Latest / Sorta Sophisticated / Episode 114 - "Nobody Knows What to Say" - Three Years Later

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Episode 114 - "Nobody Knows What to Say" - Three Years Later · Sorta Sophisticated

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Welcome to Sorta Sophisticated with Pete and Amanda. All right, so three years ago this month, obviously Gabby died.
• 0:09
  Speaker B: Yes, yes.
• 0:10
  Speaker A: So I'm in my feels a little bit here.
• 0:13
  Speaker B: All the feels.
• 0:14
  Speaker A: A lot of feels. Yeah, a lot of feels. And then, you know, we just had my mother in law's funeral and everything's all stacking up and I basically had three years of sort of people trying to figure out what to say to me. You, you have been on that journey with me quite a bit. Yes, we've had some behind the scenes talk. Behind the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and like most people, we talk about it. Most people get it wrong. Not because they're bad or doing anything specific. There's just, there's no manual.
• 0:40
  Speaker B: Well, and there's also like this. I feel like it's taboo, right? Like some people, it is supposed to say something.
• 0:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 0:46
  Speaker B: But we never have deeper conversations. Right. Of. Because it's different per person. Grief is different per person.
• 0:50
  Speaker A: That's exactly right. That is absolutely right. And like think of the big parts of your life. I mean, you got married, you had babies, like, you know, your wife dies when you're 50 years old. Like there should be manuals by this time. By this time I would argue we should have manuals. So I'm thinking maybe we do that. Maybe that's like our next sort of gig.
• 1:08
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 1:09
  Speaker A: We come up with all these manuals.
• 1:10
  Speaker B: Life manuals.
• 1:11
  Speaker A: Like life manuals. But anyway, you know, it just, it dawned on me that Elizabeth Kubler Ross. Do you know this woman? Super famous. She wrote the like the Five Stages of Grief. Okay, right. It's.
• 1:20
  Speaker B: Didn't realize it was her, but yes.
• 1:22
  Speaker A: Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, like DGAF or something. Acceptance. Yes. There's actually seven. They added some. One is. One is shock and then there's one. I just learned testing and I've decided I've been in the testing phase for a very long time. But anyway, like the thing is, is like it's good research and I love when my, my mom died like 30 years ago. I totally read all her books and it's good. But like this is going to sound terrible because she's a genius and I'm an idiot on a podcast. But it's also a bit of a cop out, like. Cause there's no timeline to it. They always say, well, you could go through, you could feel any emotion, anytime, whenever you want and da da, da. And it's not linear, which I totally get. So it's just sort of like, it's like a Table of contents, those, like, five or seven things. It's. It's like.
• 2:01
  Speaker B: Well, they're suggestions, right?
• 2:02
  Speaker A: But it's not like an actual moving through each one. And there's. And I totally get it because I'm on my own journey, and so it's. It's weird. I completely understand it. So, anyway. God, Pete, where are you going with all this? Here's what we're doing today. I'm going to have you interview me. So I'm going to turn this over to you, okay. And you're gonna interview me. I think you've got some questions prepared right there. Anyway, I do, and I am going to try to riff and just answer them as straight as possible about how to help people figure this mess out. But, like, it's only my mess. So, like, on the one hand, it would be like, oh, this is gonna be super helpful for other people. I would argue. The one thing I'll already argue is it's not gonna be helpful for other people necessarily, because everybody's different. Like, you just said so.
• 2:41
  Speaker B: But then maybe it'll help people not feel so alone in their journey.
• 2:46
  Speaker A: The bottom line is I'm just ready to chat after three years. So I just wanted to get on the mic because we're allowed to do that, right? So official title is Nobody Knows what to say Three Years Later. And here are big takeaways if you don't want to listen to the whole podcast and listen to me drone on and on and, you know, cry and do all those happy things. First, you can't possibly know in advance what any grieving person wants, so don't kill yourself trying to figure it out. And then second, since you can't know that, stop trying to fix everything and just pay attention. That's it. Those are the hacks. Show's over. We're done. That simple. Click, move on to next episode. But if you want to stick around, welcome to episode 114, I think. 114. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sort of sophisticated, where culture, curiosity, chaos, and, I guess apparently grief today also collide. I'm Pete, of course, and that is Amanda. And we're going to go.
• 3:35
  Speaker B: Hello, everyone. I am very, and I don't want to say excited, but I am excited to explore this kind of grief journey with you.
• 3:42
  Speaker A: The fact that I'm letting you do this to me. Yeah, I know.
• 3:47
  Speaker B: I think it'll be so good. It's going to be so good.
• 3:48
  Speaker A: I don't know why I signed up for this shit.
• 3:49
  Speaker B: Well, do we still have word of the Week. Mm.
• 3:52
  Speaker A: We totally have word of the week. So word of the week this week is impecunious. Impecunious.
• 3:57
  Speaker B: Impecuito.
• 3:58
  Speaker A: No, that's Spanish. This is English. Impecunious. It means not having any money. Like, broke. Like, lately, I've been impecunious. Yes. It comes from the Latin pecunia, meaning money. And apparently, just slap IM in front of it and you've got money lists.
• 4:13
  Speaker B: IM is negative. Yeah, yeah.
• 4:14
  Speaker A: Yes. I regret to inform you, Amanda, that after my next vacation, I will be entirely impecunious.
• 4:20
  Speaker B: I mean, it's gonna be a baller vacation, that's for sure.
• 4:22
  Speaker A: And then I'm supposed to go on a vacation with you.
• 4:24
  Speaker B: Yeah, but those ones. I'm gonna be cooking for you. It's gonna be fine.
• 4:29
  Speaker A: All right. If you like what you're listening to, hit subscribe. Follow us, please. New episodes come out every week, so you know what to do. Thank you so much. We really appreciate the support of the show. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so before we start, one quick thing, because it'll make all the rest of this make sense. As I was sort of figuring this out, there's actually a little bit of research on this. So grief researchers break up grief into two categories. So forget Elisabeth Kubler Ross for two seconds. We have two rough styles. So we have what they call intuitive grievers, which process things out loud, like crying, talking, feeling, all that real time. Okay? And then we have something called instrumental grievers, who process through action. So doing something with their hands, like staying busy physically. Okay, so most people fall into one of those two categories, or you're a blend of both. You have, like, one strong one and one week that you work on and so on and so forth. But that's sort of the idea. But here's the funny part. When I was reading all about this, those kind of grievers don't necessarily, like, get along. They can't stand each other. Because if you're a talker, then you're like, why is this person not processing the same way I am? So it's interesting. Family of five. I have both in my family. It only recently, since I was looking all this research, I chatted with my kids about this specific topic and sort of figured out who's who in my family, which was quite helpful, to be honest. So I did learn a little bit just about that.
• 5:40
  Speaker B: So anyway, I mean, I know you kind of, like, told people they could sign off, but I think if anyone wants to take anything away like that's a big one.
• 5:47
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. If I would have known that three years ago, just that by itself, I think I would have been able to communicate with my kids better for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. Okay, so then fine, I'm turning this over to you. Full disclosure. This is my story. This is not everybody's story. I don't want to make your journey. Yes. I don't want to make this some generic, like, follow this program. And if I start doing that for any reason, like, you should do this or you should do that, correct me, because that's so lame. And I don't want to be that person. So it's just. It's going to be about me. Okay?
• 6:12
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 6:12
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 6:12
  Speaker B: Just about you.
• 6:13
  Speaker A: Let's go.
• 6:14
  Speaker B: So are you a talker or a doer?
• 6:15
  Speaker A: I don't even know that this already sounds bad. Like, we're just going to make this whole episode about me already. It's bad. Like, this is an ego.
• 6:19
  Speaker B: No, but I think it helps because.
• 6:21
  Speaker A: Okay, fine.
• 6:22
  Speaker B: You know, it leads conversation a certain way, knowing which one you are.
• 6:25
  Speaker A: All right, I'm a talker or a doer. I am unequivocally a talker. Completely. I want to look at me. I'm on a microphone. I'm talking right now. This is literally evidence that we're doing this. I. I have noticed that when I have no one to talk to, when the kids are gone from the house. Because it's weird, right? I have adult children. Right. You know, so sometimes they're, like, all around me and I can't believe it. And then two seconds later, they're all gone. I've noticed when they leave, I go into default doing mode, so I don't have to process. Yes. So I would say 85.6% talker, and then whatever that is. 14.4% doer.
• 7:00
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 7:00
  Speaker A: For sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Which is funny because Luke is a doer. Luke doesn't want to talk about this. And, you know, every once in a while, I'll come at him and ask him questions, but I find that fascinating. That again, now that I can see it makes it easier for me to understand his language. So. Just like the love languages.
• 7:20
  Speaker B: Right.
• 7:20
  Speaker A: So I didn't really realize. I just thought, oh, some kids don't talk about it as much as other kids. Or, oh, I'm processing it whatever way I want to process it. It's very interesting because Ruth, total talker. I'd argue Paul doer. Completely different than Luke. So Luke physically is doing things. Paul is meditating Paul is making music. Paul is hiking. So Paul is not talking. A different type of doing. Yes, absolutely. And Emma. I'd say Emma is also a doer. So I have three doers, and Ruth's my talker, and then I'm a talker. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:54
  Speaker B: I sometimes feel like. I mean, I would assume that I would be a doer in those moments.
• 7:58
  Speaker A: Yeah. Hard to say. I don't know. I mean, but I know your personality, so it does make sense. But, like, I don't know, keep busy
• 8:04
  Speaker B: and, you know, keep your mind off of it. Right? Yeah. But as time has gone by, has that changed for you?
• 8:12
  Speaker A: That's a good question. I talk more now, so. Yeah, you would have to answer. I guess my friends would have to answer that question, as maybe I'm being more vocal about it. But I would say instinctually, all I ever wanted to do was talk about Gabby, about. Maybe I didn't want people to talk back to me, but I wanted to talk, to share. So if anything, I said it got stronger. It didn't get weaker.
• 8:36
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 8:37
  Speaker A: Yeah. So.
• 8:38
  Speaker B: Well, if you haven't really changed, like, from your, you know, the two of talking and doing. Have there been other things that are different from, you know, the first year that you were grieving to now three years later, like, something that you're stuck with and, you know, hasn't moved at all, or do you feel, like, completely different and changed?
• 8:57
  Speaker A: Yeah, no, I. Definitely different. I mean, we've talked about this enough when we're at bars together, usually three deep liquid courage. Right? Friends are changing for sure. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but it's definitely my circles. We talk about my circles. Those are different. Remember at the beginning I teased. I said testing. I didn't even know there was a testing stage. I've literally spent three years testing my friends. Not in a dick way, just. That's what's happened. By default, that's who I am.
• 9:22
  Speaker B: And by testing, I think, to clarify, it's been more of testing to feel who's safe enough.
• 9:27
  Speaker A: Yes. Oh, it's all about. It's all about my heart and safety. Oh, God. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not some.
• 9:34
  Speaker B: Are you good enough to be a friend?
• 9:35
  Speaker A: No, just, like,
• 9:37
  Speaker B: process what I need to process in this moment.
• 9:40
  Speaker A: Bingo. Thank you. Super well said. And so, yeah, so my circle's changed, for sure. People that I was intimate with have moved out a little bit, and people that kind of out of nowhere sort of moved in for. I mean, you moved in further. I mean, I know you were always my friend, but like you moved way inside. And maybe that was proximity because we were together so much. But you also made a conscious choice to be around me always and then sort of help figure me out. So like that would be a good example. That changed. I would also sit. So I'm still angry. Like, you know me, I'm still angry. That stayed the same. I don't think I'm any less angry from day one. I don't know if I ever will be. I just generally I run that way. I mean, you know me, I'm sort of that. That guy who's like more cutting and tough and always looking for the angle and so that like, I'm not mad at Gabby. I'm not mad at, oh my God, her death or anything. Like just the situation. It's just I'm just pissed at the situation. And Gabby was the person that I could talk to about shit. And now my person's gone. So I don't have anybody to let the anger out on. Like those are two and it's two sides of the same coin. So sorry if I'm all over the place. There's just a lot of emotions. So anger and love, I'm trying to redirect both of them. So Gabby got 100% of that, good or bad.
• 10:55
  Speaker B: Right.
• 10:56
  Speaker A: She was my person. So now where do I direct? I have a lot of love. I thought you could laugh if you want to, but like I have a ton of it and I just don't know where it should go anymore. So some goes to my kids, some goes to you, some goes to my friends, some went to my mother in law before she passed. Like it's weird to redirect your love and it's really hard to redirect your anger. So it's like, fuck, it gets. It's ugly and sticky and I don't love it. But I'm trying to figure it all out. Yeah. Yeah.
• 11:21
  Speaker B: Well, that's a part of the process, right? Is to figure it out slowly, one step at a time.
• 11:27
  Speaker A: Yeah, I guess so. Thank you for that Grace. I appreciate it.
• 11:30
  Speaker B: Speaking of grace, I know you've given me a lot of grace as I try to navigate how to be in your grief process with you. One, because it is so different. And two, because I think as a society we don't talk about the process or where people are at. I think we, we operate on a what's expected of us or what we've been taught is the nicety to do. And I think in going that with you, sometimes there are wrong ways to comfort people, but it's not like a hard, fast rule. It's just maybe wrong at that time for that person, where they are in their journey, etc. So do you. Have you felt like people have gotten it mostly wrong?
• 12:13
  Speaker A: So this is hard to say on air, but yes.
• 12:16
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 12:16
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 12:17
  Speaker B: I mean, and that's an honest answer
• 12:19
  Speaker A: because I mean, it sucks. But yes, 98% of the time wrong.
• 12:21
  Speaker B: And what's wrong?
• 12:22
  Speaker A: Right. So again, my. My story. Right. So like super open here. Talking, just talking is wrong because there's nothing like I'm so. I am so difficult. Like it's a me problem. This is not a them problem. This is a me problem. And I'm difficult. And so shit just falls out of people's mouths. People just talk to talk. Like I get the impression that people are processing whatever thing they want to process in their own brain to think about how to help me or to think about what word is like, that's all not what I want. I don't care for. I'm not looking for words from anybody to help me today. If I'm just going to share my story, just sharing my story is help. That's the help. There's nothing specific you need to say like, oh, Pete, that's so good, or oh, I don't need affirmation. I certainly don't need you to redirect and tell me, oh, but this. Or oh, it was supposed to be that way, or look for this. Fuck you don't think I thought about all those things already? Like, fuck you. Like, I get it. People are just trying to be excellent. And so all of those things just sort of go right in one ear and out the other. Because all I'm really looking for is just to redirect my love to be in an intimate relationship. And I'm in a intimate non sexual relationship with you. That's what it is at its core. And that's what I'm looking for. Right. And that's hard to find and people don't understand that.
• 13:48
  Speaker B: Yep. And I think the hardest part is when you had Gabby. She was your person. You can go to that. You could be the most vulnerable with knowing she's not going to judge you. She's stuck with you ever. She loves you hard. Stop.
• 14:01
  Speaker A: It's the beauty of marriage.
• 14:02
  Speaker B: You can say the ugliest thought or ugliest thing and they'll be like, all right, so. Right. But it doesn't change the perspective of you. And so I think with friends and I don't. I don't know. And this is a little. My projection. And we talked about this a little bit, I think, last week when I struggled with it. Right. I was like, well, I don't know what to say to you, and I need to say something, and I should do that. And it became.
• 14:24
  Speaker A: Oh, when the anniversary passed.
• 14:25
  Speaker B: Yeah. You know, and in that moment, I was like, it's about me. And then I stopped, and I was like, man, if I was getting all of this. You talked about love and anger.
• 14:34
  Speaker A: Right.
• 14:34
  Speaker B: And, yeah, and it's like people are being loving, but it triggers my anger because I was like, I don't want to have to respond to somebody on this day. I'm already dealing with enough, but then I want to love on them. So I'm going, you know, and so it's just like a juxtaposition, I guess. Right.
• 14:47
  Speaker A: Of again, sort of off air. We've already had so many of these conversations. You have 364 other days that you can love on me.
• 14:55
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 14:55
  Speaker A: I could give two shits if you loved on me on July 11th or not. I don't care. Doesn't matter. Because you've shown me 364 other days. And I think that's the. That's what I'm trying to get at. It's just, be you, be authentically Amanda around me, and that makes me feel normal, and that's all I'm looking for. So, you know, cut the talk. Like, if that. That's the one. I mean, that's the answer to the question.
• 15:21
  Speaker B: Well, I think the first point that you've made is that as a talker, you just want to talk.
• 15:26
  Speaker A: I'm the talker.
• 15:27
  Speaker B: So I should just make space for you to verbally process and vomit and sit in it.
• 15:33
  Speaker A: Super egocentric, doesn't it? It's, like, really weird, but I think it's really weird.
• 15:36
  Speaker B: But it's part of processing, I think. Right. Saying it out loud makes it reality. Right. But I think that also kind of leads the way into, like, you've changed. And I don't know, has that been hard? Because you and Gabby were you and Gabby, and now you're just Pete. But I don't think you're the same Pete today that you were with Gabby. I mean, obviously, like, this. Something like this is monumental and changes you as a person completely. And so I guess first question would be like, yes, do you feel like you are the same Pete? And then two, does that Also then affect as a friend, do they need to come around to view you differently? Because, yeah, you're different.
• 16:20
  Speaker A: That's tough. First of all, I completely agree with you. I'm totally a different Pete. If you would have asked me that, go back to that other question, like, one year versus three years, two years ago, I would never understood that at all. Like, my brain would have been like, what the you talking about? So here I am three years later, and I understand that. I'm sure, 10 years later, right. I think of my friend Ann, who lost her husband. She's probably totally is a different person and knows it and understands who she is. So I'm like, you know, probably nowhere near where she's at. She's on, like, you know, level 10. I'm over here still learning, but there's very few people. Again, this is a me problem. This is not a them problem. But very few people can process this new version of Pete, who's just decided to be born when he turned 50 years old. They want Pete and Gabby. That's how they knew me. My brothers and sisters have known me for my entire life. My best friends have known me for 30 years. My intimate friends have known me for 15 years. And. And now all of a sudden, I'm different. Like, you're not. You're Amanda and Trent. And I understand that there's parts of you that grow and as we evolve, different things, but I had, like, a cataclysmic shift that changed. I mean, we talked about this. Like, part of me is dead. Part of me had to die. I was so connected to Gabby. I am dead. And then part of Gabby is still in me. And those pieces now have changed me and not. I mean, I understand Gabby was excellent, but I'm not saying they've made me excellent. They've just changed me. Right. Maybe I'm more cynical. Maybe a little bit of Gabby sucked in here. Now I'm a different. Maybe I'm not as awesome. So I'm not saying because half of Gabby's in me, it made me a better person, but I'm completely different than I was before. That's the reason why I'm looking to change friends. And when I meet new people, it is so fun, refreshing, because they have no sense of who I was before. And that is so liberating for me. And I. I'm gonna talk to you. I just want so many new relationships, just like. And I'm not trying to get rid of my old friends. I'm not. There's room. There's space. I know that it's a me problem, but, like, it's just.
• 18:22
  Speaker B: It's just a different way that your cup's getting filled.
• 18:23
  Speaker A: Right. Again, I just. How am I supposed to expect them to be like, oh, Pete's different all of a sudden? Like, that's not fair for me to expect that. So it's all about how much energy I want to put in. So back to the testing, which you explained so well and I didn't explain well, but how much energy do I want to put in to helping reframe this relationship so they can better understand me? Because the more they can better understand me, the better chances we have at moving forward together? And with some folks, I put in a lot of energy into that, and it sucks the life out of me a little bit. And with some folks, I just. I don't anymore.
• 18:54
  Speaker B: And I just think of how layered that pressure is. Not, maybe not pressure, but, like, the weight of it. Right. Because you're still going through your grief process. Add another layer of that you've changed, and now trying to figure out ways to get people to see how you've changed because you are needing your cup filled in different ways than you did when it was you and Gabby.
• 19:18
  Speaker A: Totally. Well, look, think about it this way. You put a ton of energy into your relationship with Trent. A ton. Whatever. 76.5%. I mean, I know you put more, but my. My point is I have some room, and I hope I have. I Hope I have 16%, and then your other best friend has, like, 14%, and then just I'm ranking myself. Your best friends, but you know what I mean? Like, but at some point, you have 1% left for people. Yeah, I have so much more room now, like, to figure out.
• 19:46
  Speaker B: And you have adult kids.
• 19:47
  Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:48
  Speaker B: And so it's also a different season of life.
• 19:51
  Speaker A: Yes. I love the way you say yes. There are different seasons. I'm in. I'm in whatever season I'm in. Here we are. Cheers to. Cheers to this new season.
• 19:58
  Speaker B: Well, speaking of seasons, I mean, I know faith has always been a big part of your life. It was a big part of you and Gabby, your kids. How has that changed, if at all, or fit in or shaped you? Because I do believe even though we go through different seasons of life, our faith ebbs and flows as well. Sometimes as much as we wouldn't want to. But the reality is it probably does. Has it helped? Have you fallen back on it?
• 20:26
  Speaker A: It's helped tremendously. This is one of those ones I'LL caveat the answer right now because when we're talking about grief and everybody's journey's different. I'm super into my faith, and I get. Faith is not for everybody. I get. People lose spouses all the times they're not faith filled. That's their journey. I totally understand it and I totally respect it. I'm fine with it. But I see no zero other path without faith. I just. I don't understand how you can cope without it at all. Because the only way I still feel connected to Gabby is through faith. So I don't believe in God because it comforts me. I believe in God because the alternative is that I loved her that much for nothing. That's not okay. So I just. I can't live in a world where there is no faith.
• 21:17
  Speaker B: It's about the hope that keeps you going.
• 21:19
  Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. I pray. I pray every night. I read the Bible every night. This is not like divine intervention. I'm praying, oh, God, you know, bring Gabby back. Oh, God, help me. Like, I pray because the only place I could talk to my wife, that's. It sucks. Yeah.
• 21:34
  Speaker B: So that's what keeps the connection.
• 21:36
  Speaker A: Faith very important. Very, very important to me. Yes.
• 21:38
  Speaker B: So then if there's somebody who's listening that has a person in their life who's currently grieving, what is it that they could do differently for that person? Again, it's not the same for everyone.
• 21:47
  Speaker A: I don't know. Right. But something to consider, maybe everybody's doing everything right. Like, you've probably done 98% of things right. So I would. I don't know what to tell you. I'd be like, amanda, keep doing what you're doing. Just be authentic. Right. Like, so everybody wants something different. So hard one for me to answer, but I would say it goes back to the circles of friends. If you're comfortable enough, just ask. Just ask. Say. Like, it's probably the best conversation I could have with any friend who's trying to be intimate with me. I would love for them to look at me and say, what is it that you're looking for? How can I show up for you? Like, those are the questions where it's like, it's not like I got some great answer, but if I just hear that, it's okay. You're being considerate, you know nothing. Keep showing up the way you are. Like, just, just listen. If you can't ask them the question to get the answers that you're looking for, then don't go into fix it mode. It's just so hard for me. This one's tough. I don't feel broken, but, like, everybody else feels like I'm broken. That's. That's the vibe I get. The world thinks Peter's broken. I'm not broken.
• 22:54
  Speaker B: Well, and I can understand that feeling, especially if people are like, how are you doing today? How is this? You know? And I'm fine.
• 23:01
  Speaker A: We're all right. So. So my point is, I've had so many of these conversations with friends. We're all broken. Oh, my God. I got on you the other night. I was railing on you and Trent. I'm like, I don't know your relationship. I don't know the intimate details of your relationship. You might not be happy with something. It doesn't seem that way. I get it. But, like, I don't. And I'm not asking for you to tell me, but, you know, you are looking at me like, this guy has a broken wing, and I can only look at you and assume you don't. And so, for me, again, my own issue, there's this weird imbalance. And so as a result, people come at me like they're trying to fix. Just stop it. Just stop it. There's nothing broken. There's nothing wrong. Just be authentic. I think that's. That's the one thing I would tell people that I think is sort of universal, that somebody could take away. Just be whoever you normally are gonna be for that person and just show up. And. And my guess is they're going to kind of still want to be around you and sort of include you in their circle. I don't know.
• 24:00
  Speaker B: I mean, it's kind of as if someone was, like, impecuous.
• 24:05
  Speaker A: That would have been so good if you got it. Impecunious.
• 24:07
  Speaker B: Oh, there you go.
• 24:07
  Speaker A: Impecunious.
• 24:08
  Speaker B: Like, if someone's impecunious, you're not going to go up and point out to them, oh, you broke af okay. Right.
• 24:14
  Speaker A: I don't know. I don't know how you just did that, but I'll give you credit for it. That was really good.
• 24:18
  Speaker B: All right, tried.
• 24:20
  Speaker A: Not bad. Not bad. Look, here's the deal. Like, again, my issue. I have the ultimate judgy antenna. First of all, I have.
• 24:26
  Speaker B: You're sensitive to it.
• 24:27
  Speaker A: Yes. And I would argue a lot of grieving people have an antenna. I already had a judgy antenna. I mean, I grew up judgy. I'm like, judgy asshole. We know this. So I'm sensing, like, a madman what's going on around Me to my own detriment. Like, I'm recognizing I have a self awareness problem. But my point is, the only way to get to me is through 100% authenticity or all the time, no matter what, because I'm sniffing it out. And even if I'm wrong, you're not getting the benefit of the doubt because I'm the asshole. So it sucks.
• 24:58
  Speaker B: Well, it's not that you're an asshole.
• 25:00
  Speaker A: I'm an asshole.
• 25:01
  Speaker B: I mean, fair.
• 25:02
  Speaker A: But I'm an impecunious asshole. That's what I am.
• 25:05
  Speaker B: But I feel like, again, grief is unique to every person.
• 25:10
  Speaker A: Totally.
• 25:10
  Speaker B: And so unless you're going, like, if you want to be in it with somebody who's going through grief, I think you have to be willing to lay everything that you think that you should be, or what is right or what society has taught us, and be in it with somebody at the level that they need you to be in it at.
• 25:29
  Speaker A: Amanda, you do this for me. You show up every week to this little rinky dink podcast studio for two and a half years.
• 25:39
  Speaker B: I mean, I have a good time. I think it's good.
• 25:42
  Speaker A: And I understand you're not doing me any favors, but that's being in it with me. That's the thing people don't get. They think they can just, oh, I'm gonna see Peter Friday night. I'm gonna ask him a bunch of questions. Fuck you. Fuck you.
• 25:56
  Speaker B: I just wanna go to get a drink.
• 25:57
  Speaker A: Right? Like, this is being in it. You're authentic. And there's times that we've fought and there's times that we've, like, I've completely disagreed with you. We've gotten into massive. Especially about this dating thing. Like, we're just not on the same page yet. Which is totally fine.
• 26:09
  Speaker B: Oh, no, Last week I told you.
• 26:11
  Speaker A: No, I know.
• 26:11
  Speaker B: I'm on the same page. My point is, I've joined you.
• 26:13
  Speaker A: I'm giving you credit. My point is, I know you're just gonna show up next week. That is so meaningful. So, like, I'm not trying to love on you. I'm trying to explain. You're a great example of just being Amanda and accepting whatever Pete is throwing at you. So good on you.
• 26:30
  Speaker B: Well, thanks.
• 26:30
  Speaker A: Yes. I mean, cheers.
• 26:31
  Speaker B: I think I would do it either as a friend, I think really at the core of it. And it does get complicated and convoluted. Cause I know people see you and they're, how are you doing? Or how are the kids? And how. How are they doing with the grief? Like they want to talk about it
• 26:43
  Speaker A: and I may be on top of the world and I don't want to talk about it right then at all.
• 26:46
  Speaker B: Right. And that's. But I think that's also where we as non grievers in the moment, maybe mess up because we think that's at the forefront of your mind all the time. Same. Rather than like I'm hanging out with another friend of mine, had, you know, their mom in the hospital or something. Yes, absolutely. I would ask how their mom is doing. I would check in with them.
• 27:08
  Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 27:09
  Speaker B: But I don't know what it is about a person who's grieving. It would be different if they lost their mom because I can't ask how they're doing. And that's not like I think a flowing conversation. Right. Because then they give you updates and it just kind of naturally the conversation takes its course where when you are grieving, you've already asked, how are you doing? Well, still shitty. Thanks. Like, you know, and then it kind of just stops to a point. And so I think when you have that relationship with somebody, I don't know if you have to be like, hey, how are you doing versus man? You know, it's been really shitty few days or I've been really overwhelmed. Like, I think it flows differently because you feel again, safe enough to have that free flowing conversation.
• 27:55
  Speaker A: But it's also, it doesn't have to be a question. It doesn't have to be, how are you doing? It could be, it could be. Man, I miss Gabby. I remember like last year, da, da, da, da da. Or I had a dream about her the other night and da, da, da, da da. You're sort of doing that. You're just talking about Gabby. You're not, you're not asking me something. You're not requiring something from me. You're just telling me a story. Yeah, right, right.
• 28:14
  Speaker B: And so maybe that's a big takeaway too, I think is to not be fearful, to be on the sharing end a little bit of that person.
• 28:21
  Speaker A: Right.
• 28:22
  Speaker B: Rather than sharing advice on how you should be doing better. But just like sharing, you know, I remember that one time, oh, we went to the sushi place.
• 28:28
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 28:29
  Speaker B: And I just started crying by myself. I was with other people and you know, someone text you and just be like, I miss Gabby.
• 28:36
  Speaker A: But that's a cool. But that's great. That, that's my point. It's like I feel like there's no requirement from me then versus the, the question of how are you doing? How are you doing? Do you think I'm going to answer it?
• 28:47
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 28:48
  Speaker A: Answer the same way every time. How the fuck do you think I'm doing?
• 28:50
  Speaker B: But that's. I think my point in all of it is that it's not so much figuring out how you're doing versus just living it.
• 28:57
  Speaker A: Just living it. Just live it with me. Bingo. Yeah. Yeah.
• 28:59
  Speaker B: All right, so then what would you tell yourself three years ago on the worst day when Gabby passed, Like from today's perspective and where you are.
• 29:06
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 29:07
  Speaker B: What would you tell that, Pete?
• 29:08
  Speaker A: Okay, first of all, do you know that the worst day wasn't when Gabby passed? Oh, I'm in a full disclosure. Was it because I already knew she was dying?
• 29:16
  Speaker B: That's true. You had time to process, right?
• 29:18
  Speaker A: Well, right, Whatever. I had time to do whatever. I knew it was happening. I've had. I've had a few worse days that completely blindsided me that I would argue were worse than the day she died and worse than her funeral. Because again, you're preparing for a funeral. The day my son graduated from Loyola Marymount University because that's where Gabby and I started dating. Watching him walk across stage and looking up at the bell tower and I could see my old dorm room and it's where Gabby and I used to do, you know, fun things together while my son was graduating was. Was unbelievable. That was probably the worst. Watching Ruth graduate from modern day high school, where Gabby and I met when we were 14 years old and walk across the stage at UCI Bren center. And I went home and I looked at pictures of Gabby and I hugging right outside of the Bren center with our graduation gowns on when we were 17 years old. Like, those moments, they're so surreal for me that I live in the same community and my kids are going through the same thing. So it's not only like, Gabby's not there witnessing these beautiful events, but it's. Gabby and I were doing the same events. Right. Paul's graduation was a skosh easier because we weren't affiliated with San Diego State. I stepped foot on Chapman campus where she worked for 15 years, 20 years, and I see her old colleagues, I go to her old office. There's certain triggers for me that are just. That are unbelievable. But. But anyway, those days, it's not like the day she died, which is super weird.
• 30:45
  Speaker B: So, like. No, the more. The more unexpected moments, probably.
• 30:50
  Speaker A: Oh, totally.
• 30:51
  Speaker B: Or the more unexpected feelings.
• 30:53
  Speaker A: It's so weird because my friends, like, I have a few friends, like Ann and Chrissy Luffy, both dear friends, of mine. Both lost their husbands 11 years ago. 1 7. Seven years ago. Yeah. They warned me. They're like, hey, you're gonna have these moments. I'm like, oh, okay. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, I got it. Yeah. No, didn't matter because my moments weren't their moments. They're all just different. Right. And then you just go through. Anyway, here's what I wouldn't tell myself. I wouldn't tell myself. Back to your question. That this gets any easier. Because it's not easier if there's something Elizabeth Kubler Ross is right on. There is no fucking timeline. It's different, but it ain't easier at all. That's total bullshit. I would never use the word time heals. Time is easy. Again, that to me is. That's a cop out. Sure. I'm healing around it. Like, I'm not. I'm not. It's not getting better. It's just getting different. And that's. That's sort of the weird thing.
• 31:43
  Speaker B: Did you think it's kind of like. Kind of like a scar, a little bit.
• 31:47
  Speaker A: Oh, it's like a massive scar.
• 31:48
  Speaker B: And then, I mean, like, as you're healing, like you had something ripped out of you, Right? I mean, just medically, right?
• 31:53
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 31:54
  Speaker B: And then you get stitched up, and then it slowly heals. But you will always have the reminder of the pain, the loss, the fill in the blank. And you have the physical reminder of.
• 32:06
  Speaker A: Yeah, I don't. I'm careful with that because I don't love the idea that. The idea for me, of heels, I'm sensitive to because it means you're better. And I'm not okay with that. I'm different. I don't want. I don't. I don't want to be better. Better could mean that somehow I'm doing this without her.
• 32:32
  Speaker B: Or that you're able to do it without her.
• 32:34
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm not okay with that. And so. And maybe that's a three year thing. And so maybe in six years we'll do another one. I don't know. But the one thing I would. I have to give myself grace for, that we talked about already. And I think that I would have told myself was like, pete, you died when Gabby died, or a significant part of you died when Gabby died.
• 32:54
  Speaker B: That version of you.
• 32:55
  Speaker A: Yes. Let it go. Like, let it the fuck go. Don't hang onto it. It's totally fine. That version is sacred. It's buried right next to Gabby. Don't fight it. The sooner you let that go and sooner you just sort of not say, fuck it, but. But, like, recognize your. What is it? Metamorphosizing. I don't really know the word. But, like, beautiful, but Right? Sure. Right. Caterpillar to butterfly, whatever it is, that is literally the only door to walk through. So start walking. That's it. So to me, like, I think that's sort of the aha moment that I think I missed and I'm now more accepting of. And I wish others around me would be more accepting of that.
• 33:50
  Speaker B: I mean, going off of that. I know we say that when someone passes, like, things are different. I mean, immediately they're different. Someone's gone, someone's missing. Right. But I think what a lot of us miss is that it's not just different because that person's not here. Like, we are all different, but it's also okay. It's okay to be different. Like, we have to live in the different cause that is now our reality.
• 34:18
  Speaker A: Right.
• 34:19
  Speaker B: And so that different, I think once we get to the point of accepting that things are different. And you're right, I don't think you ever fully heal 100%. Because, again, this was a core thing, you know, that shook you.
• 34:35
  Speaker A: You're a husband and wife. I mean, you know, you're woven into the fabric. She was my waypoint, and I was hers.
• 34:43
  Speaker B: Like,
• 34:46
  Speaker A: it doesn't work. I still can't articulate. Look, we had an incredibly strong marriage. I'm so thankful, so blessed, but I can't even begin to unhook all of that. And that's the problem.
• 35:00
  Speaker B: Well, when you talk about being woven together, I mean, just over time, you're so intertwined again, it goes back to that different because now you're ripped apart and this is what's left. And it's so different than what it was. Not only for the person who's grieving, to be able to accept that it is different. And it's gonna be different for every person. You're different is your story and your journey and your circumstance that you're in. But I think from the outside, you know, as a friend, it's being able to accept the new different instead of expecting. Because I think that's also an additional burden for the person who's grieving to meet these expectations of friends. Right? Especially friends that are friends with both of you, and they're still a couple. I know, like, trying to try to be very cognizant of this, but, you know, it does well also try to
• 35:49
  Speaker A: do that when, like, the better part of you is gone too. Everybody like Gabby. People put up with me like they loved her. I was like, oh, okay, yeah, we'll. We'll deal with Pete. You know what I mean? It's not like I was the lead and she followed. I was.
• 36:02
  Speaker B: I will vote. We were more Team Pete than we were team Gabby.
• 36:05
  Speaker A: No, you say careful. Thank you. Thank you so much. I get it. All right? I got to be done with this because I'm losing my mind here, and I think I'm like, did I hold it together good enough?
• 36:16
  Speaker B: You did. You did really good.
• 36:17
  Speaker A: We got to do fun facts.
• 36:17
  Speaker B: Okay?
• 36:18
  Speaker A: Do you have fun facts? Do you know I have grief fun facts?
• 36:21
  Speaker B: It's because you're a doer. In that moment, you had to figure out something else.
• 36:25
  Speaker A: I had to be. I was home alone. I didn't know what to do.
• 36:27
  Speaker B: The.
• 36:27
  Speaker A: With myself.
• 36:27
  Speaker B: Hit me with it.
• 36:28
  Speaker A: All right, here we go. Fun fact number one. Grief researchers will tell you flat out that grief is not a mental illness, and most people don't need treatment for it. Most people are resilient enough, and they go through a rough stretch, usually for months at a time, but come out the other side, functioning at least in some capacity. The version of grief you see in movies, like the Total Meltdown. All that. That's just Hollywood spinning. It's not really how it works all the time. Doesn't mean it doesn't gut you, like we were saying. It just means you're not broken, and eventually you'll be able to sort of function again. So don't be looking at grief as mental illness. I'm not saying that's what we were doing, but, like, there's some people that actually probably think that that's a thing. So I just wanted to make sure that was clear. That was my first fun fact. Okay, number two, there's a researcher, Mary Frances o'. Connor. Mary Frances o'. Connor. She's a wonderful Irish lady. She studies grief with actual brain scans. Turns out yearning for someone you've lost lights up the same reward circuitry as craving something you're addicted to, which makes perfect sense in my case, with my addictive personality, grief isn't just sadness, it's withdrawal. So I'm addicted to Gabby? When? You're gonna face it, you're addicted to Gabby. Okay, number three, grief doesn't require a death. We talked about this in one of our episodes. The quiet grief of becoming someone else. Yeah, yeah. Where you were giving me a hard time. Yes. We grieve the loss of what we could have become. Researchers call it disenfranchised grief, grieving, a divorce, a job, a friendship, a version of your own life that didn't happen. Nobody sends flowers, Amanda. That one. But it's real and it still counts. That's what I was trying to explain. Go back and relisten. I think I won you over by the end of that episode.
• 38:00
  Speaker B: That was tough one you did.
• 38:01
  Speaker A: Yeah. And finally, the one that matters most for today. Some researchers put it like this. Grief is like a fingerprint. No two are the same, even for the same kind of loss. Which means every single tip, script and stage chart that you've ever read about how to grieve is statistically wrong for someone. That was my point at the beginning. This is only my journey. And you could do this with a hundred other people and you'll get 100 different stories. That's all I got. Go figure fun facts out. I mean, I don't know if those are fun facts. Those were.
• 38:29
  Speaker B: I was gonna say I don't know if they were fun facts, but you know what? They were. They were good food for thought.
• 38:33
  Speaker A: Okay, there you go.
• 38:34
  Speaker B: Finish you on.
• 38:34
  Speaker A: They were food for thoughts.
• 38:36
  Speaker B: Well, and a lot of it is we all experience at some level, if we admit it or not admit it, but. So if anybody wants to learn more about grief, is there anything they actually do? Things you suggest for them to read.
• 38:48
  Speaker A: Read. It's all about reading. That's all we're going to do with grief, I think. I don't know that you want these fun facts. If you want this episode summary DM us, we'll deliver it to your inbox. I don't know there's much here, but if so, we'll do it. Read Megan Devine's book. It's okay that you're not okay. She's a grief therapist who lost her own partner suddenly, and her whole thesis is basically what I just spent 40 minutes telling you. Grief doesn't need fixing. It's just about witnessing. And then go practice one of the skills in her book because she's a genius and I'm not. So just sort of. Yeah. Kind of just shut up and sit down and let somebody talk without trying to steer them in any direction. I think that's sort of like the best thing that you could take away. Or of course, read Elizabeth Kubler Ross's. Any of her books at all because she was totally amazing. And. Yeah, just be prepared to know that one size doesn't fit all. I think that's all.
• 39:36
  Speaker B: All right. And if you don't want to read either of those things, then just remember these details to seem so sorta sophisticated. First, the five stages of grief aren't actually a grief model. Elizabeth Kubler Ross built them in 1969 for dying patients making peace with their own death, not for the people left behind. Somewhere along the way, it got repurposed as a universal grief checklist, and it's been misleading people ever since.
• 40:00
  Speaker A: There you go.
• 40:01
  Speaker B: That was one of them.
• 40:01
  Speaker A: That was good.
• 40:02
  Speaker B: One of them. Second, researchers identified two main grieving styles. Intuitive grievers, who process out loud through emotion.
• 40:09
  Speaker A: Thank you very much.
• 40:10
  Speaker B: And instrumental grievers who process through action and tasks.
• 40:13
  Speaker A: Weirdos.
• 40:13
  Speaker B: So that will be me. But most people are kind of a blend of both, and neither one is doing it wrong.
• 40:19
  Speaker A: That's true.
• 40:20
  Speaker B: Just show up for them how they needed you to show up.
• 40:22
  Speaker A: You got it.
• 40:22
  Speaker B: Third, grief isn't classified as a mental illness, and most people don't need treatment for it. The total collapse version you see in movies is actually the exception. Most people are more resilient than the culture gives them credit for.
• 40:33
  Speaker A: Yes. Yes, we are.
• 40:35
  Speaker B: You're not broken.
• 40:36
  Speaker A: Correct.
• 40:36
  Speaker B: Not broken. And finally, you'll never know in advance what a grieving person needs, because grief is different for everyone, down to the person. The only move that actually works across the board is attention. Don't fix it. Don't perform. Just show up and pay attention.
• 40:50
  Speaker A: Oh, that's by far the best. Just show up and pay attention. I love that. There you have it. Dear listeners, we came in today thinking grief was something you get through something with a finish line and a checklist to get there. That drives me nuts and makes my skin crawl. We're leaving knowing it's not a race and it's not a formula. It's a fingerprint. I liked the fingerprint. That was a good one.
• 41:09
  Speaker B: That was a good one. Yeah, yeah.
• 41:10
  Speaker A: No two people do it the same way. Not even grieving the exact same person. I can attest to that in my own family. If we did our job today, you're walking away with a little less pressure to know the right thing to say. Not so much, oh, here's a script to follow, but more like notice more, ask more, shut up more, let the person grieving lead and be authentic. As always. Hit subscribe, Leave us a review and share with a friend who's been walking on eggshells around someone who's grieving because they're terrified to say the wrong thing. Amanda, tell them there's no wrong thing as long as they're actually paying attention. Instead of performing. Until next time. Stay curious, stay attentive to the Griever. And remember, the people who actually help you through grief aren't the ones with the right words. They're the ones who showed up and shut up long enough to listen.