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93. At 96, She’s Still Learning, Working & Exploring Life with Bubbles Levinson · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy: Kia ora, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:03
  Tracy: I'm your host, Tracey Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators from, and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Tracy: Kia ora, everyone.
• 0:34
  Tracy: Welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:38
  Tracy: Oh, I'm very excited today.
• 0:40
  Tracy: I get to chat with Beulah Levinson, AKA Bubbles.
• 0:46
  Tracy: Welcome, Bubbles.
• 0:48
  Bubbles: Thank you, Tracy.
• 0:50
  Bubbles: So a little bit about myself is that I was born in South Africa of continental of, of European parents, and the second of four children.
• 1:02
  Bubbles: My mother chose to take me back to Belgium when I was six months old, so that was the beginning of a long history of traveling in my life.
• 1:15
  Bubbles: And so I had, as a first language, my French was my first language.
• 1:20
  Bubbles: By the time I came back to South Africa a couple of years later, my first, my language was French And in fact, you know, I think I felt always in my life that I lived in a very multicultural and multilingual l- uh, family.
• 1:41
  Bubbles: My father always had people who came to him for his business who were from Europe and in many different languages, French, English, Dutch, even Hungarian.
• 1:55
  Bubbles: So always our home was filled with different people.
• 2:00
  Bubbles: We had a lot of experience of meeting people from all over the world.
• 2:04
  Bubbles: Mm. And also during that, during that time, during … I was born in 1930.
• 2:11
  Bubbles: Then that time, of course, you know, later on came the war, and my parents were very involved with, with, uh, talking about and helping people who were, uh, from Belgium, and they were refugees.
• 2:25
  Bubbles: And so we would bring them into South Africa to help them.
• 2:29
  Bubbles: And so we always had a lot of interesting and varied lives and varied discussions around me.
• 2:40
  Bubbles: I trained my, my schooling, my training, my ps- my psychological training, everything was done in Johannesburg.
• 2:47
  Bubbles: I went to Witwatersrand University.
• 2:50
  Bubbles: And, um, I married when I was 20, just I think going on 22.
• 2:57
  Bubbles: I married Bernard, and he was a doctor at that time.
• 3:02
  Bubbles: He was just qualifying and was doing his internship at Baragwanath Hospital, a very famous hospital in South Africa, all Black, where doctors worked from morn till night and often had sessions that went on for 48 hours because there was so much work.
• 3:22
  Bubbles: So we married, and he became-- He at one time wanted to be a, a gynecologist, and we went to London to try and find that, uh, specialty for him.
• 3:34
  Bubbles: However, it didn't work.
• 3:35
  Bubbles: He do- couldn't get it, and eventually when we came back to South Africa, he went into practice as a GP and used to do a lot of hypnotherapy, and did it extremely well and very successfully.
• 3:49
  Bubbles: So the two of us would be reading a lot of psychological literature.
• 3:53
  Bubbles: And then Um, I had trained as a teacher because that was what my father thought was a good idea for me.
• 4:01
  Bubbles: I had taken a BA in French and English, and then I did a teacher's diploma.
• 4:07
  Bubbles: And so the two of us had lots to talk about, and eventually he decided he would become a psychiatrist.
• 4:15
  Bubbles: And after all that happened and we went to, back to Johannesburg, I decided I wanted to do psychology and went back to university, and they gave me one year and I did my honors degree and my MA, and then went into practice.
• 4:32
  Bubbles: And he and I did a lot of work together.
• 4:34
  Bubbles: And-
• 4:34
  Tracy: Fabulous.
• 4:36
  Bubbles: Fabulous And then once we went, once I started, um, practicing, uh, or actually just before I started practicing, I did a training with a woman called Yvonne Blake, and she had had a psychoanalytic training in the Kleinian school with Hannah Segal in London.
• 4:55
  Bubbles: So all the English ps- uh, psychoanalysts were part of my life and training.
• 5:01
  Tracy: Mm. Mm.
• 5:02
  Bubbles: That meant it was Donald Winnicott, uh, Douglas Fairbairn, many others of that school, of the English school.
• 5:10
  Bubbles: And so she believed that when people were depressed or when people were needing to go through anything, we didn't ever believe in giving medication.
• 5:22
  Bubbles: So we would work with people, and it would take years, many years.
• 5:27
  Bubbles: I had clients that I worked with for at least 10 years and more.
• 5:32
  Bubbles: And we followed this therapeutic line, which also included Ronnie Laing.
• 5:39
  Bubbles: I don't know how many people remember him, but he was a most incredible, fabulous, uh, uh, therapist who set up schools in London, Philadelphia Homes they were called.
• 5:51
  Bubbles: And they used to work literally with people from the beginning of their lives, from the birth onwards, and he would work through all their problems, doing everything that was absolutely basic and necessary.
• 6:06
  Bubbles: And Ronnie Laing was one of my real inspirations, because this is what I would do.
• 6:11
  Bubbles: I worked with people from the beginning, and this was interesting because Klein was the woman who talked about infant psychology.
• 6:21
  Bubbles: So we were- This
• 6:21
  Tracy: is Melanie Klein.
• 6:23
  Bubbles: Melanie Klein, that's right.
• 6:25
  Bubbles: So of course, right from the beginning, one was involved with that early, early life experience.
• 6:31
  Bubbles: And she was an absolutely brilliant, as far as I could feel, a brilliant teacher.
• 6:38
  Bubbles: It w- because what one learnt in psychoanalysis, it gave one the armature of personality development.
• 6:46
  Bubbles: This meant that one knew and studied all the time, right from the start.
• 6:52
  Bubbles: I don't think at that time there was that much involved in the womb story yet, but certainly from birth and infancy onwards, this was part of the work that we would do.
• 7:04
  Bubbles: And this was part of the work that I would do.
• 7:07
  Bubbles: And I would sit with patients and work with them for hours on end.
• 7:12
  Bubbles: I would be called out at night.
• 7:14
  Bubbles: I would work with somebody who was going through something at night.
• 7:17
  Tracy: Mm.
• 7:17
  Bubbles: I had one young woman who worked with me for years, and then eventually wrote a monogram about our th- uh, therapy.
• 7:25
  Bubbles: She would sit every day with her head on my lap, and we would do whatever it was that she was working with at that time.
• 7:35
  Tracy: W- sorry, what did you s- she wrote a… Bubbles: A monogram.
• 7:40
  Tracy: Okay.
• 7:40
  Tracy: And is that… How would you access that?
• 7:43
  Bubbles: Well, it's in my book somewhere.
• 7:45
  Bubbles: I've never, ever published it.
• 7:47
  Tracy: Right.
• 7:47
  Bubbles: Because I just haven't, but I've got it.
• 7:50
  Bubbles: And if anyone- Okay … was interested in reading it, and she wrote everyt- everything about our therapy.
• 7:55
  Bubbles: It was such a w- such a really first thing for me to have done.
• 8:00
  Bubbles: And again, as I say, I just worked with people for a very long time.
• 8:05
  Tracy: Mm.
• 8:05
  Bubbles: Until they were ready to take their own lives.
• 8:09
  Bubbles: And I really have hundreds of letters of people who really were so grateful and so happy that we took the time, that they were heard and they were seen.
• 8:21
  Tracy: That's fabulous.
• 8:22
  Tracy: Y- yeah, beautiful.
• 8:24
  Tracy: How did you go from that to, into the other-
• 8:28
  Bubbles: Yeah … sciences?
• 8:29
  Bubbles: So I'll tell you about that now.
• 8:31
  Bubbles: So although that was so magnificent for me, one day an American friend of my husband's came in and brought a book called In and Out the Garbage Pail by Fritz Perls.
• 8:44
  Tracy: In and Out the Garbage Pail.
• 8:46
  Bubbles: That's his book.
• 8:48
  Bubbles: It's a gorgeous title and a fabulous book.
• 8:51
  Bubbles: And I read that, and of course, I was immediately inspired, and I said to Bernard, "I'm going. I'm going to America, and I'm going to study this." And so off I did exactly that.
• 9:02
  Bubbles: I wrote to a few of the, uh, uh, Gestalt therapists in America.
• 9:08
  Bubbles: And from Irv Polster, I got a very warm and welcoming letter.
• 9:13
  Bubbles: And so that's what I did.
• 9:15
  Bubbles: I went to America.
• 9:17
  Bubbles: I went to, first he was in San Diego.
• 9:20
  Bubbles: And went into that group, and I think that I cried for most of that, that session.
• 9:25
  Bubbles: Mm. I did a lot of weeping.
• 9:27
  Bubbles: It was a very interesting and mind, uh, mind-blasting for me at that time.
• 9:33
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 9:33
  Bubbles: He and his wife, Miriam Polster, were superb Gestalt, uh, therapists with wonderful reputations.
• 9:41
  Bubbles: He has written fabulous books.
• 9:44
  Bubbles: And then I did the next year, because I had to go back the second year, and then they were in La Jolla, which was gorgeous.
• 9:51
  Bubbles: Very much like Cape Town, actually.
• 9:54
  Bubbles: So I qualified as a Gestalt therapist and came back to South Africa, and we had made friends with a wonderful priest who had done sensitivity work.
• 10:04
  Bubbles: You know, this was in the '70s, the early '70s.
• 10:06
  Bubbles: Yeah.
• 10:06
  Bubbles: And this was still the counterculture and all that stuff in America with Tim Leary and… Now I've forgotten that word where, where they all were.
• 10:16
  Bubbles: But anyway, he helped me to set up my first Gestalt meeting, and then I started running groups, and I ran a great, great many groups for many years in groups with lots of people.
• 10:30
  Bubbles: I used to run marathons, weekend marathons on my own, and then I had very wonderful… I had a man called Alan Zimbler, who became one of my early, uh, uh, clients, and he became a fabulous, fabulous worker, and worked in organizations in, in business organizations with different groups.
• 10:54
  Bubbles: And then I had a colleague who also was- became very interested in Gestalt, and so the two of us would run weekly meetings every Wednesday at night from 9:00 to
• 11:05
  11: 00 or something, and they went on for years, and people used to come up to me after this for many years talking about how wonderful those groups were.
• 11:15
  11: So we did a lot of Gestalt work there.
• 11:18
  Tracy: Can I, can I just pause you s- for a second- Yeah … and invite you to… 'Cause not everybody knows what gestalt is.
• 11:25
  Bubbles: Okay.
• 11:26
  Bubbles: So the difference between the an- analysis, you know, although I never put my patients on the couch, I always had them face-to-face, the difference with gestalt was that you were face-to-face with your patient.
• 11:38
  Tracy: Mm.
• 11:38
  Bubbles: And the, the point about gestalt is that other than the past, which the psychoanal- anal- analysis was about, this was about the here and now, and especially about the body.
• 11:51
  Bubbles: So here we now come to the focus on watching the body.
• 11:56
  Bubbles: Mm. And the beauty of Fritz Perls, whose, uh, videos I watched, and they were absolute- he was hysterical, and very naughty, and but absolutely
• 12:06
  Tracy: brilliant.
• 12:06
  Tracy: I like the sound of him.
• 12:08
  Bubbles: He's wonderful.
• 12:09
  Bubbles: If ever you can see, Gloria was the first one I watched.
• 12:13
  Bubbles: He is so naughty, but the point about his work is that he wanted you to notice absolutely everything that the patient did.
• 12:23
  Bubbles: You wanted to be aware of every gesture, and every gesture was something that he would notice and ask people to lean into, and that would open up a whole field of work.
• 12:37
  Tracy: Wow.
• 12:38
  Bubbles: So gestalt is about perception, and it had its earliest beginnings in perception work that was done by Kohler.
• 12:46
  Bubbles: I think he'd done some… I can't at this moment remember the details of it, but that was all about perception, and Perls was a magnificent example of that because he really watched and made people pay attention to things that we didn't see in psychoanalysis So he watched the body, and he watched how people sat and how they would walk, and he would make them do all kind of physical things.
• 13:16
  Bubbles: So that was a new and wonderful development.
• 13:20
  Bubbles: So that was, you know, the work that I did.
• 13:23
  Bubbles: And then I did, I went and did groups with medical students in their fourth and final years at the university, working with them on their experiences of being in the hospital, 'cause the fourth year was the first year that they came into clinical contact with people, and in the sixth and final year.
• 13:42
  Bubbles: And we would work about death and dying and all their experiences of that and how it, what it meant to them, and it would work in them not only an ability to empathize with their clients, their patients, but also their own feelings of what was happening in the hospital situation.
• 14:05
  Bubbles: And luckily for me, we had friends who were in the… He was an orthopedic surgeon, and he believed in working with the hospital patients on their operations and on their feelings.
• 14:18
  Bubbles: Before the operations, they would be told what was happening.
• 14:22
  Bubbles: They would be inclined, they would be asked how they felt, because they realized that, or at least we realized, that when people get into a hospital bed, they go into, into a kind of regression.
• 14:35
  Bubbles: They haven't got their clothes.
• 14:36
  Bubbles: They're no longer their identities.
• 14:38
  Bubbles: And so they do need to talk about what's happening, because it's very scary.
• 14:44
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 14:45
  Bubbles: So we did a lot of work.
• 14:46
  Bubbles: We had people going into wards, and I went to, to, to Holland at one stage to see a fellow who had done wonderful work, and found that the difference in healing was enormous, because people would have some kind of attention and care before and after their operations.
• 15:06
  Tracy: So that- Well, that's fabulous.
• 15:07
  Tracy: Like leading edge stuff there, um, Bubbles
• 15:11
  Bubbles: It was very interesting, Rosie.
• 15:13
  Bubbles: It really was, you know.
• 15:16
  Bubbles: I was also part of a multidisciplinary group.
• 15:19
  Bubbles: A gastroenter- enterologist started it, and there were people, there were GPs, there were nurses, there were priests, there were students, and there were psychiatrists, the head of the unit, and myself.
• 15:31
  Bubbles: And we worked incredibly interesting work With all the medical things, because people were open to that.
• 15:39
  Tracy: Mm.
• 15:39
  Bubbles: And I ran Gestalt groups also with, um, with nurses.
• 15:44
  Bubbles: And then at that stage also, we opened a home.
• 15:50
  Bubbles: We … My husband had a, a sponsor who opened a home, which had been a nunnery, in Johannesburg for people who were drug addicts.
• 15:59
  Bubbles: And we would work with them, but we would also work with the staff.
• 16:03
  Bubbles: It was almost one-on-one.
• 16:05
  Bubbles: We found wonderful people.
• 16:07
  Bubbles: We did art therapy.
• 16:08
  Bubbles: We did pr- puppet therapy.
• 16:10
  Bubbles: We did music therapy with people.
• 16:13
  Bubbles: And of course, groups.
• 16:14
  Bubbles: All this time we ran groups, not only with the patients, but definitely with their families.
• 16:20
  Bubbles: And that's been an important aspect that, you know, when you work with children or with adolescents, it is important to recognize the context in which they live.
• 16:31
  Bubbles: And so we never, ever ignored parents.
• 16:34
  Bubbles: We always worked with parents.
• 16:36
  Bubbles: Mm. We'd had an interesting experience one time We had a knock on our door and a, a young man appeared and he said he was one of six who were all drug addicts.
• 16:49
  Bubbles: Young, young, young, young men.
• 16:51
  Bubbles: They are all drug addicts.
• 16:52
  Bubbles: And he said to us, if we would work with them, we had to work with their parents.
• 16:58
  Bubbles: So Bernard and I did groups both with the parents and with these young men.
• 17:04
  Bubbles: And one of them actually became one of the greatest, one of the most important and serious, uh, a psychi- a psychologists in South Africa, and he's still in practice today.
• 17:16
  Bubbles: Fantastic.
• 17:17
  Bubbles: So it was very rewarding work.
• 17:18
  Bubbles: It was absolutely wonderful.
• 17:20
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 17:21
  Bubbles: So that was one thing.
• 17:23
  Bubbles: And then, oh, God, there was something else popped into
• 17:25
  Tracy: my head.
• 17:25
  Tracy: You've had such a rich history.
• 17:28
  Bubbles: Well, it really has been, Tracy.
• 17:30
  Bubbles: It really has been, you know.
• 17:32
  Bubbles: We really have had a very broad base, you know.
• 17:36
  Bubbles: Mm-hmm.
• 17:37
  Bubbles: So after that, my fancy was taken.
• 17:41
  Bubbles: Um, I can't remember ac- exactly at this moment how it started, but I became very caught up in music therapy.
• 17:49
  Bubbles: You know I love music.
• 17:50
  Bubbles: I was a singer, and I wanted at one time to be a professional singer.
• 17:55
  Bubbles: And Bernard and I were both very, very fond of music.
• 17:58
  Bubbles: So music was very much part of my life.
• 18:01
  Bubbles: And I heard about Professor Alfred Tomatis- Mm-hmm who worked with the Tomatis method.
• 18:07
  Bubbles: So there off I went to France, to Paris.
• 18:11
  Bubbles: Uh, I had actually worked with body therapy with a woman called Therese Berthod.
• 18:17
  Bubbles: And she did work that was very specialized, and I went to France for that, to Paris for that for two years.
• 18:24
  Bubbles: And then I had to stop because I couldn't stay there.
• 18:27
  Bubbles: I was still running a practice.
• 18:29
  Bubbles: And so she sent us to Tomatis.
• 18:31
  Bubbles: That's how I got to it, now I remember.
• 18:33
  Bubbles: And he said, "If you come and work with me, I'll teach you this method.
• 18:37
  Bubbles: Come for six months and you can do it yourself." So I did that.
• 18:42
  Bubbles: I came for six months to Paris.
• 18:45
  Bubbles: I trained, I got qualified, and I got the machines that we had to use, because he used special machines which filtered music, Mozart and Gregorian chant.
• 18:57
  Bubbles: And then I came back to Cape Town and set up a center in Cape Town.
• 19:03
  Tracy: That's so interesting.
• 19:04
  Tracy: The, the, my mind's going do-do-do-do-do all over the place- … because I just love… And the, the Mozart, the Gregorian chants, and the work.
• 19:13
  Tracy: I'll just share this.
• 19:14
  Tracy: So like intuitively when my babies were little, and I was really s- struggling in my own mental health and addiction as well at the time, but intuitively I played Mozart for them.
• 19:25
  Bubbles: Oh, really?
• 19:27
  Bubbles: Oh, how fantastic.
• 19:29
  Tracy: And then later on I got really, really into the Gregorian chants.
• 19:33
  Bubbles: Yeah.
• 19:34
  Bubbles: They're glorious, you know.
• 19:36
  Bubbles: I went in Par- while I was doing my training, Tomatis took me to Normandy, and there there was a marvelous cathedral where I'd never heard a Gregorian chants, of course, you know, being Jewish wasn't part of my upbringing.
• 19:49
  Bubbles: He took me, and I heard these wonderful singers.
• 19:53
  Bubbles: Oh, they were, it was the most exquisite experience, absolutely wonderful.
• 19:59
  Bubbles: They are wonderful, and of course, hearing them live, you know, was very special.
• 20:03
  Tracy: Mm. And the, um, the therapy, the, the Tomatis, Tomatis?
• 20:08
  Bubbles: Yes.
• 20:09
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 20:09
  Tracy: Tomatis ther- therapy.
• 20:11
  Tracy: I only heard of that, oh, wow, it's Oscar, probably about 13 years ago when my, my husband's- great nephew was born, and he, he was really struggling.
• 20:23
  Tracy: And they, they ended up, um, doing some Tomatis therapy with him.
• 20:28
  Tracy: He has, um, he has quite a few special, special needs.
• 20:32
  Tracy: So, uh, yeah.
• 20:34
  Tracy: F- fabulous.
• 20:35
  Tracy: So how did… So you, you learned that, and then you took it back to South Africa?
• 20:39
  Bubbles: Yeah.
• 20:40
  Bubbles: Established it in Cape Town.
• 20:42
  Bubbles: Huge center.
• 20:44
  Bubbles: I had, I think, three-quarters of Cape Town came through my center.
• 20:48
  Bubbles: And because we did art therapy, because when people were listening, they had to do something creative.
• 20:54
  Bubbles: So some of them painted, some of them drew, some of them knitted, some of them did all sorts of different things.
• 21:01
  Bubbles: And we always encouraged patients to be, you know, children to be there with their parents.
• 21:07
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 21:08
  Bubbles: So that was also very important.
• 21:10
  Bubbles: I always saw the parents of the children.
• 21:13
  Bubbles: Many children, we worked with children from a place called the Vera School, which had autistic children.
• 21:19
  Bubbles: So we worked with all these different children with learning problems, emotional problems, concentration, clumsy, all those kind of physical things.
• 21:30
  Bubbles: Again, focus on the body, hey?
• 21:32
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 21:33
  Bubbles: And Tomatis would teach us neurology long before the neuroscientists got excited about it.
• 21:41
  Bubbles: I knew about the vagus nerve and all the other nerves that were innervated in the ear and their effect on the body long before the neuroscientists came and confirmed what he had long ago taught us, especially about the vagus nerve and all the pictures we had of it going through the whole body.
• 22:00
  Tracy: Wow.
• 22:02
  Bubbles: That's- It was very profound work… Tracy: another, another leading edge.
• 22:06
  Bubbles: Uh, you're on the leading edge of the leading edge.
• 22:09
  Bubbles: It was lovely work.
• 22:11
  Bubbles: You know, by the time I left Cape Town, I had wanted to establish a gallery.
• 22:16
  Bubbles: I was going to make a gallery on top of my garage roof because I had such artwork.
• 22:21
  Bubbles: You cannot believe, Tracy, what people who had never had a pen or a colored thing, you know, we provided artsy chalks, and whatever needed, was needed, we provided, including a chair that could turn into a bed if people wanted to lie down.
• 22:36
  Bubbles: Mm-hmm.
• 22:36
  Bubbles: I had a sort of nursery going in that room where I set up my center.
• 22:41
  Bubbles: And I had truly the most wonderful people working with me.
• 22:46
  Bubbles: And do you know that without exception, all those, I mean, you know, we were there from 1985 was when I started, and then in '86 I set up the center, and in, until 2003 when I left.
• 23:02
  Bubbles: I had people working for me in that center because I couldn't do everything.
• 23:07
  Bubbles: I was still practicing.
• 23:08
  Bubbles: So they were working the machines, which in any case, I was never good at.
• 23:13
  Bubbles: I was never good at anything technical, so I always had to have help, and people who would accompany all those going through the program, so they would talk to them, they would sit with them, they would be present.
• 23:27
  Bubbles: Mm. And every one of those men and women became psychologists.
• 23:32
  Bubbles: It was very interesting.
• 23:33
  Bubbles: Fantastic.
• 23:34
  Bubbles: They worked for me for a few years, and then they went on to study psychology and became therapists in their own right.
• 23:40
  Bubbles: So it was really wonderful work, you know.
• 23:43
  Bubbles: It really was.
• 23:44
  Tracy: So from there, let's just share a little bit about how you got involved in constellations.
• 23:50
  Bubbles: I had Ria Van Linden, I don't know if you know her.
• 23:52
  Bubbles: She's a wonderful gestalt therapist in Belgium, and she used to come to South Africa and we ran groups together.
• 23:59
  Bubbles: And then, um, she in, uh, said to me,"Go to America because Irv and Miriam are having their 25th anniversary, and I want you to be there." So I went, and I met them both after not having seen them for the last 25 years.
• 24:19
  Bubbles: And she was, unfortunately, had cancer and died fairly so- shortly after that.
• 24:25
  Bubbles: But in that workshop, there was a man who did, Wolf Bintig was his name, did a constellation therapy, and I saw it and fell in love with it.
• 24:36
  Bubbles: It was superb and moved us so deeply.
• 24:40
  Bubbles: He worked with a co- a Holocaust survivor, and it was one of the most extremely moving experiences of my life.
• 24:49
  Bubbles: So I thought to myself, "I've got to do that." And so I signed up and went to Germany to SIST, and that's where I did the training that I did with, um, Hellinger and, uh, Gunthard Weber and Hunter Beaumont and-
• 25:05
  Tracy: Mm… Bubbles: all those new, all Mahr, all those old chaps.
• 25:12
  Tracy: And it was, and Chris Walsh was there too.
• 25:15
  Tracy: So it was a very wonderful, again, another wonderful experience.
• 25:19
  Tracy: And that made me bring that back to South Africa, which I did.
• 25:24
  Tracy: I started the whole thing in Cape Town.
• 25:27
  Tracy: And then we would invite people, you know, some of the constellation people, like Ursula Frank.
• 25:34
  Tracy: She would come and she would run workshops.
• 25:37
  Tracy: And you know, Tracy, they didn't charge us a bean.
• 25:40
  Tracy: They knew that South Africa was difficult, and they didn't charge us at all.
• 25:45
  Tracy: And there was, uh, Frank Ger- Gelernter, Gelernter, and there was, uh, uh, Johannes Benedict Schmitt, and he came many times, and he never charged.
• 25:56
  Tracy: He was, I mean, he was an idol for me.
• 25:59
  Tracy: I absolutely adored the way he worked.
• 26:03
  Tracy: And he had also, interestingly, written a book, uh, for his MD thesis on early development, on the, on the f- on the birth and f- and early development of the child, and how that is with constellation.
• 26:18
  Tracy: And I've got it somewhere here.
• 26:20
  Tracy: It's a huge manifesto.
• 26:22
  Tracy: Very interesting.
• 26:23
  Tracy: He was a wonderful one, and he came, and he didn't charge us.
• 26:28
  Tracy: And so he- Did you say his last name was Smith?
• 26:30
  Bubbles: Pardon?
• 26:31
  Tracy: What did you say his last name was?
• 26:32
  Bubbles: Johannes Benedict Schmitt.
• 26:35
  Bubbles: Schmitt.
• 26:35
  Bubbles: B-E-N-E-D-I-C-T Schmitt.
• 26:37
  Bubbles: S-C-H-M-I-D-T.
• 26:38
  Bubbles: He's in Hamburg, Germany.
• 26:40
  Bubbles: And of course, he worked in English, although they're all German, but they all worked in English.
• 26:45
  Bubbles: And he then- Is he still
• 26:46
  Tracy: around?
• 26:47
  Bubbles: Yes.
• 26:48
  Bubbles: But he runs workshops in Europe, and I would have given anything in my life now to be able to go to one of them because I adored him so much.
• 26:56
  Bubbles: We had a wonderful connection.
• 26:58
  Bubbles: He used to come to my home, and we had lovely times together.
• 27:02
  Bubbles: He was wonderful.
• 27:04
  Bubbles: And then I worked with his wife, and she was very good too.
• 27:07
  Bubbles: He subsequently divorced her, I think, and had another one.
• 27:10
  Bubbles: But this one, her name was Andrea, and she was s- very special.
• 27:15
  Bubbles: I think she's moved to South Africa and is still living, as far as I know, in the Stellenbosch area.
• 27:22
  Tracy: Okay.
• 27:23
  Bubbles: So I had a lovely connection with them.
• 27:26
  Bubbles: And then eventually one of my first students in the constellation, 'cause everybody… I had a big practice, you see.
• 27:35
  Bubbles: So I was always lucky in that way that when I brought stuff, I could start a group immediately.
• 27:41
  Bubbles: And one of my first clients at that time was Tanja Myburgh.
• 27:45
  Bubbles: Mm. Tanja became extremely excited with the term- with the, um, uh, the constellation.
• 27:52
  Bubbles: And eventually we got Ursula Frank, and Tanja decided to work on setting up a training in South Africa.
• 28:02
  Bubbles: And Ursula came, and she and Tanja did that work.
• 28:05
  Bubbles: Now, they were doing it in Johannesburg, and I was living in Cape Town, so I wasn't part of the training story.
• 28:12
  Bubbles: But obviously, you know, having brought it, they were now able to work on it and made this training go.
• 28:19
  Bubbles: And as you know, Tanja has gone from strength to strength.
• 28:23
  Bubbles: I know.
• 28:24
  Bubbles: She and I are still in often contact - Yeah … and, you know, we have a lovely connection.
• 28:29
  Tracy: She's an amazing lady.
• 28:30
  Bubbles: She is an amazing lady, and she's done incredible work.
• 28:34
  Tracy: Mm.
• 28:34
  Bubbles: And I can tell you that, you know, even from a personal point of view, she's worked unbelievably hard and deserves everything she's got, and I know she does wonderful stuff in South Africa.
• 28:46
  Bubbles: So that was how I got into constellation work.
• 28:51
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 28:52
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 28:53
  Tracy: And you bring such a wealth of knowledge, you know, like all of that, all of that that has gone before, before you even started constellating.
• 29:01
  Bubbles: Yeah.
• 29:02
  Bubbles: Well, you see, this is the point, that I already had a basis from which to see and hear what people were saying.
• 29:11
  Bubbles: And because I had my own therapy for at least seven years, I know that I could be present, and I do think that that was one of my strengths, because I really felt I could be totally with whoever I was working with.
• 29:28
  Bubbles: And I can't tell you how importantly I feel, uh, how much I feel about the importance of doing one's own work, because - and people are very reluctant to do it, I can tell you.
• 29:40
  Bubbles: The current generation of psychiatrists and psychologists don't ever do anything for themselves, and I think it's wrong.
• 29:48
  Bubbles: I do think it- I,
• 29:49
  Tracy: I, I, yeah, I, yeah
• 29:51
  Bubbles: I'm sure you would agree- Mm-hmm … that if you don't do your own stuff, how can you really receive fully what anyone else is giving you?
• 30:01
  Tracy: Absolutely, yeah.
• 30:02
  Tracy: A- and, you know, the, the, the field is gonna challenge you.
• 30:07
  Tracy: The field is gonna show you those w- those things in your field and-
• 30:12
  Bubbles: Absolutely, yes.
• 30:14
  Tracy: Mm. Yeah.
• 30:16
  Tracy: And, and, yeah, and there are many layers to that, so, um, yeah.
• 30:22
  Bubbles: Oh, there are, yes.
• 30:22
  Bubbles: Yeah,
• 30:24
  Tracy: yeah.
• 30:24
  Bubbles: And when we talk about the field, that reminds me of Rupert Sheldrake, whose books I read avidly, and he was very interesting.
• 30:32
  Bubbles: He did a lot of videos with, with, um, with Hellinger.
• 30:36
  Bubbles: Very interesting work indeed on that- Mm… morphogenesis, you know, that stuff.
• 30:41
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 30:43
  Bubbles: Quite complicated.
• 30:45
  Bubbles: But it's so- Have you got to
• 30:45
  Tracy: meet Rupert?
• 30:46
  Tracy: Uh,
• 30:47
  Bubbles: did I actually meet him?
• 30:48
  Bubbles: I can't remember.
• 30:49
  Bubbles: I don't think so.
• 30:51
  Bubbles: I don't think I ever m- I met Hunter Beaumont, of course, and Hunter worked with him too, but I don't think I ever actually met Rupert, though I did love his work.
• 31:00
  Bubbles: And his son has written one of the most exquisite books called The Entangled Web.
• 31:06
  Bubbles: Have you come across it?
• 31:08
  Tracy: Merlin and-
• 31:10
  Bubbles: Yes … s-
• 31:10
  Tracy: son, his son's name.
• 31:12
  Tracy: Yes.
• 31:12
  Tracy: They've both got magnificent names.
• 31:15
  Bubbles: Yes,
• 31:15
  Tracy: absolutely.
• 31:15
  Tracy: Um, I went to Merlin's talk.
• 31:17
  Tracy: He had a talk in Auckland earlier this year- Oh, yeah… Bubbles: or last year.
• 31:22
  Bubbles: The one on- So, yeah the one on the, um, what do you call those things?
• 31:26
  Tracy: Mushrooms.
• 31:27
  Bubbles: Yes, that.
• 31:29
  Tracy: Mm.
• 31:29
  Bubbles: Isn't it amazing?
• 31:30
  Tracy: Very, very cool.
• 31:32
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 31:32
  Bubbles: Fantastic.
• 31:32
  Tracy: And then I did some work with, um, Rupert's wife, um-
• 31:37
  Bubbles: Oh, Jill.
• 31:38
  Tracy: Jill P-
• 31:39
  Bubbles: Jill Person.
• 31:40
  Tracy: Mm, yeah.
• 31:40
  Bubbles: Jill Person.
• 31:41
  Bubbles: She also does a kind of music work, I think.
• 31:44
  Tracy: She does all sorts.
• 31:45
  Tracy: She does some- Mm … um, toning, some throat, you know- Yeah like sort of Tibetan toning, and- Yeah… she does constellating her, you know.
• 31:54
  Tracy: Um, very unique- Oh, does she?
• 31:57
  Tracy: … to Jill.
• 31:57
  Tracy: Very unique- Yeah … to Jill.
• 31:57
  Tracy: And, um, oh, I'm trying to think.
• 32:00
  Tracy: Yeah, I have a, a, there's an interview with her is if you go back through my, through my feed, so.
• 32:05
  Bubbles: Oh, really?
• 32:07
  Bubbles: She's the name.
• 32:07
  Bubbles: I would like to.
• 32:07
  Bubbles: I will, 'cause I was very interested in her work, too.
• 32:11
  Bubbles: Yes, she was interesting.
• 32:12
  Tracy: Ah, okay.
• 32:14
  Bubbles: So.
• 32:15
  Tracy: I'm just thinking of, of the next question.
• 32:17
  Tracy: I'll let, I'll let the field pull up what's, what's next.
• 32:20
  Tracy: Oh, I, wanna come back to you said something about my father, my father's idea of what would be good for me, to be a teacher.
• 32:29
  Bubbles: Yeah.
• 32:31
  Bubbles: Well, you know- How was it… Tracy: I, I mean, obviously it's, of all of the things that flowed on.
• 32:36
  Bubbles: But- Yeah… Tracy: how was that for you at the time?
• 32:39
  Bubbles: Like, was, was that something you thought you wanted to do?
• 32:41
  Bubbles: It was very hard.
• 32:43
  Bubbles: You know, when I was 20 my parents, bless their hearts, took me to Europe for six months, and my father took us to the most wonderful things.
• 32:53
  Bubbles: I have … I mean, I've got these memories of Europe that I adore.
• 32:58
  Bubbles: You know?
• 32:58
  Bubbles: I'm totally devoted to it.
• 33:00
  Bubbles: And we went to wonderful things and wonderful places.
• 33:04
  Bubbles: And one of the things that I went to as a teacher, we had a great friend called Zonabend.
• 33:10
  Bubbles: He was a sociologist, and he had Italian friends, and he sent me to a woman called Madam Casoli.
• 33:18
  Bubbles: And I started singing lessons with her, 'cause I'd always sung.
• 33:21
  Bubbles: I'd started in South Africa.
• 33:23
  Bubbles: And then they took me to this woman in Rome, and oh, Tracy, she gave me the most unbelievable voice, and I was determined that I was going to be a singer.
• 33:35
  Bubbles: And then we went to London, and I did some work at the London Guildhall, and I thought, "No, I want to sing." And my father, on his knees, in our trip o- you know, the Skymasters were our planes then.
• 33:48
  Bubbles: On his knees was begging me, "You're not going to enter that world." And I c- you know, he was … "I'm not leaving my daughter alone in Europe." So, you know, it was that generation, darling.
• 34:01
  Bubbles: What can I say?
• 34:03
  Bubbles: Mm. But Tracy … And he said,"You know, you can be a teacher.
• 34:07
  Bubbles: You've got to be a teacher." So I had a BA, and I went and did that extra year and became the teacher.
• 34:12
  Bubbles: But you know, darling, he was right, because I don't think I've ever had the kind of stamina that it took.
• 34:20
  Bubbles: That when you realize what it takes to become an artist, my God When I hear what they did and how they struggled and what it takes, I don't think I've got that in me.
• 34:33
  Tracy: Well done, Dad.
• 34:35
  Bubbles: I was grateful to him, and you know I adored him because he was so wonderful.
• 34:40
  Bubbles: Oh, God, I loved him.
• 34:42
  Bubbles: So, you know, it was hard for me because I really had set my life at that point.
• 34:48
  Bubbles: And I've gone s- I've still singing.
• 34:50
  Bubbles: I still go to a woman in, in Auckland who plays for me, and I sing.
• 34:55
  Bubbles: I can't stop it, 'cause I just adore it.
• 34:57
  Bubbles: Oh,
• 34:57
  Tracy: fabulous.
• 34:57
  Bubbles: I made a disc in 1980.
• 34:59
  Bubbles: You know, in 2003, I made a disc of French cabaret songs.
• 35:03
  Bubbles: So, you know, I absolutely love this and I've had it all my life, but I'm really grateful that I didn't have to get into that world.
• 35:12
  Bubbles: You know, when you look at divas like Ma- like Ca- Callas, you know, and you see the work that it took, I could never have done it.
• 35:20
  Bubbles: I know I couldn't.
• 35:21
  Tracy: Mm. So was it like opera singing?
• 35:24
  Bubbles: That's right, yes.
• 35:25
  Tracy: Oh, right.
• 35:26
  Tracy: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:28
  Bubbles: And when my mother died, she had a gorgeous voice, sang absolutely magnificently.
• 35:33
  Bubbles: I made a disc of her songs to honor her, so they were all opera.
• 35:38
  Bubbles: They all were lovely.
• 35:40
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 35:41
  Tracy: What a fascinating, fascinating, uh,
• 35:44
  Bubbles: storytelling tale.
• 35:44
  Bubbles: So, you know, I haven't, I haven't let it go, but I was grateful to him in the end that I didn't have to do the, that kind of work.
• 35:53
  Tracy: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:54
  Tracy: Mm. And, and so for the, for the listeners and the viewers, um, Bubbles, you now live in New Zealand.
• 36:02
  Bubbles: Right.
• 36:04
  Bubbles: So you, you see, travel has been in my blood.
• 36:06
  Tracy: Oh, you're just such an adventurer.
• 36:09
  Bubbles: Oh, God.
• 36:10
  Bubbles: When I was in Paris- Yeah … one of the people I stayed with, she said to me, "But you are a nomad." I would go to conferences all over the world, to Israel and to America.
• 36:22
  Bubbles: And then one of my, uh, Alan Zimbler, who w- again, was an incredible gestalt therapist, and I, we did the very first multiracial gestalt group in South Africa.
• 36:34
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 36:34
  Bubbles: We had Blacks, we had whites, we had Indians, we had coloreds.
• 36:38
  Bubbles: We had the whole gamut, and we showed it at a conference in New York year, a, a couple of years later.
• 36:45
  Bubbles: So that was very wonderful work, you know.
• 36:48
  Bubbles: That was really special that we could do that.
• 36:51
  Tracy: That's beautiful.
• 36:51
  Bubbles: And I had, you know, and it came through my… When I did the Termatis, I had many of the Blacks who were at that time in the ANC, who would come through with their children.
• 37:02
  Bubbles: So-
• 37:03
  Tracy: What, sorry, what's the ANC?
• 37:05
  Bubbles: The A- the AN- the, um, African National Conf- Congress.
• 37:10
  Bubbles: They're the ones that, that Mandela put in power.
• 37:14
  Tracy: Okay.
• 37:15
  Tracy: So this is around the time of apartheid?
• 37:18
  Bubbles: Yes.
• 37:19
  Tracy: Okay.
• 37:19
  Bubbles: Very much so.
• 37:20
  Bubbles: Mm,
• 37:21
  Tracy: yeah.
• 37:21
  Bubbles: This was in the '80s And, and '90s
• 37:25
  Tracy: Yeah So the
• 37:25
  Bubbles: late '80s and '90s
• 37:28
  Tracy: I remember, I remember, um, you know, I was only … I was born at, I was born at the very end of the '60s, and so it would've been about 1979, '80.
• 37:39
  Tracy: I was about
• 37:40
  Bubbles: 10
• 37:40
  Tracy: Yeah 10, 10.
• 37:42
  Tracy: Maybe it was '81, '11.
• 37:44
  Tracy: Um, and there was a big thing here around apartheid, with South Africa coming to- Right.
• 37:51
  Tracy: Yeah … play rugby, and there was n- um,
• 37:55
  Bubbles: a massive- They wouldn't let them come,
• 37:56
  Tracy: I think.
• 37:56
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 37:56
  Tracy: We had massive protests because, um, I think they, they … You weren't al- there was only whites allowed on the team, or something like that.
• 38:04
  Tracy: This is my
• 38:06
  Bubbles: understanding.
• 38:06
  Bubbles: Yeah.
• 38:06
  Bubbles: Uh,
• 38:06
  Tracy: definitely.
• 38:06
  Tracy: And, you know, New Zealand being New Zealand, we, we had protests.
• 38:11
  Tracy: But I was up there at 10 years old with my, um, with, with my family that I sort of chose to be my other family that I had, uh, was very, very close with.
• 38:24
  Tracy: And we were out there protesting, and, um, it was very, very- touching in, in- Well- I think it made a difference.
• 38:32
  Tracy: It kind of seemed to signal-
• 38:33
  Bubbles: Yes… Tracy: to the world.
• 38:36
  Bubbles: Absolutely, and vitally so.
• 38:38
  Bubbles: It's funny because only last night, Tracy, on, on the Arts Channel they did a whole d- uh, documentary about the South African protests, about the South African story.
• 38:51
  Bubbles: Mm. And they showed you the protests and all in the world, the Americans and the English, and I didn't know that they had done it here in New Zealand as well, but the protests in London, they had thousands, hundreds and thousands of people-
• 39:06
  Tracy: Mm
• 39:07
  Bubbles: protesting about letting Mandela out.
• 39:10
  Bubbles: It was interesting because I had never realized the extent of the world protest that we had just before Mandela was released.
• 39:19
  Bubbles: And they showed him - Wow … how he talked and how he tried to work with them.
• 39:23
  Bubbles: It was such an interesting documentary for me to see because it showed a lot of things I'd not actually recognized or been aware of.
• 39:31
  Bubbles: Yeah.
• 39:31
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 39:32
  Bubbles: It was very interesting.
• 39:34
  Bubbles: But, you know, because I set up centers in Johannesburg as well as Cape Town for Noeline, my daughter, and she worked with Alexander Technique, and of course the Termatis because she was part of their training.
• 39:47
  Bubbles: She had c- she had clients from the ANC who would come to her, and she worked with them, a lot of them.
• 39:54
  Bubbles: So she worked with a lot of Blacks.
• 39:56
  Tracy: Wow.
• 39:57
  Bubbles: Beautiful.
• 39:57
  Bubbles: As well as having a black child herself in the end.
• 40:00
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 40:00
  Bubbles: So, you know, that was… it, it, it's been a very, it's been a very interesting, you know, the whole world was very much part of that.
• 40:10
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 40:11
  Tracy: So coming back to my ques- my thing about you're in New Zealand.
• 40:15
  Tracy: How did you get to, to be in New Zealand- Well- … for
• 40:20
  Bubbles: those who don't know?
• 40:20
  Bubbles: Okay.
• 40:20
  Bubbles: The point is the children came in 2008 because in our street right next door there was so much crime, and one guy had just been shot dead on his birthday.
• 40:31
  Bubbles: And apparently Noel's husband said,"That's it. We're leaving." His brother had come to New Zealand and said it was magnificent.
• 40:39
  Bubbles: Robin said, "I'm going, and we're going," and so they went.
• 40:42
  Bubbles: They sold their house, and they went in 2008 and they came to Auckland.
• 40:48
  Bubbles: And they were here, and then I had to go back to Cape Town.
• 40:53
  Bubbles: And eventually, in 2012, 2011, 2012, the home I was renting was sold, and I said, "I'm coming to New Zealand." And I'd come a couple of times.
• 41:08
  Bubbles: I'd come once in 2011.
• 41:11
  Bubbles: In 2012, I got a visitor's visa, and I started coming, and here I am.
• 41:16
  Tracy: So when you immigrated, how old were you?
• 41:20
  Bubbles: Um, well, I'm 96 now, and I've been here not… well, since 2012.
• 41:29
  Bubbles: So that is-
• 41:31
  Tracy: 14
• 41:37
  Bubbles: years.
• 41:37
  Bubbles: Yes.
• 41:37
  Tracy: How old- And you were 82.
• 41:38
  Tracy: 80-something, yes.
• 41:38
  Tracy: 82. Fantastic.
• 41:40
  Bubbles: Yeah.
• 41:41
  Tracy: Not too many people are gonna immigrate at 82.
• 41:44
  Bubbles: Right.
• 41:45
  Bubbles: Yeah.
• 41:45
  Bubbles: Well, I must tell you, I was enchanted coming here, because at the time, South Africa was the most crime-ridden place you could ever be, you know?
• 41:55
  Bubbles: And I used to think, "We're the…" You know, people were living behind bars and electric fences, and God knows what.
• 42:00
  Bubbles: And I thought, "Well, we're the criminals living behind the gates, and you are the f- you know, the criminals are walking free." So I thought it was time to leave.
• 42:09
  Bubbles: Mm. And having said that, you know, all my family, my daughters, their children, are all in South Africa, happily so still.
• 42:19
  Bubbles: So there it is.
• 42:21
  Bubbles: But I was ecstatic coming here.
• 42:23
  Bubbles: I loved being here.
• 42:24
  Bubbles: I loved the country.
• 42:26
  Bubbles: I loved that it was clean.
• 42:28
  Bubbles: I loved that you could leave a door open, that you could open a window and it didn't have to have bars.
• 42:33
  Bubbles: Yeah.
• 42:34
  Bubbles: I mean, it was the most expe- it was the most wonderfully freeing experience.
• 42:38
  Bubbles: You could walk anywhere, and you didn't have to look over your shoulder.
• 42:42
  Bubbles: You could, you know, you could leave, you could leave a purse somewhere, and somebody would pick it up and return it to you.
• 42:51
  Bubbles: I mean, it was really a, a, a total new experience.
• 42:55
  Tracy: Mm. That's fascinating.
• 42:56
  Bubbles: So it was really a, a very big, very big plus.
• 43:00
  Tracy: Yeah, and brave.
• 43:01
  Tracy: So brave of you to, to do that.
• 43:03
  Tracy: And, uh, I think I met you in around, I think it was about 2000 and… I met you in 2000-
• 43:08
  Bubbles: Yes.
• 43:09
  Bubbles: That's right … um- We were still in Auckland then.
• 43:11
  Tracy: You were in Auckland, yeah.
• 43:12
  Tracy: And then now you're in Te Puke, and, and we had the pleasure of having you come and run a workshop at, at our immersion in, uh, in the Rotorua this year.
• 43:22
  Tracy: Well, I
• 43:22
  Bubbles: really did enjoy doing that, you know, uh, Tracy.
• 43:26
  Bubbles: I didn't think I could, but I really did enjoy doing that.
• 43:29
  Tracy: And, and part of that is, you know, 96, and you have got, um, some struggles with your vision, right?
• 43:38
  Bubbles: Indeed.
• 43:39
  Bubbles: So you know what I've done o- well, anyway, I'm not going to go into it 'cause it's not interesting to put on a recording.
• 43:45
  Bubbles: But yes, I have been trying to do something.
• 43:48
  Bubbles: Well- And I will go back at the end of October to Auckland to see if it's made any difference.
• 43:53
  Bubbles: I went for some light therapy.
• 43:55
  Tracy: Some light therapy, exactly.
• 43:57
  Tracy: Trying, trying some different, um, things.
• 44:00
  Tracy: Now, you and I, I'm just gonna get the dates here.
• 44:03
  Tracy: Uh, I'm hosting you.
• 44:05
  Tracy: You're gonna come and, and share some of your wisdom, your many years of brilliant wisdom.
• 44:13
  Tracy: Uh, we have got October the 14th and the 21st.
• 44:18
  Bubbles: 11th.
• 44:19
  Bubbles: Right.
• 44:20
  Tracy: It's a two-part workshop And, um, hold on, let me just open it again to see if I can remember what we were going to do, Siobhan.
• 44:29
  Bubbles: Uh, we're doing,"I take you as you are,"
• 44:31
  Tracy: remember?
• 44:32
  Tracy: Oh, I take you as you are.
• 44:33
  Tracy: That exa- that's right.
• 44:35
  Tracy: Just remembered as soon as I said that.
• 44:38
  Tracy: You know how the field works.
• 44:41
  Tracy: Which is a fabulous subject to be constellating, right, or to bring into the field and to ask, ask that- Bubbles: I know… Tracy: of people.
• 44:50
  Tracy: Um- Can you share a little bit about that?
• 44:52
  Tracy: Because this would be a good place for people to, yeah, to understand a little bit more.
• 44:56
  Bubbles: Well, you know, one of the things that I think is so serious about it is that it demands a level of maturity because it demands that you can allow the other to be who they are without them having to be somebody that's good for you.
• 45:15
  Bubbles: So it is a very demanding, and in a sense it demands a kind of separateness, you know, that you can, as they say in Gestalt, "I am I and you are you." Yeah.
• 45:26
  Tracy: So, so this would be good for someone who's, is maybe in a, in a challenging relationship, whether it's with-
• 45:33
  Bubbles: Yes… Tracy: a family member, a lover, or a- Absolutely.
• 45:42
  Bubbles: A boss certainly, and also particularly how I've seen it recently in, in people who have partners or, you know, whom they want to behave in certain ways.
• 45:53
  Bubbles: And of course when they don't, then that means that, you know, it can't, the relationship can't endure.
• 45:59
  Bubbles: So there is a very big thing for a partner when you're actually not making them do what you require.
• 46:08
  Bubbles: And the trouble with meeting one's needs in that way is that it, it comes from a very early form of development.
• 46:18
  Bubbles: Your need for the other to provide what's good for you really starts in infancy.
• 46:25
  Bubbles: It really starts with mother, who has to understand you without you having to say anything.
• 46:31
  Bubbles: I do think that that's what's important here, is that you don't have to ask.
• 46:36
  Bubbles: You don't have to tell them even.
• 46:38
  Bubbles: They need to understand you.
• 46:41
  Bubbles: And you know, when we talk to people, one of the important things they love to say to you is, "I felt understood, and often I felt understood without my having to explain." And that's often what the need of the other is, that they will know what's good for me and how to behave without my having to do anything, as I did as an infant.
• 47:06
  Bubbles: Mother had to understand how best to hold me, feed me, generally be there for me
• 47:14
  Tracy: Hmm
• 47:15
  Bubbles: And often that is what, you know, gets in the way, and we can't let it go.
• 47:22
  Bubbles: It's very painful to let that go
• 47:25
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 47:25
  Tracy: And, and even I'm just thinking, you know, if someone, say s- someone was looking for a potential partner, right?
• 47:32
  Tracy: Right.
• 47:32
  Tracy: It could be good to do this, to look at this for themselves, um, to see what might be blocking that if there's an unconscious thread in there that is still sitting with that need from Behind them
• 47:47
  Bubbles: Well, I think it, you're quite right.
• 47:49
  Bubbles: It does need some work, and again, it's behind the statement of it's got to be either Mr.
• 47:55
  Bubbles: Right or Mrs. Right.
• 47:57
  Bubbles: In other words, gotta be the right person.
• 48:00
  Bubbles: Can't just be anybody.
• 48:02
  Bubbles: It's got to be either r- and by the right person we mean the one who will, in quotes, understand me.
• 48:08
  Tracy: It's a very deep subject, and we're, and we're doing- Yeah … two n- two week, i- two- Yeah … evenings of it.
• 48:15
  Bubbles: Yeah.
• 48:15
  Tracy: Um, and so if anyone's listening and they want to know a little bit more, it will be on my website.
• 48:22
  Tracy: Okay.
• 48:22
  Tracy: Um, under the events section, and, and I'm just gonna share this here and, and you can tell me if you want me to, to edit this out or not.
• 48:30
  Tracy: But the funds from this is going to support you with getting some therapy and, um, helping you with your eyesight.
• 48:41
  Bubbles: Absolutely.
• 48:41
  Bubbles: Absolutely, darling.
• 48:42
  Bubbles: I can't tell you how grateful I am for that, 'cause I still have to go back, and I still don't even have the funds for the trip.
• 48:50
  Bubbles: So-
• 48:51
  Tracy: And do you know, uh, sorry, at 96, Bubbles is bravely getting on an airplane from Tauranga to Auckland by herself-… and getting taxis to this therapy and then back again, in the same day.
• 49:07
  Bubbles: Yes.
• 49:08
  Tracy: At 96, and you can't see, um, a, a foot in front of you.
• 49:12
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 49:12
  Tracy: So
• 49:12
  Bubbles: I
• 49:13
  Tracy: just, hats off to you, Bubbles.
• 49:15
  Tracy: You're just amazing.
• 49:16
  Tracy: You're a fantastically fabulous woman.
• 49:19
  Bubbles: Well, I've had a help, I must say.
• 49:20
  Bubbles: Thank God for that.
• 49:22
  Tracy: Sorry?
• 49:23
  Bubbles: I've had a wonderful help, I thank God for that, a taxi man- Taxi man… who has been kind enough to take me, you know, to, to, to shepherd me to Auckland Airport and take me to where I have to go.
• 49:38
  Tracy: So you've found yourself a little taxi angel who's been- Yep shepherding, shepherding you around.
• 49:43
  Tracy: And, and you've had family and friends that have supported you, I know that- Yeah … to, uh, make it available so far, and the future funds will go to supporting you- Absolutely… for more, which is brilliant.
• 49:57
  Tracy: So if anyone's listening to this and you wanna join us.
• 50:00
  Tracy: I can't see without- We will record it also, so if you can't make it, so say you're in a time zone where you can't make it live- Then it will be recorded, and- Yeah you can be part of that.
• 50:12
  Bubbles: Well, I have to thank you, Tracey.
• 50:15
  Bubbles: It means a lot to me to be able to share all this with you.
• 50:19
  Bubbles: It really does.
• 50:20
  Bubbles: It kind of, you know, when you asked me about it and I thought, "What am I going to say?" It kind of brought back lots of memories for me, and it brings it to life in a way that really has made it meaningful, and I am really grateful to you for, for, for doing this with me.
• 50:35
  Bubbles: Thank you, darling.
• 50:36
  Tracy: You're welcome.
• 50:37
  Tracy: And I love hearing your stories.
• 50:39
  Tracy: You've got so much to share.
• 50:41
  Tracy: You've had such a colorful life.
• 50:43
  Tracy: It's been fabulous.
• 50:44
  Tracy: I aspire to be as- … witty, wise, and as spunky as you when I'm 96.
• 50:52
  Bubbles: I wish it to you, darling.
• 50:54
  Bubbles: God.
• 50:54
  Tracy: Thank you so much, Bubbles.
• 50:55
  Tracy: We're going to, um, we're gonna close here.
• 50:57
  Tracy: But before we do- Oh, yes … is there anything that, um… Oh, so you are still seeing clients, is that correct?
• 51:04
  Bubbles: Yeah, absolutely.
• 51:06
  Tracy: So if someone, you can have an online session with, um, with Bubbles.
• 51:10
  Tracy: And how would they get in touch with you?
• 51:12
  Bubbles: Well, I've got an email address, which is bubbleslevinson@gmail.com.
• 51:18
  Tracy: Okay.
• 51:20
  Bubbles: Or a phone, which is +64, WhatsApp, +64 220853580.
• 51:32
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 51:33
  Tracy: And Bubbles has an assistant that can, uh, read the texts and things for her, and, uh-
• 51:40
  Bubbles: Yeah… Tracy: yeah.
• 51:41
  Bubbles: So.
• 51:41
  Bubbles: She's invaluable to me.
• 51:42
  Bubbles: She really does help me so much.
• 51:44
  Tracy: Yeah, with
• 51:45
  Bubbles: those And, but I'm still working obviously online, you know.
• 51:49
  Bubbles: Interesting, I have a lot of Indian clients and people from literally all over the world.
• 51:54
  Bubbles: It's quite interesting.
• 51:55
  Bubbles: It's good.
• 51:56
  Tracy: Mm. Beautiful.
• 51:57
  Tracy: Thank you so much, Bubbles.
• 51:59
  Bubbles: Um- All right, darling, and thank you again.
• 52:01
  Bubbles: You know I'm so deeply grateful to you.
• 52:04
  Tracy: My pleasure.
• 52:05
  Bubbles: Thank you.
• 52:07
  Tracy: Thank you for listening.
• 52:08
  Tracy: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 52:13
  Tracy: You'll find me at tracey.cartwright, that's Tracey with no E, .cartwright.
• 52:19
  Tracy: And, or head over to my website traceycartwright.co.nz, and receive a free audio with a gift from your ancestors.
• 52:29
  Tracy: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.