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283 - Robert Digings: Fostering Highly Relational Teams · Coaches Rising

• 0:00
  [UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
• 0:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: welcome back.
• 0:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the coach's rising podcast and I'm delighted today to be joined by Robert Diggings.
• 0:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: He is a highly successful executive coach and team development consultant and I wanted to invite him onto the podcast to explore why he is in such demand and what is the work that he is actually doing with team.
• 0:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we will unpack what kinds of frameworks does Robert hold,
• 0:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll explore topics such as what he sees as the key for effective teams, how we can able higher team coherence, and what are the four main emotions he supports his clients to master?
• 1:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, as I said, Robert is an executive coach of team development consultant,
• 1:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: He draws on integrative trainings such as Gestalt, organizational constellation, systems coaching, the Enneagram and the Diamond Approach, and he spent thousands of hours working with individuals and teams, including clients such as network rail, BBC, travel lodge, Jaguar Land Rover Capital 1 and Leon Restaurant.
• 1:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we are in safe hands with this topic, so that all being said, let's dive in.
• 1:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Here's the podcast with Robert Diggings.
• 1:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, Robert, I am thrilled to be with you today.
• 1:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Ever since we met a number of months ago, actually, it was online, I was just really excited to hear about the work you're up for you.
• 1:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, we're going to dive into that today.
• 1:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: How are you, Festival?
• 1:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really well and I'm delighted to be in conversation with you, Joe, thank you so much for asking me.
• 2:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, one of the things that made me so excited was when you talked about the work you do as a coach and, you know, how in demand you are.
• 2:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I just thought, wow, what an opportunity to unpack it from lots of different angles.
• 2:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what are you up to with the people you coach?
• 2:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: definitely.
• 2:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, I might even say, I don't know that I'm a coach, but we can explore that in this conversation.
• 2:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I definitely see coaching as an activity, but I would question whether it's a role perhaps, maybe just because of the way I approach my work.
• 2:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm definitely
• 2:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that does involve some coaching, but it involves other things as well.
• 2:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: So my client's tend to say, oh, it's our team coach, I would never say that.
• 3:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would say I'm a team development consultant and I'm a practising team development consultant.
• 3:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I not only have thoughts about the theory of that, but I meet with teams and sit with them and do stuff with them.
• 3:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have done a lot of coaching in my time.
• 3:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've probably been coaching for about 20 years as an exec coach.
• 3:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have done thousands of hours of one-to-one coaching work, but over the last 15 years also, I have developed a specialism, I guess.
• 3:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think I know quite a lot about this subject
• 3:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: as a practitioner to help teams explore their teamliness with an orientation of course to it's hard that the words are not ideal but to improve that or to the idea of a maturity journey.
• 4:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hold these things very lightly because
• 4:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure that they capture the much of the truth of what's happening, but of course I'm engaged by businesses who want to get better at something and the thing that they engage me to help them with is to get better at being a team.
• 4:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever that is and maybe we could explore possibly what we might think that is or what I'm trying to do.
• 4:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love the idea that
• 4:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: that the people in the room are there to try and work out why they're there.
• 4:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I would say that's part of my practice is that I'm engaged to help or to be useful.
• 5:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: But what that actually means for any particular team or group of people is something that maybe might be known at the end of the process, but possibly isn't really,
• 5:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: if that makes any sense.
• 5:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Joe.
• 5:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like a joke.
• 5:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what I'm doing.
• 5:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to live alive, don't.
• 5:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that's also important, isn't it?
• 5:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think we can pick that up as a topic, not knowing what we're doing.
• 5:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think you mean that in a very particular way, not that you just kind of blend her in and just make it up, but that not knowing is actually important.
• 5:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder, you said, and I can't quite capture the way you phrased it, but you said, you know, I'm kind of helping a team mature and improve, but actually, you know, that doesn't really capture what's happening.
• 5:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to put it into words, but what?
• 6:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you could speak a little bit more to what's happening within teams when, you know, when they're mature or when you've, after you've been working them for a period of time, what, what is it that you start to see happening with teams?
• 6:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: as a fantastic question.
• 6:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So my practice is unashamedly a relational practice.
• 6:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm very clear what I offer and I don't offer the whole range of intervention that a team might need in order to become excellent.
• 6:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: My practice is about improving interpersonal relationships in the
• 6:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I would also say that I believe and have found that that is the thing that most teams every team that I've worked with get the biggest return on their time and money investment is moving the dial on the quality of human relationship.
• 7:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: all sorts of other things tumble out of that that are wanted and desirable in a business context.
• 7:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a little bit provocative perhaps to say it, but I think that high performing teams, the notion of a high performing team is out of date and no longer fit for purpose.
• 7:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was fine for the 1980s and 90s to, for a team to aspire to be high performing.
• 7:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I don't believe that's the case now.
• 7:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: because performance is an output and the world has changed and so my orientation or my way of expressing that is to say don't aspire to be high performing aspire to be highly relational.
• 7:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the focus needs to be on relationship, not on performance.
• 8:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: and that then opens up I think the conversation which is like your question was about what am I doing or what am I improving?
• 8:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well I'm improving interpersonal relationship.
• 8:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that makes sense to me especially as, you know, it feels like things get a more
• 8:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know, I want to talk to you in a moment about what you mean by improving the interpersonal connection and how you do that.
• 8:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: But why is that important, you think?
• 8:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe could you share a little bit about how you often find teams, like are they disconnected?
• 8:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, is there a lack of interpersonal connection?
• 8:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, why is it important to be connected in that way in our times?
• 9:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think there are multiple facets to your question, or to attempt to answer, I think we are in namely social, so we are social mammals, and we have evolved in relationship in hunter-gatherer
• 9:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think we get an enormous amount of fulfillment and joy and meaning and possibly even our own sense of identity through relationship.
• 9:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I might even say we don't really exist except in relationship.
• 9:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the notion of teams in business is of course,
• 10:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: not perhaps oriented around fulfillment and joy in relationship.
• 10:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's more to do with, of course, commercial outputs or stakeholder outputs of some kind or delivering on promises to other parts of the business.
• 10:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: But what I think has happened is that completely unintentionally,
• 10:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: we have slept walked into a corporate notion or culture where task and commercial output or business output has become the focus.
• 10:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so in that we have lost a lot of humanity in the workplace.
• 10:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And for me, the humanity is another way of saying that it is, we've lost the,
• 10:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: importance of human contact and the value that we have in innately wired into us for relationship, for high quality relationship, for meaningful relationship, for relationship that matters to us, that gives us a sense of value and belonging and a connection that matters.
• 11:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it just, I'm very touched by what you share, and I'm imagining as well that as teams begin to find that sense of connection and meaning, there's a different kind of performance that can emerge in, I'm thinking also of, you know, creativity and novelty and innovation as well.
• 11:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 11:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: All of these things come, you know, it's possible to be, of course, creative on one's own.
• 11:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: But in a team, in a team context, in a business context, creativity is a relational activity, or a relational pursuit.
• 12:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the best innovation comes from the colliding of different ideas, colliding of perspectives.
• 12:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: colliding of dreams out of which, as you've said, innovation or novelty or new ideas come about that can then be assessed and compared and the business overall can innovate in some form.
• 12:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I agree with you entirely that the innovation that so many businesses want comes
• 12:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: from, you know, there are different ways of looking at it, but from my perspective, they come from high quality relationships, high quality thinking, high quality contact leads to much better ideas, much better solutions to the challenges that our all businesses and teams are facing now and perhaps always have.
• 13:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And do you find that companies are coming to you?
• 13:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, they are in a way, but because if I think about the times we find ourselves in and I hear certain stories, it's as if like, one of the stories I hear is like people double down on performance, the double down on tasks and getting things done and
• 13:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: and economic output, and so, you know, do you find companies are actually saying, no, we recognize that it's our interpersonal relational connections that we really need to focus on, actually, or is it a bit of a trojan horse, do you find
• 13:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, they, they, like, as you alluded to at the beginning, they, they might not exactly know what they, they need, they need something and then they find out as you journey together.
• 14:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's all about this interpersonal connection.
• 14:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: for all companies, maybe only a small percentage perhaps would be interested in the kind of relational work that I do.
• 14:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't I don't think it's universally wanted.
• 14:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: But there are and I'm not sure that it's necessarily even wanted across a whole
• 14:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: who either intuit or want to experiment or have seen the benefit of improving relationship.
• 14:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then they are much more likely, of course, to seek a practitioner
• 15:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: who might be very, maybe very valuable.
• 15:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not knocking that at all, but would have perhaps an approach that is not so much about just the quality of the relationships that exist in the room.
• 15:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So in my view is that the team is the relational network.
• 15:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not the people.
• 15:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's just my opinion, that's what I've come to believe about it.
• 15:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it is a different way of thinking about what a team is, because it's very easy to think that the team are the individuals who sit around the table or in a circle.
• 15:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would say, no, the team is the relational web.
• 15:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you entertain that idea then you can immediately see why if you want to improve the team you need to improve the quality of the interpersonal relationships because I'm kind of saying, well that is what the team is.
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, when you said every, you know, we're always in relationship, I think you said, and I think that's, we're moving out of an era where we, you know, we kind of atomized leaders and everything was fixed, you know, and separate and, and now it feels, you know, I hear a lot of speaking of regenerative.
• 16:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: leadership and ways of doing business and so what you're saying for me feels really aligned with that movement and maybe maybe we could dive in here to what you actually do with teams.
• 16:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: What do you find is important in building this relationality?
• 17:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you do that?
• 17:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's so funny, isn't it?
• 17:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because we, on one level, we all know how to do that.
• 17:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody knows how to do that.
• 17:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because we are, we've evolved to do that.
• 17:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's more that the question might be more to do with, well, what stops that happening, how it work, than the idea that, I mean, I kind of, earlier said that I helped teams and developer whatever,
• 17:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: my work leads to that happening.
• 17:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: The greater truth would be they do it.
• 17:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean I can't it's none of us can really impact a relational system unless we're in it and then we might be able to improve the bit that we're in and encourage others to improve the bits that they're responsible for.
• 17:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not sure, I think I might have sounded earlier as if I had some kind of power over teams.
• 18:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, I don't want to make that explicit that as with all coaching or this kind of intentional conversational-based work.
• 18:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: As a practitioner,
• 18:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I have a great deal of agency, the client has the agency.
• 18:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not imposing anything.
• 18:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Your question about
• 18:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: the how is fascinating.
• 18:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I can answer it in a, so the first thing is to say, well, we maybe it isn't about doing something, maybe it's about helping the team stop doing something, or helping the people just come back to the value of relationship.
• 18:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think we kind of know, I mean, maybe these aren't universal trees, but I'd like kind of know, and I think most people would say that
• 19:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: that we kind of know that relationships are difficult and that they require continual effort.
• 19:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you think of a friendship or a family relationship or well any relationship or a romantic kind of committed partnership of any kind or a business business relationship or status of friends who go into business or whatever.
• 19:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're never done.
• 19:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: We can't tick a box and go, yes, we are fantastic friends.
• 19:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
• 19:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: The relationship requires no more attention.
• 19:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very easy to be fantastic friends and then
• 20:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so part of what I do is to remind people that another thing that I think we kind of know is that relationships takes time, takes time to form high quality relationship and we haven't as a species really come up with a way of expediting that.
• 20:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, not, in certain, in certain, very specific contexts, um, relationship can be expedited.
• 20:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: The military are very, very good at it, um, but they do it through very high levels of control of the environment, um, and adversity, uh, to a degree that most organizations couldn't do
• 20:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Navy seals are brought into exceptional high quality relationship or special forces around the world.
• 21:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: is not a method really that's open to business in any meaningful way just because what people would say I'm not doing that.
• 21:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's way beyond what is reasonable for us here in this restaurant chain or whatever.
• 21:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we can still take some of those learnings around how we come to really love one another in the military to be willing to die for each other.
• 21:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: whose job it is to be under life and death situations.
• 21:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's that job.
• 21:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we have that capacity in all of us to love someone or care about someone that we would be willing to sacrifice ourselves for them, for their well-being, or for their survival perhaps.
• 22:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So how can we take that?
• 22:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: phenomenon, and appropriately develop those kinds of relationships in a restaurant train or a bank or a pharmaceutical firm, you know, in a corporate setting.
• 22:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of what my practice is about is seeing the opportunity there that exists because we are a species of mammal that does this has have evolved to do this.
• 23:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: that would enable or support those kinds of really high-quality relationships to come about.
• 23:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: That would be the starting point at Joel.
• 23:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's really having a client that's willing to invest in a process that will deliver that,
• 23:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: very business like at the time of it happening.
• 23:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it might not deliver benefit rapidly.
• 23:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: It might, it might, it's a slow burn.
• 23:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you can't, you can't do this in a, in a two-day off-site.
• 23:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: It happens over months or probably in fact over years.
• 23:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like the way you talk about the special forces as an example and I'm thinking of what it, you know, one thing that they do is there's an intensity to the training and I'm thinking of often in teams.
• 24:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a, there's maybe an intensity around productivity and
• 24:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: often a lack of intimacy, a lack of intensity around connection and actually an avoidance of connection is kind of just focused on doing stuff and so I'm wondering if that's where there is opportunity for teams to create experiences where they're invited into
• 24:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: intimacy into connection.
• 24:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: There has an intensity to it, but that it's vulnerable, but that's where, you know, that's what human relationship is.
• 24:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, so often we're talking about stuff here, rather than about being in connection.
• 24:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't agree more.
• 25:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: What you've just said is,
• 25:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: The intensity that is appropriate in a corporate setting is facilitated by slowing down, by silence, and by not talking about things outside the room.
• 25:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: The instruction is just to talk about ourselves, so we're not going to talk about productivity, we're not going to look at a slide deck, we're not going to talk about the numbers and where we are on what we've got to do by the end of the quarter, which are all all relevant to the business without a doubt.
• 25:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: but they're not relevant to the relationships in the room.
• 26:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a journey of you use the word vulnerability.
• 26:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I totally agree, but I mean, there's so many such a paradox around vulnerability because it appears like it potentially is going to surface weakness, but what it actually does is create relational robustness or resilience or strength even.
• 26:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: My work is I guess very invitation or because you can't tell people to reveal themselves in a way that they don't want to.
• 26:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: That would be potentially damaging harmful abusive even.
• 26:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it is possible to create a space where.
• 26:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: if you're going to speak.
• 26:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you don't have to say anything.
• 26:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're sitting silence for 10 minutes.
• 26:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if someone is going to speak, they speak about something that matters to them, about themselves, about their hopes or fears or something that's worrying them.
• 27:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it has to be, of course, interpersonal relationship.
• 27:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: The clue is in the title, it's personal.
• 27:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we got to,
• 27:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: which is how we build friendship, and how we fall in love and form romantic partnership.
• 27:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: We take risk, we take interpersonal risk.
• 27:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we might start by saying, well, where do you live?
• 27:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And do you like red wine or white wine?
• 27:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of things that don't matter that much.
• 27:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then, gradually over time, well, we might say something a little bit more where we might be rejected, where we might say,
• 27:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was very, I was very lost, you know, I nearly died or my sister is lives a long way away and I really miss her and it's painful that I don't see her anymore because she lives halfway around the world and
• 28:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I only get to see my nieces and nephews twice a year.
• 28:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, as soon as we start sharing this kind of content, we are building into my relationship, because that's part of what that is.
• 28:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And,
• 28:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess that's part of what I'm doing with groups of people in a team, in an intact team, is inviting them to take greater interpersonal risk around things that matter to them.
• 28:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: In order for them to show up more fully in the team and be seen more fully.
• 28:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: people both really want that and really don't want that at the same time.
• 29:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just thinking about the spaces I'm in like that, where it's like, yeah, I mean, because being vulnerable is vulnerable, you know, you can get good at some people get good at being vulnerable, but then it loses its vulnerability in a sense, you know,
• 29:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, I can fully recognize what you say and I'm just thinking and it kind of tease up a question of, you know, a recent team meeting we had where someone shared what mattered to them and it was about their connection with me and it just dropped the whole space, you know, like it, and it created this quality of interpersonalness that was just not there before.
• 29:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I'm just curious how that is for you because it's, you know, one thing is, and it's important to share, you know, about my sister and I miss her.
• 30:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, do you invite teams as well into sharing what's the head between them?
• 30:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that may be unspoken.
• 30:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
• 30:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 30:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's plenty to talk about as soon as you.
• 30:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: there open the cupboard door, no shortage of stuff to talk about.
• 30:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: The question is how to do it in a way that
• 30:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: that feels perhaps a bit awkward but not so awkward that we don't want to do this anymore.
• 30:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, the appetite for this in a team, there is, it's very unlikely you're going to have everybody at the same, have the same level of appetite for for this kind of work.
• 31:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if there's someone, even just one person who absolutely does not want to do this, then it probably can't work.
• 31:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's okay.
• 31:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: So in order for a team to do the work, this kind of work, I would say everybody needs to be
• 31:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: to have a level of willingness, it doesn't mean that everybody has to share at the same level.
• 31:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it does require everybody to be willing to be present to those who are sharing things that really matter and to be willing to have a turn of doing that and it doesn't mean that everyone has to share it in exactly the same way or at the same depth.
• 32:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I think there's a need for everybody to be on board the process to some degree or it doesn't work because it's incredible how even if nine out of ten people really want this but one person doesn't the power that that person has on the whole system is quite considerable
• 32:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: and that needs to be really respected.
• 32:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so it might be, well, we either need to go slower.
• 32:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: That person may need some additional support if they are willing to be supported in taking part in the process.
• 32:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or in fact, this isn't right, this isn't going to be productive, and it would be better to do something different.
• 33:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if I was in that situation, I might be able to do something different that still felt within that it was within my practice, within what I do, or it might be that I'm saying, well, no, I don't think this is going to work and you need to probably engage a different practitioner who will work in a different way and support the team in a slightly different direction or support the team to develop in a slightly different way.
• 33:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this isn't everyone,
• 33:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's beautiful, you name that, and I'm just thinking of an organisation I heard of that actually made a real commitment to interpersonal development in a way.
• 33:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: that they said, this might not be for everyone, and if you don't want this, we respect that, but I will support you to exit the organization if you, you know, if it really doesn't fit, and they did that in a very, you know, carrying supportive way, but also honored.
• 34:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: their commitment to this is the culture we want to have now.
• 34:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, I hear it made a huge difference on their performance.
• 34:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Huge.
• 34:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 34:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So exactly.
• 34:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm of course not against high performance.
• 34:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the pursuit of high performance, to my point earlier, the pursuit of high performance has some significant unintended negative consequences, whereas
• 34:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: The pursuit of high quality relationships will deliver high performance and avoid some of the negative aspects of pursuing performance for its own sake.
• 34:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's part of my answer to your question earlier about, well, why?
• 34:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: What is it that teams want now that perhaps they didn't want in the 1980s or didn't need in the 1980s?
• 35:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I really, I love what you said about your example of somebody who can your team, bringing, I think if I under so correctly Joel, your their relationship with you into the, you know, to be, to actually speak to that incredibly powerful.
• 35:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, because it, because then there is a
• 35:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: turning of attention to the relationship, to a relationship in the room.
• 35:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, in the team, there are multiple relationships.
• 35:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: The equation is the number of people in the team, multiplied by the number of people in the team minus one divided by two.
• 35:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: That tells you how many how many separate one-to-one relationships there are.
• 35:57
  [UNKNOWN]: So
• 35:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: The equation is the number of people in the team, multiplied by the number of people in the team minus one divided by two.
• 36:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: That tells you how many unique one-to-one relationships there are in any group.
• 36:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that number rises exponentially each time you add a new person, which is why larger teams are so much more complex from a relational perspective because the whole team is having to manage many more one-to-one relationships.
• 36:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And my view is that, of course, a team member is responsible for the relationships that they're in, but their responsibility to the team doesn't end there.
• 36:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if everyone in the team is responsible for all of the one-to-one relationships, because although if in a team of say-10 people I'm in, I've got nine one-to-one relationships that I personally am in and I can attend to those relationships.
• 37:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are a whole load of relationships that I'm not in yet, I can support the quality of those relationships.
• 37:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or I can ignore them, or I can do things either deliberately or inadvertently that are detrimental to those relationships.
• 37:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, I often do make explicit to a team how many one-to-one relationships there are in the room,
• 37:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: how many of them they are actively paying attention to and attempting to support.
• 37:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And to finish that thought, I'll often say,
• 37:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: the way this team could rapidly improve its overall relational quality is if everybody in the team invested in the two or three least high quality relationships that they have, which is not what we tend to do unconsciously as human beings.
• 38:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: We tend to spend more time with the
• 38:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if you really want to improve the relationships in a team, it isn't the relationships that are in the room that aren't being attended to, that need to be attended to.
• 38:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I would look at, I would encourage people in the team to look around and identify the two or three people in the room with whom they have the least quality of relationship.
• 38:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't mean that they've had a
• 38:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: are falling out or some issue.
• 38:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: It just may be, well, I don't, I don't need to talk to that person very often.
• 38:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So my relationship with them is nowhere near as good as my relationship with Peter over here, because I speak to Peter three times a day.
• 38:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, yes, you do.
• 38:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if you actually invested in this, in the person that you don't need to speak to from a business point of view, you will, and if everybody did that, the quality of the overall,
• 39:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: relational dynamic in this in this team would would massively improve.
• 39:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, and and that links to my to my thing that the team is the is the relational web.
• 39:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: So let's make that that's make the relationships better and the whole the whole thing lifts the whole team will function it in a different way.
• 39:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love you bring this in because it and it actually brings up a question.
• 39:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: your role as a facilitator or a coach, whatever, however you'd like to use that to describe yourself.
• 39:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are you attuning to that sense of relationality in the team and naming what you see in a way that helps people maybe bring into awareness, what wasn't in awareness before, like what's your role in these times when the team comes together?
• 40:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: such a good question.
• 40:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the answer is it depends, which is a really good answer to almost any question that anybody can ever ask.
• 40:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I do do that sometimes, but I don't do it as a matter of course.
• 40:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if it occurred to me in the moment that that was something
• 40:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: that an either needed to be made explicit or would would in my best guess be useful if I named it.
• 40:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if I felt moved to name to name something like that, then there's a very high chance I would.
• 40:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: but it would be unpredictable.
• 40:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: The same thing could kind of happen on a different day with either the same team or a different team, and I wouldn't.
• 40:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not convinced that there are easy answers
• 41:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: to what is most useful.
• 41:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a slippery slope to conclude that one has developed enough as a practitioner to know that.
• 41:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's more likely that we don't know that, or for me to at least don't know that completely, that I don't know that.
• 41:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm in a space of
• 41:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very likely to be delusional for me to kind of go, or what this team, what I need to say now is this.
• 41:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, good luck with that.
• 41:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's taking me a long time to learn that, I guess.
• 42:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I joked earlier about, you know, what am I doing?
• 42:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't really know.
• 42:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you very kindly said, well, you're naming that in a very specific way,
• 42:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you kind of, um, you're, you're, you're right.
• 42:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have some skill.
• 42:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I do absolutely.
• 42:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm willing to own my expertise, but it's, it's some.
• 42:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps a way to put it is that I am confident enough in myself and not because I'm clever or talented, but because of the.
• 42:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: thousands of hours that I've spent sitting with teams that I could not have helped but learn unless I was completely not paying attention.
• 42:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Something about what might be useful to have the confidence that if I can only let go of knowing that I will then know what to say
• 43:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: as opposed to think that I can plan that or if you said to me in five minutes time x is going to happen what are you going to do?
• 43:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: My answer would be I don't know, but when it happens, when the person bursts into tears or when someone shouts at somebody else in the room, I have a confidence that I will respond to that appropriately.
• 43:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or, or if I get triggered inappropriately, but hopefully I will say something that somehow meets that moment, not brilliantly, but well enough.
• 43:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: good enough.
• 43:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's all that's required.
• 43:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a bit like parenting.
• 43:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: As soon as, again, I'm not, Joel, I'm not naming things that I think are universally true and I'm very happy for you and anyone else to have a completely different opinion.
• 44:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: For me, I'm not attempting to be a perfect practitioner.
• 44:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm
• 44:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm striving towards excellence and achieving something that's probably good enough most of the time and that is good enough
• 44:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is fascinating for me, Joe, because you're getting me to say things and think about things that I have not necessarily ever articulated before, which I'm really enjoying, and I'm listening to myself going, is that right?
• 44:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that?
• 44:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you sure you think that?
• 44:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think you're right now.
• 44:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Tomorrow, if you interview me tomorrow, perhaps I'd say something different.
• 44:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel pretty congruent with what I'm saying.
• 44:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's got to be, it is a truth of some kind that I'm expressing to you.
• 44:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I think actually what you're saying is really important.
• 44:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, what you described about striving for excellence and being good enough, I feel like that was describing a parent, like the gap between my ideal and the reality is like the pain that I experienced.
• 45:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: But the big shift that came in being a parent for me was to see that and go like, you know,
• 45:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: that that's striving for excellence is so there's a difference between striving for excellence, which I think a lot of practitioners do and that's beautiful.
• 45:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like that can be what drives us forward and then pursuit of perfection, a standard we set against ourselves that's, you know, suddenly we used to cast a gate ourselves continuously.
• 45:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so why I think what you said is so important
• 45:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're talking from me about mastery here, where, yeah, there is, if you start to relate to a group, especially groups of people, but even individuals, but with groups, even more so, you know, I've got a method and I'm going to, you know, take you rationally through this process and I know what needs to happen, dad, that's not how complex situations
• 46:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: work as I understand it.
• 46:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what I'm hearing is that you're actually, you're letting go of, you know, part of, part of facilitating in this way is,
• 46:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: like emptying out of what you think should happen and and actually being present with what is happening and, you know, and responding so, you know, your embodiment, the depth of your own maturation, you know, your own integration so you get triggered.
• 46:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Less all these things are actually playing out in how you're responding moment to moment to this group of human beings.
• 46:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
• 46:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And as soon as we strip away the, or say at least for this period of time, we're not worrying about the business or how we're doing from a business perspective.
• 47:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're just going how we're doing with each other.
• 47:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is very beautiful.
• 47:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very freeing.
• 47:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I see some people will really relax into their stuff.
• 47:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, this is great.
• 47:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, what a relief.
• 47:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, we've got a day or half a day or a couple of days where it isn't all about, you know, what the business needs or what our stakeholders need or what our investors need or it's just about us.
• 47:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: and some people invariably kind of go, wow, this is a bit slow, and when is it going to deliver something useful?
• 47:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's also, it's a completely legitimate perspective and I encourage those people to share that.
• 48:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: They'll say, this is frustratingly slow.
• 48:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've done nothing for the last three
• 48:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm definitely know that I am attempting to slow the team down.
• 48:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm invariably doing that.
• 48:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that I've ever worked with a team where I thought what I've got to do here is speed them up.
• 48:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And some people find that delightful and others find it frustrating.
• 48:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: But what's wonderful is when they express their frustration about it and say this is, you know, where's the value here and the value is cumulative.
• 48:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, like anything like going to the gym or changing your diet or.
• 48:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, learning to drive.
• 48:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a it's a home one level.
• 48:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a skill thing for the team.
• 49:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the.
• 49:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I used to attempt to answer, to speak to that thought.
• 49:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I used to many years ago, be more than happy to do a one-off team development off-site with a team.
• 49:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't do that anymore.
• 49:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I see no value in it.
• 49:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So my work is 12-month interventions or longer.
• 49:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: because relationships I don't have a way of doing it quickly and I don't believe there is a way of doing it quickly because if there was, we would all know it and we'd all be doing it.
• 49:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think it exists.
• 49:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't mean that it can't be invented, but at the moment, relationship building,
• 49:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: meaningful relationship, quality, relationship building, happens over time.
• 49:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so particularly when I work with a new team,
• 49:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: They may not really notice any difference that the work that I'm doing with them is having on them for six months plus into the engagement.
• 50:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a slow burn.
• 50:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a slow thing before.
• 50:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: suddenly the team will go, we are so different to how we were six months ago.
• 50:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: But they don't go, gosh, we're so different to how we were a month ago.
• 50:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, this hasn't done anything in a month, hasn't done anything in two months.
• 50:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, we're four months into this and it's still, we still, I haven't noticed any difference.
• 50:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what is this ever going to deliver something that we would all consider to be valuable?
• 50:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's a shift that happens that kind of, you know, seven or eight months in for most teams where they're kind of like they can check in properly
• 50:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: and not see the check-in as something that we've got to just get through to then do something to do the work.
• 50:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I will say to have a sage to things often in meetings, that if there is a check-in and often there isn't in most business meetings, but if there is a check-in, it's something to get through to start the work, to do the work of the meeting.
• 51:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas I'll say, this is the work, this check-in, and it might, you know, I've done check-ins with teams that have
• 51:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what we did for the whole day.
• 51:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: We just very, very slowly everybody checks in and they took 20 minutes each or more.
• 51:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: But to get a team to kind of see that this is the work,
• 51:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's normally a, that normally takes a bit of time and they'll, you know, they'll rush that.
• 51:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: They'll initially they'll rush the check-ins.
• 51:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, do you really, you don't really want to know how I am?
• 51:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm fine, you know, a bit tied in to people that well last night.
• 51:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then they'll move on.
• 51:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then after, after several months of this, someone will take 10 minutes to explain how they are, what's going on with something that
• 51:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: not necessarily bad thing could be something really joyful that, you know, something fantastic that has happened for their children or, you know, some really good news about a health issue that a parent has got.
• 52:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it can also be painful things.
• 52:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is, you know, I've got, I'm really worrying about this.
• 52:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: And instead of just saying it and then quickly moving on, they'll actually unpack it.
• 52:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's beautiful.
• 52:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and it's so contagious.
• 52:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's so permission-giving to others.
• 52:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, wow, they spent, you know, one of their parents has just died and they spent 10 minutes talking about it.
• 52:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: That gives me permission to talk about this thing that's happened in my life, because because that's what we're doing here.
• 52:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that, I mean, it's just, it's incredible.
• 52:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's beautiful work, but it,
• 52:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can't make people do it, you can't go what we're all going to do now is share deeply about stuff that's upsetting us.
• 52:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: People, you know, we all just go, well, we're not going to do that, Robert, so think of something.
• 52:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, how do we go?
• 52:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: How do we take the baby steps, Joel, to get to a place where people can, well, like the example that you gave, go, I want to talk about my relationship with you or my relationship with
• 53:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: a quick place to get to, but it's a beautiful place to get to.
• 53:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so touched that you're doing this and because, you know, even in a lot of interpersonal work,
• 53:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: which can be powerful, there's a kind of, there can be underlying it a sense of like, we're doing this to get to the performance, you know, to perform better.
• 53:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's not to say there isn't value that can come from it, but as I'm hearing you speak, it's like, no, it's actually really honoring that we're humanity and that we are relational creatures.
• 53:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're not doing this for the sake of something else, even though we start to see the benefits and I know you're in demand and people really want your services and it's really wanted by organisations.
• 54:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm touched by that, actually Robert.
• 54:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's beautiful and it's like, I think people are crying out for that, even if they don't know it.
• 54:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think probably a lot of people don't, wouldn't even be able to say it.
• 54:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm wondering, do you
• 54:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is it really in a sense about being with, you know, over 12 months, you're with a team and, you know, it's about we're going to create continuously create spaces where people can share what's alive for them even if that is about their interpersonal connection.
• 54:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: and that's kind of the core of it, you know, it's like just keep doing that and I'm going to stay with you.
• 54:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is there, do you build like layers of practice in or and and then just we we've in another quite a kind of podcasting when I can't help myself, which is like, do you find yourself like helping people contact themselves emotionally
• 55:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: For example, someone bursts into tears and then, you know, it's like, hey, there's just, there's just welcome this, you know, or yeah, this is here too, the tears are here too, like making normalizing, yeah, I'll stop the whole of that.
• 55:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, encouraging, I'm encouraging people to bring more of themselves into their own bit of a cliche, but that is what relationship is about is.
• 55:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are so many different ways of looking at it.
• 55:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: To belong, we want to belong on many, most of us want to belong.
• 55:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is, it can get disturbed, of course, through our very unfortunate childhood experience.
• 55:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: But for most of us, there's a desire to belong, but of course, to belong is a co-created phenomenon.
• 56:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: and we can only be known if we are willing to self-disclose but even that's not enough because we need to self-disclose to others who are paying attention and are wanting us what I want to hear us hear our story here our hopes and fears and frustrations and pain and share you know
• 56:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, so that even that phenomenon of belonging is about, um, um, we need to be welcomed in order to belong, but we also then need, even if there is a strong welcoming of us, that isn't enough, we need to then accept the welcome and step into it and kind of go, oh, you really want me, I'll show up then.
• 57:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I go I go back to that I'm not I don't believe I'm saying anything new here I think we all if we give it any thought we all we can all work this out we all know this because we are all
• 57:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: in relationship and we're all struggling and delighting in it and and we're in relationship to ourselves first and foremost so we have an internal relationship we have relationships with others we have experience of being in some kind of holding system as a child that could be a
• 57:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: or there could be lots of changes in that how we are looked after as a child and so it's but we're all in this we are all we're all having to navigate this whether we like it or not consciously or unconsciously there isn't a there isn't a choice unless you disappear and go and live in a cave but even then you're going to have to face
• 58:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there is a bit of me that goes, well, I don't know really what I'm doing.
• 58:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, why?
• 58:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Why?
• 58:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm holding a space.
• 58:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's a cliches, but I'm not really doing the work.
• 58:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't do the work for others.
• 58:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're doing the work.
• 58:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm merely...
• 58:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, well, I kind of joked myself in some respects and I'm just, I'm just creating some space in some people's diaries because they could do this without me, they don't need, they don't need someone to come and do this.
• 58:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: but they will of course say yes we do because if we because we won't do this we will avoid it we will go oh my goodness there's something happened to yesterday wasn't that awful we we've so we can't do the meeting tomorrow we're going to have to just face into some more task or well we'll meet but it will be awkward and you know we might do it once and then we won't do it again
• 59:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So in some respects, part of the value that I'm adding is that it gets putting a diary and there's somebody who we're paying to run this thing and say we better all show up.
• 59:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that and that, I think that's very useful and then if we can build on that and do something interesting, something that captures people's attention and maybe feels a little bit uncomfortable at times.
• 59:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: and invites emotional expression, as you've absolutely just said, you know, won't laugh though as much laughter as tears and as much laughter as rage or frustration, expression of frustration and fear.
• 59:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I would say there are four, four main emotions that teams need to navigate and get good at and they would be those those things joy,
• 1:00:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: joy and grief and fear and anger.
• 1:00:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's look at that.
• 1:00:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who's angry to that?
• 1:00:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who's feeling angry?
• 1:00:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who can speak to anger?
• 1:00:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who can speak to grief?
• 1:00:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who can speak to fear?
• 1:00:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who can speak to joy?
• 1:00:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's have, that's how we build relationship.
• 1:00:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: We talk about those things.
• 1:00:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, let me just say thank you Robert.
• 1:00:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, I really really mean and touched by what you share about what you're up to.
• 1:00:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And thank you for being on the podcast.
• 1:00:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I just want to ask where can people find out about your work?
• 1:00:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure a lot of coaches listening or want to connect with you or yeah, so if they can discover your work more.
• 1:00:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
• 1:00:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's so kind of you.
• 1:00:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I have
• 1:00:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: An ongoing presence on LinkedIn and I'd be delighted to connect with anybody who would like to do that on LinkedIn.
• 1:01:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just obviously search for my name.
• 1:01:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And to find out more about my practice, go to highlyrelational.com.
• 1:01:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's plenty of stuff there to amuse anyone interested in this kind of work.
• 1:01:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.
• 1:01:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for the great pleasure.
• 1:01:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Really enjoyed speaking to you, Joe.
• 1:01:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
• 1:01:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Here we are, we're at the end of the podcast.
• 1:01:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just a heads up again, if you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create, then head to coachesrizing.com, put your name in the sign up box there.
• 1:01:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: You'll also find some of our other offerings, our online trainings for coaches there.
• 1:01:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And just want to end by wishing you well, and I'll see you again next time.