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S1E11: How a Christian CEO Handles Conflict · Biblical Business Podcast

• BBP S1E11: If Jesus walked into this business today, would he be looking around figuring out who to fire? The greatest leaders I've been around don't want to be misunderstood, but they are willing to be misunderstood. And so if you turn people into transactions, then that's the kind of business you're you'll run, right? He is perfect and we are not. That is what actual humility is, is having a right view of yourself. Do we approach conflict as CEOs in a biblical business? Man, it it's a it's a difficult thing. I think conflict is hard for everybody, you know? I I don't know anybody who truly enjoys conflict outside of people who maybe enjoy conflict that they win. But conflict in general is difficult, but it's necessary. And it's required when you speak the truth. I think that the best model that I've tried to implement is from the book of Matthew and it is the model that Jesus gave for really when your brother sins against you. And and it's to first bring it to them directly, you and him alone. so right it in the workplace you've got something going on rather than triaging or going around a corner and having it make their way to them. You just have the conversation with them directly. And then if that doesn't work, then you bring a group. And then if that doesn't work, then you bring the church. And in the business form, that would be like the governing body, you right, your the highest level of your business. I'm obviously not talking about things that are illegal or unsafe, right? That you might not bring directly to that person per se. But the majority of conflict happens because people avoid conflict. and choose gossip or choose going around trying to find their way to getting the message to a person. I I think you see it a lot in business where you know, have ever been in a meeting? I've definitely been in them where somebody comes out to tell everyone something, but everyone knows that it's that one person that they're talking to. Like, hey guys, we need to make sure we're all showing up at least, you know, on time or a minute before, and you've got to use, you know, this when you And it's like we all know you're talking about Joe. Yeah. And Joe knows you're talking about Joe, but because you're unwilling to just have a conversation with Joe, the whole group has to pay for your, you know, avoidance of conflict. So I think those are a lot of the situations that come up where we can apply it in a a micro sense and use that model to deal with conflict within the business. Okay. So I I want you to separate something for me, because I don't know if this is true for a biblical business, but I see a CEO as typically a force to be reckoned with. And they're not afraid of conflict. Maybe they're not searching for it, but you know, if you if they're going into battle, they're gonna win. That's very much the mentality they have. I don't know if that's true in a biblical business. Or if that looks different, but I kind of wanted to get your take because I do feel like how we should be thinking about conflict in a biblical lens is different than how maybe a corporate structure would look like. Yeah, I think the model that we want to constantly look to is one, the biblical model, but two is look at the picture of Jesus and you know, I believe he's the perfect picture of service and submission within a leadership position. And even when maybe he dealt with certain conflict, it wasn't a one size fits all approach. If anything, Jesus gave a great case for what we would call in the modern era situational leadership. Right? You're applying a different style to different situations because different situations require a different approach. Sometimes a softer hand. Sometimes you need to flip a table and other times you need to ask a question. I think that The model is one that needs to constantly be rooted in love and a picture of stewardship. So we need to look at people as people first. This is a person. And we are calling them out of something while desiring there to be a relationship. Our goal is a relationship. It's not just to call them out. So I agree with you though. There's lots of CEOs who are they they love to show that they're tough and that they're gonna be in a room and man they're a killer. And I think that there's a better way. I think there's a way to get amazing things done and to speak the truth and to have strong opinions and also understand that God has put you in that position to steward what is his. And so You want to hear well done, good and faithful servant. Well, how are you approaching the conversation with that person in front of you? Yeah. Are you calling people out publicly? Are you berating people? None of these things are a model of what a biblical servant leadership would look like. So I think people in leadership many times have loud personalities. But there's so many leaders and so many use cases of Christian CEOs who are the opposite and they are just as, if not more, effective. Mm. Hmm. I think of the idea of like it's better to be a warrior in the garden than a gardener in the war. And I feel like that same framework applies to where particularly for you, you came up in the corporate environment and You switched over and now you're trying to view things of how do I run this in a very biblical lens. And so you're much more in a garden scenario now, but you st have the skill sets that a warrior would in a corporate environment in the business world to c use the analogy of business being war. And does that resonate? I think it does. I mean, that is the reality of going through hard things. I think. hard things and being humbled and going through tough conflict and not being the best version of yourself doesn't always teach people anything. Sometimes it teaches them bad habits. But there is a lot of truth, I think, to what you're saying in that when you've gone through really tough stuff, you don't feel it necessary to make that known by force. And, you know, I think I think of it like being a parent. You know, maybe when your kids are young, you have to apply a different kind of discipline. and when they get older, you don't. And so I'm the kind of parent definitely who like I will walk over and just go, Hey, don't do that. And they know I'm serious. Mm-hmm. And I think That's like that comes from, to your point, the knowledge that somebody feels like, they're gonna actually follow through on what they're saying here. And this isn't that they are going to see this one all the way through. And to your point earlier, they won't not share the truth or not f face the conflict to make things seem okay. And they are willing, I think the greatest leaders I've been around. don't want to be misunderstood, but they are willing to be misunderstood. So can you give an example? An example is that I might tell somebody something and give them a piece of advice and not share everything behind it, not because I'm not wanting to, but because that moment didn't allow for it or it wasn't there. And so I said, Hey, we're gonna take this approach and I want us to go this way. Now I could spend another ten minutes telling them all the reasons behind, but maybe we're just not in a scenario that makes sense. I'm willing in that sense To be un misunderstood for the s sake of sharing the truth, I know that I'm potentially going to be misunderstood, but I really don't want to be. So I might find another way to communicate that. But I'm not going to go, hmm, I'm just not gonna say that. I'm not gonna express that truth here because they might not understand what I'm saying. and I think that's it's it's much easier said than done to enter into conflict. And do it in a way where people know and see that you actually care about them and care about the relationship. You know, I think about I mean w we just had our you know, our leadership meeting, right? And, you know, there were times where you're like having these conversations about stuff and it's kinda kinda rough, right? Yeah. My desire is, okay, hey, I'm hearing this said and sometimes I'll even say the thing for the other person. And say is that is that hey, y you're saying this. I'm hearing you say this and maybe I'll put it really plainly. Now I'm potentially being seen as the bad guy, but I'm also trying to bring through truth so that it's clearly understood by everybody. And I think the beginning of real resolution is facing the actual truth. It's what that it's what's unsaid. that stores up issues in the future. Yeah. Yeah. Wha how do you think about how do you think about the idea of when to flip tables versus when to ask questions? I I believe there's never a time for me to flip tables. I I believe that Jesus had righteous anger because he's righteous. I don't believe that there are a lot of scenarios where I would not have some sort of selfish ambition. I'm not saying that it's not possible. There's lots of people that do it. There are times where something is detestable and evil and we are called to face those things. But vengeance is is the Lord's. It's not ours. Justice will be delivered by the Lord. and sometimes he uses us to be a disruptor in those scenarios. But I think in business, in practicum, in business, there's just not a lot of scenarios where you're gonna walk into a conference room, a meeting about your product development and start chucking tables. Right? That had to do with a very deeply spiritual perversion of the church and of money changers, right? It it wasn't a product direction. Yeah. So I think if I'm in a business and people are perverting the gospel or let's say at Sherman, we're saying we we want to give money to advance the gospel, but we're actually not. Absolutely, I think that's a time to flip tables. And and and we can still flip those tables, metaphorically speaking, yeah. and and share the truth in love. But I personally because of you know, the rag the filthy rags that I bring to the table, I genuinely feel like if I'm flipping a table, there's gotta be something in there, probably, that has to do with I'm gonna be thinking about how this makes me look, or do people think that I'm that stuff's gonna creep in and I've found that when I am really like seeing something like that, my my heart is broken. And when your heart is broken, you're usually It's hard to have that anger. It's more devastation. And and then yes, you take action and you want to call people out of it, but I I am still it's like snatching people out of that fire. Right. It's like a firefighter is going into a fire, but they're there to to actually save somebody from from whatever the fire around them is. And so Yeah. So like when I think about CEOs I think that there's different styles of CEOs, but at the same time, there are certain characteristics and traits that make up a CEO. And as I think about and that's like comparing Steve Jobs to Bob Iger, which is the first that kind of comes to mind, right? Two different CEOs both I think would like did a great job being trusted with what they had. My question is then. How is Christians, how do we need to think about how we show up as a CEO differently than what we might see in a corporate setting? I think the goal of a lot of CEOs, and I don't know, you know, all these CEOs' personal beliefs, but the goal of sort of let's call it the non believer CEO in most senses is to deliver the most value. And run a great business that's highly profitable and continues to grow. That's that's kind of grab more market share, make shareholders more money, yeah, make the board happy, employ a bunch of people so that they make more money. Yeah. And as a a Christian CEO, our goal is to make Jesus' name known and to steward what he has put in front of us. And so as a Christian CEO, that's the marker of success. That is the desire I would say that each one of us should have is is God allowing me to lead this company something that's resulting in stewardship of the gospel and of his name being made known in and through the business and the way we serve our clients and the way we serve our employees and the way we right, steward every aspect of it. That's really the the test. Because you can win the other one and not win this one. Sure. And then what? Then you're then you're just you're Solomon, right? You're like, it's all vanity. I guess in a way, is are there characteristics or traits that you might ascribe to a CEO typically that couldn't or shouldn't be true as a biblical CEO? Mmm. Hmm. I think that all of us have a picture in our minds of what a great CEO is. Sure. Or even what we've seen in a movie for what a CEO is. And I don't know. I can't speak for everybody else, but I can tell you that growing up that would be something like powerful, impatient, perfectionistic. I which again you can t I would take all of those and throw them out for the Christian CEO, right? We don't we don't have any power. It's Jesus power. He is perfect and we are not. That is what actual humility is, is having a right view of yourself. we are we are called to be patient and be caring. I think s a lot of CEOs maybe they wouldn't want to be called this, but they're seen as cold hearted. You know, that I think that's why like on on TikTok I did a series for a while of like stuff your CEO won't tell you that I will. Yeah. Because people look at CEOs and they have disdain for them in a lot of ways. They don't feel like the everyman. They don't feel like the every woman. They they just feel like a caricature of a money hungry, greedy, powerful, relentless driver and that couldn't be more opposite to what a Christian CEO is. I think that there are things that are misunderstood or even miscategorized. You know, there's relentless and then there's diligent. Right? There's there's powerful and then there's humble and there's so much more power when you realize you don't have it in humility. Yeah. In that sense. So I yeah, I think you probably write a whole thing. There was a whole there was a whole book, I think on a I can't remember who wrote it, but she did a study on CEOs basically being psychopaths. Most CEOs being what would be categorized as a clinical psychopath. In what way? In all of the ways they they have detachment from reality. They see people not as human but as objects for their own outputs. They're disassociative. They will put on a mask and th th they'll do the opposite of authentic because they're just trying to get people to do the things they want them to do. They're cold blooded, right? In the sense that whatever, we'll cut more people and we'll change things and I don't care. and you know, I'm I'm no psychologist, but I think that there's a reason in a world that does make God money, or money their God rather, that that's the kind of person who would quote succeed. Hmm. What I I think about some of the stories that you've told me, and I think about even At Challant, just some of the processes we've gone through. And I think about the idea of letting people go. And I think that the typical construct is slow to hire, fast to fire. And I think that you have really showed me what it looks like to bring patience into that conversation. And it feels really weird. but I think because it doesn't make sense, and that's not you know what all these books say. And I think that's something that you've done a really good job of is integrating like that unbreakable cycle to where once a month there is some sort of a goalpost to where if you succeed, if you fail, it kind of serves as a KPI in a way. Yeah. to where we're looking at a metric of success. And if failure persists over a certain period of time, you know, conversations happen and they progress. And I think that I I'd love to just kinda understand one, how you got to that framework and two, what you think is unique and different about it in comparison to, hey, someone hasn't been performing, you don't feel like they're the best fit. Thanks so much. You know, you're we're you know, time's your time's up here. On your way, yeah. Yeah. I think a big part of how I came to that was a combination of both the corporate experience and then my initial experience with the entrepreneurial operating system EOS. And I think in corporate, one of the big challenges was documenting performance, putting through people through performance improvement plans. Everything was very systematic. And in that sense, you learned that accountability is as easy as your documentation is. And most people who struggle with accountability Typically struggle with documenting how people are doing. That's usually they go they go hand in glove. And with EOS, I think that the idea of getting big things done was a great idea and moving people toward these big goals every quarter. And so in my mind, when I came up with this idea of cycles, it was combining a lot of things that I had either studied, used, or played with. So I used to lead digital channels also at at the bank and we ran on sprints because it was a dev team, right? So we ran on these six week sprints. So you had this idea of a sprint that I thought was really good. You had this idea of accountability on here's your job, here are the KPIs, here's how you're performing on each one, and every year we'll do a review of how you've done against them and then you'll get, you know, your your annual review and your raise and everything associated with it. And then EOS was, hey, w we've got these big goals. How do we get to them? And we're gonna try and get the biggest quote rocks rolling and done in this company every quarter. And it was like an amalgam of going, I don't like this, I like this. I I I like Lean Six Sigma, but I don't like this. I like I like 40X, but I don't like this. And and so that it basically combined the two things by going, we can be stuck with busy work that's unimportant. And I am very concerned with hitting the big goals. I don't want to be distracted. So let's let's do that. And then let's move it into this kind of monthly cycle because one month is actually a really short amount of time. Anybody who has adopted a one month cycle approach on execution knows that it goes really fast. Yeah. And you know the month starts and you're like, dude, we're three days in. w what what's going on? Yeah. So that allows for fast enough pivots. I think that was one of the big problems for me was With EOS I got four at bats all year. So if I set four big quarters of rocks, man, if I'm on the wrong trajectory, I've lost a big period of time. Yeah. And so it doesn't allow for the right amount of speed. Monthly cycles allow for that speed. Then on top of that, on top of all of that, you get the benefit of that corporate from an accountability perspective because people are pitching their own ideas. Right. So in the system they have to pitch their idea, which means you came up with the idea of what you want to work on to move us toward our big goals, which makes it so that accountability becomes a much easier conversation. Because this wasn't something that you decided for them that they're struggling to get to. It was something they had the idea to work on. They said what they needed in resources. And every week they said how it was going. If they fail and continue to fail, it's like, hey man, you you pitched the idea. You didn't raise your hand throughout, and now it's happened multiple times in a row. You keep you it's an opportunity for you to really coach them and really help them through that process. So landing there for me was a big, a big unlock in that we had accountability, but it also left room for us to do our annual reviews different, which As you know, we we do them totally different. so we're we're still holding people accountable to execution, but they're not all smashed together on how they're doing with the core values. I do want to come back to this conversation, but I think it's important for you to share how you do the annual reviews. Yeah, so we do an annual review based on the fruit of the spirit. So our core values are the fruit of the spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, and each person is asked to share how they demonstrated or where they've seen the fruit of the spirit in their own life and then also how they've recognized it in their leaders or other people in the company. And the reason is those are the things that I want people to be held to as far as the culture goes. That's the culture protection is doing an annual review around just your core values. And then the way you a and it's really asymmetric, right? Then the short time frame is we run on monthly cycles, so everybody knows they're executing every month. And if we're not executing on the objective part of the job, that will also make itself very plain along the way. So you get both. Came up with some great ones, loved it, you know, it was fantastic. And I very much look to the fruits of the spirit and of What does the Bible say about core values? And then I picked words around it. And I think when I met you and you're like, Yeah, my company's core values are the fruits of the spirit, I was like, I am an idiot. Like that's I was literally trying to like take Jesus out of the entire equation and which then, you know, talk about the the crusaders, you know, would get baptized with the swords outside the water. And I'm like, that's exactly what I'm doing. It's like I'm not giving my business to God at all. And I was like, that's a that really that messed with me. That was the first really big shoot, man, I I'm not doing that at all. So what I'm curious of is let's say just sometime in your experience of running this unbreakable cycles, what someone's not a good fit, right? Yeah. And you might like you you're maybe seeing like writing on the wall, but you kind of have to also look to the KPIs or some metrics to also justify it. Yeah. And so how how do you approach that process? It it's really one where it's a real conversation with people along the way. So if somebody is failing at their priority for the month in the cycle, one, that conversation should be happening with their leader throughout the period. Week to week, they're gonna raise their hand if if they're struggling within the system. Hey, I this thing's deviating because of X, Y, and Z. And that's when it's time for you to jump in and help. And then at the end of the month, it's it's spending the time doing a postmortem. So that's one where people definitely forget when you run on monthly cycles because it's so easy to quickly get to the next one, that you don't actually run a postmortem on what happened before and ask them questions about, Hey, you know, this thing went like this, you failed. So the approach is always a conversation. And then it's what do you need from me? How can I serve you better? They still are going to have to do the work. At the end of the day, I've had s so many instances where I w I really want to do it for them. And I can ask them all the questions and say, what else can I do to help you? what if you tried this? What if you tried that? They still have to do the work. And that's the hard part when you really care about people and you really want them to do well, is when they when they still don't. And then that becomes a conversation around how are you feeling about this? Because people want to do their jobs well. Mm-hmm. So if somebody's failing, just asking them the question, like, how are you feeling about this? And, you know, w what do you think needs to happen? Yeah. So I I really want you to break down the process of someone being let go, right? At at that point to where you would part ways or for you, maybe give them an offer for a job that's Not the current one they have, but maybe one more suited for them. How what does that timeline look like and what are some of the milestones that happen along the way? Yeah, the typical flow is going to be you're talking six months, most likely. Mm-hmm. For the I would call that the end-to-end time frame, somewhere between three and six months. Because you would have had the initial conversation. There would have been a verbal warning, right, to let them know, hey man, you've failed now two cycles in a row. This is an issue. If this continues, right, then we're gonna move to a a more formal, written that's going to have expectations. Hey, you need to set a pitch, set a cycle, you need to execute it. Then you move into the thirty to sixty day period, that next thirty to sixty day period of them getting that done, and then you get to the final. And then after that final, if the pattern continues and you've given them everything and you've gone through a verbal and then a write up and then a final write up, now it's it's time to figure out next steps. And so that usually goes one of three ways. One, you uncover an opportunity for them to pivot to a different role within the company. two, they self select Because you're having real conversations and they're saying, Hey, I I wanna do somet I think I need to do something different and I've done that and given people time where they've said, Hey, I I actually think that I need to do something different, but I need some time to figure that out. And so I I've had conversations where I've said, Okay, great. and they've come to me and said, if I can just I I wanna put in my notice, but I wanna, you know, give you three months. And for the next three months I'm going to try to find something new, but no matter what, at the end of three months, I'm gonna make the shift. I've had that happen. or of course the the least desired f fashion is that you have to sit them down because they won't they're not interested in leaving. They their self-awareness maybe is is lacking. and they just don't have what it takes to do the job and they don't want to do anything else in the company. And so then typically if I'm if I'm terminating somebody it's going to be in a really generous way. So I'm gonna send them off much better than they came in. They're gonna have more of a severance. If they don't even have a severance, they're gonna get a severance. we're gonna look at covering medical for their family, right? Whereas corporate they're like If we if we terminate them on the end of the month, then that immediately gets rid of their benefits because it ends at the end of every month. Whereas I'll do the opposite. hey, well, let's do it on the first so that you have it extended through that entire month. So finding ways to send people off and and just r remind them like, hey, this is this is professional sports and you know, you're you're maybe becoming a free agent and I hope to see you out there kind of thing. Yeah. So Typically in a corporate environment, if someone's not a good fit, Fastifier, right? That could be in the I mean, less than a week's time. You can do so most most corporates are they're at will employ employment. And so you can get fired instantly, on the spot. You can come in on a Monday and your job's gone. But most good corporates do have some sort of documentation structure. They just compress the timeline. So they do the same thing that I just gave you, but it's a compressed timeline and it's really just like a countdown to being terminated versus an actual desire for change. And what is a compressed timeline? in the banking world, you're talking thirty to sixty days. i at the at the at the most and then if you're not documenting, then you're just talking about instant. There's a you know, come in, you can come in Monday. Or usually they'll do it on a Friday, a Friday afternoon. Yeah. that's a that's a huge time for corporations to terminate people because it's leading into a weekend and they can you know, you're not gonna be at the office and there's there's a lot of corporate strategies for how they you know, it's it's an art because they they do fire and terminate so many people and it's it really is a machine. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause you're the timeline you kind of expressed to me is you could hire someone, realize they might not be a good fit. And it's not until nine months later that they actually are leaving. yeah. And so you and I have had an as like a side conversation, but I really do want to double click into this. Is at what point is that poor stewardship? Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a really good question. I think that it's there's definitely a lot of grey there. I don't think that there's a math answer here. But I will say that the way I think about it is if Jesus walked into this business today, would he be looking around figuring out who to fire? And for performance or for this or for that, or would there be a very concerted effort to come alongside that person and and do as much for them as you can? And then of course at a certain point help them do something else. Yeah. Because it's as I said earlier, no one wants to not be good at their job. No one. Yeah. Everybody wants to to n do a good job and feel like they're doing a good job. And so sometimes that's reassigning people or redeploying people. and I think from a stewardship perspective, the stewardship has to do with what we believe about our master. Right. The one who buried the talent was afraid of his master. We're not afraid of our master. So we believe that God is good, that he is sovereign, that he's given us this business as steward, he's also put you in a position for a reason. And I do think that consult the word of God, get biblical counsel, and then make a decision. but it but it's not unfortunately for us and for numbers people me, it's not a math equation. It's more it's more art. It's more art than it is science. Yeah. One of the other analogies that you gave to me was using the comparison of marriage. Yeah. Yeah. Can you can you kind of like do you remember that conversation? Of course. Yeah, of course. I feel like that's so worth sharing. Well, what stuck with it from you for for you? Because I I have lots of thoughts on marriage and business. Yeah. I think it was, when I asked the question about stewardship, I my question kind of it was like, Hey, at what point is it poor stewardship? And I think your answer was you look at marriage and instantly for me I like, okay, I get it. And the point and you know, add your words along the way. But the point was essentially it's like, what's the goal? Is it to like win a conversation or win the long term, right? And like the long term vision of where we're going, or the relationship in this moment. And like finding that balance. Yeah, I mean it it comes back to the the relationship aspect, which sounds like kind of what you're you're talking about that's really the whole point is is my desire here to invest in this relationship or is my desire to you know win this argument. Yeah. And and you can win the argument. In business it's easier to win the argument. Yeah. Yeah. And then you can just kind of like wash your hands of it. But I think obviously a marriage is still a marriage. There's there's a it's a different covenant. But we are stewarding something that is not ours, which includes the people. And I don't believe that Jesus ever looks at anyone as transactional. And so if you turn people into transactions, then that's the kind of business you're r you'll run, right? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. And so if you treat people relationally That doesn't always mean it's gonna end how you want it. It just means that you're treating them as a human, as God has called you to to treat them and not as a cog. Hm. Yeah. So it going to the conversation of relationships and hard conversations, do you have a rough framework for how you navigate hard conversations when you have to have them? Hmm. Yeah, typically I use the the Oreo method. Yeah. Is my my typical method, which is really just starting with something positive. all these things have to be true. Starting with something positive, then sharing the hard thing that we need to talk about, and then finishing with the same positivity. So that might look something like, you know, McClain, you've been here this long. And I'm honestly really grateful for you. And I know that your heart is in this thing. what I've noticed lately is that you haven't been performing up to the standard of, you know, really the role that you're in. And you've failed, you know, this many cycles and blah blah blah. Right. And and yet I really believe in you and I believe that you can make the adjustment. And I am also going to be here to support you. Whatever you need, I'm here to support you. My desire is to see you grow and get better. and so I think in that sense, it it's a it's a it's a sandwich, a love sandwich, if you will, which is really like the truth in love. Right? The white the white is the truth and the chocolate is the love on the outside. it's almost like God n knew exactly what he was doing when he told us to share the truth in love. I think when you do that genuinely, authentically, and you mean it, that's the that's my framework that I use that I've found to be the the most authentic approach and the best approach. And I would say, you know, ninety percent of the time it's received well. Sometimes people just don't believe you. Or you know, there's lots of things that can happen along the way when it comes to having to talk to somebody about not performing or not doing their job well. so that's my framework. What are some things that you feel like you're learning right now about running a biblical business? Hmm. That it's a lot of fun. That it's incredibly rewarding. And that I don't know if I'm I guess I am learning it because I'm learning it every day. And that is that there's no end to the infinite wisdom of the Word of God. to apply into the business in really practical ways. And if you can just ask yourself the question when you're dealing with anything in the business, well what does the word of God have to say about this? You can just you can learn I can learn so much. I learn so much every day. So it's amazing. It's amazing that we think we've got it figured out or we think all of the books have been written. and that is true in the sense that the Bible has been written and the wisdom is there and it's just a matter of choosing to ask that question along the way in the business, like we were talking earlier about w whatever, this approach or this market. It's like, okay, what does God God's word have to say about this approach? Yeah. Yeah. It you know, I think about two weeks ago you finished your transcript or your manuscript for the book. Yeah. Sent it off, going to the publishers, coming out, pre order now. My question for you is is was there anything that was left on the cutting room floor that you wish could have been included? Yeah. I mean there was a lot of elimination. I I think I originally set out for the book to be a hundred and fifty pages. Uhhuh. That was because I felt like a hundred and fifty page book is one that you can read in a in a sitting, in a in a good sitting, drink it in and then do something with it. And you know, I think we ended up well, we ended up over two hundred and twenty pages. and that that still left a bunch out. And I think, you know, with the benefit of technology now. I also have all the transcripts from all the videos that I've made. So I've made, you a thousand plus videos over the last year and I have there's a lot of thoughts that I share there that I've shared because I don't do a lot of scripting and so I'll just have a thought. I'll be reading the word and then I have a thought and I share it. And I'm like, Ooh man, that would have been really nice to I should include that. But where I l and ultimately landed was the point isn't to drive them to the biblical business book. The The point is to drive them to the business book. The Bible. And so what I really want is to inspire I hope the book inspires people to go here and to dig deeper here to figure out how they can apply it into their business. So I think going back to what I said earlier around this being this like infinite source for applying it in the business Well, I think there's probably a bunch of stuff that people are doing now, I know, all over the world, applying biblical principl principles into the business, that won't make it into any book. And and so I think as much as I wanted to add more, the real thing that I wanted to add was more pointing people to The word of God and getting them excited and even curious or skeptical about what I'm saying to go go look at the word of God. And and so that's that's the real hope for me. And so yeah, you do get a bunch of stuff left on the cutting floor. And the good news is with that is that you've got, you know, you've got material if you want to do another book. Sure. Yeah. Was you know, you've been coaching for about a year now as well. How much of the conversations that you've had while coaching people have influenced the book and the final manuscript. I would say that the coaching hasn't necessarily influenced what's in the book, but in the book, right, I skipped endorsements and I have quotes from people who have I've either worked with or have been following the you know, the biblical business or dispensable CEO social stuff. And I think that's been really cool. My desire in the book was for it to be an authentic outpouring of my experience from a biblical worldview in practically applying it to the business. And I think what's been amazing about coaching people is that I've been able to see other people's businesses or just their lives and their relationship with the Lord impacted through what was those principles and their desire to apply biblical principles. Because again, it it's not really about the seven principles as nothing. So I think coaching is a it's been very selfishly rewarding for me. Because I get to just see and hear people's experience and watch their relationship with the Lord get really put into the business. Can you Give an example of how it's been rewarding. gosh. It's sort I mean, could tell you every single person that I've worked with how rewarding it's been. hearing people say that their wives w are the ones who are the happiest because of the way that they're now engaging at home. Or you know, that something as simple as leaving your laptop at work or not having your phone with you. Or people starting Bible studies within their businesses or people putting Jesus on the the front door of their website, or building in, you know, giving away Bibles Or it's been I would say there's there's that kind of stuff and then there's just the relational side of it for me that's really rewarding. Getting to know people and then see them grow along the way and watch God work in and through their business in different ways. Some people's businesses experience more challenges, others are you know have this huge hockey stick. This is not like, Hey, come let me come help you 10x your business. It's really just like I'm gonna point you to Jesus. And and he's gonna do what he's gonna do. And that's to me, that's the coolest part. Mm-hmm. What I love the eighty twenty principle. And I'm curious if there is like an eighty twenty principle when it comes to some of the conversations that you have with your coaching clients. In what sense? That that like it's it's all basically the same conversations in in a big majority of them and that's what's moving the needle? Like certain eighty percent of the certain problems. Yeah. Eighty percent of the same conversation. And what kind what conversation is that? I don't I've not found that to be true. Only in the sense that the big one is that people have a desire to follow Jesus and see that implemented into their business while also building a great business, building a an excellent business. That is what I would say is like the big overarching consistency. But in the businesses, it's wildly different. I Don't have any two businesses that are in the same industry. Purposefully. And nope. Mm-mm. Just by God's grace. And so you just have very different problems and very different stages. People who are in different stages. Some who are needing a lot more focus on the finance side of things, others on operations, others on marketing, others on business development sales, others on executive leadership, others on scaling and systems. It's it's like it's like That's probably the the other part that's the most rewarding for me, right? Like I've talked about the book, the way things work and how that that was my favorite book growing up. Yeah. That's essentially what it is with these people who I get to work with is I'm just sol I'm trying to help them solve different problems and that's a lot of fun. Why why is that your fav favorite book growing up? I I've always been interested in why. Why does it work that way? Why does this pressurized space pen work when you're riding upside down or underwater or on grease? You know why? And that book is is this cornucopia of random things? You know, how do laser how does fiber optics work? How does you know a megaphone work? And I find that all to be fascinating. I think mostly what I found later is because it allows me to further appreciate God's creation and just how incredibly complex and beautiful all of life is and how there's always more underneath the surface. which is also then why I do the things I do with design and why I like Easter eggs and things that you people maybe not know about. I think that probably is an echo there. Hmm. You you mentioned how there's a lot of similarities or at least comparisons that you can make between marriage and business. Yeah, I was curious how. Man, in a marriage you are called to be selfless. You might have a desire, but your real goal is to look at your spouse and figure out and try to understand in the obvious and in the very unobvious, in the said and in the unsaid, what their deepest desires are and to help to come alongside them while at the same time doing something more than just the date night or more than just, you know, helping them with their business. It's like we are we're in this for a much bigger reason. and this reflection of marriage is the reflection of, you know, Christ and the church and this beautiful picture of eternity woven together and redeemed. And in business, it's like we're the sum of our parts, right? It's like y you have a bunch of moving things, but you also are wanting to lead this business for something bigger, a purpose that's bigger than just making money. And and and I think that's that's a part of what makes business fun. Can you give me like a more specific example? Mm. like in marriage? Or in business. I mean con conflict resolution is a perfect one. you're in the middle of an argument with your spouse. Are you trying to win the argument? Or are you trying to are you trying to be understood or understand? In business, many times leaders go down the path of trying to be understood instead of trying to understand. and it's a perfect exercise. You can you can you can practice that. You you're you're training. You're training every day for this in your marriage and you can take that one over and and apply it into the business. I think a lot of times people just create these like separations like we're gonna do this over here, but then in business I'm gonna be that type A, you know, this it's like, no, absolutely not. so conflict resolution is a really a really easy one. Even just hot dog stand effect, right? Like how do you care for people? People want to be known and loved in that order. And so how are you in marriage showing your spouse that you know them and then loving them? Doing something for them, writing something, do doing something they didn't that you thought about that went far beyond just the surface like wish list they gave you for their birthday kind of thing. And it's the same thing in business. You can do the obvious things, right? You could do the very unobvious things. so I mean you could just think that's a it's one that you could probably have a whole book on by itself. Is that true for parenting as well? Absolutely. Yeah. I think parenting takes you to that next level. Uh-huh. And now you have your executive team and you're trying to figure out how to inspire the staff to greatness. and what you learn is that everybody's different. And that, you know, the plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance, but haste leads to poverty. So it's you know, we are sanctified degree by degree. And that's what it's like to to try and parent. It's also what it's like to lead people in a business. When does that get messy? Right? Right. In business, you mean? 'cause you don't facause you don't fire your your family kind of thing? sure sure. I was seeing it more of like the way that you interact with your spouse is not always the way that you would interact with your your children, depending on certain circum cer certain situations, circumstances. Are you thinking of like arguments? I could see arguments, yeah. I I think that that's a good one. Cause at a certain point, right, it's there's not like a peer to peer relationship when you're the CEO of a company. Mm. Well I I would argue I would argue against that actually. I I think that I think that when you have a high quality executive team, an executive leadership team, you're supposed to be able to fight like brothers and sisters. If you're a gr if you're a good CEO you're going to encourage and demonstrate the truth in love. And you should have like like mommy and daddy might be we might have a conversation behind closed doors that you don't know about. But when we come to you guys, it's gonna be a united front. Even if one of us disagrees, we agree on the approach going forward. And that's very similar in business too. You're gonna sit in a room with a a CEO with your leaders and you actually might disagree. But once you come to that united front, we're not gonna like tell the the team that, well, McLean wants to do this, but I don't. that that's a that's a no no, just like it is to be like, go talk to, you know, mommy said this, but I'm gonna go talk to daddy instead. Yeah. the idea of fighting like brothers and sisters. I can understand how that would make sense from like a senior leadership team. But can you help me understand how that also makes sense still when you add the CEO to that? If the CEO can't take the the truth in love, then there's there's an opportunity. I think people are sometimes afraid. but that comes from your own personal choices. Right? Meaning like y somebody might not want to come to me and tell me something because they're afraid. so how do I create an environment where They know they can do that. Part of that's just like testing. It's kind of like when you tell somebody, Hey, come tell me these things. Well then they learn. Right? If they come and tell you, like, do you actually receive it? and so I think it it takes a lot of time to build trust within a leadership team to where you will have that fight. And that's the same thing in marriage. That's why so many newlyweds people be like, it's newlyweds and they don't really fight. And that's because they're learning how do we engage in conflict. And you know, twenty years down the line, you know, it's like, hey, you really mess this thing up. What are you even doing? Right? Because trust has been developed over time. It's the same thing in business. It doesn't happen overnight. Hmm. What does you know my question is what does good conflict look like in the business sphere? And my the context to that is I think about some of the habits that my wife and I developed in that first year or so of marriage, where we are coming in with our own emotional baggage and then bringing that in and then figuring out how to fight. right, the way that we're learning and unlearning how to fight now was based on like maybe constructs and habits that we developed in those first few years of marriage. Yeah. And so what does healthy fighting look like in that leadership sphere? I think it looks similar to the Oreo method. I really do. I think that the idea of sharing the truth in love is really the idea that needs to hold true. It it it's really when we get away from the truth part or when we just only share the truth. without any of the love. Yeah. I think that's that's the the litmus test is also asking people how they felt and giving people an opportunity also to clarify. I think a great for example, a great just tactical behavior is to say, what I'm hearing you say is this, this and this. Is that right? And almost always you're not right. Or they'll be like, Yes, but also because they want to add more color to it. And so creating space for that without being accusatory, without having a your own agenda on where you'd like things to go. Again coming back to wanting to understand versus only wanting to be understood. Mm-hmm. Most people speak to understand to be understood and not to understand. and it's the same thing in marriage. That's the stuff we do all the time. We're like, you just you're not understanding me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. man, I know the book is coming out soon. Soon. The target right now is November twenty third, because one, one, two, and three is seven. Nice. Yeah. The numbers are coming out. It matters. It matters. What are some ways that we can support you over like basically this next month? I don't know. Hang out. Hang out. There's nothing to I mean, obviously there's been some really awesome people have pre-ordered it, people have done, you know, bulk orders and it's been amazing. But I think if anybody has ordered it, apply it and then go to the Bible more in your business and that will be how you can quote help me because it's it's it's Jerry McGuire. Help me help you. Yeah, yeah. how can we be praying for you over the next month? Pray that The Lord's name would be glorified and that more people would come to know him and that they would enter into a deeper relationship with him in and through their businesses or the businesses that God's given them to steward because of it. Man, I love that. well, do you mind if I be the first to pray for you on that? I would love it. Okay. T minus one month in, man. Here go. God, we are grateful for you. We're grateful for just the season and this chapter that that you have us in. We're grateful for Adam and Lord the work that he has put into this book, God, and works out of the way to see the ways that you have used him and spoken through him and and already are encouraging us through the text and the words that he's put on that page. So I pray that through this book your name be glorified, through this podcast and these conversations, that your name be glorified, Jesus. I pray that that we can begin to know you deeper and understand you to a different complexity. I pray that we can start to give our businesses to you and that they are not something that we hold on to and keep to the world, but Lord that they th that you take them and that you run with them and God that we can baptize our businesses and Lord just officially just give that to you. And Lord, as we grow to know you more and understand you more and welcome you into the business. I pray also that we have more of a passion and desire to know you and to read your word each and every day. And Lord that you work in our hearts and renew our minds in that. so Jesus, I pray that you protect Adam and protect him from any spiritual attacks that might come. And Lord that you protect his family. that you surround him with your angels, Jesus, and that that especially through this next month, those next two months, Jesus has you you are going to do work. You're already doing work. And you're going to continue to just bless the conversations and and the words and just the way that you're about to use this entire book, Lord, that you have your hand on it and that you protect he and his family. And Lord that you use this opportunity in this platform for your name to be glorified. So we pray all this in your name Jesus. Amen. Amen. Thank you brother.