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Bengals Booth Podcast: So Special · Bengals Booth Podcast

0:03
Speaker 1: Hi, get everybody. I'm Dan Horde and thanks for downloading
0:06
Speaker 1: the Bengals Booth podcast. The I'm Special So Special addition,
0:14
Speaker 1: as I discussed the NFL's new kickoff rules and a
0:16
Speaker 1: few other important topics with Bengals Special Teams Coordinator Darren Simmons.
0:22
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Speaker 1: a quick reminder that you can have the latest edition
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Speaker 1: of this podcast delivered write to your phone, tablet, or
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Speaker 1: computer by subscribing wherever you get your podcasts. It's the
0:53
Speaker 1: greatest thing since the Larry Bird statue in Tara Hate, Indiana.
0:59
Speaker 1: I was in tear this week to broadcast Cincinnati's game
1:02
Speaker 1: versus Indiana State in the NIT and while I was
1:05
Speaker 1: not surprised to see a Larry Bird statue outside of
1:08
Speaker 1: the arena at his alma mater, I was stunned by
1:12
Speaker 1: how tall it is. It's slightly more than seventeen feet
1:15
Speaker 1: tall from the sidewalk to the top of the basketball
1:19
Speaker 1: raised over his head. Now here's the fun part of
1:21
Speaker 1: the story. There's a statue of Magic Johnson at Michigan
1:25
Speaker 1: State that's twelve feet tall. The Larry Bird statue was
1:29
Speaker 1: specifically designed to be taller than Magic's. Johnson won more
1:35
Speaker 1: NBA titles five to three, and when they went head
1:38
Speaker 1: to head in the finals, the Lakers won two out
1:41
Speaker 1: of three. But when it comes to statue height, Larry
1:46
Speaker 1: Legend reigned supreme. Now let's get to football. In twenty eleven,
1:52
Speaker 1: in an attempt to cut down on the number of
1:54
Speaker 1: injuries that occurred on kickoffs, the NFL moved the spot
1:58
Speaker 1: of the kickoff from the thirty yard yard line to
2:00
Speaker 1: the thirty five. That led to fewer returns. Unfortunately, as
2:05
Speaker 1: kicker's legs became stronger, the kick return became a rarity.
2:10
Speaker 1: Last year, only twenty two percent of kickoffs were returned,
2:14
Speaker 1: and in the Super Bowl all thirteen kickoffs were touchbacks.
2:19
Speaker 1: As a result, the NFL dramatically changed the kickoff rule
2:23
Speaker 1: this week, adopting rules that were pioneered in the XFL.
2:28
Speaker 1: Here are some of the key changes. The ball is
2:31
Speaker 1: still kicked from the thirty five, but if you kick
2:34
Speaker 1: it into the end zone or out of the end
2:35
Speaker 1: zone for a touchback, the ball goes out to the
2:38
Speaker 1: thirty yard line instead of the twenty five. That's meant
2:42
Speaker 1: to discourage teams from kicking it into the end zone.
2:46
Speaker 1: If you kick the ball short of the twenty yard
2:48
Speaker 1: line in the air or kick it out of bounds,
2:51
Speaker 1: the return team gets the ball at the forty yard line.
2:55
Speaker 1: The so called landing zone is between the twenty yard
2:58
Speaker 1: line and the goal line. Any kick in that zone
3:02
Speaker 1: must be returned. Additionally, if a kick hits the ground
3:06
Speaker 1: in the landing zone and then bounces or rolls into
3:09
Speaker 1: the end zone, it can either be returned or downed,
3:12
Speaker 1: but if it's downed, the returning team only gets the
3:15
Speaker 1: ball at the twenty. That's meant to encourage returns. In
3:20
Speaker 1: order to make the kickoff safer, the coverage team lines
3:23
Speaker 1: up at the other team's forty yard line, twenty five
3:26
Speaker 1: yards ahead of the ball. Nine members of the return
3:30
Speaker 1: team are lined up between five and ten yards away.
3:33
Speaker 1: They're in close proximity in order to cut down on
3:36
Speaker 1: dangerous high speed collisions, and those players can't move until
3:40
Speaker 1: the ball hits the ground or one of the two
3:43
Speaker 1: returners who have to line up in the landing zone. Finally,
3:48
Speaker 1: since nobody lines up close to the kicker on side,
3:51
Speaker 1: kicks must be declared in advance and can only be
3:55
Speaker 1: attempted in the fourth quarter or over time. For those
3:59
Speaker 1: of us who having watched the XFL, it can all
4:02
Speaker 1: be pretty confusing. That's why I sat down this week
4:05
Speaker 1: for an in depth conversation with Bengals special team scoordinator
4:09
Speaker 1: Darren Simmons, who was heading into his twenty second season
4:13
Speaker 1: in Cincinnati. Darren, last year, nearly eighty percent of NFL
4:19
Speaker 1: kickoffs were not returned. Did you agree with the notion
4:22
Speaker 1: that a change was needed?
4:24
Speaker 2: Oh, I think it was absolutely necessary. I knew midway
4:29
Speaker 2: through the season that we can't keep doing what we're
4:31
Speaker 2: doing here and keep this play a relevant part of
4:33
Speaker 2: the game which couldn't affect the game.
4:35
Speaker 3: You know, normally.
4:37
Speaker 2: In a regular game, there are probably twenty five to
4:42
Speaker 2: thirty special teams plays total, and I review each of
4:46
Speaker 2: those with our team after the game. And yet you know,
4:51
Speaker 2: I start canceling out. I started deleting all the plays
4:54
Speaker 2: that are touchbacks, there's really nothing to coach off of
4:56
Speaker 2: the next thing, you know, there's twelve or thirteen relevant
4:58
Speaker 2: plays in a special teams game. So I knew we
5:02
Speaker 2: had to do something different than we just couldn't keep operating.
5:05
Speaker 3: We were operating.
5:06
Speaker 1: The NFL makes rules changes every year, but most of
5:09
Speaker 1: them are slight tweaks. This is a radical change. You've
5:14
Speaker 1: been coaching at one level or another for thirty years, basically,
5:17
Speaker 1: has there been anything remotely comparable?
5:20
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. You know, we made some
5:23
Speaker 2: pretty cool radical changes in twenty eighteen. We eliminated the wedge.
5:28
Speaker 2: We eliminated certain types of double team blocks and trap blocks,
5:31
Speaker 2: and I thought that was pretty radical back in twenty eighteen.
5:34
Speaker 2: But this is going to be wholesale.
5:36
Speaker 3: You know.
5:36
Speaker 2: Ever since the rule passed, I've been hesitant to do
5:39
Speaker 2: a lot of extra work on this prior to it passing,
5:44
Speaker 2: just because I didn't know exactly which way it was
5:48
Speaker 2: going to go. But now that since the rules passed,
5:52
Speaker 2: I've been trying to get our playbook back in order,
5:54
Speaker 2: and this is the most change that I've had to
5:57
Speaker 2: make to the playbook since I first started, you know,
5:59
Speaker 2: way bay way back. So there is it's a substantial change.
6:03
Speaker 2: There's gonna be a lot that goes into it.
6:05
Speaker 1: So the new NFL rule is a modified version of
6:08
Speaker 1: what they've done in the XFL for the last couple
6:10
Speaker 1: of years. Did you watch XFL games before there was
6:14
Speaker 1: any discussion of this coming to the NFL, just out
6:16
Speaker 1: of your curiosity?
6:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually did it a year ago. You know.
6:22
Speaker 2: I was a part of a group of coaches that
6:23
Speaker 2: that the NFL brought up to the NFL films in Philadelphia,
6:27
Speaker 2: and we discussed changes a year ago, and so I
6:30
Speaker 2: knew this was the XFL model was on the back
6:33
Speaker 2: burner a little bit, and we couldn't really come to
6:35
Speaker 2: a great consensus a year ago. You know, when when
6:40
Speaker 2: the health and safety people brought up the XFL kick
6:43
Speaker 2: off to us as coaches, everybody kind of, you know,
6:48
Speaker 2: didn't really know what to think because I'd never really
6:50
Speaker 2: seen the play. Thought I was kind of a gimmicky
6:51
Speaker 2: looking thing until you actually put the tape on, and uh,
6:55
Speaker 2: you know, if you pause an NFL kickoff play when
7:00
Speaker 2: the returner catches it versus what the XFL model looked like,
7:04
Speaker 2: then it wasn't all that dissimilar that they were actually
7:06
Speaker 2: actually relatively close to being the same, not exactly by
7:11
Speaker 2: a stretch of the imagination when you have players of
7:13
Speaker 2: different speed levels from the NFL model, but you know,
7:18
Speaker 2: there was a lot to go off of. I've looked
7:21
Speaker 2: at every XFL kickoff, every play for the for the
7:25
Speaker 2: past couple of years, you know, and it's it's really
7:29
Speaker 2: about educating myself. What are the different schemes, what are
7:32
Speaker 2: the what are the different techniques that that they tried
7:36
Speaker 2: to employ, How would it how would it look for us?
7:39
Speaker 2: What are the things that we need to do differently
7:41
Speaker 2: for our league relative to what the XFL did. And
7:45
Speaker 2: we think we come up with a plan that h
7:48
Speaker 2: or a model for us, the NFL hybrid model that
7:51
Speaker 2: you know, tries to satisfy as many of the deficiencies
7:54
Speaker 2: that we saw in the XFL play and make it
7:57
Speaker 2: a relevant, exciting play for us.
7:59
Speaker 1: Were there other I ideas that were close to being adopted?
8:03
Speaker 1: Was it a close call that ultimately all right, this
8:05
Speaker 1: is the one we'll go with.
8:06
Speaker 2: No, Because we had the same issue a year ago.
8:09
Speaker 2: You know, the health and safety people have come to us,
8:12
Speaker 2: you know, I feel like the Special Teams.
8:13
Speaker 3: Group gets attacked.
8:14
Speaker 2: It's every single year, like we're trying to, you know,
8:18
Speaker 2: fend off the lions, the health and safety people that
8:22
Speaker 2: are always coming to attack us for you know that.
8:25
Speaker 2: You know, and I do get it from a player
8:27
Speaker 2: safety standpoint. We are trying to keep the players as
8:29
Speaker 2: safe as we possibly can, right So I get.
8:31
Speaker 3: That part of it.
8:32
Speaker 2: And they have a job to do and we had
8:33
Speaker 2: at the same time, I have the job to do too.
8:35
Speaker 2: We're still trying to make this play exciting. And you know,
8:39
Speaker 2: there was a lot of issues that we discussed a
8:41
Speaker 2: year ago. We actually discussed you know, the USFL. There
8:44
Speaker 2: were two leagues, the USFL and the XFL. The XFL
8:49
Speaker 2: used a model that we used. The USFL actually used
8:54
Speaker 2: our model, but they backed up and kicked off from
8:56
Speaker 2: the twenty yard line, and they were trying to create
8:59
Speaker 2: more speed and more space and give blockers or give
9:02
Speaker 2: cover players the opportunity to more room to beat blockers.
9:06
Speaker 2: And uh, that's actually, oddly enough, what the UFL has adopted.
9:11
Speaker 2: They adopted the us USFL model, But I think there's
9:13
Speaker 2: a reason why for that. The commissioner of the us
9:17
Speaker 2: FL was Darryl Johnston. When those two leagues merged and
9:21
Speaker 2: combined in the UFL, Darryl Johnson is still the commissioners.
9:24
Speaker 2: They just adopted his rule from the USFL. So people
9:27
Speaker 2: are going to make a big deal about that. Why,
9:30
Speaker 2: you know, we took a model that they're not going
9:33
Speaker 2: to use in this other league, and and you know,
9:37
Speaker 2: I just don't think our health and safety people could
9:39
Speaker 2: ever wrap their head around us back in the kickoff
9:44
Speaker 2: up and creating more speed, more space, and more collisions.
9:47
Speaker 2: And you know, I tend to agree with that. So
9:49
Speaker 2: that that that was the reason we kind of stuck
9:51
Speaker 2: with this XFL model. We thought we could make tweaks
9:54
Speaker 2: to it that would make it better for us. There
9:58
Speaker 2: were a lot of holes in what they did. You know,
10:00
Speaker 2: I give them credit. They did a lot of work
10:04
Speaker 2: on trying to get it off the ground, and they
10:06
Speaker 2: did and hopefully, I think we're going to have the
10:09
Speaker 2: ability of the same things. If there are things that
10:11
Speaker 2: we don't like or are not working exactly like I
10:14
Speaker 2: wanted to, I think we're gonna have the ability to
10:15
Speaker 2: make small tweaks and adjustments. You know, maybe after the
10:19
Speaker 2: end of the preseason. If we go through the preseason
10:21
Speaker 2: and see things. Oh man, I wish we would have
10:22
Speaker 2: done this. I think we're going to give us the
10:24
Speaker 2: opportunity and maybe make some amendments if we need to,
10:27
Speaker 2: to try to make it better.
10:29
Speaker 1: Do you see college and high school football going to
10:32
Speaker 1: a rule like this or something like it in the
10:33
Speaker 1: years to come?
10:34
Speaker 2: Well, I think it all depend on what it looks
10:36
Speaker 2: like in our game. It seems to be a bit
10:40
Speaker 2: of a theme. You know, we tried to adopt what
10:42
Speaker 2: college football used and implement the fair catch last year
10:46
Speaker 2: and it really didn't have the desired effect.
10:47
Speaker 3: You know, it really would have. Did it increased touchbacks?
10:51
Speaker 3: We didn't.
10:51
Speaker 2: You know, there was nineteen hundred and seventy I think
10:55
Speaker 2: touchbacks last year and ninety fair catches, so you know,
10:59
Speaker 2: we're talking about a little over two thousand plays. It
11:03
Speaker 2: really didn't matter, and we believe that the return percentage
11:10
Speaker 2: the league has told us the analytics people at the
11:12
Speaker 2: league office told us they believe the return for scenes
11:14
Speaker 2: will be somewhere upround eighty to eighty five percent, So
11:17
Speaker 2: you know, hopefully it will be about sixteen hundred more
11:19
Speaker 2: plays league wide, so little interesting to see.
11:22
Speaker 1: So instead of twenty percent being returned you're hoping more
11:25
Speaker 1: like eighty percent, all right, So I picked out a
11:27
Speaker 1: few specific things that I want to ask you about.
11:30
Speaker 1: If you have a traditional touchback, now the ball goes
11:33
Speaker 1: out to the thirty instead of the twenty five, is
11:36
Speaker 1: five yards enough to discourage most teams from just blasting
11:40
Speaker 1: it out of the end zone.
11:41
Speaker 3: Well, that wasn't the initial proposal. The initial proposal was
11:44
Speaker 3: taken out.
11:45
Speaker 2: To the thirty five, which would really, I think, help
11:48
Speaker 2: discourage that. But I think there was a couple of
11:50
Speaker 2: coaches on the competition committee that felt like that the
11:54
Speaker 2: thirty five yard line was too big of a penalty
11:58
Speaker 2: to the kicking team. Say it, you're at the end
12:00
Speaker 2: of a game and you kick a field goal with
12:04
Speaker 2: thirty seconds le after score a touchdown to take the lead, like,
12:07
Speaker 2: you want to have the ability to kick ball in
12:08
Speaker 2: the back of the end zone and take it out
12:09
Speaker 2: of the returner's hands. And so I think they came
12:13
Speaker 2: to consensus that they would move it back to the thirty.
12:15
Speaker 2: So I think that'll be a bit of a feeling
12:17
Speaker 2: out process if you look at the you know, the
12:19
Speaker 2: league ultimately scoring has been slightly down the last couple
12:23
Speaker 2: of seasons and I think in an effort to help
12:27
Speaker 2: improve that, they'd like to see the kickoff return drive
12:30
Speaker 2: start move up the field a little bit. It's been
12:32
Speaker 2: around the twenty five yard line about the same spot
12:35
Speaker 2: the touchbackspin for the last couple of years, so I
12:38
Speaker 2: think this is an effort also to move the drive
12:40
Speaker 2: start back up the field, give the offense a little
12:42
Speaker 2: bit of a shorter field to work on. So again,
12:46
Speaker 2: to answer your question, I think it's going to be
12:49
Speaker 2: it's going to be a fluid situation to see how
12:51
Speaker 2: teams try to manage that part of it.
12:55
Speaker 1: Since you watched every XFL kickoff, did most of the
12:58
Speaker 1: kickers try to kick it high and close to the
13:01
Speaker 1: sideline inside the ten? Or do they kick line drives
13:04
Speaker 1: that are hot to handle?
13:06
Speaker 2: Well, it's unique. So the XFL actually kicked off from
13:09
Speaker 2: the thirty yard line. They were five yards further back
13:11
Speaker 2: than what we were. But the difference is the XFL
13:15
Speaker 2: was a spring league, so they never had to deal
13:16
Speaker 2: with weather. And I think for us, you know that
13:19
Speaker 2: there was a part of a thought that why wouldn't
13:24
Speaker 2: we kick off from the thirty yard kickers or better
13:25
Speaker 2: than theirs are, But you know, how do you explain
13:30
Speaker 2: that to teams like Buffalo and New England that are
13:32
Speaker 2: playing in the New York's or in those East Coast
13:36
Speaker 2: teams like that that are northern teams, that you know
13:39
Speaker 2: what happens when the weather gets to be really cold
13:41
Speaker 2: and it's really windy in January and December. You know
13:44
Speaker 2: that sometimes it's going to be difficult just to get
13:46
Speaker 2: the ball past the twenty. So I think that there's
13:51
Speaker 2: going to be a lot of thought that goes into
13:54
Speaker 2: how you kick it. You know, Evan'll have no problem
13:58
Speaker 2: getting the ball down the field, you know.
14:00
Speaker 3: I think the.
14:04
Speaker 2: If you think about it, though, hangtime now really on
14:06
Speaker 2: a kickoff doesn't matter anymore.
14:08
Speaker 3: That that's the part.
14:09
Speaker 2: That I'm a little concerned about as we've we've kind
14:12
Speaker 2: of taken I think now what we're getting is a
14:14
Speaker 2: lot of they're gonna get a lot of field goal
14:16
Speaker 2: kicks on kickoffs because again, players can start on the
14:20
Speaker 2: touch or the catch, so hangtime doesn't matter. I think
14:25
Speaker 2: depth and accuracy is what's going to matter now, So
14:28
Speaker 2: you know, latterly horizontally on the field, where you put
14:31
Speaker 2: it and in depth is going to be a huge determinant.
14:33
Speaker 2: But in the XFL, I would tell you that a
14:35
Speaker 2: lot of the kicks that the teams were probably the
14:38
Speaker 2: best in coverage were the kicks that were widest and deepest.
14:42
Speaker 2: There are a lot of kicks that these kickers are
14:45
Speaker 2: hit up to the ten or twelve yard line. That
14:47
Speaker 2: I mean, these returners are running, you know, the other way.
14:50
Speaker 2: They're on top of the cover team before the cover
14:52
Speaker 2: team go and hit them. In some cases, So the XFL,
14:56
Speaker 2: the kicking team lined up at the thirty five, the
14:59
Speaker 2: return team lined up with the we're going to move
15:01
Speaker 2: back five yards. We're gonna be the kicking team is
15:04
Speaker 2: going to be at the forty to forty yard line.
15:06
Speaker 2: Seven players have to line up on the thirty five
15:09
Speaker 2: For US, two players can be within the next five
15:11
Speaker 2: yards from a thirty five to the thirty.
15:12
Speaker 3: So we're gonna be up the field a little bit
15:14
Speaker 3: more to give the cover players a.
15:16
Speaker 2: Better opportunity to get off blocks and still get off
15:19
Speaker 2: and make a tackle.
15:21
Speaker 1: I read one analyst who studied the XFL tape and
15:24
Speaker 1: said that the return is less about straight line speed
15:27
Speaker 1: and more about running back qualities like vision and shiftiness.
15:31
Speaker 1: Do you agree?
15:32
Speaker 3: I do agree? Yeah, I do agree.
15:34
Speaker 2: I do think though there are some there's some plays
15:36
Speaker 2: on there that where you can see the speed where
15:38
Speaker 2: the speed of the returner matters. I do certainly agree, though,
15:42
Speaker 2: because we're talking about a more confined area, confined box
15:48
Speaker 2: now that some of these players are being returned in.
15:50
Speaker 2: I do think that cutting ability of the returners and
15:53
Speaker 2: lateral movement like what you norm to see in Palmer
15:56
Speaker 2: turners is a bigger part of it, or it becomes
15:59
Speaker 2: a more integral in the past. What you look for
16:01
Speaker 2: in some qualities you look for in a kickoff returner.
16:04
Speaker 2: You want big, physical, tough, straight line fastest guys you
16:08
Speaker 2: can find. You know, That's why Brandon Wilson was an
16:12
Speaker 2: effective player for US. Brandon Wilson was a running back
16:15
Speaker 2: in college at Houston who was big and tough and
16:18
Speaker 2: physical and had great speed. And now I think you've
16:23
Speaker 2: got to have guys that you'd like to still have
16:25
Speaker 2: those same qualities, but the added dynamic is they got
16:28
Speaker 2: to be able to cut, They got to be able
16:29
Speaker 2: to jump around a cover player, jump around even a
16:31
Speaker 2: blocker for that matter, because the space is going to
16:34
Speaker 2: be less than what there used to be.
16:36
Speaker 1: Your kick returners from last year are still on the
16:38
Speaker 1: roster for now, tray Von Williams, Chase Brown, Chris Evans,
16:42
Speaker 1: Charlie Jones, who did it in college. How do you
16:44
Speaker 1: feel about that group and do you feel like you
16:46
Speaker 1: need to add a kickoff return guy.
16:50
Speaker 2: Well, I think you saw uniquely enough. I think you
16:52
Speaker 2: saw what Pittsburgh did yesterday. Pittsburgh signed Quaduroll Patterson, and
16:56
Speaker 2: you know, I think if he still has gas left
16:59
Speaker 2: in the tank, I haven't studied him in a bit,
17:01
Speaker 2: but if he does get he's the prototypical guy that
17:04
Speaker 2: you're looking for. He's a big, physical guy that hopefully
17:09
Speaker 2: you get to him before he can get really going
17:12
Speaker 2: because he's a tough guy to bring down. Because now
17:14
Speaker 2: the difference is I think, you know, we're going to
17:16
Speaker 2: have the jousting of the cover players or the sumo
17:19
Speaker 2: wrestling match of the cover players trying to get off blocks,
17:22
Speaker 2: mean while the return players were holding them, and you
17:24
Speaker 2: got a big two hundred and twenty five pound guy
17:26
Speaker 2: that runs in the low four fours trying to run
17:28
Speaker 2: past him or throw them. So I do think that
17:33
Speaker 2: there's going to be more value placed on that position
17:36
Speaker 2: what's been in the past. I mean, I think I
17:37
Speaker 2: think We had seventeen kickoff returns total last season, and
17:42
Speaker 2: so that's got to become a big part of, you know,
17:45
Speaker 2: helping us swim field position. I like the shiftiness that
17:49
Speaker 2: obviously that Charlie has, you know, from his pump return background.
17:52
Speaker 2: I'd like you know, I told I told Charlie right
17:55
Speaker 2: after he texted me right after the real pass, hees,
17:57
Speaker 2: what do you think of the rule?
17:58
Speaker 3: And I said, well, you better be in the weight room.
18:00
Speaker 2: You're gonna get hit and you've got to be able
18:02
Speaker 2: to to be able to physically enough to withstand those hits.
18:05
Speaker 2: And so I think it'll be unique to see what
18:06
Speaker 2: he how he comes back. He's ready for that, and
18:09
Speaker 2: it'll be unique to see with Chase Brown, you know,
18:11
Speaker 2: he's kind of the type of guy you're looking for,
18:14
Speaker 2: a guy that does have really, really good speed and
18:17
Speaker 2: hopefully he's got enough. I think he does have enough
18:19
Speaker 2: cutting ability and uh uh. He certainly has the toughness
18:22
Speaker 2: to do that stuff. And of course we have experienced
18:24
Speaker 2: guys in Travon and Chris who can do it as
18:26
Speaker 2: well too, so but you're gonna need You're gonna need
18:28
Speaker 2: multiple guys. You know, in the past we've lived with
18:31
Speaker 2: just one, just one guy back deep. Now you're gonna
18:34
Speaker 2: have to have two and uh, you have to have
18:36
Speaker 2: two legitimate guys back there.
18:39
Speaker 1: Well with Darren in a moment. But first, a quick
18:41
Speaker 1: reminder that the Bengals Booth podcast is brought to you
18:44
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18:47
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19:05
Speaker 1: You mentioned only seventeen returns last year, you only had
19:08
Speaker 1: to cover thirteen returns in your first year as the
19:11
Speaker 1: Bengals Special teams coordinator, the Bengals returned seventy four kickoffs
19:15
Speaker 1: and defended more than seventy. How does this change time
19:19
Speaker 1: on task? Are you going to have to spend much
19:21
Speaker 1: more time at practice working on kick return kick coverage?
19:25
Speaker 3: Well, I don't. I don't think that a lot of
19:27
Speaker 3: that will change for us.
19:28
Speaker 2: We really didn't change the way we practiced because it's
19:30
Speaker 2: it's difficult for me to control.
19:32
Speaker 3: You know, when you go into a Sunday, Like the
19:34
Speaker 3: past couple.
19:35
Speaker 2: Of seasons, it's difficult for me to control what's the
19:38
Speaker 2: weather going to be, what is the situation dictating the game.
19:41
Speaker 2: So we still practiced because I think a lot of
19:43
Speaker 2: there's a lot of carryover from even the techniques that
19:45
Speaker 2: you teach on kickoff coverage to the how they equate
19:48
Speaker 2: the punt coverage. It's still running in a field lane,
19:51
Speaker 2: it's still playing with specific leverage, and it's it's playing
19:54
Speaker 2: good team defense and team coverage there to know what
19:58
Speaker 2: the guy at the left and what the guy to
19:59
Speaker 2: your rights. But so I don't think it will change
20:04
Speaker 2: a lot, you know, on a weekly basis for us.
20:07
Speaker 2: It'll certainly be a big point offs for us throughout
20:09
Speaker 2: the off season here because there's going to be a
20:10
Speaker 2: lot of change in could change for music coach, I'm
20:13
Speaker 2: having to go, I'm gonna have to change the way
20:15
Speaker 2: we teach this play now.
20:17
Speaker 1: With blockers engaging coverage, players who aren't running at top speed,
20:22
Speaker 1: will returns become more like running plays?
20:25
Speaker 3: Well, I think there's I think there's some truth to that.
20:28
Speaker 2: You know, what I worry about is because we're in
20:31
Speaker 2: such close proximity, you know, a kickoff or term play
20:34
Speaker 2: used to be about timing.
20:36
Speaker 3: You know, this block has to occur, uh, or I
20:40
Speaker 3: should put it this way.
20:42
Speaker 2: Kickoff for term plays in the past are very close
20:44
Speaker 2: to some running plays on offense, like where you double
20:47
Speaker 2: team one defensive lineman and how that that the other
20:50
Speaker 2: offensive linement comes off to block a linebacker and the
20:53
Speaker 2: track of the running back matters very much because for
20:56
Speaker 2: the timing of that second offensive lineman to come off
20:59
Speaker 2: to the linebackers the track a running back takes and
21:02
Speaker 2: then time me how that'll happens. It's very similar to
21:04
Speaker 2: what a kickoff for turn player, what a kickoff or
21:06
Speaker 2: turn play was in the past.
21:07
Speaker 3: Now with the proximity.
21:09
Speaker 2: Of these players, you know, being within five yards of
21:12
Speaker 2: each other, it's a lot like offensive line play. And
21:15
Speaker 2: what I worry about is if there's too many single
21:18
Speaker 2: blocks that you know, in the past, officials have judged
21:23
Speaker 2: kickoff for turn plays a lot tighter than what they
21:25
Speaker 2: do offense and defensive line play. Meaning if the hands
21:28
Speaker 2: get outside the framework of the body, you're getting called
21:30
Speaker 2: for holding it. And I worry, I worry a lot
21:32
Speaker 2: about it. With the penalty rate will go up. It's
21:36
Speaker 2: going to go up because you're gonna have more plays
21:37
Speaker 2: that matter. But I just don't want I don't want
21:39
Speaker 2: to overtake the game. So it's gonna be interesting to
21:41
Speaker 2: see how that that part gets officiated.
21:43
Speaker 1: Do you have buddies in the XFL that you've been talking.
21:46
Speaker 3: To, Well, not yet, not to this point.
21:48
Speaker 2: Like I said, I didn't want to put the cart
21:49
Speaker 2: before the horse, Uh, not knowing how the specifically was
21:54
Speaker 2: was going to come out. Obviously, I've stayed and I've
21:56
Speaker 2: tried to keep Katie. I'm on the coaches Committee, Katie's
22:00
Speaker 2: on the competition committee. I've tried to share with her
22:02
Speaker 2: things that we've talked about. She shares some with me,
22:05
Speaker 2: the things that they talk about on the competition committee,
22:07
Speaker 2: the issues and and so I've stayed in pretty close
22:09
Speaker 2: dialogue with her. But yet I didn't know which way
22:11
Speaker 2: it was going to go. I really didn't until I
22:14
Speaker 2: think there's a ground swell support for it, you know,
22:18
Speaker 2: on Sunday and Mondays.
22:19
Speaker 3: It's it's it's you know.
22:20
Speaker 2: It's also interesting to see whatever the commissioner wants, he
22:22
Speaker 2: seems to.
22:23
Speaker 1: Get is well compensated, know if that's a good.
22:26
Speaker 3: Or bad thing, But he seems to get what he wants.
22:29
Speaker 1: Well, he was born in my hometown, So I have
22:31
Speaker 1: to support Roger Goodell with two returners back there, will
22:35
Speaker 1: you have more reverses and throwback passes and stuff like
22:39
Speaker 1: that in your playbook.
22:40
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's something that that's a very interesting
22:43
Speaker 2: part to look at now because everybody's going to be
22:45
Speaker 2: down at the same level and if you can get
22:46
Speaker 2: enough guys to squeeze the one side of the field.
22:48
Speaker 2: Is there throwback plays that that the factor in. There
22:52
Speaker 2: were several of those that were executed, you know, relatively
22:55
Speaker 2: well in the XFL that are you know, there's obviously
22:59
Speaker 2: examples of that are on tape as to how the work.
23:02
Speaker 2: But you have to have the guys that can execute that.
23:03
Speaker 2: You have to have the guys can throw, You have
23:05
Speaker 2: to guys that can catch back there, back deep. So again,
23:08
Speaker 2: we'll try to look at all those things to see
23:10
Speaker 2: what works best for us.
23:12
Speaker 1: All right, let's hit on some topics that do not
23:14
Speaker 1: have to do with the new kickoff rule. I was
23:16
Speaker 1: in the building a few days ago. I saw Brad
23:18
Speaker 1: Robbins working out what do you want him focusing on
23:22
Speaker 1: in the off season?
23:24
Speaker 2: Well, everything I think he needs to improve in every
23:27
Speaker 2: fast of his game. I think as a young punter
23:29
Speaker 2: a lot of time, young players in general, their biggest
23:32
Speaker 2: improvement should come between year one and year two because
23:34
Speaker 2: they know exactly what to expect. They know what a
23:37
Speaker 2: training camp feels like, they know what OTAs feel like,
23:39
Speaker 2: then what an end season feels like, and how they
23:42
Speaker 2: deal with you know, things physically in their bodies and
23:44
Speaker 2: how can they keep enough gas in their tank the
23:47
Speaker 2: punt from you know, the beginning or the beginning of
23:50
Speaker 2: August all the way through you know, the end of January.
23:54
Speaker 2: So I think it was an education for him on
23:57
Speaker 2: how the NFL game works. I think, just in just
24:01
Speaker 2: simple terms, consistency is something he's got to improve on immensely,
24:05
Speaker 2: you know.
24:05
Speaker 3: He uh he.
24:07
Speaker 2: He got off about as tough as start as you
24:08
Speaker 2: could possibly get off to in some difficult conditions in
24:11
Speaker 2: Cleveland year ago, and it was it was wendy, and
24:14
Speaker 2: it was raining, and we had a pun eleven times.
24:18
Speaker 2: So he got indoctrinated real fast what the NFL games
24:21
Speaker 2: like and and he had some bright moments. I think
24:23
Speaker 2: if you would ask him, he'd probably reiterate the same
24:26
Speaker 2: thing I do, and that we've got to improve. We
24:28
Speaker 2: got to improve quickly here to get us up into
24:31
Speaker 2: where we need to be. We've got to get field
24:32
Speaker 2: position flipped. He's got to get his gross average higher
24:36
Speaker 2: and more consistance. I thought he did a solid job
24:38
Speaker 2: with some of his directional punting. He did good with
24:40
Speaker 2: some situational punting. You know, we had two rookie gunners
24:46
Speaker 2: for the biggest portion of the year or two. And
24:48
Speaker 2: if you want to count Tyson Anderson as a rookie,
24:50
Speaker 2: he really is, and Andrea Yoshivash and then you got
24:52
Speaker 2: a rookie punter. So you know, there's certainly things that
24:57
Speaker 2: we need to rectify to in the plus fifty years,
25:00
Speaker 2: you know, we didn't. I don't think we executed well enough,
25:02
Speaker 2: whether it was the pont, whether it was the gunners
25:04
Speaker 2: down the ball in the plus fifty that that part's
25:07
Speaker 2: got to be better. We got to get balls down
25:08
Speaker 2: inside the ten, down inside the five yard line. So
25:11
Speaker 2: there's there's a Believe me, there's a ton of room
25:13
Speaker 2: for improvement from really all fats, not just him.
25:15
Speaker 3: From the coverage too.
25:16
Speaker 1: I think it's hard for us meeting fans and media
25:20
Speaker 1: to judge somebody's holding ability. It seemed okay. Was it good?
25:24
Speaker 1: Was it exceptional? How did he rate in that area?
25:27
Speaker 2: I thought he was good, you know, I I, uh,
25:29
Speaker 2: that was something. I think that that factored into it
25:31
Speaker 2: for me. You know, obviously he held for the uh
25:34
Speaker 2: Lou Grosen winner and Jake Moody at Michigan, so heat
25:37
Speaker 2: held for a high, high level kicker for several years
25:40
Speaker 2: at Michigan, and knowing the expectation of what was going
25:43
Speaker 2: to be asked to him with us having Evan here. Uh,
25:46
Speaker 2: you know, I felt very good about what he did,
25:49
Speaker 2: and even after the season, I still feel good.
25:51
Speaker 3: I thought he did a good job with that.
25:52
Speaker 2: I thought, uh, Cal does a good job of setting
25:54
Speaker 2: the plate form, but you know, I thought Brad did
25:57
Speaker 2: a really good job of executing it. He takes a
25:59
Speaker 2: very SHITU and you know, really for for him, it's
26:03
Speaker 2: half of his job. You know, the last time I checked,
26:05
Speaker 2: we got to score points. You score more points in
26:07
Speaker 2: the opponent to win the game. So, you know, a
26:10
Speaker 2: huge portion or even probably of the most important part
26:13
Speaker 2: of his job is holding the FOREV and getting him
26:15
Speaker 2: set up to have success.
26:17
Speaker 1: You've been asked many times since the end of the
26:18
Speaker 1: season about having competition at punter and training camp, and
26:21
Speaker 1: you've said that you would like to see that right now,
26:24
Speaker 1: the Bengals have ten draft picks. Is the organization okay
26:28
Speaker 1: with potentially drafting punters in back to back years?
26:32
Speaker 2: Well, I think if it improves your team, why not.
26:34
Speaker 2: You know, if you find something that helps you win
26:37
Speaker 2: a game or a couple of games, you know, I don't,
26:39
Speaker 2: I don't see any thing wrong with it. I think
26:42
Speaker 2: we did what we had to do last year and
26:45
Speaker 2: taking Brad, and we did take him, and I don't,
26:47
Speaker 2: I don't.
26:48
Speaker 3: I feel like it was a good choice.
26:50
Speaker 2: I obviously I'd like the production to be higher than
26:53
Speaker 2: what it was.
26:53
Speaker 3: I was. I was under the expectation to probably be
26:55
Speaker 3: a little better than that, And but I'm not.
26:58
Speaker 2: I'm actually excited to to get to work with him
27:01
Speaker 2: for the whole offseason again, excited to see where he
27:04
Speaker 2: the improvements that he's made on his own, you know,
27:06
Speaker 2: not only physical improvements, but even mental improvements and levels
27:11
Speaker 2: of confidence improvements. But if it also means that, you know,
27:15
Speaker 2: we have to put a draft pick on competition for
27:19
Speaker 2: him in here, then if that's what it takes, that's
27:20
Speaker 2: what it takes for us to improve.
27:22
Speaker 1: I know you go to pro days to study specialists,
27:25
Speaker 1: what about core special teamers? Is that a big part
27:28
Speaker 1: of your draft prep?
27:29
Speaker 2: Sure it is, you know, I've been studying evaluating the returners,
27:34
Speaker 2: you know, obviously with my eye more towards the kickoff
27:37
Speaker 2: return portion of it, which has not always been the
27:40
Speaker 2: case in the past because really with the limited number
27:43
Speaker 2: of plays. But now these kickoff returners are a bigger
27:47
Speaker 2: part of what I watch, and the next transition, I'll
27:50
Speaker 2: go to his position players that play other phases, And again,
27:56
Speaker 2: I think that that could have some effect. Maybe I
27:59
Speaker 2: don't know for sure yet, but it could have some
28:01
Speaker 2: effect on the way that we make up our roster.
28:04
Speaker 3: A little bit. You know.
28:05
Speaker 2: I do know that you only keep forty eight guys
28:08
Speaker 2: active on game day, so it's not like we can
28:10
Speaker 2: keep all fifty three. But you know, maybe we it
28:15
Speaker 2: changes a little way, maybe a little bit, the way
28:16
Speaker 2: that our roster structured on Sundays. Maybe we keep you know,
28:20
Speaker 2: a six linebacker instead of a six receiver or or
28:25
Speaker 2: I don't know, who knows, I don't know, we don't
28:27
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody really knows how that's going to
28:29
Speaker 2: plan out yet. But but yes, in terms of the
28:31
Speaker 2: valuation process, I do look at other players, especially in
28:35
Speaker 2: positions of need for us, you know, like safety or
28:37
Speaker 2: even a linebacker, tight end.
28:40
Speaker 3: All those.
28:42
Speaker 2: Things come into play for us. And then if there's
28:45
Speaker 2: ever any you know, if we have a couple of
28:46
Speaker 2: linebackers who are great at about the same level, well,
28:48
Speaker 2: who's the better special teams player who can bring more
28:50
Speaker 2: value to our roster? And so I think that comes
28:53
Speaker 2: into play.
28:54
Speaker 1: Ampa McPherson is going into the final year of his
28:56
Speaker 1: rookie contract. There are seven kickers in the NFL right
29:00
Speaker 1: now making more than five million dollars a year. Do
29:03
Speaker 1: you know if discussions have begun about extending Evan.
29:06
Speaker 2: No, I think that that thing will. I don't know
29:09
Speaker 2: that for a fact. I try to stay out of
29:11
Speaker 2: that area as much as I can. I do recognize
29:14
Speaker 2: it's a it's a relevant part, is a relevant part
29:16
Speaker 2: for him, but I try to stay out of that
29:19
Speaker 2: area as much as I can, and I just try
29:21
Speaker 2: to get him to make as many kicks as he
29:23
Speaker 2: possibly can. Obviously, somebody that we have a high degree
29:27
Speaker 2: of affection for, he's done a good job here for us.
29:31
Speaker 2: He's been he's been really superb for us in the clutch,
29:34
Speaker 2: and I think he recognizes, you know, what's at stake
29:39
Speaker 2: for him. I think he's recognized that since day one.
29:41
Speaker 2: You know that he wants to be, you know, a
29:45
Speaker 2: big part of this franchise and a big part of
29:46
Speaker 2: our success. And hopefully that'll hopefully something can get done.
29:49
Speaker 1: All right, final topic, you have a new assistant. Cold
29:52
Speaker 1: Anderson left with Brian Callahan for Tennessee to become his
29:55
Speaker 1: special teams coordinator. You have hired Ben Jacobs, who's been
29:59
Speaker 1: in Washington for the last last four years, as your assistant. Now,
30:02
Speaker 1: he was a core special teams player in his playing days.
30:05
Speaker 1: What impressed you about Ben in the interview process?
30:08
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's intensity. I mean he oddly enough,
30:12
Speaker 2: Ben was on our practice squad here for a week
30:15
Speaker 2: or two during one of those seasons early in his career.
30:17
Speaker 2: But you know, I've watched him from afar, from having
30:20
Speaker 2: coached against him, from all the different places he's been,
30:23
Speaker 2: whether it be a Carolina or you know, just the
30:25
Speaker 2: various places that he played, and he played with a
30:28
Speaker 2: level of recklessness and intensity that it's hard to find.
30:33
Speaker 2: And I've also watched him coach on the field in
30:36
Speaker 2: the same settings, whether it be in preseason games or
30:38
Speaker 2: you know, he's actually been the special teams coordinator for
30:41
Speaker 2: several of these postseason college bowl games, you know, the
30:45
Speaker 2: Shrine Bowl, even at the Senior Bowl, and so I've
30:48
Speaker 2: watched him coach from AFAR and I also, you know,
30:52
Speaker 2: obviously the way that the commanders play too on special
30:55
Speaker 2: teams is a direct reflection of what he brings. And
30:59
Speaker 2: so I've always respect to the toughness and the physicalness
31:02
Speaker 2: that the way that the Commander's played, I know he's
31:04
Speaker 2: had a hand in that, and so that affects also
31:07
Speaker 2: my opinion of what those guys do and how those
31:09
Speaker 2: guys are. And so I think that I'm excited for
31:13
Speaker 2: our players to get to know him a little bit.
31:14
Speaker 2: They'll see his passion, They'll see that he's transitioned from
31:18
Speaker 2: his playing days, and I think he understands now his
31:21
Speaker 2: job is to get those guys to play with the
31:23
Speaker 2: same toughness, the same same physicalness that he did, only
31:26
Speaker 2: at the higher level it with better execution. So no,
31:29
Speaker 2: I'm really excited that we got Ben. I think you'll
31:31
Speaker 2: fit well with our players, and you know, and with
31:35
Speaker 2: me too, So I'm excited.
31:37
Speaker 1: I've taken a lot of your time. I really appreciate it.
31:39
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by the new kickoff role. I think it's
31:42
Speaker 1: going to be fun to watch this year. We'll see
31:45
Speaker 1: how it goes. Thanks again, well, thanks for having me.
31:47
Speaker 2: I always enjoy, always enjoy talking with you for talking football.
31:50
Speaker 1: That's going to do it for this episode of the
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