Latest / Rosters to Rings Podcast / A.J. Hinch Managing Players and the Front Office

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A.J. Hinch Managing Players and the Front Office · Rosters to Rings Podcast

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Rosters to Rings Ryan McDonough with Thad
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Levine as always that we have an exciting show today.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: We have the manager of the Major League Baseball leading
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Detroit Tigers joining us. And also we've started doing something
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: new on Rosters to Rings that's taking questions from our
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: listeners and fans who please submit those questions on social media.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: We'll try to get to as many of them as
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: we can. But that one of the things that you
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: and I talked about that we really want to do,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: not only on this show but going forward, is react
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: from a front office perspective to different big events that
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: are happening across sports. And where I want to go
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: with you today is Major League Baseball and the situation
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: that's developed in Boston over the last few weeks with
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: the Red Sox and some of the disagreement, the breakdown
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: and communication between their front office led by Craig Breslow
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: and their star Rafael Deverge of star Designated Hitter. That
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: why don't you take our listeners kind of behind the
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: curtain and give us to your reaction to what's going
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: on in Boston.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Well, clearly what we see as fans, because you and
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: I are both fans. Here is a player that was
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: pretty disgruntled, and so I try to dig down what
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: transpired here, and I rewind to the offseason when they
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: acquired Alex Bregman, and I just want to get your
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: perspective on this, Ryan, Like, when you're acquiring players, how
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: much do you feel obliged to let your existing players
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: that those acquisitions are taking place. I always felt it
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: was a situation where it behooved us to stay ahead
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: of the communication as best we can. But we're informing players,
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: we're not really asking for permission. Certainly, when you get
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: to a point where you're pursuing a player such as
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Alex Bregman who plays the same position as Raphael Dever's
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: your star player, they're both third basemen, it would be
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: ideal to get ahead of that and communicate a forehand.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: That didn't happen in this case, and that seemed to
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: be the start of the issue.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that communication is so important. However, at
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: the same time, one of the realities of pro sports
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: is that what's best for the team isn't always what's
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: best for each individual player, right, especially if you're bringing
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: in a talented player who may cause a player to
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: shift positions or play less or put up less numbers,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: especially as that player is approaching free agency, and then
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: it impacts the contract as well. We've seen that across
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: sports and organizations that balance and blend is very difficult.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: So that where do you think things kind of went
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: off track in Boston Because one of the things you
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: and I have talked about is the communication and looking
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: at the Red Sox situation, I think that triangle is
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: so important with communication from the front office to the
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: clubhouse to the player or players. In Boston, it seems
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: like there's been come some kind of breakdown because I
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: see the quotes from Raphael Devers, from Craig Reslo, from
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Alex Khorr, the manager, it seems like they're saying things
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: that are somewhat different.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Well, they just don't seem like they're on the same page,
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: which is a little bit unfortunate because I think that
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: leads to a lot of breeds discontent across the three platforms.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: And when you see that, the fact that the general
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: manager or is being attributed to having had the direct
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: conversation with the player. I don't know about you, Ryan,
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: but in my career, very very rarely did I ever,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: or did the general manager I was working forever, have
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: a direct conversation with a player absent of the manager
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: or the head coach being centrally involved in that. The
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: quotation suggests that maybe they weren't all in the same
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: page here. I think that then leaves the door wide
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: open for a lot of doubt. And I think the
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: other communication that is key to this one is the
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: fact that at some point they told him, hey, we
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: think you're better as a DH, which is to say
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: we think Bregman is a better third baseman. But what
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: the player is probably hearing in this case is you
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: don't believe in me defensively. So now all of a sudden,
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: he's feeling that the team doesn't really have a lot
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: of faith in him. Subsequently, they're now asking him to
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: play a position he's never played before. So you didn't
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: think I was good enough to play the position that
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I'm very experienced in. Now you're asking me to play
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: a position I've never played before, so he thinks they're
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: not really putting him in the best position to succeed.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: I think that breeds another level of discontent in feeling
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: devalued by your franchise, which is really damning to this.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: So I think that's another real important factor in this discussion.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: So the question we got that from one of our
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: listeners was, you know, do you remember other situations like this?
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: How common or uncommon is this with devs? You know,
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: going into the year anticipating that he was going to
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: be the designated hitter primarily, if not exclusively, And then
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: I think, you know, one of the things as I
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: look at that, that you never want to do from
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: a team perspective is put a player in a position
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: to fail. And so I think that's, you know, may
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: lead to some of the turmoil and some of the
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: mixed messages out of Boston because I think if you're
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Raphael Devers or the people around him, you're worried in
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: terms of throwing him out there for a team that's
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: right around five hundred and we know the expectations to
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: come along with playing for the Boston Red Sox, putting
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: him in there kind of midstream. Keep in mind, he
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: didn't have an off season or a spring training to
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: prepare for this. I think that's one of the things
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: that's concerning that from an organizational perspective, and may have
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: led to some tension and friction in this situation.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Will call me a glass half full guy, But I
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: assume every player aspires to be a team player. So
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: why is Rafaeld Devers acting in a way that that
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: is not supportive of that? And I look at it
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: and say, you know, to your point, he's played eighty
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: two hundred plus defensive innings in his major league career.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: He's spent zero of those at first base.
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: I think it's.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Easy for fans to criticize him and say, well, you know,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Bryce Harper moved from the outfield to first base when
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: they had Schwarburn Castianos moving to the outfield. He also
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: this offseason, by the way, made a public that if
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: they were able to acquire Pete a Lonzo, he'd.
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: Move right back to the outfield.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: You've seen guys like Mooki Betts move from rightfield, where
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: he was a gold Glover, to play second base and
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: then shortstop. You've seen Wilson Contreras and Saint Louis move
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: from back from behind the plate to first base. The
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: key though in all those situations they had at least
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: spring training, if not also the entire offseason to prepare
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: in this case, rafaeld Evers was being asked to do
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: this on the fly, and I think that's another way
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: where he is a player probably doubted whether they were
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: putting him the best positions to succeed. Mirror that up
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: with the fact that he felt blindsided still by the
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: move in the offseason and the fact that the communication
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: was inconsistent. I think it leaves him standing on a
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: position where maybe he wouldn't have otherwise, where he's now saying,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: I'm going to put myself first because it doesn't feel
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: like the team is doing it in this case. And
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: I think that's where we're starting to see a little
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: bit of a fissure. And when you see these types
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: of undercurrents, I think it's really difficult to compete in
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: the backdrop of that. It's so tough to win when
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: you have these undercurrents, especially when your star players are involved.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: It just makes that task so much more daunting and
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: right in your career in the NBA, have you sens
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: us when you were in the seat, did you ever
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: talk to players directly about changing positions or is that
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: conversations that always went through the head coach.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I think it should always have to go through the
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: head coach that because I think when you go directly,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: either as an executive or an owner even to the
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: players and tell them one thing, if it's not exactly
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: what the head coach or the manager wants, then you
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: undermine the situation and you break down trust. In some ways,
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: I view it like parenting, where if your kid hear
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: is no from one parents, you can't let them go
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: to the other one and here, yes, if they want
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: candy or whatever it is. You have to be consistent
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: and aligned in your message messaging, and I think there's
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: no quicker way to break down the relationship, you know,
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: than the players in the clubhouse or the dugout looking
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: upstairs and saying, well, the manager, head coach, he's not
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: really in charge here. Those are the guys in charge,
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to listen to them. And that got
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: creates a ton of friction, and we've seen it, I think,
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: not only across the NBA, but across sports, and the
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: good organizations don't do that. There is a uniform, consistent
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: messaging where there's no end around from their player's perspective,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: if the manager or head coach tells you to do something,
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: it's an organizational decision, and I think the best organizations
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: stand behind that.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: And Ryan, I think you're you're saying something that sounds
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: so simple and so business savvy, and I think fans
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: would be surprised to hear how few franchises are run
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: exactly the way you just described. It seems so elementary,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: it's so fun, foundational to success. But it's a time
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: honor tradition where managers and head coaches will say to players, hey,
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: this isn't my call when he sees that it's unpopular
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: as a player. It's the guys upstairs. And sometimes I've
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: even had managers tell me, hey, I'm doing that or
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: I did that, but don't worry. I'm still in line
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: with what you're saying. But I've got to keep the
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: morale of the clubhouse going. But it's toxic, and those
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: types of undercurrents are so so problematic to trying to
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: achieve your ultimate goal, which is winning at the highest level.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: Like a lot of things in pro sports, it's easy
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: to say, it's difficult to do and difficult to execute
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: consistently when you have different players, agents, the fans, the media,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: everybody has an opinion, and especially when you're losing things
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: aren't going great on the court or the field. That
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: pressure is magnified, it's intensified, and that's where you see
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: the fissures break down if that alignment is not one percent.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: We have a great interview coming up with Detroit Tigers
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: manager AJ Hinch of the major League leading Tigers at
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: the best record in baseball at this point. He is
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: stad Levine, I am Ryan mcdonoughs. Stick with us, will
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: be right back after this with Aj Hinch.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to rosters to rings. Here with Ryan McDonough
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: were e static to be bringing on our guest, AJ Hinch,
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: manager of the first place Detroit Tigers. AJ grew up
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: in Oklahoma, got drafted out of high school by the
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Chicago White Sox, then ended up going to Stanford, where
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: he was drafted again out of junior year by the
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Minnesota Twins, went back for his senior season and got
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: drafted by the Oakland Athletics. He had a seven year
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: major league career before he segued into the front office
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: and then in two thousand and nine, Aj was a trailblazer.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: He became the first manager with limited to no managerial
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: experience as he took the helm of the Arizona Diamondbacks.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: He was a manager for two seasons, and then he
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: returned to the front office in San Diego, where he
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: was a conciliary to the general manager in a variety
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: of leadership roles. Started with the Houston Astros in twenty fifteen,
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: spent five seasons with them, capping it off with a
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: World Series championship in twenty seventeen, and just following one
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: game short in twenty nineteen, finishing his career there with
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: three consecutive one hundred plus win seasons. He joined the
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Detroit Tigers, where he's now in his fifth season as
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: the manager. He's not only the manager of the first
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: place Detroit Tigers, but the best record in all of
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: Major League Baseball. Welcome to the show, AJ. We're ecstatic
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: to Avion.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, and thanks for the memories
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: walking down memory Lane.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: We have a lot of friends along the way. I
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: guess I also should have included in the intro that
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: AJ is a really good friend of mine and a
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: mentor throughout my career. AJ. One thing I just we
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: wanted to touch on in our first segment. We tried
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: to dissect what transpired in Boston between Raphael Devers in
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: their front office when they tried to move him to
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: first base. So much as said of the game right now,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: of analytics, but I want to talk to you about
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: for a second, is the human side of things. And
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: you guys faced a similar challenge when you had to
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: approach jave Baias, who is one of your star players,
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: you're a highest paid player, and talked to him about
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: the proposition of no longer being your feature short stuff,
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: but rather taking on a different role than the team
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: of being a super utility player roster's rings. We try
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: to take fans behind the scenes and understand what those
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: conversations are like. Can you just help us, help us
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: understand how did you prepare for that conversation and how
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: did you present that to Hovey.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an interesting, you know story, given the background
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: when I got to know Hovey from Afar, you know,
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: you see, like the the the elmago, the personality, the shades,
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: the sort of bigger than life personality and aura around
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: him when he was with the Chicago Cubs and when
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: we signed him. One of the things that I that
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: I really worked hard on was to try to figure
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: out what was important to him like what made him tick?
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: Like what what what was what was the thing that
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: could unlock you know, this ability that we could all
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: see pretty naturally, but but maybe not as consistently as
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: we want. And so you know, I over the years,
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: I've traveled to Puerto Rico, spent some time with him.
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: He took me to his house, He's taken me to
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: his uh, his properties around Puerto Rico and show some
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: of the ways that he grew up and some of
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: the ways that he you know that that the things
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: that were important to him. And so that laid a
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: foundation of trust that that allowed me to just be
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: super direct with him with what we needed. And when
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: last year, when when he was hurt, you know, he
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: watched a team grow up in front of his own
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: eyes and he saw its start to utilize the roster.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: He saw us start to bring young guys up and
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: give him opportunity. And so when he got healthy, we
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: just had an open conversation about like, hey, what can
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: I do to help us win? And when I say win,
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: it's always easy for people to think that that's the
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: highest priority for everybody, but it truly is for hobby.
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: Like one of the things I learned. When I go
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: in Puerto Rico or go talk about his background. He
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: talks about the early years with the Cubs and how
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: important and how cool of a run it was when
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: they won the World Series, and he talks about the
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: feeling at the end of the day of winning and
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: what that means to him, and so winning was big
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: priority for him. And I got to shoot it straight
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: with him, like, if you want to win, and you
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: want to win here in Detroit, this is what we
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: need from you. And he was all in from the
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: very beginning. And I had mentioned second base, third base, shortstop,
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: a little bit of center field, and I told him
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: the truth, and I told him this is the best
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: way that he could help us win. And he took
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: it and ran with it and has been a central
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: figure on a good team winning a lot of games
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: because of of the way he handled that age.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: I think the three of us all started in pro
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: sports around the same time, late nineties, early two thousands,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: and one of the trends at that time was that
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: if you started down one track, usually stayed on that track.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: And what I mean is if you started on the
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: front office track, you ended up in the front office.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: If you started on the coaching or managerial track, you
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: ended up there. You've done both. Recently in the NBA,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: some of the most successful coaches and executives have crossed over.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: I think of Steve Kerr, who ran the Suns front
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: office and now was won four championships in Golden State.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Brad Stevens did a great job on the sideline for
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: the Celtics and now has moved upstairs and won the
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: championship last year in Boston. What advantages do you think
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: your front office experience has given you and what did
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: you learn in that time has helped you as a manager.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, great question, and thanks for bringing that up,
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: because it is part of my story that I you know,
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: I'd done a lot of different things as a player.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: You know, I thought that I was going to play
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: for twenty years and and be great and never have
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: to work again, and then just and just kind of
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: right off into the sunset with this legendary career. And
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: that wasn't how it played out. So when I when
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: I stopped playing, the front office to me was like
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: a fresh new start. I went from being an aging
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: player to a young executive, like literally overnight. When I
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: got hired the people looked at me differently. You know,
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: I was young, and I was new, and I was fresh,
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: and I had playing experience, and I learned a ton
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: during that time in the in the front office. Number One,
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: I learned what it takes for a player to get
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: from point A to point Z, right like from the
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: draft or from the Dominican Academy and across the board
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: and and knocking on the door of the big leagues.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: You know, what what is player development about? What is
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: player evaluation about? How does nutrition play into fact routines?
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: Just the growth of a player from from from one
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: area of the organization to the to the highest level.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: And so then when I became the manager or the Diamondbacks,
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: I tried to learn every player as what their story
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: was or where they were in that development curve and
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: what I could do to add to it to make
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: them better at the major league level. So understanding the
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: you know, like I've learned a long time ago. For
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: me to be an effective coach, I need a lot
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: of people to be really good at their job behind
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: the scenes, draft development, you know, player procurement, the health,
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: the wellness, the mental side of the sport and so
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: and for us to maximize what we're doing in the
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: big leagues. All of those people need me to be
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: effective at my job as well, and so that it
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: created a partnership of understanding what a successful franchise needs,
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: and it needs everyone. It's not just the man out
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: front who is who is maybe in front of the
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: camera the most or the one who is the biggest boss.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: You know, as a president of baseball, ops or any
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: any sport, it's a partnership where everybody is relying on
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: each other to be a lead at their job. Then
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: we all get to win h on that front.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: You know, the game is always evolving, but you were
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: really at the forefront of one of the most prominent
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: evolutions what you've seen in the last decade, which is
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: you know, you look at the managers today and I
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: wo'd like for you to talk about some of these guys,
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: but Kevin Cash, Rouccobaldelli, Stephen Vote, those guys wouldn't have
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: been able to have the success they're having today if
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: they broke in when you broke in in two thousand
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: and nine. How much has that landscape changed. How tough
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: was it for you in two thousand and nine to
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: have the success you then ultimately had in Houston and
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: now in Detroit.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so that that was a rough time in two
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: thousand and nine because it was not widely accepted that
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: that you could go a different route to a leadership
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: position in the dugout or on the sideline on any sport.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: It was you had a regimented, you know, path to
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: that job was. You know, you played, you went down
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: through the minor leagues, You migrated across the minor leagues
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: and various roles and eventually manage and then eventually get
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: to a coaching staff. You spend some time in that
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: coaching staff, and then you eventually get elevated to a
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: leadership position. And that you know, I look back at
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: that two thousand and nine in the winter meetings after
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: that year, we had a manager picture and I look
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: twelve years old compared to all the men, all the
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: other managers like my first time, and it's legends. It's
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: Bobby Cox and Pdo Gaston, it's you know, Tony LaRussa
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: and Dusty Baker like legend, Jim Leland like legends in
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: our game that we're managing at that time. And then
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: there was this kid over in the corner just trying
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: not to mess up. And I look back at that
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: now and I, if anything, I think it it you know,
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: my time one. It made me a way stronger person,
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: a way stronger leader, a curious you know mind, and
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: how to how to be good at this job. And
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: that helped me moving forward. But it also opened the
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: door for maybe a different path for people to get
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: into a leadership position without doing it the way we've
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: always done it, which is the biggest trap of not
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: evolving is let's do it the same way we've always
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: done it and see what happens. I'm very thankful for
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: that first opportunity, despite it being rocky and not accepted
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: and widely criticized. That set me up for you know,
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: future opportunities in Houston and now Detroit where I can
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: be a better version of that leader that Josh Burns
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: who hired me, originally felt like I was going to
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: be in the dugout.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: You know, It's funny, every one of our positions has
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: had significant evolution at some point. I remember when I
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: was hired first by the Colorado Rockies, by the same
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Josh Burns you just referenced a good friend to both
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: a j and myself. I walked into the office and
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: I had just finished getting an MBA at UCLA, and
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: I told the general manager that I had an MBA.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: He said, you played in the NBA, to which I said, no,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I have an MBA. It's like, what position did you play?
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: I was like shooting guard. But it just goes to show,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: like how the skill sets for some of these roles
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: have changed so dramatically over our careers and for positive right, like,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: the game is constantly evolving, and it does it sometimes systematically.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: And when you reference that picture of those storied managers,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: quite a few of whom have become Hall of Famers.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: That was an error where managers had a very different
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: skill set in my opinion. You know they were it
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: was they established what the way the whole team was
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: going to play, and if you didn't play by their standards,
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: you typically got traded. And so it was it was
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: one way for the whole roster. And now Aja, when
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: you're managing, it's individualized for every single player. And if
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: you're not doing that, if you're not the team strategist
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: and psychologist, you're not excelling in today's game. And no
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: longer can you just say the skill set is to
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: glower at umpires and kick dirt on them periodically and
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: then say it's my way or the highway, like you're
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: one of the people on this team, but you're no
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: longer the central like forward facing person who is the
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: biggest personality, and you've got a tailor to every single
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: player on your on your roster.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so coaching is interesting. So I remember when I
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: walked out from my first game as manager of the
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: Diamondbacks and there was a middle aged fan holding up
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: a sign that was like, what does AJ stand for?
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: A joke? Like, no one wanted somebody that was either
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: younger or different path or or inexperienced in those roles.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: And that's because everybody relied on that person to be managerial,
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: that person to to be the the governing voice for
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: the team. And that's still the case, where the head
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: coach or the or the manager is the governing voice.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: It's the way we do it is a lot differently
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: because we've learned it's no longer every player adapts to
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: the manager entirely. They do. There are cultures, there is
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: a standard, there is an operating way that I'm going
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: to do it differently than other managers around the game.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: But my job, in my coach's job, is to adapt
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: to the players. You can call it generational, you can
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: call it you know, the best way to make that
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: person the best player you can. However, however you want
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: to describe it. It's our job is to make the
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: players better and we have to adapt to them, like
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: their background, their learning style. How do they are they texters?
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: Are they do you meet them face to face? Can
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: you scold them or do you need to hug on
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: them and love on them a little bit more? What's
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: their upbringing? Did they have a male adult figure in
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: their life growing up and how does that impact their
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: you know, the way they learn. I mean, there's so
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: much that that goes into investing in how you coach.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: That is not just I'm the boss, listen to me,
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: I know everything. That is not the way that modern
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: coaching is accepted now, nor is it is it effective.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: And the point of coaching is to be effective by
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: making your players better and get the best performance out
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: of them. It's not to sit up on a pedestal
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: and act like you're the only one in the dugout
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: that knows something about the sport. That's a trap, and
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: it's something that I think as managing has changed, information
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: has evolved, the players and their upbringing is different. We
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: have to evolve with the times, and the most effective
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: coaches do.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Aj. In the intro of Thad mentioned your playing career
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two. You're a National Gatorade Player of the Year.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: You went to Stanford or an early round pick, second
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: third round pick, being drafted a couple times and going
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: back to school. The question I have for you is
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: about Spencer Torkelsen, because I think when you are the
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: number one overall pick in any sport, in any draft,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: that comes with an added level of pressure and added
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: level of scrutiny. We all know the lists of the
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: great all time number one picks in each sport and
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: the guys who are considered busts or have failed. Torkelsen,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: obviously highly touted, drafted by the Tigers number one overall
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, struggled a bit in his career, especially
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: as a rookie in twenty twenty two before recently breaking out.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: How have you worked with him and how have you
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: helped manage the peaks and valleys of Torkelsen's career, which
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: is certainly on an upswing. Yeah, I think it's I
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: think it's tough being number one overall pick in this era.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: One is there's no patience whatsoever, Like there's you're not
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: allowed to struggle, and you're not allowed to develop slow
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: enough like you have to. They're expected to carry the
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: franchise from the beginning. I think one thing that fans
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: may not always love is when when you have the
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: one to one overall pick. The majority of time, now
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: some of the processes in the different sports have changed.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: When you and get the number one pick and not
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: necessarily be the worst team, but generally speaking you are
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: one of the worst teams and you have the one
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: to one pick. So what does that fan base want?
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: What are the coaches want? What does the manager or
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: head coach want? They want that guy to like fix it,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: like they want that guy to be the headliner for
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: the next good team for that franchise, And I think
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Torque had a little bit of that here. Both he
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: and Casey Mayes were sort of annoyed the like, hey,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: better times are ahead for this franchise because they were
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: picked one to one at a time where the team was,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: you know, one of the worst teams in baseball, and
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: that that doesn't always line up with perfect development. And
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: I think what I've tried to do with Torque is
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: just keep them grounded yet continue to push him, like,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: just have them realize that failure is a part of
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: it and he doesn't have to carry the entire team. Now,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: when he had thirty homers a couple of years ago
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: and everybody was expecting him to, like now be the
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: best player on this new emerging team, my job was
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: just to keep him center focused on contributing to a win. Uh,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: be better at zone discipline, get himself better at first base.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: He's he's not the sole reason.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: That that that we're losing, and he doesn't have to
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: be the sole reason that we're winning, and and kind
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: of lift some of that burden that gets put on
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: guys like him. He's had to go through swing changes,
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: he's had to go through demotions, he's had to go
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: through you know, uh, people not expecting him to contribute,
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: and now he's you know, borderline All Star and and
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: is gonna it has a chance to potentially finish off
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: one of the most successful first halfs of his career
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: and be the exact player everybody wanted him to be,
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: but didn't want to give him the time to to
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: develop to that point that to me has been Torque
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: has been awesome. Case He's been awesome, and I think
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: the noise around him is starting to subside that that
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: that they have to be what our expectations aren't. Just
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: let them be the best version of them and it's
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: pretty good and we're going to like their career, you know.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Aja, you also shed light on something that is a
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: reality of sports too, which is it's tough to tank
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: and to you know, the draft lotteries are designed to
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: dissuade teams from tanking, but not every draft is created equal,
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: you know, not every one one is created equal. And
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: I think in the in the sport, Casey Mize and
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Spencer Torcals were you know, unilaterally viewed as the number
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: one picks in their drafts. But it's a little bit
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: different year over here, right Like the Washington Nationals picked
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: one twice and they got Steven Strasburg and Bryce Harper.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: You know that the strength of those drafts may have
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: been just at a slightly different level when you were
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: in Houston. They weren't all one one picks, but you
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: get Carlos Korea, Bregman, and Kyle Tucker in the top
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: five picks. So it's sometimes it's the strength of the draft,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: and sometimes the burden of being the one one is
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: you're compared to other one ones and not all one
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: ones are created equal.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well I had Zona, we had Justin Upton as
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: the one one as well, And like the issue with
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: with that high a draft pick is we compare them
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: to the outliers, like those Hall of famers, those those
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: those players that are like they carry the whole franchise.
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: They're actually more outliers than common, but yet we want
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: to make them common because you're drafted one one. So
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: I think it's all it's all parts, and I even
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: fall victim sometimes that in other sports that I follow,
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: that you expect this meteoric rise when it's no longer.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: So I mean, like Justin Upton had a really good career,
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: Torque and Casey are going to have really good careers.
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: But if they are not sort of the outlier hall
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: of fame, you know, franchise retiring numbers. I mean, if
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: you just look around, like not everybody is is pecked
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: in order, like you always redraft, it's never the same.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: Like we're not perfect at the draft order. The player
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: at the time of the draft is not always the
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: best player in that draft ten years from now. Yet
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: we hold everybody accountable to like you were, you were
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: drafted here, you need to be this. And that's where
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: it's unfair to the to the players. Like I understand,
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: like we always want more. I just try to have
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: some rational beliefs in in in how hard it is
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: to to find that that that player that you know,
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: everybody expects to be, you know, their number retired there,
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: their plaque to be enshrined in Cooperstown. It's okay. If
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: it's not that and you're drafted one one, you can
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: still be an incredibly good player on incredible good teams
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: and we should accept that. Well, you just mentioned it
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: annoying somebody. The savior of franchise is really a moniker.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: Very few can actually live up to. You know, similar
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: corollary as I remember when I was in Texas. You know,
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: all these national pundits anoint a number one prospect in
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: the game, and jerks and Profar was the number one
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: prospect the game. It just so happens the two previous
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: ones were Mike Trout and Bryce Harper, so there was
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: an expectation that he was going to deliver at that level.
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: He's turned out to be a solid average major league
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: player and played for a long time, but no one
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: was going to live up to those standards. But that
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: was what the fans expected because he was the next
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: in the line and the previous two guys turned out
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: to be you know, you know, Hall of Fame caliber players. Yeah,
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: I mean, and what if we're wrong as a whole industry,
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: Like it doesn't we're not always right, like just as humans, like,
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: you know, we we have these lists and you know,
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: Terre Skoogle was a ninth, ninth round pick and he's
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: now arguably the best pitcher in baseball. Like like it's
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: not a linear like exercise for a lifetime. Like just
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: because you get annoyed the best prospect doesn't make you
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: the best player. Just because you are passed over eight
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: times thirty, you know, and picked in the ninth round
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: doesn't mean that you can't be the best pitcher in baseball. Like,
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's just that's just common of common knowledge
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: that that you know, the process on the front end
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: doesn't always you know, you know, predict what the future
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: is and.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: As we record this show, the NBA Finals are going
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: to get started soon. And I believe that of the
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: ten starters on the OKAC Thunder and the Indiana Pacers,
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: one of them was a top ten pick. Chet Holmgren
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: was drafted in the top ten. He was third overall
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: by OKC. The other nine guys on the court were
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: drafted between eleven and undraft. Some of them were undrafted.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Lou Dort defensive stopper for OKC. So, yeah, that does
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: crossover sports to where I want to go now with you,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: aj is without giving away any trade secrets of divulging
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: competitive advantages. How is the game changed from when you
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: were a player to now as a manager with the
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: use of data. I think from a fans perspective, some
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: of the shifts the pre pitch movement and set up
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: is pretty interesting. How has that evolved and how do
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: you weigh managing that in terms of looking at the
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: number you know, the numbers, but then going against what
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: the numbers say at as times.
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think I think if we would just
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: replace like analytics and numbers with information, we would all
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: feel better about the interpretation of like what how does
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: that impact Say, hey, I use more information in my job,
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: or a player uses more information in their job. We
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: would think, oh, yeah, cool, But all of a sudden
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: you're saying, hey, he's using numbers or analytics, and everyone
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: freaks out, right, So I think I think it just
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: being a forward topic has changed over the years, Like
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: we measure everything now, so we can you know, we
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: used to talk about lateral range and now we can
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: literally measure it and see if if an infielder goes
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: to the right or to the left better. We obviously
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: have gone through the shifting, the defensive positioning. We can
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: now sort of measure the value of that and where
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: somebody is going to get to them to them. But
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: it's still players, you know, It's still it's still humans
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: that are that are doing it. So we utilize information,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: you know, all the time in everything that we do,
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: you know, But I always say you have to combine
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: what you see with what you know. You know, what
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: I see is still you know, is that player you
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: know in the ready position, does his pre pitch start
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: at the right time, does he make the right move,
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: does he read the ball with his eyes?
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: Well, I can sometimes confirm that with out feel routes,
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: or I can confirm that with burst, or I can
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: confirm that with with with a bunch of information. But
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: there's still a human element to this that we have
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: to pay attention to. So I you know, every player
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: is different. There are some players that want every pitch
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: metric of the opposing pitcher and that's how they talk,
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: that's how they were raised, what went on in college,
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: or maybe they were raised in high school that way,
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: and they can hear eighteen vert with three horizontal and
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: it clicks to them what that means. But for every
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: player that's like that, there's another player that just wants
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: to say, hey, it's a carry fastball with a little
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: bit of run towards you, so you know, to deliver
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: the barrel in the right spot. We got to figure
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: out which is which, which player can handle information and
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: which player you know, needs it needs it translated a
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: little bit differently, and we're okay with that. You know,
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: it doesn't it's not a one size fits all. I
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: use information to make a ton of decisions. And I
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: would ask anybody if someone's running a team or running
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: something for you, would you want them to have the
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: most information available to make good decisions. And the answer
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: is yes, So we're not you know, we are not
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: like throw the numbers at the players and and you know,
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: let them interpret it how how it goes. We use
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: it as as a way to to to to prepare
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: our players for the competition ahead. And when they step
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: in that box or they step on the mound, or
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: they go feel their position, now you go play and
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: use their athleticism because they're prepared.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: H A.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: I got to give Ryan credit here. Three weeks ago
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: and we had our first show. He said, keep an
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: eye in Oklahoma City, keep an eye and Dan, and
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: they're the deepest rosters in the playoffs, and we may
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: see them prevail. I would say, you guys are the
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: same way. And this has meant is no disrespect to
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: any individual player in your team, but it's not a
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: star forward roster. It's a deep roster. You utilize twenty
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: six guys more thoroughly than any manager in the game.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: And I think that just gets back to your role
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: as a manager, which is your job is to fundamentally
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: put guys in the best positions to succeed and then
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: team buy in for that. So I just be curious,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: like how intentional is that for you? How do you
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: establish that in spring training when you tell guys, hey,
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: you may be hitting second against right e's, but you
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: may be hitting seventh or eighth against lefties, and I
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: want you to stay engaged and I'm using you to
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: your best of your ability.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So it's interesting because I think when you, you know,
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: back in the day, when everybody talks about the past,
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: and I don't care what sport it is, it's like
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: five on five, it's you know, nine on nine, Like
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: that's the that when we write the starting lineups, when
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: we when we watch the game, like that's what we're
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: watching whatever team is on the field versus whatever team
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: is the opponent. And that's always true, but it is
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: really twenty six on twenty six. And if you have
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: one team that doesn't necessarily want to use their whole roster,
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: and you have us, it creates an automatic advantage, like
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: it's our thirteen position players on their nine, you know,
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: so I want to use that thirteen against nine. Now,
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: obviously the players, you know, when I talk about buy
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: in or I talk about why, it's a generation where
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: you've got to explain why you do what you do
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: it no longer. Is is the way of like I'm
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: the manager, I'm going to make the decisions. Well, that's true.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: I've got to explain why. I mean, I got two
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: kids that I got to explain why to all the time.
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: And that's the generation that I'm managing. And so we
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: tell our players everything, and what I've what I've been
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: able to convince our players is that it's not about
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: a player coming off the field or a player that
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: I'm replacing. It's about the player coming into a situation.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: So that's the pin hitting, or that is the reliever
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: coming in for the starter, or a reliever coming in
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: for a reliever. That player is being utilized because our
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: twenty six is going to beat their twelve or our
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: thirteen position players are going to beat their nine. And
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: we've got our players understanding that everybody's on this team
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: for a reason. We're going to utilize them to the
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: best of their strengths, and we're going to do it
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: again tomorrow and the next day and the next day,
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: and over time we're going to win more because of it.
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: The best part of that message was last season when
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: we went on an improbable run for two months and became,
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: you know, a really difficult team to play against, and
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: that belief system was just entrenched in our guys to
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: where the buy in is incredibly automatic and you step
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: in our clubhouse, and that is because of the players
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: that the players have really, you know, done a good
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: job of committing to what it takes for this particular roster,
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: you know, to maximize the win total.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: Aj I want to go a little deeper on what
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: you just said about last season and the trade deadline.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: We're recording this show in early June. I think it's
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: easy for some of our listeners to forget that ten
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: months ago, early August of twenty twenty four, you guys
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: were fifty two and fifty nine, the trade deadline had
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: come and gone, and the Tigers were objectively considered sellers
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: at the deadline. So take us inside that time. I've
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: seen a lot of organizations across different sports kind of
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: let go of the rope when you know, the players
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: and coach or managers say, hey, the front office and
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: ownership they're looking forward to next year. You guys did
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: the opposite of that, you surge last year, and that
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: came up with a great stat Since the beginning of
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: August a year ago. Over the last ten months, you've
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: had the best record baseball. Kind of take us in
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: through that time and kind of what change your clicked
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: in early August of last year.
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that time, we were pissed. I mean, we were
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: frustrated that Jack Flaherty's going, Andrew Chaffin's going, Carson Kelly's going,
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: like a lot of veteran, well liked and good veteran
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: players were on their way out the door. Now they
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: were being replaced by younger players coming up and going
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: to give good opportunity. I mean, what we had done
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: to that point did not signal to the front office
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: that we were, you know, kind of ready to take
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: that next step and be a playoff team. But downstairs,
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: that didn't mean that we were just going to concede
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: the final forty to fifty games, whatever it was. I mean,
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: we were we had a schedule to play. And two
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: things happened last year that that I think were instrumental
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: to us making a commitment to do whatever it took
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: to win. And one was we got younger. When we
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: got younger, we got a little bit more athletic. And
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: then when you have that team that transitions some young
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: players to the big leagues. You know, they burst on
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: the scene with a ton of energy, a ton of
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: commitments and open open minds to go and test themselves
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: at the major league level for the first time. So
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: we had a number of the guys do that. The
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: second thing happened is we got healthy. We had an
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: All Star in Riley Green come back healthy. We had
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: Carrie Carpenter, who was one of the bigger threats against
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: right handed pitching, come back at that at that same
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: exact time. So we have an influx of returning players.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: Combine that with some young players, and then we had
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: a decision to make, and I had a meeting with
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: the players and said, hey, listen, we can we can
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: go one of two ways. We can go instructional league,
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: continue to try to chip away at being better. You know,
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: we're just going to keep giving giving opportunity and an
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: experience to this group. Or we can go Game seven
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: of the World Series and try to win every game.
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: And that means pinch hitting. That means, you know, using
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: our pitching staff a little differently, early hooks for starters,
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: Maybe do some bullpen games and really take this and
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: get as many wins as we could. And when I
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: looked out on that group, none of them had won
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: as Tigers in the big leagues, and none of them
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: have experienced what winning was like at the major league level.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: And the players were fully bought in to let's win
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: as many games as we could. You know, you win
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: a series, you win a week, you go have a
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: winning month at the end of August. Now you give
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: yourself a chance in September, and off we went.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: Aj fast forward though, to this offseason. So you go
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: into twenty twenty four, I assume you're still thinking that
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: as a rebuilding season, a springboard to the future. How
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: do you prepare your troops in spring training differently to
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: handle what is now expectations Like I know, you still
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: weren't necessarily the prohibit of favorite to win the division,
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: but you guys had to have immense internal expectations. I've
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: always found as you're in the championship cycle, that's a
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: real pivot point for a group of players. It's how
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: are they going to handle those expectations when you're chasing
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: down the guy in the lead and no one believes
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: in you. You run with wind at your sales when
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: you're looking behind you to see who's following you. It's
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: tougher to sprint forward. How did you help them manage
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: the pressure of those expectations?
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: Now, that was a similar message, you know when when
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: we got to the offseason and and listen, we chase
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: some really high end free agents. Some we landed, some
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: we didn't. And but that's a message that the organization
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: is giving to your your team, like, hey, we listen,
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: we believe in this team. And we added we added
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: Labor Torres, we added Tommy Kinley, we added Alex Cobb,
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: like guys that had that had reputations at this level. Like, hey, listen,
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: we are We're in and our players knew that. And
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: so when you get to the you get to this
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: to the spring, I'm one on trying to embrace all that, Like, listen,
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: the expectations are what they are, or teams that are
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: going to be interested, and I mean, but we're either
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: going to prove them right or we're going to prove
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: them wrong, regardless of what their expectation is. Say they
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: think you're a great team, you're going to prove them
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: right or prove them wrong. Say they're here, they expect
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: you to be a bad team, You're going to prove
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: them right or you're going to prove them wrong. And
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: so we just embraced like our internal expectations will always
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: exceed anything that an external person says, because we have
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: our bar like we have our standards, we have our
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: you know, our our level that we expect our team
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: to operate at. And so that again, that buy in
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: was really easy. Now listen, we're coming off of October.
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: And I said this last year, once you play in
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: one October, you want to play in all of them,
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: like you never want to miss October again. And because
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: we returned our entire playoff roster that was active in
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: Cleveland when we lost Game five of the Alds, there
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: was no messaging of what the expectation was. Internally, it
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: was very obvious. We want to win the Central, we
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: want to taste October again, and we want to give
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: ourselves to win a championship. In order to do that,
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: we need to move forward and we need to look forward.
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: To your point, you can't run looking backwards, like you're
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: just not going to going to operate fast enough. And
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: so we put things out in front of our team
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: to to chase. And and one is a division title
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: and you don't win the division title in March, April, May, June.
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: You've got to build towards that and earn that by
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: the time that that that September comes and and that's
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: where right we're in the middle of this race right now.
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: We've won nothing other than a lot of games to
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: put us in a position that we're in today, and
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: now we need to put a lot more games together
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: to accomplish our first goal.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: He j One of the things that told me yesterday
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: that I hope I'm not giving away trade secret. One
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: of the things that said about you that I found
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: really unique is that you keep a lot of lists
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: about people who impressed you across sports. Obviously, I think
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: most of us do it with players. I think fewer
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: do it with you know, coaches, executives, trainers, et cetera.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: If you could take us and the listeners inside, you
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: know how you started doing that, why you do that,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: and why is it so important to you?
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's a great question. It's not it's
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: not a trade secret or anything. It's it's more of
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: a habit that I that I developed in the front
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: office when I came off the field. You know, I
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: got immediately put into a hiring position like I had.
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: You know, I oversaw a player development for the for
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: the d Backs, and I had six minor league teams
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: and a Dominican academy and and and I had coaches
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: and trainers and strength coaches and everybody under my my watch.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: And I was like, man, the only way that I
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: know how to stay organized is keep lists. And so
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: I during my travels or during it started with me like, hey,
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: I'm impressed by that guy or that coach is really
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: attentive in his early work from a different team, and
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: I just wouldn't. I would just keep because I was
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: always hiring somebody at the end of the year, whether
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: somebody was getting poached from another team or we were
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: moving on from someone. I had a lot of staffs
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: that I was that I was hiring for, and so
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: over time that became a habit and it was important
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: for me. It also allowed me to to kind of
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: figure out what was important to me, Like his presence important,
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: Is their tone of coaching important? Is Obviously I can't
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: get too close with somebody else's coaches, but I I'm
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: I observe kind of how they interact with players and
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: how they interact with each other, and and I started
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: to keep that that log over over time. And I
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: also other executives, like, hey, it was really cool meeting
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: Jed Hoyer, who was at the time assistant GM of
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: the Red Sox, who later became my boss in San
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: Diego after I got let go. But I like, I
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: like the way he went about his business, you know,
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: I like the way that that that that people operate.
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: And and that's something I've done my whole career now,
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: which is when I see something I like, I write
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: it down, I log it. You never know when you're
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: gonna need a hitting coach or an infield coach or
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: an outfield instructor, and you have detailed notes from something
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: over that over time, you can That's how I got
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: to love George Lombard, who's now by bench coach. It's
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: you know, it's how I love Billy boyer Our, you know,
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: our our field coordinator in the minor leagues, Ryan Garko,
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: who's our farm director now and assistant GM, with somebody
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: that I that I got to watch. I didn't I
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: didn't hire all these people, but I I learned their
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: their qualities. You know. It's something that I was attracted to.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: You know, one thing I think AJ is underselling here
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: is how much he's helped other people and how rare
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: that is in the game right now. I think when
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: all three of us started our careers, and certain certainly
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: AJA and Baseball did, there were a lot of people
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: who did look out for the betterment of the game,
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: and they weren't people who you necessarily worked for. Like
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: I harkened back to the impact Kevin Towers had for me.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: I never worked for Kevin Towers, who's an excellent human being.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: Billy Bean has always been a great mentor for me.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: I've never worked for him. I think that was the
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: generation that we started with. It was just greater cause
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: to help people in their in their careers. AJ is
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: is a little bit of a throwback in that regard.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: So I can tell you from an executive standpoint, almost
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: any time I've gone to a new team I need
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: to hire somebody, I always call AJ and just asked,
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: what you know what you got on somebody and you
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: know the ability to access Hey, I need a double
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: a pitching coach, I need a third base coach at
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: the big league level, or I need a scouting director.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: AJ always has an idea, and it's more than just hey,
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: this is a good person. It's this would be a
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: good fit for you. And I think that's just a
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: rare quality that he has and something he should be
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: really proud of, because I think for somebody who's been
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: touched by him and who's been influenced by him, I
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: would hazard a guess of the twenty nine other clubs,
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: he's probably placed somebody in the vast majority of them
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: at some point. So it's not just to help the
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: teams he's worked for. I'm sure that's what he should
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: lead with, but I'm just going to tell you from
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: an outsider's perspective, he's helped a lot of us in
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: the game find the right partner for us in various
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: roles throughout organizations.
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: I appreciate saying that. I mean it. This is a
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: people business, you know, and I've always value that portion
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: of of our responsibility. And you know, these jobs are hard.
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: You know, I don't care whether you're on the field
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: or if you're in the office, and you know you
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: have varying degrees of relationships with people, but there's it's
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: it's one of the best jobs in in sports when
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: you do it with the right partners. Like when you're
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: with the right people. That doesn't always mean like mindedness.
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: It just means that the people that are that are
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: sort of driven the same way. I like being a
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: connector of people and I and I certainly have benefited
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: from that throughout the years on teams that I've that
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: I've been on. But if you can help somebody's career,
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: that's that's one of the biggest compliments you can get.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: Ah.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: At the beginning of our conversation, you talked about how
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: humanly you approached the situation with hobby bias. I'd like
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: to take you into a room that was a little
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: bit less comfortable. Kentamieta is a player who's a long
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: time veteran, veteran in Japan, veteran in the United States,
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: very successful career. Time has come that you guys need
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: to let him go. The stats say it, everyone knows
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: it's the right thing to do. How do you approach
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: that conversation?
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: What is that like?
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: Take take the listeners into your office when you have
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: to inform Kent to my ata that not only is
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: he his career with the Troy Tiger's over, but potentially
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: his career in the Major League Baseball is over.
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I I as a farm director. When
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: I first came off the field, I had never you know,
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: released somebody, or I had never ended anybody's employment, or
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: I had never really had those interactions. And I was
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: very uncomfortable, and I always am. And anytime that it
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: gets easy, you probably need to get out of these
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: these responsibilities or these these leadership jobs. But I think
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: the one thing that is that has really set me
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: up in to to be effective in those in those
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: conversations is the truth. Like players need to know the
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: truth and it they may not agree with it, they
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: may not necessarily see it the same way you do,
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: or they may not interpret it the same way. But
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: you know, I've always prided myself in given the players
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: the truth, and you do it in dignified way. I mean,
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: obviously a veteran player or a veteran coach and you're
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: delivering bad news, you know it. It's you're not going
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: to be cold and callous, but you are going to
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: be direct. And so one of the things that that
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: I that I do is I don't bury the lead,
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: like I'm going to tell them right away why we
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: are in the meeting. At that point, I think I
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: have to allow the player to give any reaction that
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: he wants. It's his career, it's his job, it's his
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: he's the he's the one that that is, that is
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: the that is receiving the tough news. It's not me
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: giving the you know what I'm saying, like, it's not
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: don't feel sorry for me. Be be super kind to
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: the person that you're delivering the news to, but be
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: kind by giving them the truth. And when when it's
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: a player who's underperforming, or it's a player who you
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: know that you're choosing to take opportunity away from being
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: compassionate matters and being thorough matters, they all deserve a reason.
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: You know, it's not a numbers game. You are choosing
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: to give the opportunity to somebody else. And I think
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: that has set up for at the very least, an
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: understanding that that you know that you get it, that
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: you understand that it's a difficult conversation. The last thing
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: that I would say is like, allow the player to
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: be however he wants to be when he's pissed. It's
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: not personal to you, it's personal to the decision or
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: it's personal to the to the to the gravity of
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: the of the situation. But you got to let him be.
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: Then they may be mad, they may hug you, they
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: may bolt out of the room and not even acknowledge you.
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: And that's not about you. It's about what's going on
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: with the player. And that that, to me, has has
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: allowed me to have a dignified approach to a very
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: uncomfortable conversation. Because there are only thirty teams in the
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: big leagues and there are only so many spots, and
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: when somebody loses that opportunity, you never know if they're
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: going to get another one. And I think it's important
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: for the manager, of the coach, the executive to appreciate
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: the situation.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: Those conversations are always uncomfortable. That goes across sports, even
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: if the player knows it coming. Sometimes that makes it
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: more difficult even in that environment. But you're absolutely right,
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: it's on the player and giving him time and space
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: to react to that. And speaking of giving somebody time
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: and space, Thad, and now you're going to let you run.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: You have the Chicago White Sox tonight again. AJ Hinch,
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: manager of the Major League Baseball leading Detroit Tigers, we
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: appreciate him joining us. We'll let them give over to
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: the ballpark. Thad and I have to get back to
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: our couches with potato chips and our feet up, you know,
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: watching the game. You haven't a real job to do.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: Aj Hinch, thanks for joining us on rosters to rings.
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Brian.
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: McDonough that Levine. We'll be right back with you after this.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: What a great conversation with aj Hinch. Always you always
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: learn something when you're talking to him. Very enlightening.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: Ran.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: One of the things that he touched on was how
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: much the role of manager in Major League Baseball has
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: evolved over the last ten to fifteen years. I'd be
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: curious if you could share with the listeners what is
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: the equivalent on the NBA side. How has the head
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: coach position evolved during your career.
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: I think the first thing that stands out that is
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: how much bigger the organizations are now than when you
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: and aj and I started around the same time late nineties,
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: early two thousands. The organizations have just exploded in terms
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: of growth. We know what the franchise valuations are, and
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: we know across sports owners are pouring more money into
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: the operations than they ever have before. And so what
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: that means it's great because you have more information, but
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: you also have more people to manage. You have to
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: figure out how to use that information. I think that's
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: one of the challenges for any leader in sports now
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: is there's so much data and AJ talked about it,
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: you know, measuring different things across baseball, how hard a
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: ball is thrown or hit, how well a player moves,
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: all of those kind of things, you know, but you
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: don't necessarily want to try to give that to each
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: player or really to any player. You have to distill
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: it and filter it and pass it down. So yeah,
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: I think in the NBA, the analytical revolution, especially if
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: you look at the trajectory that of three point shots
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: across the league, it's basically a straight line up into
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: the right. It's what I wish my stock portfolio look like.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately it doesn't, but it just kind of goes, you know, parabolic,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: and so we've seen that. You know, I want to
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: get your trend too. And in MLB it seems to
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: me like, you know, back in the day, players were
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: stealing more bases, there was more bunting. So I think
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: across generations and sometimes even in a shorter time. That
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: these leagues move very quickly, and the best managers and
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: coaches like aj Hinch tend to adapt in real time.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't know if NBA fans rail against
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: a three pointer like Major League Baseball fans rail against
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: the home run because it's so associated with strikeouts. But
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: I think the funny thing about baseball is people say
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: it's ruined by the fact that we're trying to hit
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: so many home runs. In practice, what we're copying there
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: is the NFL and the NBA. The NFL learned very
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: quickly that, you know, you gain more yards passing the
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: ball than running the ball. You know, when you and
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: I grew up, it was who had the best ground
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: and pound game was going to win the Super Bowl.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: Now it's so much more focused on passing yards.
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: And the NBA.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: Now, if you're four and five guide can't hit three pointers,
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: they're not surviving. In the NBA, there's no such thing
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: as back to the basket. Well, the same thing happened
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: in baseball, you know, is the evolution of analytics. But
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: really I think we were the last sport to market
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: with that. It just unfortunately, our positive outcome of the
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: home run comes with such a negative one, which is
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: this strikeout component which fans hate to see. But my
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: guess is the average NBA fan hasn't necessarily railed against
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: it quite as prominently as the Major League Baseball fan has.
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: I think there is a significant faction of the fans
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: who bemoan the lack of a two point shot. You know,
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: all the three pointers and Donk sets the analytical movement.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: The best shots in basketball are at the rim, from
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: the free throw line, in behind the three point arc. However,
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: there's some guys in this playoffs who are making a living,
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: including the Most Valuable Player Jay Gillis Alexander who may
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: go on to win the finals and finals MVP, who
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: are kind of exploiting that that. Yeah, defenses are taught
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: to take that away. SGA works great from the mid
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: range ed as does Jalen Brunson, the key for this
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: next tremendous run. They came up just short in the
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: Eastern Conference finals when they lost to the Indiana Pacers.
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: So I think that's one of the things that's so interesting,
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: right the trends change. I mean, Houston when Darryl Moury
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: and Mike Dy Antoni were there with James Harden. They
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: were way ahead of the curb because they had two
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: guys spot up in each corner and really hold the
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: corners and gave James Harden a bunch of room to
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: operate in the middle of the floor with Clint Capella
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: or a screening rim rolling big and that revolutionize the league.
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: But what happens to that is, you know, is if
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: you exploit an advantage the other teams and you win
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: exploiting that advantage, teams try to catch up very quickly.
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that that's really you know,
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: impressed me about Aj Hinch looking at his career, the
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: situations he got to when he when he got there, Uh,
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: you know, Houston coming off a lot of losing, Salmon
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: Detroit coming off a lot of losing. You and I
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: have talked about that, and I want to get your
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: take on it. It's difficult running or especially managing or
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: being the head coach of a team you know that
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: that's on the way to winning. I think it's very
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: difficult coming in when a team is lost a lot.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: And it's to me, it seems like Aj has done
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: a masterful job in both spots in Houston and Detroit.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: Of taking a team that was losing a lot before
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: he got there, you know, and then have gone on
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: to become some of the best teams in baseball.
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think it presents two sides of
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: the coin. One is you really get to remake a
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: franchise from bottom up, and I think that's something AJ
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: has a real passion for. He has a background and
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: player development as a background. As a player, we heard
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: from him how much he loves to build out staffs.
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: He loves to do that. But what's also happened concurrently
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: is you're losing a lot of games at the major
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: league level, and I've often wondered, like, how many losses
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: can you weather before you're kind of linked directly to
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: those losses, you know, it's not when you and I
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: are getting interviewed, it's very rare that they put your
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: career record up on a scoreboard or a PowerPoint presentation. Oftentimes,
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: when Aja is managing at some point, there's a graphic
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: that shows what his career winning percentage is. And when
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: you lose hundreds of games for multiple seasons in a
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: row while you're rebuilding, even when you know that's the plan.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: That's kind of a it's difficult to get out from
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: underneath that. And so that's where and I'd be curious
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: your take on this rune. Oftentimes we talk about there's
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: a manager who maybe can help weather the storm of
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: the turnaround, but maybe he's not the guy who's going
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: to take you to the pinnacle. And part of the
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: reason is because because he gets so associated with the
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: losing that it's tough to separate him from the downturn
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: the franchise had.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that can be unfair too. And one of
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: the things that I think is neat about AJ's career is,
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: you know, to be honest, I was the general manager
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: in Phoenix of the Suns. I've forgotten that just a
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: few years prior to that, he was the manager of
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: the Diamondbacks. Because when you say a J. Hinch, now,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: I associate him with the best teams in baseball in Houston,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: winning the one World Series, going to a Game seven
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: and losing to Washington the second time. Now in Detroit,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: the turnaround in Detroit, best record in baseball. So that's
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: one of the other things that's difficult. And I give
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: the Astros a lot of credit you know at the time,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: because it's it's difficult to sometimes go and say, hey,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: you know, a J. Hinch was a manager, very young managers.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: He mentioned in Arizona he had a losing record. He
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: wasn't there all that long in that role, but he's
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: the guy we should hire to turn this thing around.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: But the Astros did that, and that's absolutely what aj
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: Hinch did. And you know, shoot, if he keeps us up,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: he's on a kind of a Hall of Fame track
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: as a major League Baseball manager.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And you know one thing that I think
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: actually ties him with Greg Anthony, which I thought was
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: really enlightening to hear how both of them talked about
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: when front offices acquire talent, their view of it is
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: they're not looking at it necessararily just through the lens
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: of how talented this player is, but they're looking through
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: the lens of how well does this guy fit into
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: our chemistry with our leaders on our team, also with
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: the scheme with which we're playing. I thought that was
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: really fascinating to hear because I got to be honest
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: from a front office standpoint, like we're trying to over
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: index to bring the most talented player and of course
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: we do have an eye towards him fitting in. But
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: it's interesting to now hear a former player and Greg
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: Anthony and also a former player and current manager say
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: it may not be talent first, but rather fit first
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: that they're looking at as the most important thing when
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: an acquisition is made.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: I really liked AJ's honesty as well. When we asked
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: him about the twenty twenty four trade deadline, all the
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: veterans that went out of Detroit. He could have easily said, yeah,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: you know, we were fully on board. We understood. He
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: said no, we were upset in the clubhouse, but we
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: still had a number of games to play. And that's
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: when the Tigers turn around happen. As you pointed out,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: from that time, from August to one of twenty twenty
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: four until today, they have the best record in baseball
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: and currently our leading major League Baseball. You know, yet again,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: as we sit here in early June, he is stad Levine.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: I am Ryan McDonough. Thanks for joining us. Come back
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: again and join us next week on Rosters to Rank.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: Please join me host thatd Levine, Ryan McDonough and other
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: general managers every week for Roster Syrings on Apple Spotify,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.