Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / The Super CMO Show - Amit Tiwari (#004)

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The Super CMO Show - Amit Tiwari (#004) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody is running their own particular agenda with the entire brand.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: Brand is one, my objective is one, but I'm actually being treated in four or five different ways to look for.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: In a classical way, which I which I give in an example, boss, I I have a I have a throat infection, fever, and all, but I am giving a separate treatment for fever.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: I've been given a separate treatment for my throat ailment.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: I have separate beef for something else.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: I am the same person.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: So the point which I was actually drawing is that there has to be, and that's what I always expect that, and there's there's a unified briefing format, and there's a unified briefing platform which I use, and I believe in terms of using it.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Anything that has to be developed from a anything means anything, whether it's an event, whether it's a PR uh launch, whether it is to do with uh digital, whether it is to do with social, with content, all have to be briefed together, and I want to see a plan together.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Whether you work for whatever agencies, but it's a it's a very, very difficult task.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'll be playing because you have the teams.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: I would have attended some meetings, but it becomes very difficult for the teams to actually coordinate with so many people to get a file.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: But end of the day, I want to see a one unified plan.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not interested because my customer set remains the one.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: It is not different in bifurcated and a different plans to look for.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Vagencies are not geared up for that.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Amit.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks a lot for uh joining in ContraMinds and in this podcast.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's lovely to have you as a guest, and I'm really looking forward to a very enriching conversation.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, uh Swami.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: This is this is a fantastic uh proposition on the platform.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um more than happy to see how I can contribute and how my particular discussion with you makes uh sense.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: I lovely to be here.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks a lot, Amit.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: So Amit, I uh wanted to start off with uh uh you know uh where did you really uh you know begin your life with marketing, right?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because you've almost uh you know spent a whole uh you know more than a couple of decades in marketing.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore, uh, where did your interest in marketing start?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: And can you just take me back to where this uh trigger and in interest in marketing came in?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: So uh Swami, this is this is something a very, very interesting question.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: We also try to do, and and when I speak with my family and a lot of things, and I also go back with my particular uh flashback.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so uh when I was doing my first particular interact or interaction with my first MBA, and there were a lot of interactions happening in terms of uh, and frankly speaking, uh I was I was never been too much interested because I was not known about marketing, what exactly marketers do and how does it actually look for?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: So during one of the interactions for the uh summer internship uh for summer trainings, uh I attended one of the sessions uh primarily for one of the advertising agencies trying to share what exactly the roles would be, how it can actually shape.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I started gaining some momentum, started learning about it.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: There were not too much of avenues, you're not too much of uh people you can reach out who can actually talk about uh the maximum that you can use in some of the uh newspaper which used to have some weekly magazines, can talk about money, but not depth.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: And when you are a when obviously we're talking about more than two and a half decades before uh the avenues to understand and go to people who were surveyed, unlike today, that you can just reach out to somebody and you can have a discussion moving forward.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: That intrigued my particular interest, and then I picked up one of the organizations as my particular summer training part.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let me give it a try.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: I have never tried uh marketing, I've never tried advertising to start with.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: So let me try, and from that, that journey uh starting from 2000, 2001, became my particular interest, and that becomes the parents.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: And and frankly speaking, I didn't like anything apart from marketing from that because that that gives me that uh feel of it.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: So uh Amit, you actually today are probably in one of the most uh you know interesting positions in the country, uh running probably one of the largest uh you know IT services firms uh out of India, and uh you have a very interesting uh you know role called uh you run the global demand center.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so how do you see the global demand center running for a very, very large organization like uh uh you know TCS?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you see Indian organizations really when they go global, where do you see what you do today relevant to the Indian organizations?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: See Swami, but one thing is if you see what exactly uh is the necessity today, and specifically from the technology uh services uh portfolio is you really need to have something which provides you end-to-end uh uh thing.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: When I say end-to-end, it's not about only delivering a marketing plan end-to-end, but it actually has to put all the threads of end-to-end that you do.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: And when I if I just want to uh take a step back and actually talk about what exactly is the role of a demand center, so it is basically in one line, it is messaging to measurement.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: Everything and anything under this particular garb is what a global demand center does, and any particular person in marketing has to know all these particular pillars together because if I don't know what messaging I'm trying to do, what propositions and what positioning I'm through, and I don't know what I'm actually trying to measure, the ends will not meet.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: And anything and everything within that is absolutely in terms of managing.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: The beauty of this particular portfolio is it actually gives you uh length and breadth of understanding each and every corner of marketing, not only from in terms of executing that, but what's the resultant impact of doing that?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that that's that's the first part of the uh question that you actually asked for.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you talk about Indian organizations or the lot of multiple multinational organizations within the framework of India or globally, are trying to implement the same particular model.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, reason being is because that that gives you a lot of scale in terms of and also in terms of measurability, what you're actually trying to do.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, and and so we know who better than you know that one question which actually lies in every particular marketing head, or just just like a sword in a head, whether this is impactful, whether it was not impactful.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and frankly speaking, uh, the one thing which everybody and actually I have been hearing more than I think I would have heard any chance is what is an ROI for it.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: And one thing which which I realized it's it's not about an ROI of a uh financial matter that this is return on investment.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: The if you ask me from a marketing standpoint for two and a half decades that look for its return on investments rather than return on investment investment, it is a return on insights and also return on innovation that you actually do because that that's the veracity that a particular marketing portfolio gives to.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: So any particular organization going for has to look into how can you actually bring every silos of marketing under one particular graph which can give you an end-to-end activity that you want to do or end-to-end program that you do.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about only a campaign, it's not about only one particular Fortnite that you actually look for, it's it's entire continuous tense or continuous program that you actually build in.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: That is how entire demand center actually does.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it is very beneficial because it's not about having the one view of the customer, it's also about having one view of your activity that you do across the touch point, whatever you do, whether it's communication, whether it's content, whether it's contents indication, anything that you actually do gives you a particular veracity to look into what is the actual impact and how you can actually improve and get that particular ducks connected with your customer or consumer.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Great, great, Amit.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, on that note, I wanted to really uh you know pull back and uh look at the world of marketing.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, you used a very important uh you know uh statement, which you said marketing is not just about campaigns, right?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so how do you think marketing can get a seat on the table of the CEO?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: And how can you make a difference?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, if you are a marketer today, uh what does the CEO need from marketing?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, how do you get the most important seat on the table?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because I believe uh many marketers have vacated that seat on the table over the last uh you know decade or so.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is the most important learning that you've had which marketing needs to do to get the seat in the table with the CEO?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: See, uh Swami, this is this is a very, very uh relevant, and I think this is the most apt question today.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody is asking.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's not about only the CEO, it's even the marketers.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: What is my relevance in the entire organization that I shall look for?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: How do I actually say because everything, and I think you'd have also you would also agree with me, everybody talks about marketing as a cost center, and I firmly believe marketing is not a cost center because marketing decides in terms and the way things are moving.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'll I'll just uh for 30 seconds I'll digress in terms of why do I say so.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: See, life of consumer, life of customer, and life of marketers, these three have been hugely impacted in the last two years of COVID.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: What you used to do, what we used to think, and what we used to act before was very, very different from what we do today.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: People use a work called BC, which is before Christ.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: No, it is not before Christ, before COVID, and DC is not about direct current, it's about it's about during COVID, and AC is about after COVID, and it has actually impacted.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll tell you, these are not just an acronym to put it across as a part of marketing because marketing always blame that people come with new acronyms and new uh variations, but that that's not the case to really.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: The reason what has happened today is everybody today in the marketing that actually look for needs very, very three basic things that actually worked in this entire corner, and that's why this particular code, because people see that there's no point in terms of having a tom-tom about marketing when you don't really touch to the organization, an organization can't touch to that particular customer or consumer.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: The first and most, you have to be an agile marketer, and that's the first learning that that COVID and last week has you can't be making a plan for two years, and then you know that this two-year plan is just a theoretical exercise and it will not be got implemented.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be always on the toes, and you should have that flexibility to move the way the consumer and the macroeconomic situation move.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and most importantly, is in terms of interdependently that that is very important today.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: You just can't have a silo working within marketing or outside marketing within the organization, that that's most important.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: Last but not the least, which is actually gives you a right matrix or right conversation to drive it within the leadership or the management, is accountability.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Is marketing keeping the hand to the heart can take that particular accountability, saying, Hey, yes, this is the objective, I am ready to take this particular accountability of what I need to deliver.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that is what I need to.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: The only thing, and that which is the most important thing that that as a marketer, I feel and I have a lot of discussion and debates in a lot of forums that I do the paper, the columns that I write, is please don't caveat marketing only in terms of this is the financial ROI, and please deliver that.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: Let marketing present their own particular matrix that you want to and measure the matrix, get in make which is relevant for marketing.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: If you ask me, three things very important, which is also just to sum up this particular uh idea, three T's, which is trust, transparency, and technology.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: The trust within the organization, within the marketing team that we have to collaborately, interdependently deliver, transparency with your particular customer, because customer is 500 steps ahead that you actually think.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: But because what most of the marketers do is to fail to understand and accept that customer is much more smart, customers know much more things, and the most important to connect these particular things is technology.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: So today I have seen people, and that's how again coming back to the change of the entire orientation, the way the entire customer decision journeys have changed.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: The customer digital journeys have also changed.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: People at the age of 80, 84 years have started adopting going on online shopping, which never heard of.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: People have started adapting saying online payments that which they've never secured of.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: I can tell you uh some of the people whom I've interacted as part of one of the programs that I used to do as a regular visit to customers to find out.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: And uh one particular young chap was talking about that my father is 84 years of age.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: Every time when I call order something online and make a payment, he used to curse me.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: That you don't know where the money will go, and tomorrow you'll come crying that the money has actually gone.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: In the time of COVID, said this is the best thing that we have at our house that we can actually do something from an online payment to deliver.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, this is this is what I think uh Swami is very important and very relevant today because marketing will only get a seat when you actually stand up and say, This is what I'm accountable for, and please measure me, this is what for which I'm accountable, rather than just one particular size which actually is trying to measure everything on the entire uh table.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, so what are you uh so uh so what I understand you say uh in summary is uh you are saying uh marketing has to measure itself on how it impacts business.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you think is the most important?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, and obviously, marketing should raise the hand first and say, Hey, please measure me on these point parameters.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: I am ready to get measured.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: If this is the objective, I'm ready to contribute, and that is what I really want to measure in the entire uh proposition that you're actually trying to do.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that will actually show an impact on business, and that will actually show an impact on brand if you measure the right measurement that you need to bring for.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, so I want to uh you know dig a little deeper into this uh point that you made.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so whenever you look at marketing measurements, uh the real challenge that probably the board or the CEO uh really faces is you know what the CMO comes and says, uh, you know, my brand awareness scores have gone very high.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I have one a lot of uh you know top of mind recall because of my media plans about the brand.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he would actually or she would actually keep presenting these uh measures, but actually uh, you know, the sales may not have happened.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so there is this big conflict or misalignment between the metrics that a CMO or a marketing head presents versus the real business metrics where probably the board measures the CX source, and how do you really reconcile to that?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think uh Swami uh absolutely valid uh observation, and what happens, and that's what I said what happens today is the marketing decides their own particular KPIs in the measurement, and that is what happens most of the time, it is not linked or partly linked with what the other particular part the organization look for.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: The audience set, and I'll tell you before even getting audience sets, are also very, very different from that actually look for the first thing that is a marketing that I should look for, and I think going forward, that is how the organization for the future will also like from a marketing standpoint is there has to be one particular standard unified matrix measurement, which can actually define if whether it is sales, whether it is marketing, whether it is advertising, these are the parameters has to be measured on which the marketing success for an entire particular activity you call it, campaign you call it marketing program that to happen whether it's a short term, whether it's long term, that has to be measured.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: What would normally do today, and I have seen most of the time in most of the different industries that I work for is everybody comes with their own particular set of measurements.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that's a not a right measurement to actually look for.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: If if my job is provided for sales enablement, if my job is for only for uh engagement, if my objective is primarily for awareness, everything can't deliver you what the sales that you look for.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Everything has a different contribution in the way you actually build and across.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to have a very clear understanding of matrix, and and that's what I said.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: What happens is for me, and because of a lot of conversation which marketing doesn't drive or not being part of that conversation, you always get something which is on your head, which is decided this is what your KPI has to be to.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: That narrative has to be changed because that conversation needs to change from a marketer saying, please measure me and please measure me on these 10 parameters, because this is what my relevant parameters are, and it is it is just like saying that if I'm a heart patient and you're saying, boss, everything is fine, but end of the day, your hair fall is very high.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, how does it actually fit into the entire particular bill?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm talking about a heartbeat rate, I have I have a heart issue, but you're talking about no hairfall is one of the symptoms that need to work.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't work in it, doesn't work in any of the industries uh to build it.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: The only thing is to get that particular conversation right with the right matrix in terms of the alignment.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because what happens is obviously this question comes to marketers and in sense.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: I am representing a fertility of marketing today.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: What happens today?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: Market is also shy in terms of having those conversations.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Whether I'll be able to deliver, if you have any, if you're not convinced what you need to do, don't go.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: Just take a step back and stand up and say, No, I will not be able to deliver.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's fine.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: But doing a dissection and doing an entire particular cut through tomorrow, when you think that the things have not worked, it will not work.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: If if I'm actually trying to uh run a marathon, but I'm trying to gauge the speed of 100 meters, it'll never work, it will never work in that uh balance.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so I do remember, Amit, uh, you know, many years back when I was talking to you, uh, you were actually running uh organization where while you were the CMO, uh you also called yourself a business head, right?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think we have had conversations around you know your manufacturing uh you know uh timelines, we have talked about distribution challenges, okay.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, many things that we have spoken about.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you have played a role of not just a CMO, but you have played a role of actually owning a business vertical and running it.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, how was the experience different?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, uh, you know, if you were only a CMO, uh what are the points that you miss if you are running a business?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if you are running a business, what were the what are the points that a business head fails to see from a CMO?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so very, very uh interesting to keep questions on me.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: So see, one thing which is which is very, very uh important when you actually see.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: I have always believed and I have to say I am I am not a support function, I'm I'm a business function that I've always believed in.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's what my conviction is.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and there are a lot of data and stats which I've shown it to a lot of uh places.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I work for organizations where you also have to appear for the uh board in terms of proving, and and you know, uh most of the board members will not agree in terms of how does market, and you really need to you need to literally work not only hard, but also in terms of a lot of logics that you need to put with data.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: One thing which which I have always learned from this thing is anything that has to have, and that's what I I find and I use this word very uh smartly is data-driven operating marketing and data-driven operating model very important.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about what I think, it's not about somebody else thing.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: This is what the data on table.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: We may agree, we may disagree, we can distribute dispute on that.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: That that's perfectly fine uh in terms of it.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: One thing which which normally doesn't happen or largely uh happen in very, very small pieces is primarily primarily in terms of how to can have a meaningful conversation rather than it is just between a marketing head or a CMO talking about or somebody from a sales or a business talking about.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that's what actually thing.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Most important thing between and that's what I I always call that my partnership and my running in with most of the uh sales head businesses have been very, very fantastic because first question that is what is the problem that I can solve along with you?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: It is not that I want to run my marketing agenda, you have to run your business.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: No, that that's the first thing uh that what that changed the entire narrative the way people look for.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: That he is trying to help me in the goals that I am trying to, and that has to be the marketing goal today.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: When I say this, it is not about saying that marketing should not be a cost engine.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: A sentence or a statement will not make any difference.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: The difference is can you able to deliver with that business?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: If the challenge of the business, let's say, is to grow by 25% year on year or to be the number one or number two player in that category, you can't give him something saying, boss, I want to won the best awards in marketing.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: That conversation falls and fails there only.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Now, the coming to the second part, uh Swami, that you talked about, in terms of if if as a as a business head, what I actually uh if if I understood the right is in terms of what I lack as a business head or what I actually uh from a marketing head, what I lack from a marketing.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think one thing which which which few or the most of the business heads actually try to fail because it's it's maybe because of the too many things on their plate and all, is in terms of seeing the big picture approach.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: That whatever you do in marketing today should not be very myopic to four or five or six weeks uh as a particular thing.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: Think from a larger thing, think from always on that you can actually build because brand is built 365 days, it's built 24 by 7.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about when you build a and it's not about done through only advertising and campaign.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: Every particular touch touch point, right the from a retail to a customer service to a reception to people interacting with that customer, it actually builds uh the entire uh thing, which which I think uh is is little myopic from because they say about my target is this quarter or this particular month.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: So don't give me something which which I can look for six months.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that's that's that's that's one thing we should look for it when it comes from a uh from a marketing to look for it, and and I would I would have also done I would I would be very uh I would uh I would not be uh I think uh hundred percent if I say no, I have marketing also sometimes actually give it up after saying that because end of the day it's a business problem.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: Let them handle it.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do what the problem it is.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think I would with all conventional, I would have also done uh in my it doesn't work, it doesn't work in today's uh scenario.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh which which people which doesn't want to uh look for it.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Few minutes back when I just uh talking about uh one particular term which which I always believe is interdependability is very very important, whether it is business or marketing or marketing or business, silo working will actually it will hamper you, it will hamper your function, it will hamper the business and overall the organization and the brand uh to look for.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that that that's something which would be very, very difficult if you don't manage then most of the time you have I've seen in most and specifically in a very very high involvement consumer durables where I've actually worked, where half of the time of the discussion of the meeting only goes putting in terms of this the numbers have not happened, the blame goes to whom.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: Which will which will actually because end of the day, this this entire particular debate will not suffice anything, neither the numbers will go up, nor the objective.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's better to collaborate, it's better to actually understand the objective, and the last is to marry those objectives collectively.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: The objective has to be the business, the objective has to be marketing, but it's not uh purposely different because I always believe in one philosophy which most of my particular seniors and bosses and professors told marketing is not a function of or, it's a function of and.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: So it is has to plus it has to add what you're actually trying to.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Do in the entire spectrum.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: So uh very very nicely put the and and the or example was brilliant.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so in your uh uh you know uh earlier role, uh you did play that.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: So uh give me an example of uh how did you break these challenges?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because at one end you need you have a market share commitment, at the other end, you have dealers squeezing you on margins, okay.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: The other end, you probably may have not enough production in your factory, okay.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh then there is somebody running a marketing campaign, you know, there is somebody saying I want mass media, somebody saying I want digital, but how do you really balance this?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that you have done this in one of the roles, and therefore, uh, how did you really balance uh you know uh handle all these contradictions?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: No, so Swami marketing, and I'll say marketing is a function where everybody and anybody can actually come and actually have a point of view on whatever you do.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: That that's that's what it is happened.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: So anybody, and I think it it's a very open function.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: I completely agree, and everybody has its point of view, whether it's whether it's creativity, whether it's strategy, and all.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: But what I always feel and not always think is first, and that's what we did with um in one of the roles which I actually handled, there were there were almost 32 categories.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and you 32 categories, and every category wants to, and and there are there are business sets who have five or six categories within them, and they will fight for that.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: All the five or six categories needs to be prominently done, if not only from a budget standpoint, but also from visibility standpoint.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: If you actually divide 52 weeks and if you put 32 particular categories, and if if let's say, for example, 25 categories has to be on it on uh always visible, humanly not possible because it's not only the budget challenge, but it's also in terms of there's so much of confusion that actually happens.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: The first and the foremost step, which I uh as a practice which I follow is to stand up with a particular or have a collaborative approach with that particular business and saying, boss, let's decide our priorities.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: And the priorities has two simple matrix in one particular simple drawing board.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: What is my business priorities and what is my brand priorities?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because end of the day, those particular categories should contribute to the master brand, and vice versa, the master brand has to contribute to those particular categories.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's some categories we collectively take with a call, but the numbers from business and numbers from your particular uh data doesn't show that we should promote it in a very high way.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: Let's try and find a smart way to do it and let's start having.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: I I would have done almost with 18 such meetings before the year begins.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: So normally I've started doing it from the month of November so that the fresh year can actually get into the entire particular planning.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Most important is getting your business and marketing planning aligned.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: It will never work that and now mostly people say I'm making my marketing plan.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: No meaning of that marketing plan till the time your business plan is actually aligned to it.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: And there are many, I have I have done most of the mistakes in my previous assignments and all.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: We will create in fantastic, we'll close our marketing plans, we'll close our everything before the year starts.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: But it is not a buying off from a business.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what's the point in terms of those?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I learned a very hard way in terms was it will not work, and and it doesn't work in those particular things.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: It has to have one particular planning matrix.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: This is what we are actually trying to plan, keeping both the objectives in time.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: And let's let's review it every every particular month rather than quarter.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: We may we may decide something doesn't work because as you rightly said, sometimes manufacturing doesn't support, sometimes you don't get the product on time.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: You want to you decided a date that you want to do a Diwali launch and specifically in a consumer durable industry, Diwali launch something becomes very big.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: You don't get it.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: Fine.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: What is my plan B?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: How can I actually move from that?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: And again, coming to the point for me, every duct has to be connected and threatened together.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it is not about that I will think about advertising once I will see the plan or once I my product will no.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think if you have to do an advertising, what is the advertising will play a role in that entire particular business orientation that needs to how does the business will get benefit?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about I want to make 10 different creatives and I want to look for it.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: Your true sense of awards is the true sense of meeting the matrix for the business rather than I have applied for 10 awards and I got all the awards for it.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: And tomorrow, when your particular business had stand up and say, boss, today this is what you will achieve because of marketing support, this is what the marketing has delivered.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think your award is already done.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: So coming to the to the crux of this particular point is I think it's about complete aligned planning that you do because what happens is when you do a planning across it, it's a very, very, very, very tough.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's about very easy to say because it involves a lot of time, energy.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Plus, also you also have to see that the other particular partner should not get uncomfortable.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: So, because you're trying to roll it, but once you start solving and you once you start getting into his particular shoes, saying, Boss, I am ready to move uh in this entire uh space with you, and it is not my agenda, it's our agenda.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: End of the day, it's our business goal.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: The entire narrative changes, and that's how people uh look.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Also, one thing which uh Swami as a marketer, I learned and felt which is also very important to it, is most of the business will come and say, Boss, this is this is my B2B business.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I I just want to uh keep it very simple.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: This is my B2C business.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: I personally believe there's no B2B, there's no B2C, it's P2P.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: End of the day, you are dealing with people, it's all people to people.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: So get this particular mindset.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get the larger picture.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: What is the objective that you're trying to gain?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever the momentum that you actually draw, irrespective whether you actually whether whether it has to be treated like a B2B, even if you today, and I I asked some of the people that okay, you you handle B2B business, you handle different different B2B.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: Don't you interact with um internet, don't you interact with mobile, don't you watch television, don't you watch cricket?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, how would you actually change those uh narratives that that that changed the entire particular uh framework that we actually talk about?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, uh so can you give me a real life example of you had 32 different categories, uh, you know, you actually ran this whole piece and give me a uh real life problem where uh you know you started getting the common agenda and then you realize that some of your campaigns uh or marketing initiatives, let me not use the word campaigns, because a marketing initiative is larger than the campaign, right?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, you realize that some of the initiatives are not giving the returns that the business head was looking at.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, you had to really uh rethink this whole piece.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, can you actually tell me how uh you know an agile marketer needs to think?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want you to really drop uh uh you know a real story for some uh somebody listening, saying, Hey, this is the way I need to really adapt myself.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: True.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: So uh very very interesting category, which is which is and also very, very tough in terms of a competition standpoint.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: And we were number two number and number three, we're just slipping between market share between number two, number three, depending because because you have five players, extremely, extremely competitive, extremely, extremely price sensitive, and very well distributed in the entire particular geographies that you look for.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: So there was a certain way it was actually working.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: When when I interacted, when I joined, I interacted uh and when I interacted with the entire business heads and said boss.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I don't think what you're actually doing is actually makes sense if you really want to become or you be in number one or number two positions to build.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: And uh he was he was very upset with this particular comment.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: He was, I have been running this for four years, and I I have made it from number five to number three, and uh you coming just in six months and trying to it's not about six months.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's see the data that you're trying to see.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: What we are actually trying to promote is is not what I'm selling.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I am promoting something which is uh which is only 22% of the category, where my 50%, 49% precisely is category, which I'm not promoting, it's selling on its own.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: So tomorrow, sometime else we'll have a huge problem.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's anticipate today.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: If we don't do it, it it will not uh it will not work in that uh time.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: After a lot of discussion, debate, a lot of uh uh meetings and all that.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, I let's let's do one thing.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's see all the data, let's see all the and let's start saying two things.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: What does we actually stand from from a consumer standpoint, from a retailer standpoint, a distributor standpoint, and what does we think?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: So it'll inside out and outside in perspective that we can get it across.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: And we to our particular surprise, whatever the category building that we have done for good four or five years in terms of building, neither the consumer, neither the retailer said, because you are a mass brand.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: You are not you are you're selling premium, you're positioning premium, you are putting marketing efforts and campaigns and an entire program on premium, but you are a mass brand.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: So don't don't try to actually uh promote because that's not helping.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: It is not a rub of effect that we're actually trying to, but people don't resonate with that uh clause.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we we put all our uh effort in let's let's change this uh proposition, let's let's bring a meaning what consumers are actually looking for, what our trade partners are looking for in the entire uh sense, and and we changed the entire uh strategy.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: We came out with it, we we presented to a lot of uh leadership also in terms of uh board members to look how does it actually work.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh fortunately, unfortunately, after two weeks, uh the people actually on the floor when the sales guys, people on the uh distributed uh said it is not going the way we actually thought of because uh this is something uh is not something which people expect from brand like you, uh, because uh it has always been premium, but what you are actually trying to do is not something which we people are actually able to resolve.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we just have a window of uh 12 weeks because that's that's the season time that we need to we immediately change our uh proposition, let it run on a larger campaign, what we in a larger program, but entire particular point of sale, BTL, any particular conversation, change the narrative to something which people would actually recognize too.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was very tough because it was not decided uh to look for.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: What has happened is we were we were able to maintain our number two position after a lot of turmoils uh to build in.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: We our market share was absolutely intact.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't it didn't increase, but it didn't decrease also.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh third thing that has also happened is that people started seeing a new stride.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: Very few, but obviously my my numbers would have increased, let's say 25 or 23 percent precisely to that.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: But the larger impact that has happened, which also gives a lot of uh stream to think, there are two clear business streams that emerge from that particular whether we call it an experiment, whether you call it a uh strength that we want to bring on the inside, that one that we really need to don't leave the premium positioning, we need to build that premium positioning, but we need to also strengthen our mass position because that is what our maximum business actually looked for.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: So once after the after six months or five months, we started thinking about the next particular uh year uh uh plans in terms of what should be my business plans in terms of going next year.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: Which I was now we need to increase the business.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: If I really want to become the number one, these two streams, which are which is accidentally or by particular experiment that we actually got it, we will actually try and see how we can actually build those particular two streams, and that will be very helpful.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: Till date, we are be able to have a very, very fantastic market share in those particular categories, and the best divide is people and and it's very easy.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: When one of the retailers give a fantastic example, sir, you have actually solved the problem for us.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have to unnecessarily oversell a premium thing for a particular uh customer.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: Say, sir, this is the premium range, it's cost X, this is the mass range, it costs X minus 10.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: You decide, come from the both from the same brand, it's up to you.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that is that is how it's is is from a agile market because in a seasonal product, the only thing is you you can't have a choice to do a mistake, and then you just have to correct that particular message and move.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: But I was, I think, because of the support of the team and the business, it was very lucky and helpful to actually do that, and that to also do in a meaningful uh way to move move from there.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, so therefore, you actually uh uh not you did not change just the marketing campaign, but you are saying you did a major rejig on the product correct mix, yes, and uh therefore you worked as a marketing uh you know uh as a marketing uh head with the business to actually go back and say let's build a premium brand, let's build a mass brand, and let's ensure that uh you know we uh we run uh so therefore you have to rejig your product mix itself, is what you are saying, and that it was nothing to do with the campaign, you had to get involved in the product mix itself, is what you are saying.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: Product test is also in terms of how do we really need to place that particular product because what happens is when and specifically in a season time, when you reach to a retailer and distributor gets confused with sir, yesterday, five days back, you gave me this product, this is the listing.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: Now you're saying no, no, this is what you change because he doesn't have time during the fest in the entire particular uh time of season.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't have that time because that's the time he wants to maximize.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: So we change end-to-end everything, and what that is that the beauty of a market because marketing is is basically it's a it's a knowledge hub and center for everything, because the power of data actually gives you that particular power of marketing and power of conversation that you actually do.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: And when it comes to data, it is not about what is a salesperson saying and what's a perception and what's a and that's what I always use it.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: That two things that from a data that we need to flesh uh out, which is very clear.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: What is my insight and what is my observation?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: Don't try to match two insight plus observation will never be an outcome or decision that needs to look for.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: There has to be two different ways that needs to look from uh entire uh way that we actually work.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so given that uh you know you had to work with trade partners, uh uh you know trade partners are almost like uh you know theater owners in a movie, right?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore, uh, you know the you know the worldview that they come from and the worldview that the brand marketers come from are almost like poles apart, right?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore, uh if you are a CMO and if we are running it, uh you just end up actually getting frustrated because you know the sales guy is actually uh you know he has a partner in the uh you know in the uh in the trade partner because you know there's a lot of push from the distribution end that happens.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore, as a CMO, how do you think uh that cognitive bias, if I were to call it, okay, of the brand framework, the trade framework uh are completely different.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you really reconcile to this?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: See, one one tangent, uh Swami, which is which is uh also uh actually trying to put a lot of uh reverse pressure, I would say, to uh to a marketer, to a business side, to brands are are your online platforms.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to actually you don't have one particular uh enemy or I would say one particular challenge to fight, but you have multiple challenges to fight, and that is how the entire particular technology has got it today because the same particular uh trade partner the same is is getting impacted with online and vice versa, because that that's how uh it is.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: The first thing is which is is to have the narrative of what this particular purpose particular person accepts.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: You need to have a very, very strong hearing capacity and absorbing capacity when you actually, and there are a lot of insights, very valuable insights that you get from these trade partners when you actually do.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: And give me give me some examples.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just coming to that on that example.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Is so in one of the categories which is which is something which is always from a traditional trade partner, which is lighting as a category to build in.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you will not buy lighting mostly on online, which is which is not trend, you'll be around five percent temper, but not not mostly on the uh reason main because there are a lot of different complexity of the product delivery, whether it can be uh fragile product and whether it can broke, and that's everything depends upon your particular fate on the counter is done by that particular retailer or distributor, whosoever actually sells or or a trade partner in that sense to uh look for.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: So your not only your relationship but your knowledge of the product, your your knowledge of your particular journey that you're actually trying to do makes a huge, huge sense for him.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what happens is when you actually start understanding, understand from what exactly he is coming from, what is his particular pace coming from.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: And most of the time, when we actually go to market surveys and when you actually do market uh interactions with these people, one thing which is always been a case is you listen to me what I'm actually trying to do.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: Please listen what I'm saying because and I'll tell you, Swami, I have learned a lot of things from those interactions because there are actual on-ground practical solutions, which people and one and one of the cases is a practical solution.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: Says, sir, you are selling a new LED bulb in a packet.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: How would I show a light is uh bright or light is warm white?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: How would I show you somebody in a category is selling LED bulb on radio?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Can you feel through the voice what does a light actually come through it?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: So he said, please give me a one particular display board where I can show 5 watts, 10 watts, 11 watts, 15 watts, 20 watts, and I can show how does different colors from a warm white to a to actually uh normal light, how does it fit?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: It will enhance my particular base.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: And we thought about it it actually makes sense because tomorrow, if a person will know, and it's a new concept.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: Elite's it was a very very new concept at one time.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: Why would somebody invest two times or three times then from a CFL if you want to convert into the category?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: And if I become the category leader, if I can actually convert that, let's let's try and give him something what he actually wants.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's an investment, yes, it's an investment.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: But what are we actually trying trying to do is two things one we're actually gaining the confidence of that particular trade partner, second, we're also trying to actually trying to big do a category education job, category building job.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: People may not see it because it is it is not a high impact advertising the people, but it is it is actually a bamboo strategy that I'm actually trying to do, and I'm actually trying to get into every particular retail corner for and we did this, you won't believe it.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: The success of that is in the first particular year when we actually closed it for we anticipated about having a 20-25 percent market share in that category, it it actually grew to 39% in that, and and the insight is because it's all about feeling and seeing because light is not something that actually uh look for it.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'll also tell you one example related to the same uh context is uh at that point of time home decorative lighting was not a very, very big concept in India, and and in in that case, even even today, we have around 85-90 percent of players in the home decorative are are basically local players or somebody importing from a different company and putting you uh something as a more economic product, and nobody thought of having a branded particular concept of having a home decorative lighting uh store.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: The the first thought and everything is people should come and feel what you're actually selling because this is something which is about feel that particular impact of the light.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: You can't be selling it through brochures, you can't be selling it through, and we created we understood because of the learning that we have from this category bus, we need to have our own particular light loungers who can actually give that entire particular impact of people can come to your particular place and actually showcase.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: There are what has happened is all the influences in the category, like your architect, interior, designers, lighting contractors, specifiers, these particular people stood up and said, boss, this is the place I will take my customer to, where I can show what is the best filter into your particular room and how does it actually move from your uh thing.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, extremely important to understand and involve the entire particular insight with this particular and act on it.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: What happens is most of the people will go have a fantastic market visit, understand, but the deliverability is not happening.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: What happens is at the end of the day, even the trade partner gets frustrated and saying, But if you don't want to implement what I say, and if I don't want to do things which I need to look, then it's no point in terms of having those conversations when you you already decide with a closed mind that but this is what I know.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: Anytime, and that's what I have believed and I have learned from a lot of my particular experiences.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: Always be very open-minded when you go to market, just absorb everything, filter from what you need to do.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: If you need to go for a selected people to find out, does this work?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: Just do a testing.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: And most of the time, what happens is people will do a lot of we'll talk about in terms of A B testing, ad testing, at, but we never test our entire particular BTL activities.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: Please test that BTL activity.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: It works, and I've seen it, it works like wonders because you will get the right feedback from the ground, which nobody else will have because that's the person who's actually making or breaking your category, your brand on the counter.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: ContraMinds is a podcast dedicated to decoding people, minds, strategy, and culture.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: We interview and learn from high performers so that you can apply these lessons on your journey to becoming the knowledge worker athlete you were meant to be.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: The Contraminds Podcast is available on all leading podcast players, and if you are interested in revisiting past episodes or taking a look at our show notes from this episode, please visit us at www.contraminds.com forward slash blog.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: And now back to the show.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, very interesting.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: So uh uh so I have a you know a follow-up question on that.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so uh here is a problem that you stated saying that uh unless until the category education is done, uh the category share may not increase, right?
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: So now uh so now you are actually uh in a peculiar situation where you have 100 rupees to spend and uh you probably need to put it in you know light lounges and not in a campaign, right?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, but your marketing team is always looking at what is my next campaign, okay.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you handle the contradiction within your department?
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, because they don't think lighting lounges are a great uh marketing initiative because that's not what the peers, their peers in the marketing fraternity are doing, okay.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, if I was sitting as the uh as somebody like you, you're going to put probably 80 rupees in lounges, and you may not have put money in advertising itself.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so now how do you really then uh you know how do you then balance the budget?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because that becomes a real challenge because that you have only limited budgets budgets to spend.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: See, one one uh beautiful thing which happens with lounges it is it is actually helping you from a from a local area marketing lamp, which we actually talked about.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because if if you're actually doing a tom tom in the entire particular world, it will not work because it has to today.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm staying in an X part of the city and my particular vicinity and light lounge in the next 5, 7, 10 kilometers, I'll definitely visit.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: But if it is 20, 25, I will never go because that defeats the purpose of getting into it.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: The the first and the foremost thing is in terms of, and that's what happened in most of the trade that looked.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: Identify your top 20, 25 various stars store that will actually generate around 80% of the business to look for.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: And see how you can actually do a local area marketing lamb in the entire part and do in the best possible manner.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: What will actually give you?
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, it will actually give you a very affinited reach to the people that need to, it will give you an affinity audience to that, and it'll optimize your budget because rather than doing a national or international sorry, national or uh multimedia campaigns, it will cost a lot of bomb to it.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: If that is sorted, just the long tail how you can actually build in terms of a new lounges that are coming.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: How can you promote that?
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: And and most important is which which which the maximum 50% of your budget of 100 rupees or whatever you call it may go for is is what is the experience that customer is gaining from that shop floor and in that particular floor when they actually come in.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_02: If you do everything to get that customer there, but their experience falters, then obviously uh it will not work in that particular tangent because people are coming for an experience there.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: Your final decision on buying, not buying, and the opinion on the category is not on the campaign that you do.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: You have you've got into them the shop, now it's end of the day, tomorrow they come and say, Boss, I I don't think so, it's even worth visiting.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: Then your entire effort goes for it.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say the best thing, and and and that's what see end of the day.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: If customer is there, if you're getting the least leads to so sell that customer, your business, your internal team will all be happy because tomorrow it's generating business.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore, so therefore, uh, here is a marketing person who normally works with say marketing agencies, you work with uh you know market research companies, and suddenly now uh you know you are actually saying, Let me build an experience, let me go build a lounge.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and uh so uh you absolutely have no clue how to build a lounge, right?
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't think in your uh MBA somebody taught you how to build lounge, and you know you are used to spending money on media, and here you are spending money on a lounge.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, how did you uh reconcile and how did you really reimagine your role?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, how did you go about doing it?
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: See, it was frankly speaking, it is just about uh uh rolling your sleeves, and and as you rightly put in.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, nobody in in the club, we we we hired from the best of the retail and all, but for they were not from the trade itself, they're not from the lighting trade or something else to actually do it, they're from a different trade who actually came from.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, somebody coming from, let's say, a sportswear can't give you a they can give you about what a store should look like and how does a store selection things have, but will not give you what exactly from a lighting standpoint to look for.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of experimentation, a lot of learning that happened on ground in terms of and you really need to be always on the toes from that.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: And there are a lot of I would say a lot of mistakes to finalize what exactly it is.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, for a somebody would say no, no, yeah, uh, you're putting everything here on an average, they were around close to thousand plus SQUs in a home decorative lighting.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: You can't put thousand sqs any of your lounges that you look for, whatever the size and magnitude that you look for.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: Then you need to decide here, okay.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: I have no learning, I don't have any prior learning whether this 50 will work or 100 work.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: Then you need to start piggy banking where this will, I think, will work for the let's let's put it for one particular uh month.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: It is not easy to change that because let's say a chandelier which uh which has a weight of 80 kgs, you can't change this every time in terms of how do you need to build it.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: It was complete, complete learning on the job.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: Getting your hands dirty in terms of this is the decision that you took may not work tomorrow, or it may not work on a different uh uh city altogether.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: Also, there are a lot of regional uh nuances that you need to keep in mind because what does the market look for?
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: There are there are certain pockets where the lighting markets are defined in that particular city, you have to be in that market, otherwise, you're out of the game to build it.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: Whether you will able to get that particular space that you took for, very, very difficult.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: How much time that you need to wait?
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: How do you really get a good trade partner to actually endorse your particular idea?
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: And as you rightly said, neither in the entire particular learning of marketing or MB that you actually done, it is completely, completely learning.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: It is taking a decision, whether uh testing it, whether it's working, not working, changing it.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: It is completely if I if I really want to put it in one uh uh sentence, it is just getting on the job learning, revise your particular learning, change your decision, be active in terms of moving to change it, be ready to in terms of change it, accept the mistakes that you're actually, and there are a lot of mistakes.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'll be very honest.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of mistakes, but there's a lot of learning also attached to that mistake, which gives you confidence that if I want to scale it up from 1 to 100, now I have the whereabouts and I can actually move from there.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: That is that is how it actually worked out.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, uh, if I were to look at this example that you're talking, and I look at your marketing mix variables, okay.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so how did you allocate this money and how did you go about doing it?
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: And what was life like for uh like for you as a CMO?
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, were you sitting in your table trying to build a campaign with your agency, or uh you know, were you on the ground every day trying to do it?
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so therefore, first question maybe how what was the mix in the marketing variable?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you can answer that and then we move to the next question.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: So, the so the first thing, uh Swami, is these type of uh jobs or these type of uh activities, you can't be doing it in your office.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: Every time at least you have to be twice or thrice on the site to see what exactly it needs to look for.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because if my final product and my final particular destination is not decided, then it is very, very difficult for me to actually find out how are I actually moving from there.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: And and when we used to do it, we used to make a two or three different okay, morning before office, we'll we'll go and see what exactly things need to look for.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: If things have been planned the way it is, uh, if if not afternoon, definitely in the evening spend one and a half, two hours and then what should be the next step because what happens is it's it's it's all about even from a front facade to let's say a sitting lawn.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_02: Do we have enough space for people to actually sit?
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: Whether my facade is something which is which is really really impactful for people uh to build it, and that is why you have to shift the roles and you have to shift the gear that this is not a job that can be done in terms of sitting in a conference room, deciding with the agency to find out.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be with your particular support partners on that show.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: No, this particular uh uh aesthetic, this particular product doesn't fit.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: Can we change it?
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: Can we change the way the background looks like the color that actually is not the light is actually getting dim because again, coming to the point is you have to feel that light, it is not it is actually getting dim because the the background color that needs to it?
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: So you need to change from a from a uh office job to actually to an on-field job that you need to uh uh change to it.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh so given that context, uh Amit, uh so you had a whole host of agencies who are helping you do this, right?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, do you believe uh the uh agencies of today uh uh have a sense of the business challenges, or do they have a sense of just the next campaign to be developed?
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: See uh Swami, the they have the sense of challenges, but is that enough to have a sense of challenges?
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you really want to be the agency for the future, uh I think first thing that has to need to look for is to get into the challenges that a business is having, not the challenge that you are internally facing.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I I would say, and you would you would agree, you have you have seen most of these things before in your particular uh career to look for, and that was a beautiful model I always advocate is, and that's what the need of today and the future is.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: To be a future ready agency, you need to have an integrated marketing agency, not a silo different, different agency.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: I I I am an AOR media agency, I'm a your doesn't work that way.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_02: Today, the solution which a particular client looks for is an integrated solution uh to bring forward.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_02: I would I'm not interested whether you take a data science expert from XYZ, part of your business or somebody else.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: I need what is an end-to-end solution for me.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: The reason being is it's not about in terms of always cost, it's not about optimization of I really need to see how are you actually envisaging my particular customer journey in today's digital world or in today's connected world.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not interested in having a fantastic campaign, it's fine.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: How does this particular campaign will get hands, legs, and always the mouth, which is the conversation to build across?
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: Which is people, I would not say that they don't have a sense or they don't want to have the sense, but the larger piece which is there in the entire thing is they don't understand, they don't want to change that particular model.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_02: Reason being because just try to sell what you actually have, and that will actually falter a lot of things going forward because that is not the ask of any marketers today.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: I I I meet so many people across the end, and that's one the one pain area which every conversation comes is how is your agency performing?
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_02: Do you able to take the challenges that for it or they're able to understand uh for it?
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that is where actually uh and I would say why it's a very, very uh serious observation and a point to discuss is because if I am depending on my particular agency partner is my particular arm to build in, then it will be very, very difficult if if they are not up to the speed, if they're not in the mind, if they don't have a bind of my particular business objective, then it is very difficult to actually travel in the same journey.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, so what you what I'm hearing you say, uh let me articulate it uh uh you know uh from what you are saying, sure, is that uh you're saying they understand the business challenger, but they probably today are working in silos, okay, or they may want to work in an uh interconnected manner, but the real challenge is uh unable to do that because they may not be the best specialist in that area, okay.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, how does uh you know uh the CMO of the future then manage this contradiction and balance this and get the best out of his partners or her partners?
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I think a very, very interesting point, Swami that you touched it in, which which I think I should have covered before, but but good we are actually having at this.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_02: See, marketing today and marketing going forward is becoming a micro specialized function, it is not a generic function.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm a social media specialist, doesn't work, I'm a brand manager, doesn't work.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: It has to be within social media what you do.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: Either you are a campaign manager or either you are a matrix manager, either you are a buyer for that particular media, either you are a content uh syndicator, it has to have a micro specialization.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_02: World is moving towards micro-specialization.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody and I will see from three years from now the way the technology is getting into the entire particular marketing and the way the concept of real true concept of market note, not only in terms of uh reading an article or understanding a uh podcast of market, but real usage of mark tech at look for it because there are very lot of different uh nomenclature to market to bring every particular and it starts not with the agency, it starts with the marketing department first.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_02: It has to have a micro-specialized department in every form and format that look for now.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: If if that is the ask, then the agencies tomorrow of agency of today has to also change their entire narrative the way it is.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_02: It can't be okay.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: I have I have 20 best creative writers, doesn't mean my audience today for my online is very different.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: Going forward, tomorrow, I even for a digital space, I would have three or four different narratives for the same creative because it doesn't work.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have to just do an edit job and all because the audience were different.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_02: The way today consumer the way today audiences look on an Instagram is very, very different from the way that actually look on a Facebook, or the audience of Facebook will not be the same replica on LinkedIn.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: How do you need to move across today?
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: If you really want to see people who soccer is going on, the amount of involvement that you did to you have to be very different from it.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: So now coming to the point in terms of how does the agency actually need to look for the point is very valid.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_02: What you said, they understand, but nobody is ready because it's not it's not silo working, is one particular part, everybody is running their own particular agenda with the entire brand.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: Brand is one, my objective is one, but I'm actually being treated in four or five different ways uh to look for in a classical way, which I which I give an example was I I have a I have a throat infection, fever, and all, but I am giving a separate treatment for fever.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_02: I've been giving a separate treatment for my throat ailment, I have a separate beef for something else.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: I am the same person.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: So the point which I was actually drawing is that there has to be, and that's what I always expect that, and there's there's a unified briefing format, and there's a unified briefing platform which I use it, and I believe in terms of using it.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: Anything that has to be developed from a anything means anything, whether it's an event, whether it's a PR uh launch, whether it is to do with uh digital, whether it is to do with social, with content, all have to be briefed together, and I want to see a plan together.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_02: Whether you work for whatever agencies, but it's a it's a very, very difficult task.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'll be telling you because you have the teams.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: I would have attended some meeting, but it becomes very difficult for the teams to actually coordinate with so many people to get a file.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: But end of the day, I want to see a one unified plan.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not interested because my customers it remains the one.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: It is not different and bifurcated in a different plant to look.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_02: Agencies are not geared up for that, it they are not geared up for that in terms of doing it, and that will actually change because also one thing which is which is very important, uh Swami is the nomenclature of agencies will also move and change, and and reason is it's also already changing in most.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_02: I am not interested in to have or pay a hefty amount in terms of what what I'm not required to do.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: That if I'm not getting an integrated solution, and that's why these the traditional agencies, whether it's your media agency, digital agency, creative agency, now the there's some bifurcations of content agencies and all.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: I need one agency who can stand up a say boss, I will give you an integrated marketing plan.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: And the brief that you actually do, you evaluate me on the integrated marketing plan.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_02: How do I do it from a back end?
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_02: Is my problem.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to get into it.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_02: Today, the challenge is even from a biggest group that you work for it, if you want to get all the people together from it's humongous staff, you'll it will take at least good two weeks to get people on board.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_02: That will not work today, and that will not go work in the future, also, because by the time you decide, and if you will not do it, somebody else will do it.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_02: And there are a lot of startup uh agencies who are coming up and saying, Whatever we do, you tell me your problem.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I was very happy to interact with one of the agencies that sir, you give me your five problem statements and give me your timelines and give me what is the touch point that you want to do.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: How do I do?
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_02: How do I present is my problem?
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: Don't pay me till the time if one of your objectives or matrix are actually been.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody has the guts today for me to stand up and say and say, But this is a conversation, I do it.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: Normally, the conversation starts as boss, I provide you media specialist service.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_02: Fine, it is it is good for you to provide today.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_02: And when when the world is moving towards micro-specialization, your agency partners should be much more ahead in terms of providing that specialized.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't do that, then you're actually out of the race.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_02: The loss is not for them, the loss is for the brand because then you need to reinvent everything inside that you want to do in your organization.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you used an uh interesting uh word called the unified briefing.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: So what is this thing called unified briefing?
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: Can you just throw some light on it?
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so unified briefing, what what we actually practice, and yeah, I have practiced for good number of years, is is let's say one marketing program that we want to draw.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'm not looking for a short-term campaign of four wheels.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: It has because anything that and it's a launch campaign or it's a it's a new category entry or whatever that you need to put.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_02: It has to write from write from your basic brief document that you actually create.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_02: Every particular uh individual who are a part of this, when I say an individual part of the agency, is let's say uh a media agency, my creative agency, my content, my digital, my PR, my events agency, even even my shop for retail agency that needs to everybody has to be briefed at one point of time.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_02: The objective of doing it because the same communication in the same particular thing and the same importance of the role that everybody has to play.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: What happens to that?
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I've I've I have done enough of that, and I would say multiple times.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: The best part is everybody will actually get the same sense of priority for everyone.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_02: But I have retail, this is what my particular job will start.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_02: This is what the point of them when I have to do things.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody will start working from their also.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: What is very important is everybody is very motivated that I am not the last man to look for.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_02: Normally, what happens is when the campaign is and we'll say retail is something that will treat in the last.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think they have to be in the picture today, they have to be in the discussion today.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then when you have this entire particular unified briefing, then start coming in terms of talking about how this particular briefing will translate into a unified plan, which is an integrated marketing plan.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then you can see this is this is what my particular launch plan, these are the touch points that we'll cover, followed by this particular thing.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: Then then my pattern will be taken by the retail team, they will start implementing, and this is how my entire particular launch plan looks like.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: So so did you did you uh actually execute this by saying that uh you know you you got all these agencies, and you would actually get them to present uh with all of them being present, saying this is how my uh my creative agency will come and present, and this is how my retail agency will present, this is my digital agency will present, and you will have them in the room and they would have to present their campaigns together.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I have done it many times and very, very successful, and also just to an extent, even to the extent of getting the let's say if I want to do an innovation, what would be my innovation or a teaser will look like on a TV?
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_02: What will my innovation look like in an outdoor?
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_02: How would I do in terms of creating a content on a uh radio?
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I have done it and it has worked very well, and I've done many times.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_02: It is it has worked very well, very, very well uh in terms of doing so.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: The challenge there I see, Amit, is that uh you know, I don't want to take the creative agency's uh you know idea, and then I start adapting it, or vice versa.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great idea that the retail agency gives me that the creative agency does not want to take, and uh you know you are stuck in the middle.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and how do you balance that?
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_02: See the final calls for me, and that's what I always tell most of the agency boss.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_02: The final call lies with the marketing, and and when I say marketing, it is combined uh with all of them with my agency partner because I I know never and most of the thing, and I never feel them they are an outside, they're they're part of me only in my particular marketing journey.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_02: They're part of me in the entire uh journey to build uh the entire particular spectrum with me, and and there are many situations forget about in terms of getting the uh idea from sorry from uh uh a retail partner or to this, there are within the same group media and creative agency have they have got some content idea which which the creative agency doesn't agree to it.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I've always the objective is not about who is doing it, the objective is is it in the same brand parallels that we actually decided?
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_02: We decided one particular platform approach, uh is it falling in that particular if it is yes?
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_02: Let let's keep our particular egos and our particular business object to the side.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's see what is the brand objective that we're trying to fulfill.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_02: And there are there are a lot of debates, there are a lot of discussion that happens.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_02: Best part of it is the one thing which we actually see is the amount of passion to work for the brand because now everybody has to prove the way it has to prove in the same parallels.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: It is not that you will you will do your creative and then you'll you'll just sit and be happy and turn.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_02: No, everybody has to contribute.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_02: One thing which is there, which is which is which I have learned from this uh entire objective of things uh to build is is to get people in terms of the objective, never miss the objective of the brand, and the final call is to be taken by me or the marketing team that we have because we understand and we live, sleep, breathe, eat, post particular objectives every day rather than just in terms of putting one of the objectives let's say retail or let's say an objective or a creative from uh uh for a media thing.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because today what happens is because the way we have orchestrated these agencies for some time, so I mean you would agree because you have you have seen those things much more from different different lenses, you know.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody is trying to get the maximum share from the from the client.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_02: Whether I'm I'm capable of doing it or not, whether I'm capable of delivering it or not, doesn't matter.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_02: I will do something in the back end and I will deliver it to you to that.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think that will not work, and that is not working today because today there are so many options available which you're not used to 10 years back.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have those options to evaluate today.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_02: Today, if you if you really want to do the best content, you will just just call up some of the people and they'll they'll create the best of it.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_02: You just the only thing in the beauty of this unified briefing is everything falls in the same particular platform, and everything falls tomorrow.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_02: You don't find a difference on a content place, you're talking something else, but on your main campaign is talking something else, so you get that particular beauty of showing an integrated campaign, not only by showing an integrated, but also delivering that integrated campaign.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant, brilliant.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, uh, given this uh uh you know uh a recommendation that you are talking about, how should the marketing departments in companies change?
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because what I see many a times is oh, I handle digital marketing, I handle events, I handle uh media.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you think the skill sets of the marketing departments of the future need to be built over time?
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_02: See, one thing I'll just answer the second question first, the second part first, rather, and then the first thing is thing.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_02: One thing which I tell in most of my particular conversations with marketers is first of all, is technology is one particular game, or it's just one particular lesson that you need to learn across, whether you are in whatever sense, because in whichever field that you may not be doing digital marketing, but you need to be very, very well conversed with everything that is happening in the technology in your dome.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_02: You may be just doing an outdoor advertising, doesn't matter.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_02: You may be just doing a retail thing, doesn't matter.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_02: How can you bring that technology to your particular is very important, and I think that that goes with anyone.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, fortunately, we don't teach that in the any either the MBA level or any particular marketing courses in India.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_02: Very, very important.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_02: Very, very important.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_02: Second thing which is very important is in terms of learning is is to understand, read, and comprehend data-driven marketing.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you're a retail, how many footfalls are come?
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_02: What is the time of footfall that can actually come?
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_02: How can you increase your footfall?
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_02: What is the customer expectation at one of time?
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_02: Everything is available today.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_02: You just have to put something on your particular base, and things will things will move uh uh on that uh tangent.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_02: Now, the marketing functions today, and again, it is the only thing, and that that's how you need to you need to get into a micro specialized role, generic roles in marketing, neither it's working, neither it is.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_02: Work in the future.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_02: You people were very happy.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm a brand manager.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's very good to have as a title.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_02: But what you actually do, are you specialized in in one thing?
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I always quote this thing: you have to be jack of all traits, but master of one.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_02: That master of one will actually make you and define you as a particular marketing to look for.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're saying I've I was just mentioning a few minutes back, somebody if you if you're saying I'm a I'm a social media specialist, it's a it's a good tag to be.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_02: But what does within the social media that you do?
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_02: Either you do social media analytics, either you do social media content, either you do social media advertising, or you are only a specialist in any form.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_02: You will you will see and the way it is happening when I interact with a lot of people uh outside India and people tomorrow you will have a specialist only for Instagram.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm an Instagram specialist, I am I'm not a social media special, I am only a specialist in LinkedIn aptitude.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_02: I will help you in terms of developing how does the content require your content requirements will be different, your consumption requirement would be different, and also in terms of approaching those audience would be different.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_02: So only thing is for a marketing fund, you need to get into micro specialized.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_02: If you have the people get them into a habit of getting a micro specialist within the same thing, give them to reboot their entire particular careers, reskill them, and also recalibrate the way they want to do it.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_02: That that would this the future of marketing departments going forward.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_01: So given that uh you know depth of experience that you actually uh you know uh demonstrated in this conversation, Amit, uh, you decided to shift and move to a very large technology company, right?
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that's a major shift, I would call, right?
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so what motivated you to move into that space, and what do you believe is something that uh is a big, I would say, uh tsunami that's coming in, and therefore, how do you really uh so what are you learning from global markets?
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_01: What are you learning from uh you know uh global clients, and what is what are the learnings that you built over the last uh you know 25 years?
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_01: What are you building with this global role of yours?
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_02: See, uh so if I if I see my uh career trajectory uh from the day one and the categories that I've worked, I've I've worked in multiple categories, and my objective at that point was not in terms of uh having because I didn't have that vision to be very honest.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_02: For two years, three years experience, five years.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I don't have that vision in terms of uh saying that I I want to do this or I want to do that.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_02: Always one thing which was very clear, and still that is that is alive uh even after 20-25 years of my experience today is that I want to do something new and I want to learn something new.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want to don't do a same mundane job in terms of moving across.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_02: I want to shift categories, I want to shift gears in those categories, I want to uh experience different verticals from the category, and that's what I've been doing for all the years.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_02: If if I actually draw this entire thing, there is hardly any particular move that I have made it, is it's in the same particular industry or same.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_02: The idea is just to have a multilinear experience to build in.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_02: And if I would, as I just mentioned, there was no particular thought 20 years or 15 years back that will I do a multilinear experience.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't even have that thought in my mind to to do that.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_02: But when I see today, after looking back in terms of that, has actually generated a lot of experience, multi-category experience to uh to look for, and that that really helped, and that that really really helped big way because today the the amount of knowledge that you actually carry from those practical experiences working in those categories is is huge uh in terms of uh working.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_02: Now, coming to when I made this particular shift from a technology uh organization, the idea is again the same.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_02: I have worked in everything if I talk about FMCG, consumer durable, electronics, electricals, automobile, uh every particular category I have actually covered.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_02: Now try and see how you can actually add a lot of value to the technology base that you can do.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_02: How can you actually uh sharpen your skills and learn from those particular because that will add a lot of significant value from two tangents?
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_02: One is because technology is something that is actually moving in a very, very fast, and it's not about technology that you need to know hard to technology, your consumer would be actually moved to a much more tech savvy than you if you understand the consumer pace and if you understand the technology, then the consumer tech will actually make you to a lot of different and evolved as a marketer.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_02: In marketing as a function, which I always believe is you really need to just by doing an agile marketing, is not about in terms of doing agile campaign or agile programs, but you yourself as a marketer has to be agile in terms of learning and taking those new challenges.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_02: That learning from your particular previous learning that you have done can actually make you a much more refined contributor of knowledge within the marketing tool of how much I will be able to do, I don't know, it's too early to say, but that is what I think I I always try to do that because that learning is very different.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_02: What most of the I've seen, and most of my mentors and my particular seniors previous have told me one thing which which they have done as a mistake.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, never stop learning.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_02: These designations, these once you reach to a level, will actually make you much more complacent.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_02: The more you today become a complacent in marketing, the more it is you're actually moving towards your closure of your career.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_02: If you really want to be actually moving out into marketing, learning is that actually makes whether it is and the best thing is to have on job, roll your sleeves, get into it, get your hands dirty.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_02: May maybe you may succeed, you're not succeed, but end of the day, you'll have that learning to move from.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_02: So the last story I'm so sorry, this last part that you mentioned in terms of learning from the uh global markets, enormous learning.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think the the best learning that you actually from a marketer is is to learn the marketing culture and the culture of that particular uh globe that you're actually doing.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_02: You you you have your fantastic plan on marketing, you have a fantastic way to run a program, but culturally that is not working.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's very important.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Second thing is the way you actually need to know is to collaborative working.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_02: You work in different time zones, somebody else as your partner work in different time zones.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Are you able to collaborate?
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because great ideas, great ideas reception only having once you have a good collaborative mindset.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_02: If you are able to collaborate much better, everyone will able to actually give you your particular thoughts, and it's always it's it's always in terms of two great minds collaborating in marketing will actually give you, and it's a it's a huge learning, which it can't be expressed, it can't be uh felt about, but it's a huge learning because every day, if you do five to six calls from five or different geographies to it, you will find something or the else as new nuances that you actually add up to uh to things, plus also the different multicultural level in which marketing is moving, which actually open your particular brains to think very differently.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Some countries are are 10x ahead of you, some particular countries are five X below you, but end of the day, you are able to see the entire spectrum today.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_02: What you can actually learn, how can you use that learning in different particular markets?
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_02: How can you actually help those people to learn move from them?
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_02: So that is what how I have envisaged in some uh few years that I've been here in this particular role.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so what have what have been your uh interesting perspectives because you uh you know it's it's it's a massive uh role that you are doing, uh so suddenly uh you know it's not the traditional FMCG kind of marketing, it's not the uh you know consumer durable kind of marketing.
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so what are the various things that uh are very different?
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_01: And uh can you give me some uh initial experiments and successes that you are seeing?
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And uh how do you see uh a technology company adopting marketing?
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_02: So uh one thing which which I'll I'll just uh add on from the last question that we actually important, uh, whether you you work for a FMCG company or whether you work with technology thing, if you really want to get into a marketing leadership or a leadership yourself, it is an L2L process, learning to leadership.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_02: If you actually build to it, and and that is how whatever the learning that you have from last so many years, either from a domain expert of marketing or of or a category expert of different categories from FMCG retail to whatever categories that you actually work for, it actually gives you a very, very different feel that you actually do.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Now, coming to two or two a technology company, your I always believe in that such how your principle remains in practices changes, those same principles that you can actually apply from a from a practice standpoint of a marketing is a very, very different um orchestration to the entire uh thing today.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_02: And and what you happen is when when when people look up to you as a senior marketer in the entire organization, their expectation is in terms of as a helping hand to develop those particular challenges along with them.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_02: And and if you see uh everybody will will be more than happy if you're able to contribute to those uh challenges that you're looking for, and and specifically if somebody and and very different challenges.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, let's say uh a challenge is in an X category in a technology which is very different from a Y category, and how do you need to uh look for how does it actually help in what you learn is with all the vast experience and all that you have done, this is the time that actually helps you in terms of developing and shaping and working across.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, what happens is normally people will say, No, I will have the same particular uh formula for X, Y, Z, whatever the category, it doesn't work.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, with your particular knowledge that you bring on table, people also will be more than happy to collaborate and participate, saying because this is what is actually making sense for my market in my particular uh category, and and and a lot of success uh in terms of when you and we actually talk about people and say, Okay, fine, you have been discussing an XYZ.
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Is this the right proposition?
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is what I feel.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_02: And when you go with your narrative and ask these guys, do you think this is right?
• 1:15:11
  SPEAKER_02: People say we have never thought of it because we are not marketers, we are we are basically uh from business side of we have we have never thought of this product.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's explore in terms of moving.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_02: So the freshness of knowledge from an outsider perspective that you actually bring bring, most of the people also help in terms of care.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is this is something worth spending time, and let's see how we can actually uh do and start owning those uh propositions.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh so what has been your uh you know uh learnings?
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh especially suddenly, uh you know, you will have a retail vertical, you will have a you know B2B vertical, you may have a BFSI vertical, the way technology companies talk, and these are multi-billion dollar businesses, right?
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to uh do marketing or do run your global demand center uh for running uh you know these opportunities.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are the new marketing elements that you've added to the arsenal and how have you kind of uh you know seeded it in the organization?
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, I would say cross-pollinate these learnings, and how can you give me some examples of how you have been able to build it?
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_02: See, one thing which is very similar to the present the number of verticals, uh what I have handled in the number of verticals, the only difference is the change in the nature of the verticals because so that that is that is not something which is but one thing which is which is very very different uh and very uh different from as from my particular learning is even if you if you talk about any particular vertical, let's say uh bfsi or any particular then there are multiple subverticals that you need to really uh cater to, and and everybody has a different ass, everybody has different um uh point to to build in.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_02: The most important is learning that you actually need to is to get into that particular problem that you're actually trying to solve.
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_02: See what happens most of the time is we we we miss the challenges that we're actually facing today.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_02: We are only trying to, and most of the time, what happens is marketing will come with their own agenda, uh business has owned.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think the first thing is to get into everybody on the same phase what is the challenge that we're actually trying to sort together, and and we get into the entire uh proposition of working.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Second learning which I had from my previous thing, which I try introduced, and obviously it's a it's a different ball game to look, is to get into an integrated marketing communication in the entire particular space to building because that is what is very important today.
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because how is integrated marketing uh you know in this context for a company of this size or a company of this nature?
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's a different it has to be treated one by one.
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's let's say you're solving a problem, let's say for XYZ as a as a uh product to look for it, or XYZ as a community you're talking about talking about, let's say, cloud, or you're talking about something as a cybersecurity or something, it has to have a different dimension for that.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_02: So you can't have one particular framework saying, But this is this will work.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, so you have to dovetail everything, you have to actually customize that thing or personalize to that particular level.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I may not be requiring all the elements of the integrated marketing community at the same point of time, but I would require four elements for my X particular program to learn from.
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_02: And second thing is which is which is also most important, which is which has never been a case of learning for me.
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_02: There are a lot of education marketing that you need to do for it's it's not about there's a difference always between an advertising and an education adverting that needs to look for.
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to you have to sell something, but you're not have to sell things just like your shampoo soaps and things that need to look for.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_02: You have to sell something which is which is more from a conversation which brings education to it.
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_02: People may know about it, but people don't know about what offerings that you're trying to do, or people will say, I don't you see you from that particular annual, or customers say, I don't use you from that particular tangent.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's a huge learning because you have to shift your gears and see how you can actually change that particular learning, change that entire orientation to the way it is actually asked from that particular uh requirement of that business.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_02: That is that is that that's a huge shift in the gear that I see uh Swami in the days that I've spent here.
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant, brilliant.
• 1:19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so Amit uh, so this was a great conversation.
• 1:19:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be asking you some rapid fire uh questions as uh you know probably my last section.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so when you uh look back, see when you look at uh say professions, okay.
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if I'm a cricketer, uh I would say Sachin would say, Hey, Sunil Gawaskar was my uh you know, idol or hero, and that's really how I wanted to play cricket.
• 1:19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or you know, somebody would say Vivian Richards was my hero, and that's really our couple there.
• 1:19:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there are lots of uh heroes are there.
• 1:19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Who is your hero, okay?
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, when you started, and uh who continues to remain your hero, and who are the people whom you look up to in your profession?
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_02: See, I think naming anybody or anyone named would not know.
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think anybody uh and I'll and I'm and I do very uh ardent research on people, uh, maybe uh a lot of new startup uh that guys they're doing fantastic marketing jobs, uh people that have actually made me handle and say, boss, this is this is how you need to look for it, and I think everybody contributed from the way it is.
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_02: The way I look uh is is a little different from there because you have an inspiration every day in your life, and and it is not about that this is an inspiration that will go for 20 years.
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think that they have actually gone to date.
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_02: Anything they can actually learn and add to your particular skill set, and it's not about that somebody will come and tell you that this is what it is.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_02: I I also contribute to people who actually write a good article.
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just reading one of the white papers which was published in HPR sometime back, and very inspirational.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_02: He was that guy was my professor some years back uh of marketing in ISB uh to look for.
• 1:20:43
  SPEAKER_02: Very inspiration.
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_02: I uh I really find it in terms of very inspiration to uh build it.
• 1:20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Very difficult to name or put anybody into it, but I think anywhere and any place that you can actually learn from, and even from whether it there's some uh I I also meet a lot of startup people and sir, I want to discuss an idea with you.
• 1:20:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll I'd open plan bank being my particular nature and being an honest, you know, your your plan is fantastic, you don't even need to showcase, just go and implement that.
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_02: So, whatever the learning that you can actually get from anywhere, that that becomes your particular inspiration in life, and that that has to be because otherwise, what happens is you stick in one particular open your mind and open your mind in terms of learning from wherever it is.
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think that is should be learning, should be a big bigger inspiration than a person or a leader that will actually change the dimension that we look to.
• 1:21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 1:21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so what is uh uh you know the word uh success mean to you, uh Amit?
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I rightly speaking, so I mean I for me success is is if I'm able to uh contribute to whatever I'm doing, and I think that is what I always believe, and there has to be a result and effect from that.
• 1:21:48
  SPEAKER_02: I am not a very, very big uh proponent of getting awards in product.
• 1:21:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a big opponent in terms of seeing buzz business successes.
• 1:21:55
  SPEAKER_02: If business is moving, if there is a there is a growth that is happening, I think the real success is that, and I think that is what success means to you see a real value to what you can actually contribute and bring on table.
• 1:22:05
  SPEAKER_02: If you if you did and been participating in the team that can actually launch a category, and if you see that category is doing well, I think that is the real satisfaction that you get in, that's the real success for you.
• 1:22:15
  SPEAKER_02: Tomorrow, when you look back after 25 years and say, boss, there are 18 categories that I have launched or I've worked on that, and out of that 18 categories, 10 are doing fabulously well.
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's the best success that can actually uh uh look for you, and that that changed the entire confidence sometime in you and say boss.
• 1:22:31
  SPEAKER_02: I can actually, when I have something that I can actually make a difference to the entire particular world.
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Very nice.
• 1:22:37
  SPEAKER_01: I I really love the uh you know how you termed success.
• 1:22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Very nice.
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, what is the best piece of advice uh you've ever got when you think back?
• 1:22:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I think uh uh this particular advice, which I think I I got from a lot of mentors and all uh Amit, go slow.
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_02: You are too fast in life to go.
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Don't think about too, and this is this has happened uh with my mentors, with my bosses, with my most of the discussions in my career progressions.
• 1:23:06
  SPEAKER_02: Amit, I know you have to achieve things much faster.
• 1:23:09
  SPEAKER_02: Things go slow.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_02: Life, life is not, and I I think I'm I'm able to practice, I would be very honest in terms of 50% of it, not 100%, because uh for me, as I say, agility is inbuilt in me.
• 1:23:21
  SPEAKER_02: It is it is positive and negative, but uh that is something as a as I advise which most of the I would say around 90% of my particular thing.
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's it's not a it's it's not a race, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon.
• 1:23:33
  SPEAKER_02: You've already succeeded 50% of it, just just go slow.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_02: You also have other particular uh life to live, you also have other things to do in life, start focusing on that, start focusing on your particular list of to-do things that you need to uh build in, but not something that you need to finish everything with before you actually become whatever the age that you need to look for.
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Very nice.
• 1:23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so if you uh if you were to uh you know uh advise an 18-year-old in an university today, what would be the piece of advice that you would give them?
• 1:24:08
  SPEAKER_02: The only advice because that that's the same age my son also has.
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the the fact of that is that how much higher how does he take my advice because I think he means he's much more smarter than me when I when I was 18 and I I didn't have that.
• 1:24:21
  SPEAKER_02: But but on a serious note, in terms of advice to any particular thing of 18 years and specifically who who thinks from a marketing domain to uh to pursue uh because this is the conversation to look for it.
• 1:24:32
  SPEAKER_02: Please be as open you can be in your reception, don't only be relying on obviously academics, uh very important, fundamentals very important, your uh basic principles very important, but explore the market on the real market itself, not the market from the ground.
• 1:24:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh explore the market from the ground, not from the textbook that you can actually explore.
• 1:24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Don't don't get into the habit of getting frameworks and having that.
• 1:24:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's very good to understand, very good to also explain, but very hard to implement.
• 1:25:04
  SPEAKER_02: The actual learning and implementation happen on the ground.
• 1:25:07
  SPEAKER_02: Visit as much market visits that you can do.
• 1:25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Explain and understand.
• 1:25:11
  SPEAKER_02: You will not get good amount of response, sponsor reception, but your learning would be enormous.
• 1:25:15
  SPEAKER_02: Second thing which is most important is try to always uh recalibrate every three to five years yourself.
• 1:25:21
  SPEAKER_02: Just try and see is this the right uh way I'm moving.
• 1:25:24
  SPEAKER_02: Last but not the least, on the same topic, uh Swami, just just try and see how can you become a micro specialist.
• 1:25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Don't be a generic marketer, be a micro specialist, because that will actually you will be very, very few people who are the few starters will have that amount of experience from a micro specialist standpoint.
• 1:25:41
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 1:25:44
  SPEAKER_01: What is one piece of uh uh you know one piece of uh belief that you have, okay, uh that somebody else, uh many people uh you know, don't agree with you on.
• 1:25:59
  SPEAKER_02: So one thing which which and and it's not many people, I think I can they mostly don't believe in that, and I believe in that, see uh as as you rightly mentioned, success has a very different meaning and connotation and definition to it.
• 1:26:12
  SPEAKER_02: I always believe in in success and happiness are interrelated.
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_02: If you're happy, you're able to get success.
• 1:26:19
  SPEAKER_02: If you're successful, you can be happy.
• 1:26:20
  SPEAKER_02: But what is success and happy is different.
• 1:26:23
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, it is it is not about designations, it's not about positions, it's not about organizations, it is the value that you actually do and you're able to do uh in that uh proposition, and that is what is most of the people don't agree today because some of the things even and there are a lot of conversions say that even you have after 25 years, if you're saying that you you don't have that uh particular happiness, then then obviously you you are not a very satisfied.
• 1:26:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's no difference of there's no relation between satisfaction, success is what you have worked for, is that is success.
• 1:26:56
  SPEAKER_02: If that is giving you happiness, that is what I believe.
• 1:26:59
  SPEAKER_02: But fortunately, unfortunately, I could not convince this particular thought to most of the people, and that is that is how it is.
• 1:27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Great, it's a very nice way of uh you know articulating it.
• 1:27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if you were to uh you know invite uh a couple of you know dream marketers from whom you want to learn, okay.
• 1:27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, who would you want to be on the table talking to?
• 1:27:22
  SPEAKER_02: Very difficult questions for me because I would say many many marketers uh I would have looked for it in different places uh to look for.
• 1:27:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I have learned and I'm still learning from most of it.
• 1:27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Names would be very, very difficult uh uh to pull it across.
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_02: But the only thing which I always keep my ears and eyes open, anything that and I I I do as a practice if I find a very good relevant article on somewhere, I will just try to pin that particular person on LinkedIn or if the uh email ID is available.
• 1:27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that how I can actually just break a conversation from it.
• 1:27:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I I recently I can't I could can't take the name there, but I recently just have a conversation one of the uh very, very big uh uh giant FMCG.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_02: Organization and and she came out with a very very good uh idea in terms of what what exactly should be the nomenclature of uh advertising to look for, and very very beautifully articulated.
• 1:28:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I just texted her in terms of uh, and obviously I didn't expect that she will respond after five or six weeks.
• 1:28:17
  SPEAKER_02: She responded and said that only difference that I found that everybody was thanking and appreciating thing.
• 1:28:22
  SPEAKER_02: You you were the only person who had one particular query and one observation.
• 1:28:25
  SPEAKER_02: So let's let's connect to so I think it would be many.
• 1:28:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh sorry, I could not get into the name specific to it because uh uh it will actually be justice and injustice to a lot of people who actually contributed making great attention.
• 1:28:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's your uh prerogative to say, but uh what's important is uh you know, uh I think uh it's important to uh you know ask that question.
• 1:28:47
  SPEAKER_02: The the idea for me which I which I see and that's what I follow today is, and that's why I could not put and by the reason being not put in the means is anybody, and I said anybody from from 18 years to an 80 years who can actually contribute in my particular learning, increasing that particular field, can have a conversation.
• 1:29:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think that is that is what I feel are very important.
• 1:29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what's the book you're currently reading?
• 1:29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's a very interesting uh book, uh which is which is uh nothing to do on marketing, which is which is I will just have I can show it to that uh it's it's basically the uh a lot of people talk about ecosystems, but people really don't get into what exactly the ecosystem is.
• 1:29:23
  SPEAKER_02: So this this is ecosystemized your business is is a book, uh it's a book, I'll just show it to you.
• 1:29:28
  SPEAKER_02: This this is the book uh I'm currently uh uh reading and referring to.
• 1:29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Ecosystemize your business.
• 1:29:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so the reason which which I'm I picked up as a part of the collection to look for it, because uh, if you say uh frameworks, ecosystems are something which is under the sun most abuse worked after uh strategy and and digital and transformation that you actually taught.
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_02: But this gives a real sense in terms of how you can actually utilize those particular concepts in your day-to-day business.
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I've I've just started, I think, uh very three or four days, but very interesting.
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_02: The way it has been narrated, it's very interesting to build up.
• 1:30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic, fantastic.
• 1:30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Amit, it was an absolute delight talking to you.
• 1:30:07
  SPEAKER_01: The width and depth of experience that you you know spoke about, what a marketer needs to have is something that I think will stay in my mind, and I'm sure it's going to stay in our audience's mind for a long time.
• 1:30:21
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of things to learn from, a lot of things to leave behind, I would say unlearned.
• 1:30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you've really articulated it very well.
• 1:30:29
  SPEAKER_01: And thanks a ton for your time.
• 1:30:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it was uh pure refreshing one and a half hours that I've had with you, and I'm sure this is going to be a huge learning for many of the audiences and marketing professionals who are going to be listening to this conversation.
• 1:30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks a lot.
• 1:30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Asunda, for having Swami for this uh entire uh uh conversation.
• 1:30:52
  SPEAKER_02: I and I really look for it because after a very long time, I actually thought of having such a detailed conversation on marketing, it actually refreshed a lot of my mind's uh Swami on the entire things.
• 1:31:02
  SPEAKER_02: And frankly speaking, uh, really thanks to you because in a Saturday evening, getting those particular conversations, thinking about what we have done, some of the questions which I this this light launch thing which it just struck to me that this is something which we actually I never thought, at least if you ask me in the last five, six years, I've never even thought of it because it's gone there, been there, done there, and you move ahead and talk.
• 1:31:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, very interesting, and I think the best part that the way you actually uh conducted the entire conversation today, the way you actually I never thought of that it is actually having a particular recording or discussion, or it is just a normal two friends discussing which you and me we do a lot of times, a lot of times to discuss it just normally as a topic too.
• 1:31:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a fantastic, fantastic way to do it.
• 1:31:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think all the best to your particular channel.
• 1:31:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think it will do well.
• 1:31:42
  SPEAKER_02: I have I've the best part is since I was preparing for this particular session, I have to listen to everything which I just mentioned in the during, and it has a lot of uh value.
• 1:31:49
  SPEAKER_02: The way you're actually trying to do, you're actually trying to create a knowledge sequence which people will really benefit, which is actually missing today in any industry, any form and format.
• 1:31:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think this will actually all the best to you, and I think this will actually have a lot of success uh already unwind and moving forward.
• 1:32:05
  SPEAKER_02: All the best.
• 1:32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, thanks, Amit.
• 1:32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks a lot.
• 1:32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening to this episode.
• 1:32:12
  SPEAKER_01: For selected links and detailed show notes, visit www.contramines.com slash blog.
• 1:32:20
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• 1:32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening and stay safe.