Latest / The Christian Reeve Podcast / Gregory Diehl | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #133 |

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Gregory Diehl | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #133 | · The Christian Reeve Podcast

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome to another episode of the Christian Reef
• 0:03
  podcast. Today's guest is an independent
• 0:06
  author, a publisher and Amazon bestseller all the way from the
• 0:09
  US. His name is Gregory deal,
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  welcome to the show. How you doing.
• 0:13
  Hi Christian. Thanks for having me.
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  It's a pleasure to have you on the show.
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  That's let's just jump straight to the to the beginning of your
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  story. I'd like to get to know a bit
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  more about you other than, I've done my research but you know,
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  in your own words, can you talk us through the story of How you
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  became a publisher? Well, I became a publisher
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  Pinterest, becoming an author and they became an author by
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  first getting ripped off by another publisher.
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  It's a very weird stupid story that could have turned out very
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  badly for me, but she stole five thousand dollars from me to help
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  me. Prepare, what was going to be my
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  first book a business book called brand identity
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  breakthrough. Just kind of like a combination
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  of professional experience. I had in the world of sales and
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  branding his woman said, she could help me publish it and you
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  know, make a name For myself and get my message out there and
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  she's really didn't know what she was doing and was just
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  bluffing her way through it and ran away with my money short
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  version of it. But as a result of that
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  experience, we had started the process and made put together
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  like an outline of what the book was going to be.
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  And she done some interviewing with me to start to form the
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  content of what the chapters is going to be.
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  And so after that happened, I said, well I can just walk away
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  from this and cut my losses or I can try to finish.
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  What this woman said she would do for me, since at least I've
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  started the process and I mean, I do know a bit about things,
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  like, sales and marketing and so sure why not?
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  I'll write a book. What's the worst that can
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  happen? And so, I finished the book on
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  my own, it's sold pretty well. All things considered and, and
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  it continues to sell even now, five years, seven years, almost
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  seven years later, six years later, it was in 2016.
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  Yeah. So it's continues to sell now
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  and I've written several other books since On topics, like
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  personal development and travel and education.
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  I'm actually the one I'm working on now is kind of like, A
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  prequel /, follow-up to Brand identity breakthrough.
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  It's about post-soviet, mentalities of Entrepreneurship
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  because I live in Armenia. Now a post-soviet country.
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  Okay, so the book is about comparing how Americans and
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  westerners think about Business and Entrepreneurship versus how
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  people who are recovering 30 years after the collapse of the
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  Soviet Union and communism. We just have totally different
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  World Views about the most basic things are to me.
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  It's really fascinating to compare how people who are in
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  many ways. Louder and more capable than me,
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  in many areas of life. Don't see things that I consider
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  to be obvious about how they could be applying their skills
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  or optimizing their productivity or things like that.
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  So, that, that will be done really soon.
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  It's actually basically already written.
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  Excellent. Excellent.
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  Yeah, I've got that in my notes here.
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  So I'm just kind of like familiarizing myself because
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  just, for those who don't know, I literally came off the back of
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  what we're doing today. So, my head isn't even in
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  podcast mode, I'm set up, but I'm like, ahh.
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  Now, let's go. Oh God.
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  And I always prepare, I always have like a list of questions
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  and notes about my guests and I was like uh the author guy.
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  And now I'm going to add some of my.
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  Yes, that's right. So yeah, your region originally
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  from Armenia. Your Armenian is that correct?
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  I'm from California. My grandmother was Armenian
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  which makes me quarter obedient I moved.
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  I got citizenship here first about five years ago and then I
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  moved here about three years ago to it to an old house in a
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  village. And, as a publisher now, I just
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  Finished working on a book about Armenians written by a
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  journalist named Ash can cut out of Killian who interviewed
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  Armenians, who were captured and tortured by the army of
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  Azerbaijan during a war. That happened last year, over
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  disputed Territory called nagorno-karabakh.
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  It doesn't really get nearly as much press as it showed up,
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  which is really weird. Considering that Ukraine was
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  just invaded by Russia and like everyone's talking about that
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  and all the Armenians are like well.
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  Where was everyone when we were attacked by Azerbaijan.
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  Ayora go, right? Like so it's just very
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  interesting to watch from the perspective on the ground here.
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  So I used my experience in publishing to help her get this
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  book. She had written of interviews
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  about people who've been tortured and just awful things
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  Behind Enemy Lines and Azerbaijan.
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  And so that's that's an example of the kind of book.
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  I'm really interested in working on, not necessarily just
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  whatever the latest trendy, you know, self-help guide, or 10
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  It's to boost your business or whatever, but books that have
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  important messages, that probably would not get seen or
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  even have the opportunity to out there.
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  If somebody, who didn't know what they were doing with
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  publishing, didn't come along and help them take on the
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  appearance in form of a real book.
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  So that's interesting. So you'll kind of you are kind
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  of niche in that respect as a publisher than the you.
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  You're not just going to publish anything.
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  You're going to look for those stories that you want to
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  communicate to the world and try and help those people that
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  really deserve that chance to tell their story.
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  Like that's yeah, yeah, it's been hard to nail down.
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  I ended up coming up a couple years ago, I wrote my only guide
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  to self-publishing and I had a lot of trouble with how to
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  differentiate this book from the thousands of other books about
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  self-publishing. And so, the subtitle I came With
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  was how and why to write publish and sell non-fiction books that
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  matter in that that's kind of the niche.
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  The differentiation I wanted to go for as a publisher is books
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  that will somehow change the way people think, or change our
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  general knowledge of the world, you know, not just whatever new
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  generic something Sub-Q wants to put out there which isn't insult
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  all self-published authors but you know really important
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  messages. So what's jewelry?
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  Kind of decision making process behind working with a particular
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  up-and-coming author, like what what kind of is there like a
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  checklist? Is there certain things that
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  you're like, okay, they have to meet this criteria or they need
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  to be, I don't know. How do you judge that?
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  Like what's your decision making process with regards to that?
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  I basically just need to see the value in what they're writing.
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  Okay. And and generally it needs.
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  I'm more attracted to it. If I think it's the kind of
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  thing other people, other Publishers are other people in
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  the space. Wouldn't necessarily see the
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  value of but that I see. Wow.
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  Okay. Yes, that's.
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  That's something that needs to get out there.
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  I will feel good about the work required to turn that into a
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  book and make it visible to people.
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  Okay. And Other any other kind of
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  things that you judge, as far as, like, what, like, what
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  determines I guess, what I'm asking is, what time is the
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  actual value in your mind? Because one could make the
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  argument that, okay, with certain things, you know, you're
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  not necessarily looking at it like, oh, this is going to make
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  millions of dollars or whatever you're looking at it, like,
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  okay, what's the the value here? Is this telling, is this
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  revealing history, that's otherwise, not known or is this
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  going to lead to major changes? As in, I don't know, culture
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  legislation whatever, like what explain to me the value, or how
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  you measure the value, what the determining factors behind that
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  value and then how you sort of come to your decision when you
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  actually take on those those authors?
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  I think it needs to be something that is very niche in its appeal
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  either because of what it's talking about or the tone it
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  takes for talking about them, which I think applies to all the
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  books. I write to consistent feedback,
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  I've gotten since I started writing and much more.
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  Now since I'm not much more experienced rider is, people
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  either love the way I write or they don't understand it at all.
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  I don't know why. I can be very verbose and very
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  worthy and some people saw you sound like, you're always trying
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  to sound smart and I have to Explain to him.
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  This is how I naturally think know this is the most direct way
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  for me to translate my thoughts onto the page.
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  It would be harder for me to try to sound, not smart, or like a
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  normal person or whatever description to want to use.
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  And so in, sometimes, I just read about things like business,
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  but sometimes I write about really heady philosophical
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  personal development, stuff that, and I try to frame them in
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  such a way that it's clear. This is not a book that you
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  should just pick up, you know, out of boredom spend.
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  Dollars on it and hope that it tells you something interesting.
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  This should be a book that really draws you in because you
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  see I this guy's got to talk about things that no one else is
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  talking about. That was the approach we took
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  with the last book which was called a here's here's the first
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  filter, the title The heroic and exceptional minorities.
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  What the heck does that mean? I think that even the title of
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  something that and the cover to is I knew to really good job on
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  this nice emblem here. It's it's meant to either pique
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  your curiosity, like that sounds like something the kind of
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  message. I've been waiting for someone to
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  say for a very long time or why would I read a book called that?
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  What is that even about? What does that mean the heroic
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  and exceptional minority like it.
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  And those people should not read the book because you're going to
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  open it and you're going to get really frustrated like with the
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  introduction called the Mythology, and the mentorship in
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  the medium of Mythology is the title of the introduction.
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  Like again another thing that's either you're going to say, that
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  sounds really interesting. What does that mean that
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  mythology is a medium of mentorship or you're going to
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  say I have no idea how that relates and you should move on
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  to another book. That's fine.
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  So any book that I work on for someone else, I kind of want a
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  similar kind of reaction that to a certain kind of person that's
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  going to appeal very, very high. And it doesn't have to be the
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  kind of thing that, I mean, if it were the kind of thing that
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  we're just an instant bestseller to mass audiences, or you
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  already had a huge following of millions of social media
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  connections. You would either already put be
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  publishing it yourself because you knew what to do or a major
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  publisher would be reaching out to you.
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  Say saying that they'd like to print a million copies of your
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  book because they know what kinds of books will sell a
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  million copies so if you have that kind of book and you can
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  you have that kind of persona as an author.
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  You don't need someone like me. Right?
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  You have other options, it's kind of interesting to me, you
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  know what? Appeals to the masses?
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  You know, I remember years ago when this is completely
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  different field but I was watching a wrestling shoot
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  interview. So professional wrestling, shoot
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  interview and the guy speaking had been in the business for
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  about 30 years and he was explaining what good wrestling
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  is like, what? What does that mean?
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  And he said, in his opinion, Good wrestling was you know,
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  whatever sells the most tickets, you know, like a it doesn't
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  matter how good the match in the ring was, you know, it could be
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  the most amazing match you've ever seen in your life.
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  But if that's not what people paid to see if that's not the
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  main attraction, then it's not and he made this great point,
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  which is why I wanted to bring this up.
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  He mentioned this idea of you're appealing to mr.
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  And mrs. Walmart your everyday person
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  that's the majority. See if people and bringing that
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  back to books for a second. When you go into somewhere, like
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  it here in the UK somewhere like water stones or I don't know.
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  Trouble is I don't really read books a lot.
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  I do a lot of like reading nonfiction and that and I listen
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  to audio books and that's how I roll because this be personally,
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  I can't for some reason I find it really hard to just sit and
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  like read novels and works, unless I'm using it for
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  something. You know what I mean?
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  Like, I'm very much. Such I think I figured out.
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  I'm just a nonfiction person and that's all I ever will be, which
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  is kind of sad. I know I'm missing out there,
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  but I just can't sit and I don't know.
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  I just get tired for some reason.
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  I find it much easier to listen to someone for like 3 hours.
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  I do a lot of audiobooks to, and I always make sure my books are
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  available on audio, because I know a lot of people really
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  prefer audio and I think, I think that's a good thing.
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  I think, honestly, that's, it's a great decision because so many
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  books are consumed in that format.
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  Like, I recently listened to the Martian, which Like a 10 11, our
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  audio book and if you haven't checked it out, I really just
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  just as a work. The saw the movie Matt Damon,
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  right? Yeah, but I did to be honest, I
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  don't think the movies. Got anything on the book.
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  Well, at least. I don't know.
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  The audio interpretation was much more Poignant powerful.
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  I don't know, something like that but anyway to bring it back
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  to the point. Like if you look at those
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  bestsellers you look at those, I don't know, 10 to 50 books that
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  are the highest sellers. They tend to be very basic.
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  You'll have a few exceptions, some notable exceptions.
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  But generally speaking, it's going to be just, I don't know
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  some novel concept that appeals to a white Mass audience and
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  then Comes to history politics culture.
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  These kind of things like you get occasional break through
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  things that come through and so a lot.
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  But often that will be because it's a particularly compelling
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  story, that's luckily managed to get some press behind it and
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  push it through that kind of mainstream barrier so to speak.
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  But there's so many wonderful amazing works like books that
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  don't necessarily get the recognition they deserve and
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  don't get in those bestseller lists and has nothing to do with
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  them being good books. Or whether or not they're worthy
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  of being best sellers. I think it's just what I
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  mentioned before. The mr.
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  And mrs. Walmart principal of you know
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  what is the average person going to be interested in?
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  Are they going to be interested in a compelling story of someone
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  you know struggling in some part of the world that they're not
• 14:07
  familiar with and you know because that's the thing on
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  paper. It will give you a blurb which
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  would probably sucker in many of us.
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  Like yeah, that sounds like somebody made a compelling.
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  I want to learn about that one and learn doing any like this.
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  This put it like like with me personally I have an obsession
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  with knowledge and learning like to me the more knowledge, the
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  better, you know that's that's my addiction knowledge.
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  Same sure. Right.
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  And it's like but not everyone is the same way.
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  Some people just want to which I totally understand.
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  I'm not, I'm not criticizing this by the way, it's different.
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  We all consume art and media for different reasons some of us.
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  Just want to sit back and listen to something or read something
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  and lose ourselves in that. I'm very much.
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  So, like, if you have a novel, I mean, take something like a
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  Harry Potter. For example, it's a novel
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  series. It's it's supposed to entertain
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  transform, you know, put you into a different world for a
• 15:04
  while and you and that's great, you know, and that serves a
• 15:07
  purpose and when you when you, when you've got something like
• 15:12
  some of the works that you're publishing through your for your
• 15:16
  Publishing Company. Works serve kind of like two
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  different purposes I suppose in some they are supposed to
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  entertain in a way feels weird saying that for if it's someone
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  selling a story that's like really serious because we're
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  like, oh this is for entertainment but I would call
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  it engaging in case. Yes.
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  To find it. Interesting.
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  Sure right. Yeah, that that would be the the
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  entertainment value in. It would be the engaged in
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  losing yourself in the story and learning and everything that's
• 15:46
  associated with that. but then it's also a resource as well,
• 15:50
  you know, and the nonfiction Market is so huge as well, not
• 15:54
  just the fiction Market but it's a totally different ball game
• 15:58
  and I think Well, I don't know much about the book industry,
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  but when I compare it to other industries from a local
• 16:05
  marketing and sales perspective to me, it always seems like it
• 16:09
  depends how much money you've got.
• 16:11
  A, hind you do, you have the machine behind you?
• 16:13
  Do you have the right eyes? Sometimes it can be something as
• 16:16
  simple as, you know, particular people pick up on your book and
• 16:21
  they throw it out to the masses, you know, that can apply to
• 16:24
  everything. Like take my podcast.
• 16:26
  For example, I've been doing this now for nearly two years.
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  Two years, 130 old episodes and then that time.
• 16:39
  I would like to say that there's a regular audience, but it's
• 16:42
  really hard to say because sometimes it seems like there's
• 16:45
  a regular audience, then it dips and drops and then etc, etc,
• 16:48
  right. So it's difficult to really say,
• 16:50
  like, has it grown. Is there a core audience?
• 16:53
  That I think there are some people listening.
• 16:55
  Hopefully, this difficult to say, into reading to measure and
• 17:01
  quite a few people over over over the years of said, like,
• 17:04
  are you know, what your numbers like how?
• 17:06
  How are you doing? Are you reaching people?
• 17:08
  Are you growing? And it's difficult for me to
• 17:10
  answer that question because I guess the short answer, but the
• 17:15
  short answer would be would be no.
• 17:16
  You know, I'm getting a lot of fantastic guests and I love
• 17:20
  doing this. I love interviewing people
• 17:22
  learning about people, you know, it's amazing for me, but
• 17:27
  obviously, you do have to look at it over time.
• 17:28
  Like is this going anywhere? And to bring the reason why I
• 17:32
  brought this up is a lot of the time it will.
• 17:36
  Hinge on, have you had that shoutout?
• 17:38
  Have you reached that person have?
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  You has to have the right? I seen it.
• 17:43
  You can be under the radar for so long before you get seen and
• 17:50
  that's the difficulty of it, isn't it?
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  Sometimes it is just about being seen by the right people and
• 17:54
  other times. It's about what's the budget?
• 17:58
  Do you have that budget behind you and excetera?
• 18:00
  So bring it back to yourself. I think it's wonderful that the
• 18:03
  people that you yourself exist that have these companies Knees.
• 18:06
  He's publishing companies where you are looking for people and
• 18:09
  trying to give them an opportunity and say, hey, I
• 18:12
  believe in what you're doing. Let's get it out there.
• 18:14
  Let's, let's showcase your work and showcase your story.
• 18:19
  Yeah. And especially because, you
• 18:21
  know, we're never going to be able to compete with millions of
• 18:24
  dollars of advertising budget and and books in every store
• 18:27
  across the country or whatever. Luckily.
• 18:30
  You know, because of print-on-demand technology and
• 18:33
  self-publishing services on Amazon and Ingram spark the Your
• 18:36
  to entry is so low now that anyone can publish a book and
• 18:40
  there are a lot of really crappy published books because of that.
• 18:42
  But it also means that if you have something that is a niche
• 18:45
  appeal but that isn't currently represented at least in the form
• 18:49
  of a book you can undertake the effort necessary to polish it.
• 18:52
  Make it look like a real professional book and get it out
• 18:55
  there and as long as then you get it in front of the right
• 18:58
  people. Like for example the book about
• 19:01
  the Armenian prisoners of War and the book is called sadistic
• 19:04
  pleasure silent crime. Of Azerbaijan.
• 19:07
  There are no books written any time recently about the
• 19:10
  conflicts that have been ongoing between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
• 19:14
  There's very little reliable information about what's going
• 19:16
  on in this part of the world. And so already, the book has
• 19:19
  been out for less than a month. It is ranking.
• 19:21
  Know you could go to Amazon right now and check it will
• 19:23
  probably still be true in this podcast tears.
• 19:25
  If you type in the word, Azerbaijan not even under the
• 19:28
  books category under all categories on Amazon.
• 19:31
  This book is the first thing that comes up because there's
• 19:34
  not a lot of competition. There aren't People writing
• 19:36
  books or making product specifically about Armenia and
• 19:39
  Azerbaijan and I think it's true.
• 19:41
  Also for Armenia it's one of the first things that comes up.
• 19:43
  So for people who are looking for that which may not sound
• 19:45
  like a lot compared to some International bestseller.
• 19:48
  That sells 10 million copies, this is the book, They're going
• 19:52
  to see in at least know about and if enough people read it and
• 19:54
  say okay this is this is telling me stories and getting the
• 19:57
  information that I'm not getting from anywhere else, you're going
• 19:59
  to recommend to recommend it to other people that, you know, are
• 20:02
  interested in that that previously didn't even have the
• 20:04
  option of reading a book about about this kind of thing.
• 20:08
  So let me yeah, I couldn't agree more.
• 20:15
  When it, when it comes to approaching publishing in
• 20:20
  general, what are the sort of key things to consider my, all
• 20:25
  look out for? Let's say someone wants to
• 20:27
  become a publisher tomorrow. I imagine, it's not a very
• 20:31
  simple, very straightforward process to become a publisher
• 20:33
  wants to publish a book, okay? So that's an important
• 20:37
  distinction. Then I again, do you want to run
• 20:39
  a full-fledged publishing house and help other authors?
• 20:41
  Who do you want to write a good book and publish?
• 20:43
  It would I think you mean the ladder You somebody who wants
• 20:46
  one right? Publish a good book?
• 20:47
  Well, no, no. I mean my question is more like
• 20:50
  because you are an independent publisher.
• 20:52
  So you know while you're also an author and we'll talk about that
• 20:55
  in a bit like the books, you've written.
• 20:57
  But just you essentially like a business owner with clients
• 21:04
  underneath you who you know, are paying for your services to
• 21:08
  publish them, to give them, not only a platform to one which to
• 21:14
  showcase Their work, but also access to resources.
• 21:17
  I imagine and other different things.
• 21:18
  So, what the key things I guess you needed to become a
• 21:25
  successful publisher. Well, there's a very big
• 21:29
  discrepancy between people who have something worth saying and
• 21:32
  people who know how books work. Okay.
• 21:36
  That's, that's really, my job is to help them bridge that Gap
• 21:39
  because it's been six or seven years that I've been studying.
• 21:44
  This Now, like I wasn't interested in publishing books
• 21:47
  before until I realized I wasn't in the position to write one.
• 21:50
  I've always been a fan of books. I always found very interesting
• 21:52
  is that Medium, especially really old books.
• 21:54
  You know that we can take information from hundreds of
• 21:56
  years ago and still retain it is, you know, this physical
• 22:00
  package to me is really cool and the basic concept of a book
• 22:04
  hasn't changed since the printing press was invented.
• 22:06
  You know, it's kind of a Timeless medium.
• 22:09
  You can even now with audiobooks and ebooks, we still love
• 22:12
  paperbacks and hard covers and so that that I am definitely
• 22:16
  aesthetically attracted to the concept of books themselves.
• 22:20
  But many people who have had interesting life experiences or
• 22:24
  her have interviewed people who have an interesting philosophy
• 22:27
  or approach to something. They know what they want to say,
• 22:30
  but they haven't figured out how to translate that thing into
• 22:34
  something that looks and feels like what you expect when you
• 22:37
  buy a professionally published book, that includes the interior
• 22:41
  obviously, the text needs to be edited and proof, read and
• 22:44
  broken down. Two chapters that make sense in
• 22:47
  needs to be formatted with the right fonts in the right layout
• 22:50
  on the page. So that again, looks like what
• 22:52
  you expect a book to look like, many of these things are
• 22:55
  unconscious, you know. Like sometimes you'll pick up a
• 22:58
  self-published book, you know, say this just looks cheap.
• 23:00
  There's something wrong with this, right?
• 23:02
  You don't know what it is. Maybe it's because the margins
• 23:04
  are too slim or they chose a really bad combination of fonts
• 23:07
  or the or the the way, the headers show, the page numbers
• 23:10
  is different than what you're used to.
• 23:12
  And again you've never noticed it because every optional book
• 23:15
  you've ever bought has had these things done in a certain way but
• 23:18
  then when you suddenly pick up a book that neglected to do them
• 23:21
  the same way, you're like, this feels wrong, it's doesn't feel
• 23:23
  like a real book. And so that's one of the
• 23:25
  mistakes that self-published authors make is they don't
• 23:28
  conform to the standards, many of which are quite arbitrary,
• 23:31
  but they are standards that have come to exist in there.
• 23:34
  What people expect the same way that if somebody's not wearing a
• 23:37
  business suit in an office, it's kind of odd.
• 23:40
  Like why is that guy wearing it swim trunks in the office?
• 23:44
  That's that Long, right? So those are the kinds of
• 23:47
  things, you kind of have to learn how to blend in and make
• 23:49
  it look like. Yes, this is a real book that
• 23:51
  somebody put an incredible amount of work and refinement
• 23:53
  into. And then, of course, there's the
• 23:55
  cover design and and the description that people really
• 23:57
  say that and just, you know, a couple paragraphs what this book
• 24:00
  is about. You have to present yourself as
• 24:02
  a real author worth listening. To, if you can do all those
• 24:05
  things, it's really just about learning how the major book
• 24:08
  ecosystems. Like, I mentioned Amazon and
• 24:10
  Ingram spark. There's the two.
• 24:12
  Biggest print-on-demand Publishing House Has and most
• 24:15
  people just immediately search Amazon.
• 24:17
  If they even want to see a book exists at all, if you learn how
• 24:19
  those things work, and you have a book that looks like a real
• 24:22
  book, then it's really just about getting in front of the
• 24:24
  right eyes, like you said, because eventually the right
• 24:26
  people will see, it's a finally, a book about this.
• 24:29
  Finally someone who's addressing this thing.
• 24:31
  I've been waiting for, I get those mid kind of messages all
• 24:34
  the time and you were talking about your podcast audience.
• 24:37
  You know how hard it is to track like to do?
• 24:39
  I even really have a core audience of repeat listeners.
• 24:42
  What are people really thinking? That's Kind of how I feel about
• 24:46
  my own books. I can see how many books I'm
• 24:48
  selling. Yeah, I can see if it's
• 24:49
  consistent or if it's rising or is falling.
• 24:52
  But I really don't know what happens to the books.
• 24:54
  Once they're sold for all. I know half the people who buy
• 24:56
  them, just put them on a shelf and forget about them wherever
• 24:58
  they opened and say, well, this is trash and throw it away, but
• 25:01
  I do occasionally, get emails and messages on social media
• 25:05
  from people who said, I just read your entire book that
• 25:07
  heroic and exceptional or minority in one sitting.
• 25:09
  And oh my God, it was, it was amazing.
• 25:11
  Like I've never read a book like this before and that's nice
• 25:14
  because it Della dates. Okay.
• 25:16
  There are people out there that are receiving it.
• 25:19
  The way I intended it. I don't know how many of them
• 25:22
  but then there's at least one. This guy is 1.
• 25:25
  So I have to assume there are others too.
• 25:27
  Yeah, I completely relate to that.
• 25:29
  I get the occasional message every once in a while or people
• 25:32
  going on, hey, what's the next podcast going to be?
• 25:35
  Or, you know, I like, I know that it's at least maybe like a
• 25:38
  say, like five people that always listen and thank you so
• 25:41
  much to the five people that listen.
• 25:45
  But it is confusing, you know like because some time and I'm
• 25:48
  sure you have the same thing where like different mumps or
• 25:50
  different episodes or different books.
• 25:52
  They say perform differently. So like I've had episodes where
• 25:56
  you know they had high engagement on YouTube or Spotify
• 26:01
  up a podcast, whatever am I okay great I guess like for a while.
• 26:06
  I remember on my audio platforms.
• 26:08
  I was averaging about 20 lessons per episode was all this is
• 26:12
  fantastic. This is this is this is
• 26:14
  progress. And now it's dropped down to
• 26:16
  like 58 listens and I don't really know what that means.
• 26:20
  Plus there's other things to consider like oh maybe maybe
• 26:26
  it's the same person re listening and stuff and that's
• 26:30
  brilliant. But then also seeing the page 5
• 26:32
  times probably do know, like sometimes people pause and come
• 26:36
  back to it. Sometimes people listen again
• 26:38
  you know which is brilliant but it's like I guess my point is
• 26:42
  it's difficult to learn from that because you don't know how
• 26:45
  Consuming it and like you said, like let's bring it back to
• 26:47
  books. Okay let's say someone buys,
• 26:51
  they might buy a bunch of bulk order and you're not okay great
• 26:56
  or they might you know purchase a book and then purchase another
• 27:00
  one but maybe they're just replacing the old one you don't
• 27:03
  know you know it could be that they're buying it for someone
• 27:05
  else and be like hey you need to get this book.
• 27:07
  Here's your copy. Yeah, you just don't know and
• 27:11
  that's the difficulty as not knowing.
• 27:14
  And obviously the problem with that is it then justify its
• 27:17
  difficult to then justify your next moves.
• 27:20
  Like, with me and my podcast, I I just keep going, that's my
• 27:24
  Approach, just keep going, keep doing it, but obviously be
• 27:28
  different for yourself because it's a business.
• 27:31
  So you've got a kind of make decisions with that in mind.
• 27:34
  You know, it's your livelihood. So you got to be like, okay,
• 27:36
  sometimes there's going to be hard decisions to make.
• 27:39
  Like for example, if you publish, let's say a book by a
• 27:43
  particular author and it doesn't do well.
• 27:46
  Maybe you don't publish any more books by this person, or maybe
• 27:50
  you stop publishing their books, or, you know what I mean, like
• 27:54
  those those hard decisions that you sometimes have to make
• 27:56
  because just the numbers on performing up to expectations
• 28:00
  or, you know, maybe you're making a loss on it or something
• 28:04
  to that effect like, you know, yeah, well, there's so many
• 28:08
  variables, you can't directly control or even monitor once
• 28:11
  it's published. So I don't, especially if I'm
• 28:14
  writing a book, which takes months of my life.
• 28:16
  At the very least I don't write it.
• 28:18
  Unless it's a book that I know needs to be written and I'm in a
• 28:21
  position to do a very good job of writing it.
• 28:24
  Hmm. And because then his last thing
• 28:26
  you want to be doing is going to all the trouble of writing a
• 28:27
  book publishing it and it's not selling you're wondering.
• 28:29
  Well, maybe the book is just crap.
• 28:31
  Maybe look, you want to be sure when you publish it.
• 28:35
  This is a worthwhile book that should exist that is worth
• 28:38
  paying $15 for that. Somebody somewhere will love
• 28:41
  because then the only question you need to answer is, how do I
• 28:43
  get that person to see and buy this book if you're still with?
• 28:46
  Wondering, was it really even a good book or that I need to
• 28:49
  proofread it a few more times of make that cover designs really
• 28:52
  bad. Then you don't know why?
• 28:54
  It's not selling. It could be any of those
• 28:56
  reasons, but if you're sure, yes, this book contains a
• 28:58
  message that I need to communicate.
• 29:00
  I did a very good job of communicating it and somebody
• 29:02
  somewhere will find extreme value in it.
• 29:04
  Then you're not asking those questions anymore.
• 29:06
  I know everything I write publish is of substance in is a
• 29:10
  value in at least one very important regard.
• 29:13
  Doesn't mean everybody who runs a business needs to read my guy.
• 29:16
  To branding, or whatever. Just means that there are some
• 29:18
  people who will find it to be uniquely valuable that and
• 29:21
  that's that's something I never understood about readers and
• 29:24
  their expectations to. Because some everybody gets
• 29:27
  negative reviews eventually, though.
• 29:28
  Matter how good or bad the book is right?
• 29:31
  You can, you can get a hundred five star review.
• 29:33
  Saying finally is Guy, explain something in a way.
• 29:35
  No one else did, you know? Get one guy?
• 29:37
  Who said I already knew all this.
• 29:44
  Okay. Well, like, Did I have known
• 29:47
  that you specifically already knew this?
• 29:49
  When I wrote this book and tailored it around your specific
• 29:52
  expectations, buddy, like sorry, like I did my best to describe
• 29:57
  what would be in the book when I listed it.
• 29:59
  You chose to buy it. I don't know why you were
• 30:01
  expecting something other than what I clearly said was in the
• 30:03
  book. It's stuff like that.
• 30:06
  I've never really understood this, you know?
• 30:08
  So you just have to assume that kind of stuff is going to happen
• 30:10
  and move on and keep producing high quality stuff.
• 30:14
  Yes, I got a little hike comenzar.
• 30:16
  Might as well, and made me feel like, skits or cover songs or
• 30:20
  whatever else I'm doing elsewhere.
• 30:22
  And, you know, criticism is always, welcome.
• 30:27
  I think because, you know, you can't expect to be liked by
• 30:31
  everyone, you know? And sometimes you can learn
• 30:33
  things from your critics, but, yeah, sometimes they're just
• 30:38
  It's basically just trolling. Isn't it likely?
• 30:40
  See some of those reviews and it's like it's like this is not
• 30:42
  ready to be taken. Seriously, it's one thing, if
• 30:44
  someone said I didn't like this book because of like How It Was
• 30:46
  Written or the author's over-reliance on this particular
• 30:51
  thing or something like, that's fair enough.
• 30:53
  But when there are reasons to give bad reviews.
• 30:55
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 30:56
  What it promises to be, for example, or it really is just
• 30:59
  bad. Sure.
• 31:00
  But I still get reviews like that was like, oh well you know
• 31:05
  I read this on my book and they told me this and it's not well
• 31:07
  Eight like yeah, I'd be grateful.
• 31:11
  If you were if you wrote a review that was like, okay,
• 31:13
  well, I see the author was trying to do this, but it really
• 31:16
  didn't work for me because of X Y & Z, right?
• 31:18
  Or, you know, I didn't learn anything from this but I can see
• 31:21
  why someone else might. If they didn't already know what
• 31:23
  I know or something. I also think because we live in
• 31:26
  the age of what we have to be careful of of things being faked
• 31:32
  negative reviews are actually very valuable because it
• 31:36
  demonstrates, It's the well, you can never know 100% for sure.
• 31:41
  If someone has like faked positive reviews, there are some
• 31:45
  telltale signs sometimes, but you never necessarily know 100%.
• 31:51
  But when there's like, negative reviews as well and they haven't
• 31:53
  been deleted or, you know, or whatever, that's a good thing,
• 31:57
  it shows, okay, you know, they're open to criticism, these
• 32:02
  reviews are at least trustworthy, you know, People
• 32:05
  have consumed this, not liked it, let their thoughts.
• 32:09
  Okay, great. And, you know, you let the
• 32:11
  public decide and this is this ties into a bigger point.
• 32:14
  I wanted to raise with you, as well, which I think is really
• 32:16
  important is, I think, in the set of readings fear books,
• 32:23
  fear. It's one of those Industries
• 32:25
  that's always, despite having been affected by technology in a
• 32:31
  major way. As you mentioned before, you
• 32:33
  know, hardback is still success. S4 and it always will be
• 32:37
  because, you know, people want physical things.
• 32:39
  You know. Vinyl is a good example of that,
• 32:41
  you know. It's the vital Revival shows you
• 32:43
  that, you know, as much as it's great to have things online and
• 32:46
  Technology makes things, you know, more efficient or easier,
• 32:51
  you know you can download any book and have it on a Kindle
• 32:53
  great you know, but people still want a physical like the
• 32:56
  pleasure and the experience of reading a book and opening it
• 32:59
  and smelling Pages or whatever like that.
• 33:01
  That is an experience in of itself.
• 33:04
  But It's also a industry that's heavily Reliant still and I
• 33:10
  think always will be on word-of-mouth on reviews, you
• 33:14
  know, okay, maybe it's not anymore.
• 33:16
  Like, you know, a few, a few people go into a group reading
• 33:21
  club and they're like suggesting a book to each other and then
• 33:23
  that still happens but it's not wholly reliant on that anymore.
• 33:27
  It's like I suppose the word of mouth is now online on websites
• 33:32
  like say Goodreads for example. Where, you know, people can
• 33:36
  leave those reviews and they build up over time.
• 33:39
  And that is what ultimately decides if it's a good book or
• 33:42
  not with in terms of like the overall public opinion.
• 33:45
  Like if more people are saying it's good, then people saying
• 33:48
  it's crap and it's probably worth your time, but it's still
• 33:52
  subjective and the people decide.
• 33:54
  And I think that I give you a very good example of something
• 33:57
  that can happen at. This is the first time this has
• 34:00
  happened on any book ever worked on mine or anyone elses on the,
• 34:03
  on the new book about Armenian as John sadistic Pleasures,
• 34:06
  currently. It has about 50 percent five
• 34:09
  star reviews and 50% one star reviews this interested.
• 34:15
  And I can guarantee that all of the one-star reviews or at least
• 34:20
  almost all of them are from azerbaijani people who did not
• 34:24
  read the book because they're all one sentence saying.
• 34:28
  This is, this is bullshit. This is all fake, Armenians are
• 34:31
  lying about what we did to their country, don't listen to them.
• 34:36
  And of course, all the faster ones people who actually read
• 34:38
  this incredibly detailed account.
• 34:41
  These 14 interviews that this journalist said of these people
• 34:43
  who went through horrible, prisoner of war conditions and
• 34:47
  bird tortured and just awful things that you'd really have to
• 34:51
  be a very insensitive or bad person to accuse these people of
• 34:55
  lying about the horrible things, they went through.
• 34:59
  And so you have obviously that's not a reliable metric of how
• 35:03
  good the book is because now it's got an average of Two and a
• 35:05
  half stars, have five star have one star so a Discerning reader
• 35:09
  has to look through and say, what's going on here?
• 35:11
  Why do have people love this naphtha?
• 35:12
  People hate this. And which one am I more likely
• 35:15
  to be? I read the one star reviews and
• 35:17
  they're all just angry one-sentence rants about this is
• 35:20
  awful lies. Don't buy this book and the
• 35:23
  five-star ones are multiple paragraphs about like, how
• 35:26
  important it is that this book was written and how well how
• 35:29
  well done the interviews were and so forth, which kind of
• 35:32
  person are you? Are you going to have the
• 35:34
  reaction where you just An angry and yelling at the sky.
• 35:37
  Or are you the kind of person who's really going to gain a lot
• 35:40
  from the interviews contained in this book?
• 35:41
  And, you know, fortunately because this is the kind of book
• 35:45
  that would only appeal to Discerning.
• 35:46
  Critically thinking readers in the first place.
• 35:49
  Not for mr. And mrs.
• 35:50
  Walmart, mr. And mrs.
• 35:51
  Walmart will just see. Oh, it's got a low-ranking.
• 35:53
  I'm not going to buy this book, but the critical thinker will
• 35:55
  say, why are so many people leaving one star reviews on
• 35:58
  this? And so many people loving it
• 36:00
  right now. I get to decide and that's a
• 36:02
  cool thing about reviews, as well as sometimes.
• 36:05
  Something has enough bad reviews that can have the adverse effect
• 36:09
  and actually drive sales because it's like scale was curious.
• 36:12
  Yes. I why is this bad?
• 36:13
  I high must know. I must know why this is bad, but
• 36:16
  if you're going to do that, it's even more important.
• 36:19
  That the book actually looks like a high-quality book because
• 36:23
  if it were very rushed into production and not proof read in
• 36:27
  a very bad description written for it, then you would assume
• 36:31
  that the bad reviews might need - of just the fact that it's a
• 36:34
  poor quality. Production.
• 36:35
  But if the description is very well written and the cover is
• 36:38
  really good and you open it up and the formatting is really
• 36:41
  nice. It looks like a really
• 36:42
  professionally laid out book and all these people are hating it.
• 36:44
  Then you have to wonder why, what is this book saying?
• 36:47
  That is pissing off so many people.
• 36:48
  It's probably not just because it's a poor quality poorly
• 36:51
  produced book. So then they switch up a little
• 36:56
  bit. What would you say are the?
• 37:00
  Say the biggest challenges associated with being a
• 37:03
  publisher books, books are of long-form medium.
• 37:12
  Generally, even even short books.
• 37:13
  Like the shortest books ever works on over 30,000 words, it
• 37:17
  over 100 pages, right? Because anything shorter than
• 37:20
  that was more like a pamphlet, right?
• 37:23
  It's more like double that for nonfiction is more around 50 or
• 37:26
  60,000 words, to 300 Pages. My longest book was about 400
• 37:31
  pages and so when you're asking someone, if they buy a book,
• 37:38
  you're not just asking, does this look like a topic that
• 37:40
  interests you, like, you might say what you watch a
• 37:43
  three-minute YouTube video about such and such because it's a
• 37:47
  very small investment of someone's life in detention.
• 37:50
  So, not only is it take many hours of someone's time to Need
• 37:53
  a long-form book. Requires a cognitive investment,
• 37:56
  right? Especially if you're reading
• 37:58
  instead of listening to the audio, right, you really
• 38:00
  dedicating your time to staring at these Pages for hours and
• 38:04
  hours and you can't be distracted doing other things.
• 38:07
  And so the value proposition and the sales decision that has to
• 38:12
  be made is not just is this interesting enough that I would
• 38:14
  read a book about it, but I, but I paid 10 or $20 to have that
• 38:17
  book. It's will I invest 10 hours of
• 38:19
  my time into learning what this person has to say to me?
• 38:23
  Me. I will I read a couple chapters
• 38:25
  and get bored and throw it away. That's, that's the hard Parts.
• 38:29
  Like deciding Beyond just is this a good idea for a book?
• 38:33
  But can I actually see it through to the completion of
• 38:36
  making it the full intended message of the book in the best
• 38:39
  possible form can be in, convince people to undergo that
• 38:43
  lengthy journey. I imagine you've probably had to
• 38:46
  reject some, some people in some cases and in those cases Why did
• 38:54
  you reject? And what will the ultimate kind
• 38:56
  of reasons? Why you said, maybe this isn't
• 39:00
  going to work? I would never tell someone out,
• 39:03
  right? Don't write or publish your
• 39:06
  book, The only the worst I'll say is I'm not the right person
• 39:09
  to work on this. That's it.
• 39:11
  In fact, even after the Armenia book was published, which again
• 39:14
  is less than a month ago. I've had people reaching out to
• 39:17
  me now in countries. I know nothing about saying,
• 39:20
  I've written a book about this crisis.
• 39:21
  Going on in my country. Will you help me publish?
• 39:24
  And I don't want to just reject them outright, but I'll say to
• 39:28
  them. Well, the reason I worked on
• 39:29
  this book is because I'm in a position to know about what's
• 39:32
  what this book is about and see the value in it, because I'm
• 39:34
  living here in Armenia and I'm privileged to information the
• 39:37
  rest of the world isn't. That's why I chose to work on
• 39:40
  this book, right? That's not going to be the case
• 39:43
  with somewhere in Africa, with some civil war, going on that, I
• 39:48
  know nothing about which isn't to say that that information
• 39:50
  isn't important. It's just that I'm not in a
• 39:53
  position. Position particularly to help
• 39:55
  you do that, which is why I wrote a book about how to do it.
• 39:59
  I wrote 400 pages about how you could publish your own book
• 40:02
  because that's the best I can offer for that person.
• 40:05
  I know those people are chaps me.
• 40:06
  I send them the PDF of my book for free and I say, you know, I
• 40:10
  this is the best I can do for you.
• 40:12
  I wrote 400 pages about this, check out chapter 7, it talks
• 40:16
  about the things you're dealing with right now.
• 40:18
  Good luck, sorry, because I can't miss dozens of hours of my
• 40:21
  time into this exact time. In a position to see the value
• 40:24
  of it. That's really good of you to do
• 40:27
  that. By the way, just on a side note
• 40:28
  to send them that that resource, you know, like just the I
• 40:32
  respect for that. I don't think that's really
• 40:34
  awesome which leads me on to my next question.
• 40:38
  In general. Would you say that
• 40:40
  self-publishing is sort of the best route to go for an
• 40:44
  up-and-coming author? Or do you think there's still
• 40:46
  some value working with a major publisher?
• 40:49
  I know this has been a leading question and it is relative
• 40:52
  probably to Dances. But in your personal opinion
• 40:55
  like which, which would be better for an upcoming author,
• 41:00
  every case is different of course but I think if you're in
• 41:02
  the position where you even have to question if you want to
• 41:05
  self-publish, it's probably because you're not inundated
• 41:08
  with offer author offers from major Publishers, right?
• 41:13
  Yeah. Like if you if you already have
• 41:16
  a platform and a name for yourself and you're writing
• 41:18
  something that for some reason, you know, millions of people
• 41:22
  will buy You have connections to Publishers then at least explore
• 41:27
  the option. You know, there are certain
• 41:31
  downsides that come with that like you lose a lot of creative
• 41:33
  control over. What goes in your book, you're
• 41:35
  only going to get tiny percentage of the royalties.
• 41:37
  You know getting a much smaller piece of a much larger pie.
• 41:39
  But still there are advantages that come with having that kind
• 41:45
  of support and backing if you want to sell millions of copies
• 41:48
  of your book, that's probably the best way to do it.
• 41:50
  But most people are not going to be in that position most People
• 41:53
  are just going to believe in their own message because it's
• 41:56
  their message and they see the value in it.
• 41:58
  Now, their job is to convince other people of that.
• 42:00
  So if I view it as is a multi-faceted process, you know,
• 42:06
  and you have to figure out what parts you feel comfortable,
• 42:08
  doing yourself and what parts you want to Outsource to other
• 42:11
  people. Whether that's just hiring
• 42:12
  Freelancers or hiring an agency. Or or someone like me, I don't
• 42:16
  do any of my own cover design because I'm not a designer words
• 42:20
  and a marketing guy, I'm really good at the editing and
• 42:22
  proofreading. And the and the structural
• 42:25
  design of what goes into a book, and I'm really good at seeing
• 42:29
  who the target audience of the book is, you know, that's the
• 42:32
  way my head works. But when it comes to most of the
• 42:35
  formatting of the design, I have some people.
• 42:37
  I trust, and I say, hey, here's this book.
• 42:40
  Please do what you think is best with it and I'll I'll approve it
• 42:44
  that's good because that's that's a much better solution
• 42:47
  than me. Trying to figure these things
• 42:48
  out myself from scratch, it's not what I'm best equipped to do
• 42:51
  so, whatever your strengths are. You know, that's you need to
• 42:54
  approach the writing and Publishing process.
• 42:56
  That way to what are you best equipped to do and what would
• 42:58
  you rather and over to someone else?
• 43:00
  And thanks for sharing the really appreciate it.
• 43:04
  I just want to run it back to what you told us at the
• 43:06
  beginning of the podcast. So you said that I know is
• 43:09
  amazing story when I was reading this You got you got screwed
• 43:14
  over by was it was it was it publisher or know someone
• 43:17
  pretending to be a publisher. Is that right?
• 43:19
  Yeah. Well the way she phrased it was
• 43:21
  she helped other people with many other aspects of marketing
• 43:24
  like blogging and webinars and stuff.
• 43:26
  And she was moving into the space of helping people write
• 43:29
  publish books and she wanted me to be her first case, study
• 43:31
  client. So she kind of framed it.
• 43:33
  She was giving me a really good deal to help me do this because
• 43:35
  she believed I had something valuable to say which you know,
• 43:39
  is fine in principle if that's really what's going on.
• 43:41
  Because certainly, When I started out after I wrote my
• 43:44
  first book, I wanted to see, can I help other people publish
• 43:46
  books to? And I approached a friend of
• 43:48
  mine, who was an accountant who had worked with, who specializes
• 43:53
  in taxes for Americans who live in other countries.
• 43:55
  It is thought there's a really interesting Niche subject that
• 43:58
  nobody's written a good book on and I said to him hey I think we
• 44:01
  could publish a book together. I'd like I want to try doing
• 44:05
  what I did with my book on some book that you write and we came
• 44:08
  up with a with an agreement and sells really well.
• 44:12
  Was honest and upfront with him. I only have so much direct
• 44:15
  experience with this, but here's why I believe it will work and
• 44:17
  what I can help you with this specific book that you want to
• 44:20
  write. So there's nothing wrong with
• 44:21
  making an offer like that as long as you can actually do it.
• 44:25
  You know, when you're honest about what your level of
• 44:26
  experiences, she lied about everything and she didn't finish
• 44:30
  even the things that she promised me that was the problem
• 44:33
  with what she did. If you allow me, I just want to
• 44:37
  kind of go down this Rabbit Hole a little bit more.
• 44:42
  I mean, you're quite clearly, a very intelligent bios.
• 44:44
  So in my mind I'm kind of looking at this.
• 44:48
  Like, how did this happen? Like, I mean, you said that
• 44:53
  certain things were tweaking in your mind in the very beginning.
• 44:56
  Your oh, that's weird or why is she being like that?
• 44:58
  Why she's been like that. But like when how come the
• 45:02
  penny, didn't drop like straight away?
• 45:04
  Like We, you just kind of more invested in the project that
• 45:06
  maybe you were just letting this stuff go.
• 45:09
  Or was it just you just didn't. So, put two and two together and
• 45:13
  then it clicked later like talking.
• 45:15
  I can tell you exactly what happened because I'm generally,
• 45:17
  actually, a very skeptical person and very confrontational
• 45:21
  to. I think someone's lying to me,
• 45:22
  rip me off. I'll be the first to accuse
• 45:24
  them, you know, Joe. In this case, in every other
• 45:27
  time I've ever been ripped off in any kind of major with my
• 45:30
  life. It's been for the same reason
• 45:31
  because we came from a a shared community of online
• 45:35
  entrepreneurs. It was called the dynamite
• 45:36
  Circle, might have heard of them a bunch of digital Nomads and
• 45:39
  location independent type people.
• 45:42
  Okay, and we had a lot of mutual connections and she had a big
• 45:46
  presence within that Community which is the reason I was
• 45:48
  willing to overlook my normal amount of skepticism because in
• 45:53
  my mind, if someone who I share a large community with is going
• 45:57
  to rip me off, it's going to hurt them a lot in the long run
• 46:01
  and they should be smart enough to recognize that the
• 46:02
  reputational damage it would do to them just for five thousand
• 46:05
  dollars. Wouldn't be worth it to someone
• 46:07
  who's smart enough to realize that I didn't take into account
• 46:10
  that some people are. It's and have huge Egos and can
• 46:13
  never admit that they're wrong about something, okay?
• 46:16
  And that's what it ended up being.
• 46:17
  She she in public displays on Facebook and inform, she he was
• 46:23
  like screaming. How dare you accuse me of
• 46:26
  stealing from you? I'm blocking you now.
• 46:28
  Don't contact me again. Okay, you're misrepresenting, I
• 46:31
  never agreed to do these things for you.
• 46:32
  I didn't take your money, like she totally lost her mind.
• 46:35
  I was expect you to act like a rational.
• 46:36
  Professional human being like, Oh, I screwed up.
• 46:39
  I can't actually deliver the things you want.
• 46:42
  Let's work out a partial refund, a situation or something,
• 46:44
  because I need to save my reputation.
• 46:46
  Now that's what I would do with that situation if I
• 46:49
  over-promised and realized I couldn't deliver, right?
• 46:51
  But some people have problems. Okay.
• 46:56
  So, I mean, did you ever kind of get any, like, justice for this?
• 47:00
  Like, did you, did you get your money back or I did I did, was
• 47:05
  there some legal action involved?
• 47:07
  I mean like, I mean, I understand obviously, like
• 47:11
  ultimately, That book got made and then that was the success.
• 47:14
  And that's fantastic that got made and at least it wasn't for
• 47:18
  nothing, you know, but in terms of that specific instance, like
• 47:20
  did you ever get any comeuppance on that?
• 47:22
  Do you know if that person has continued just sort of mess
• 47:26
  other people around? Like, you know, what, talk us
• 47:29
  through like, what came? I did not get my money back, but
• 47:32
  I know that she certainly lost more via reputational harm from
• 47:39
  what happened then she gained from taking my 4,000, Thousand
• 47:42
  dollars. So I feel good about that at
• 47:43
  least, is she's actually kind of hard to find online.
• 47:46
  Now like if you Google her name or the name of the company, she
• 47:49
  was using at the time. It's, it's hard to find and I've
• 47:52
  have public reviews posted ever saying this woman stole five
• 47:55
  thousand dollars for me. She led me on for months, blah,
• 47:57
  blah, blah, blah, blah. So that information is out there
• 48:01
  and I'm sure she still gets clients.
• 48:03
  Who would have worked with her that.
• 48:06
  Now, find out the truth about her and she was not too.
• 48:09
  So again, I don't know what Kind of rational decision.
• 48:13
  Somebody, especially somebody who understands the basics of
• 48:17
  internet marketing and reputation and random.
• 48:19
  Like, why would you risk that level of damage to yourself for
• 48:22
  life? One thing I'm very surprised
• 48:24
  about because America is often often joked about me and about
• 48:29
  as being a nation of suing culture.
• 48:31
  And unfortunately, that's kind of made its way to the UK in
• 48:35
  some short form. But in America it's, you know,
• 48:39
  it's crazy, you know you sue people.
• 48:41
  Just for looking at you, but funny, but, within this
• 48:45
  particular, instance, I'm surprised did this person not
• 48:47
  take any legal action towards you.
• 48:49
  I mean, you said about them online, like, this person
• 48:53
  screwed me over, just so, you know, that don't do business
• 48:56
  with this person, but you put, you put that on public platforms
• 48:59
  and that's enough to obviously, you know, you can, you can sue
• 49:03
  someone over there cook for misrepresentation, or something
• 49:05
  on Libor, or whatever the case may be.
• 49:09
  It stuns me that this person didn't pursue anything too.
• 49:12
  Regard. Like you see one, she's
• 49:15
  obviously poor because she had to steal five thousand dollars
• 49:18
  from me, right? Okay, so she got the money and
• 49:22
  to she knows I'm telling the truth.
• 49:24
  She knows that any serious inquiry into this.
• 49:27
  I will be able to prove that I'm telling the truth, right?
• 49:30
  That if lawyers actually got got down into it and reviewed our
• 49:32
  contract and our emails and what work was or wasn't a great.
• 49:35
  See that I'm actually telling the truth libel has to be
• 49:39
  untrue. Write it.
• 49:42
  Me posting a negative review of you isn't against the law, if it
• 49:45
  reflects reality, if I hired this person and they did a bad
• 49:48
  job that's that's not against the law, right?
• 49:51
  Is there any advice you could give to people listening to this
• 49:57
  that, you know? Want to kind of avoid this
• 50:00
  because I mean I know this is not exactly the sort of
• 50:03
  situation would have been easy to spot straight away.
• 50:06
  But now that you sort of come out, the other end, is there
• 50:09
  anything? Maybe that you overlooked or
• 50:12
  anything that you've learnt coming out of it that you could
• 50:15
  suggest as advice to other people like, hey avoid this like
• 50:18
  you know don't don't do this. There are a lot of General tips
• 50:22
  that certainly apply it like she was way too eager to get the
• 50:27
  project started. As quickly as possible.
• 50:29
  I'm assuming she was desperate for money.
• 50:32
  When I work with summon someone, I'm going to potentially be
• 50:35
  taking thousands of dollars from and working with pretty tightly
• 50:39
  for months on end. I tell them up front.
• 50:41
  Here's what to expect the level of work that's going to be
• 50:44
  required. And and here are the risks.
• 50:46
  And I cannot guarantee that people are going to love and buy
• 50:49
  this book. I just want to prepare you, that
• 50:51
  this is what we're going into. If you feel confident about
• 50:53
  making that decision, we can get started, then we can sign a
• 50:55
  contract and send me the first payment.
• 50:58
  Anyone who doesn't do that with a really big long, risky project
• 51:02
  like writing and Publishing a book has their reasons for doing
• 51:06
  that. That would be my number one
• 51:09
  thing and of course there's other things like have they done
• 51:11
  this before? I can show people now the books,
• 51:13
  I've written and books, I've published for other people and
• 51:15
  they can buy those and check them out and decide if they
• 51:17
  think they're high quality or not, you know.
• 51:21
  Thank you very much for sharing that let's switch up again.
• 51:25
  So, obviously, I mentioned at the beginning of this, that your
• 51:27
  Amazon bestseller, tell us what it meant for you to become an
• 51:32
  Amazon bestseller, in the context of public relations
• 51:35
  sales and selling for small business.
• 51:38
  Honestly, it doesn't mean very much.
• 51:40
  It's kind of just a useful marketing term.
• 51:43
  I mean, I know, I put that on a description of the book, number
• 51:46
  one in the category of sales and what it because people respond
• 51:50
  to Two claims like that. But it really doesn't mean that
• 51:52
  much. It just means that for at least
• 51:54
  a temporary amount of time. Your book was out raking all of
• 51:57
  those within a particular subcategory on Amazon.
• 52:00
  And that's not total sales, that's like sales, over certain
• 52:03
  amount of time it's constantly changing.
• 52:04
  So if if you just happen to sell a lot of copies on one day,
• 52:07
  you'll shoot up in the rankings. That's all it takes to say.
• 52:10
  Yes, I got to number one and this, this one subcategory, I'm
• 52:13
  a best-seller, but I doesn't indicate anything to eat.
• 52:17
  I appreciate this. Refreshing honesty.
• 52:20
  Imagine like a lot of people, I interviewed like they might so
• 52:23
  tell me up like, oh yeah, you know, it's great.
• 52:25
  It did this for the book, did that for the book and you're
• 52:27
  just like straight up. Like I always laugh and people
• 52:29
  say that to me about their books, as if I don't know what
• 52:32
  that means. Like, yes, my book was an Amazon
• 52:34
  bestseller, Mike. Okay.
• 52:35
  Good for you. Pat yourself on the back, right?
• 52:38
  Like most people don't know what that means, but other authors
• 52:41
  will know what that means. So what are you trying to brag
• 52:43
  to me about? Do you think I don't know?
• 52:45
  So would you say in general is quite easy to become my best
• 52:48
  seller on Amazon then? Like it's not, it's not
• 52:50
  difficult. Difficult to achieve that in.
• 52:52
  Well, if you choose a very competitive subcategory to go
• 52:57
  and cut it then yes. And you can choose a subcategory
• 52:59
  completely unrelated to your book.
• 53:01
  You may have noticed this sometimes on Amazon, if you're
• 53:03
  looking for different categories, you'll see like a
• 53:05
  children's coloring book in some obscure Russian history,
• 53:09
  subcategory or something, because the person to publish
• 53:11
  the children's coloring book realized, it would be very easy
• 53:14
  to rank highly in this category. So they just put it in there so
• 53:18
  that they could say, look how high you be.
• 53:19
  My book is ranking. It's It's absurd, I never knew
• 53:23
  about crazy. Show me, that's misleading as
• 53:26
  well. If it's, of course, it is a day
• 53:28
  and there should be some oversight from Amazon.
• 53:30
  Like, obviously there's some level of interpretation of what
• 53:33
  you think your book is about. And what category is it belongs
• 53:35
  in, but a children's coloring book in a Russian history.
• 53:39
  Subcategory like that's obviously manipulation, and
• 53:42
  coercion - so, Let's let's let's focus on you.
• 53:50
  You as a writer talk to us about your approach to writing books,
• 53:54
  you mentioned before that, you know, it's a process.
• 53:56
  It takes often many many months to do it.
• 53:59
  But for you specifically as an author, what's your approach to
• 54:03
  writing books, If I can talk about something easily then I
• 54:08
  know I can write a book about. It writing is not difficult for
• 54:12
  me. It's knowing what to write
• 54:14
  about. If I, if I could sit and talk to
• 54:18
  you for 4 hours about what I have to say about a particular
• 54:21
  subject, then I know that that's a chapter of a book and when I
• 54:24
  write, that's what I should do, I should act like I'm just
• 54:26
  talking to you and explaining to you everything.
• 54:28
  I know about this thing if I can't think of what I should be
• 54:31
  talking about, then I'm going to sit in front of the computer for
• 54:33
  hours wondering, what am I trying to say?
• 54:35
  Here, you know and I think that's the problem.
• 54:37
  Most writers have with things like writer's block is to
• 54:40
  nonfiction is that they haven't actually figured out what
• 54:42
  they're trying to say. Hmm, just know.
• 54:44
  They want to write a book about. Here's here's my philosophy on
• 54:48
  how to run a company effectively and you're either going to end
• 54:51
  up copying, what's already been written?
• 54:53
  A hundred times before because you just read these things in
• 54:55
  other people's, very popular and successful books or you're going
• 54:59
  to realize, you don't actually have something to say you just
• 55:00
  wanted to write a book about this thing because you like this
• 55:03
  thing which is fine. But if I'm going to go through
• 55:06
  the trouble of writing a book, I wanted to because I really have
• 55:08
  something to say about this, you know, weirdly that actually
• 55:12
  reminds me of something similar to I do.
• 55:15
  So I don't know. I don't just do interviews on
• 55:17
  this podcast. I also do discussion episodes,
• 55:20
  which just me talking about a particular topic and there are
• 55:24
  inevitably, I have to structure everything, just in the same way
• 55:27
  that I would with an interview where, you know, I kind of go
• 55:30
  from topic to topic and try to kind of I suppose have like
• 55:34
  something that the listener can follow, you know, like a
• 55:37
  narrative or, you know, just it just an Easy Flow.
• 55:40
  So to speak that you can follow. And in a discussion episode, one
• 55:44
  of the key factors is what you said before.
• 55:48
  Like what am I trying to say? What's the point here?
• 55:51
  Like that? For instance, I'm planning on
• 55:53
  doing an episode about sleep paralysis and sleep, apnea.
• 55:58
  So spoiler for those. That's that's coming up at some
• 56:01
  point. But the thing that I'm
• 56:03
  struggling with and I haven't actually finished the research
• 56:05
  for, it is, what am I trying to say?
• 56:07
  What's the point like, I could easily sit and talk about this
• 56:11
  for ages and read facts and talk about my opinions on it, but
• 56:16
  that's not good enough. That's not.
• 56:18
  What does that mean that there's just it's just like anyone can
• 56:21
  do that. Like, I need to contribute in.
• 56:24
  This is something that you were saying earlier.
• 56:25
  Something of value, this needs to be valuable, and in my mind,
• 56:29
  it's I need to contribute something on this topic.
• 56:32
  That means So, for instance, I did an episode recently about
• 56:37
  multi potentiality and Paloma fee.
• 56:40
  And my point in that there was two key points.
• 56:42
  One was that I, you know, shared by experiences on that, you
• 56:47
  know, realizing that this is a thing realizing that this is
• 56:50
  historical thing as well as as far as it pertains to Plymouth e
• 56:54
  and also the second point was that not only had I realized
• 57:00
  that I was a multipotentialite but I kind of made the assertion
• 57:03
  that That will hang on, on this logic, we're all
• 57:06
  multipotentialites, so this not isn't really like a unique
• 57:09
  thing. Necessarily.
• 57:10
  Maybe it is unique thing to be a polymath, but because that's
• 57:16
  being an expert in several different fields but like a
• 57:19
  multipotentialite. I mean, we're all we've all got
• 57:21
  talent's, we've all got different things that we're good
• 57:23
  at, you know, it's rare that you just have someone that's only
• 57:27
  talented in one specific thing, but not anything else.
• 57:30
  Like that's come on. It's just not, it's not the
• 57:32
  case. enemy like we're all multi-talented and that was I
• 57:36
  guess and that funnily enough came through the research
• 57:40
  process that that kind of final point that I guess I ended the
• 57:45
  episode on was through the process of doing that research
• 57:48
  and figuring out and structuring it and creating this work I was
• 57:52
  like, okay this is my point and I feel like based on everything
• 57:55
  that you said it's the same with a book isn't it's like okay it's
• 57:59
  very easy to contribute something to this maybe even
• 58:03
  That's already been said, but if I'm going to add to this
• 58:06
  literature, I'm going to add to this.
• 58:08
  This field. I need to either offer something
• 58:11
  unique or for my particular opinion on it in a way that
• 58:16
  actually makes a point or just contribute something in general,
• 58:20
  it can't just be a mass rambling of things.
• 58:23
  It could, you know, and I always bag on about structure in
• 58:26
  podcasting, yeah, same reasons it has much of the value of a
• 58:30
  book comes just from the structure, especially little
• 58:33
  From content that it's not just a collection of thoughts about
• 58:36
  something that goes on for hundreds of pages.
• 58:38
  That's it. That's the thing.
• 58:39
  I think, I think it's a learning curve for many people.
• 58:42
  Like, you know, I've mentioned before in the podcast about how
• 58:45
  I think any podcast without a structure is doomed to fail.
• 58:49
  Like you can't just set up a podcast and, you know, it's just
• 58:53
  a couple of people talking, you know, because they had some
• 58:56
  funny conversations and they think, oh yeah, this would be
• 58:58
  funny for people to listen to it, maybe, but you've still got
• 59:02
  structure. You know, you gotta, you know,
• 59:04
  and there's got to be a point. There's gotta be something that
• 59:06
  people can follow as well. It can't just be Mass rambling
• 59:09
  and the book is exactly the same, you know, so you might
• 59:12
  make some fantastic points, but if it's not easy to follow and
• 59:16
  it just goes back and forth, that's just frustrating to read.
• 59:19
  And I think a podcast is the same like, I always focus on.
• 59:23
  Are we finishing a particular topic and moving to another one?
• 59:26
  Like, sometimes I have to jump ahead because I don't know.
• 59:29
  My guest has jumped ahead or its.
• 59:31
  It would be stupid of me not to ask a particular.
• 59:33
  The question of particular moment.
• 59:35
  But generally speaking, I try to ask everything that I can within
• 59:39
  that one topic before we move to the next one.
• 59:41
  You know. And I think the book is the
• 59:43
  same. You need to make your point
• 59:44
  chapter by chapter and slowly progress, the story or the
• 59:48
  narrative or get to the point that you're trying to get to.
• 59:51
  And ideally every chapter should be building on the previous one
• 59:56
  and adding new knowledge but still sort of Pushing that?
• 1:00:02
  That story onward. Yeah and and for me, which
• 1:00:07
  referring to with books is called developmental editing
• 1:00:10
  usually, which is the first type of editing, you have to do well
• 1:00:12
  before you end up proofreading the final version often.
• 1:00:17
  When I'm writing a new book that I know is a subject.
• 1:00:20
  I have enough to say, I want to write a whole book about I'll
• 1:00:23
  have maybe 10 or 15 thousand words but they're all kind of
• 1:00:27
  just random rambling. So I've collected into a
• 1:00:29
  document and then I Sent think. Okay, now that I have kind of a
• 1:00:33
  seed of what this book is about, I have to figure out.
• 1:00:37
  How do I organize these different concepts together?
• 1:00:39
  What order do they need to go? And there's a lot of copying and
• 1:00:41
  pasting that goes on, you know, or remove redundancies or
• 1:00:44
  realizing? Oh, shit.
• 1:00:45
  I have to expand to this whole thing way more than I thought I
• 1:00:47
  did. And that to me takes more time
• 1:00:50
  than just the sitting of type type type type type type type is
• 1:00:53
  thousands of words done. Absolutely.
• 1:00:59
  You mentioned before that people have reached out to you.
• 1:01:02
  And told you, you know, how your books have helped them, what
• 1:01:06
  have been, some of the most compelling messages, you've
• 1:01:08
  received or the most noteworthy responses that you've received
• 1:01:12
  from people that are original works.
• 1:01:16
  I've always thought of myself prided myself on being a really
• 1:01:20
  good explainer of how things work.
• 1:01:22
  So my favorite response is When someone tells me the way you
• 1:01:27
  explained this Maybe learn more about it in one chapter, or in
• 1:01:32
  one day than in three years of trying to learn about a prior or
• 1:01:35
  ten other books I read before this.
• 1:01:37
  That's a really cool reaction. It's like, I've optimized the
• 1:01:41
  communication of this concept to someone.
• 1:01:44
  It's not going to be the same for everyone because everyone's
• 1:01:46
  brain is different. So what's optimal for one kind
• 1:01:47
  of person is going to be optimal for others, but because I know
• 1:01:50
  how frustrating that is to like when you're trying to learn
• 1:01:53
  something complex, and everybody's got a tutorial or
• 1:01:56
  video or a book or something. They're all coming at it from
• 1:01:58
  different angles. And it and okay, well I learned
• 1:02:00
  a little bit about the beginning and I learned something that
• 1:02:02
  happens at the end, but I can't see The Logical connection
• 1:02:05
  between all these things. So when I can do that for
• 1:02:07
  someone when I construct that bridge for them, that bridge of
• 1:02:11
  understanding, and they get it and they cross it suddenly, they
• 1:02:14
  understand, it's like, thank you just gave me years of my life.
• 1:02:17
  That was well worth the price of a book.
• 1:02:20
  I think that's one thing. I didn't ask you about before.
• 1:02:22
  How do you justify pricing? Obviously, you have to factor in
• 1:02:29
  Gita the cost of distribution, the cost of materials, blah,
• 1:02:33
  blah blah printing, but I mean it because it must be difficult
• 1:02:37
  to you know to justify and figure out pricing that my
• 1:02:41
  previous guest, I just had on the show she she she's an artist
• 1:02:44
  and she kind of said that it's like because it's only Her doing
• 1:02:50
  it, and she's getting more and more.
• 1:02:51
  Renowned, excuse me. Chester kind of like keep
• 1:02:55
  raising the prices also, with things like inflation of the
• 1:02:58
  things that naturally Drive business cost.
• 1:03:00
  But generally, I suppose it's the exclusivity of the product
• 1:03:05
  and that she's creating it that generally drives up the price
• 1:03:08
  and that will only continue to increase.
• 1:03:10
  But with books is a bit different as, as I laid out
• 1:03:13
  before, you know, you've got like your initial costs that
• 1:03:16
  decide the price. But Then what the margin is.
• 1:03:21
  I mean, that's totally up to you like, you know, you can go
• 1:03:24
  really high with it and be like, oh, we're a premium provider of
• 1:03:27
  books, or you can set it low and be like, cheap books.
• 1:03:30
  Good quality. Like, how do you decide your
• 1:03:32
  pricing? Well, nothing beats testing.
• 1:03:36
  Of course which is nice. That with self-published books
• 1:03:39
  you can update the price anytime you want and experiment.
• 1:03:42
  If I lower the prices or twice as many copies for the opposite
• 1:03:44
  of raised, the prices will twice as many copies.
• 1:03:46
  That's great. But also within book, That's
• 1:03:49
  there's a pretty understandable range of acceptable prices.
• 1:03:54
  If I charge $100 for paperback, no one's going to buy that
• 1:03:58
  because it's just well, outside the range what people are used
• 1:04:01
  to paying for paperbacks, but could I charge $20 for a
• 1:04:03
  paperback? Maybe if it's a really good book
• 1:04:06
  and if it's 400 Pages like longer books, obviously command
• 1:04:09
  a higher price than short of books.
• 1:04:10
  But also even shorter books if they're, if I know that they're
• 1:04:15
  going to appeal, highly to a very specific, kind of person
• 1:04:18
  who These the copper in the title and weeds the description,
• 1:04:21
  or read the sample of the first chapter.
• 1:04:23
  And says, yes, this is the book for me.
• 1:04:25
  That person will be willing to pay $20 for a paperback, right?
• 1:04:28
  Because they know. Yes, I know I'd this is a book.
• 1:04:30
  I'm going to read. I buy cheap books as like a
• 1:04:33
  gamble. Like, okay, that looks like it
• 1:04:35
  could be interesting and there's a used copy selling for $5.00,
• 1:04:38
  I'll risk it. Maybe you'll sit on my shelf for
• 1:04:40
  a year and maybe I'll open it up and realize.
• 1:04:41
  Oh, yeah. Actually, this is really good.
• 1:04:42
  I'm glad I called this book, but even if I don't, it's not a big
• 1:04:45
  risk. So you have to think of it from
• 1:04:47
  that perspective of the You're like, are they buying this as a
• 1:04:51
  gamble? Because maybe this will be
• 1:04:52
  interesting. It's got some good reviews or
• 1:04:54
  yes, this is the book I want. Is it even that kind of book
• 1:04:57
  where they can have that really strong reaction that they're
• 1:04:59
  willing to pay a higher price for it?
• 1:05:01
  Okay. Thank you very much for sharing
• 1:05:04
  that appreciate it. Let's talk about your latest
• 1:05:06
  publication. So you mentioned it before it's
• 1:05:09
  called the heroic and exceptional minority.
• 1:05:12
  A guide to mythological self-awareness and growth.
• 1:05:16
  What can you tell us about this book?
• 1:05:17
  Why should people read this book?
• 1:05:20
  Well, you should read it. If the concept of being part of
• 1:05:24
  a heroic and exceptional. Minority sounds relevant to you,
• 1:05:27
  frankly big words? Yeah, I tried to really clearly
• 1:05:32
  delineate, two concepts heroism, and exceptionality.
• 1:05:36
  Terrorism is pretty much what would colloquially Kobo
• 1:05:40
  colloquially called being a good person or an ambitious person,
• 1:05:45
  somebody who tries really hard to accomplish their goals, but
• 1:05:47
  does so through like an The sense of morality not someone
• 1:05:51
  who would like kill their neighbor to get what they want.
• 1:05:53
  It's not just a driven person, but a person driven by
• 1:05:56
  objective, moral principles, and an exceptional person would be
• 1:05:59
  somebody who, because of the way their mind or body works, can't
• 1:06:04
  really categorize themselves. The same as the rest of the
• 1:06:08
  world. It's an in your own way, you
• 1:06:10
  have a sort of superpower, which might be being a polymath, for
• 1:06:13
  example. Like, that's not something most
• 1:06:15
  people can do and it probably affects every aspect of how you
• 1:06:18
  think about yourself, how you? Perceive the world.
• 1:06:20
  How you were treated in school, you know, or what they kind of
• 1:06:24
  jobs, you're attracted to that, the the normal mold of how human
• 1:06:28
  life is supposed to go. Doesn't work for you.
• 1:06:30
  You are literally an exception to the rule.
• 1:06:32
  You are part of an exceptional, minority of people.
• 1:06:35
  And so people who are draw driven towards heroin has of
• 1:06:38
  heroism, as I Define it and art have these exceptional kinds of
• 1:06:42
  traits. I think end up being potentially
• 1:06:44
  the most important. And influential people who ever
• 1:06:47
  live, people who accomplish Meaningful things that may go on
• 1:06:51
  to affect the world for Generations.
• 1:06:53
  After they died, they will who will undertake Greek risks and
• 1:06:58
  hardship to do, what is important to them?
• 1:07:00
  Just where we get the concept of the hero's journey from Joseph,
• 1:07:03
  Campbell and every great story ever told somebody feels
• 1:07:06
  compelled to explore out beyond their Ordinary World that they
• 1:07:09
  started in and become part of this special world and and slay
• 1:07:13
  the dragon and bring home the gold or whatever.
• 1:07:17
  You know, we have these mythic types of myths, which is what I
• 1:07:20
  call the introduction mythology in the mentorship of no
• 1:07:24
  mythology, the medium of mentorship.
• 1:07:27
  Yes. I forget the title already but
• 1:07:29
  the point I'm trying to make by introducing the book that way is
• 1:07:31
  that there are reasons we respond to these kinds of
• 1:07:34
  stories because they reflect something in us that must be
• 1:07:37
  applied in real life to that reflects our development more
• 1:07:40
  than just the standard cultural model of go to school, get a
• 1:07:44
  job, get married, have kids, you know?
• 1:07:47
  You're just following instructions because they're
• 1:07:49
  convenient and expected which is the opposite of doing something
• 1:07:53
  heroic and worthwhile, where you do have to risk things and it is
• 1:07:56
  going to be uncomfortable, but the outcome is more important to
• 1:07:59
  you. So that this book is really just
• 1:08:01
  a series of categories of advice for these kinds of people that
• 1:08:07
  they're going to struggle with certain things related to
• 1:08:11
  different, emotional states, different lifestyle obstacles.
• 1:08:14
  They're going to encounter and, you know, how you can, And if
• 1:08:17
  virtuously overcome them without betraying who you are, so it's
• 1:08:22
  tough. Do you have any books in the in
• 1:08:26
  the works that you can tell us about the?
• 1:08:28
  Yeah, I told you about one. That's basically already done
• 1:08:33
  pulled everyone, as an entrepreneur, which is like a
• 1:08:35
  total breakdown of the post-soviet Paradigm regarding
• 1:08:39
  entrepreneurship and business. I really want to get that one
• 1:08:41
  published specifically here in Armenia because it I reference
• 1:08:45
  Armenia, a lot and use examples and I want to like, Show The
• 1:08:48
  Armenian people. This is what you look like to
• 1:08:50
  me. Like what I want you to see that
• 1:08:53
  you can grow Beyond this. I don't want to do it like a
• 1:08:55
  condescending way though. Some of that is kind of
• 1:08:56
  inevitable because I am saying there's something wrong with the
• 1:08:58
  way you see the world and I wanted to show them, they were
• 1:09:01
  there are better ways to see the world.
• 1:09:02
  So nothing wrong with you as a person.
• 1:09:04
  But you have been trained to see things in a very limited way.
• 1:09:08
  And the next one after that is a book about suicide.
• 1:09:12
  Wow. Okay.
• 1:09:13
  Yeah, it's called the courage to live and it's about people who
• 1:09:16
  are existential. Inclined towards
• 1:09:18
  self-determination is that based around personal experience or is
• 1:09:23
  that like you're going to be interviewing people or still?
• 1:09:27
  It's a very, very personal? Yeah.
• 1:09:29
  That's that's what I start the book by saying that I am not
• 1:09:32
  someone you should expect to be have been suicidal because my
• 1:09:36
  life is very easy, I'm financially comfortable.
• 1:09:40
  I've had many friends and lovers, I've been around the
• 1:09:42
  world I and especially now I'm functionally retired at this
• 1:09:46
  point. My life at 30.
• 1:09:47
  Three. Like I'm not somebody whose
• 1:09:49
  struggles and suffers. I am so lazy and so comfortable,
• 1:09:53
  yet. I feel like killing myself, why
• 1:09:56
  is that right? Let's examine.
• 1:09:57
  Where is that coming from this? This existential pervasive sense
• 1:10:02
  of the, I shouldn't be here. The world is incompatible with
• 1:10:05
  me. That's what the book is about.
• 1:10:08
  Well, I must say, Dennis, incredibly Brave to talk about
• 1:10:13
  that kind of topic because I think, I mean, it's a thing that
• 1:10:16
  many of us can come in late. There's people I know that have
• 1:10:19
  felt suicide. I've had friends, Unfortunately,
• 1:10:21
  they have committed suicide and I suppose the biggest question
• 1:10:25
  you always ask yourself is why. And then As you say, when you,
• 1:10:31
  when you look at particular people's lives, like, yeah, I
• 1:10:34
  remember there was a guy that I went to University with and I
• 1:10:36
  wasn't especially close to him. I worked with him a little bit.
• 1:10:41
  Really intelligent Guy, funny, you know, everyone liked him.
• 1:10:49
  Remember the last time I saw him he was it was a bit of a rush to
• 1:10:53
  get somewhere. He was involved in science.
• 1:10:56
  He's a really smart guy and the literally the next week I just
• 1:11:02
  found out about it and I think I was just kind of obviously
• 1:11:10
  really sad but really confused, you know, as I was why like and
• 1:11:15
  often The trend that I seemed to hear.
• 1:11:20
  And what I hear from people when they talk about suicide is
• 1:11:23
  feelings of inadequacy which we can all relate to that you know,
• 1:11:26
  feeling inadequate. And and particularly it is that
• 1:11:31
  an external sense of inadequacy. Like I should have a better job
• 1:11:34
  by now. I should be making more money.
• 1:11:36
  I should have a hotter girl friend, or is it some kind of
• 1:11:38
  internal metric of? I'm not the person.
• 1:11:40
  I know I'm supposed to be so it can be both color mean when I
• 1:11:45
  think about myself, I've, I've had Suicidal Thoughts Sometimes
• 1:11:48
  and I've been close. And I think the thing that
• 1:11:50
  always prevented me was, I tried to think about other people.
• 1:11:55
  I tried to kind of think, you know, it's not all just about me
• 1:11:58
  even though it's my life, you know, you there are always
• 1:12:05
  inevitably people that care about you and they would be
• 1:12:08
  affected by you, you know, choosing that and and that's a
• 1:12:17
  tricky thing, I think to overcome because Part of you
• 1:12:23
  will be like, well, as I said, it's your life like, you know,
• 1:12:28
  and you might even feel like that.
• 1:12:30
  No, not those people don't care in that moment.
• 1:12:31
  But of course they do, you know, and people don't often know the
• 1:12:35
  struggles that you're facing. And one thing that I always tend
• 1:12:38
  to do now is, you know, I mean, I'm terrible at keeping in touch
• 1:12:43
  with people. I'm just, you know, workaholic
• 1:12:46
  and I'm sorry. That's just who I am.
• 1:12:48
  But I always say to people like, hey, Hey, if you need me, I will
• 1:12:54
  be there for you and I mean it, you know, like I'll make, I'll
• 1:12:57
  make time for them all. I'll be there for to our phone
• 1:12:59
  conversation. I'll come and see you, like I
• 1:13:03
  just sit and listen, you know, you just talk to me.
• 1:13:05
  And I just sit and listen and I try to remember to, like, ask
• 1:13:10
  people how they're doing, drop my parents cool.
• 1:13:12
  Drop people messages every once in a while and just check in on
• 1:13:17
  you see how they do it, because I think that is the key.
• 1:13:22
  Elements of this. It's like remembering that
• 1:13:24
  people do care about you. Remembering that.
• 1:13:30
  You do have worth and value and and I think is even more
• 1:13:35
  interesting with what you brought up.
• 1:13:37
  You know? Yeah, you can have it all.
• 1:13:39
  I've had moments even recently in the past couple of weeks,
• 1:13:41
  I've had moments where I'm almost angry at myself for
• 1:13:48
  feeling. Almost depressed, I might work.
• 1:13:52
  How dare you feel that way? Well, what have you got to be
• 1:13:56
  upset? Sad about that.
• 1:13:57
  You should be grateful for what you have.
• 1:13:58
  You should appreciate the beauty of life and don't, you know,
• 1:14:01
  there are starving children in Africa right now, would ya?
• 1:14:04
  And it's and they say, you know, I've had people say this to me
• 1:14:07
  as well that, you know, you shouldn't ever compare yourself
• 1:14:10
  to other people and, you know, even though there are bigger
• 1:14:14
  problems in the world, like your Things your face in your going
• 1:14:18
  through a just as valid then that I agree with that sentiment
• 1:14:21
  too. But I think it's Just different,
• 1:14:24
  you know what it is. It's I always say it's like a
• 1:14:26
  big cloud over your head and it's just it's very it's like a
• 1:14:31
  fog. It's difficult to push that
• 1:14:33
  away. Even when you're hearing people
• 1:14:35
  around, you say the right things and they're you know they're
• 1:14:38
  they're they're doing everything.
• 1:14:39
  They should be, they should be doing, you know, they're
• 1:14:41
  listening, they're they're asking the right questions.
• 1:14:45
  It's like. something's got click like I'll give an example that
• 1:14:50
  there's someone that I know who recently was feeling suicidal
• 1:14:56
  and they they were going to go through with it.
• 1:15:01
  And they told me that they looked at their child, they hold
• 1:15:05
  heard their child from another room.
• 1:15:07
  And suddenly, that just clicked in their head, they were like,
• 1:15:12
  what am I doing? You know, I can't do this.
• 1:15:15
  I got to be here for my child, you know, this is so important.
• 1:15:19
  This is course, I got things to live for, and it's not just
• 1:15:23
  about me, like I said before, it's about others.
• 1:15:25
  It's about these people that rely on media.
• 1:15:28
  And but there's difficulty in that To.
• 1:15:31
  It's like sometimes you feel like you got to be there for
• 1:15:35
  everyone else, but then who's there for me?
• 1:15:39
  You know, and sometimes people will turn around, but are you
• 1:15:41
  being too selfish? But that no, no you need that.
• 1:15:43
  Everyone needs time for themselves, everyone needs.
• 1:15:47
  Sometimes you just need to like just people to be there for you,
• 1:15:52
  you know? like, even if it is just sitting
• 1:15:56
  around and just talking about life or someone listening to you
• 1:16:01
  or whatever, like you just need to feel like But your wife,
• 1:16:05
  something I guess. Yeah.
• 1:16:09
  Well and You know I would never advise someone you should.
• 1:16:14
  The only reason you shouldn't kill yourself is because your
• 1:16:16
  mom will be sad you know, or people people will miss you like
• 1:16:19
  I would ever say you should live solely for other people's sake,
• 1:16:23
  right? Because the point is to find a
• 1:16:24
  reason that you feel is worthwhile and sustainable.
• 1:16:27
  Yeah keep living which might include other people, right?
• 1:16:30
  Like if you have a child and view the obligation
• 1:16:34
  responsibility that comes with that is something important and
• 1:16:37
  sacred that could be a very valuable and important.
• 1:16:40
  Important reason to stay alive. I have chosen this obligation to
• 1:16:44
  raise this child, if I quit. Now I am I am going against my
• 1:16:49
  word and my own values like that's that's what I would say
• 1:16:51
  in the book. Like that's that's a res
• 1:16:53
  potentially profound reason to decide to keep living but not
• 1:16:57
  just because what other people will miss me, if I die.
• 1:16:59
  So I'll just suffer forever because you don't want other
• 1:17:03
  people to be sad. if I may, what was, what was the decision for
• 1:17:11
  you to keep going? Like, well, there hasn't been a
• 1:17:15
  decision for me to keep going. It's a series of ongoing
• 1:17:18
  decisions I haven't chosen to kill myself so that means I've
• 1:17:21
  done. I've chosen to keep living
• 1:17:23
  right. Every day that I choose not to
• 1:17:25
  kill myself as a day. I choose to continue living
• 1:17:27
  right and I don't have the one All it consuming purpose like a
• 1:17:33
  human being. I am directly responsible for.
• 1:17:37
  I I look at the world. I see a series of problems that
• 1:17:40
  I want to solve and that's very motivating to me things like,
• 1:17:44
  you know, torture going on in Azerbaijan that nobody cares
• 1:17:47
  about like I can help solve that problem.
• 1:17:49
  I'm a position to do that, then I will help write that book I
• 1:17:52
  can give advice about something. Someone is struggling with, in a
• 1:17:55
  way that no one else has or will then.
• 1:17:57
  Okay, I will, I will stay here and solve that problem can Can I
• 1:18:01
  do that until I'm 90? I don't know.
• 1:18:03
  Or will something else change? Maybe, when I get married to,
• 1:18:06
  that will change my kin, my entire outlook on things like,
• 1:18:08
  who knows? Amazing stuff.
• 1:18:11
  Thank you for sharing. I appreciate that.
• 1:18:13
  Yeah, speaking a lot about our media and obviously, you usually
• 1:18:19
  grew up in states, that right, California and I grew up in San
• 1:18:22
  Diego, right? And you mentioned that you've
• 1:18:23
  got a grandparent in, you know, from Armenia.
• 1:18:27
  Yeah. Watch me drive your decision to
• 1:18:31
  it to return to Armenia other than obviously I know.
• 1:18:33
  It's for work purposes as well. Was it just work with that other
• 1:18:37
  reasons? Obviously that's a big move from
• 1:18:39
  America to Armenia or drove her decision.
• 1:18:42
  Well, I was spent many years traveling around the world just
• 1:18:46
  out of a sense of curiosity and exploration and I was always
• 1:18:51
  looking for somewhere in feel comfortable spending a long
• 1:18:54
  time, I was able to get the Armenian citizenship because of
• 1:18:57
  my grandmother's Action here. So that made things a lot
• 1:19:00
  easier. But I also just realized I liked
• 1:19:01
  being here and doing nothing. Lots of places are exciting to
• 1:19:06
  go to beaches and Bali and jungles of Costa Rica and Paris
• 1:19:11
  and you know, that's fine. I do miss kind of constantly
• 1:19:15
  going to new places that the novelty was very exciting and
• 1:19:18
  you learn a lot about the world and yourself but I think it's
• 1:19:23
  also nice to have a place where you can just hang out for three
• 1:19:27
  years and feel comfortable. Revolt and added up.
• 1:19:30
  Something about the culture is very old and authentic to me.
• 1:19:33
  The people in general are are like genuine and kind of
• 1:19:38
  intelligent and in a way that is often rare, you know, so most
• 1:19:43
  other places would be difficult for me to really integrate and
• 1:19:45
  feel like I belonged there and this so far, I feel comfortable
• 1:19:49
  here, I can always leave, I have a house here now that I've got a
• 1:19:53
  lot of work into but there's nothing stopping me from.
• 1:19:56
  Well, covid is kind of making it difficult.
• 1:19:58
  But In general, there's no reason I can't travel to other
• 1:20:01
  places have multiple homes or just take vacations in other
• 1:20:04
  places. But until I have a reason to
• 1:20:06
  leave I won't Awesome. What's the best piece of advice
• 1:20:13
  you've ever received? There is advice.
• 1:20:18
  I would have liked to received when I was a teenager or young
• 1:20:21
  adults that I never did unfortunately, and that's
• 1:20:24
  actually one of the themes of the heroic and exceptional
• 1:20:26
  minorities that very few of us are privileged enough to have
• 1:20:29
  sort of a mythological mentor, to look up to the proverbial
• 1:20:34
  Obi-Wan Kenobi, or Gandalf or Dumbledore, or any of these.
• 1:20:38
  These really old wise men that show up in fantasy stories and
• 1:20:41
  guide, the protagonist and say Frodo.
• 1:20:43
  You must take the ring to Mordor Harry, you're a wizard.
• 1:20:46
  You have to learn to use. Force Luke and all that.
• 1:20:49
  There's a reason these patterns exist in stories because they're
• 1:20:52
  really convenient for storytelling.
• 1:20:53
  You know what the quest of the hero is that rarely happens in
• 1:20:57
  real life. If ever like very few of us have
• 1:21:00
  somebody who shows up and uniquely understands us and sees
• 1:21:03
  the journey were on and say that tape listen to me kid, this is
• 1:21:06
  really important. You're going to need to know
• 1:21:07
  this for life, right? I would have liked to have
• 1:21:12
  somebody, tell me Gregory you're not crazy.
• 1:21:15
  You have a really unique way of seeing the world.
• 1:21:17
  And the sooner you realize to embrace that and stop trying to
• 1:21:22
  just accept and fit into the way other people tell you life has
• 1:21:25
  to go the happier, you're going to be, you're going to have to
• 1:21:29
  find your own challenges in your own obstacles to overcome but
• 1:21:32
  stop letting other people dictate the terms of life for
• 1:21:36
  you. That would have been a really
• 1:21:37
  cool piece of advice from somebody.
• 1:21:39
  I respect that and could really believe even if everyone else
• 1:21:41
  was telling me the opposite, Explain device.
• 1:21:44
  Yeah, well switch it up again, with what you've learned so far.
• 1:21:49
  What's the biggest life lesson that you've learned so far?
• 1:21:53
  Oh, everyone is full of shit. Like they just most of the
• 1:22:02
  people who act like they know what they're talking about.
• 1:22:04
  Just don't, I mean, have you noticed this?
• 1:22:07
  You must have noticed this. Yeah, everything is neat up,
• 1:22:10
  everything is improvised and, and arbitrary.
• 1:22:13
  And that's something you learned from traveling a lot.
• 1:22:15
  The people have totally arbitrary ways of doing things
• 1:22:17
  different countries. But everyone is sure that the
• 1:22:18
  way they're doing is the best way to do it.
• 1:22:21
  And there's nothing you can say to them, to get them to realize
• 1:22:23
  that people all winging it. I realized that maybe Because
• 1:22:27
  I'm 28. Now I turned 29 this year and
• 1:22:31
  something in my twenties I've realized is you don't just
• 1:22:34
  become an adult is like you get older, you get wiser, you go
• 1:22:38
  through things, whatever. But you don't, there isn't like
• 1:22:41
  this moment and I kept waiting for that moment when it would
• 1:22:43
  just click and I'll be like, okay I'm and I don't know I'm
• 1:22:46
  wise, it never can never came. Now I just know the right things
• 1:22:49
  to do in every situation. Well, I mean I think approaching
• 1:22:53
  each situation calm and collected is key.
• 1:22:58
  Don't react On Emotion, you know, keep a cool head and all
• 1:23:01
  that. But yeah, it goes back to what
• 1:23:03
  you said. It's a key of like realizing
• 1:23:06
  that most of us are winging it. And we are just trying to kind
• 1:23:10
  of get by and and, and just figure it out.
• 1:23:13
  As we go, there's nothing wrong with that.
• 1:23:14
  I love winging it. I spent my entire twenties,
• 1:23:16
  winging it jumping from country to country, but the problem is,
• 1:23:19
  when you don't acknowledge that, that's what you're doing and you
• 1:23:22
  are I have some kind of authority to tell people.
• 1:23:24
  This is the right way to do it because it's the way I do it
• 1:23:27
  which is what most people are doing the most subjects, right?
• 1:23:31
  It's so true that of just well this seems like a good idea.
• 1:23:35
  Let's try it and see what happens just to acknowledge
• 1:23:38
  that. That's what you're doing.
• 1:23:39
  Sure, as we draw things to a close for today.
• 1:23:43
  Do you have any upcoming projects or final thoughts you'd
• 1:23:45
  like to share with our listeners if you want to Beta read?
• 1:23:52
  My next book, send me an email that's really helpful part of
• 1:23:55
  the process, getting early feedback from people.
• 1:23:58
  Otherwise check out my books on Amazon or go to my personal
• 1:24:01
  website Gregory deal dotnet deal is spelled EI e HL or my
• 1:24:06
  publishing website is identity. Publications.com been an
• 1:24:11
  absolute pleasure having you on the show Gregory.
• 1:24:13
  Thank you so much for being such a wonderful guest and yeah, it's
• 1:24:17
  best of luck with everything that you're doing.
• 1:24:19
  It's all, yes, thanks. Thanks for the cool talk.
• 1:24:22
  Excellent. And thank you very much to all
• 1:24:25
  the listeners of the Christian re podcast.
• 1:24:27
  I hope you've enjoyed this episode, let me know your
• 1:24:29
  thoughts. Let me know who you'd like to
• 1:24:31
  see on the show next and as always be safe, be well and I'll
• 1:24:35
  see you in the next.