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Off Record: Deadly Greed · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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Speaker 2: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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Speaker 2: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
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Speaker 2: Exactly Right Media. Welcome to The Knife off Record. I'm
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Speaker 2: patia Eton, I'm Hannah Smith. If you've been listening to
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Speaker 2: the show and enjoying it, it would help us out
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Speaker 2: We're still a new show, so it really does help
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Speaker 2: to get the word out. Also, a quick reminder, we
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Speaker 2: have merch We have a really cute tote bag with
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Speaker 2: our logo on it. You can find that at exactly
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Speaker 2: rightstore dot com. So I have a story for you
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Speaker 2: today that involves some up to no good stuff, a murder,
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Speaker 2: and then they flee the country.
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Speaker 1: Wow. So this is sort of like what a hit? Yeah,
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Speaker 1: we're gonna hit every beat here. Okay, I'm ready. I'm
1:08
Speaker 1: ready for a good story. And it's a tough one. Okay,
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Speaker 1: all right.
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Speaker 2: So today's story begins in North York, Ontario. It's two
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Speaker 2: thousand and eight, and two students in different social circles
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Speaker 2: are in their final years of preparatory school.
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Speaker 1: Wait, is that like high school? Yeah, okay, it sounds
1:27
Speaker 1: so much smarter. I know from Canada. It's preparatory Britory. Okay.
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Speaker 2: So one of these students is Lucy Lee, and she's
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Speaker 2: introverted and studious, and just briefly she dates this very
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Speaker 2: extraverted popular guy named Oliver Krafa. So, Oliver is actually
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Speaker 2: from Slovakia, but he's attending school in Canada. His whole
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Speaker 2: family moved there. He's from money. His parents owned bakeries
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Speaker 2: in Slovakia, and when he turns sixteen, his parents, who
2:00
Speaker 2: are wealthy, decide they want to.
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Speaker 1: Move back to Slovakia. Yeah. Wow, Yeah, So was he
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Speaker 1: born in the US? No, hell, in Canada, Canada. He
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Speaker 1: is from Slovakia, I think, Okay, and so he's born there.
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Speaker 2: They moved to Ontario. But when he's a teenager at sixteen,
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Speaker 2: his parents are like, we're moving back, and so what
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Speaker 2: do they do? They say, you can stay here at sixteen. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: So he and his two sisters get an apartment and,
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Speaker 2: according to classmates, basically had credit cards and free reign.
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Speaker 1: Wow. And his sisters are younger than him, they're older, older,
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Speaker 1: so there's like a legal adult somewhere in there. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: I think they were all teenagers, I think, but it
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Speaker 2: sounds like they were doing whatever they wanted and buying
2:47
Speaker 2: whatever they wanted.
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Speaker 1: It was a free for all. Wow. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: So all of our's relationship with Lucy ends pretty quickly,
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Speaker 2: and neither one of them seems to think very much
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Speaker 2: of it. They graduate and go about their lives. So Oliver,
3:02
Speaker 2: after graduating, he starts partying, and not as surprise, not
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Speaker 2: as surprise or I heard, yeah, like, what do you do?
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Speaker 1: You're sixteen. You have your own apartment and credit cards
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Speaker 1: at that age, so you graduate from high school and
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Speaker 1: now you're ready to like buckle in and go to
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Speaker 1: school every day. Not going to happen.
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Speaker 2: So he's like all over the party scene, and he's
3:22
Speaker 2: really into this idea being an entrepreneur and making a
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Speaker 2: lot of money. I mean, he watched his parents their
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Speaker 2: successful entrepreneur, so I see where he kind of got
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Speaker 2: the itch. And Lucy goes to university and she starts
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Speaker 2: studying and by all accounts is doing well there. And
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Speaker 2: so on April third, twenty twelve, after a night out
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Speaker 2: with friends, he's behind the wheel of his range rover.
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Speaker 2: He's been drinking heavily, and his friend David is in
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Speaker 2: the passenger seat, and Oliver hits the gas and the
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Speaker 2: car reaches speeds over double the speed limit, which was
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Speaker 2: about over sixty miles an hour, and he hits a
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Speaker 2: pole and the car, it's the rain driver, is a
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Speaker 2: huge car and it splits in half. My god, yeah,
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Speaker 2: and so half of the car ends up just on
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Speaker 2: the other side of the street. I mean, it's a
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Speaker 2: devastating accident. And Oliver walks away almost unscathed. He has
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Speaker 2: like a few scrapes, right, but David is dead.
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Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, I mean it's terrible. And he
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Speaker 1: was drinking and driving. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: His blood alcohol limit was nearly four times the legal limit. God,
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Speaker 2: it's not just drinking but like wasted, never have been driving. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: And there's no like drinking and driving that's safe. But
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Speaker 2: she was belligerently drunk. So David was twenty four at
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Speaker 2: the time, and he passes away. He's killed instantly in
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Speaker 2: the crash. It's so sad. And Oliver is then charged
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Speaker 2: with criminal negligence causing death, dangerous driving causing death, and
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Speaker 2: impaired driving causing death. You know, the crash was so
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Speaker 2: severe that actually, even though David was wearing his seat belt,
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Speaker 2: he was projected from the vehicle God like it was
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Speaker 2: really bad. He was a personal trainer, That's how he
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Speaker 2: knew Oliver as Oliver was his client and they became friends.
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Speaker 2: And I actually saw the CCTV footage of Oliver being
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Speaker 2: walked into the police station that night after the crash,
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Speaker 2: and I'm not discounting anything about what he did, but
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Speaker 2: he looks like a child. I think he was nineteen
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Speaker 2: at the time that this happened. And thinking back to
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Speaker 2: how he's been living in this apartment alone since he
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Speaker 2: was sixteen.
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Speaker 1: No adult supervision, really just sort of being allowed to
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Speaker 1: do whatever he wants to do for years. Exactly. It's
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Speaker 1: no excuse, but like you can see how life choices
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Speaker 1: would lead him to a place where he's reckless. Reckless, yeah,
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Speaker 1: totally reckless. And in this footage of him being walked
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Speaker 1: into the police station, he asks, is David okay? He's
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Speaker 1: told David is dead in that moment, and he seems
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Speaker 1: in the footage very upset, you know, he is, obviously,
6:00
Speaker 1: but he doesn't seem like he thinks he's walking out
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Speaker 1: of there yeah, but according to friends of both of theirs,
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Speaker 1: because they knew a lot of mutual people because Oliver
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Speaker 1: was going to the gym David worked at, that crowd
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Speaker 1: started to say that Oliver was very quickly more worried
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Speaker 1: about if he was going to jail than remorseful about
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Speaker 1: causing the crash that killed his friend. Interesting, and so
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Speaker 1: were they or do we know, like were they talking
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Speaker 1: to him.
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Speaker 2: I don't know that he was talking to them, but
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Speaker 2: I think that they were all still running in the
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Speaker 2: same social circle. Because although he was arrested and charged,
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Speaker 2: he gets a lawyer and he fights the charges.
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Speaker 1: I think he ends up pleading, but does he get
6:42
Speaker 1: out on bail? Yeah, So what.
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Speaker 2: Ends up happening is Oliver is sentenced to five years
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Speaker 2: imprisonment and banned from driving for fifteen years. I'm pretty
6:53
Speaker 2: sure he pled guilty to those charges and decided okay,
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Speaker 2: five years, and then he's banned from driving for fifteen years, which, like,
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Speaker 2: I'm fine with that. I mean that it's a clearly
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Speaker 2: long time, but it's also you did kill someone. And
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Speaker 2: so he was twenty one by the time he was sentenced,
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Speaker 2: and at sentencing he did express remorse and take responsibility
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Speaker 2: for his actions, and you know, I can't totally say
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Speaker 2: how I feel about the sentence. Nineteen is really young,
7:22
Speaker 2: but yeah, like we're saying he lived without his parents
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Speaker 2: and any supervision from sixteen on, So that is a
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Speaker 2: recipe for disaster. But there's a lot of people that
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Speaker 2: grow up in difficult situations and they don't behave that way.
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Speaker 2: So so Oliver gets to prison and you know, although
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Speaker 2: he's expressed remorse at his sentencing he's killed his friend
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Speaker 2: by driving recklessly, he pretty quickly starts to just think,
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Speaker 2: how can I get out of here?
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Speaker 1: How can I get out early?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's not following the rules. He's attempting to smuggle
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Speaker 2: drugs into the prison, which allegedly his sisters were the
7:59
Speaker 2: people that we're trying to help.
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Speaker 1: Him do that. Wow. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: And so still despite those things, he's granted parole in
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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, so three years into his five year sentence.
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Speaker 1: Ooh yeah, that is so surprising.
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Speaker 2: I was surprised by that too, because this is his
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Speaker 2: first offense, right, and he's only nineteen when he sentenced,
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Speaker 2: and so you think about how does our justice system
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Speaker 2: best function? Now this is in Canada, but like for
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Speaker 2: all of us universally. I think, if we're going to
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Speaker 2: put someone in prison for crime, let's make it count
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Speaker 2: so that they don't do this again, so that when
8:34
Speaker 2: they get out there a changed person. There's a lot
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Speaker 2: of issues with prison systems all over the world.
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Speaker 1: One could argue that has been never really rehabilt right people.
8:44
Speaker 1: I'm in about never. But it's not like known to
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Speaker 1: be this great rehabilitation right situation. But yeah, it's so
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Speaker 1: complicated because obviously he was really young. A lot of
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Speaker 1: us have been really young and dumb and made bad choices,
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Speaker 1: you know, but his choice took the life of someone else,
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Speaker 1: which is a really big deal. And so three years
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Speaker 1: it just doesn't seem like that much to me.
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Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean I can imagine how David's friends
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Speaker 2: and family felt about that for three years, especially when
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Speaker 2: he wasn't behaving in prison. Yeah, And so what we
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Speaker 2: start to see when this happens is, at least from
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Speaker 2: my perspective, Oliver sort of developing this really reinforcing this
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Speaker 2: idea that there are no real consequences.
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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, because like it's not like he got away
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Speaker 1: with anything. He still went to prison, But there is
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Speaker 1: a vibe about him that I don't know, right because
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Speaker 1: I only know what you're telling me, But I can
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Speaker 1: kind of imagine this kind of guy. He seems really confident, like, yeah,
9:48
Speaker 1: he's got a range over it the world. Yeah, everything
9:52
Speaker 1: has given to him. So there's a certain kind of
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Speaker 1: attitude there that you're like, do you think you're invincible?
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Speaker 2: Yeah? You I think you're invincible. And so as soon
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Speaker 2: as he gets out, Oliver is ready to leave his
10:05
Speaker 2: old identity behind. You know, I think he probably did
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Speaker 2: have some shame and embarrassment about the accident causing the
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Speaker 2: death of his friend and being sentenced to prison, but
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Speaker 2: it doesn't really seem to be enough to get him
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Speaker 2: to reflect about the kind of person he wants to be.
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Speaker 2: And he starts just like very quickly new business ventures.
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Speaker 2: He's thinking entrepreneurial, but it's fast and loose as far
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Speaker 2: as like business plans and money. There's a long list
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Speaker 2: of businesses he starts and they all fail. What kind
10:35
Speaker 2: of businesses are we talking here?
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Speaker 1: Yeah?
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Speaker 2: So on his LinkedIn, which is still up at the
10:41
Speaker 2: time we're recording this, at least, the about me section reads,
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Speaker 2: I combine my passion for success with my passion for marketing, communications,
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Speaker 2: and storytelling, and as we get into it, I think
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Speaker 2: we'll see where the storytelling really takes Shaye, but he
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Speaker 2: opens a restaurant called Food Society on the ground floor
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Speaker 2: of a home hotel and attempts to be the sort
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Speaker 2: of brunch coffee shop situation. You know, you can kind
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Speaker 2: of see the tie back to like being from a
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Speaker 2: family that owns bakery.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
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Speaker 2: It fails very quickly, and he moves on to the
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Speaker 2: next idea, and that is something called Zen Home Mart,
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Speaker 2: which is a drop shipping business, and then something called I.
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Speaker 1: Think it's pronounced insul Act.
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Speaker 2: I'm not sure, but the idea behind that third company
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Speaker 2: is that it's a subscription insulin to people.
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Speaker 1: In the US. And it also quickly fails.
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Speaker 2: So you can see like, Okay, you can kind of
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Speaker 2: make the connection with the restaurant and then you're onto
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Speaker 2: drop shipping and then you're onto insulin subscriptions.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels very much strange. Strange. I don't know.
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Speaker 1: I feel like there's drop shipping businesses. I don't even
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Speaker 1: know what that is. I feel like it's like every
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Speaker 1: time I'm advertised somehow, I don't know how this is
11:54
Speaker 1: in my algorithm for like start a business and like
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Speaker 1: make a ton of money quickly, it's always drop shipping.
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Speaker 1: Oh okay, And I mean, like, you know, there are
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Speaker 1: people that have created very successful drop shipping endeavors. But
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Speaker 1: for some reason, it pings to me something about someone
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Speaker 1: who is a young entrepreneur who's trying to make money
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Speaker 1: quickly and thinks I'll just get into drop shipping, right,
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Speaker 1: but might not actually really know what he's doing.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, or maybe have taken the time to like learn
12:21
Speaker 2: and maybe come up underneath someone else and shadow them
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Speaker 2: and understand the business, because, you know, to build these businesses,
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Speaker 2: he's taking on investors, he's getting money from people.
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Speaker 1: Interesting, and so it's not just funded by his parents. No,
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Speaker 1: I don't think so.
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Speaker 2: And that is I think one of the most perplexing
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Speaker 2: things about Alliver and so many people that we come
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Speaker 2: to learn maybe are not good business people is that
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Speaker 2: they have this charisma, they have this ability to raise money,
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Speaker 2: they have lots of ideas.
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Speaker 1: It is so wild, how truly, if you want to
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Speaker 1: raise money for a business, you need charisma. And how
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Speaker 1: many people like actually aren't that good at business? I know,
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Speaker 1: maybe don't even have that good of a plan, but
13:06
Speaker 1: are just able to convince people that they do and
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Speaker 1: that they're trustworthy and that yes, you should give me
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Speaker 1: your money. I mean it's like, yeah.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, because at this point, you know, this guy is
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Speaker 2: so young, he's in his twenties. Yeah, and he's already
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Speaker 2: gone to prison. I mean, if he can do it,
13:23
Speaker 2: and so I can't HiPE right and son, And you know,
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Speaker 2: failure is part of being an entrepreneur, sure, and so
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Speaker 2: I don't want it to seem like these business failures
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Speaker 2: in and of themselves are indicative of anything. But yeah,
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Speaker 2: what it shows us is he's I think, hell bent
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Speaker 2: on making a lot of money really quick. And so
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Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, Oliver reconnects with Lucy.
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Speaker 1: Oh okay, and you.
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Speaker 2: Know she was this introverted, studious girl from preparatory school.
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Speaker 1: This is about ten years after they originally dated. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: a whole decade. Yeah. Interesting.
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Speaker 2: So they're now adults and they're very different, but life
14:00
Speaker 2: all of her. Lucy comes from a wealthy family, okay,
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Speaker 2: and her parents are financial advisors and business owners. And
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Speaker 2: after graduating at first, it seems like she's following suit, right,
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Speaker 2: she goes to university. She does really well she got
14:13
Speaker 2: a job selling insurance, which acquired her to obtain this
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Speaker 2: accreditation to do that, and she starts working for her
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Speaker 2: mother as a financial advisor. But like one of Oliver's
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Speaker 2: money businesses, Lucy's career didn't quite last and she decided, Okay,
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Speaker 2: I'm going to take a few years off, and she
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Speaker 2: goes to her parents with this plan, I'm going to
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Speaker 2: take a few years off and try to figure out
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Speaker 2: what I want to do. She's really intrigued by social
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Speaker 2: media and fun fact, Lucy's a triplet.
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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so she has two sisters and they all look
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Speaker 2: very similar. They're fraternal triplets, but they look very similar.
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Speaker 2: So Lucy's mother agrees and she gives her an allowance
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Speaker 2: of five thousand dollars a month. What a dream, What
14:53
Speaker 2: a dream. That's a great allowance. And Lucy's sort of
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Speaker 2: drawn to the limelight. And she finds her light on TikTok.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, which makes sense because you said it's like twenty eighteen, yeah,
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Speaker 1: and she's in her mid to late twenties. So that
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Speaker 1: I feel like this all lines up with maybe feeling
15:11
Speaker 1: a little disillusioned by the career path, wanting to do
15:14
Speaker 1: something different and creative. Plus social media is popping off,
15:16
Speaker 1: so totally all adding up. Yeah, Like, nothing wrong with that.
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Speaker 1: Go see if you can make money on TikTok. Like, great,
15:23
Speaker 1: good for you.
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Speaker 2: Her and her sisters start a TikTok page where they
15:27
Speaker 2: all take pictures together in similar outfits. Some of the
15:31
Speaker 2: outfits are pretty risque. I don't really have an opinion
15:34
Speaker 2: on that. I'm just giving you, you know, some imagery here,
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Speaker 2: Like she's promoting herself online a lot, and she's no
15:42
Speaker 2: longer this quiet, introverted girl that she was when they
15:45
Speaker 2: first dated. Actually, an article in the Toronto Sun called
15:49
Speaker 2: her a rich girl social media darling. Yeah, so, I mean,
15:56
Speaker 2: I don't know. TikTok is interesting, right. Sometimes I watch
15:58
Speaker 2: those people where their a whole it's just them watching
16:02
Speaker 2: someone else's video. Yeah, and I'm like, well, that's a
16:05
Speaker 2: sweet gig. Yeah, You're just sitting there staring at the
16:07
Speaker 2: camera and then you just you're done.
16:10
Speaker 1: Yeah. But truly, it's like with the rise of TikTok,
16:13
Speaker 1: I feel like we see people trying to figure out
16:18
Speaker 1: what the thing is that will catch fire, and even
16:22
Speaker 1: if it's a simple idea of like watching someone else's video,
16:26
Speaker 1: and commenting on it. Someone had to be the first
16:28
Speaker 1: one to think of that and then try it, and
16:31
Speaker 1: then it's like, actually, there's a ton of people that
16:33
Speaker 1: want to watch just this content, right, So you know,
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Speaker 1: I think it's kind of like Lucy sounds like she's
16:40
Speaker 1: like of her time and generation where everyone, you know,
16:43
Speaker 1: all these young people are sort of trying to figure
16:45
Speaker 1: out how to get famous online. And the fact that
16:48
Speaker 1: she's a triplet, she's kind of leaning into that little
16:51
Speaker 1: niche thing.
16:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, and she's got a sweet allowance, so yeah,
16:56
Speaker 2: go do it. See what you can make happen with that,
16:58
Speaker 2: you know. I mean, at least she's doing something totally.
17:01
Speaker 2: So twenty eighteen, they're back together, and oh they get
17:04
Speaker 2: back together. Yeah, they get back together after they meet,
17:07
Speaker 2: and it's pretty fast and furious, and they're both very
17:11
Speaker 2: drawn to this idea of wealth and maybe a little
17:14
Speaker 2: bit of fame, but I think money was something they
17:17
Speaker 2: really connected on. Christine Okay, Yeah, and they move in
17:20
Speaker 2: really quickly. One article I read about this said after two.
17:25
Speaker 1: Dates, Oh my gosh, that is quick. Yeah.
17:27
Speaker 2: I wasn't able to figure out if she lived alone
17:29
Speaker 2: or with her sisters. But they move in together very quickly,
17:32
Speaker 2: and of course all of hers still can't drive, right,
17:35
Speaker 2: So she's driving him everywhere in her Mercedes I think,
17:38
Speaker 2: some sort of luxury car that she owns. And everyone
17:41
Speaker 2: is different and every relationship is different. This stopped me
17:45
Speaker 2: in my tracks. I do not drive my husband. I
17:49
Speaker 2: am there to relax and get feedback.
17:52
Speaker 1: Okay, like I'm not going to be driving him. This
17:55
Speaker 1: would be a deal breaker. It's a deal breaker. If
17:56
Speaker 1: he loses his license, we are going nowhere. My gosh, Yeah,
18:01
Speaker 1: I do enough. I do enough. You need someone in
18:04
Speaker 1: the relationship who likes to drive. Yeah, you know, that's key.
18:07
Speaker 1: But it sounds like she didn't really have a choice.
18:09
Speaker 2: She had to be the driver, like red flag. So
18:19
Speaker 2: after two years of dating, COVID happens and Oliver and
18:24
Speaker 2: Lucy decide they cannot stay in lockdown that is so boring.
18:29
Speaker 2: They need a European vacation. Wow, but there's a problem.
18:34
Speaker 2: Lucy can't travel due to travel restrictions because she's Canadian.
18:39
Speaker 2: Oliver is Slovakian, and so he's allowed to travel to
18:43
Speaker 2: Europe because the rules are different.
18:45
Speaker 1: Was there a travel restriction on Canadians not being able
18:48
Speaker 1: to leave Canada.
18:49
Speaker 2: So there were travel restrictions on Canadian citizens and not
18:53
Speaker 2: on Oliver. Yes Slovakians. And so they solve this problem
18:59
Speaker 2: by getting married at the airport via zoom. Okay, So
19:04
Speaker 2: I don't know how they pulled that off, but okay, yeah.
19:08
Speaker 2: So so they go to the airport and that's how
19:11
Speaker 2: they find out that she can't travel, and they're like, okay,
19:14
Speaker 2: well we'll just get married right now, right now, and
19:18
Speaker 2: then that should be able to allow her to travel immediately.
19:21
Speaker 1: I guess. So wow, yeah, you know, I got married
19:25
Speaker 1: in my living room in between zoom calls. I'm not
19:28
Speaker 1: knocking a zoom wedding, but it's quick, okay, Like that
19:33
Speaker 1: is wild at in airport last minute. So those the
19:35
Speaker 1: logistics of it alone, it's like how did they find
19:38
Speaker 1: someone to marry them?
19:40
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I know, anything's possible. Very again resourceful.
19:44
Speaker 2: So they go and they go on this European vacation.
19:48
Speaker 2: They're I think they're there for a couple of months,
19:50
Speaker 2: and while they're over there, Oliver gets an idea. He's like,
19:55
Speaker 2: here's a business I could get into. I could sell
19:58
Speaker 2: personal protective equipment.
20:00
Speaker 1: Okay, ppe, yep.
20:02
Speaker 2: In Europe there was a shortage. That's how he gets
20:04
Speaker 2: the idea. And so when they get back, oliverur meets
20:08
Speaker 2: someone named Tyler Pratt. Now Tyler Pratt, he's an alleged
20:13
Speaker 2: drug dealer. He has a lot of money. You know,
20:17
Speaker 2: I'll get into the alleged drug dealer part of this leader,
20:21
Speaker 2: but for context, that's how he's got money, supposedly, And
20:24
Speaker 2: he puts in a total of four hundred and seventy
20:27
Speaker 2: thousand dollars. And they become fast friends, you know, they
20:32
Speaker 2: get birthday gifts and lots of text back and forth.
20:35
Speaker 2: They go on double dates because Tyler has a girlfriend
20:37
Speaker 2: named Jordan Romano, and.
20:40
Speaker 1: All is well.
20:41
Speaker 2: But of course Oliver is not great at running businesses,
20:45
Speaker 2: and pretty soon Tyler.
20:47
Speaker 1: Wants some money back.
20:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they met allegedly.
20:51
Speaker 1: God, all right, I'm imagining this business is purchasing ppe
20:55
Speaker 1: from somewhere and then selling it to people in Europe. Yeah.
21:00
Speaker 1: But somehow, but somehow, he's the business is failing. Yeah,
21:05
Speaker 1: I imagine that Oliver spent the money. Yeah. I feel
21:09
Speaker 1: like something else is going on, because like this is
21:12
Speaker 1: a pretty straightforward business plan. I mean, I don't know,
21:14
Speaker 1: I haven't seen his business plan. But yeah, this is
21:16
Speaker 1: something in high demand. Unless he thought he could do
21:19
Speaker 1: it and then couldn't source it anywhere, it just doesn't
21:21
Speaker 1: make sense. How is this an immediate failure? He must
21:24
Speaker 1: be spending the money.
21:26
Speaker 2: Well, allegedly Tyler met them because he was selling cocaine
21:31
Speaker 2: to Lucy, gotcha. So I don't know what the extent
21:34
Speaker 2: of their drug use was, but allegedly that.
21:37
Speaker 1: Is how he met Lucy.
21:39
Speaker 2: Okay, But Tyler wants his money back and he's not
21:43
Speaker 2: getting it, and Oliver's got a lot of excuses. Tyler's
21:47
Speaker 2: a father, he has two daughters from a previous relationship,
21:52
Speaker 2: and he is a very involved dad. He loves his kids.
21:57
Speaker 2: And so Tyler is going to he's a victim in
22:00
Speaker 2: this story. And so I just want to say, yeah,
22:04
Speaker 2: he was an alleged drug dealer, but I think it's
22:06
Speaker 2: relevant for a context, but it doesn't diminish what ends
22:09
Speaker 2: up happening.
22:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, all different kinds of drug dealers too, right now.
22:12
Speaker 1: And it's a job, it's a job.
22:16
Speaker 2: And so Jordan Romano, Tyler's girlfriend, becomes pregnant, and after
22:22
Speaker 2: Tyler starts getting the idea that you know, Oliver's not
22:27
Speaker 2: being honest, because he's seeing documents come in that don't
22:29
Speaker 2: necessarily look real. There are fake invoices and fake reimbursements
22:34
Speaker 2: and just Tyler's no dummy.
22:36
Speaker 1: He's like, this has investment scam written all over it.
22:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so eventually he's like, I'm going to put
22:41
Speaker 2: a date on this, and you're going to pay me back.
22:45
Speaker 2: And so that date is March first, twenty twenty one.
22:49
Speaker 2: He says, you're going to pay me back by then
22:51
Speaker 2: with interest, gotcha. But Oliver can't pay him back. He
22:55
Speaker 2: has done something with the money.
22:56
Speaker 1: I don't know what.
22:57
Speaker 2: Maybe he's just a lazzy businessman. Maybe they spent it
22:59
Speaker 2: on drugs and partying. But he's not paying him back.
23:03
Speaker 2: So Oliver and Lucy hatch a plan and the plan
23:07
Speaker 2: that I'm going to tell you that they carry out
23:10
Speaker 2: when we get into this whole thing coming to light.
23:13
Speaker 2: They have different stories on how this came to be,
23:16
Speaker 2: but Oliver and Lucy do Oliver and Lucy, but this
23:19
Speaker 2: is what happened. So, although Tyler wants his money back
23:23
Speaker 2: from Oliver, probably like any smart businessman, Tyler is not
23:28
Speaker 2: totally cutting Oliver off, right. He's trying to maintain the
23:33
Speaker 2: friendship in a way.
23:34
Speaker 1: Because he doesn't want to just ghost him and never
23:37
Speaker 1: hear from a Mercy his money again, I imagine.
23:39
Speaker 2: And so Oliver and Lucy decide what they're going to
23:41
Speaker 2: do is kind of throw out this hail Mary one
23:45
Speaker 2: more business idea for Tyler. And the idea that they
23:50
Speaker 2: have is that they're going to lure Tyler to a
23:53
Speaker 2: warehouse under the guise of the warehouse being a property
23:58
Speaker 2: owned by Lucy's parents where they can maybe have a
24:01
Speaker 2: marijuana growing operation. Okay, that's you know why I think
24:06
Speaker 2: Tyler being an alleged drug dealer is relevant is that
24:09
Speaker 2: this could be appealing to him, gotcha. And so they
24:13
Speaker 2: plan to meet him there on February twenty eighth, twenty
24:17
Speaker 2: twenty one, so right before this March first date. And
24:20
Speaker 2: the plan is that they're going to meet at this warehouse.
24:23
Speaker 2: They're going to look through it, kind of talk about
24:26
Speaker 2: this marijuana grow operation, and then they are going to
24:30
Speaker 2: go to dinner at this like celebrity hot spot. So
24:33
Speaker 2: Jordan is with Tyler and they show up and it's nighttime,
24:38
Speaker 2: and Lucy and Oliver are there, and Tyler and Jordan
24:41
Speaker 2: are there at this warehouse and Lucy and Oliver get
24:44
Speaker 2: there first, and there's a chain on the gate because
24:46
Speaker 2: Lucy's parents don't own this warehouse. This is all completely
24:49
Speaker 2: made up. This is just a remote location for them
24:52
Speaker 2: to do something awful, and so Oliver cuts the chain.
24:56
Speaker 2: They go to the door of this warehouse and Tyler arrives,
25:00
Speaker 2: Jordan and their range over and.
25:02
Speaker 1: So is Jordan's still pregnant? Yes, at this time, I
25:06
Speaker 1: think Jordan's twelve weeks pregnant. She's pregnant.
25:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Tyler and Jordan arrive at the warehouse and
25:12
Speaker 2: meet Oliver and Lucy there.
25:14
Speaker 1: As expected.
25:15
Speaker 2: Tyler and Jordan go meet them at the door, and
25:18
Speaker 2: then it's really cold outside. It's February and we're in Ontario.
25:22
Speaker 2: So Jordan's like, I'm going to go wait in the
25:24
Speaker 2: car because Oliver is like, I don't know where the
25:27
Speaker 2: realtor is who's supposed to let us in and show
25:29
Speaker 2: us the property, and they're taking forever. It's like sort
25:33
Speaker 2: of strange, and Tyler's like okay, And so Jordan goes
25:37
Speaker 2: and waits in the car, and Lucy's like, you know,
25:39
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go wait in the car with you because
25:40
Speaker 2: it's cold and apparently in the car, Lucy and Jordan
25:44
Speaker 2: are kind of making small talk, but it gets kind
25:47
Speaker 2: of awkward because Jordan's like, this is strange, and Lucy
25:50
Speaker 2: gets then out of the car. What happens next is
25:53
Speaker 2: Tyler is like, okay, Oliver, what's really going on here?
25:57
Speaker 2: And Oliver then points out gun at Jordan in the
26:03
Speaker 2: range rover and says something to the effect of get
26:05
Speaker 2: out of here, Joe. But as he's saying that, he
26:08
Speaker 2: starts shooting and he fires I think three shots at Jordan,
26:13
Speaker 2: who's in the driver's seat of the car, and one
26:16
Speaker 2: of the shots goes through her heart. Oh my god, Yeah,
26:20
Speaker 2: it hits her right in the chest. Then of course
26:22
Speaker 2: Tyler is like, what is happening. Tyler and Jordan were
26:26
Speaker 2: not armed, right, They were there to meet their friends
26:29
Speaker 2: for the night and explore this opportunity with them. Yeah,
26:33
Speaker 2: And so in the next moment, Oliver shoots at Tyler.
26:38
Speaker 2: I think he shoots five times, and Tyler falls to
26:41
Speaker 2: the ground. It's terrible. He shoots him through the lungs
26:44
Speaker 2: and his lungs begin filling with blood, and I think
26:47
Speaker 2: it takes like an hour until he passes away.
26:50
Speaker 1: I mean, it's horrible.
26:52
Speaker 2: And while this is happening, it's unclear where Lucy is.
26:56
Speaker 2: She goes on to say, oh, I was so far away.
26:59
Speaker 2: I was there, but I'm like, well, you were sitting
27:01
Speaker 2: in the car with Jordan, so.
27:02
Speaker 1: Then you got out and where did you go? Right?
27:05
Speaker 2: And so what Oliver and Lucy do next is they
27:09
Speaker 2: go to the car where Jordan is, where she's been shot,
27:12
Speaker 2: and they take her out of the car and throw
27:15
Speaker 2: her on the pavement. They go and get the cash
27:18
Speaker 2: that Tyler had on him, which was twenty thousand dollars.
27:21
Speaker 2: They take their phones from them, from Tyler and from Jordan,
27:25
Speaker 2: and they take the Range Drover that Tyler and Jordan
27:29
Speaker 2: arrived in and they're Audie. They're audi that they had
27:33
Speaker 2: purchased right before this. And they leave and Oliver had
27:39
Speaker 2: arranged for someone to buy both of these cars.
27:42
Speaker 1: So they just leave Tyler and Jordan laying there, Yeah,
27:46
Speaker 1: for dead, dying. Yeah.
27:48
Speaker 2: They pulled Jordan out of the car so violently that
27:50
Speaker 2: one of her like knee high boots came off. I mean,
27:53
Speaker 2: if you've ever pulled off a knee high boot like
27:55
Speaker 2: that's not easy to do. Yeah, And so they flee
27:59
Speaker 2: and their whole plan is now really taking shape. Oliver
28:03
Speaker 2: has pre arranged for.
28:04
Speaker 1: Someone to buy these cars in a shady deal for
28:07
Speaker 1: really cheap to get them, she means it was premeditated.
28:10
Speaker 1: Pre meditated, yeah, And so he sells these cars really
28:14
Speaker 1: quickly to this person, and they go back to another
28:17
Speaker 1: friend's condo. And they go to this other friend's condo
28:21
Speaker 1: because earlier that day they had said, we need to
28:24
Speaker 1: borrow your SIM card because they didn't want their cell
28:27
Speaker 1: phones traced to this warehouse, okay, and the friend was
28:31
Speaker 1: under the impression that they were going to this warehouse
28:34
Speaker 1: for this big meeting that they didn't want Lucy's parents
28:37
Speaker 1: to know about because they would be upset by it
28:40
Speaker 1: for some reason. So they didn't know anything about these
28:43
Speaker 1: murders taking place. They get their SIM card back, and
28:47
Speaker 1: then they go to Lucy's condo. They're shared condo where
28:50
Speaker 1: they live, right and they watch the news and they
28:54
Speaker 1: see on the news that Jordan has flagged down a motorist.
28:59
Speaker 1: She did not die, and that motorist called nine one
29:02
Speaker 1: one and Jordan is alive. Oh my gosh. And so
29:06
Speaker 1: they had already acquired fake identification, fake passports, already planned
29:12
Speaker 1: I think to flee, but now they're like, oh, shoot,
29:16
Speaker 1: she can tell them exactly what happened. So in theory,
29:19
Speaker 1: because Jordan, you know, has been taken to a hospital,
29:22
Speaker 1: we assume we don't even know, like she might have
29:25
Speaker 1: already told authorities who.
29:27
Speaker 2: It was, right, Like, they don't know anything except that
29:31
Speaker 2: Jordan didn't die, okay, which has to have been a
29:35
Speaker 2: crucial part of their plan to keep this secret. Yeah,
29:38
Speaker 2: And so they go around the city dumping any evidence.
29:42
Speaker 2: I mean, their clothes or blood stained for example. And
29:45
Speaker 2: Lucy had a wig on at some point, like a
29:47
Speaker 2: blonde wig. And so they're going and they're dumping the
29:50
Speaker 2: evidence and they flee. And their first move is that
29:54
Speaker 2: they're flying to Montreal and from there they bought a
29:58
Speaker 2: flight and get to Europe and they go to Slovakia
30:01
Speaker 2: because that's where Oliver's parents live, and eventually to Hungary. Okay,
30:07
Speaker 2: And they use these fake passports that they've acquired and
30:10
Speaker 2: I'm not sure where they were obtained, but it was
30:12
Speaker 2: obviously in preparation for these murders. Yeah, and so they
30:17
Speaker 2: are wanted fugitives because Jordan has lived it is not
30:20
Speaker 2: a secret what happened. And also just so idiotic, because
30:24
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but even in twenty twenty one, how do
30:27
Speaker 2: you not know that taking someone's physical cell phone that
30:32
Speaker 2: doesn't help you. All of your text messages can be retrieved.
30:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, what are we talking about here? Yeah, like why
30:39
Speaker 1: would they do that? You need to burn stupid, you
30:41
Speaker 1: need to burn your phone for let then, Yeah, and
30:44
Speaker 1: so they're on the run, and so authorities like very
30:48
Speaker 1: quickly know exactly who they are and that they've done this,
30:51
Speaker 1: but they've already fled the country.
30:53
Speaker 2: They've fled the country, and so eventually they're apprehended in
31:04
Speaker 2: Hungary and Budapest, Wow, in this scene with lots of clubs,
31:08
Speaker 2: lots of night clubs and fancy restaurants. And they're apprehended
31:12
Speaker 2: in June of twenty twenty one. So remember this happens
31:15
Speaker 2: at the very end of February. They're not apprehended till June,
31:17
Speaker 2: so that whole time they're wanted fugitives.
31:20
Speaker 1: You have to wonder what's going on with the two
31:23
Speaker 1: of them during that time. Yeah, And you know, I
31:26
Speaker 1: would assume also because of the area they were found in,
31:30
Speaker 1: that they were just living, you know, like nothing had happened,
31:34
Speaker 1: going to clubs, like, can you imagine No? No, Like, wow,
31:39
Speaker 1: I can't imagine at all. Actually, yeah, let alone under
31:42
Speaker 1: these circumstances ever going to a club. Yeah, not at
31:46
Speaker 1: this point in my life. Seriously.
31:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so Lucy agrees right away once they're arrested
31:51
Speaker 2: to return to Canada. But all of our fights extradition
31:55
Speaker 2: and so now they're being separated, and that was going
31:58
Speaker 2: to happen anyway, whether or not one was extradited in
32:00
Speaker 2: one wasn't. But for the months that they've been gone,
32:03
Speaker 2: the story of you know, this murder and attempted murder
32:06
Speaker 2: has been all over the news, as has a bunch
32:10
Speaker 2: of camera footage of them on CCTV and elevators and
32:13
Speaker 2: around the city dumping the evidence. So it's not a
32:17
Speaker 2: secret we know who was there that night, but it's
32:20
Speaker 2: just a matter of figuring out, Okay, what happened because Jordan,
32:25
Speaker 2: she knows that Oliver shot her, and she knows that
32:28
Speaker 2: Lucy was there, but after she was shot, it all
32:31
Speaker 2: happened so fast. Yeah, it's not clear like did she
32:34
Speaker 2: see Tyler get shot?
32:36
Speaker 1: Does she know the full.
32:37
Speaker 2: Extent of their business dealings?
32:39
Speaker 1: Right?
32:39
Speaker 2: Those are sort of the unknowns that I think Oliver
32:43
Speaker 2: and Lucy begin to sort of see if they can
32:47
Speaker 2: use to their advantage. Okay, But Lucy starts talking to
32:51
Speaker 2: authorities right away, and she tries to place the blame
32:55
Speaker 2: on Tyler Pratt, the victim, you know, the murder victim.
33:00
Speaker 2: She's like, he's dangerous and my husband did not plan
33:04
Speaker 2: to kill him. But her story is, as you can imagine,
33:07
Speaker 2: poorly thought out and a total mess, and nobody believes her.
33:12
Speaker 1: I wonder if they found the friend who lent them
33:15
Speaker 1: the SIM card. There's that piece. There's also the guy
33:20
Speaker 1: that they sold the card to. I don't know if
33:21
Speaker 1: they could find that guy.
33:22
Speaker 2: Actually, I'm glad you said that because it reminded me
33:25
Speaker 2: the audi that Oliver and Lucy arrived to the warehouse
33:28
Speaker 2: in that night. They had purchased that I believe from
33:31
Speaker 2: a friend of Lucy's family, Okay, and they had purchased
33:34
Speaker 2: it very recently before the murder.
33:37
Speaker 1: Okay. So it's like, okay, so you buy a getaway
33:42
Speaker 1: car right before. Okay. Yeah, there's a lot of evidence
33:45
Speaker 1: that's coming together that shows this was premeditated.
33:48
Speaker 2: A lot, and so a bail hearing happens in December
33:52
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty one, and that means, you know, they've
33:55
Speaker 2: been in prison for that time, probably awaiting their trial,
33:58
Speaker 2: trying to figure out if they're going to plead. And
34:01
Speaker 2: Lucy's family really advocates for her to be allowed on
34:05
Speaker 2: house arrest with bail. They swear up and down, you know,
34:09
Speaker 2: we'll keep her in the house. You want have access
34:11
Speaker 2: to credit cards or cars, and the court agrees.
34:14
Speaker 1: Unbelievable.
34:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I believe Lucy's bill was three million dollars.
34:19
Speaker 2: It was one of the highest bills ever set there. Yeah,
34:22
Speaker 2: and so what does she do on house arrest? She
34:25
Speaker 2: violates her terms. Not a surprise, Yeah, not a surprise.
34:29
Speaker 2: She goes to lunch with her sisters and a possible
34:33
Speaker 2: witness for the trial. My god, I mean horrible, right,
34:38
Speaker 2: And I think it also shows we'll touch on this later,
34:41
Speaker 2: but Lucy sort of leans into being almost like ditsy,
34:46
Speaker 2: like I'm, you know, the dumbest person in the room,
34:49
Speaker 2: Like that word gets used, like she claims to be stupid,
34:53
Speaker 2: Like I was totally coerced. But you see her making
34:57
Speaker 2: these calculated efforts. I think you go to lunch with
35:01
Speaker 2: your sister's and a possible witness, like is that a coincidence, probably, Yeah,
35:06
Speaker 2: And so obviously the court does not think highly of
35:09
Speaker 2: that decision, and she's ordered to stay in prison until
35:12
Speaker 2: her trial.
35:13
Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah, And Oliver Carafa, Hungary and Canada come to
35:18
Speaker 1: the terms of his extradition. He's extradited to Canada and
35:22
Speaker 1: also now awaiting trial, and his story starts to be
35:27
Speaker 1: I shot in self defense. Tyler's really dangerous. He's a
35:30
Speaker 1: drug dealer. He's very dangerous, and he was threatening to
35:34
Speaker 1: have people kill me and saying that if I reported
35:37
Speaker 1: him to police for these threats. Well, he knew people
35:40
Speaker 1: who were police who would protect him, and there was
35:44
Speaker 1: no evidence of that. You know, Tyler's work may not
35:48
Speaker 1: have been above board, but he did not come armed
35:52
Speaker 1: to this meeting. He thought they were going to dinner afterward.
35:56
Speaker 1: He was not threatening Oliver's life. Yeah.
36:00
Speaker 2: So Jordan Romano, So Jordan survives, her baby does not survive,
36:07
Speaker 2: and that is you know, you can't put it into
36:11
Speaker 2: words how terrible that must have been for her, especially
36:15
Speaker 2: because the father of the yeah child, her partners, she's dead. Yeah,
36:21
Speaker 2: on this night she lost both Tyler and their baby. Yeah,
36:25
Speaker 2: it's horrific over what.
36:28
Speaker 1: You know, money like greed. I don't know.
36:31
Speaker 2: I mean, it's there is no explanation, right, And so
36:35
Speaker 2: her testimony at the trial is extremely important. She's a
36:40
Speaker 2: witness to what happened, and she has an incredibly emotional
36:44
Speaker 2: story to tell. And so when Jordan takes the stand
36:47
Speaker 2: on the third day of trial, she says that she
36:50
Speaker 2: made eye contact with Oliver as he was shooting at her,
36:54
Speaker 2: and she said it seems like he was almost like saying,
36:58
Speaker 2: get out of here, Joe. Oh, like he almost meant it,
37:02
Speaker 2: but that he started shooting right away, so it wasn't
37:06
Speaker 2: like he gave her a few minutes to get out
37:08
Speaker 2: of there. He immediately started shooting. And she said they
37:11
Speaker 2: had locked eyes when he shot at her, and he
37:14
Speaker 2: didn't shoot just once. He shot multiple times. If you
37:17
Speaker 2: shoot a gun at someone multiple times, your intention is
37:20
Speaker 2: to kill them. Yeah, And I wasn't able to find
37:24
Speaker 2: out if Oliver knew that Jordan was pregnant. It doesn't matter,
37:27
Speaker 2: it's still awful, but just for the record, I wasn't
37:29
Speaker 2: able to find that out. Okay, Now, Oliver and Lucy
37:34
Speaker 2: have in a sense turned on each other, but they
37:37
Speaker 2: both are saying Tyler's really dangerous and that was the
37:39
Speaker 2: catalyst of all of this, is that we were scared
37:41
Speaker 2: of Tyler. But Lucy says, I wasn't even there. I
37:44
Speaker 2: was at least half a football field away, and I
37:47
Speaker 2: didn't know he was going to kill him. And her
37:50
Speaker 2: story changes so much she can't keep it straight. Oliver's
37:53
Speaker 2: claiming self defense. It doesn't work, And on May twenty fourth,
37:57
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, they're both sentenced to life, which in
38:01
Speaker 2: Canada means they will not be eligible for parole for at.
38:04
Speaker 1: Least twenty five years. And I don't believe that the
38:08
Speaker 1: baby Jordan lost carried any separate charges, but I did
38:13
Speaker 1: want to acknowledge that. Yeah, in Tyler's family, I watched
38:16
Speaker 1: an interview with them outside the courthouse when the verdict
38:20
Speaker 1: was delivered guilty, and they said that they were so
38:24
Speaker 1: relieved that they were found guilty, and they spoke so
38:27
Speaker 1: highly of the way the court handled the case and
38:29
Speaker 1: the way that victim services helped them through this. Nothing
38:33
Speaker 1: good comes of this, but I was like, Oh, it's
38:36
Speaker 1: nice to hear a family feel like they were treated
38:40
Speaker 1: that way through such were difficult experience. Really, Yeah, yeah,
38:44
Speaker 1: for sure, because because of a trial of the murder
38:49
Speaker 1: of your son, your brother. Yeah, I mean it's horrible,
38:53
Speaker 1: and just even the attitude of both Lucy and Oliver,
38:59
Speaker 1: and the fact that like Oliver had killed someone before.
39:02
Speaker 1: Yes it was accidental, but it just the recklessness, the
39:07
Speaker 1: like seeming lack of remorse. Obviously, I don't know if
39:10
Speaker 1: they were remorseful or not, but them sort of trying
39:13
Speaker 1: to blame Tyler, the person who was killed here. It's
39:17
Speaker 1: so gross and the crime seems so clearly premeditated, so
39:22
Speaker 1: horrible to cover up what was probably already an I
39:25
Speaker 1: legal operation of an investment fraud. So it's just like good,
39:30
Speaker 1: I'm glad they were caught. Like their behavior did indicate
39:33
Speaker 1: that they were like gonna change their ways?
39:35
Speaker 2: No, yeah, not at all. And they're more dangerous together. Yeah,
39:40
Speaker 2: I guess they're still married technically. I don't know if
39:43
Speaker 2: that's like for any reason other than why bother if
39:46
Speaker 2: you're going to spend the next twenty five years in jail,
39:48
Speaker 2: I don't think so. But yeah, I mean neither one
39:50
Speaker 2: of them had ever I think, faced real consequences.
39:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is such a wild story. I had not
39:57
Speaker 1: heard that. I had no idea where it was going,
39:59
Speaker 1: and and it's crazy. I mean, what a wild story.
40:02
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm glad they were caught. I'm glad
40:04
Speaker 1: that Jordan lived, Like I'm sure her life is different
40:07
Speaker 1: than before forever, but that's amazing that she survived this. Yeah,
40:13
Speaker 1: I mean to think of what it must have felt
40:16
Speaker 1: like to see your friend shooting at you and then
40:19
Speaker 1: have him and his girlfriend who was also your friend
40:21
Speaker 1: or his wife pulling you out of the car and
40:24
Speaker 1: leaving you there to die.
40:25
Speaker 2: I mean, that's unthinkable. And Jordan actually filed a civil
40:29
Speaker 2: suit and won. I couldn't tell exactly how much she won,
40:33
Speaker 2: but I think it was over a million dollars. It
40:35
Speaker 2: doesn't seem like even today, Oliver Lucy has accepted responsibility.
40:39
Speaker 2: They're both still trying to appeal. And yeah, like I said,
40:43
Speaker 2: they're still married. So yeah, this happened in Stony Creek, Ontario,
40:49
Speaker 2: and the way that they planned it together, even though
40:53
Speaker 2: it was poor planning, they planned it and the court
40:57
Speaker 2: talked so much about how stupid they were, and I
41:01
Speaker 2: thought that was like kind of interesting, m m. They
41:04
Speaker 2: pointed out, this is the stupidest plan, but they did
41:07
Speaker 2: plan it. And I mean the wig, the sim card,
41:10
Speaker 2: I mean, they're making all of these moves in plain sight,
41:14
Speaker 2: you know, buying this audi, swapping the phone thing, showing
41:18
Speaker 2: up at this warehouse.
41:20
Speaker 1: I mean, idiots. It's like they both have this same affliction,
41:24
Speaker 1: which is inflated self intelligence or a few of themselves,
41:30
Speaker 1: and clearly they're not good together. Like talk about toxic relationship. Yeah.
41:36
Speaker 2: I read one report that when they saw on the
41:39
Speaker 2: news that Jordan had lived, they went around looking for
41:43
Speaker 2: her because she wasn't named, but they were like, it
41:46
Speaker 2: couldn't be her, it couldn't be her, And then they
41:47
Speaker 2: couldn't find her body because obviously she wasn't dead she
41:51
Speaker 2: had been.
41:51
Speaker 1: Wow, they went back to the scene of the crime
41:53
Speaker 1: to try to see if your body was there.
41:55
Speaker 2: One of the reports said that. But I couldn't figure
41:58
Speaker 2: out how that happened after they ditched the cars, because
42:02
Speaker 2: I heard that they ditched the cars right right, and
42:04
Speaker 2: then took a cap and then went back to the apartment.
42:06
Speaker 2: But for what is worth, I'm like, wow, imagine that moment. Yeah,
42:11
Speaker 2: wild story. I'm glad that they were both found guilty
42:14
Speaker 2: and finally facing consequences.
42:17
Speaker 1: Me too, Thanks for telling me that story. Yeah, Okay,
42:21
Speaker 1: so I have a couple quick recommendations. Oh, I would
42:23
Speaker 1: love them. So the first one is a podcast. It
42:27
Speaker 1: is a limited series. Not all the episodes are out yet,
42:30
Speaker 1: so I have to say that okay as a caveat.
42:32
Speaker 1: But I started listening to it. It's called Valley of Shadows. Oh,
42:36
Speaker 1: I've heard of Value of Shadows, but I haven't listened,
42:38
Speaker 1: so tell me. It's from pushkin. I heard about it
42:42
Speaker 1: because one of the investigative reporters who's also one of
42:46
Speaker 1: the co hosts. Two women who are both investigative reporters
42:50
Speaker 1: reporting on the story, and they co host the podcast.
42:52
Speaker 1: And one of them, Haley, is someone that I used
42:54
Speaker 1: to work with years ago. Oh cool, Yeah, and she's great.
42:57
Speaker 1: She's such a good reporter. I know that anything that
42:59
Speaker 1: she works on is going to be just really well
43:02
Speaker 1: done and thoughtful. So I feel like, I don't know,
43:05
Speaker 1: I can fully stand behind this is going to be
43:07
Speaker 1: like a well done show, And so I started listening
43:11
Speaker 1: to it. It's interesting. It's basically they look into the
43:15
Speaker 1: disappearance of someone who worked for the Sheriff's department. This
43:20
Speaker 1: guy John Auja. I don't know exactly how to say
43:23
Speaker 1: his last name. Some say his name is Oja. Other
43:26
Speaker 1: people call him Auja, and he was a long distance
43:29
Speaker 1: runner and would go on these like big long runs
43:33
Speaker 1: out in the desert, and one day in nineteen ninety eight,
43:36
Speaker 1: he never came back from a run. You find that
43:39
Speaker 1: out like very quickly. So on the surface, it seems
43:42
Speaker 1: like someone who went missing in nature, which we've covered
43:46
Speaker 1: stories like that before. But there's a lot of questions
43:50
Speaker 1: about if there was actually foul play and a lot
43:53
Speaker 1: of questioning of the La County Sheriff's department handling of
44:00
Speaker 1: like the search and rescue, which is interesting because if
44:03
Speaker 1: you know anything about the La County Sheriff's Department, there's
44:06
Speaker 1: been a lot written about like endemic problems and actually
44:09
Speaker 1: gang membership within the Sheriff's Department since the seventies. You know,
44:14
Speaker 1: there's been a couple of investigations. There's a fifteen part
44:17
Speaker 1: podcast from Knock La that investigates like the history of
44:22
Speaker 1: gangs inside the department. Oh wow, and how you know?
44:26
Speaker 1: It's that like classic thing of you know, don't snitch,
44:31
Speaker 1: and there's all like I don't know, and so obviously
44:33
Speaker 1: it's not every person in the Sheriff's department, but that's
44:36
Speaker 1: sort of the reputation that they have had in the past,
44:39
Speaker 1: and so it makes you wonder and there's a lot
44:41
Speaker 1: of questioning about like how they handled the case. So
44:45
Speaker 1: this is their investigation, the host investigation into this, and
44:50
Speaker 1: they go out to the desert, they interview a lot
44:53
Speaker 1: of people. It feels in some ways like an investigative
44:57
Speaker 1: podcast back when that was first a thing. Not to
45:02
Speaker 1: say investigated podcasts aren't great today because they are. There's
45:04
Speaker 1: so many of them. Not all of them are truly
45:08
Speaker 1: investigative or someone's like boots on the ground looking into
45:12
Speaker 1: a case. But that is how this one is.
45:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when I hear okay that someone who's a
45:18
Speaker 2: long distance runner and he's going for a run in
45:21
Speaker 2: nature and he goes missing, I would fully support any
45:26
Speaker 2: reasonable investigation into one someone's disappearance and two possible off
45:30
Speaker 2: houl play. Like that is why these law enforcement agencies exist,
45:34
Speaker 2: is to figure out what happens to people and to
45:37
Speaker 2: bring people.
45:38
Speaker 1: To justice when it's called for.
45:40
Speaker 2: But I have my own experience looking into and like,
45:46
Speaker 2: I don't know what happened here. I haven't listened to
45:47
Speaker 2: the show, but my knee jerk reaction is, did he
45:51
Speaker 2: just go missing? And it reminds me of a story
45:54
Speaker 2: I was working on before you and I left our
45:57
Speaker 2: last company that we were working at. This young man
46:01
Speaker 2: had gone missing on a hike, and he was a
46:06
Speaker 2: very physically fit young person. I believe he's in his
46:10
Speaker 2: late twenties, maybe yearly thirties, I think late twenties, and
46:13
Speaker 2: he was well prepared for this hike, had set out
46:16
Speaker 2: water drops, had made plans to meet his then girlfriend
46:20
Speaker 2: at the end of the hike. And he was someone
46:22
Speaker 2: who lived less conventional lifestyle. He was nomadic and traveled around.
46:28
Speaker 2: But yeah, there was a huge search for him, and
46:32
Speaker 2: no one found anything, and so it was like, well,
46:35
Speaker 2: what happened to him? Did he owe someone money because
46:38
Speaker 2: he was a gambler and there was some drug use happening,
46:43
Speaker 2: you know whatever. So there were all of these suspicions,
46:45
Speaker 2: right because they did this huge search, and this took
46:47
Speaker 2: place in Joshua Trade and which like so much to search,
46:52
Speaker 2: so much to search, but by all accounts, a very
46:55
Speaker 2: thorough search. And this was someone who had done a
46:59
Speaker 2: lot of hiking, hiked the Appalachian Trail many times. He
47:02
Speaker 2: was a seasoned hiker, and so there were a lot
47:05
Speaker 2: of sort of explorations into other possibilities of what had
47:09
Speaker 2: happened to him. And I don't know that those were
47:11
Speaker 2: formal investigations, but you know, there were a lot of
47:14
Speaker 2: people asking questions, well, if he got injured or died
47:17
Speaker 2: on the hike, well then why can't we find him?
47:20
Speaker 2: And eventually another hiker stumbled upon his remains, and he
47:24
Speaker 2: did die on the hike. It looks like he just
47:27
Speaker 2: got lost and had a medical event. You know, if
47:31
Speaker 2: you've ever been to Joshua Tree, there are areas that
47:33
Speaker 2: have more vegetation, but you can look out and see
47:37
Speaker 2: rocks right like so many rocks, but you can see
47:40
Speaker 2: a long distance, and I think it gives you this
47:43
Speaker 2: sense of I can scan this area. But you know,
47:47
Speaker 2: when you talk about remains and animals and wildlife, you know,
47:52
Speaker 2: taking things and moving things around, you could be three
47:58
Speaker 2: feet away from a bone and not see it. Yeah,
48:01
Speaker 2: And I think what ended up happening is someone spotted
48:04
Speaker 2: a backpack because you know it looks out of place.
48:06
Speaker 2: Your eye is drawn to this color that doesn't belong
48:08
Speaker 2: in nature. And that was the same thing with the
48:12
Speaker 2: Rachel Leduke hiker that went missing in Washington that I
48:16
Speaker 2: mentioned in our Sam Sayers.
48:18
Speaker 1: Episode, Yeah, someone spotted her backpack. Someone spotted a backpack
48:22
Speaker 1: or sleeping back something like that, because it's like not
48:25
Speaker 1: a color of nature, right, and it also doesn't decompose,
48:29
Speaker 1: so right, you know it's going to be out there.
48:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, she went years without being found.
48:35
Speaker 2: I think over two years without being found, and she
48:38
Speaker 2: wasn't that far from the trail. And you know, nature
48:42
Speaker 2: is just ruthless.
48:43
Speaker 1: And so ruthless. I mean, we've talked about a lot
48:46
Speaker 1: of stories of people both on the podcast and off
48:50
Speaker 1: of missing people who went missing out in nature, and
48:53
Speaker 1: there's just so many elements, depending on the environment, that
48:57
Speaker 1: make it really difficult to find people. Wildlife, water, yeah,
49:02
Speaker 1: rough turin, and it doesn't I mean, I really don't
49:04
Speaker 1: think it matters if you are a seasoned hiker. I
49:07
Speaker 1: agree with you, because, like we've seen that again and again,
49:10
Speaker 1: sometimes people who are really seasoned overestimate their abilities and
49:14
Speaker 1: underestimate the power of nature. Dehydration can do a lot
49:19
Speaker 1: to you as well. I had the same thought about
49:21
Speaker 1: this story, especially when I first started listening. I was like,
49:24
Speaker 1: I bet he just died and hasn't been found. But
49:28
Speaker 1: they do a good job of kind of bringing up
49:30
Speaker 1: questions like there actually wasn't a very thorough search for him,
49:35
Speaker 1: so the sheriff's department cut the search off prematurely and
49:39
Speaker 1: came up with a story about what happened that doesn't
49:42
Speaker 1: seem to be backed by evidence as far as we know.
49:46
Speaker 1: So there are some things that make it weird, and
49:50
Speaker 1: especially like a law enforcement officer and their organization not
49:55
Speaker 1: going above and beyond to find someone is weird to me, right,
50:00
Speaker 1: But also who knows, like it could literally just be nature.
50:04
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the things that makes it
50:06
Speaker 1: an interesting story because it's you're like, I don't know, Yeah,
50:09
Speaker 1: you get to sort of decide for yourself. Are these
50:13
Speaker 1: you know, the interviews.
50:14
Speaker 2: With people out there, Are they making you feel one
50:17
Speaker 2: way or the other way?
50:18
Speaker 1: Yeah?
50:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's reminiscent two of the I think
50:21
Speaker 2: it's in our second episode, I talk about the missing
50:23
Speaker 2: person's case I looked into in Tennessee. And one thing
50:26
Speaker 2: I always really appreciated about the law enforcement agencies that
50:30
Speaker 2: were just local sheriff's department that worked on this missing
50:34
Speaker 2: person's case, these two teenagers, right, is they didn't know
50:38
Speaker 2: what happened to them. They ended up that they had
50:40
Speaker 2: driven into this river, and their car with their remains
50:43
Speaker 2: in it was later found in the river twenty some
50:45
Speaker 2: years later. Right, But yes, there should have been a
50:48
Speaker 2: more thorough search of the river. I think we can
50:50
Speaker 2: all agree. But they never just said, well, they probably
50:54
Speaker 2: went into the river.
50:55
Speaker 1: It was an open case.
50:56
Speaker 2: It was an open case, and many years later, right,
51:00
Speaker 2: didn't have you know, the resources and the training and
51:03
Speaker 2: the manpower to I think at the time, make the
51:06
Speaker 2: right decisions or put the right people in place to
51:09
Speaker 2: ask these questions and do these searches. But they never
51:12
Speaker 2: gave up like that. Sheriff Steve Page in Sparta took
51:17
Speaker 2: my call, yeah, and was like, okay, well what have
51:19
Speaker 2: you found out, and was.
51:20
Speaker 1: Still invested in bringing answers to the community. Yeah.
51:24
Speaker 2: And I just always thought that that was sort of
51:27
Speaker 2: an underappreciated aspect of this particular case. When you're writing
51:32
Speaker 2: an article about two missing people, obviously the focus is
51:35
Speaker 2: just like what happened, Right, But I think that everyone
51:39
Speaker 2: who worked on that case, one thing they did that
51:42
Speaker 2: doesn't happen all the time is they didn't just say whatever,
51:45
Speaker 2: we're done with this, We're not going to find them.
51:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you hear stories about investigators who, no matter
51:51
Speaker 1: how much time has gone on with the unsolved case,
51:55
Speaker 1: they're still invested in wanting to find those answers, especially
51:58
Speaker 1: if they were working hard on it and then were't
52:00
Speaker 1: ever able to solve it. There's usually a real desire
52:03
Speaker 1: to find answers there. Totally. Okay, So my second recommendation
52:09
Speaker 1: is sort of connected thematically, but it's fiction. So it's
52:14
Speaker 1: actually a book that I listened to the audiobook of.
52:18
Speaker 1: So I want to recommend the audiobook because you know,
52:21
Speaker 1: if I'm not listening to a podcast, I'm probably listening
52:23
Speaker 1: to an audiobook. And with audiobooks, I have a really
52:27
Speaker 1: particular like standards, Okay, Like I really like a good reader,
52:33
Speaker 1: and I also really enjoy when there's different voices, not always,
52:38
Speaker 1: but when it's done well for the different characters. I
52:41
Speaker 1: like that. And I thought this book did that really well.
52:44
Speaker 1: It was an engaging and easy listen like I was
52:47
Speaker 1: able to follow along really well with it listening. It's
52:50
Speaker 1: called Heartwood by Amity Gage. It's a thriller and it's
52:55
Speaker 1: about this forty two year old woman, Valerie, who is
52:59
Speaker 1: hiking the Apple Trail and goes missing and so you're
53:02
Speaker 1: following like the investigator who's looking for her, the search
53:05
Speaker 1: and rescue as well as like some other people involved.
53:09
Speaker 1: So it's fictional, but I thought it was really interesting
53:13
Speaker 1: and well done and a story about like a missing person,
53:16
Speaker 1: which I, you know, always find to be intriguing. Have
53:19
Speaker 1: to check it out. Yeah, so those are my recommendations. Well,
53:22
Speaker 1: thanks so much for those, and thanks everybody for listening.
53:25
Speaker 1: We'll be back next week. If you have a story
53:29
Speaker 1: for us, we would love to hear it. Our email
53:31
Speaker 1: is The Knife at exactly rightmedia dot com, or you
53:34
Speaker 1: can follow us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or
53:37
Speaker 1: a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast. This has been
53:39
Speaker 1: an Exactly Right production hosted and produced by me Hannah
53:43
Speaker 1: Smith and me Paysia Ey.
53:45
Speaker 2: Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Amarosi.
53:48
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer
53:51
Speaker 1: is Christina Chamberlain. Our theme music is by Birds in
53:54
Speaker 1: the Airport Artwork five as a Lilac Executive produced by
53:58
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hartstar and Daniel Kramer.