what I said.
• 53:30
  So I mean the game the the game mechanics also are translating
• 53:33
  these things? Yeah, yeah.
• 53:40
  So where was going to say is that?
• 53:42
  Usually what I said before about how I translate things
• 53:46
  cinematically in my head. After the fact if I'm playing a
• 53:49
  grid-based game, it just possible that especially
• 53:54
  Scenario. We're just different in that
• 53:56
  regard if you mean sure. Yeah system and you're already
• 54:00
  translating it real time cinematically in your head then
• 54:03
  it's just that way for you. I can't do that because I'm too
• 54:09
  focused on exactly what I'm going to do is and that going.
• 54:13
  Yeah, I'm too focused on that specifically like especially
• 54:20
  like right now playing a paladin with auras and shit.
• 54:23
  I I am 100% focusing on how many people I have in that aura to
• 54:30
  basically protect them. Not.
• 54:33
  Okay, so this is just a thing that I give my friends.
• 54:38
  If I stay near them, fictionally versus say, I have to be within
• 54:42
  10 feet. Exactly.
• 54:44
  Yeah, yeah. So it's a bit different, you
• 54:47
  know. Yeah.
• 54:48
  And it's a different mindset to. Yeah, it's a book.
• 54:53
  So I'm Not arguing that all I'm saying is I get the same
• 54:56
  fulfillment from a great base game that I get from a non good
• 55:00
  base game. That's all I want.
• 55:02
  What I'm saying is there's there's a reason why that we
• 55:05
  have this differing opinion and it could literally just be the
• 55:07
  fact that when we think about things cinematically, some of us
• 55:10
  are too stuck in rules to actually think about it
• 55:13
  cinematically when we had that system is very little time.
• 55:15
  I'm not. I'm not saying that that Oh, I'm
• 55:22
  just doing it better as I'm saying, which is just you just
• 55:24
  said you don't have that. I just said I do have that and
• 55:27
  yeah, I well but I'm literally saying that you can do this.
• 55:33
  Well, I can't and I might help if you have to be honest like if
• 55:38
  you have a dungeon master or whatever, whoever whatever they
• 55:41
  called mother names like game bastard was the generic term.
• 55:45
  Yeah. Someone who's describing things
• 55:47
  a lot better like it they even. If it's a little bit description
• 55:51
  can help make things a little more cinematic than I just think
• 55:55
  that's over here. Roasted me, but I'm sorry but
• 55:59
  just learn to describe. I'm sorry for it now and
• 56:02
  everything I literally just got okay pause pause, no whole lot
• 56:06
  by two players here to defend me.
• 56:07
  I described shit all the time. Do I not?
• 56:09
  Wait. So where are you just said?
• 56:10
  I think I was joking. I was joking.
• 56:19
  Try was saying, Matt was throwing me under the bus
• 56:21
  because Sam I'm the only GM Force am currently.
• 56:24
  So I was saying, oh, Matt is subtweeting me.
• 56:27
  I was joking, but that many double down.
• 56:30
  I wasn't expecting the double down.
• 56:33
  No idea. What the Jack this is cry.
• 56:35
  Better here? I do think it does help.
• 56:44
  If your DM describe, even like sometimes if combats taking too
• 56:47
  long, my brain will shut off. And I will describe things a
• 56:49
  little Yes. But I always try and put some
• 56:52
  tiny bit of effort in describing shouldn't cost you like yeah.
• 56:55
  I said this really early on in like the like the the one of
• 57:00
  our, how to run a game episodes and my biggest thing with combat
• 57:03
  is enthusiasm, if you're enthusiastic about it, if you're
• 57:06
  explaining it in an enthusiastic way, it's infectious and the
• 57:10
  other players will start to see it that way as well.
• 57:13
  Yes, I know this is all well and good.
• 57:15
  None of this is about the actual design of the game, which is
• 57:17
  really think a I'm harping on Yeah, I know, but it's something
• 57:20
  that D and it's perfect. Hopefully something that will be
• 57:23
  addressed in the 1dd. It will be mg.
• 57:26
  Yeah, well because that's that's one of the things that were
• 57:29
  talked about in the Summit is teaching these things to DMs
• 57:33
  like why you should maybe out of my house up Laver and I so many
• 57:37
  are you good night? Have your home?
• 57:39
  Yeah that doesn't mean it's not gonna be there sonali I'm gonna
• 57:42
  be there. I do think that based on you
• 57:48
  know, Wizards previous Let's hope, quote, unquote and EMS.
• 57:53
  It's not great, a great showing us that unless they prove their
• 57:58
  particular writing with that, I am not holding up my hopes for
• 58:02
  being particularly useful for anybody but maybe new diems.
• 58:06
  Ya know, either way, this is all talking about GM intervention.
• 58:11
  I'm talking about the way the game is on its own since.
• 58:16
  Oh, so yes, gee, I bet driven should could do a lot of magical
• 58:19
  things. But that's not really the point.
• 58:24
  Shit. Where was I?
• 58:26
  Oh okay. Couple other examples I want I
• 58:31
  mentioned the Druid shapeshifter ability indulge world.
• 58:34
  So I'm just going to read this one out and sort of explain my
• 58:38
  point. So, When you call upon the
• 58:45
  spirits to change your shape, you roll plus your wisdom, the
• 58:48
  10 plus you hold three and the seven to nine.
• 58:51
  You hold two on a miss, you hold one in addition to whatever the
• 58:54
  gm6. So hold in in the context of
• 58:58
  dungeon world and most powered by the apocalypse games is sort
• 59:01
  of like a little temporary currency that you have for your
• 59:05
  ability that you could spend to do things.
• 59:09
  It's kind of like an ammo count. The in addition to whatever the
• 59:13
  GM says, part is any time you roll a six or below and a
• 59:16
  powered by the apocalypse game, the GM gets to be like, okay,
• 59:20
  something bad happens to you. So in this case you still get to
• 59:24
  shape change that the GM. Never tells you cannot ever tell
• 59:28
  you you don't shape James. They like can't take that away
• 59:31
  from you unless there's some sort of crazy fictional thing
• 59:33
  where it's like you're in a fucking anti magic Dimension or
• 59:35
  whatever, you know shit like that obviously fictional stuff.
• 59:38
  But like mechanically speaking they can't tell, you know, it
• 59:41
  The roll. Take the physical form of any
• 59:46
  species, whose essence you have studied, or who lives in your
• 59:48
  land. Basically, you know animal,
• 59:49
  you're familiar with you and your possessions melt into the
• 59:52
  species form, you know the usual stuff you have innate abilities
• 59:56
  and weaknesses of the Forum Clause Wings, gills, breathing
• 59:59
  water instead of are you still use your normal stats but some
• 1:00:03
  moves may be harder to trigger house cat.
• 1:00:06
  Will find it harder to do battle with an ogre.
• 1:00:08
  GM will also tell you one or more moves associated with your
• 1:00:12
  new form. Spend one whole to make that
• 1:00:15
  move. Once you're out of hold, you
• 1:00:16
  return to your natural form. At any time, you may spend all
• 1:00:19
  your hold to revert things. I like about this.
• 1:00:23
  You're not taking on any step locks.
• 1:00:25
  You're just saying I turn into this animal.
• 1:00:29
  That's the first thing that's already really freeform and
• 1:00:31
  like, you know, it lets you do the Doric like I'm gonna turn
• 1:00:36
  into a fly and then you don't have to worry about a fly stat
• 1:00:38
  block through just gets turned to the fly and do the thing.
• 1:00:43
  The hold mechanic GM. Gets to tell you.
• 1:00:46
  Alright, cool. So in the form, let's go with
• 1:00:48
  the house cat example, suppose in the form of a house cat.
• 1:00:52
  You can climb walls, you can hide, and you could call the
• 1:00:57
  shit out of someone. Get to spend one of your hold to
• 1:01:00
  just do that because you're that animal.
• 1:01:02
  You just get to do that. You don't even have to make a
• 1:01:05
  roll. You just go for it.
• 1:01:06
  Once you burn up all your whole that's when you turn back.
• 1:01:09
  Also notice there's no timer On the shapeshifter ability and
• 1:01:13
  dungeon world. Because there's no timers on
• 1:01:16
  anything and Dunn's world because they don't care about
• 1:01:18
  like time spans, really. So the Druid character could
• 1:01:22
  turn into a house cat and sneak around the house.
• 1:01:25
  Like, sneaker is break into the bad guys home and stay there all
• 1:01:29
  day as the house cat. And, if all they're doing is
• 1:01:32
  sort of like hiding or like, moving around and acting like a
• 1:01:36
  cat that's not necessarily using any of their hold.
• 1:01:39
  It could just do that all day long.
• 1:01:41
  Maybe they'll, Have to make a couple of like normal moves,
• 1:01:44
  which is to say sort of the rough equivalent of like a DMV
• 1:01:47
  check still check. They could just do that all day
• 1:01:51
  long and stay there also to go back to the door and honor among
• 1:01:57
  Thieves example, you can go from form to form, there's that
• 1:02:01
  restrictions, not there. And there's no limit.
• 1:02:03
  And you might say, okay, So how do you stop the Druid from just
• 1:02:07
  doing this constantly every time you make a roll?
• 1:02:12
  There's a chance, you fail, the roll any time you fail.
• 1:02:15
  The roll bad shit happens to you.
• 1:02:18
  Every time you have to shape-shift you're taking that
• 1:02:21
  chance that's sort of the primary balancing.
• 1:02:24
  Also when was like wild magic for Drew it's okay no I wouldn't
• 1:02:29
  know. So it's not a punishment thing.
• 1:02:31
  Well no so the punishment thing is a universal mechanic in the
• 1:02:34
  game. Anytime you.
• 1:02:35
  Roll a seven to nine or so. 7 to 9, you get a medium success
• 1:02:39
  which is to say you get what you want at a cost six and Below you
• 1:02:44
  might not get it from, you may guess you want you may not and
• 1:02:47
  something bad happens also. So it's like a fictional thing.
• 1:02:51
  It's more like failing, a check and D&D.
• 1:02:53
  It's like, I would like to sell. Check you fail.
• 1:02:56
  Okay, cool. You are now spotted, what do you
• 1:02:58
  do? So like the Druid example, you
• 1:03:01
  might shape-shift into the cat. If you failed that role you
• 1:03:05
  still Get shapes of a new cat, you still get one.
• 1:03:07
  Hold what some dude on the street saw you shape-shift and
• 1:03:10
  starts making a commotion. What do you do?
• 1:03:13
  You know what I mean? You put in like, okay, you get
• 1:03:16
  you get to do the thing but now you have to respond to a
• 1:03:18
  problem. And that is, you know, that
• 1:03:23
  ability I just love because of how freeform it is and how like
• 1:03:28
  could do so many cool ideas. And you could literally do the
• 1:03:31
  Doric scene with this mechanic, no problem.
• 1:03:35
  You know what I mean? Um, I will say, aye.
• 1:03:39
  I rule it slightly different when I ran dungeon world where
• 1:03:44
  instead of telling the player, what abilities their form has I
• 1:03:49
  just say, What do you do as that animal?
• 1:03:51
  And if it's something that I felt like is worthy of spending
• 1:03:54
  hold via the animals innate abilities.
• 1:03:58
  Then I just had them spend the hold rather than like make a
• 1:04:00
  list because it just didn't feel like making a list.
• 1:04:02
  So if a player is like, I turned into a bear and I use my Bears.
• 1:04:05
  Wait to like, tackle the dude, I be like, alright, spend one
• 1:04:07
  whole to do that. But that's sort of a me
• 1:04:10
  adjusting that rule ever so slightly.
• 1:04:14
  And then the other one, and Isaiah actually knows about this
• 1:04:16
  one. The fighters signature weapon.
• 1:04:22
  And I mean, I don't even really gotta say much about this.
• 1:04:25
  The fighter gets a signature weapon into the world and they
• 1:04:27
  get to pick a bunch of enhancements and traits to
• 1:04:31
  Define what the weapon looks like, how it works, what cool
• 1:04:34
  abilities, it has. And I mean that's like it's
• 1:04:38
  quintessential fighter shit. Like, in terms of like the
• 1:04:41
  Cinematic feel of a Fighter character, like you have your
• 1:04:44
  specific weapon, you're a Belmont.
• 1:04:45
  You have your whip, your link. You have the fucking Master
• 1:04:49
  Sword. You know what I mean?
• 1:04:50
  Like, that Vibe is Like I mean it doesn't get better than that
• 1:04:54
  as far as I'm concerned. And on top of that, the sort of
• 1:05:01
  sort of easy to hack, nature of most power by the apocalypse
• 1:05:05
  games means that, if you can't make exactly what you want out
• 1:05:09
  of the fighter signature weapon, it's pretty easy to make a
• 1:05:12
  couple adjustments. And be like boom, boom, like
• 1:05:15
  Isaiah literally, when we played dungeon world for like two
• 1:05:18
  sessions as I literally made a whip character and we made some
• 1:05:22
  like small mechanical adjustments like boom whip.
• 1:05:31
  Now it's not much else to say about that one.
• 1:05:32
  I just think the signature weapons for oh that's what I was
• 1:05:34
  talking about where I was like the difference between the
• 1:05:36
  Paladin and the fighter and judge world is like you could
• 1:05:39
  make the argument that the Paladin is numerically better
• 1:05:44
  but the fighters signature weapon is such a cool and
• 1:05:46
  evocative thing. That almost that one ability
• 1:05:49
  alone is enough to make you be like yeah, I want to play a
• 1:05:52
  fighter instead and And nobody else gets that ability to just a
• 1:05:57
  key point that whole Niche protection topic, right?
• 1:06:01
  If something is really cinematic and invokes the fantasy of a
• 1:06:05
  specific class, don't give that cool thing away to somebody
• 1:06:10
  else. Right?
• 1:06:13
  The Druids wild shape, nobody else gets used that the channel
• 1:06:16
  Divinity is. The clerics think while the
• 1:06:18
  cleric and the Paladin? Maybe that's a bad example.
• 1:06:20
  But Artic, inspiration is the bards thing.
• 1:06:26
  That's also as an aside. Part of the reason in D&D, I
• 1:06:31
  hate how much spell crossover there is nowadays?
• 1:06:36
  Hate that a lot. Like, there's no real spells
• 1:06:39
  that are unique to any of the classes because some subclass
• 1:06:42
  inevitably is going to give you the Spells.
• 1:06:45
  Yeah, I mean, there's a couple. There's there's a few, there's a
• 1:06:48
  couple in there. Like, I forgot what it's called
• 1:06:51
  and it's it came out in zennith ours.
• 1:06:54
  It's the depends, you know, the stone pillar spell.
• 1:06:57
  I always thought it was like a wizard.
• 1:06:59
  Like sorcerer's fell, but in five years, just as Druid spell
• 1:07:02
  only Druids can make stone pillars.
• 1:07:05
  I don't know why, but I like it only then.
• 1:07:11
  I really like the spell crossover and 5e as it does
• 1:07:14
  that, it does. The thing that I really like
• 1:07:16
  where it doesn't like if I take a class, I'm not necessarily
• 1:07:20
  pigeon-holed into a roll or theme, I can dabble in other
• 1:07:24
  ones and I really appreciate that.
• 1:07:26
  So I definitely wouldn't count that as a negative.
• 1:07:29
  It's I don't know. It's like a fine line.
• 1:07:31
  I feel like it it kills the fantasy of Yeah but again Josh
• 1:07:38
  this is the Edition where everyone fucking multi-class so
• 1:07:40
  you have people who are through heck the hexes and Source lock
• 1:07:43
  fucking whatever the hell is this true?
• 1:07:45
  You have people who are like, my thing is I'm the sorcerer magic
• 1:07:49
  but also I cast I have a pact with an Elders Abomination.
• 1:07:52
  Also, I'm in full plate, you know like what are you out here?
• 1:07:56
  Just casted on his trailer. I love my buddy wolf, I love him
• 1:08:00
  but I do not enjoy accident things that's fair.
• 1:08:05
  But I mean it. It is, I don't think anybody
• 1:08:07
  blames you. It is just it's just a damn
• 1:08:10
  thing. Like I don't, I don't actually
• 1:08:12
  take any actual offense to it, but it's just a thing.
• 1:08:14
  I like the beautiful night because it's an easy target, I'm
• 1:08:17
  sorry. It's fair to be.
• 1:08:19
  I mean for, yeah, for me, it's like, like, in my mind if it
• 1:08:23
  were up to me, it felt like a spell like entangle, for
• 1:08:26
  example, that would be drew it in Ranger only.
• 1:08:30
  It's just I'm sure I'm sure a lot of people disagree with me
• 1:08:36
  on this, but I just I do like Ranger though.
• 1:08:38
  I like Ranger having it like their nature, boys.
• 1:08:41
  Get the nature stuff, you know. Like yeah, that's fine.
• 1:08:44
  And the one, the one re the one nature pallid.
• 1:08:47
  Yeah. So that's one.
• 1:08:48
  That's all they like. I wear wood armor a little bit.
• 1:08:50
  Yeah, I don't know. That's what I mean, right?
• 1:08:52
  It's a fine line because yes, the Green Knight is a thing.
• 1:08:55
  So it's like Alan and get it, I guess.
• 1:08:58
  Kinda Yeah, it's a it's a it's a fine line.
• 1:09:03
  Well, that's why the subclasses again 5e super big on
• 1:09:06
  subclasses. That's where it's like a lot of
• 1:09:07
  this guy. Now over comes from well, I'm
• 1:09:10
  like before and be annoying. It can also enhance I'm for and
• 1:09:14
  against it at the same time. We're gonna say, I say, oh, I'll
• 1:09:20
  just say, well, this, the kind of degree night thing, right?
• 1:09:22
  It's like you, yeah. Get a like, I don't know, I just
• 1:09:26
  might be a poison pen point of contention across you who like
• 1:09:29
  5e but I could give a fuck. I like the idea that you're like
• 1:09:33
  oh well I want to play kind of like a hunter but the way the
• 1:09:36
  Rangers not really my vibe. So I'll do some fighter and I
• 1:09:40
  like, you know, I'll do some Elders.
• 1:09:42
  Tonight's give them some nature-based boat, like I like
• 1:09:44
  that. You can do that.
• 1:09:46
  Is like for me? Yeah, I really do not like wild
• 1:09:51
  shape for Druid. So if I want to play a nature
• 1:09:54
  Caster I can still do that and not feel like I'm using shit on
• 1:09:58
  level UPS because it's pumping a bunch of shit into wild shape.
• 1:10:01
  The thing that I don't care about it's so weird because all
• 1:10:04
  I can even was the consummate that like Druids are one of the
• 1:10:08
  least play class and 5e and you think watch and now they're
• 1:10:12
  trying to make it with one D and D that will shape is their main
• 1:10:14
  stick. When I say was always been
• 1:10:16
  there, made stick this. Okay, hold on you.
• 1:10:18
  Well, that's the thing. For moondru.
• 1:10:20
  It's yes. Any other times he's ruining
• 1:10:23
  know anytime. I see somebody else playing a
• 1:10:25
  druid. They either do the thing where
• 1:10:27
  when you have the flame jury, who's they use?
• 1:10:29
  Their wild shape to summon a fire Avatar.
• 1:10:31
  Okay. You have the Spore Druid who
• 1:10:33
  uses their the 204 poison damage.
• 1:10:36
  Yeah like well also Isaiah they gave out what you want to hear
• 1:10:39
  but it did give you what you want because the other
• 1:10:43
  subclasses do use wild shit for different shit.
• 1:10:45
  No I know they do. I was just getting it sort of an
• 1:10:47
  example like I don't know. My thing is, like, the
• 1:10:51
  stereotypical, Druid the, the animal changing kind of is the
• 1:10:54
  stick. Like, well, I'm very for me
• 1:11:04
  because I always thought that it was the land Druid.
• 1:11:07
  The Lander is basically a druid wizard, they are a magician
• 1:11:10
  there, a magic user, who uses Magic from the land and you're
• 1:11:13
  depending on what language you are, and they know where the
• 1:11:15
  source of this is goddamn, furry Warcraft.
• 1:11:19
  Left. Oh wow, it's definitely an
• 1:11:21
  ambulance. I'm not going to say it's not,
• 1:11:22
  but I don't think it's just well, I think a lot of idle I
• 1:11:26
  think that yes, a lot of people have this assumption but that's
• 1:11:29
  because games, like, Wow, have popularized the idea that Druid
• 1:11:35
  should do this? I like, I think so, even even in
• 1:11:40
  like, mythology, idea of the archetypal Druid, they always
• 1:11:44
  turn into an animal at some point.
• 1:11:46
  No, it feels like the feeling of thing is just kind of a thing
• 1:11:51
  that magic users did not specifically Drew.
• 1:11:54
  Okay? Yeah, I mean, maybe it's more of
• 1:11:56
  a general magic thing. Well, kind of because the
• 1:11:59
  arterial Druids were just nature Wizards.
• 1:12:03
  Yeah, Witcher. They were like the idea of a
• 1:12:05
  witch like casting spells over a cauldron, Andrew shit.
• 1:12:08
  It wasn't like, I turn into an animal.
• 1:12:11
  And yeah, for me I think the the for me, like the archetypal
• 1:12:15
  drew. It is just like I command the
• 1:12:17
  elements like. Yeah, that's it.
• 1:12:20
  And that's what I want. I like I don't want to turn into
• 1:12:23
  a fucking squirrel. Yeah, I'd again.
• 1:12:26
  Sorry. I hate your hatred of the
• 1:12:28
  shape-shift. I do not, I don't hate it.
• 1:12:31
  I just don't, will you bring up on it to be a universal ability?
• 1:12:34
  I just, I just don't care enough.
• 1:12:37
  I'm never you, I've played a druid to what once or twice.
• 1:12:42
  I literally went never going to use this like and you know, the
• 1:12:45
  one time I did I was the fucking Wildfire Druid for the one shot.
• 1:12:48
  I was like, oh, this makes me not want to shoot myself in the
• 1:12:51
  fucking foot. I just don't want.
• 1:12:56
  I'm not that I'm not. I'm gonna get on my bike tongues
• 1:13:00
  because I can't ya very heat. I'll give her heat on this one I
• 1:13:06
  guess I don't know. I do have something I want to I
• 1:13:10
  want to bring to the table. I brought something for
• 1:13:12
  show-and-tell today teacher, why you brought things to the table.
• 1:13:15
  I know I think enough for the had one last example, but God.
• 1:13:19
  Okay. Well, so my example is actually
• 1:13:22
  something I'm currently using in meistrich Saving game.
• 1:13:25
  The the quote unquote, knockoff quidditch also known as Mage
• 1:13:28
  Tower, which in the book, it gives the you as just a Skull
• 1:13:33
  Challenge. It's not, isn't it like one
• 1:13:35
  roll? It's so here.
• 1:13:38
  I'll copy paste as you guys can see but basically it's three I'm
• 1:13:42
  just going to say, you know, they say phases but it's three
• 1:13:45
  turns of calm, you know, skill challenge where the players due
• 1:13:48
  to rules per turn and then they give you a couple extra rules
• 1:13:53
  for like if you want to cast a spell you grant advantage and
• 1:13:56
  you know like it's a lot of tax, I'm sorry.
• 1:14:00
  But basically it's just Divine, it just breaks down to a total
• 1:14:03
  of six skill checks. And then if you want to know, do
• 1:14:10
  a skill for turn, you can cast a spell which so I might yeah, me
• 1:14:14
  and my players have been going back and forth and we finally
• 1:14:17
  like I actually added a few phases.
• 1:14:19
  We tweak some shit and now the players enjoy doing it.
• 1:14:22
  I had doing it. There's a you have a question
• 1:14:24
  about this mat or like, no, he's an example of what he would.
• 1:14:28
  He would prefer to be more cinematic fur.
• 1:14:30
  Because yeah, so you're so, here's here's my thing.
• 1:14:33
  This is way too specific. Hmm.
• 1:14:36
  Yeah, this is it Absolutist. It is just way too specific for
• 1:14:39
  what it is. It needed like it being
• 1:14:43
  specifically broken phases is whatever but the fact but the
• 1:14:48
  fact that it's like a specific subject to this is what you do.
• 1:14:51
  Like not oh can I do this and then you give them a check it's
• 1:14:56
  you do this? Yeah because I prefer the norm
• 1:14:59
  like I guess the normal or I guess fourth edition method of
• 1:15:03
  skill checks where there's a situation.
• 1:15:06
  You me as a damn rights out of like a bunch of answers, that
• 1:15:10
  the players can do depending on what skill they pick and just
• 1:15:13
  let them pick the scales and they might come up with an even
• 1:15:15
  better answers than I have or Gore creative ways than I
• 1:15:18
  thought of like the whole Matt Cole built our thing.
• 1:15:21
  When I ran that, I didn't have any answers down.
• 1:15:24
  I just let my players like, alright, how do you escape the
• 1:15:26
  crumbling Castle? Right still challenge.
• 1:15:28
  So, so, yeah, that's the thing is.
• 1:15:31
  Yeah, absolutely. It's due to specific the fact
• 1:15:33
  that it calls out specific skills, like It's checked, the
• 1:15:37
  dash, pass, the opposing team, Berber wisdom, Insight check to
• 1:15:40
  anticipate the, but you know, I hate all that, get all that out
• 1:15:44
  of here. I also don't like that
• 1:15:45
  specifies. The different level of casting
• 1:15:47
  giving like a specific kind of benefit, because you're gonna
• 1:15:52
  tell me that fly and Fireball give the same benefit in this
• 1:15:56
  scenario, right? Right.
• 1:15:57
  I will also, I will also say that this is meant for players
• 1:16:00
  between level five and six. So they just getting third level
• 1:16:04
  spells and then you know well Steak still have a few more
• 1:16:07
  slots, I mean. Yeah, that's fine.
• 1:16:09
  So I'm not it has nothing to do with the player level.
• 1:16:11
  What I'm saying is the fact that they specified spell level in
• 1:16:14
  any way, I think it's dumb and the fact that they lumped all of
• 1:16:17
  them by level and are like, oh, third level spells, do this
• 1:16:21
  first and second do this, when the Spells do when the spells in
• 1:16:24
  the game, do so many crazy different things, those two
• 1:16:28
  blocks of text should just not be there.
• 1:16:30
  Instead, what it should say is probably something along the
• 1:16:32
  lines of you can if you can use a spell in a creative way, Way
• 1:16:37
  your GM could Grant you advantage or your GM?
• 1:16:40
  Could Grant you a successful tick on the clock you know
• 1:16:42
  something along those lines something that's way more broad.
• 1:16:45
  I left out that they did give an example for the whole first
• 1:16:48
  alike. They said, like, you know, like
• 1:16:50
  DMI cast grease on the floor to make my, you know, my Ally slide
• 1:16:55
  faster across the, you know, the field or whatever they literally
• 1:16:58
  said, that's like the one example they give in the by I
• 1:17:00
  know what their train of thought was I just think trying to
• 1:17:04
  Trying to lump the spells all into one big basket and like,
• 1:17:08
  first and second and then third is just not like casting a third
• 1:17:12
  level or higher. Okay, casting a spell of third
• 1:17:16
  level or higher counts as a successful ability, check for
• 1:17:18
  the purpose of determining the winning team but you're saying
• 1:17:21
  is whether I cast fly or I blow up the enemy team with Fireball.
• 1:17:25
  It's the same effect either way that we're that's goofy like
• 1:17:29
  that's not that just feels that just feels like a very clinical
• 1:17:33
  game. Polizei, knee mechanical like X.
• 1:17:36
  Does why that's all that? It's when it doesn't even feel
• 1:17:39
  like you're playing a game. You're not yet in the game.
• 1:17:42
  You're just starting your solving a puzzle.
• 1:17:45
  Sort of thing. Are you sorry weirdly enough for
• 1:17:50
  me? I don't feel like my personal
• 1:17:55
  beef is that the rules are too stringent.
• 1:18:00
  I just think there's not enough of them weirdly enough.
• 1:18:04
  Okay, so I we in my home game. I've actually added two phases.
• 1:18:09
  Yeah. Different scary said that.
• 1:18:11
  But I mean like how do you mean like phases?
• 1:18:13
  Like I want rules for intercepts.
• 1:18:15
  I want rules for ball passing. I want lose for catching and
• 1:18:19
  like the problem. Get into it, okay, because I
• 1:18:24
  feel like I think the thing we're taught.
• 1:18:27
  So as is thinking it's look brain, there's two, he's there's
• 1:18:32
  you camps, there's two camps of this are right.
• 1:18:34
  Mmm. If so you're playing Mage Tower
• 1:18:38
  in the strict saving date. If you want the Harry pottage
• 1:18:43
  quidditch match, seen you need to do an Isaiah saying, you need
• 1:18:47
  to add more to it to get that really cinematic like turning
• 1:18:51
  the quit it you know like the quit I've seen and being like,
• 1:18:54
  yes we're going to play this out for an extended period of time.
• 1:18:57
  If you want this to just be like a little quick moment, the
• 1:19:01
  players go out, have a match, come back, then you can pare
• 1:19:05
  down and simplify the rules so you have to decide that's a big
• 1:19:09
  thing with like Deciding what direction you want, the game
• 1:19:14
  designed to go in? And then saying, is this
• 1:19:16
  something I want to spend time with that, I want to be big in
• 1:19:19
  cinematic or is this sort of a footnote to something else,
• 1:19:24
  right? Because the whole next big thing
• 1:19:27
  of the campaign is mainly playing this game and one of the
• 1:19:31
  other guys, so it should be more than that.
• 1:19:33
  Yeah. So a besides, adding the two
• 1:19:34
  other phases, which my players really liked.
• 1:19:37
  The other thing is the magic rules.
• 1:19:39
  Might now we're trying to decide back Forth between we, the
• 1:19:43
  players like day. Didn't enjoy the fact that just
• 1:19:46
  like I have to spend to turn the cast.
• 1:19:48
  The spell. Just does it and then all I'm
• 1:19:50
  doing is giving someone else Advantage.
• 1:19:52
  Can't I just give that's last as well.
• 1:19:54
  That's not cinematic. Exactly.
• 1:19:56
  Yeah, you're just giving it back.
• 1:19:57
  I've been bouncing back and forth on it because I'm like
• 1:20:00
  this may add some complication into it but also it's going to
• 1:20:03
  be the four, Thirty fucking fun. So I might just yeah, that's a
• 1:20:06
  thing where I'm like, I might say yeah.
• 1:20:09
  Because then the other part is the third level.
• 1:20:10
  Spell and higher rule which also then when we start getting the
• 1:20:14
  higher level spells, shit's gonna get wonky and just just
• 1:20:19
  not saying like not trying to like, you know, call out
• 1:20:22
  players, whatever. Only one of my players by this
• 1:20:26
  point will be able to cast third level spells.
• 1:20:28
  So that means if like hypothetically, I threw entire
• 1:20:33
  team of wizards. That my players, tired Seema was
• 1:20:36
  has to be like, alright, so the entire other mates, our team is
• 1:20:40
  going to cast fire. All every single one of them.
• 1:20:42
  Okay. Yeah, no.
• 1:20:43
  Yeah. Dickhead yes, that would be like
• 1:20:45
  super on fun, right? Because you're just you're just
• 1:20:47
  solving the puzzle with the answer.
• 1:20:49
  That is the correct yet? Yeah.
• 1:20:52
  Sam. Say you're thinking that I have
• 1:20:54
  some big Ideas so what? The building what I say was
• 1:21:02
  saying and this is why I say it's to specific it by going the
• 1:21:08
  opposite direction and making it.
• 1:21:10
  Hey, like, you know, here's an example of rules then the DM can
• 1:21:15
  just make rulings for those things like, yes, having
• 1:21:20
  catching, you know, intercepting, passing whatever
• 1:21:23
  rules is perfectly fine. It is a good way for people to
• 1:21:28
  visualize what they can do. In the match.
• 1:21:33
  But I think that having like, you know, if you're going to do
• 1:21:36
  the phases thing, you can't be too specific and if you're not
• 1:21:40
  going to be broad because like when I said, broad, I mean,
• 1:21:46
  like, if you're going to be specific, you have to have a
• 1:21:49
  very large scope of what people can do versus.
• 1:21:55
  Hey, you can do these two things or you can cast a spell.
• 1:21:59
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:22:01
  I mean also kind of building and for what Isaiah 60 like if I
• 1:22:05
  were to, if it were my job to make this minigame, right?
• 1:22:10
  Hmm. And I wanted to make this let's
• 1:22:12
  say or actually fuck it. Let's say I'm running, strict
• 1:22:14
  saving and I want this to be the big quidditch scene.
• 1:22:17
  I forgot to remember, is it like the third Harry Potter movie?
• 1:22:20
  Where they have like the big tournament or something
• 1:22:22
  Foreigner? The fourth, that's literally
• 1:22:23
  what I'm basing. The fourth.
• 1:22:24
  Okay. Yeah.
• 1:22:25
  He's like a big question. Tournament tournaments like a
• 1:22:31
  big thing at some point. So there's the professional one.
• 1:22:34
  Yeah. But I forget which book that
• 1:22:36
  doesn't look right. Yeah.
• 1:22:38
  Um, that's the fourth one. Yeah.
• 1:22:39
  Okay. So you want this scene you want
• 1:22:42
  this the Mage Tower session. Be a big cinematic moment.
• 1:22:46
  You like yeah, we're going to make the thing.
• 1:22:48
  The players are going to play are going to be on the team are
• 1:22:50
  going to do the cool shit. All right, how do you handle it?
• 1:22:54
  The phases are fine. I think, I think you doing it in
• 1:22:57
  in some sort of semi turn structures.
• 1:23:00
  Probably good idea. Mmm, a magic rules throw all
• 1:23:03
  that shit out and just say you can use a spell on your turn and
• 1:23:08
  tell me how the spell is effective or helpful.
• 1:23:11
  And I will tell you what the responses, maybe you have to
• 1:23:14
  make a check maybe, you know, it would depend on the spell,
• 1:23:17
  right? All right.
• 1:23:18
  The ball carrier, I cast fly on cool.
• 1:23:19
  The ball carrier gets Advantage because you just gets to now fly
• 1:23:22
  over everyone. You know, that's a pretty
• 1:23:23
  straightforward. Hmm, I would like to Fireball
• 1:23:25
  the ground in front of the enemy team, okay?
• 1:23:28
  Enemy teams going to make a role to try and like Dodge around
• 1:23:30
  your Fireball. You know, like make it a real
• 1:23:33
  make, it basically a situation of tell me what you're doing
• 1:23:36
  much like a like a scale challenge.
• 1:23:38
  Tell me what you're doing with the spell and then I will
• 1:23:40
  respond in kind with what you might have to do what role you
• 1:23:43
  might have to make Etc. That's how it handled magic
• 1:23:46
  situation. I would not specify it in any
• 1:23:49
  way because Again the firewall the fireball versus fly thing is
• 1:23:53
  like so silly to me and it is funny Matt that you mentioned.
• 1:23:56
  Yeah. The enemy team of wizards could
• 1:23:58
  just all cast, Fireball, and automatically win, which is
• 1:24:01
  exactly. That's literally what.
• 1:24:03
  Yeah, which is why I've had like I already made a bunch of the
• 1:24:06
  teams. They're not all like Mages that
• 1:24:08
  would be awful. Exactly.
• 1:24:10
  Yeah. But again, that's why I'm like,
• 1:24:13
  it's like taking consider the rules and then also considering
• 1:24:16
  my players and then being like, if I do this, they will be at
• 1:24:20
  this. Advantage, because of his job
• 1:24:22
  because only one player is going to be able to do this like third
• 1:24:26
  level spell nonsense. Another, so another.
• 1:24:28
  So in terms of like how you would handle checks and stuff,
• 1:24:32
  my train of thought would be okay, kind of like what Isaiah
• 1:24:36
  was saying rules for specific things.
• 1:24:38
  If you're trying to catch up to a dude you know maybe you have
• 1:24:42
  to make a check or maybe you could base it on movement speed,
• 1:24:45
  that's kind of or maybe you could just have a rule where
• 1:24:47
  like you spend your movement for the turn catching up to another
• 1:24:49
  player. hmm, in terms of rules are like, all right, you have to
• 1:24:53
  make Some kind of check to pass the default.
• 1:24:59
  I think probably what you could do is have like a default
• 1:25:02
  Assumption of what the check might be but then be open to
• 1:25:05
  other possibilities, right? So like to throw the ball and
• 1:25:08
  pass, it might be the default assumption is Athletics check
• 1:25:12
  but if your big brain sorcerer, player explains how he uses Mage
• 1:25:15
  hand or some shit to do it, maybe have him make a spell
• 1:25:18
  attack roll to pass the ball, you know?
• 1:25:20
  I mean that's the kind of that I would leave it open.
• 1:25:23
  I would give like This is what you normally would be and then
• 1:25:26
  leave it open to other ideas because you want the creative
• 1:25:29
  because the thing is, right, you want the creative cinematic
• 1:25:33
  moment of like, I came up with a good idea.
• 1:25:35
  I'm gonna fucking rope-a-dope, a dude, you know, you want the
• 1:25:38
  moment where Harry flies up into the fucking clouds and goes all
• 1:25:42
  the way up and up and up and up, and up until he eventually
• 1:25:44
  catches the snitch, right? You wanted like an act that in
• 1:25:46
  some way like, you know, maybe Harry's making multiple checks.
• 1:25:50
  Maybe he throws a spell to like do it to like boost his maybe he
• 1:25:53
  cast Jesus. On his broom to try and catch up
• 1:25:56
  faster. You want to keep it broad so
• 1:26:00
  that you can have those creative ideas.
• 1:26:02
  But then the sort of cinematic flare part comes from, here's
• 1:26:06
  some suggested ways to player could overcome it, and then
• 1:26:09
  here's some other stuff. They could do.
• 1:26:11
  If they have a cool idea, you know, basically, what I'm saying
• 1:26:14
  is structure it like a fucking powered by the apocalypse move.
• 1:26:18
  Have them make the role have a couple of outcome possibilities
• 1:26:22
  from the role, you know? Okay.
• 1:26:24
  A big I mean, a big part of Power by the apocalypse games
• 1:26:26
  and everyone take another shot again.
• 1:26:28
  If you're not already dead, is the basic moves have when you
• 1:26:34
  roll them, have multiple things like underneath them, they like
• 1:26:38
  bullet points like, the actually Harold.
• 1:26:43
  Yeah, I'm also Best actually, I'll ask this because I'm, this
• 1:26:49
  is how I'm going to be running it normally in the book.
• 1:26:54
  They give me a set actually. So, normally in the book daily
• 1:26:57
  play this fucking game once, I'm not doing that.
• 1:27:00
  I know that's not multiple times.
• 1:27:02
  Absolutely should be multiple types.
• 1:27:04
  So, stupid in the book, how it's normally supposed to be round is
• 1:27:09
  they give you a set DC and that's it.
• 1:27:13
  Sandy see forever. Oh no.
• 1:27:15
  It's Gotta Be. It's gotta be exchanging DC.
• 1:27:17
  Absolutely. Well, so what I, what I'm doing
• 1:27:21
  at the moment, this might change, is I, or I have a, I
• 1:27:25
  have a bunch of NPC teams with various amounts of skills and
• 1:27:29
  abilities and stuff. Yeah, and I'm basically doing as
• 1:27:33
  contested attack a contested, you know, skill checks?
• 1:27:37
  Yeah. So absolutely because again, see
• 1:27:40
  this is the thing, right? Matt, you're teasing your teas.
• 1:27:43
  This little mini game out to make it a bigger moment, so
• 1:27:46
  adding more granularity like that make sense.
• 1:27:50
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:27:51
  I mean my player, like we've played, we've done a version,
• 1:27:54
  we've done three different versions of this each time
• 1:27:57
  trying to update it and make it better so that when I get to
• 1:28:00
  this, when we as a gaming group, get to the torrent the anime
• 1:28:05
  tournament Mage Tower tournament like we'll finally have a
• 1:28:09
  fucking game and everyone's on the same page because even right
• 1:28:12
  now after the third game, And we're like, all right.
• 1:28:14
  It's like 90% complete. We just need to tweak one or two
• 1:28:18
  things that I think will be good for the, you know, the
• 1:28:20
  tournament. I'm like, okay.
• 1:28:21
  All right. This is way better than yeah.
• 1:28:24
  We where we were. I beginning I think honestly For
• 1:28:29
  stuff like this. You need to think fiction, first
• 1:28:34
  not mechanics, first and IV, by default is mechanics first.
• 1:28:39
  I think you want to stay, you want to go?
• 1:28:40
  All right, what's the fictional thing?
• 1:28:42
  I'm trying to go for. Okay, this is what I'm going
• 1:28:45
  for. What is the mechanical reaction?
• 1:28:48
  This is the reaction. What is the fictional
• 1:28:50
  resolution? You know, so player says I cast
• 1:28:55
  grease on the floor so that my, my teammate with the All can try
• 1:28:59
  and like fucking ice skate around the enemy.
• 1:29:02
  All right. Cool, ucaas, grease.
• 1:29:03
  On the floor player with the ball.
• 1:29:05
  You have Advantage for this role give me an Ask robotics role as
• 1:29:08
  you try and fucking ice skate your way around.
• 1:29:10
  You know? I mean that's the kind of flow
• 1:29:13
  you want to have fictional thing throws Greece mechanical,
• 1:29:15
  resolution Advantage, fictional finish ice skates around while
• 1:29:20
  so mechanical roll plus Advantage fictional finish you
• 1:29:24
  manage to rope-a-dope the enemy all right you rope-a-dope around
• 1:29:28
  the enemy there now Confused as they're trying to turn around
• 1:29:30
  and catch up with you. What's your next move?
• 1:29:33
  And I mean that really like fiction be a mechanic resolution
• 1:29:38
  and like keep that kind of a snap flow and have a guideline
• 1:29:41
  of like generally if a player would like to pass a ball they
• 1:29:45
  make in athletics, check generally if a player would like
• 1:29:47
  to dodge a tackle, they make it acrobatics chick and then be
• 1:29:51
  open to I'd like suggestions. And if you want to like add a
• 1:29:57
  little bit more Are, you know, if you want to get a little bit
• 1:30:01
  more mathy on certain things because that's the kind of vibe
• 1:30:03
  five. He has you can but since you're
• 1:30:07
  already, you've already set up the opposing teams MPC stat,
• 1:30:11
  blocks your kind of already doing that.
• 1:30:13
  Anyway, if you kind of already done that step by setting up the
• 1:30:17
  enemy team. Probably fine.
• 1:30:19
  Yeah. And spoilers, not spoilers for
• 1:30:22
  my players but like each team is themed for different.
• 1:30:25
  Like maneuver thing they can do is that it's gonna be.
• 1:30:28
  That's a good idea like that. Yeah.
• 1:30:30
  Should I just keep thinking fucking blow?
• 1:30:31
  That's also side note back side. Oh yeah, that's absolutely.
• 1:30:35
  Cinematic as fuck, right? The fucking at the, I mean,
• 1:30:39
  that's a thing in the Sports Anime, right?
• 1:30:40
  Like. Oh, what's your cool fucking
• 1:30:42
  technique thing? I do this second crazy shit
• 1:30:46
  where I like jump off, everyone's head to dunk the
• 1:30:48
  basketball. You know.
• 1:30:49
  Like that's totally like the Cinematic Vibe of the of the
• 1:30:52
  sports competition Arc. Yeah yeah I mean I'm just like
• 1:30:58
  that. I just think about like boxing
• 1:30:59
  animated shit. Have my dick ulis this she was
• 1:31:02
  it was not an example I'm using against my players but Over to
• 1:31:05
  you. My saw was like yeah, it's just
• 1:31:07
  a bunch of like, you know, magicians and other magic
• 1:31:10
  casters that specifically, you know, do Earth Magic.
• 1:31:13
  Yeah. I'm some sort of.
• 1:31:14
  Uh, it's just like, what does that mean?
• 1:31:16
  It's like well, that guy does sand stuff.
• 1:31:18
  That guy literally just makes pillars of stones and knock the
• 1:31:20
  ball around all the time. This is the earth Elemental.
• 1:31:24
  It's the, it's the fucking, it's the pro-bending circuit, write
• 1:31:27
  it out. It's yeah, it's totally.
• 1:31:30
  I mean, I would think about to there's another game.
• 1:31:33
  I think only Isaiah has played, but Supergiant games pyre.
• 1:31:37
  It's just a yeah. Okay.
• 1:31:40
  I have only played Hades in terms of supergiant games.
• 1:31:43
  Okay, fair enough. So in pyre, you're basically
• 1:31:48
  playing magical fantasy Soccer to get out of Prison sort of and
• 1:31:56
  what the the girl with the big horns can take Devil horn.
• 1:32:00
  Yes. Yeah.
• 1:32:01
  Wise for pyre. Yeah.
• 1:32:04
  Like your horns are like way too big for your face Jody alone.
• 1:32:09
  I love her. Um so yes in peyer like your
• 1:32:13
  main crew doesn't have a theme because you know you're the main
• 1:32:17
  characters of course you get to be more diverse, right?
• 1:32:19
  But all the enemy teams you fight one. 21 team is Tree and
• 1:32:23
  dudes. Another team is big weird snake
• 1:32:25
  ladies. Another team is that all
• 1:32:27
  harpies. So it's like, yeah, that's
• 1:32:29
  totally a weird fiction trobe, not mad.
• 1:32:34
  I didn't do a team. That was The Secret Snake Club.
• 1:32:37
  So you want to just make them all you want to?
• 1:32:38
  Yeah, that'd be a good one damn hole.
• 1:32:41
  I got real from Canada. You know, it's funny to Mac
• 1:32:49
  because I remember a while ago, when you And the maids to our
• 1:32:53
  shit in strict Haven, I was like, oh that's a really like,
• 1:32:56
  that's a cool idea. And then I read that Sugar the
• 1:32:59
  rules and I was like it's that's it that's all you basically the
• 1:33:03
  fuck should the its capture the flag on a massive field but
• 1:33:08
  instead of flags, you're capturing animals.
• 1:33:11
  Yeah. The mascot creatures.
• 1:33:13
  It's just like what spells. It's just it's just really, it's
• 1:33:17
  sort of like what you're doing. Matt is absolutely what I would
• 1:33:20
  have been doing if I was writing this because I was so Like it's
• 1:33:23
  just really exemplified my frustration with 5e when I was
• 1:33:26
  like, oh this really cool idea that they have.
• 1:33:28
  That's right. Really evocative.
• 1:33:30
  And then I look at what they give you and I'm like oh you
• 1:33:32
  gave me basically nothing. Yeah.
• 1:33:35
  Okay. So it's so it went from being
• 1:33:37
  this fun vague and evocative idea to like, not very good
• 1:33:42
  cinematic design. And now just kind of like, okay
• 1:33:45
  and I know like I said, it takes the wind out of my sail.
• 1:33:49
  Yeah, I know, Jacob from xp's Level 3, he made a hole All
• 1:33:53
  strict saving video. And one of the things he
• 1:33:55
  specifically said of Street, you know, trick saving the main
• 1:33:57
  thing of the campaign is, is very roleplay, heavy.
• 1:34:00
  It is very roleplay heavy. No, it's just not, it's
• 1:34:02
  extremely Bare Bones, and I've had to add a lot of stuff to
• 1:34:05
  make it work and my players love it.
• 1:34:08
  But yeah, the the, like, the Mage Tower thing, like, again,
• 1:34:11
  I've had change it three separate times and still, it's
• 1:34:16
  not, like, I'm not 100% happy with it yet, so, but I think
• 1:34:19
  you're definitely your, yeah, your You're in the right brain
• 1:34:24
  space. So Yes.
• 1:34:28
  You know, the Crux of this whole look.
• 1:34:34
  It was a okay, hold on. I want to bring up.
• 1:34:37
  I want to bring up one more. I want to bring up an
• 1:34:39
  apocalypse. World example, that I like a lot
• 1:34:42
  and then I'm gonna, I'm gonna bounce off of it.
• 1:34:44
  I had more examples, but it's fine.
• 1:34:47
  So, one of the one of the Playbook snowpocalypse from,
• 1:34:51
  they books being basically classes is the gun lugger, and
• 1:34:55
  the Gun Locker is Is your is your Mad Max character.
• 1:34:59
  And when I say Mad Max, I mean the dude, they're the big
• 1:35:02
  badass. Their, the tough motherfucker.
• 1:35:05
  They're gonna beat everyone's ass, Nobody messes with them.
• 1:35:08
  You know, they're, that's kind of the gun luggers archetype.
• 1:35:10
  They also have a lot of guns, as you might imagine.
• 1:35:15
  No one of their moves is called not to be fucked with in all
• 1:35:20
  caps, hell of a lot and what the name says is, yeah boxes world
• 1:35:26
  does that a lot, they have another move called insano like
• 1:35:29
  Drano. But uh yeah one of them moves is
• 1:35:32
  called not to be fucked with. And what this says is in battle
• 1:35:37
  you count as a small gang with Harmon armor, according to your
• 1:35:41
  gear. What does that mean to count as
• 1:35:44
  a small game in the context of Apocalypse world?
• 1:35:48
  When you're fighting a group of dudes?
• 1:35:51
  If they're a bigger group than you are your armor and your harm
• 1:35:55
  which is to say you're damaged, go down by one point and one
• 1:35:59
  point is significant in Apocalypse world because
• 1:36:01
  everyone effectively has six health.
• 1:36:03
  So one point matters. So if you're one person and ten
• 1:36:09
  dudes, jump, you your armor and health are effectively down by
• 1:36:12
  one. The not to be fucked with
• 1:36:15
  ability means you count as up to 15 dudes.
• 1:36:21
  So if you're the Gun Locker and 15 guys, jump, you you can
• 1:36:26
  reasonably be and kill all of them.
• 1:36:30
  And it's not even hard. Like that's just a thing you
• 1:36:32
  could do, you basically need one, maybe two, good roles and
• 1:36:36
  you killed the whole gang. And I fucking, I love that
• 1:36:43
  ability, right? Because it's the ultimate
• 1:36:46
  fantasy of like, I'm the biggest badass in the room, you know,
• 1:36:50
  it's literally the scene, I guess again, minor spoilers.
• 1:36:54
  It's the scene in honor among Thieves, when holga picks up the
• 1:36:57
  brick and beats the shit out of six dudes with a brick.
• 1:37:01
  They don't like, that's literally what that is.
• 1:37:03
  It's like, oh yeah, she's the biggest baddest of the room.
• 1:37:05
  She's the cool fucking Barbarian.
• 1:37:06
  She could just go to clown town, on six guys, at Shit like that.
• 1:37:12
  I fucking love and you know, you could make the argument like,
• 1:37:15
  well rage, let you do that and it it does to degree it.
• 1:37:18
  Lets you do it in a very numerical, kind of fashion, but
• 1:37:21
  yeah, like it does sort of get the point across.
• 1:37:25
  It also depends on what six, dude, you're fighting and what
• 1:37:28
  level your Barbarian is and all this other shit, right?
• 1:37:30
  Which apocalypse world doesn't have levels or CR, anything like
• 1:37:34
  that. So it's a different, you know,
• 1:37:36
  totally different vibe, your Barbarian can absolutely Fight
• 1:37:41
  six commoners that level like five, for example, or six guards
• 1:37:44
  at level 5. No problem.
• 1:37:45
  For example, although I won't be very exciting, it'll be the
• 1:37:49
  guards, make a bunch of attacks, a barbarian makes a bunch of
• 1:37:51
  protects the cars like about it, is it?
• 1:37:52
  Yeah, but you can't do it. That's where you get into the
• 1:37:55
  descriptive realm to spice things up.
• 1:38:00
  Oh yeah, the not to be fucked with ability is like, it's just
• 1:38:06
  so good and I've seen it, I've seen it play out in game and in
• 1:38:09
  such like awesome ways. It also means when you're in A1
• 1:38:13
  V1, confrontation with someone as the gun lugger you will just
• 1:38:16
  absolutely clown that fool you know like you're just gonna beat
• 1:38:20
  the shit out of them. They have very little chance.
• 1:38:26
  But really the, what that about, what that move in the in
• 1:38:30
  apostles were really highlights for me.
• 1:38:33
  Is the idea of have this idea and this is the big Crux, right?
• 1:38:38
  I have this idea in my head, I should be able to do this.
• 1:38:42
  This is the cool Concept in my brain.
• 1:38:44
  You know, if I'm the fucking, if I'm the fighter, I should be
• 1:38:49
  able to charge the dragon and then you open up the rule book
• 1:38:53
  and you read this move or disability or the spell, or this
• 1:38:58
  power or whatever, and you go. Yeah, that's exactly what I was
• 1:39:01
  thinking. Now, it is represented and now
• 1:39:04
  I'm way more excited to play. You know, if I'm playing the
• 1:39:07
  cleric and I'm like, man, it'd be sick if I could like some in
• 1:39:10
  my God and then you read divine intervention and you go, oh,
• 1:39:12
  let's fucking go, I'm playing a cleric, it's gonna be lit, and
• 1:39:16
  then you get sad, because only 10% chance, but that's beside
• 1:39:18
  the point. Um, it's like that.
• 1:39:24
  That whole thing that is literally the thing for me
• 1:39:28
  personally. That is the thing that made me
• 1:39:31
  like really get into tabletop. Is having an idea about like a
• 1:39:38
  certain kind of fantasy of a character class of a story of a
• 1:39:45
  whatever. And then finding the game that
• 1:39:49
  perfectly fits what I need and being like yes. it's a beautiful
• 1:39:54
  marriage and that's why that's why I personally doing the thing
• 1:40:02
  where you're like, oh well just, you know, hack 5e to do whatever
• 1:40:05
  you want. That's the real reason I don't
• 1:40:07
  like doing that is because I want that marriage to be easy
• 1:40:12
  and seamless. I don't want to have to like
• 1:40:14
  fight for it. You know what I mean?
• 1:40:16
  And I know a lot of people are going to disagree with be like,
• 1:40:18
  no, just fucking do it for it. Like you just be lazy, like,
• 1:40:21
  whatever. It's like when I said, you know,
• 1:40:27
  Oh, I really want to play a game that feels like peaky, blinders.
• 1:40:31
  And then I looked at blades in the dark and when ah it's peaky
• 1:40:35
  blinders with some fantasy bullshit.
• 1:40:38
  I'm in. It's such a like just gets me so
• 1:40:42
  excited to play. You know what I mean?
• 1:40:45
  I mean actually I mean shit I don't know Sam maybe I just
• 1:40:50
  didn't remember when we were getting into Souls, a steel that
• 1:40:52
  you kind of were on a similar wave length with that game,
• 1:40:55
  right? Absolutely that game really
• 1:40:58
  evokes. So many good ideas, Shane wasn't
• 1:41:00
  finished it I'm fine. All right but just I think the
• 1:41:06
  word of the big things is that it's like at least with like the
• 1:41:11
  back creation aspect. It allowed you to, obviously
• 1:41:17
  there's some diem intervention but it allowed you the player to
• 1:41:20
  decide what your strengths and weaknesses are yeah, versus, you
• 1:41:25
  know, oh, hey player. This is the class.
• 1:41:32
  This is how it works, have fun. Yeah and it being very specific
• 1:41:37
  and it's like okay you know, having the ability to make a
• 1:41:44
  Mech and it's just like okay you know, I can do all this cool
• 1:41:47
  shit but because I can I have this - where it directly affects
• 1:41:52
  the playstyle of me and I'm deciding it not the designer so
• 1:41:59
  that definitely makes it feel way more anime.
• 1:42:03
  Yes it is. Game felt very out of it for
• 1:42:05
  sure. I mean we literally had what
• 1:42:07
  like rise and mattin I guess been listening.
• 1:42:11
  We literally had a player. Her neck was like a like made of
• 1:42:17
  like a liquid metal essentially so she could like amorphous blob
• 1:42:21
  like between tight spaces and shit with the big fucking robot.
• 1:42:25
  Like it was, it had somebody like good little moments.
• 1:42:28
  I forget exactly what the downside was.
• 1:42:30
  I want to say she was like more vulnerable, something like that.
• 1:42:33
  But they were more vulnerable to fire.
• 1:42:35
  I believe some kind of yes, more vulnerable to get something a
• 1:42:38
  lot less armor or something like that.
• 1:42:40
  But it was like, I got such a good little like, oh yeah.
• 1:42:45
  Delish Josh, you just thank you. You just gave me the idea.
• 1:42:49
  I finally have my idea for my plasmid character.
• 1:42:52
  Oh my God, he's Barbarian plasmid character.
• 1:42:55
  And then when they transform the Beast modes, there are just, you
• 1:42:58
  know, slime person who gets fur covering their entire product I
• 1:43:02
  So I was just a liquid slimeball.
• 1:43:04
  How dinner? How did anything?
• 1:43:06
  I say? Invoke that.
• 1:43:08
  Thank you. I.
• 1:43:09
  What are you? Okay, okay, now I don't know how
• 1:43:20
  I invokes that other than the Slime by relation.
• 1:43:22
  But okay, like I'm I have no problems with this.
• 1:43:27
  It's a great idea met but like I like also like just like How
• 1:43:33
  did, how did the forget it to this?
• 1:43:36
  Yeah, I, yeah. Okay.
• 1:43:40
  All right, cool. Just happens by happens.
• 1:43:46
  Fine. I have to let it happen.
• 1:43:50
  I can't stop it. It's here.
• 1:43:52
  Anyone. Anyone got anything?
• 1:43:55
  That's like to add or ask her throw in some cook?
• 1:44:03
  Matt, I'm not letting Mike. Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:44:07
  I've never tasted. That's cooking.
• 1:44:10
  Listen, I that was a bad joke. I'm I'm ashamed to admit, but I
• 1:44:13
  can almost accessorize it was so good.
• 1:44:16
  I can only cook breakfast foods. I'm sorry.
• 1:44:19
  All right, I'm a Brenner kind of guy.
• 1:44:20
  It's all never mind. Never mind.
• 1:44:24
  Nope, not, that's me. That's all I'm saying.
• 1:44:30
  Somebody, somebody take us somewhere else.
• 1:44:33
  No, fuck. All right.
• 1:44:38
  Well I don't know if I have any as per usual.
• 1:44:43
  You know, I don't know if I don't think I have any other.
• 1:44:45
  I mean I have a couple other examples but it's fine.
• 1:44:49
  I need to hammer the one with Yeah, Dee.
• 1:44:53
  I'm going for. Yeah, I was just, I was
• 1:45:01
  thinking, I was like, damn, I didn't think I derailed that
• 1:45:04
  hard. Holy, no, no, you did it.
• 1:45:05
  You did it. It's just as I was talking
• 1:45:08
  about. Take pride.
• 1:45:09
  It wasn't it wasn't the derailleurs.
• 1:45:11
  Like, as I was talking, another idea, just like slapped into my
• 1:45:15
  brain. I was like, that's to my heart
• 1:45:16
  going down to people. Well, I think, if I go on to
• 1:45:18
  that one because I was just sort of thinking about was like, all
• 1:45:20
  right, what kind of shit would I do?
• 1:45:21
  If I really wanted to like, pump up the Cinematic Vibe 5e and I
• 1:45:26
  was like, I can't Suit to deeper rabbit hole.
• 1:45:29
  Do we do rather? Um, yeah, I don't know.
• 1:45:34
  I guess, you know, when when particular, you know, because
• 1:45:40
  most people are going to are going to home brew their games
• 1:45:43
  at some point, I think the real takeaway from me suddenly,
• 1:45:47
  Somebody other games, and from listening to people who do
• 1:45:51
  design and excetera Etc, and from Reading other people's
• 1:45:54
  home, brew, Jutsu is like, for me the way that you really get
• 1:45:59
  the best cinematic Vibe, where you really get that tone is
• 1:46:05
  thinking about what that core fantasy, what?
• 1:46:08
  That core idea is and how you can use any kind of mechanics
• 1:46:14
  that are present to sort of boost it up, you know?
• 1:46:17
  That idea of spell, slots going into Divine Smite and how that
• 1:46:22
  sort of mechanically reinforces the idea that the smites are
• 1:46:26
  magically fueled. You know, stuff like that.
• 1:46:30
  And and all this being said, if you just want to play like a war
• 1:46:35
  game style game and like you can throw all this out the window
• 1:46:39
  and just crunch the numbers. And I mean, like if you just
• 1:46:41
  want to Crunch those numbers and crunch those numbers but I I
• 1:46:47
  think I've asked this before because I know you like do you
• 1:46:51
  play theater to the mine that much in your games or do you
• 1:46:54
  know like yeah I don't have you so ride like yeah because maybe
• 1:47:00
  because I know like dinner to mind that a lot of people end up
• 1:47:02
  doing that because they like they don't like the Tactical
• 1:47:05
  grid of the map and I feel that fear the Mind might end up being
• 1:47:09
  more cinematic just because of that.
• 1:47:13
  Everyone's using their imaginations but you know
• 1:47:15
  there's no there's no battle map.
• 1:47:17
  You just what are literally looking at the monsters.
• 1:47:19
  Yeah. Your tokens or minis or whatever
• 1:47:21
  the fuck so Jeffrey was just describing shit.
• 1:47:24
  Yes that is absolutely true but and yes you're kind of right on
• 1:47:27
  the right track that's kind of what me and Sam were talking
• 1:47:29
  about with the sort of not using group based system and how that
• 1:47:32
  can feel like more evocative of the Cinematic feel for us.
• 1:47:37
  But the reason I don't use theater, the mind is There's a
• 1:47:44
  there's a couple of reasons. The main thing is because the
• 1:47:48
  game is not designed with that premise in mind, that
• 1:47:53
  immediately means. Okay, I have to do have to make
• 1:47:58
  concessions, I have to do some retooling, I'm going to run into
• 1:48:02
  frustrations, I'm gonna have to make Paul's that that the game
• 1:48:06
  is not going to help me in any way with, you know, I have to
• 1:48:09
  deal with the fact that the game was not designed in that
• 1:48:13
  fashion, I'm doing something different.
• 1:48:14
  So now that marriage I'm talking about has broken, that's the
• 1:48:18
  first thing. And that's probably the main
• 1:48:21
  reason for me personally, you know, ogm.
• 1:48:23
  I would like to throw the fireball down the hall.
• 1:48:26
  Okay, cool. You're gonna hit your friend and
• 1:48:29
  you're going to hit the to the two, Zombies 3 Zombies.
• 1:48:34
  Well GM. What if, what if I do it like
• 1:48:36
  this and curve it around or the friends, like, what if I move
• 1:48:39
  back a little? It's like, okay now we're having
• 1:48:41
  this little sort of back and forth discussion and you could
• 1:48:45
  do it. But the game wants you to just
• 1:48:48
  be like, is the is the phalli, in the AOE they get hit?
• 1:48:52
  Is he a line on the air with they don't get hit on the, you
• 1:48:54
  know, on the map. The other thing is, you know,
• 1:49:01
  when people sit down to play a game and if a presuming, they've
• 1:49:05
  read the game and you haven't just like randomly thrown them
• 1:49:08
  into it, They probably have some you know they have some Notions
• 1:49:14
  about how the game is going to go.
• 1:49:15
  They want it to feel a certain way, if somebody's red VY V,
• 1:49:19
  they're probably going to well maybe not five feet maybe five,
• 1:49:22
  he's a bad example because 5V doesn't explain this very well
• 1:49:25
  but no people expecially, if you're playing that kind of
• 1:49:30
  game, you kind of expect the Tactical battle grid map, you
• 1:49:32
  know, that's like part of the vibe and if you're playing that
• 1:49:35
  game, presumably, you want that? So I don't I'm not trying to
• 1:49:39
  like Take that away, you know what I mean?
• 1:49:42
  Like, I say it was saying likes using the grid map if we saw all
• 1:49:46
  signed up to play 5e and then we sat down session one.
• 1:49:48
  And I go, by the way, we're doing literally everything in
• 1:49:51
  theater of the Mind as I had probably been like, oh well,
• 1:49:54
  that's all right. Let's little annoying.
• 1:49:56
  You know what I mean? So it's kind of like, it's like
• 1:49:59
  a combination of things but but fighting with the rules is the
• 1:50:04
  big one for me and and trying to, and you can design your own
• 1:50:07
  sort of subsystems to deal with it.
• 1:50:12
  But like, I don't want to necessarily and I don't even
• 1:50:18
  hate them. Honestly, here's the thing, I
• 1:50:20
  don't hate the grid map like tactical combat stuff
• 1:50:23
  necessarily I find it more laborious and I find It.
• 1:50:29
  I find I find it more tiring, for sure.
• 1:50:32
  Like I get tired of it quicker for sure.
• 1:50:36
  They don't hate it. No.
• 1:50:38
  I agreed to run 5e. I knew that I was going to be
• 1:50:41
  doing that. You know what I mean?
• 1:50:42
  Like, it's not like I made that decision without knowing.
• 1:50:45
  There's just sort of now different games, different
• 1:50:49
  Vibes, I would. You know what I would love
• 1:50:51
  though? I would love it.
• 1:50:53
  If Wizards made a little supplemental book, that sort of
• 1:50:58
  Retooled everything into a theater of the Mind system.
• 1:51:01
  That'd be cool. I'd be into that and they didn't
• 1:51:03
  have a little tiny bit, the DMG, but I wasn't very satisfied with
• 1:51:07
  it felt kind of like you tried. It's so weird because most of
• 1:51:11
  the people in was of the coast have said that we play theater
• 1:51:14
  the mine, but the rules that they give aren't the full rules
• 1:51:18
  of contacts that the Wizards use.
• 1:51:20
  I don't know people like, you know, Sly flourish.
• 1:51:23
  I've shown you guys like he made an updated like way more
• 1:51:26
  detailed version of the year, the mine Rules that help a lot
• 1:51:29
  of people out, but most 5e people want official, like,
• 1:51:34
  better theater. The Mind rules to use to help
• 1:51:37
  them. Yeah.
• 1:51:38
  Because Wizards and witches, that kind of admitted this in
• 1:51:41
  the last couple weeks that there is stuff that they use in house
• 1:51:45
  that they did not put into their printed books for some fucking
• 1:51:48
  reason that would help people run their game way better.
• 1:51:51
  They're weird. It is weird.
• 1:51:53
  It's like like the monsters like their their monster system what
• 1:51:57
  they've printed. Out in DMG what they printed out
• 1:52:00
  in Santa, this guide is not all the things that they use in
• 1:52:05
  house when determining monster CR.
• 1:52:08
  And it's and just recently, discovering, this is like why
• 1:52:12
  you would make our lives so much better.
• 1:52:15
  Why are you not doing these things?
• 1:52:16
  Is what the fuck? Yeah, likewise so separate the
• 1:52:21
  Mind players to do thing. I, yeah, it's like the like a
• 1:52:25
  natural update which Chris Perkins has mentioned up there
• 1:52:28
  doing the - yeah, they're going to do like the wizard.
• 1:52:31
  They're basically saying, like, all the stuff that they've been,
• 1:52:34
  I don't even want to say hiding or withholding have Stuff that I
• 1:52:38
  didn't put in the 2014 books. Yeah, they're going to update
• 1:52:42
  and make better and one of those has been theater, the mine
• 1:52:46
  they're going to you know Mars Perkins has said he's going to
• 1:52:49
  teach you how to actually do it. I I hope I hope I hope there's
• 1:52:53
  are solid rules and don't feel kind of edgy but you know so
• 1:52:59
  yeah but that's an interesting. I mean that's exciting I think
• 1:53:02
  because you know and maybe maybe maybe I'm wrong but the And this
• 1:53:08
  is sort of a different topic but it's within the same row.
• 1:53:12
  Maybe this, honestly, I now think about this could be an
• 1:53:14
  episode topic potentially, but like, I feel like the vibe I've
• 1:53:21
  gotten from most people most table top players.
• 1:53:25
  Most people don't really want the grid map battle system.
• 1:53:31
  I feel like the majority of people are kinda over that And
• 1:53:36
  the reason that it's in the game still and is in a lot of games
• 1:53:40
  still is a lot of it. I think is because of just
• 1:53:43
  Legacy, you know, and history, I mean with 5V in particular,
• 1:53:47
  there's a lot of things in 5e that literally designers have
• 1:53:51
  said. The only reason we kept us in
• 1:53:52
  the game as for the Legacy and the brand, right?
• 1:53:54
  You know what I mean? Like, Fireball is in the game
• 1:53:57
  and it's overpowered because of the brand, they still use a D20
• 1:54:01
  because of the brand. It's the thing, it's what you
• 1:54:04
  do, you know? I mean there's certain things
• 1:54:05
  they You know, the equipment table, which people have, I
• 1:54:08
  mean, us included have lambasted for a long time for being
• 1:54:13
  totally pointless, but it's part of the sort of legacy of D&D.
• 1:54:16
  It's like, yeah, the equipment table has always been there
• 1:54:20
  because it used to be more important and I think I think
• 1:54:25
  again I could be wrong but I feel like the temperature gauge
• 1:54:28
  I'm getting on the situation people are sorta over the grid
• 1:54:31
  map you know? Hey maybe because I don't like I
• 1:54:35
  said I don't, I feel like I don't see it, but maybe it's
• 1:54:39
  just because like, again, most of the, my table experience is
• 1:54:42
  through digital stuff like roll20 where it is, mostly very
• 1:54:47
  good base and certain like certain other virtual table
• 1:54:51
  tops, like, what's the long fever fancy grounds, where they
• 1:54:55
  try? And they treat it more like a
• 1:54:56
  video game. Yeah.
• 1:54:57
  Which obviously there's some people like I don't, I don't
• 1:55:00
  think virtually are not matters though, because you could very
• 1:55:03
  easily just not play on the grid map on on a vtt and I mean I've
• 1:55:09
  done a bunch like it's not, you know, I don't think that you
• 1:55:12
  saying I don't know. I mean like I feel like I yeah,
• 1:55:17
  I don't know. Maybe it's just I'm not hearing
• 1:55:19
  it from the circles. I mean, the fact that he died.
• 1:55:22
  I'm you know, partaken, well, I mean the fact that this slide
• 1:55:26
  flourishing or talking about exist and the fact that the the
• 1:55:28
  width w e staff, you see there are the mind I think that's
• 1:55:32
  pretty telling. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, I
• 1:55:35
  guess out of your item carrot like I I lean more away from
• 1:55:40
  using a grid system. I prefer that less I Think Sam
• 1:55:44
  you're on the same boat as me. Yeah, I think it depends on the
• 1:55:48
  game. Like that's a weird ass
• 1:55:50
  designed. No, no.
• 1:55:53
  So I do prefer it when I am trying to make something
• 1:55:58
  cinematic happen because like playing D&D, you know, sure it
• 1:56:04
  can be used for that but like, it doesn't, it woke the same
• 1:56:10
  like image as playing something like Souls of Steel has with me,
• 1:56:16
  you know. So if I'm looking to be very you
• 1:56:20
  know, cinematic with my approach to my character or whatever.
• 1:56:24
  Yeah, I prefer to not have the grid system.
• 1:56:27
  I don't care then like I'll live I guess is what I'm trying to
• 1:56:35
  say well I guess. Let's put it this way.
• 1:56:37
  If there's a game you really like and the game has a system
• 1:56:40
  for both which one Probably depends on the rules of the game
• 1:56:45
  because like Dandy technically does I would prefer a grid
• 1:56:48
  system in that case but like if we're not talking.
• 1:56:50
  Yeah. So this has a range of 60 feet
• 1:56:54
  and it's a 30-foot blast radius and this like I don't care then,
• 1:56:59
  but if it's TNT system where it's like, yeah, you know, you
• 1:57:04
  have this, this this and I'm going to be like a buddy.
• 1:57:06
  Can I just well, I mean, I'm the, the premise I'm saying is
• 1:57:11
  assuming that That the game built up both systems, kind of
• 1:57:14
  equally as D&D sort of tacked on the theater of the Mind rules a
• 1:57:17
  little bit. We are down the road, probably
• 1:57:18
  theater of the Mind. Isaiah, Matt, where he treating
• 1:57:22
  fall. I mean, I also sort of sit on
• 1:57:24
  the fence but I would probably say theater of the mind.
• 1:57:27
  Oh, really. Okay, I'm surprised.
• 1:57:28
  I thought you were going to say, no, I do me wrong.
• 1:57:31
  I like grid based combat. I've no problems with it. but,
• 1:57:39
  it don't know because like when I would like, I have a habit of
• 1:57:49
  big braining plans. And if I don't have a grid, it's
• 1:57:53
  harder for you to do that. It's harder for me to sort of
• 1:57:55
  make well breathless doesn't mean mapless think that's
• 1:58:00
  important distinction. You can listen but like, so you
• 1:58:04
  lose out on things like positioning without a grid but
• 1:58:08
  you cannot map. Well, so that level of like
• 1:58:11
  concrete positioning. So, here's the thing though.
• 1:58:14
  Not necessarily because a lot of the time what ends up happening?
• 1:58:16
  I mean, we literally when we played Star Wars, this was a
• 1:58:18
  case. Like you don't have a grid for
• 1:58:23
  positioning but often you know it'd be like alright.
• 1:58:25
  Can you like throw down a map and show us where we're at?
• 1:58:28
  Yeah, everyone everyone's here here and here, you know like you
• 1:58:30
  could do positioning in that sense.
• 1:58:32
  So you could it, it's very basic.
• 1:58:34
  That's why I said you lose a level of like a sure anise, you
• 1:58:38
  can literally say, okay, I'm gonna put this character here
• 1:58:41
  because literally nothing can get past them.
• 1:58:43
  I can put these two characters behind with start slinging
• 1:58:45
  things and providing cover, I can have this character.
• 1:58:47
  Go around the side of this. I enjoy that level of strategic
• 1:58:51
  thinking, I mean so maybe I like grid-based more.
• 1:58:55
  Yeah yeah yeah. I mean I will say this.
• 1:58:58
  I definitely I'll say for sure if I'm Jia Ming. 100% grid
• 1:59:04
  lists. I prefer if I'm a player, I'm
• 1:59:07
  more inclined to be okay with the grid but that's because
• 1:59:09
  we're new Jia Ming on. You have more bullshit to deal
• 1:59:11
  with my dude. Surprise surprise.
• 1:59:14
  Hmm. But even then when I'm Dreaming
• 1:59:19
  I don't like I don't like when I feel like combat is just a okay
• 1:59:27
  then you do this and then you do this there's a level of like if
• 1:59:31
  I'm if I'm having things attack my Players.
• 1:59:34
  I will often put my enemies informations so the players go
• 1:59:38
  oh shit. They're actually thinking
• 1:59:40
  strategically which makes them think strategically, you know
• 1:59:44
  and I think again you you lose a level of that with bird list or
• 1:59:48
  purely theater of the Mind combat, I've done some cool
• 1:59:50
  stuff. I've stayed in the one where
• 1:59:52
  like we were we were camping around a massive oak tree and my
• 1:59:55
  character was everyone it's called suspended camping.
• 2:00:01
  When you like sleep in the So I could rain down health and
• 2:00:05
  people with my musket up in the tree and provide cover.
• 2:00:09
  And that was cool. But it always felt like I wish I
• 2:00:13
  could literally see how things are playing out.
• 2:00:17
  Hmm. That didn't have to.
• 2:00:19
  I didn't have to constantly ask the GM.
• 2:00:22
  Okay, who's where? What's where, who's being
• 2:00:24
  attacked? By?
• 2:00:24
  What I could just see it. Well, okay, either that Stan.
• 2:00:28
  What's going on? I mean, part of that is, is
• 2:00:32
  having Practice. It's doing a theater of the Mind
• 2:00:37
  system because get better at being clear about that are often
• 2:00:45
  not say yeah, you better try to feel like you're being a little
• 2:00:48
  on the blue little to Binary about it.
• 2:00:50
  Like one is capable of this and one is not capable of this.
• 2:00:54
  Well it's one has a map that you can then it one has as very
• 2:00:59
  strict parameters that it follows the other one's a little
• 2:01:04
  more loose. So you're going to have a more
• 2:01:08
  detailed. Understanding of a map if you
• 2:01:10
  can see the map and you have a guaranteed understanding of what
• 2:01:13
  a distance is. Yes.
• 2:01:14
  But if a game is designed with the intention of not using some,
• 2:01:20
  it's usually designed in such a fashion that you don't need to
• 2:01:23
  worry about those specifics as much.
• 2:01:26
  Like they are not part of like if nothing is described in
• 2:01:29
  specific foot increments than you don't need to worry about
• 2:01:32
  measuring specific foot increments.
• 2:01:34
  I mean if it's just measured in like near far farther know I
• 2:01:38
  don't but I like it. It?
• 2:01:39
  That's, that's the thing I enjoy doing that.
• 2:01:41
  I find that fun. Where do you fall?
• 2:01:48
  Um grid because I can always make the grid more cinematic
• 2:01:51
  just threw my descriptions or you know getting a nice bright
• 2:01:55
  colorful map in the players. Can you know be like hey is that
• 2:01:59
  coin actually on the table? Yeah, sure why not.
• 2:02:02
  Alright, cool. I grab the coin.
• 2:02:03
  And I flick it at the guys eyeball, like, I guess you don't
• 2:02:06
  jerk when I get low grip list. Doesn't mean mapless.
• 2:02:10
  I feel like you guys are assuming no mat like it.
• 2:02:12
  You can still have a map. You're just not you're just not
• 2:02:16
  moving everything in specific 5 foot increments or whatever,
• 2:02:20
  extinct Ramones I guess it's I don't know.
• 2:02:22
  I don't feel like the 50-foot increments are that Bad.
• 2:02:26
  Like I'm saying no I'm not saying bad about it that way,
• 2:02:29
  what I'm saying is like you can do a system that's not a grid
• 2:02:33
  based system and have like zones.
• 2:02:35
  For example as a really in between our it's like you
• 2:02:39
  players are in zone. One bad guys are in zone, 2
• 2:02:41
  zone, three is the area Beyond them, you know.
• 2:02:45
  Like again that's why I'm saying like grid lessons is not
• 2:02:48
  mapless, you can still have a lot of that.
• 2:02:52
  Well so how about this for an analogy?
• 2:02:55
  Cordless system plays, and let me follow this.
• 2:02:58
  The end, a guerrilla system plays kind of like Megaman
• 2:03:01
  Battle Network. There is a level of strategic
• 2:03:02
  positioning that you can do, and that is useful and like, on some
• 2:03:06
  of the you need, but a game, like, Fire Emblem, you have far
• 2:03:09
  more my new control of what's going on.
• 2:03:12
  I prefer the fire and gold approach.
• 2:03:15
  I haven't played this game so I can't really refuse.
• 2:03:17
  Yeah. I or back by that statement that
• 2:03:20
  that that's, that's a, that's a fairly decent way of saying it,
• 2:03:25
  I do think. However, Sam says that make
• 2:03:27
  sense so I'll have to trust by like it's closed.
• 2:03:35
  I think it's just hard to put that into a video game format
• 2:03:37
  because inherently video games are binary binary with like a
• 2:03:43
  grid system. Aye, aye.
• 2:03:47
  Yeah, I would say it's Oh God. I can't give a video game
• 2:03:54
  analogy for that but yes. Like there's there's less
• 2:03:57
  control over where your character is.
• 2:04:00
  People are actually, it'd be better to say.
• 2:04:01
  It's like a character action games, but turn-based, which,
• 2:04:08
  you know, doesn't help, but we going to do.
• 2:04:13
  I could I could. Our did this because now my
• 2:04:18
  ideas floating in my head will cut it off here.
• 2:04:20
  What kind what kind of nothing. Mmm.
• 2:04:22
  I'll have to will, maybe have to re particular this particular
• 2:04:28
  topic that is come up now. No promises but you know, baby.
• 2:04:33
  All right. Anyway, this has been us, we
• 2:04:37
  have done the thing. I forgot to do this in the
• 2:04:40
  beginning, but please follow us on Twitter.
• 2:04:43
  It follows subscribe on your podcast platform of choice and
• 2:04:46
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• 2:04:48
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• 2:04:50
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• 2:04:54
  Aruba.