Latest / Upcoming Trial of Nathan Chasing Horse April 14, 2025 / The Aftermath of Trauma

Transcript

The Aftermath of Trauma · Upcoming Trial of Nathan Chasing Horse April 14, 2025

• Marina Crane: Okay so it's it's May the 12th so ask ask my ask the question again please. Well how are you feeling now that everything quote-unquote done? Well I feel I feel empty like I said you know just it's just for me trying to figure out what I'm gonna do next like Like, okay, I've got to do my yard work. I've got, I could do some paintings and then I have the meeting tomorrow. But it seems, I don't know how to explain it. It's like my body feels empty. You know, like people say, well, you've been holding this energy for so long and now it's released. Like I said, you know, I hadn't seen Nathan chasing horse since for 20 years. And lot of people ⁓ like yourself or other people who've never met him, like that has been my conversation for the past 20 years. People who never even met him and then my explaining the situation about him. And then even some of the survivors that I met in Las Vegas, I had never met them before. And the only contact they ever had with me was through my blog. having, it's like a pivotal moment of Anxiety? I don't know. I didn't know what to expect. I sort of knew there was going to be some sort of grieving process happening, but it seems empty. It seems empty because, like I said, he's in a penitentiary at 45 minutes north of Las Vegas. I saw him for the first time on March 11th, for the first time in 20 years. Yeah. Like it sort of seems strange to me because why did I spend so much time, you know, lot of women who had contacted me in the 20 years, they just assumed that I had been in contact with him or that I had been stalking him at powwows or that I'd been, you know, harassing him. But the reality is, no, I just, just, Documented anything that people sent me emails or just ⁓ You know what people were telling me? They're trying to try to put it on my blog like like for example one lady her sister had a child from him and her sister lives in Minnesota, but she lives in Calgary She got after me because she went to Morley at a powwow and she saw Nathan there And she says, how come the RCMP haven't arrested him? He's looking at me, she says. He knows who I am. He knows who my sister is. Like she was literally getting upset with me. And I said, all I'm saying is that, you know, he's wanted for questioning. I said, I'm just relaying the information that I've received. But throughout the years, I've had various people getting upset at me and frustrated with me. Yet I'm in the same boat with them. I'm just I'm just saying to them. I'm just warning you You know, if you have any concerns contact the police Like like this week is is ⁓ victim awareness week or something Okay, you know our tribal police are out on the main highway ⁓ handing out brochures and ⁓ information about ⁓ victims of violence like like a woman has a right to to say no a woman has a right to like in terms of relationships with their partners like just Just the really it's like reading the riot act to women about their safety and that it's okay to say no to their partner or like what's inappropriate touch Like like that's this week and and and for me it's like, I think sometimes when women have asked me, know, ⁓ you're, you're just, you're just, ⁓ obsessed with this creep. Why wouldn't spend any money on this creep? I don't think they like, if they understood like even today, the police are out there educating the public. Just, just as a safeguard. I don't know why some people that I know don't see what I'm doing is similar. Yeah. Well, I think it's probably a number of things, Marina, right? Like they don't really understand what you're doing because they've never really. I think they probably can never imagine doing that themselves. So it's hard to grasp. Well, what you're doing is not like it has nothing to do with stalking him or you know, yeah. Or like or that I've had any kind like that I have any contact with him in 20 years. And I keep I keep on emphasizing that to people. And because they can't, well, how come if you haven't contacted him, then why are you doing this? And I'm going because women are out there and children and boys being victimized by people. there's a whole bunch of Nathan chasing horses out there. And people who want to poo poo it away and say, ⁓ well, he was a movie star and he also was a medicine man. I'm going, no, no, no. It's just letting them know that you have a responsibility to protect yourself as well as your children. Marla, I know we haven't talked in a while, but like I said, I feel empty and alone because I've had to give up two friends. from my community because of in the past month and a half and it's because of their attitude towards me and what I'm doing and these are these are people who I've talked at great lengths about about my blog or about just things that that like even people like like the there are victims of Nathan chasing horse who live in our community and and so you know ⁓ for me ⁓ for me, for me it's just a... trying to protect them. Because I don't think people, like for me, I think part of it too is I didn't realize just how horrific he was. Just like what How could you? Yeah, because I mean, like, my experience with violence is very limited. It's very limited because it was just a one time. Well, you know, like I was, ⁓ and it was such a long time ago and, I've never been in a relationship where, I've had to fight off a boyfriend or anybody. Like, like, like there were a few times, but, it wasn't like what I'm trying to get at is, is, you know, listening and understanding just how many years he put, he puts the, some of these victims through horrific experiences. Yeah. And for me to just say, like the victims, like the survivors, I'm grateful I went. I'm grateful I went and I met them, because it was closure to finally meet them. And they knew who I was. They didn't know how I looked or anything, but they all came to me. That's what's so terrible is how can I explain that to these two women who I'd been friends with? You know, I try to explain to one, she's, ⁓ good, you found friends. Well, I hope, you know, enjoy yourself. Like so sarcastic. When they don't see the gravity of how much this man hurt these women. And it wasn't just like a one-time deal. This was a ritual abuse. This was systematically done to them over decades. Decades. It's just ⁓ mind-blowing. And for people to just look at it as like, ⁓ While he's being charged with this and this you know and all they see is like okay a sexual assault They don't see they don't see the repercussions that it wasn't just the one sexual assault is it was it was the the trafficking and even what includes trafficking I Marla when I first started doing this I just thought like trafficking was like a form of prostitution and like with anything, some places it's legal and they could leave. But the horror of it is this is done to children. They have no understanding of consent. They're being held prisoners. They're scared. They're being used every day. It's just the whole mentality of even how they're groomed. Because I know his lawyer had said, we don't want to talk about grooming. But yet, when I talk to other women and I say, do you know how they initiate ⁓ people into human trafficking? Do you know what they have to do to the body of a person who's going to be trafficked every day for sex? Like, I didn't know. And I think a lot of ⁓ the, like especially these women that I've had to ⁓ stop and not be friends with for whatever reason they just don't have ⁓ I think it's out of state and out of mind it's I'm like they're they're they don't it's not affecting them directly so they don't want to talk about it or even feel about it or understand it but yet but yet but yet you know this happened to the girls in our community. And it's happening to so many other young girls and young men, boys in Indigenous communities. I I did a podcast on lateral violence and I, like whenever I've talked to other Indigenous groups, some of the young women come up and they say, ⁓ my mother went through that. This happened to my mother and my community and this is how the community turned against my mother. So it's not a unique thing or any kind of phenomena. This is just the reality of lateral violence. And the fact that two of my acquaintances, without even them even knowing how laterally violent they've been towards me, I've had to put my boundaries down. And the thing about it is like, It was very limited knowledge that I gave them about my trip to Las Vegas. That's what's so startling. If I had told them everything about what I did in Las Vegas, who I went with to Las Vegas, I don't know. I really don't know ⁓ what their attitude would have been towards me. I think they would have had more to talk about, gossip about me, but I made sure I had my boundaries down and didn't tell them everything that I experienced. But it was still heartbreaking to just ⁓ realize what was motivating them to say things to me. It's sad. mean, good for you for doing that, but I can imagine it's disappointing and heartbreaking to you know, who's in your corner, right? And this at least, I mean, they could never understand in a way because you're in such a unique position of the work you've been doing all these years. ⁓ But, you know, it could at least try and empathize with, you know, what you're going through and how you're feeling and what you're trying to do for these women. It's one thing that I had some distance with my blog. ⁓ But I think what I'm feeling is more heartbreak because I know these women. I've grown up with them. It's one thing for me to grieve and realize this episode in my life will call it. ⁓ is over and that like, like just the like the stress relief is gone. Like it's like the the beginning of it was so stressful dealing with my with my niece and and just dealing with the community and the rest of the rest of my brother, the betrayal of my niece, my my other niece. Like it's just ⁓ just the stress of how it began. Now, as it ends, You know, just some of these people have died. Even some of the mothers have died. Like, so many things have evolved in the past 20 years. A lot of them haven't seen justice for the people they love. And yet the effort has always been there. And I think it's a reality check too that, you when you say murdered and missing Indigenous women, and just when a person goes missing and the family is left. to advocate and keep on searching for that victim. That's how I feel. It's like I can understand that, but it's the fact that just like, it's just like I'm coming home and it says, well, you deserved it. That kind of attitude. Well, you deserved it. And I'm going, even though they don't realize the projecting that, insinuating that on me, I think it's so enmeshed and entrenched in just trying to survive that they just aren't open minded enough. A friend of mine in Montreal said, she says, some people are not open minded. I mean, like the episodes that I try to do, and even before I went to Las Vegas, I tried to upload as many podcasts as I could. You know, people could get ⁓ a gist of the history. It's the reality that even though I put that information out, some people weren't open-minded enough to even understand it. Like I said, that one lady who got mad at me and says, well, he's at this powwow. How come he's not arrested? So all this ⁓ close-mindedness or this lateral violence towards other women, like I said, it's the reality, too, for me being an elder. Say, ⁓ when you invite me to a meeting and you offer me tobacco, and I take it, it's the understanding that when I get into that space, because you're the host, you're protecting me from any misogyny or any lateral violence, anything that I may trigger in the audience, because the people who are in the audience, I wouldn't know them, they wouldn't know me, like most times when I do get invited. But I have in recent, just a few months, have experienced a lot of misogyny. And I've asked, you know, I've said, do you see how they treated me? And the reality of it is that there so many young Indigenous people, young men and young women who have issues with the gender of Indigenous female, either their grandmother, their mother, their aunt, their sister, their cousin, that's unresolved trauma. And they projected onto me a total stranger. without them even knowing this because they're close-minded. that that I maybe the word close-minded isn't appropriate more more in the sense of like they're they're they're still ⁓ unable to process the trauma or feel it yeah yeah and and for me at my age I'm going I I don't have the time I don't I don't have the time Yeah, I think I've like when I talked to my friend in Montreal after we're talking, I said, ⁓ I said, I understand. OK, I figured it out. And she says, well, yeah, you just needed somebody to listen to you so you can hear yourself discuss, you know, what the situation that you're in. And for me, like you listening to me and then me processing it and saying, no, the two women who I've had to just not have contact with. ⁓ was just focused on Nathan chasing horse. Just like you're there, you're there and ⁓ that gossipy thing of what's going on, what's new. But yet, ⁓ like I said, I had to be there and I had to talk to the survivors because some of them... Like I said, I hadn't seen him in 20 years. ⁓ The majority of the women that I spoke to, some had been with him for 35 years, some 25 years, a long time. ⁓ And consistently, like through ritual and ceremony every year. Like that kind of dedication and then for them to realize how dangerous he was. I'm ⁓ not ⁓ saying I'm any smarter or any superior or I have some sort of privilege. ⁓ I just knew something was the matter with him. ⁓ I had the patience to... I had to be patient. I had to try and figure out how am I going to deal with this because he has so much influence with people. And the fact that he, you know, he systematically targeted me for 20 years. Like that's what I don't think these ladies in my community understand. You know, the survivors, they told me, they said, you know, every year he'd be saying, don't like not to read my blog every year for the past 20 years. I think it wasn't until 2015, one of them, you know, had to something horrific happened to her daughter. and she had been reading my blog not believing and she says marina until this happened to my daughter i didn't believe what you were writing and that's like what 14 years ago it's just just the the turning point in her life and how long it took for that case to go to court her daughter Her daughter, like he got life and 10 years for what he did to this woman's daughter. Wow, Jesus. Yeah. And it took, you know, over a decade for like police reports. Those weren't paid attention to. And then finally, you know, something happened and everything sort of glued together like a puzzle. and she was part of the three ⁓ young women who ⁓ did their impact victim statements in Las Vegas. Like how can I explain that to people out there that this isn't just, okay, like, okay, it happened last month or it happened last year and now it's in court? No, this is the impact of violence. isn't just like what you read in the newspaper or somebody was attacked at the sea train or something or you know like that it's that's not like I think we're so used to that kind of crime being announced the the reality of just the the timeline and the amount of energy that it that it's taken not just it's one thing that I put on my blog and I write updates But it's another thing for a victim to try and get somebody to hold space for them. Especially the police. So even here in Siutena, people are curious. And I tried informing one of the moms, but I went to her place and I probably will see her sometime. But her daughter, her daughter was right there at the beginning at 15 trying to get everything documented to the police. And the reality is like, He's in the penitentiary in Nevada. He's gonna make an appeal, appeal the court decision. And once that's exhausted, and this is the legal process, how it was explained to me, he could get off. But he will be always known as a sexual predator. If he gets off through his appeal, for whatever reason, whatever reason, because like I said, the first case was thrown out of the Supreme Court of Nevada. ⁓ But if he does have an appeal and he does get off, that's another thing. He'll still be charged in Montana and in Canada. The thing too is even if he doesn't get off but he's exhausted his appeal, once the appeal has been exhausted, then Montana and Canada will step in with their charges. So that's really consistent. At least they're not giving up. ⁓ But again, too. That's a crazy process, though, right? Yes, well, that's the hardest thing for me when I'm explaining people what's going on. ⁓ Like I've said to them, this is the way the law is. And again, we're not American. When I'm talking about Canadian law, it's totally... How we handle sexual predators is totally different than in United States. But the whole process of just ⁓ educating community about violence against women or sexual assault, like I said, think ⁓ we've minimized it in the sense of ⁓ family violence where ⁓ the husband beats the woman and then she either charges him or doesn't charge him. And they sort of have a marriage and live 10 years before they're divorced or whatever. It's something similar to that, but it isn't. Like, it isn't a one-time thing. This is something that he's inflicted on these children. that he's covered up. And if they hadn't, if he hadn't kept his trophies of all the video tapes of him ⁓ having sex with these children, he wouldn't have been given life. ⁓ Yeah, which is just, ⁓ it's so. ⁓ I don't even know the word for it, but like the fact that that evidence was there, thank God it was. But also, like you say, so many stories are not going to be told because all that will be published in the media now is what he actually was ⁓ put in prison for, right? Yeah, but the meat and the guts. Nobody's going to know the horror of what he actually did. Exactly. The guts. Yeah. And so when I talk about the impact it had in my family, like that's just the after the we will say the after birth or the aftermath. But yet, you know, we're we're, you know, we're alive and we're still thriving here. But yet, yet, yet I know so many children have died. So many so many who've been traumatized and just refuse to live in this world. because of what he did to them. Not just him, but the adults that supported him, the adults that these children looked up to for protection. That's the horror of it. I think too, when you said like, it's the stories that people aren't going to be, that aren't, the stories that... Others aren't going to see all they're going to see is just what was he was prosecuted for and and maybe that's maybe that's why I'm feeling this grief or this this uh loneliness or something it's it's like um yes justice has been brought forward but what about all those you know like there's people in bc albertus escatuan ontario montana north and south dakota new mexico arizona like said, California, all over. ⁓ And the fact that he can stand in that courtroom, stone-faced, saying that he's innocent. Can you imagine like when I confronted him 20 years ago, that's how he retaliated with me was that he was innocent. Bull face lie. Yeah. But I believe my niece. Yes, of course. And the judge saying to his lawyer, he said, said there were no bruises. And the judge says, but I saw the photos. There were bruises. ⁓ That young woman, I saw her when she was eight years old here. I have a niece who's eight. Like the horror of, like I really truly understand in the sense now that I didn't understand before I went to Las Vegas. And after talking with the survivors and even disclosing, I said, well, when my niece was in the ceremony, he would take a rattle and hit her over the head to scare her. And the lady says, well, that's how he groomed my daughter. Like the one who, like the one he got sent sentenced for it. He groomed her by scaring her in ceremonies. And so that was 20 years ago. that he was already sexually aroused by the fear, like what children when he'd scare children. See, 20 years ago too, he had like 10 children and he appeared to be heterosexual, monogamous, ⁓ you know, that he was a youth worker. But listening to the people who knew him for 35 years, 25 years, it seems like maybe even 20 or 30 years, he, ⁓ you know, he was still... There were still a lot of women in his life, but he wasn't so open about polygamy or trafficking. ⁓ He'd already been doing things prior to when I met him, is what I'm trying to say. I really think he was a high-risk child. when he was acting with Bury My Hearted Wounded Knee because stories have come surface that even the people in the movie set noticed that he had, there was a behavior about him, they were concerned about him because he was poor and then all of a sudden he's got all this notoriety but understand this, because of mental health issues that would have really kindled and sparked something devious within his personality and character. Because he already he because he already he was a young father a teenager When it's like in 20 years ago, I think 20 maybe 18 years ago his his oldest child was 18 years old His mother her mother lived in Chicago like, you know The the daughter was in the military at 18 went to the military ⁓ The other ⁓ one of the boys, one of his sons lives in Minnesota. ⁓ He has a boy and a girl that live in Alaska. Those three women, like I had contact with two of them. And the other women who lived like as a like worked within his group, the ones that knew him for 35 and 25 years, they some of them knew about these women and some didn't. So I like I really think that he he did hide a lot of his personal self even to his followers. But but but he became more arrogant, I think, 20 years ago. when he took two of our teenage girls from here. And again, he took them from here because my community is well off. He went into ⁓ Fort Peck in Montana, a very poor community. And to me, I believe he ravaged that place. That's the... And I met the ladies from Montana. They came up and shook my hand. See, that's the thing is like, these two women that I stopped being friends with, they understand? Do they understand like how many people I've been in touch with for decades? Do they understand the impact I've had? They wouldn't have any clue. And even if I told them, they just don't get it. You know, like I said, there are so many murdered and missing Indigenous women and girls, like boys, and there are families out there who are connecting and trying to have groups, support groups from any place, that they'll reach out and just ask for someone to listen to them. And that's what I've been there. I've put myself in a place where they could ask me questions and I'm there listening to them and helping them with what's happening in my community. And that's all I've done. yet, you know, like that's what it takes. That's what it's been taking for decades for women to get together and communities to get together. to just pace things together and realize, don't give up. Don't give up. There's no statute of limitations. Just do the best you can, document what you can with the police and keep on the case of the police. It took all this. It took all the documentation like from Sioux, Tina, from Montana, Fort Peck. I only know those two places because like I said, I'm from here and the lady who was key in getting him banished from Fort Peck, I initially met 20 years ago. She's passed away, but the legacy of all the other Indigenous women, Nakota women from Fort Peck, after she passed away, they were still there, still trying to get justice for the victims of Nathan Chasing Horse. And that's just... in Montana. I haven't visited California or Arizona or New Mexico, but there are those other people that all connected, that all came together to support the victims, like since Nathan was arrested. Good, Well, it also has its own problem, I think that's the reality of it is because, ⁓ see, the white man, I'm calling him Wachash to Wachdeh, so I'm not mentioning his real name. Okay. I really think... okay? Yeah, it's just my allergies. Okay. See, lateral violence is so real, even with the survivors, because, every human being is at different levels of healing. And rightfully so, like the victims of Nathan Chasing Morse. Yes, they came together, supported each other, but they also had personal issues like, you know, personality, character. ⁓ There were issues and ⁓ before I went down, before Wachashta Wishteya said he was coming with me, and again there are two issues here. There was a group of people that I told Wachashta Wishteya was coming with me, like yourself. The women who I'm no longer friends with, I've never told them I had a traveling companion. I just kept that private, even to this day. Okay, so why am I bringing him up? Well, prior to the court and all this, ⁓ a lot of these women, like they supported and they followed Nathan Chasing Horse. So they all knew each other. And when the charges were raised and media started coming to them, it was like the one, ⁓ like some of them wanted all the attention, like media hog. You know, like I'm the greater victim. Yes, of course you're the greatest victim, you know, ⁓ respect those other women. You know, some of these women loaned other victims money. You know, some of the victims they ⁓ took care and had some of them live with them for six months just to help each other. But when it went to the court, the women who needed the most help turned on the woman who was helping them the most. And like lateral violence wise. And I didn't really understand, but I sort of understood because I told Wachash to Wachdeh, I said before like going down there, I haven't met the victims, I haven't met the people who followed him. I said, I only know my older niece knows of them and knows some of them. I didn't know to what extent she was friends with them or if she was just acquainted with them. But I did warn them. said, I don't know if they're going to, if they're friendly to me. because my older niece isn't friendly to me. I said, so I don't know what to expect when I see some of these people, because they commented to me on my TikTok. They've lashed out at me, like saying that I had no right to say things about her mother or about what was going on. And I'm just relaying to them that, no, this is what I saw 20 years ago. And I said that to Wachash Twashtey. I said, I... I don't know how they're going to react to me. Like they may confront me, they may yell at me. I don't know. But it was a surprise for me when I, the March 11th, when the women came up and hugged me and shook my hand and knew me. I was totally floored that I had people respecting me, thanking me for my blog. However, the two individuals that I was still apprehensive about never talked to me, never looked at me. And it was after the delay on the 11th, ⁓ afterwards that, what did they call the, in the courthouse they call victim services the person. They have a department or a section that helps the victims, victim services, much like in Canada. And they had contact one of the ladies and they said ⁓ that the other two were making complaints against another group, a woman that they said she accidentally took a picture on her camera. Now, Wachashua Shteya was taking photos as well. Okay, so these two individuals knew that he was my traveling companion. The other group, like I'd already introduced them to him, so you know he was totally comfortable with that. But see, the thing is he didn't really understand that ⁓ the relationship the victims had with each other and how the two women were turning against the other group. Again, lateral violence, again, different stages of healing. And efforts were made to reassure the other survivors that it was okay for them to attend the sentencing, that any complaints lodged against them are unfounded. It's an open court. They can come in. Nobody can stop them because the two wanted the woman not to come into the courtroom. Now, why I'm saying this is like that could have happened to me. They could have said, we don't want Marina Crane in the courtroom because she said these things about my mother on TikTok. They could have easily done that. But I truly believe because I was with Vachashto Vashtey and he was taking pictures that again, of the supposedly... what it might take for them to have public media attention, like bad press, bad press, I was protected. And ⁓ again, I wasn't had any intentions of going back on the 27th. And I told what just wish day I said, I've changed my mind. I'm I'm not going to see you on ⁓ like live stream for the sentencing. I'm going to go there. I'm going to go there. I I truly believe the the victims need me there to support them. I said, I just feel that I said because they were so broken hearted when it was delayed and it just broke my heart to see that young girl crying because she wanted this over and done with. Like how many years? 14 years of just trying to get justice for herself. So that's what I told Wachasta Wasteh, I'm going down there. So when we went there, again, ⁓ the sentencing, everything went well. After the sentencing, Wachasta Wasteh and myself went downstairs. Now the victims, victim services and the other survivors, they were all pulled aside before and after the sentencing. And it was at that time when they're sort of saying goodbye to each other that ⁓ the one who had housed and loan money to the other victim and her mother, they went to the mom and they said, well, could you pay us the loan back? And things just exploded. She got mad. apparently, she didn't have the money to pay. And again, there was already tension ahead of time. And again, too, they were projecting all that anger towards this other group of survivors. So afterwards, I was eating with them, again, you know, messages were coming in from victim services and they were just saying, you know, whatever, whatever this these two women were trying to do against the other group, that it was okay. They were, you know, processing stuff and they were trying to make it look like they're at peace because it would be bad. It would be bad for news coverage and everything to know that they were they were fighting amongst the survivors. But what happened even afterwards, like I came back about maybe three or four days later, I get a call from New Mexico. And I had seen a lot of the posts, ⁓ like some posts happening from the victim. And she called me and she just told me just the lateral violence she was going through with these two people, even after the sentencing. Like, I thought, no wonder why people don't want to take anything to court. Even when you're trying... Yeah, it's not one thing. It's too dangerous. Yes, in all, the whole scheme of it. Like the whole scheme of it. I don't know why, for my own case, I know what I went through with my family and with just people in my community. I just felt like I was all alone. I tried to, I made sure I had some support in place. And I hadn't talked with Wachash to Wachate. I just on the 27th, like I just, you know, said my goodbyes. ⁓ I never told them about the like how things were progressing in terms of that little fraction of survivors and the turmoil that we're creating for each other. And I didn't tell them about things that were happening within my own life, in my community. Again, the lateral violence. So it's, you know, it's tragic because aren't we all there to support each other? You would hope. Well, see, that's the thing. When I'm doing this podcast and I'm trying to talk about lateral violence and saying to people, don't give up, know, document. reported to the police and and yet even once they reported to the police just the angst just the the reality of what like what Like the the you really have to have a good support system in place Because you just don't know how people are gonna react to you or how they're gonna engage with you as you're trying to heal I mean, call it a phenomena. I don't know what to call it, but it just it's just been overwhelming. And the fact that I don't know, maybe this empty feeling I have is like, like I thrived on that. And now I don't thrive on it. I don't know. I just feel I just feel there's a void or an emptiness or some sort of like what's missing. Something's missing. But yet I know I know I'm never alone. You know, I know whatever I needed to do in terms of like, what chastewash day he says, I have closure. And I said, I said, so do I, I have closure. And the fact like, okay, you know, he's off on doing whatever he needs to do the same with me, I have my own life. But, but, but yet it's almost like a bittersweet type of But the reality, this was a high profile case. When I first started this blog, I just saw Nathan Chasing Horse as a washed up actor. know, 30 year old washed up actor. I didn't think that when he was arrested, it was going to get such media attention. I sort of knew in the sense that, you know, it was it made news just like anything would make news in Calgary. But but I think it's the the reality of just how many people he victimized and how many districts, how many authorities, you know, police authorities are still after him. Like that's I think that's the critical thing that people got to understand, because. One of the liaisons here asked me, he do you think it was because he was an ⁓ actor? And I said, no. I said, I think there are a lot of ⁓ Indigenous people who are hungry for spiritual growth. I think a lot of them have mental health issues. ⁓ They can't go to therapy or they don't have the access to therapists. gravitated to spiritual ways of knowing, but the reality of it is like they they gravitated to a total stranger. Like how can people trust a total stranger? See even even for me with Vachashto Vashtey, ⁓ you know had to have a degree of trust, you know, because you know because he's not of my culture. But yet, even when Nathan Chasing Horse came here too, to what extent did I have to trust him? And I tell people, I was a technician. I didn't give this man tobacco at all. Because I understand how serious it is to give somebody tobacco. You have to be quite honest about your intent and your feelings to even accept it. And that's why when people say, ⁓ well, he was a spiritual leader, like, come on. If he's a spiritual leader, didn't your gut tell you not to give him tobacco? But you did anyway. And then again, a lot of these indigenous people were either in foster homes, lived in urban areas, never have disconnection from their indigenous communities, have disconnection to the land. He just went in there and brought his own culture, his own ideologies, his own ways of thinking, and totally manipulated them. I think the majority of Indigenous people are questioning, well, why did I gravitate to the Sioux way of spiritual belief? I'm Pueblo, I'm Navajo, I'm a coastal Indian, I'm Mi'kmaq. You know, like really, I think this whole scenario ought to have some reflection on Indigenous communities to say, look, what is your spiritual practice? Who do you trust? You should trust how your parents raised you or how your grandparents raised you or how your community ⁓ helps you heal, how your community helps you grieve, how your community helps you celebrate. How come people don't understand that as a trust, the basis of trust, which to me is very critical. Yeah, I think it's exactly that. That people are too disconnected. There's so many people that are disconnected. They're just not. Like it's almost that the common sense side of that argument isn't really. aren't noticing it until they reflect. Well, it's not coming out as a natural kind of thing to. Well, it's like ⁓ talking to my cousin. I said to her, you know, she was saying about, like again, the two groups were saying that I was following Nathan Chasing Horse. I'm going, no, I'm supporting the victims. And I told my cousin, I said, it's the same thing. 20 years ago, people just thought I was ⁓ chasing after Nathan Chasing Horse. I said, know, ⁓ the infatuation or the limerence or the, or what they call it, the fawning. Like this whole ⁓ trauma-based ⁓ narrative on at what point and what stage of healing is an individual. If they're open-minded enough or if they can't grasp it or they haven't processed stuff. And she made a statement, she says, well, you know, well, Marina, you found him attractive. I said, you've got to understand, can't turn ⁓ on and off like a light switch your libido. And she says, well, Marina, and I'm going, no, listen. I said, can you turn, do you have a switch in your brain that turns off your menstrual period? Like. How much more realistic, like when I talk about community and how community like, like that's just like our libido. We can't turn it off and on. We live in the community. We're connected to the land. I'm explaining to my cousin. I said, when you're heterosexual, you can't, you're libido, you don't have a light switch to turn off and on. How you process it and ⁓ how you have conversation or whole space for those feelings with other human beings is a natural process. I said, it's ⁓ I said, it's psychology 101. When we're first studying psychology, the instructor says, there are people, there are adults who think about having sex with children. But it's just a thought, so it's not, there's no action to it. It's just a thought. know, nobody knows it's a thought unless they're actually talking to somebody about that thought. But when that thought turns into action and they do it, that's when it becomes unforgivable. So I'm saying to my cousin, I said, it's the same thing about human attraction. I said, it's a thought. You can't turn it off and on. I said, but if you act on it, then you have to face the consequences. I said, it's the same thing like within the community. You have all these resources and people. they're ⁓ like a natural collective and holistic approach. You you can't turn it off and on, it's just there. But if you step outside of the community to someone like Nathan Chasing Horse, then it becomes dangerous. Because then again, you're trusting somebody who should not be trusted. It's the same thing like when you talk about somebody you're attracted to. If you know when you're having a dialogue and you're open-minded and you have some discourse with that individual, you will determine if there are red flags or green flags. But a lot of ⁓ women who've lived in ⁓ terrible relationships, they just say, well, they're slim pickings. Isn't there, And I'm going, yes, they're slim pickings. Well, what about you, Marina? And I'm going... You have to be open-minded, I told you. Like, how? I'm an elder and I'm talking to another elder. How insane is that? You think like, you know, like people are depending on us to know how we operate sexually and yet here I am having these conversations. And I'm going, no, you gotta be, you gotta keep your spidey senses alert and alive. You have to understand there are good people out there. If you're closed up, you're closed up. said, for me, when I've talked to Indigenous women who have just been, they're so closed. I said to my cousin, said, a lot of Indigenous women are just so saturated with the fact that they've been around bad men who've been violent or who've been not faithful, having an affair after affair. I said, so you're saturated with that. I said, so your spidey senses are shut down. nervous system because I try to talk about that too in terms of like when you're growing up and how your nervous system is attached to your sexuality and anyway there's a whole process of healing I'm trying to explain to my cousin I said I said you know you I said when when people get together and they and their partners I said sometimes they they separate they get a divorce not because infidelity They just realize that they're not happy and they've grown apart. But the narrative in Indigenous communities is that's not the case. The majority of the cases are just infidelity or violence. So how do we come across and educate Indigenous communities about trafficking when that trafficking is so the... and the violence of it is so attached to an everyday way of living, especially when there's so much violence and infidelity within the community. And that the older women ⁓ have shut down to the point where they're not really ⁓ able to be there for someone who's being trafficked. Like that's the bottom line, I think. I think that's probably the crux of why I feel as empty as I do. You know, I've been saying, you know, don't give up. You know, there are good people out there. But I feel sometimes that I'm just saying it and I'm all by myself saying it. I think that's the grieving part of the reality of just what's not there for our children or even our young people. Like if I was doing a play-by-play, that would be my... I can't even imagine. ⁓ you ⁓ still need to know that you've made a difference. work. I mean, well, you've experienced it. I mean, you've been doing it for decades and things have changed, but so slowly. And it'll probably take generations for like this conversation today not to happen in the future. Right? For this to be shocking instead of it's still in such a place of like shame and complete denial. And I would say, I mean, that's across the board. There's much more complexity within indigenous communities, but it is, you know, human trafficking. When do you ever hear that even like in the mainstream news or anywhere, nobody talks about it. if people could even put a few sentences together about what is trafficking, what is it? ⁓ It's So can understand your, I was gonna say something else too about like you feeling kind of empty, but. about things and what your next steps are. because it's such do the work, but it's going to. You know, well, hopefully he stays in jail. knows what the hell. I think you're... Motivation is going to change a bit. You don't yet know what that looks like. Did I lose you? No, no. Okay. It just went really staticky there, so I wasn't sure if I lost you. No, no. I'm just peeling up an orange. feeling empty I guess. ⁓ Joanne and I were having a discussion with Reg about And he's like, I've been saying this stuff for 30 years and nobody's listening. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I also hope that fucker never gets out of jail. It's just so... You know, all the victims and... will they be able to cut up their own closure right? Yes he's been sentenced but If he can appeal, like that just is... The system is messed up when that... Well, I think too, like in terms of the victims and the lateral violence they're exchanging with each other, I think that's normal. Yeah. Because like they haven't had any therapies. Again, I think the whole ⁓ mental, what do call the health system in the United States is very flawed. Unless you have medical insurance, you don't have access to therapists. And ⁓ like I know the issue was they can apply in terms of ⁓ victim services for $5,000. And even then, ⁓ Nathan's lawyer was saying, well, that's bribery. Like any pathetic argument, how, mean, grasping at straws, like, hello, haven't they been victimized enough? Even like if you go on YouTube and you listen to what the lawyer says about, what, traveling medicine shows, like really degrading arguments about Native spirituality. It's just horrific that in this day and age that you have a lawyer having the audacity to use as an argument for a mistrial. Yeah. ⁓ I just, In some ways I'm grateful I'm Canadian. Don't let the separatists of Alberta hear me say that. ⁓ But the reality of just ⁓ Indigenous peoples in Canada is such a different narrative than the United States. I'm really grateful that I've had such opportunities in my life. But the thing is, I paid my dues. I've sacrificed as much as I humanly could sacrifice. to get my story and the stories of my parents and my grandparents, the stories of my community out there. For so long, we have colonial ways of thinking to keep us quiet, like victims. Really, I think society as a whole enables trafficking because they don't want us to talk about anything. They still want to suppress our narrative. Yeah, well, because if everyone knows about it, then we have to do something about it. Yes. See, part of truth and reconciliation to what I gave what Shosh to Washteya was a gift. Yeah. And I did say to him, now that you've witnessed the injustice, you are obligated now to tell the truth of what you saw. Yeah. And that's the reality of it. Like you said, it's going to take decades for things to change and it's going to happen little by little. Even if Wachashoshte doesn't understand the whole context of his participation. See, my cousin says, ⁓ well, he went down there because it's his job. And I said, no, he didn't. I said, he wasn't working. I told my cousin, I said, I asked you if you wanted to come with me to Las Vegas. I said, since Nathan Chasinghorse was arrested, I've asked so many people that they could come with me. And I said, out of the blue, he chose to come. I said, the fact that without me knowing it, just his presence. See, again, privilege. I mean, I might be making fun of it, but I said to him, you're just fortunate that I have white uncles. You know the very fact if he was indigenous, I don't think I would have had that kind of protection Like it's almost like, know, like ⁓ like I don't think he gets it But i'm I was trying to explain it in my podcast Even even too when when it was aired on the fifth estate Why why did the fifth estate have a bigger impact than say something say ⁓ in investigative journalists from from aptn Well, the reason is because of white privilege Yeah. The arrogance of white privilege has its purpose. And as much as I could educate Wachashutwa state in that, to say, you're a cohort, you're an ally, you witnessed this. From your point of privilege, now you have to say, no, I see it. I see what white privilege has done. Which is very uncomfortable. But yet he chose that. Yeah, good. mean, that's how change happens. But yet the two ladies that I put boundaries down, I never told them that I had a traveling companion coming with me to Las Vegas. They just thought I went by myself. So I can't even comprehend what they would have said or done if they knew I had somebody with me. I think the narrative would have changed completely. I wouldn't have seen them for what they represent. Yeah. I just didn't know the dynamics. just didn't. It's like one thing to know that Nathan Chasing Horse is serving life. It's another thing to know that I released my niece's spirit. It's another thing to know like, okay, ⁓ I'm still gonna be advocating for victims of violence. I'm still gonna be talking about my life and people in my community and things that affect me. indirectly or directly and how change needs to happen. First within Indigenous communities and our people, our own people showing us respect. And what does respect look like? And how do we honour survivors? How do we define healing within our communities? So things like that I feel I positive about, I feel engaged or like a catalyst, but at the same time too, like my friend in Montreal, says, Marina, did you ever think that all this would happen? I said, she says, look at, look at all the people you've met in the past three years. just, you know, like, that's like, it's sad. don't, I don't know how to explain it. It's like, It's not like it's over, it's just... It's different, it's not over. It's just going to be different. Yes, I, ⁓ It's like I had blinders on before and I don't anymore. I don't know how to explain it, it's just the dynamics of it. But I have to be more ⁓ protective of my boundaries and like my heart, my emotions. I, you know, it's like realizing I can't take that for granted anymore. Not that I literally didn't, but just the people that I befriended that I thought were, you know, that respected me, but aren't there... They're not there emotionally. The way you thought they would be. After I spent so much time talking to them, thinking... thinking I was being heard and when I wasn't. Yeah. Yeah, so it's been a process just trying to like let go. ⁓ I mean, even when I was approached by the Fifth Estate, I was still saying daily prayers of embracing and releasing. So I knew there was a process I had to go through every day. And now that everything is over, it's like, OK, You my mind is saying, did this, you've been practicing it, you've been embracing and releasing it. You're still gonna do that, it's just changed. Like you said, it's different, but it's still the same in some ways. It's just evolved into something different. I think, like when we're talking and I'm hearing you talk to me, When I'm there in the public and I'm talking to people in general, quite a few people get what I'm saying. But I know there's going to be a majority who are shut down, who have refused to be open about things that I will never be able to reach. Like I said, in the courtroom, when he's standing there, when Nathan Chor is chasing horses, there, saying he's innocent, denying all the horrific things he did to children, the reality is that, ⁓ it's just horrific. Like, what does it take? What does it take to stop him? What did it take to stop him? People confronted him for decades and he's still standing in court saying he's innocent. Like that's what's so horrible. That's what's so horrific is that he's going to be locked up for the rest of his life because no matter what comes out of his mouth, his intention is still to hurt children. He is so enmeshed. He's evolved into this thing. You just like I like I said, I the reality of the fact is when I met him, he'd already been perpetrating. He had to have been for a decade, at least a decade or more. That's that's really like he's he's he's turning 50. I think I think he's going to be 50 this month or he's already 50. He'll be eligible to apply for parole when he's what? 37 years. 87. OK. If he's not dead, it's more than. Yeah, but. That's the grieving part of it. I mean, he's a human being. Every life that Creator has made is precious. The fact that my grieving is the fact that He chose to create this life that He's living. He chose to hurt people. He chose to hurt the most innocent. I can't... The fact that I've been in his presence 20 years ago? Uh-huh. See, that's what really disturbs me is that so many people who met him would embrace him and they would not release him. And I'm going, no, no, no, no, no. Didn't you see? Couldn't you? Weren't there red flags? What is it that you didn't see? Like that's what's so scary is that there are so many people out there like him. Part of the podcast I did with another group was ⁓ the reality that trying to educate Indigenous people about trafficking is so hard to ⁓ convey the message or for them to understand trafficking. Like for them to disclose or talk about it, it's like pulling teeth. And it shouldn't be, especially when young people are depending on us to help them, be present for them. I don't know what the answer is. I just know that as much as I can do my podcast or put it out there that as an elder, I'm doing this. As an elder, I'm out there trying to be an example for other Indigenous people that they can do it too. That it's not something foreign that you have to be ashamed of. It's not something foreign where, you know, like, oh, my community is so poor. No. You know, we have a right to exist. We have a right to choose how we choose to live. Whether or not people agree with it or disagree with it, you know, we do have a right. I'm just, like I said, it's... There's an emptiness in me. I don't know how long it's going to last. I'm hoping it's not depression or anything like that. just it's just the reality of ⁓ so much time and effort went into just going there and being present and trying to hold space for people in my community who didn't even want space. That you know, that's the sad part of it. On top of that too, I have two nephews who are really unhealthy. They're in the hospital. I have immediate family, three of them who are not well, all in one family. ⁓ gosh. Sorry Marina. It's just our community too. We're having them death. We're having death at least once a week. It's, you know, it's not a, like I said, we have no choice, you know, we can't switch it on and off. But I know a lot of people when it comes to talking about death and dying, it's so strange to them. But, you know, when you live with it, and you feel for your people, you have to... ⁓ Like I said with this podcast and even talking with you, this is part of my empowerment. This is part of like embracing it and releasing it. Because people are depending on me, just like they're depending on you in various things that we do on a daily basis. And we have to go through ⁓ this, we'll call it ritual and ceremony of sharing our feelings. Hello! I'm doing good. I'll see you tomorrow. Yes you will. to here for a meeting. was driving while chatting with you, Marina. I know. Okay. Appreciate it. You all have a good one. We will. Okay. See you.