Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / FAMILY FURY, BRIDE ELLEN STABBED 20X RULED SUICIDE AGAIN IN SHOCK RPT: COVERUP?

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FAMILY FURY, BRIDE ELLEN STABBED 20X RULED SUICIDE AGAIN IN SHOCK RPT: COVERUP? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace family fury after a gorgeous
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Speaker 1: young bride, Ellen Greenberg stabbed twenty times twenty two zero times,
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Speaker 1: including in the back, has been real suicide again in
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Speaker 1: a shuck report tonight. I can't help but ask is
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Speaker 1: there a cover up? That district attorney has got to go?
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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: I just loved it, my prime life. See if the
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Speaker 2: floor with blood everywhere? Oh no, I can't see anything, shoes,
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Speaker 2: there's nothing broken.
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Speaker 1: She sleeps Ellie, can't see anything. She was stabbed twenty
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Speaker 1: and miraculously there was very very little blood on the floor.
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Speaker 1: But that's not the headline. The banner tonight is in
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Speaker 1: a stunning and I would say shocking report. Bam, a
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Speaker 1: rubber stamp on the last debucle I'm want to go
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Speaker 1: straight out to Guy DeAndrea, former prosecutor in the Ellen
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Speaker 1: Greenberg case, now high profile lawyer at Laffey Bucci de'andrea
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Speaker 1: ralch and Ryan. Why why is this happening again? What
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Speaker 1: is wrong with that administration? Did you read this report?
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Speaker 1: Thirty something pages of BS technical legal term b yes,
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Speaker 1: total BS.
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Speaker 3: It's outrageous, Nancy Grace. I've read it front the back
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Speaker 3: several times. The seven points that I found that she
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Speaker 3: relied upon are nonsense. I don't cannot wrap my head
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Speaker 3: around how she can make these conclusions and light up
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Speaker 3: everything we know in twenty twenty five.
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Speaker 1: Well, I'm stunned. I'm stunned, and I want to point
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Speaker 1: out Benay Nour is with me, my co author, and
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Speaker 1: what happened to Ellen an American miscarriage of justice. By
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Speaker 1: the way, we're not keeping any money from that. That's
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Speaker 1: all going to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Baney,
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Speaker 1: you know what I noticed in this new thirty plus
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Speaker 1: page report. Hey, whoa look at that bruising on her
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Speaker 1: wrists which was not addressed in the report as a
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Speaker 1: defensive wound. Bruising around her neck which was not addressed
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Speaker 1: as a defensive wound. Right there, that's what you call
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Speaker 1: a fingertip bruise. Look at that. You can actually see
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Speaker 1: the fingertip markings. What is very critical about those bruises.
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Speaker 1: There's the door that was quote broken down. What's so
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Speaker 1: important about these bruises is that they are unrelated to
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Speaker 1: the stabbings. They are separate bruisings, and they are not
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Speaker 1: in resolve. In other words, they're not healing. This is
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Speaker 1: from that evening, and they occurred before the stabbings, because
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Speaker 1: if they had occurred after she was stabbed dead, you
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Speaker 1: would not see any hemorrhaging. There wouldn't be any marchings
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Speaker 1: because the heart is no longer pumping. I'm gonna have
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Speaker 1: to bring in our doctrine just a moment. He can
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Speaker 1: say it much better than me. Ben an hour. So
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Speaker 1: much is left out of this fake autopsy reports, total
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Speaker 1: bs and you know what to you, doctor Lindsey Simon,
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Speaker 1: You're full of crap. Next, Benet helped me out. No
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Speaker 1: mention of the bruises is defensive wounds.
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Speaker 4: I could not agree more. First of all, this report
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Speaker 4: is shocking in every way, but in terms of the
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Speaker 4: bruise is she says in this report that those bruises
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Speaker 4: are come from being a teacher of little children. I
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Speaker 4: know many teachers. They are not covered in bruises. I
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Speaker 4: don't even know what to make of that. But what
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Speaker 4: really is driven home so powerful, powerfully for me here
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Speaker 4: is that this does not feel like an unbiased, fresh
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Speaker 4: new case.
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Speaker 1: This feels like a rebuttal.
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Speaker 4: To me, it feels like this person, this medical examiner,
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Speaker 4: took all of the existing evidence and went against every
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Speaker 4: single thing. It's doubling down to tripling down. But it
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Speaker 4: feels like a rebuttal, like an argument against what is real,
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Speaker 4: what is reasonable?
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Speaker 1: John Lucy is joining me on the case. From the
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Speaker 1: very beginning, I almost says, story, but this is no story.
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Speaker 1: This is real, This happened, and Ellen Greenberg's parents are
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Speaker 1: thrown into desolation yet again. They're not only fighting on
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Speaker 1: behalf of their daughter. They've spent their entire life savings,
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Speaker 1: they had to sell their house, but they are battling,
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Speaker 1: which to me seems like a corrupt administration. John Lucy,
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Speaker 1: Journalistpenlive dot com and The Patriot News Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, specializes
5:26
Speaker 1: in true crime, author of Kill the Story, and he
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Speaker 1: has been on the Ellen Greenberg murder from day one. Hey,
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Speaker 1: John Lucy, I taught school while I was waiting to
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Speaker 1: find out if I got into law school. I didn't
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Speaker 1: get a single bruise teaching Greek and Roman mythology. What
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Speaker 1: about that?
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Speaker 5: No, I can't explain that either. She had basically cherry
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Speaker 5: picked every piece of evidence in this case that the
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Speaker 5: Greenbergs have on earthed that wasn't given initially. They found
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Speaker 5: a lot of evidence over over a fourteen year investigation,
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Speaker 5: and Lindsey Simon, the Emmy cherry picks everything in the
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Speaker 5: favor of the suicide and against the idea of homicide.
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Speaker 1: Joining us in an all star panel to make sense
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Speaker 1: of what we are learning tonight. Joining our special guest,
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Speaker 1: Judge Pat Dugan has served the last seventeen years as
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Speaker 1: a municipal court judge, has seen it all, also in
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Speaker 1: the Army Army Reserved twenty three years Captain and now
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Speaker 1: has his sights set on the Ellen Greenberg debacle. Judge Dugan,
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Speaker 1: did you know that her mother and father have spent
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Speaker 1: their entire life savings fighting this suicide? Ruling that first,
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Speaker 1: when Ellen's body got to the Emmy's office, doctor Marlin
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Speaker 1: Osborne ruled it a homicide, obviously twenty stats most of
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Speaker 1: the back for Pete's sake, one slicing into her spinal cord. Then,
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Speaker 1: after a closed door meeting with a rep, a female
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Speaker 1: rep from the DA's office who now has immunity, Nobody
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Speaker 1: can explain why she needs immunity on what went down
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Speaker 1: in that room and members of the PHILLYPD who already
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Speaker 1: ruled it a suicide on the scene. They have a
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Speaker 1: closed door meeting with them, and then he comes out
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Speaker 1: and says, oh, I'm changing my ruling. After that meeting,
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Speaker 1: later in a sworn to position, he states they coerced him.
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Speaker 1: They persuaded him to change his ruling. Can nobody smell
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Speaker 1: that except me? It stinks?
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Speaker 6: So Nancy, Yes, I'm running against the characteristrict attorney right
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Speaker 6: now and then an election in November. What I'm promising
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Speaker 6: if I win this election, I will do a top
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Speaker 6: to bottom review of this entire case. I will bring
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Speaker 6: in a team of experts, former homicide prosecutors, homicide detectives,
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Speaker 6: and we will look at the entire record. I will
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Speaker 6: review it with ethics and as an attorney and as
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Speaker 6: a former judge. We will look at the Philadelphia District
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Speaker 6: Attorney's office file. We will look at the Chester Counties
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Speaker 6: District Attorney's Office file, the Attorney General's file. We will
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Speaker 6: look at all these autops or reports. We will look
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Speaker 6: at all the testimony and depositions that have been taken.
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Speaker 6: We will interview people experts. Some of these people that
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Speaker 6: are on your panel today and then I will make
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Speaker 6: a determination whether or not this case should be reopened
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Speaker 6: because to me, just on its face, this case has
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Speaker 6: been a black guy for Philadelphia since twenty eleven and
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Speaker 6: Josh and Sandy.
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Speaker 1: Judge Diagan, I would never interrupt a judge if I
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Speaker 1: were trying a case in front of you. So I'm
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Speaker 1: really enjoying this moment. Judge. Are you currently or have
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Speaker 1: you ever been married?
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Speaker 7: Yes?
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Speaker 1: Okay? Has your wife either? Has she ever asked you
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Speaker 1: to zip up for zipper.
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Speaker 8: All the time?
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Speaker 1: Okay? So did you know what you're talking about? I
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Speaker 1: will determine if this needs to be reopened. Your wife
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Speaker 1: can't even zip up her bag zipper.
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Speaker 9: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg managed to stab herself multiple times in the back,
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Speaker 1: slicing her spinal cord, which was not really even addressed
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Speaker 1: in this thirty plus pages of hogwash. Really, and not
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Speaker 1: only that, I'm sure you're familiar with the quote wrong
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Speaker 1: way blood on Ellen's face to doctor Kendal Crowns joining
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Speaker 1: us the chief medical Examiner of Terrant County that's out
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Speaker 1: of Texas for worth never a lack of business in
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Speaker 1: their morgue. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnette
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Speaker 1: School of Medicine at TCU, and he is the star
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Speaker 1: of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the Morgue. Doctor
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Speaker 1: Kendall crowns on Ellen's face. Blood. She was sitting up,
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Speaker 1: slumped with her back against the kitchen cabinets. Picture that
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Speaker 1: her legs splayed out in front of her, A knife
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Speaker 1: plunged in her chest on her face. I hope you
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Speaker 1: can see the monitor on her face. Blood was dried
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Speaker 1: from her nose going horizontally to her ear. Does nobody
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Speaker 1: get why that is wrong? Could you explain?
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Speaker 10: So the blood going horizontally, if her face is upright,
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Speaker 10: it would should be coming down her face across her lips,
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Speaker 10: over her chin. She would have to be slumped to
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Speaker 10: the side with her head tilted at a at a
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Speaker 10: very awkward angle for it to get that horizontal kind
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Speaker 10: of bloodstream down the face. It doesn't fit with how
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Speaker 10: her body was positioned.
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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: I just I just walk into my partner on the
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Speaker 2: floor with flood everywhere. What is the address.
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Speaker 4: Bleeding from?
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Speaker 7: I don't know what you.
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Speaker 4: Do.
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Speaker 2: You have to calm yourself down in order to get
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Speaker 2: you somehow. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. She I don't know.
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Speaker 2: I'm looking at her right now. I don't. I can't
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Speaker 2: see anything, shouldn't. There's nothing broken, Alie.
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Speaker 4: You don't know where she's bleeding from.
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Speaker 2: Can always from her head. She hit her head everywhere.
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Speaker 9: She might have fallen, you know what happened.
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Speaker 2: She may have slippers, blood on the on the table,
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Speaker 2: her her face is a little purple. Okay, hold on
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Speaker 2: for rescue for her on the phone.
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Speaker 1: May have slipped. There is a butcher knife stabbed into
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Speaker 1: her chest, her heart. She slipped and fell on the knife.
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Speaker 1: Let's take a listen to more of that nine on
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Speaker 1: one call.
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Speaker 2: I just I went downstairs to work out. I came
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Speaker 2: up up the door and the lash my inside.
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Speaker 7: She wasn't. She wasn't answering.
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Speaker 2: So after about a half hour sometimes of breaking down,
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Speaker 2: I see her now on the floor.
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Speaker 7: She's not she's not responding, okay, breathing. I can't well
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Speaker 7: get her test. I'm to come down.
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Speaker 2: I really don't.
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Speaker 7: I'm going away up and mail up again.
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Speaker 2: I don't see her moving.
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Speaker 1: According to the police report, she was not on her back.
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Speaker 1: Why is he saying she was on her back? She
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Speaker 1: was sitting up, leaning against the kitchen cabinets. So how
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Speaker 1: did that happen? Was the body moved? Obviously it was
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Speaker 1: because blood was dry going the wrong way. She was
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Speaker 1: found by the fiance sitting up. Let me remind everyone,
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Speaker 1: no one has been named a person of interest, No
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Speaker 1: one has been named a suspect in this case. Let's
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Speaker 1: listen to more of that nine on one call.
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Speaker 9: Okay, okay, I tell you what to do.
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Speaker 7: Get here. Okay, you now by her fat, You can't
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Speaker 7: freak out.
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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm a different.
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Speaker 7: Picking out, sticking out. I guess you call it.
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Speaker 2: I don't know.
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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, don't you judge, Pat Dugan. She stabbed herself,
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Speaker 1: that's what was said on the nine one one call.
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Speaker 1: Or she quote fell on a knife. That was said
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Speaker 1: on the nine one one call. And apparently the medical
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Speaker 1: Examiner's office agreed. Could you tell me why a prosecutor,
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Speaker 1: the female prosecutor from the District Attorney's office, would have
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Speaker 1: been granted immunity about what happened in that closed door
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Speaker 1: meeting that they held. She from the DA's office, somebody
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Speaker 1: from PHILLYPD with the medical examiner who had already ruled
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Speaker 1: this homicide, and now today says it was a homicide.
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Speaker 1: But I was pressured to rule it a suicide. That's
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Speaker 1: in his deposition. Why would a member of the District
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Speaker 1: Attorney's office have immunity? I didn't have to get immunity
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Speaker 1: when I was a prosecutor.
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Speaker 5: Why is that?
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Speaker 1: And that's the question.
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Speaker 6: I mean, what kind of circumstances could happen behind closed
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Speaker 6: doors that a prosecutor needs immunity. Well, obviously that points
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Speaker 6: to some pretty nefarious things that might have gone on.
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Speaker 6: It's sort of like going into court and pleating the
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Speaker 6: fifth I don't get it. I want to hear. Why
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Speaker 6: find out what the hell happened?
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Speaker 9: Okay, okay, I tell you what to do. Get here, Okay,
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Speaker 9: you'l me by her fat.
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Speaker 7: Can't freaking out?
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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm I'm trying to her. Won't come off into
16:04
Speaker 2: the zipper.
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Speaker 7: Oh alright, if she shaded her sellar plan, she sell
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Speaker 7: her Oh no, her nice checking out kicking out of
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Speaker 7: her hunter.
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Speaker 2: I guess I'm working telling it.
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Speaker 1: I don't know, Okay, well, don't tech it stabbed twenty
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Speaker 1: times the back of the head to the back of
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Speaker 1: the next talking inside.
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Speaker 7: She wasn't.
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Speaker 2: She wasn't answering, So after about half hour, I decided.
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Speaker 7: To break it down and take her.
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Speaker 2: Now it's on the floor, she's not finding.
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Speaker 1: A bombshell, A shot report, a rubber stamp by the
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Speaker 1: medical Examiner's office of an old and highly attacked, highly
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Speaker 1: questionable medical examer's report stating Ellen Greenberg committed suicide. The
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Speaker 1: bruises covering her body were not addressed at all except
17:06
Speaker 1: to say her first grade students must have what mob
17:09
Speaker 1: attacked her and bruised her. There were fresh bruises on
17:14
Speaker 1: her wrists, and there were bruises that looked like if
17:17
Speaker 1: I could see those fingertip bruises around her neck. And
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Speaker 1: the theory is that she was subdued by strangulation and
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Speaker 1: then killed by stabbing. This is what we call a
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Speaker 1: rubber stamp. To Guy DeAndrea joining us, former prosecutor in
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Speaker 1: this dish attorney's office who waved a red flag, sounded
17:44
Speaker 1: the bell of alarm that this was not a suicide.
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Speaker 1: What happened when you did that at the time.
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Speaker 3: Guy, that's what's crazy. Nancy I, in twenty seventeen, after
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Speaker 3: doing a full investigation, went to office, including the Medical
18:01
Speaker 3: Examiner's office, and said, the findings are clear. This is
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Speaker 3: not a suicide, and they agreed, let me be clear,
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Speaker 3: the Medical Examiner's office in twenty seventeen, right before I
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Speaker 3: left the office, agreed that at a minimum this was inconclusive,
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Speaker 3: and so all they wanted was the neuropathological report to
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Speaker 3: determine whether it was going to remain inconclusive or move
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Speaker 3: to a homicide.
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Speaker 1: That was how I left things in twenty seventeen.
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Speaker 3: So, Nancy, it's now twenty twenty five and they've reverted
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Speaker 3: back to this doubling down. So I don't know if
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Speaker 3: they lied to me or what. But I don't know
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Speaker 3: what's happening when everyone was on the same page in
18:44
Speaker 3: January of twenty seventeen.
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Speaker 1: I'm joining US Dodger Kendall, Crown's renowned chief medical examiner
18:51
Speaker 1: in Fort Worth, Star of Mayhem, and the Morgue and
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Speaker 1: Lecturerer Burnette School of Medicine. This was a ten inn
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Speaker 1: kitchen knife. I'm curious about the angle. Was it from
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Speaker 1: up to down, right to left? What do you make
19:11
Speaker 1: of the weapon and what can we learn from it?
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Speaker 10: So looking at the stab wounds, it appears as several
19:20
Speaker 10: are superficial, but there are important ones that go very deep.
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Speaker 10: One getting the aortic arch on getting the liver, the
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Speaker 10: length of the blade. It can be shoved in because
19:30
Speaker 10: the skin is elastic, can be pushed further than the
19:33
Speaker 10: blade is deep. But the main one that is really
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Speaker 10: upsetting to me is stab wound tea, which I have
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Speaker 10: a demonstration knife here, but it's entering into the back
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Speaker 10: of the head and going kind of into the cervical
19:48
Speaker 10: spine and hitting the epidural surface of the cervical spine,
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Speaker 10: which is meaning it's coming in contact with C two,
19:57
Speaker 10: which would instantly make her a quadriplegic. So some of
20:00
Speaker 10: the photographs you've shown of the neck shows hemorrhages of
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Speaker 10: the neck. That would be like someone grabbing her by
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Speaker 10: the neck and putting pressure on her neck. That could
20:11
Speaker 10: be a strangulation. And the problem is is often with
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Speaker 10: strangulations is they incapacitate the person, but they don't keep
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Speaker 10: the strangulation going long enough to kill them. The person
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Speaker 10: comes back alive. The individual panics and then looks for
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Speaker 10: another method of killing them, often a knife because they're
20:29
Speaker 10: very available in the kitchen, and then begins stabbing them.
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Speaker 10: Some of them are shallow and some of them are deep.
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Speaker 10: But the one that goes through the neck into the
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Speaker 10: cervical spine would have incapacitated her immediately, and she shouldn't
20:42
Speaker 10: have been able to stick a knife in her chest
20:44
Speaker 10: after that because she wouldn't have had any function to
20:48
Speaker 10: her arms or legs or anything at that moment. So
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Speaker 10: it's very very.
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Speaker 1: Suspect to me.
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Speaker 10: It's not a suicide at best, I'd say undetermined, but
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Speaker 10: it really looks like a homicide.
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Speaker 3: Me.
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Speaker 1: Well, if it's not, put him up please, you know,
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Speaker 1: doctor Kimdall Crowns, is very rare that I get to
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Speaker 1: cross examine a medical examiner and think I actually know
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Speaker 1: something more than they did. But you said, at best
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Speaker 1: it's inconclusive. Isn't it true that there are only a
21:18
Speaker 1: very limited modes of death manner of death. You've got
21:24
Speaker 1: a lot of causes of death. You can be drowned,
21:26
Speaker 1: you can die in an accident, you can uh. Modes
21:31
Speaker 1: of death. Manners of death are accident, natural causes, right, suicide,
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Speaker 1: homicide and undetermined?
21:45
Speaker 9: Right?
21:45
Speaker 1: So I don't have all the did I get them all? Okay?
21:52
Speaker 1: So do you think this is.
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Speaker 10: Suicide or homicide?
21:57
Speaker 6: Right?
21:57
Speaker 1: No, it's not an accidents, not natural source.
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Speaker 10: Of a phone call that she could have fallen on
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Speaker 10: the knife, which is entertaining, but it could be a
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Speaker 10: suicider or homicide, right, And the problem is is you
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Speaker 10: have wounds on the body that would incapacitate her, and
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Speaker 10: how could she continue functioning after those wounds occurred? And
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Speaker 10: again without all the information, I would like to see
22:21
Speaker 10: the photographs and the scene pictures and all that, but
22:24
Speaker 10: I feel like what I'm seeing right now, and yes,
22:28
Speaker 10: a bruise of that nature is not going to be
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Speaker 10: caused by a first grader because they don't have the look.
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Speaker 1: Look, do you see the resolving bruises to the right.
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Speaker 1: Those are blue, Those are what we call in resolution.
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Speaker 1: Those are older, they're already turning blue, they're starting to dissipate.
22:50
Speaker 1: The bright purple one is the one that is recent.
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Speaker 1: Explain how we know that.
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Speaker 10: So bruses go through different colors stages as they resolve
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Speaker 10: or heal. Of course, everybody's resolution is different and how
23:06
Speaker 10: quickly they heal and how quickly they disappear. But when
23:09
Speaker 10: you're looking at bruises, you can say those bruises occurred
23:12
Speaker 10: during different time periods because the ones are kind of
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Speaker 10: a blue gray, whereas the one in the middle is
23:17
Speaker 10: a reddish brown of reddish purple coloration. So the big
23:21
Speaker 10: reddish purple one happened before the other two did. But
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Speaker 10: the problem I have with that bruises. There's no way
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Speaker 10: a first grader did that to her because they don't
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Speaker 10: have the power, They don't have the grip strength, they
23:31
Speaker 10: don't have the ability to punch that hard. That to
23:34
Speaker 10: me looks like someone grabbed her by the arm and
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Speaker 10: was holding her arm down while they while they were
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Speaker 10: sticking a knife into the back of her head.
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Speaker 1: Regarding the bruise we're showing right now, once someone is dead,
23:48
Speaker 1: they cannot bruise. Isn't that correct, Doctor funeral crowns.
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Speaker 10: That's correct. Once you're dead, you no longer have your
23:54
Speaker 10: blood pumping because the pressure is gone and the bruises
23:58
Speaker 10: won't form.
23:59
Speaker 1: Another thing in the new medical report translation, cover up,
24:05
Speaker 1: rubber stamp cya, cover your anus. These bruises are as
24:15
Speaker 1: we've already mentioned, attributed to her first grade students. Nothing
24:20
Speaker 1: explains away the post mortem stab, the stab that didn't
24:28
Speaker 1: bleed because she was already dead. What she did that
24:32
Speaker 1: to Could you explain why that is? A non secretary
24:36
Speaker 1: does not follow.
24:38
Speaker 10: Well Again, anytime you stab a person after their heart
24:42
Speaker 10: stop beating, there will be no blood in the wound
24:45
Speaker 10: cavity because there's no pressure left to fill it up
24:48
Speaker 10: with blood. So any wound that has no blood happened
24:51
Speaker 10: after she died, and so that makes it impossible to
24:55
Speaker 10: have occurred. But again I still maintain that I feel
24:58
Speaker 10: that cervical spines dab would have incapacitated her immediately.
25:04
Speaker 1: Look at the diagram you're talking about the knife going
25:07
Speaker 1: in from what we see right behind her ear. Is
25:10
Speaker 1: that the stab you're talking about?
25:12
Speaker 10: That's correct.
25:13
Speaker 1: John Lucy joining us, author of Kill the Story, who's
25:17
Speaker 1: been on this case from the beginning. For those that
25:21
Speaker 1: are not familiar with the post mortem stab, could you
25:25
Speaker 1: explain it, John Lucy, Yeah.
25:29
Speaker 5: This was something that was only came to light years after,
25:32
Speaker 5: and only because the Greenbergs were pressing the case. But
25:35
Speaker 5: they found a sample of Ellen's spinal cord that had
25:40
Speaker 5: been incised with a knife, and they determined there was
25:44
Speaker 5: no bleeding. And then they had the pathologist who examined
25:48
Speaker 5: the tissue on this under oath and she admitted there
25:55
Speaker 5: was no blood associated with that wound, and that one
25:58
Speaker 5: of the explanations was it it was post mortem. Now
26:02
Speaker 5: in the new report, doctor Lindsay Simon offers another explanation.
26:07
Speaker 5: Again she cherry picked everything and made the conclusions all
26:11
Speaker 5: favored suicide. She says that nick to the spinal cord
26:16
Speaker 5: was done at odutopsy. Of course that's been rejected by
26:21
Speaker 5: the Greenberg's case.
26:24
Speaker 1: So now she's blaming the post mortem stab on the
26:29
Speaker 1: medical examiner. That they must have stabbed the victim. They
26:32
Speaker 1: must have stabbed Ellen during autopsy.
26:35
Speaker 5: Yes, that is the explanation she is using in the report,
26:38
Speaker 5: and she is saying all of Ellen was alive when
26:42
Speaker 5: all of the wounds were sustained by her, and she
26:46
Speaker 5: actually ups the number of stab wounds to twenty three
26:50
Speaker 5: to Chancre, she's saying she found up to eight shallow wounds,
26:57
Speaker 5: which she describes as hesitation wounds, which are common to
27:03
Speaker 5: suicides by stabbing. In other words, shallows put him up.
27:09
Speaker 1: They're called exploratory or experimental wounds when somebody's trying to
27:15
Speaker 1: stab themselves and they don't really have the guts to
27:17
Speaker 1: do it, so they're kind of like trying it out.
27:21
Speaker 1: John Lucy, are you familiar with the methods and Assessment
27:27
Speaker 1: of homicide and suicide which reveals how unlikely it is
27:33
Speaker 1: for a female to stab herself dead. Yes, practically never. Also,
27:42
Speaker 1: many of the experimental exploratory wounds were to her back.
27:49
Speaker 1: Isn't that true, John Lucy?
27:52
Speaker 5: Yes, and the Greenbergs, to their credit, had a computer
27:56
Speaker 5: simulation of all the wounds in place an imaginary digital
28:02
Speaker 5: life into the direction of each stab wound based on
28:05
Speaker 5: all the notes at autopsy, and it clearly shows basically
28:09
Speaker 5: it was biomechanically impossible for her to inflict a lot
28:13
Speaker 5: of those wounds to her back of the head and neck.
28:17
Speaker 5: But again doctor Lindsay Simon takes the other side and
28:22
Speaker 5: says that while these were the distribution of wounds were unusual,
28:29
Speaker 5: her words, they were not impossible.
28:32
Speaker 1: So and again impossible, Okay, if you want to believe
28:37
Speaker 1: the first graders attacked her and she is an Olympic
28:40
Speaker 1: gymnast and could do a contortion to stab herself in
28:44
Speaker 1: the back, and isn't it true Doctor Kendall Crown's chief
28:49
Speaker 1: medical Examiner Terren County, that you would have to do
28:54
Speaker 1: experiments to determine whether she could stab herself in the
28:58
Speaker 1: back and whether she could to have herself after she's
29:01
Speaker 1: already dead. But there were no measurements taken off her
29:04
Speaker 1: arms or to determine was this even possible. None of
29:12
Speaker 1: that was done.
29:14
Speaker 10: Correct, None of that was done. And also wounds were
29:17
Speaker 10: not documented. Even those wounds of the photographs that you
29:21
Speaker 10: have with the bruises on the neck were not documented
29:23
Speaker 10: in the report. So to me, there's information that wasn't
29:26
Speaker 10: even put in the report to begin with, So it
29:30
Speaker 10: makes the whole thing questionable.
29:36
Speaker 1: To the back a horrible gasp on the back of
29:40
Speaker 1: her head.
29:41
Speaker 2: Kick her head. I think she hit her head.
29:43
Speaker 9: I think.
29:45
Speaker 1: Straight out to my co author benet now Or, who
29:48
Speaker 1: tirelessly comed through facts with me to write what happened
29:54
Speaker 1: to Ellen, got a question for you, Bene during all
30:00
Speaker 1: these nine one one calls, I don't hear a peep
30:03
Speaker 1: from the doorman, The doorman that the fiance says came
30:09
Speaker 1: up with him to watch him as a witness. I guess,
30:14
Speaker 1: break down the door. Why am I not hearing the
30:18
Speaker 1: doorman at all? On the nine one one calls if
30:22
Speaker 1: he was standing right there at the door like the fiance.
30:26
Speaker 4: Said, because he swears and said so you know in
30:32
Speaker 4: a deposition that he was not there, that he never
30:35
Speaker 4: left his post. The doorman swears unwaveringly and said so
30:43
Speaker 4: in a deposition that he was not at that door,
30:46
Speaker 4: that he was asked by Sam Goldberg to accompany him
30:50
Speaker 4: there but did not, that he could not leave his
30:52
Speaker 4: post and he was not there period.
30:57
Speaker 1: Bennet, you spoke with the dorman, Yes, what did he
31:03
Speaker 1: tell you happened the night Allen was murdered.
31:06
Speaker 4: He said that Sam Goldberg asked him to accompany him
31:11
Speaker 4: to the apartment, and that he said he could not
31:13
Speaker 4: leave his post.
31:14
Speaker 1: He said that video.
31:16
Speaker 4: Shows that he did not leave his post, He was
31:19
Speaker 4: not there, and.
31:20
Speaker 1: He said anything.
31:23
Speaker 4: That that is an out and out lie. That never happened.
31:27
Speaker 4: Anyone who says he did that is lying.
31:30
Speaker 1: Bene Hour, How did this whole thing start with dorman?
31:34
Speaker 4: Sam Goldberg went to him, explained that he was having
31:38
Speaker 4: trouble getting into the apartment where his fiancee was. He
31:42
Speaker 4: couldn't get in. He asked the doorman to go with
31:46
Speaker 4: him to accompany him to the apartment, and the doorman said,
31:51
Speaker 4: I absolutely cannot leave my post and did not go
31:55
Speaker 4: with Sam. He swears and said in the deposition that
31:58
Speaker 4: he did not leave his positions, his posts, and did
32:02
Speaker 4: not accompany Sam Goldberg to the door. That he was
32:06
Speaker 4: not there, He was not standing there when the call
32:09
Speaker 4: was made to nine to one one, that he did
32:11
Speaker 4: not go with him. He did not witness anything that
32:14
Speaker 4: happened there personally.
32:15
Speaker 1: So there were no witnesses to the fiance breaking down
32:20
Speaker 1: the door, and the dorman did not go up as
32:25
Speaker 1: a witness. Correct.
32:29
Speaker 4: And he swears to that absolutely and says anybody who
32:32
Speaker 4: says otherwise is lying, and that there is no video evidence.
32:37
Speaker 7: Of it, that he was not there.
32:38
Speaker 1: So the video bears out what the dorman is saying.
32:42
Speaker 4: Correct.
32:48
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace to Judge Pat Dugan seventeen
32:59
Speaker 1: years on the bench, former Army Captain Judge Dugan, why
33:05
Speaker 1: won't the District Attorney's office hand over Ellen's file to
33:10
Speaker 1: her parents?
33:13
Speaker 6: So what I really don't understand is that mister Krasner
33:17
Speaker 6: actually represented there the Greenberg's in the death of Ellen
33:24
Speaker 6: before he was the District Attorney, So he had a
33:26
Speaker 6: personal file involved in this case before he was the DA.
33:31
Speaker 6: And according to Josh and Sandy, they've asked mister Krasner
33:35
Speaker 6: for that file back, and for whatever reason, he's not
33:39
Speaker 6: given back that file. Now, there might be a few
33:44
Speaker 6: things in there that Krasner wants to keep, you know,
33:47
Speaker 6: deep thoughts and all that, but most of that should
33:49
Speaker 6: be turned over to the client. So I don't understand
33:53
Speaker 6: why that personal file for for Ellen's parents have not
33:58
Speaker 6: been turned over to them. I believe belongs to them.
34:01
Speaker 8: The police changed their theory on homicide because they could
34:06
Speaker 8: not find defensive wounds. So let's start there. Ellen's wrists
34:12
Speaker 8: were both badly bruised, like she was being restrained. Number two,
34:17
Speaker 8: there were wounds to her neck consistent with strangulation. Number three,
34:26
Speaker 8: the two wounds that were in Ellen's back of her
34:29
Speaker 8: neck and in her chest. The medical examiner of the
34:33
Speaker 8: medical examiners before she was dismissed said that those were
34:38
Speaker 8: post mortem. We've been looking at the knife wounds. We
34:42
Speaker 8: should have looked at strangulation. I Patiki et cetera. Looking
34:46
Speaker 8: at the layers of the muscle around the neck for bleeding.
34:49
Speaker 1: From Fox News Digital, figure out how could that be
35:00
Speaker 1: ruled suicide? It seemingly never ends. I remember do you
35:11
Speaker 1: been an hour? The elation we shared with Josh and
35:15
Speaker 1: Sandy Greenberg when a new review was ordered a new
35:21
Speaker 1: review of the evidence. I guess I should have seen
35:25
Speaker 1: it coming when you don't know a horse, look at
35:28
Speaker 1: his track record. But I genuinely thought that there would
35:32
Speaker 1: be an impartial review and Ellen could finally get justice.
35:36
Speaker 1: That did not happen. Why are we so naive it?
35:43
Speaker 4: There's not a better word than stunning and outrageous for
35:47
Speaker 4: all of this.
35:47
Speaker 1: And I have heard.
35:49
Speaker 4: I have listened to that nine to one one recording
35:52
Speaker 4: no fewer than fifty times, and it still takes my
35:56
Speaker 4: breath away. She stabbed herself bell on the knife. It's
36:02
Speaker 4: beyond comprehension. And when it was announced that this would
36:08
Speaker 4: be reopened, people were thrilled. And I cannot tell you
36:11
Speaker 4: the outpouring that I received after this news that it
36:15
Speaker 4: was labeled a suicide. Again from people on Instagram via email,
36:20
Speaker 4: getting called it's stunning, it's outrageous, it's unbelievable and devastating.
36:27
Speaker 1: It can't be real. Wouldn't you agree? John Lucy, journalistpenlive
36:33
Speaker 1: dot com and the patient Newshresburg, PA, author of killed
36:36
Speaker 1: the Story. Wouldn't you agree Lucy that the last thing Shapiro,
36:45
Speaker 1: the governor of Pennsylvania, who was then the state attorney general,
36:51
Speaker 1: the top colp of the state had been the district attorney.
36:55
Speaker 1: The last thing he needs to see chries to wedge
36:57
Speaker 1: his big toe back into the Oval office like he
36:59
Speaker 1: did with Harris, that close, that close to the Oval offices. Man,
37:04
Speaker 1: The last thing he needs is Ellen Greenberg rising up
37:10
Speaker 1: from the dead to bite him in the neck. In
37:14
Speaker 1: other words, a full on investigation of the DA staff
37:20
Speaker 1: coercing the medical Lexander to change is ruling, and the
37:25
Speaker 1: ag Shapiro rubber stamping that instead of doing anything about it.
37:32
Speaker 1: That's like, you know, biting a snake bite to the neck.
37:38
Speaker 5: He doesn't want that, No, absolutely not. And he was
37:43
Speaker 5: questioned right after the settlement that the Greensburg reached in February,
37:48
Speaker 5: had a press conference that was called for another reason,
37:51
Speaker 5: but a reporter there pressed him on the Greenberg case.
37:56
Speaker 5: He doubled down on suicide before the new me doubled
38:01
Speaker 5: down on suicide. And certainly any investigation that would show
38:05
Speaker 5: otherwise would make Shapiro look bad because he had this
38:10
Speaker 5: case as Attorney General of PA for four long years
38:16
Speaker 5: and nothing happened. He claims there was a thorough investigation
38:21
Speaker 5: and everything he turned up pointed to suicide as well,
38:25
Speaker 5: and he's on record reiterating that as recently as earlier
38:31
Speaker 5: this year. So certainly as this gains momentum, and as
38:35
Speaker 5: you see, it's a political football now and play in
38:39
Speaker 5: the Philly das race, so it could be an issue.
38:44
Speaker 5: And I'm online all the time and on X and
38:47
Speaker 5: it's all over the place, and a lot of fingers
38:50
Speaker 5: are pointing at Shapiro.
38:52
Speaker 1: To Judge Pat Dugan, seventeen years on the bench, Army
38:57
Speaker 1: captain for the Philadelphia District Attorney's position, it seems like
39:06
Speaker 1: an unholy caval. I mean, I'm on the outside looking in.
39:12
Speaker 1: I'm just a trial lawyer. My specialty homicide. That's really
39:18
Speaker 1: all I know how to do. And I can tell
39:21
Speaker 1: you right now, Dugan, this is no suicide. So the
39:28
Speaker 1: only way to get around that, which I know to
39:31
Speaker 1: be true, is that for some reason, they don't want
39:36
Speaker 1: this case reopened. So you are going to be up
39:39
Speaker 1: against it. Everyone will be against you when you try
39:42
Speaker 1: to reopen his case if you get that far.
39:46
Speaker 6: So, Nancy, I guess I'm a unicorn. I swore the
39:51
Speaker 6: oath as a soldier and as a judge to hold
39:54
Speaker 6: up honor and justice I am not worried about politics.
40:00
Speaker 6: I'm running for office, but I really don't care about
40:02
Speaker 6: the Democrats the Republicans, I really don't care. I care
40:06
Speaker 6: about the victims and the rule of law. I've been
40:10
Speaker 6: a public servant almost my entire life, and that both
40:14
Speaker 6: does not have an end date on it. So I
40:16
Speaker 6: honestly don't care where the pressure comes from. Wherever the
40:19
Speaker 6: evidence leads me to is where I will go with
40:24
Speaker 6: that evidence, particularly pertaining to the death of someone.
40:27
Speaker 1: Reminder, no one has been charged or named as a
40:31
Speaker 1: person of interest in the murder of Ellen Greenberg. Her
40:36
Speaker 1: parents need our help. If you know or think you
40:41
Speaker 1: know anything about this case, regardless of whether you think
40:47
Speaker 1: it's inconsequential, doesn't matter. First of all, don't call the
40:51
Speaker 1: Governor's office, don't call Shapiro, don't call the Attorney General.
40:56
Speaker 1: So call the US Attorney appointed for the Eastern District
41:03
Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania, which governs this jurisdiction of Philadelphia. We have
41:08
Speaker 1: to bring in the FEDS, and I implore you to
41:12
Speaker 1: please call the US Attorney in that jurisdiction. David Metcalf
41:17
Speaker 1: number two one five eight six 't one eighty two hundred,
41:22
Speaker 1: repeat two one five eight six' one eighty two one.
41:27
Speaker 1: HUNDRED i never envisioned a day THAT i would, advise
41:32
Speaker 1: don't call the, governor don't call the district. Attorney but
41:38
Speaker 1: that day has. Come we stopped and remember An american,
41:42
Speaker 1: Hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew Nuna's San Bernardino County, Sheriff's, california
41:48
Speaker 1: just twenty eight shot in the line of, duty leaving
41:53
Speaker 1: behind his pregnant wife and their two years year old.
42:00
Speaker 1: Daughter american Hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew Nunez Nancy grace signing
42:07
Speaker 1: off goodbye, friend