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"The Principles of Hardcore Humanism" with Dr. Mike · Caught on the Mike...

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: Stop taking that.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: Listen to a discussion is advised.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you've been a regular listener of this podcast since it started, you are well aware of how much focus has been placed on COVID-19 in the last year and the impact that it has had, not only in how we socialize, but on our overall mental health.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: The other aspect of this show that I've been really proud about is the ever-changing challenge of self-improvement, not only for me, but for you, our listeners.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: My next guest is a clinical psychologist, an executive coach, who trains in the martial arts, and he finds time to sing in a heavy metal band.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: He's also a fellow podcaster and host the show Hardcore Humanism with Dr.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Mike, sporting a very impressive roster of names you will all recognize.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very excited to welcome Dr.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Michael Friedman to the show today.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Ladies and gentlemen, this is Caught on the Mike.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Mike, how the hell are you, my friend?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: I am doing well, sir.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm fantastic.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm fantastic.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: We were just chatting a few minutes ago about uh where we're at on this planet.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: You're calling in from New Jersey.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm calling or I'm calling you from Lincoln, Nebraska.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: So uh things are good where we're at, right?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Worlds are colliding.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm gonna kind of frame this real quick.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: You are a clinical psychologist, you're an executive coach, you're a contributor to psychology today in your column brick by brick.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: You train in the martial arts and you find time to sing in a band.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Are you still singing in a band?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I actually have a new project now that is a more extreme metal project.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I I am uh technically starting to, it's been it's been, I would say, I don't know if it's been 10 years quite, that it might not be quite that long, but since I've worked on anything specific, and now now we got something going on with a buddy of mine up the block who uh introduced me to clutch, actually.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, nice.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: So he uh we were at the bus stop and uh he had this like you know with our kids, and he had this look on his face.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like, What happened to you?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are you?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: And he just goes, Clutch.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I was like, Clutch, what?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: I go, You clutch clutching what like I'm totally unfamiliar with the situation.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, clutch is coming to town.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I said to him, I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about, but I have to find out.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna interview, I'm gonna interview clutch at this point.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know it was gonna be Neil Fallett.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I'm going to interview Clutch, and you're gonna give a fan quote because I gotta figure out what is this that is making a middle-aged father, you know, like like this, like giddy like this.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we did that, and and then eventually I actually interviewed uh Jesse from Kill Switch and Gage, and they had clutch was opening for them at a show down in Asbury Park, and I was like, we we gotta go.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I had and I saw Clutch for the first time, and it was the only show that I've ever been to where we were walking along the boardwalk and there were people in clutch shirts, like in droves, like you never see that where people wear the shirt.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, something's and can I tell you, it was all the hype was absolutely deserved.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, this is this is it, man.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like, this is exactly what I need in my life.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I told Neil that story when we interviewed for the podcast uh this past year.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, dude, I was like, the magic is so well deserved, like the effect that they have on people.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, so so we we after you know, we we we did so then we started being like, we should just do something, it's the pandemic, you know, and now now we're we're meddling.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm doing more extreme metal than I think I've ever done before.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny because my uh wife's cousin, he was just over here the other day and he collects vinyl, and you know, I'm into vinyl too.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, what have you picked up recently?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And he goes, I just picked up the entire clutch discography on vinyl.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Well shit, there you go, man.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, that's totally money well spent.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Although I must say that as good as they are um on their recordings, uh, live is just is just where they they really like I feel like they separate themselves.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they really get, you know, someone asked me like uh a while back, like, what's my favorite kind of music?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I never really understood.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then about 20 years ago, I saw Bruce Springsteen on The Rising Tour.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And this guy was like, he must have been his late 50s with the Rock Roll Hall of Fame, millions of dollars.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: He's got he's playing in giant stadium where he's a god, and I swear this guy goes out and plays the show like he's 17 years old, and if he doesn't get it right, he's not making it out of his parents' basement in Jersey.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now, when people say, like, what kind of music you like?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I like that kind of music.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: I like the kind of music where the artist understands how sacred this moment is, whether it's 50,000, 100,000, two people, they get how important this moment is.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: If you are that, that's the kind of music that I want to hear.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care what the genre is, I just want to have that feeling like I am sharing this important moment and clutch 100%.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like Neil, Neil, just they just they just get it.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: I just as soon as I heard it, I was like, oh man, you guys just get it 100%.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like they know how to be have fun without being silly, you know what I mean?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Without making it like kind of like a like a like a joke, like they don't parody themselves, even though they do a lot of like, you know, they keep that, you know, like the that and it's it's in the sound too.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like they keep that that heavy blues bass in the sound that just is like, okay, yeah.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, no, no need, no need to tell me anything further.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: I get it.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm yours.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Do with me what you want.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like I loved it.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, so we're like, let's make let's make music together.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned you've interviewed a few of these people.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, what I want to talk about a little bit is your show, your podcast, Hardcore Humanism with Dr.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Mike.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: You have an impressive array of people that you've interviewed for this show.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: I just listened to the Jacoby Shattocks episode last night.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: My wife was out of town, and that was such a it was such a timely episode.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I know, I know you'd recorded it a while back, but it was such a timely episode and things of of relevance in regard to that.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: So explain to our listeners what the philosophy of hardcore humanism is.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Hardcore humanism is uh it's a little bit of a play on hardcore punk.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so, but there's like there's kind of a double meaning there.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's based basically on humanistic psychology.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and one of the things that I found very kind of both interesting but at times disturbing about how I saw a lot of psychology playing out was that it always seemed as though there was kind of like, this is why you're crazy.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, maybe you have a cognitive distortion, or you have an irrational thought, or you have uh unconscious conflict, or you have a you know, a biological abnormality or whatever.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was always always like something that was like, this is why uh this person is not well.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I'm very respectful of all those.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that everybody takes that perspective, but and I'm obviously like, you know, people come at it from different ideas, et cetera.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I never really felt comfortable with it because I always felt like it was a little bit more stigmatizing of people who struggle with mental health issues.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the only um, the only approach that really was seemed very much against that was humanistic psychology, where the idea was that, you know, people are good, people want to grow, people, you know, and our job is to kind of pull the weeds away from what gets in their way of being, you know, their their best and actualized self.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, so I think that over time, one of the things that that I found from playing music, and you know, just sort of how that filled me up and kind of invigorated me was that it it all of the musicians kind of seemed to have four steps that they always took, which was number one, when the whole world told them to go right, they decided to go left.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, everyone's like, you should get a quote unquote real job, you should be a lawyer, you should be this, you that.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, no, um, I'm this is this is this is how I want to dress, this is what I want to listen to, this is how I want to live my life.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And they found a purpose in music.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they worked super, super hard.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, even the bands that that you know got labeled as being like party bands, whatever, when you start to scratch below the surface, these are people who are working nonstop at their craft, at promotion.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then they built a community around to support themselves.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: So those four steps of basically like pulling away all the barriers and the judgments that society puts on people so that you can find your purpose and work to achieve it and build a community that supports that.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's the that's the essence of what we try to do with hardcore humanism as a therapy uh and coaching program.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's kind of like hardcore humanism because it's like, well, humanism, you're gonna be empathic, we're gonna be more empathic.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna be open-minded, we're gonna be more open-minded.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna even think bigger about what you could do, and we're gonna help you work really hard.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna use, I was, you know, trained in more behavioral uh approaches.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna use also behavioral approaches to help you get that.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: We're not just gonna say, hey, you have some ideas, great, we're gonna help you do it.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then it's also a little bit of a nod to the humanism of some of these subgenres that have been maligned, you know, whether it's metal or hip-hop or hardcore, you know, there's there's these situations where the world rejected those approaches, they those cultures, those people.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they just kind of said, well, okay, we're if you don't you don't accept us in your world, we're gonna build a world of our own.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you take those three genres and they've together, you know, influenced everything, you know, and to an extent.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have even like people who are more popular mainstream artists, like somebody like Post Malone is is doing things with Aussies, like, you know, when when he has a chance, you know, doing, you know, a whole night of Nirvana covers.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you think about Nirvana's history with the Melvins and Dave Grohl coming out of DC hardcore, and you're like, yeah, you know, whether it's Duff McKagan and uh, you know, coming from hardcore and being Guns N' Roses or William Duval now and Allison Chains, Pearl Jam, uh, you know, guys coming from Green River, um, you know, Flea coming from uh fear.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think Flea came from fear.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: I might I might have that wrong, but whatever hardcore band he was in, you know, even anything in rock, hip hop is obviously taken over, and metal is huge now.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I just I just have so much admiration for people who are able to withstand that pressure and be who they are.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I want the people who I work with to experience, whether or not it's to be okay with the fact that they struggle with mental illness or because of the things that they want to do or who they want to be.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I see my job as starting like or helping them like on that process, like helping them on that journey.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I love, you know, and so I the podcast is really designed to just put as many people in front of everyone that have gone through that, and hopefully people hear it, you know, somebody like Jacoby, like, you know, I Jacoby's fantastic.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this I think that was like the third time I've met with him.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And every time I come out being like, man, this guy, you know, just being willing to talk about like slipping up his sobriety, right?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't have to, he doesn't, he doesn't have to do that.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like he's he's already him.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like he's he's you know, he doesn't have to to step out like that and and and share that kind of a painful detail in his life.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, how many people are probably also slipped with their addiction during the pandemic who are now baby say, you know, something maybe I maybe I will get help, you know, like I'm not gonna just keep it a secret, you know.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I don't have to be ashamed of it.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, that to me is like the biggest win.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like I love talking to the people, I love like having the conversations, you know.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: I get something out of it.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I hope people are entertained by it and like love the conversations, but the real, real big win is if someone then walks away and is like, I'm gonna do something different, you know, because I heard you know that conversation with Jacoby.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna, I'm I'm gonna maybe start my path to sobriety.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like that to me is like when people write and like email and say that that's what happened for them.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh man, this is just like this is just so cool, you know, because we have a lot to learn from our rock stars that I don't think we do, quite frankly.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and a lot of the people that you've mentioned are kind of gatekeepers of these subgenres and and their own little movements, but they're also very transparent and um not afraid to be vulnerable.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that makes them stronger thought leaders.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: And correct me if I'm wrong, but you know, just being out in the open about that, and that's something that's changing in society as a whole, if I'm not mistaken.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I think musicians are um, you know, I'm gonna be writing something about that later in the week, I think.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's like musicians, I think, are such powerful mental health advocates because they went through the process that we were just talking about, but they've also spent their lives exploring the depths of their experience and and figuring out a way to share it, you know.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, listen, I like to think that as a as a psychologist, that I, you know, help as you know, many people as I can, and hopefully a few even feel like they they've been quote unquote saved to a degree, but like, you know, how many people have been saved by their favorite album?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that that that album or that band when like you know, you're like alone and you're a kid or your teenager, even as an adult, and you feel like no one gets you and no one understands what you're going through.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you listen to an album, and you're kind of like, I don't even know exactly what they're saying.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: I may not even know all the words, but like I just there's something that connects, and just knowing that there's someone out there who you can connect with, even if it's someone you don't know, can be the difference.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I I personally think obviously there's not studies on this, but I think that's the difference a lot of times between people living or dying.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can't you can't run that study correctly, obviously.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, but but I think that just like you think like how many people have been saved by music, whether from playing it or or just being fans or whatever it is.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, to me, I kind of feel like have we learned everything we can from from from our musicians?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I I haven't, like personally, right?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so I feel like if I get the chance, I will, you know, I want to know how they do things in in whatever way they feel comfortable, you know.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that that to me is it feels like it's just so much, it's so enjoyable.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's such a privilege.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, then getting a chance to like talk to somebody like you about it, just like ah, this is just the whole thing just feels really good.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's different lanes on the same highway, but uh another class of people that I think fall in the same category are martial artists and fighters as well, because there's a certain level of discipline that comes with being vulnerable and being transparent about where your your mental state is.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I'm I'm a huge UFC guy, like I can I can talk about mixed martial arts the way most people talk about their favorite football team.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, coming off of a year like 2020 and COVID-19, that was the only sport that was running there for a while.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it got elevated, and some of these fighters got elevated in the process.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think musicians and fighters do kind of carry similar, I don't want to say baggage, but a lot of life experience, and uh that that proves very helpful to the rest of us when we hear that, because we can point our finger and say, hey, I can relate to that.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: I went through that same exact thing, and it somewhat normalizes these feelings that are otherwise abnormal to us.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that one of the things though that's very tough.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, so for example, um, if you look at almost any study of music therapy, you know, or art therapy, it all shows that people have better mental and physical well-being from it.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's like, you know, getting enough sleep, drinking water, vegetables, exercise, and like doing something creative.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's that, it's that robust and and ridiculously consistent, you know, finding.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, you know, when you listen to a lot of, and the same thing with exercise, it's like, you know, getting a half hour, an hour of exercise um is so amazing, especially if you find something like um, like whether I've in the past taken taekwondo or Brazilian jujitsu, it's just it's so fun.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: But but one of the things that I think is tough is that but that's different than being someone who's got something bursting out of you that's so overwhelming and so uncontrollable that it needs to come out in like whether it's in creativity or in like competitive, you know, like like like I don't, you know, as an example, like have any sort of sense of like a desire to like dominate someone or to be the best in that kind of a way, you know, especially to the extent of being better than someone.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like I would, I would much rather like instead of like a fight, you know, like I would just rather be like, let's like train together and both come out of it feeling like it was great, and like who who cares?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like so, but but I think that what then happens is that people who are musicians or UFC fighters when they struggle, I think that there is a disconnect because I think that, and it's I I think it's an unfortunate one because you know, I've often said we have this like kind of abusive relationship with our rock stars, and I think it's similar for our UFC fighters, like we cheer them on as they're winning and we feel good in their glow, but then we kind of if they slip, or like, you know, it's kind of like, oh, you're you know, you're great, you're great, you're great, but like you, you know, you you did something after the bell.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're like uh total, it's like, you know, or you you took performance-enhancing drugs.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not I'm not condoning any of those behaviors, but what I am sort of suggesting is that like, you know, we sort of cheer people on right until they get to the point where they make a mistake, which is almost entirely predictable based on what's being nurtured, you know what I mean?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then we just turn and then we then they get you know destroyed in the media or by fans.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, I personally feel like that's such a dangerous thing because what it's what I feel like it's teaching all of us is that go for like, you know, go go for what you want, but if you slip up, you're gonna be like an outcast in some ways.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of feel like it's it's teaching people to not really go for their dreams.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I I wish and I think that there is becoming more compassion, more empathy, and more um understanding of as these people share their stories about like how hard they work and how like how much they have to go through and like playing in pain.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And a musician's life is is horrible.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you really look at I mean it's it's almost singularly designed to destroy mental and physical health.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, tra if I if I were gonna destroy someone's mental and physical well-being, I would make them a touring musician, especially at like lower levels where you're like, you know, you're living, you're staying in like not as great, you know, traveling in a van, like, you know, you're you're you don't have the amenity, you know, it's just and being a being a UFC fighter is worse in some ways because you have all of the the potential head trauma.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so it's like if I mean, and and I think that if we're gonna cheer people on, I I think this is very much the same with uh with hockey.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like if we're gonna cheer on, you know, our our enforcers, then like we gotta think about like, well, what is what's happening?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are we cheering on and how are we taking care of them afterwards?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, you know, these are adults, they they make their own choices, but something wrong there that I'm hoping as more people come out and share their stories, people like, hey, you know, like could we do this a little bit differently?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Could we cheer on people when they're we're doing like what we hope for, but then maybe not be a little bit more understanding and sort of appreciative, like, hey, you know, you, you, you like, you know, obviously not if they're like hurting people or something like that, but if they're struggling with depression or they're struggling with addiction or they're you know, they're they're they find themselves not having as much money, you know, because they they they spent it all and they didn't realize it.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: Just sort of be like, well, just, you know, these people gave us a lot.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like you don't have to, you don't have to like, you know, give money or give whatever, but just, but maybe just not write like a horrible thing on a, you know, on a website about them or like, you know, whatever, like just something to like let them know, like, hey, we appreciate the whole person, the whole journey, you know, not just like when you're doing well.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, then I'm hoping like then people will feel more empowered to go to go searching for what they want in the world because they're not afraid if they slip up that everybody's gonna, you know, just like laugh at them or or or you know whatever, like, you know, kind of destroy them.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And this is going to sound like a ridiculous comparison, but a a very good exercise in seeing this play out in real time is pro wrestling.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Especially especially pro wrestling in the age of the internet.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: The fans will demand that a pro wrestler and I'm talking like WWE type type wrestling, fans will demand that a a pro wrestler gets put over or pushed to the top.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then once that wrestler gets to the top, the WWE, the AEW, whatever wrestling organization gives the fans what they want, the fans immediately shit on the guy that they were trying to push to the top.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's really crazy to see that play out in real time.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it kind of aligns with what you were saying is we do really have to think about the the long-term outcome.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Don't ask for something if you don't truly want it, you know well it's also just I think it's looking at people as a whole human being.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the things that I do like about more uh musicians and and UFC fires like stepping up and talking about like the totality of them as a human being.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that then it's sort of again like when you dehumanize someone it's easy to shit all over them.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And when you humanize someone, you know, look there's a lot of people out there who are like in in different arenas they like you know like people who like worked their whole lives and like work three jobs so that they could you know afford college and then like for some reason you know maybe had to drop out and then if everybody was like oh you know like okay so we're gonna you look at you you like you thought you're so great whatever and you know you couldn't make it and it's sort of like no like that's not that's not what we should do.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: We should we should be like you know kind of encouraging people and congratulating them on what they did and then be like hey if you're struggling like how can we help you?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know it's like it's not it's you know it's it's it's it's wonderful.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I like what I do both professionally as a psychologist and then kind of semi-professionally but mostly amateur as a you know podcaster or writer it's like I I I just love the idea of being in that let's look at you as a whole human being and let's like just figure out how to make this work.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like here's a way of looking at yourself.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know you look at yourself in terms of like there's shame and there's like things that you don't like and whatever.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like okay you're allowed to have that but maybe here's a little bit of a different perspective and can we pull away again all those weeds that get in the way of you feeling like here's my purpose in life and I'm I'm gonna go for it.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And even if it and even if I don't get it like all the way so what like how many you know like like how many people spent their lives wanting to be like a professional athlete and it's like wherever you land in that you know there's still ways of of that you know living in you like in some ways and playing out in your life and you know just I hope more and more people like listen to you know these different the musicians fighters whoever they are and they're kind of like all right you know I I see myself a little bit I can maybe I'll take a shot you know and even if I don't do it as much as I want or it doesn't work as well it's it's okay.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's good even, you know.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: So after a year like 2020 and the COVID-19 pandemic do you notice certain patterns emerging in behavioral health and you know psychology as a whole with some of the people that you're interacting with more like the creative types and and the people that are used to having a public persona that weren't able to have it over the course of the last year?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I I hope the biggest thing that's happening now is that people either whether the people who are struggling with mental health issues or practitioners or the public or media whatever it is sort of be like look if if if this has taught us anything it's that people's mental health issues are real.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're not based on you know always you know you know sometimes there's different things that are happening in people's lives where they are you know confusing things maybe here or there but for the most part people are just looking at real things that are happening in their lives real struggles people have real biological predispositions to get anxious or depressed or to have addiction and they have real stress in their lives and it's not always clear how to cope with it.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope that people like recognize that you know when someone has quote unquote you know like is well not quote unquote if someone's like struggles with depression it's like having diabetes or having heart disease or having asthma you know and we should think about it as like oh this is someone who's got a biological vulnerability and when there are certain stressors it it pops up and we should give people the same compassion uh that we do I hope we do to people with cancer, people with heart disease people with diabetes.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean if we don't give if if we were not giving those people compassion then that's a whole nother problem I think I think but most people are very are much more compassionate towards what they see as quote unquote physical health problems and less so towards mental health problems.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And to see you know no this is these are these are people you know in fact if you've got a mental health issue and you're still getting up every day you know like you know like like like Sean you know Sean Colvin who's a really powerful mental health advocate um and a wonderful musician you know just said like some days she just it would take everything to get from the bed to the sink you know that that was like and you know some people are being like oh why can't you do this?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think like people who have mental health issues were still getting up every day still making it to work maybe sometimes not like still trying to meet their responsibilities.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you know the the people being like oh you're weak.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like no there's there's a strength there and you know what the problem is is that we as a society haven't figured out how to help you do this.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know and so that's what I'm hoping is really going to change because so many people now unfortunately are experiencing mental health issues and maybe have an insight into how it happens you know they thought of themselves as quote unquote normal and not having any quote unquote issues.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden they find themselves like panicking and depressed and maybe like you know turning to a bottle or you know you know like there's a lot a lot of people you know jack themselves up on like caffeine and you know uh Adderall like during the day and then they you know go to bed with pot and and liquor you know and it's like and again I don't I don't judge or begrudge anyone who does that and I don't hope that people suffer so that they develop empathy but I'm hoping that one of the positive things that comes out of all of this horrific um stuff that's happening is that there is more of a sense of like this is how it happens for people.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're just seeing it a lot more concentrated you know those people who you used to think are like oh they're depressed like what's their problem why can't they get their act together?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like well a lot of us are seeing now how hard it is to get our act together you know and and that's that's what I'm really hoping is is the big changes because I because I think that we're just beginning to see the the mental health I mean there was already a mental health crisis but the pan the mental health pandemic that's coming from all of this um I don't think we've even seen the tip of there's people whose entire lives have been disrupted and they have no idea how they're going to get back into it.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed agreed uh that's you you led me into my next question perfectly because that's one of the things my my friends and I have discussed that now things are starting to return to somewhat a sense of normalcy.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're starting to get used to not wearing the masks again which has just been really weird for me personally.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'll like I'll walk out of my office and I'll start reaching in my pocket and be like oh shit oh wait I I'm vaccinated I don't got to wear this thing anymore.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: But um one of the things that we're kind of starting that we all kind of feel is like this post-pandemic blues or this post-pandemic blase feeling and we kind of wonder if it's did we acclimate our lives to the life that became as a result of COVID-19?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you know how do we all bounce back from that and I I think you you hit the nail on the head it's like it's actualizing what we just went through and maybe some of the things maybe some of the skeletons we had buried in the closet when life was quote unquote normal.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean I think that what happens is that most people don't think about what their purpose in life is.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: They just kind of you know they have some degree of you know whether it's luck or privilege or just you know something someone's looking down on them and you know smiling where they just kind of go about their lives and things happen and they're kind of like oh this feels meaningful this feels fulfilling but they're not necessarily doing it from a place of purpose.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like the difference between meaning and purpose is one is passive one is active like so meaning is like after the fact putting together like what well what does this all mean and making sense of it purpose is waking up in the morning with the intention of making certain things happen, you know, like developing or creating meaning if you will.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that what happens when things are going well, people are lucky enough that it all kind of works out sort of you know it's like but what happens when your your life is disrupted whether it's from a mental health issue or pandemic or physical health issue is that one of the first things that goes is your purpose because you you you don't you're you're in pain or whatever you don't have time to think about all of that.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so then the problem though of what happens is that when you are feeling a little bit better you don't necessarily remember to reassert your purpose in life and you don't even necessarily do it when you're not feeling well.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that what's happening for a lot of people now is they're just kind of disoriented in part because they're not sure about some very specific things like should I wear a mask should I not should I go this place should I not they're not used to interacting with people like I you know I spent a year plus not doing the things that I love to do the most which is going to clubs with tons of people packed in and listening to music or rolling around on the floor with someone like sweating all over the place with jujitsu or just walking up on the street and hugging people you know these are things that I I you know the people I know I don't just walk up to random strangers you know but like you know it's it's it's sort of um now we have to like reprogram all of that.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I still think that the number one thing that happens is like what you know like like what am I doing here?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: My whole life just got uprooted what does that mean for who I am and and and what I'm trying to do in my life and I think it's going to take people a while to say you know because what I always say to people is your purpose in life doesn't come or go.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: That you have control over.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: You don't always have control over how it manifests or how you pursue it or the processes by which you go about it, but you always can have it even if you're not working it at a certain time.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: But that's a hard thing to keep in mind when you're like well my purpose used to be my job and now I can't do my you know I my purpose in life was you know to you know create a wonderful environment for people to eat the food that I cook.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: And now I can't do that.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know my purpose used to be to play live music in front of you know fans who enjoyed it people can't do that you know on and on and on you know and so it's it's hard then to sort of figure out again not only just getting yourself settled in terms of economics and physical and mental wellbeing but then like the the that the depth of of personal kind of examination and just like okay so what do I want to do in this life and and uh I think you know people will eventually get back to thinking that way and um but that's one of the things that I think is is shattered quite frankly I mean the pandemic it does everything to shatter our purpose you know which is again a big I think another reason why the mental health crisis is just going to continue unfortunately.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and I I was going to ask if you have a general sense of optimism in the long term in the in the macro instead of the micro because it probably will get a little bit uh it'll probably get a little bit worse before it gets better I'm sure you know I'm not I'm not like a big believer quite frankly like I I think I think the like I I see optimism versus pessimism as not like a things are going to be good things are going to be bad kind of way um I think it's more just like either I I think for me it's a matter of of function.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: So in other words like if you're optimistic and therefore you don't you know I mean I I don't judge people who do things in different ways but let's say you're optimistic like oh I'm I'm gonna be okay uh so I don't have to get a vaccine wear a mask like you know it's social distancing that may that may work it it it may not but to me that's not a positive outcome if you will of optimism you know what I mean that's that's something that's a little bit of a riskier outcome and again I don't I don't judge people who make make those decisions I personally don't make those decisions whereas there might be someone who's who's more pessimistic who not only is going to be really careful about social distancing, getting a vaccine um wearing a mask but also is the kind of person who makes sure every year to get like a full blood work done and get like a checkup and go to the dentist.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so to me it's it's not a matter of are you optimistic like things are going to be good or you pessimistic you're worried things are going to be bad.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's what's the function of that behavior of that of that process in terms of what you do and then examining the outcomes and just sort of saying like okay like my system now my functional system is you know I am thinking this is who I am these are the things that I want to do and let me just look at the results and then like adjusting accordingly um so it's not the again to me it's the a big part of hardcore humanism is for lack of better saying it rejecting the sort of theories are people positive or people negative you could be like a completely pessimistic negative you think everything's gonna like not work out but that motivates you to you know work really hard and save your money and like you know make sure that your kids like you know college education was paid for like yesterday and you know always checking up on your family and a in a you know and all this kind of stuff.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you know I think that's the that I think that's a big thing that our field has uh done a little bit of a disservice is making it seem like somehow being positive or optimistic is inherently good whereas being negative or yeah I forget what I just said being optimistic or positive versus being like negative and pessimistic because it makes the people who are inherently pessimistic um not feel like they have a lane you know like you know if you want to be skeptical like whatever but within you looking just what I would encourage everyone to do is sort of like be you you know as long as you're not hurting anybody else like and just look at the results like look at the results is is are you are you living out your purpose are the things that you're saying are going to happen happening based on what you're seeing and are you are you and look at everything you know that's sometimes something that we we sometimes do like you know so um you know like a lot of people when they look at like their drinking behavior you know they don't look at everything that's happening you know they're like what what's the problem like you know I didn't do this it's like okay like if you want to drink I'm not I'm not gonna judge you for that but are you looking at every single thing that's happening like are you looking at the fact that like you know you're you're drinking when you're going out and you're kind of getting drunk and you're not meeting people who you want to be romantically connected with and you're kind of not understanding why you know that was that was something quite frankly that I I think I went through um you know and that that's how I I can see it in uh you know people who are in their their you know their teens their 20s or their 30s is you kind of like are you really sitting down thinking about like so you're you know you're you're so look you you want to meet like a significant other right and so your idea is you're gonna you know you're gonna pre-game at eight you're gonna go somewhere to a party and do shots at nine then you're gonna have drinks at 10 then you're gonna like you know like show up at a club at like 11 or 12 and like what and you're gonna meet like a stranger and then it's like okay so that's your that's your model for like meeting a significant other if if that's your model for like having a a really fun time yeah but how many people then wake up the next day and they're like I'm just so lonely and how come I didn't meet anybody and like well it's like wow like look you know so I don't judge the first part I did that for years.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I also know that I woke up a lot of times and I was sort of like God like I see all these like you know couples and they're happy like and I'm like living this like wraith like you know life.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so that that's what I would just say to you know everybody is like don't worry about are you doing things the way you should or shouldn't optimistic pessimistic if you like to do this you like to do that that's not the issue.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Just make sure that what who you are and what you're about you know that what I will always say to people is that make sure that your um your ambitions match your efforts match your evaluation so is what you want what you're doing and then how you're evaluating yourself you know like and if those things line up and you're you got a system in place then then great whatever it is but a lot of times we don't because we haven't thought it through what you're saying essentially is instead of looking at it as optimism versus pessimism look at it more like cause and effect.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah I think I think that's a very like you know to me I think one of the things that was very interesting about when I started to play music because I started to play music when I was in my 30s and one of the things that was just very interesting to me was um you know I had grown up uh in a place where the the people who were into metal or punk or goth or whatever they they were called the wallers like they would hang out at the wall behind our we had a huge wall in our high school and they would smoke and whatever and I knew some of the people but I didn't really hang out with them and I was just kind of like like what's going on there you know and um I judged not intentionally like I didn't I didn't say anything to anybody but I just in my own head I kind of judged it.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I started in my 30s I didn't realize that I you know I can't sing but I I realized like screaming came more naturally to me and I it and so I started playing that kind of music and I started dressing in black and then all of a sudden I saw how people treated me like the world kind of opened up into two different camps.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: There were people like hey cool you're doing something what is that you know and some people were like oh what are you doing?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like you know and I'm very careful that was a very powerful experience for me because people who I had known my whole life even like some were just like oh my God this is so awesome.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: Even if they didn't like the music they were just like I can't believe you're doing something different and new and good for you and I have something that I do that's different that's completely out of this realm but I want to share with you and then some people were really judgmental.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um that I think that a lot of people who like gravitate towards metal don't necessarily or you know or maybe like hardcore don't look at the world at large and think like hey everything's gonna just be great you know or even like early hip hop you know everything's gonna be great.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's like no like actually I'm looking at the world and it's not going to be great.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: But what I'm choosing to do is I'm saying I'm looking at this world it's not great.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna do something functional that's aimed at trying to make it okay for me and it may it may be even great.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that that to me is why the whole optimism pessimism thing is such a is such an important thing that everybody feels like they have a lane to live a healthy functional life and you don't have to you know if you don't think the world there's a lot of reasons not to think that the world is is great.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: So why on earth would I tell somebody like hey you need to think everything's gonna be great Great, you know, in order for it to be great.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that to me, that doesn't make any sense.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to see you doing things that optimize your chances of being the person you want to be, whatever that is.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, that's phenomenal.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's phenomenal.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: So when I let off with this interview, I said you had a very impressive roster of people that you've had the pleasure of interviewing on your show, Hardcore Humanism with Dr.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: Mike.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can find it on all the major podcast platforms.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was listening to it on Alexa last night, just for those of you that are listening along to this.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully I didn't just trigger my Alexa in the room.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: But uh who is your favorite musician to interview so far?
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know, it it's it's to be honest, like there's there it's kind of weird because I know that in theory, I'm not just saying this because I don't want to like pick someone or like whatever.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: It it really is like I feel like not, you know, obviously there's an exception here and there, but like everyone's got something that I just I just found so amazing that it's it's just different for different people, you know what I mean?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: So like you know, uh, you know, like I'm I'm I'm talking like you know, there there's and these are some of these are people who weren't like Steve.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you, like, some of these are people who weren't necessarily even on a podcast, but like Steve Albini was first person we had.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the reason why I just love interviewing Steve is because he a few years ago, the entire way I looked at the world by talking about how he saw like different kinds of businesses, right?
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a business that exists to do a thing and it may or may not make money, and there's businesses that exist to make money, and I think his whole premise was that musicians who go from like maybe like an independent label to a major label are stepping from one world to another and not realizing it and not realizing that all the context and all the the has changed, or whether that you know people believe that is not is you know, it's up to people to decide for themselves.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: But that changed the entire way I practiced psychology because I it was it was it was the way that like the whole idea that when people are going in with certain intentions, like the thing that I was just telling you before, a lot of that comes from listening to Steve.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, like on that level, you know, I loved talking with Steve.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: But then like, you know, I loved talking with, you know, Darrell McDaniels, like because Daryl McDaniels was like the first really big star that ever came into my office and just sat down and talked with me in my in my office when I had an office in in New York.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: And his talking about being a uh his comic book and how the the character of DMC, you know, was so uh and it's just like I was like, oh my god, like the kind like you like that, you know, that changed how I saw them, or like, you know, but then there's you know, this I mean I can I could keep going on.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, like talking to Lily Cornell Silver about being like, you know, just a powerful mental health advocate and seeing young people stepping up the way that she has and taking on like this this very difficult issue where she doesn't, you know, she doesn't have to.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: She's you know, she's incredibly talented.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: She can do she is doing a whole bunch of things.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so like every I I could I could honestly, I could go through almost every person that I've interviewed and I could tell you in much more detail than I just did exactly why I loved talking with them.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and for some reason it doesn't, it I you know, some it doesn't really ever feel like, oh, this is my favorite.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's obviously some people I just naturally like click with, or maybe I've known, you know, longer.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh do you like doubt like doubt me?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like this point, you know, this like we've talked a whole bunch of times, and so I feel so comfortable talking with him, and I always enjoy um, you know, so but but there's just I mean, honestly, like I can't, you know, with a couple of exceptions, like I can't think of anyone where I just didn't come out being like that is really cool, you know, and that's what I love about doing it.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I love you know, I love the fact that every time I go an interview, I'm like almost guaranteed that I'm gonna come out with something, you know, ranging from pretty cool to like like life-changing cool, you know.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I hope that gets conveyed a little bit.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you know people pick, you know, feel that way at least somewhat.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I know that was a long-winded and no, no, no, no, no.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: You you and you and I are on the same plane of existence because I tell you, before every single episode of the podcast, I'll be sitting behind my little desk here, have a little bit of a knot in my stomach.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm nervous, I'm about to talk to somebody, and we might get into some deep shit, it might be some flaccid shit, who knows, right?
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I guarantee you, after every single episode, I run upstairs and I tell my wife, that was the best episode I've ever done.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: Every single episode, man.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so people ask me, you know, they're like, So, so what's your favorite episode of your podcast you've done so far?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I've only been doing mine for you know, not even not quite a year, maybe nine months now.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I say that's like asking me to pick which one of my kids is my favorite child.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna give you a different answer, a different day of the week, you know.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: Of course I've got a favorite child, but no, I'm not gonna let anybody know that.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, that's just that's just silly to think of.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: But but but in all seriousness, I I you know I get exactly where you're coming from.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, there were some people when I was looking through your list and a couple of your episodes that I've listened to that are just like, man, this is this is my shit.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: This is this is my tribe, you know.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's very apparent to me why your um subject of choice generally is musicians.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of fell in that way for the podcast.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, quite frankly, that it's gonna be that way forever.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that it because in in when I was doing the blog for psychology today, there was a little bit more.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was mostly musicians, but there were we did athletes and actors and um activists, you know, and it's I I think that for whatever reason, I think just my love of music has made it.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think we just wanted to at the beginning keep it a little bit more uniform.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think that one of the things that we're gonna probably be doing in after this season, we're gonna take a break and re-org things in terms of like how we want to do it.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I have a feeling we'll be we'll be looking at um, you know, other genres of people, if you will.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um just because we, you know, the goal is is to again, we want everyone to have to look in and you know, say, like, well, you know, there's like my favorite musician, there's my, you know, maybe there's my favorite actor, there's my favorite athlete, there's, you know, there's like my favorite politician, even, you know, and like and and having just you want to get hit as many areas so that everyone feels like they've got something that they can hang on to that lets them think like, hey, you know, maybe I can do what I want in my life.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, that's obviously a that's a tall order, but it's definitely the uh definitely the mission, if you will.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I get that.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, pulling the curtain back a little bit more with how I landed here is I haven't played in a band for 10 years now.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: My very last show was opening a big festival for Avenged Sevenfold and Three Days Grace, and the last band I was in.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, I found myself walking around that venue and it was a big outdoor show.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know, I think this is the biggest it's ever going to get for me.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been doing it for um superficial reasons for a little while now.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: It started off pure, it started off artistic, but it ended up in a very like superficial place where I was kind of becoming a ghost in a shell of my former self.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know, this is the time, this is the right place to walk away from this.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I haven't done this for 10 years.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't done music for 10 years.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a group of friends that I created on Facebook, and it's just a bunch of dudes that are like dealing with being in our uh late 30s, early 40s, mid-40s, early 50s, and we just kind of we just kind of all talk about this type of shit.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just like these are the roads we've traveled on, and of course, a lot of them are musicians.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, when the pandemic had hit its height, I was like, man, now I'm starting to miss having a creative endeavor again.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'll start a podcast.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of how I ended up where I was, and getting to this long-winded diatribe to a conclusion here.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um God, long-winded.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Do you hear do you hear how I talked?
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: That was like nothing.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: That was like but but you know, I uh I I kind of resolved myself to the fact, and I'm talking to this group of guys, and I was just like, you know, I think I'm gonna start a podcast.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, so what's your topic gonna be?
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: What's your podcast gonna be about?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's not gonna do shit if if you don't have a singular focus.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, no, that's the point.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to have a singular focus.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: I I think the easy default for me would be dial up all my old musician friends, reconnect with all these big connections I made over 20 years of playing in rock bands, and just have music be my default.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: But realistically, if I want to really, because I I I think self-development is ultimately became my become my theme of my podcast, but ultimately I need to challenge myself.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: I need to talk to people outside of you know where my comfort zone is.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that's man, you you and I are on similar planes of existence, brother.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're a couple of mics in like different like you know parts of the country, like bringing it together.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: Two two mics on a Monday night.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: You're wearing a hat, so I didn't know if it's a couple of bald mics, but like, you know, I know one.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, look at that.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: Look at that, look at that angry head of hair, like just taunting me.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, two two mics on a Monday night, man.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: So what's the most important thing that you've learned in your life?
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: I will I will tell you, like, one of one of the things that that I don't know if this is the most important thing, but I know it's probably the most consistent with um what all this that we've been talking about.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think I don't think that I ever recognized how much people just want to love and be loved.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: And as and and I don't mean love like romantic, like love in the in the context of like love, you know, like just everything like from the moment you get up in the morning, are you loving yourself?
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean love in that, like in the same way, like the positive versus negative.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't mean like being like, I love myself.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if if that's you, that's that's that's great, but more of like a love, like in kind of like a kindness, like being like I what I'll often say to my patients is like, I don't need you to love yourself, I don't need you to be like overly positive.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think I just need you to be like basically fair to yourself, though.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: Be basically kind to yourself.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're like, you know, like a working, you know, single parent and you're struggling with depression and you're raising a kid and you're like and you're just like I'm a total loser.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's like back up like for a second.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: If a third person came in and referred to you as a loser, and I was able to witness that, like we would we would have a problem.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I don't need you to be like say you're the greatest thing in the world, but but don't call yourself a fucking loser, you know what I mean?
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and I I take that I that I have a problem with, not because it's pessimistic, because I'm like, just just be fair, you know what I mean?
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're like, hey, I drink too much, I'm not gonna be like, don't say you drink too much.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, okay, you drink too much for your goals.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that one of the things that I've been learning recently is how, and this is a principle I think of humanistic psychology, is just like how much people just want to love and be loved, but how many things get in the way of those that simple two-way process?
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that like recently I've been thinking a lot about asking myself in terms of almost everything that I do is this loving or is this like loving?
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: And am I am I am I loving others, including myself, and am I allowing love to come in?
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that when I look at the world in that simple way, it's amazing how much, at least for myself, like I don't do that.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I would that's probably for me, at least recently, like probably like you know, the the the number one thing that I would say that I've learned is that like reducing these theoretically complicated concepts into very simple, like there's nothing more practical than a good theory.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and people think, oh, it's all theoretical.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, like if I can go into every situation being like, am I being loving?
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: Am I like love, you know, like am I loving my house by like taking care of it?
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: Am I loving you know, my wife and my kids by being kind to them?
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: Am I loving my friends?
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: Am I love, am I loving my music or martial arts, or like, am I loving my my practice, like you know, the podcast?
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: Am I giving it love um in in a way, it doesn't mean I have to give it my all or whatever, but it might be basically being kind, am I basically being compassionate, by basically being understanding um and trying to move forward and allowing people to do that with me.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: That is probably maybe I'll think of something else like you know, 10 minutes later, but that's probably the biggest thing that I've been focusing on.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: That is, it's such to me, it's such a simple truth, but it's not how I've lived my life.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in looking at that, I I think a lot of my regrets are around not just approaching it that way.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I think that when I pull it back, I'm like, I kind of like doing that.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I just I don't know if I ever gave myself like the chance to really like because you know, a lot of things get in the way, like shame gets in the way, insecurity gets in the way, um, aspirations get in the way, you know, all the all these kinds of things.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes if you reduce it like that, that's probably the that I don't know, it's again long-winded, but that's probably like the the number one thing I've learned.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I uh not to not to go back on the the whole pessimistic optimistic thing, more of a positive to come from the COVID-19 thing, is I think we're living through a renaissance of growth mindset with people.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we there's a renaissance of self-actualization where people are kind of starting to um, you know, and this goes back to the beginning of the podcast where we talk about people being transparent about their mental health and um realizing, you know, it may be biochemical, you know, but but they can influence how they practice self-care and um, like you said, love themselves and appreciate themselves, if you will, in a certain way.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think like even again, when I when I say loving, the the appreciation even gets a little tricky because it's it's again, I think that there's a lot of pressure on people to feel a certain way about themselves, which I think actually it gets disconnected, you know, because I think a lot of people, as an example, they're most people assume that like self-hatred causes depression.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that as an example, depression causes self-hatred because people are very just they're they're just really, really upset that they can't mobilize their mood the way that they see other people doing.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and I think that they're just like, God, why can't I, you know, and it it hurts physically and that kind of stuff.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so I always like to say when you say like appreciate yourself and whatever, it there's always the risk that that comes across as um tone-deaf a little bit.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so it's it's not saying that the way you were saying it was, but like I think that I'm I'm always careful about that.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, saying people as an example, like, you know, you have to be able to validate if somebody has like biological something, let's say depression or addiction, it's like how difficult that is.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: That being said, again, if you're gonna be loving, that's the way I like as an example.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think like I think it's loving to validate something like that to understand it.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't think it's it's loving to be like, oh, but it'll be okay, because it's like, well, it's okay for you because you don't have depression, you know, or if you did, you wouldn't say something like that.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: Not you personally, I mean, right, right.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it, but then it's also loving to be like, listen, now that we've established that, you know, we want to give you the best chance of of managing it.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like you say to someone, look, you got diabetes, like there are certain things that you now have to do, or certain things that you can't do that other people could get away with.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you some people can go down to the candy store and you know, and and you know, just have whatever they want.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: You unfortunately can't do that, but let's give you the best chance by doing like so.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: I like with every single person I work with, one of the first things I say is until you're sleeping well, eating well, exercising, and you're you basically have taken substances out of your life, I don't really even know what you're about.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what you can do, you know, because so many of the problems that we have come from one of those four things.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, to me, that's a that's a kindness, like be nurturing yourself and like, you know, but it's not necessarily positive in the in the classic sense.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's just kind of a recognition, like, hey, if you sleep more, look at look at how you sleep, and do you do you feel better?
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: Some people are like, no, I don't, you know, it's like, all right, well, that's different.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: But most people are like, yeah, I just I'm less anxious.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, most most of the people who come to me with panic attacks, their first panic was when they were hung over, you know, and it's like because they were just like, what the hell is this feeling?
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it's like the that those kindnesses, if you will, and that loving of yourself is not always, again, is not always positive, unfortunately, but it doesn't have to be.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_01: What's next for Dr.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: Mike?
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're gonna we're gonna finish up this season.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we got some uh cool people, I don't know, depending on when this is coming out.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, you know, we got George Clinton of Parliament Funkadella coming up, and Vernon Reed of Living Color.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we've got Linda Perry.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we've definitely got some guests that I'm um psyched about.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I think towards the end of the summer, I think we're gonna we're gonna take a break.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: We're actually gonna build up um our online coaching program because right now, one of the things that my my wife and I work on hardcore humanism together as partners, and she does, you know, she does mostly everything, but you know, like she produces the podcast, she built our website, she edits all of our articles and and helps with content and like so one of the things that that she was pointing out is that we we've got a lot of you know the podcast and the articles coming up, but there's not as much.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I do our program with my patients or my clients, but we don't have as much online in that way.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that probably what we're gonna be spending the next year doing is really, is really getting all of the the actual, like you said, the self-development stuff on our website to be accessible in different ways, whether it's through seminars or videos or you know, forums, like there's a whole bunch of things that we're gonna do.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we're we're gonna, I think we're gonna reconceptualize how we do hardcore humanism as a podcast, and then really build that other stuff up so that hopefully people can make the connection and say, like, oh, this is, you know, this is why we're doing like, you know, we can really like walk people through like, here's what the hardcore humanism philosophy and program is, and here's how we want to illustrate that in these, you know, these amazing people who have done all these wonderful things, who who have not because they've gone through the program, it's not like, oh, this is someone who did, it's not that at all.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we're learning from them and hopefully like you know, giving that to you.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like they are like, oh, look how great they are because they did hardcore humanism.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_01: They were great on their own.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're we're we're kind of again, you know, in the process of learning from them.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, that that's gonna be cool.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um, we're gonna be doing another podcast with Consequenza Sound called Going There, which uh in our second season, um which is uh much more about music and mental illness.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um hardcore humanism touches on that a lot, but it it hits some other areas as well.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's much more like you said, like self-development in general, whereas going there is really, really about like artists talking about mental illness.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so we're gonna be we're gonna be continuing doing that.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, just working with people and you know, climbing out of the pandemic.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking, I'm looking forward to going back to shows and starting doing jujitsu again and just like uh seeing people.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you and I were talking beforehand, like we want to get out to you know, parts of the country that we haven't spent as much time in.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: You and I were talking about Nebraska because we definitely want to hit there.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, so we're looking forward to trying to stay safe while opening up a bit, living with purpose, I guess.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_00: So what's what's gonna be your first show back?
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like what's uh what's the first concert you're gonna go to when you can?
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, I mean, we we've been going to show out outdoor hardcore.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, just started.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_01: We we went to two outdoor hardcore shows.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um one that was uh in Jersey and one that was in New York.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so um that we've already, I guess, technically started back.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure what the first and we're gonna, I'm gonna go to outdoor, you know, probably outdoor shows throughout the summer.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_01: I actually don't know what the first indoor show that I'm that I'm gonna because there's a lot of shows that I had tickets for that are now coming back.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know Ministry.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when I interviewed Al Jorgensen, like Ministry's coming, and I would love we interviewed Dirty Honey, they're coming around with the black, actually, that's outdoors coming around with the black crows.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a lot of metal festivals that I a hundred percent um but the black and blue bowl that we were supposed to see had all the New York hardcore bands, and we didn't, you know, we didn't we didn't see them indoors.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I I actually that is a great question.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know indoor, but outdoor we're we're pretty much gonna be, you know, hitting as many as we can as often as we can.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hey man, thank you very much for doing the podcast.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you, man.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's been a great honor.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, dude, thanks so much.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was great talking and thanks for having me on.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's fantastic.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: True story, I had every single intention of letting sleeping dogs lie and leaving this episode to edit tomorrow.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was so excited after this episode was done that I got it all done within two hours, and I didn't rush.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_00: I enjoyed every single moment.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you very much, Dr.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_00: Mike.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: You can find Dr.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_00: Mike's podcast, hardcore humanism with Dr.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_00: Mike on all of your favorite podcasting platforms.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_00: And give him a follow on social media if you can find him.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of social media follows, give me a follow on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok by looking for Cot on the Mic with Michael Clark.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_00: And as always, I ask for that five-star review on whatever podcasting platform you're using.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_00: This has been Cod on the Mic with Michael Clark.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Michael Clark.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.