Latest / Exit Algorithms / Supply Chain Hiring, Employee Retention & Exit Planning with Charlie Saffro (#31)

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Supply Chain Hiring, Employee Retention & Exit Planning with Charlie Saffro (#31) · Exit Algorithms

• speaker-0: Welcome to Exit Algorithms, the podcast where we decode what it really takes to unlock growth, streamline operations, and prepare your business for a high value exit. I'm your host, Pete Vera, and today I'm honored to be joined by Charlie Safro, founder and CEO of CS Recruiting, a boutique search firm specializing in logistics, transportation, and supply chain talent. Charlie bootstrapped the business from the ground up ⁓ over time scaled it to eventually become the number one supply chain recruiting firm in the country. So really excited to get into this, Charlie. Thanks for being on the show. speaker-1: Yeah, well, thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation. speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah, for listeners that haven't heard of you before, do you mind sharing a bit about your background, maybe some key moments in your business career? speaker-1: Sure, sure. Well, I'll start with saying, if you would have asked me in third grade what I wanted to be when I grew up, I never would have set a supply chain recruiter, but here I am. And my journey unfolded in kind of like an unexpected way, but I embraced it. So at a very high level, I started my career in marketing right out of college and had an opportunity to join my husband's company. He started up a firm. in the early 2000s that was in the transportation technology industry. ⁓ When I joined, they had about eight employees. They went through this growth spurt and got some funding and needed to hire. And I taught myself how to be a recruiter. That's really the easiest way to explain it. This is back way before LinkedIn was a thing. I used mostly Craigslist to find candidates. helped them grow their firm to about 110 employees before they sold it in 2010. So after that acquisition, I was kind of in between jobs. I did not stay on with the buyer company. And I was trying to figure out my next move in my career. I was also pregnant with my third son. So it was just a weird, weird time to start a new job. But I did what I knew how to do. And I kept connecting people. had people that would reach out to me with a resume or, hey, I know you did some recruiting, we need to hire, can you help us find someone? And probably spent about six months providing lots of free services and then realized one day, like, I could charge for this and I could make this a thing. one thing really just led to the next. And I started, you know, asking for small fees, started putting myself out there as an independent recruiter a little more. Obviously my focus stayed in the industry that I kind of grew up in as a recruiter and then really started my business. I say it was a little bit of an accident because it wasn't what I was planning, but I just seized opportunity and followed the leads to a point that I went out and hired my first employee and we scaled and grew since then. So that was 2010, I started the business. After 15 years of running it as the CEO, we sold it in December. And so we were acquired by a larger recruiting firm. And I'm sure we'll get into all that, but yeah, that's kind of the basis of where it all came from. And yeah, I just encourage people, like, don't get too hung up on what you think you're supposed to be doing because opportunities are just around every corner if you are open to them and keep your eyes out for them. speaker-0: Definitely. Yeah, I I appreciate it. Amazing story. It's funny, a lot of people in supply chain logistics seem to have a similar like, you know, I kind of, it found me. wasn't... speaker-1: Exactly. You just fall into it. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah, no, that's awesome. I was wondering if you could get into a little bit of the ⁓ early days and how you scale, maybe walk us through some of those difficult times and inflection points. speaker-1: Yeah, well, there's a lot of them. I think, you know, the first one was I landed a meeting with an entrepreneur. And this was at this point, I was on LinkedIn and we connected and he told me that he was starting a firm and needed to hire. And so I went into this meeting and, you know, I don't love the term like fake it till you make it, but that's really what I did. I just kind of had this conversation and he asked if I could help him hire a very high volume of employees in a short period of time and some confidence came over me and I was like, yeah, I can do that for you. And I remember getting in my car on the way home. drove a minivan. have three car seats in the back and that's when it hit me like, wait a second, how am going to do this? And it was a moment where I was like, I'm either going to sink or swim and make this happen or fail in my eyes. And ⁓ I just remember thinking like, how can I do this? I need support. so At the time I was in my early thirties. I knew I needed to hire someone right out of college that I could train and mentor. And I didn't know a lot of younger folks. So sent an email. ⁓ It's kind of a funny story, but it's, it's true that ⁓ I ended up finding my first employee because I sent an email to our third cousin who was in college or had just graduated college. She forwarded it to her college roommate who forwarded it to her. best friend from high school who forwarded it to her best friend from high school. And little did I know that it led me to my first hire, which was a woman named Beth, who today is still with me 15 years later and served as my COO. So that was really like the impetus of all of it is just like, yeah, let's see who I can network to and bringing on that first person is just what kicked us into high gear. And from there, there on, we just continue to scale and grow and Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of challenges that come with that. you, scale for opportunity, you scale to deliver, but you also can't always control the market. And we've had a lot of high points where we've hired at high volume and just needed great people on our team. But I'm also very real that like we had some low points where we had to make layoffs because the market just came to a halt when we least expected it. And we had just scaled up. yeah, building a team and it's a very, ⁓ I don't know, it's just like a very fine moment that you have to really pay attention to as an entrepreneur is when do you scale and what can you do with your resources and when do you really need to add more and how do you think about the future? Because every person you bring on as a human and that's something that really is important to me. Like I'm not hiring people to put them out of a job. I'm hiring them to hopefully retain them and give them opportunity and have them on my team. ⁓ but you really have to, it's just like a scale. You're constantly finding that equilibrium balance. speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. Oh, that's an awesome story. A few people now have talked to, interviewed on the show, that they also kind of took that leap of faith. know, Rockefeller also did that when he started out. He accepted an order for like thousands of barrels and he had no idea how he's gonna fill them. speaker-1: I've never heard that. love that though. Yeah, it's just like be resourceful. Like how are going to get this done? You made this commitment. So now you got to deliver. speaker-0: Absolutely, yeah. Is there anything now, looking back over the course of a company, is there anything you would do differently or change your approach if you had to start again from ground zero? speaker-1: Man, that's a good question. I wish I could predict the future and that would have changed my course. No, don't think so. mean, yes, I've made mistakes along the way and I'll be the first to admit those. But even when I think of the folks that we had on our team that aren't on our team today or left after a few years, I really think about the work we do. We are changing lives and I know that might sound like woo to some people, but. we're getting people jobs. And when we get someone a job, we change their whole trajectory. We change their family's dynamic. change, you we welcome them to a new opportunity where they have new colleagues and they're servicing clients. And so everyone who's ever been on my team has had that opportunity to change lives. And whether it was for a year or 10 years that they were part of our, family. I really think that like, that was an opportunity that kind of set them up for whatever came next for them. So definitely hard conversations, hard decisions. But again, I have to remind myself, like, I signed up for this and that's kind of what I always go back to, like, yes, this is hard and this is ⁓ very emotional to be a leader sometimes, but pressure is a privilege. Like that's something I always think about is people would love to have these problems. So I can acknowledge them as problems, but I also have to acknowledge that I'm lucky to have these problems. speaker-0: Yeah, that's a great attitude for sure. I imagine also, you know, having to raise kids as you're growing the business, can't have been easy. speaker-1: No, no, and I'll tell you a funny story that, you know, I started my business in 2010, had my third son in 2011. And when I hired Beth, my first employee, I lived in the suburbs of Chicago. She lived in the city and she, you know, part of her negotiation was commuting out to the suburbs and she would take a, you know, walk to the train station, take the train to a bus and then walk again to get to our office. When I started to think of it, was like, you know, I got an office first of all, once I hired her and, and, you know, made it, made it official. ⁓ but I didn't have childcare two days of the week. And so I made her a deal and said, listen, if you can come to the office Monday, Wednesday, Friday, we can both, you know, work from home on Tuesday, Thursday, because it also served me at the time. And what's funny is that created our culture. Like she started on that schedule and. for 10 years before the pandemic, we were hybrid. Everyone who joined our team worked from home two days a week. And obviously my kids grew up and they went to school and it wasn't because of childcare anymore. But it was just, was a part of our negotiation that served both of us. And when I think back and like what other, you know, entrepreneur would make a schedule cause they didn't have childcare. So they just let everyone work from home two days a week. But I think it helped us recruit a lot of great talent and retain a lot of great talent and ⁓ just having that flexibility and knowing like you're in the office three days, you're going to be, you know, working with coworkers, collaborating, having meetings those days. And the other two days, like that's your time to like put your head down to have maybe some of those confidential conversations. And it really shaped who we were as a company until obviously 2020, we all went remote full time and we've actually stayed remote since then. ⁓ but yeah, it was just, it's funny that we were hybrid for so many years before it became a thing. speaker-0: Yeah, wow, yeah, way before it's popular. speaker-1: Yeah, just because I had my kids in the background while I was hustling and no one knew that I was just doing my thing. speaker-0: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, and all those extra minutes, you know, instead of driving to the office, you get to spend with your family. speaker-1: Exactly. I think about that a lot. And yeah, I think, you know, the pandemic is as hard as it was for so many of us. Like, there is some good that came out of it and just people being more open to this idea of remote work or hybrid work and like how much more efficient you can be when you have that energy and you're not expending it on a commute and getting frustrated in traffic and, you know, getting dressed in the morning head to toe. Like, it's just a different way of working. ⁓ It's served our team very well to have that flexibility and it really just comes down to trust and hiring the right people that you trust can work autonomously. speaker-0: Yeah, ⁓ that's great. You're well poised for success when COVID came also. speaker-1: Exactly. Exactly. I mean, it was, it was not fun to pay rent for two years when we had an empty office, but I know I wasn't the only one in that situation. So, ⁓ but yes, exactly. Like we knew how to work remotely and we just, you know, I think our biggest shift was we started doing more video calls on, on, you know, when we were home versus before we always knew we would see our team the next day. ⁓ but that's really how, how we like, you know, started that, that idea of staying connected as a remote workforce. speaker-0: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, and then eventually you end up selling the business. I would love to hear if you have any takeaways for audiences, mostly business owners, but as they prep to sell their business. speaker-1: Yeah, mean, you know, what I'll say is that for 13 years, people would ask what my exit strategy was. And I felt almost like I was giving the wrong answer because I would say, I don't know. Like, I love what I do. And this is my fourth child. And I don't have an exit strategy because I think I could do this forever. And if I wake up one day and I change my mind, then I'll figure out what's next. I think it was a combination of a couple of things. First and foremost, we sold to a larger recruiting firm and we'd always specialized very much in supply chain, logistics, transportation, huge industry with lots of opportunity, but we were turning down a lot of searches with our clients because they didn't fall within our capabilities. for example, we would work with a manufacturer and we would help them with their procurement roles and manufacturing roles. ⁓ But if they needed a programmer or developer, we couldn't help them there and we'd refer them out to another firm. Same thing with, you if they needed people in the warehouse or in a manufacturing facility, we weren't doing seasonal or temporary staffing. So I would refer them out. And ⁓ it just started to catch up like, wait, there's opportunity here that I don't know if I can build this myself and, you know, hire the right people to expand our competency, but there's other companies out there that really have that infrastructure. So that was like the first idea is how do we be more of a single source provider to our clients? They like working with us. They want to give us more searches, but we're only going to take on searches that we can deliver on. So that was one. And then I'll also just be very honest that 2022, our industry took a major downturn. Like hiring started to freeze, know, just it was the aftermath of the pandemic and lots of fear in the market and lots of fear when it came to scaling and, you know, then potentially having to lay people off. And I think as a leader, it caught up with me emotionally. And, you know, I started to get into this place where I was like, I'm going, I can say now, like at the time I was thinking I'm going to burn myself out if I keep working like this and, you know, pouring everything in. Now I look back and I was like, I was burnt out. just didn't recognize it then. But what I'll tell you is I thought about it for about maybe 18 months, maybe two years. And it was, you know, compartmentalized way back in my mind. Like, you know, what, what is next? What does that look like? And honestly, I started putting it out there. Had a couple of conversations where, you know, the right people in a confidential setting asked me if I would ever be open to selling the business or you know, thinking about that next move and it took a lot of courage. remember the first time where I was just like, yes, I do think I'm open now. I never was, but now I am. And just admitting that and putting it into the universe led to an introduction to the owner of HireWell. And after, you know, many conversations and lots of diligence, we ended up selling to them in December of 25. So just recently. But I think, you know, speaker-0: Congratulations. speaker-1: Thank you. Thank you. No, it's and it's going great. I mean, we're 12 weeks, 13 weeks into the transition and lots of lots of transitioning, lots of integrating, which we all expected. ⁓ But I would say to business owners like one, don't let anyone else rush you. And it's OK if you're doing your thing and loving it. But you have to listen to that voice if one day you wake up and there might be something nagging you or something telling you that it's time to just. admit something or really, you know, think about it. Because I learned like, the minute I put it out there is when I started to get the responses. And if I never would have had that courage to even say, yes, I'll take the call. I don't think we'd be where we are today. So ⁓ yeah, and I mean, really, that's exactly what the partnership was about. They are ⁓ about a 25 year old firm, larger than our team. They do a lot of recruiting in the tech space. building a lot of positions that again, we would have avoided. And so our team has been able to kind of fit into their team as a supply chain practice and like this missing puzzle piece that they didn't have. And now we've got the support of their greater team and just a stronger infrastructure as we move forward. So ⁓ all good stuff, just hard decisions that got us here. speaker-0: Sure, yeah, that's awesome. I think that, yeah, big takeaway I just got is, you need to know why you're selling. Have concrete objectives post-sale, whether it be to grow the business or to get some of your time back. speaker-1: Yeah. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And you may not know what those are day one, but I think you have to be open to exploring. And I did talk to, you know, several different types of companies and really listened to my gut. And there were many phone calls I hung up and I was like, ⁓ man, like that is not a good fit. you know, for what I'm not necessarily because of the people, but maybe the business structure or their service offering. Because I did explore ⁓ potential. buyers that were not recruiting firms and you know, some of them just wanted our book of business. Some of them just wanted to hire me. But when we sold to hire well, our team was able to come over. We're able to really be the same recruiting firm to our clients, to the job seekers we work with. Just now we're bigger, stronger, faster, better than we were before. So that was really important to me to just, you know, maintain the integrity of the brand and ⁓ also bring the people with me who helped me build the business. we're still a unit doing what we've always done as a team. So that's a big perk of what came out of it. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. And that's not all that common either with some buyers. speaker-1: Yeah, I learned that. Yeah, I learned that those conversations. was like, wait, you don't want my team? They're great. And then, you know, once I found this match and they were interested in our expertise and, the people on my team who had built relationships and could bring those networks over, I was like, okay, this is what I've been looking for is just how do we transition but maintain everything that we've worked so hard to build together. speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah. Did you do any implement anything leading up like maybe the two years prior to the sale as far as either, you know, with your financials, getting them tidied up or hiring some, any people to, help make your business less owner dependent or anything like that? Yeah. speaker-1: No, I'm laughing because in retrospect I should have. ⁓ But again, it was very, I don't want to say it was out of the blue, but it happened so fast. was like you're, you I was an entrepreneur making all the decisions, managing. And again, like I had a team, I do not take credit for doing everything by myself, but I had a team, I had the right, you know, external partners supporting me, you know, lawyers, CPAs. ⁓ but no, there, didn't have a business broker. was really two owners that cared about their companies a lot and had been very hands on over the years. And we just saw eye to eye and started to really like unpack all these similarities and parallels around the way we started our businesses, ran our businesses. And, ⁓ yeah, kind of, kind of just did that myself. Although if I reflect back, I probably would have done things a little bit differently from a preparation standpoint and that probably would have made the diligence process a little easier. ⁓ But yeah, we got through it. speaker-0: Yeah, awesome. I found a really good fit, it sounds like. And I know you, well, you've yourself have hired a lot of team members and that's the space you're in. I'm sure you have a lot of ⁓ insight onto that. Do you see any common hiring mistakes business owners make? speaker-1: Yes, many. ⁓ And, you know, I come from the trucking industry, which is really rough and tough. And that's where I started. And we've expanded into supply chain and we're dealing with lot of executives, a lot of professionals. But I think a lot of leaders and hiring managers, especially in, you know, certain times of the market will call us and say, like, I just need a warm body. I just need, you know, a person in the seat. And I think that's probably the biggest mistake is we recruit talents so our clients can retain them. And I think that's something a lot of business owners and leaders don't realize. And like, I get it. I've been there where it's like frantic, like we just need people because we have opportunity, but you've got to recruit and retain people and it's a big cycle. So you take care of your employees, you retain them. It helps you recruit new employees. helps with referrals. It helps with your brand. It helps with this loyalty and longevity and even making training easier because we have so many tenured folks on our team. And I'd say that's probably the biggest mistake owners make. And they kind of get surprised when I say that as a recruiter because you'd think as a recruiter, like, yeah, recruit and then get rid of them and then let's fill the next seats. And that's going to bring us a lot of business if you always have a vacancy. ⁓ But we like to see companies grow and we want to be working on positions because there's growth and opportunity, not because somebody left and we have to backfill their role. So that's something I kind of preach, like you got to recruit to retain and retain to recruit and they're both part of the same strategy and philosophy. speaker-0: Yeah, oh that makes sense. Yeah, what are some strategies to retain good talent? speaker-1: It's so simple, Pete. think it's treating people like humans. And I think our world has lost a lot of that. ⁓ And, you know, society has shaped us to just, and I'm not just talking about like AI technology, that's part of it, but I think a lot of employees feel like they're just cogs in a machine or they're just another number and something we have done a lot. And we really like encourage our clients to do it as just know your people behind their title. Sure. They're. you know, a great VP of sales and they know how to use these technologies and they show up and they have the skill set to do the job. like, what else do they stand for? Are they a parent? What do they do on the weekends? Do they have hobbies? And it's so simple, like ask the questions. How was your weekend? One thing we've always done is our leadership team spends 15 minutes with every employee once a quarter. And it's a call that's truly just a catch up. I have no metrics in front of me. We're not talking about performance. Like, how are you? That's all I want to know and not pushy, like share what you're comfortable sharing. But that connection point helps me know who my employees are and what motivates them. not only does it help get them in the right role and retain them, but just create more satisfaction. And when people are happy, they're going to produce more. When they're confident and comfortable, they're going to be better employees. Again, I think it's just, it's a miss many times when it's just like, God, it would have been so simple to just show that you care. Like that's it. So you care, ⁓ you know, acknowledge their work anniversary, something so simple that so many companies don't do. But like, that's a big deal. That's a milestone. And it, it doesn't have to be a Rolex, you know, it could just be a card or an email or a quick shout out, but it's so many little things that add up. And I think that's Where so many companies go wrong, think they have to implement some huge ⁓ appreciation recognition program. No, it's just being a good human, just being a good person. speaker-0: Yeah, ⁓ I love that answer. Yeah, definitely. It's kind of, it's game of inches and you show that you care over time and with small actions repeatedly. speaker-1: Exactly. I like that phrase. I've never heard that, but you're right. It's just, yeah, small steps that get you to a much bigger reward. speaker-0: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, and you mentioned AI. That's a major theme of this podcast and how people are implementing technology. I'd love to hear from your perspective. How has that affected your business? speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, I think there's two points here because I think ⁓ it affects us as recruiters and it also reflects the work we do because our clients are, you know, how they're using technology and how they're growing their workforce with technology. But I think if I had to sum it up, like I'm all for technology creating efficiencies and helping us eliminate some of those administrative tasks and At the end of the day, it frees up more time, not so I can eliminate headcount or not so people can work 20 hour weeks. It frees up time for you to be more human, to build relationships, to be more intentional, ⁓ to just be more deliberate with the work you're doing, the conversations you're having. So I think that's a big theme in our industry. ⁓ A lot of companies are just assuming like, we'll implement AI and we won't need to hire more people or we'll be able to get rid of half of our staff. And then they start to realize, well, if one person can do triple the work now and every person we hire can do triple the work because of this, you know, technology and the support we're getting, like now we can really grow our business and take advantage of that. So I think that's on that side of the business as a recruiter. And I, you know, I think they. There's been an old wives' tale since technology hit the scene, like, you won't need recruiters one day. It's going to be all tech enabled. And I don't believe it. And even today, where we're seeing so much automation and so many bots and agents doing the work, you still need a human. like I said before, we have an important job as recruiters. We are getting people jobs. We are helping them with their career. And there's emotions. There's judgment, there's thinking outside the box, there's being resourceful and creative. And those are things like a human needs to do. And even with the best prompt out there, technology is not going to be able to do that for us. So ⁓ if anything, would say where the recruiting industry is really suffering because of AI right now is just everything being driven by bots and it's not good. It's like getting, you know, thousands of resumes for job posting, but half of the people that applied didn't even know they applied. They just clicked and auto apply when they uploaded their resume somewhere and they don't even know what jobs it's going to. you know, people are taking job descriptions and customizing resumes and just, you know, asking chat GPT to do it for them. And then not even looking at it to realize like, wait, that doesn't even represent my experience anymore. Or I don't have those skills. I just let the, you know, the bot. plug in the right keywords so I'm noticed. So if anything, it's just creating a lot of noise and distraction right now that I think even employers are starting to realize. Like they may think for a moment, ⁓ we could do this ourselves now because of AI can write our job descriptions and manage some of the process. But they realized very quickly, like, it actually just got more hectic than it was before. And now we actually need a human and someone who understands talent. So I think. It's great, it's gonna help us in so many ways, but it's not gonna replace us. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that. ⁓ That's funny. So it's really created a lot of noise, actually, rather than make it more efficient necessarily for at least in the recruiting space. speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. And now it's like, now we need new technology to filter out the noise because we're getting so many resumes and I mean, you know, so many like scam artists and people catfishing. And I know that's a thing that, you know, we haven't seen a ton of it directly, but I've been talking to a lot of clients where they're like, I think I just interviewed a robot and I don't even know if the person I talked to on the phone was a human and just understanding like what What is the purpose of all that? yeah, it's all just, you know, let's, let me get a job to the point that I get my first direct deposit paycheck. And then now, you know, these scam artists have bank information and that's the motive with a lot of these fake resumes, fake job seekers. ⁓ But it's so disruptive and yeah, it's just, again, you need the human touch. You need that judgment call. speaker-0: For sure. Yeah. Wow. And on the bright side, you you mentioned it, can, it's kind of improving the amount of work that people can do. Are there any tools specifically that you use or your team uses? And yeah, how, how is it improving your business? speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, LinkedIn is like our number one platform and, know, every recruiter out there, like we're on LinkedIn all day, every day. And, they've implemented a lot of AI and I will say some of it is very good. Some of it, I kind of feel empowered when I use it because I was like, you know, they will try and auto match a candidate to a job we're working on. And then you start to dig deep and you're like, I understand why the AI auto matched it because there's one key word that is lining up, but you look at it you're like, no, I'm still needed here. Like this was not a good match. So ⁓ I think we're embracing what works. ⁓ And I'll just like go to the basics. Like chat GPT has definitely changed the way our team works and just created more efficiency with even, you know, our screenings when we talk to candidates, we're able to record those and get a summary of notes versus you know, staying, staying up late or staying after work to really like record all your notes and write your candidate summary. So it's just helped us do things faster. But again, it's not foolproof and it's not just done because AI finishes the job. Like it still needs that set of eyes on it. speaker-0: sure. Yeah, no matter how much you train the model, it can get better, but it's still, mean, at most, I'd say like 90 % of the way, you know, when you can at least get a rough draft and yeah. speaker-1: And we encourage that. You know, I know there's a lot of companies that want, you know, their employees off AI or they're not allowed to use chat GPT or Claude or whatnot. But I mean, we're encouraging it and actually training our team. Like here's a great prompt and sharing it and collaborating. Like this is the best practice of how we use it today. But again, like it's going to evolve and I wouldn't ever hold someone back from experimenting because I know, I know there's a ton of value, but We're kind of just figuring it out as we go and we know our jobs. We know where there's gaps in the process and where technology can fill in those gaps and make us better employees. speaker-0: Smart. Yeah. Really good tidbits, Charlie. Thank you for all that. Yeah, I know. We're wrapping up here. I always ask guests ⁓ one practical tip that you can give business owners listening today that they could implement this week. speaker-1: I'm going to go back to something I already said, but it is just treat employees like humans. And it is so simple. Do not overthink it. ⁓ It doesn't need a big budget. It doesn't need a lot of planning, but it goes so far. And, you know, we talk to thousands of job seekers every month and some of them are very actively looking for a new job. Some of them are, you know, content, but they're open and That is really the number one reason that people join companies and leave companies is the culture, the leadership. Yes, we all work for money. I'm not like going to pretend like salary and, you know, getting a raise or getting an increase or promotion isn't part of it. But when we talk to individuals who are just not totally satisfied, it's I'm working really hard and getting no recognition and no appreciation or. ⁓ you know, I don't always agree with leadership and I'm just kind of stuck doing, you know, what they tell me I need to do, cause that's how it's always done. So I think, yeah, like just pay attention to the team and what they need and who they are. And, ⁓ yeah, transparent conversations go a long way. speaker-0: I love that, Charlie. Thank you. Yeah, great conversation today. Really, really appreciate all the insights. speaker-1: My pleasure. Thanks for having me on. speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah, and last thing is, where's the best place people can find you? I'll definitely leave it in the show notes and ⁓ yeah, they can reach out. speaker-1: Yeah, mean, LinkedIn is where it's at for me and our team. I mean, we are on LinkedIn a lot. So I put out a lot of content and talk about a lot of the things that we've discussed today. Just, you know, from a recruiter point of view, this is, this is what you need to do to secure talent, to retain talent. ⁓ but our team is also out there really advocating for job seekers. ⁓ so talking a lot about ghosting and interview tips and negotiating salaries and I think, yeah, if you follow our company page and then kind of, you know, make your way to some of our employees, you'll see some really good content regardless if you're hiring or looking for a role. We kind of talk about both sides of the desk. speaker-0: Awesome. Yeah, great, Charlotte. I'll leave that in the show notes. Thank you. Thank you for coming on today. speaker-1: Sure thing, my pleasure, Pete.