Latest / Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast) / How to patent a formula & the blueprint for building a 7 figure clean beauty brand, with Type A Founder Allison Moss

Transcript

How to patent a formula & the blueprint for building a 7 figure clean beauty brand, with Type A Founder Allison Moss · Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast)

• 0:00
  This is Alison for Female Startup Club.
• 0:12
  Hey everyone, it's Dune here, your host and hype girl. This episode is about stinky pits. I'm just kidding, but it is related to your armpits. I'm chatting with the founder of Type A, Alison Moss. By making safer, high-performance personal care, Type A are on a mission to help people lead healthier lives by making it easy to switch to better-for-you products.
• 0:36
  They're mostly known for their Hero deodorant, which is patented and unlike anything else on the market. We're covering how you actually do that, the costs involved, and how to launch into retail with your dream retail partners.
• 0:51
  Now, if you haven't heard me shout about our private network yet, oh my God, you're in for a treat. The date has been set and we are officially launching on the 12th of July. We've built what you've been asking for and we are just so excited. I'm so excited. It's going to be so cool. This is a place where we can connect and learn from each other. You'll have access to some of the most amazing women from the show for our take on modern mentorship. Yeah.
• 1:19
  You'll be able to meet women who are also building the next wave of the world's best CPG and e-commerce brands like myself. And you can use our resident experts for things like Facebook ad reviews, business coaching, and all sorts of business resources that will help you grow your business faster. So...
• 1:38
  To recap, if you are a woman and you're in the CPG slash e-commerce world, you can pop your name on our waitlist at femalestartupclub.com forward slash waitlist and head to my Instagram highlights at Doon Roisin, which is D-O-O-N-E-R-O-I-S-I-N for more details around things like the pricing, the why and the where.
• 2:00
  I feel like I need to let you know that there are only 50 spots going to be open for the founding members. So if you want to jump in, please put your name on the wait list. We've been having a really great number of people sign up and I'm just so excited. So make sure you get on the wait list. Let's get into this episode. This is Alison for Female Startup Club. Alison, hi, welcome to the Female Startup Club podcast.
• 2:25
  Hi, it's so good to be here. Thanks for being here. I'm very excited to dig in to learn all about your brand. But for those who don't know who you are, could you tell us a little bit about it and what makes it special?
• 2:38
  Absolutely. First, so I'm Alison Moss. I'm the founder and CEO of Type A Brands. And yeah, we make Type A deodorant and other body care products. What makes us special and different, and really kind of the beginning of how this all started, is that we have a proprietary technology. So we actually built a formula that's patented now, and that has a really different approach to odor and wetness protection.
• 3:05
  So for a lot of people who maybe have tried natural deodorants, but they haven't worked, it's clean and it's safe, but it's also high performance and it can really hold up to whatever life goes your way. So that's our hero product. We're starting to branch out into other products. We've been in market for about three years.
• 3:21
  That's so cool. And I'll wait till we get into it to tell you more. To tell me all the things. Can we, before we get started and go back to the beginning, can we just talk about patenting a formula? Like, what does that mean? And how do you actually patent a formula? Excellent question. I wasn't sure either. Yeah.
• 3:41
  So my background is in the beauty industry. I've worked in marketing and management for 20 years. I worked with bigger brands, L'Oreal, Lancôme, Lauder, etc. And then some smaller brands out here on the West Coast, primarily in Jersey Lake Skincare, an Aussie skincare brand, which is amazing. Shout out to Australian brands. Love them.
• 4:00
  Yeah. And, and beauty counter, all of that to say, you know, I had, I wanted to say that I really had the idea for type A inspired by what I had done in my professional life. I had brought dozens of products to market. I'd really focused on all of the details and these, you know, creating these great user experiences and high efficacy formulations. And then more and more sort of something that was natural or clean or safe.
• 4:23
  And in deodorant, I just didn't see that being done. And I had an idea for a different approach. When it comes to the patent and the idea of protecting it, that it's not common to get a patent in beauty. And I had seen that. But at the same time, I felt that we were doing something that hadn't been done before. And I started to ask around and really was leveraging my network and my connections to say like,
• 4:46
  is it a crazy idea to go after a patent? And what's the downside and what's the cost? And it really ended up being, you know, pretty low risk to go after it. And, you know, relatively speaking to starting a business, lower cost. So I said, why not? Let's go for it. And I actually worked with a legal team that I know through my network.
• 5:05
  I talked to a couple and it was really, you know, I think there's a there's a general theme here of a lot of talking, just talking to try to inform myself, make myself smarter. What don't I know? Learn, listen to people who know more than I do about a lot of things. And that continues to be a thread throughout the business. And how much does it cost to actually patent the formula and like what's the timeline to do something like that?
• 5:28
  We worked on the formula. So like the backstory on the formula is I had this idea. I was like, we can create a time release. We can mimic the time release. And that way we can have longer lasting protection and we can hold up to kind of anything you might be doing. If it's stress, sweat or if it's workouts or whatever. And also we can create a little more wetness protection by having a really strong kind of moisture absorbing sweat wicking aspect.
• 5:49
  Worked with a freelance chemist in my network, got our first submission, really was, we were probably about 70% of the way there on that first submission. And that, you know, having seen many first submissions come in for other products and other categories over the years, I was like, okay, there's something here and we can turn this into something great.
• 6:05
  And so worked over six months to refine it and then put into testing. It was probably about a nine month total process to get the formula ready. And at that point, along the way, once it kind of was in testing and it wasn't as hands-on with, you know, the tweaks and the development, I started asking around and trying to educate myself on what does it take to get a patent, the cost and all of that. We ended up filing for the patent in late 2017 and took three years to actually secure the patent. And there's a number of like,
• 6:31
  rounds where they come back with questions and you answer and you refine. So the overall cost, to answer your question, I don't have a firm final number, but the upfront cost was a couple of thousand dollars. There are subsequent costs, though. So it ended up costing more than that. But over a period of three years for an upfront just to explore and even just get your basically
• 6:53
  provisional application in to get a sense of the opportunity. And then if that's accepted, then you can file for non-provisional. And then you can kind of go through that back and forth process and see if they'll grant you something that's broad enough that it's really protectable. Like you could patent an exact formula concentrate. You could patent an exact formula.
• 7:11
  with every specific concentration. It has 10% water and 15% of this and 20% of that. But then if someone goes and tweaks it and says, I'm going to put 11% of water in, you know, they're outside of your patent. So you want it to have kind of just a broader scope
• 7:26
  And that's ultimately the net at the end of the process. We actually filed, there's some paperwork you can file that can be sort of a non-release. So it doesn't become publicly released if you don't want the patent issued. So at the end of the day, it gets whittled down to something too specific, not as protective, and then not as much value as you're looking for, then you can kind of walk away from it.
• 7:48
  Because couldn't essentially, because you can find every pattern online, right? Like you can go and search them and like understand them. So if you're posting your recipe or your formula, doesn't that then allow people to be like, okay, I'm going to copy that exactly and then tweak it by the 10% or 20% or whatever it, you know, has to change by to be not copied and then does something similar-ish, but with like a new ingredient or something. Isn't that the risk that you have?
• 8:17
  It is a bit of a risk. And I definitely thought a lot about that. So one, if they tried to copy your exact formula or anything within the ranges that you have protected. So it starts off really broad. It's like this combination of types of ingredients that could be one of several different ingredients. So if someone were to find something outside of that, then that would be outside of the patent. But it's intended, you know, in a
• 8:41
  best case scenario to be pretty broad. So this group of different ingredients and that they could be in the formula from five to 50% or some broad concentration or even five to 20%. And so- Got it, okay. By that way, you kind of, it narrows it down. So yes, they're gonna have access to your formula, but there's also these really big, like kind of broad parameters that say like,
• 9:03
  You know, if you make tweaks within this range, it's still protected. The challenge with a patent is then if someone were to copy you, you go out there and you want to say, hey, that's our protective formula. And that's a different animal. I think for us, for me, the investment in the patent was to really validate the difference that there's a lot of deodorants on the market and more have come out since we've launched
• 9:27
  And they're all very similar formulas. And we even share some of those similar ingredients and we use some different ingredients. But for us, it's the composition. That's really what makes it special. It's how we bring those ingredients together and how they work together. And that is sort of that mechanism is kind of what we wanted to protect.
• 9:46
  Got it. And so just to clarify, who do you think should be getting a patent? Like when it comes to, for example, the beauty industry, or even, you know, for me in the beverage industry, like, should you be someone who is doing something very unique and very special? Or should you be someone who's like, yeah, like I have a serum and this is what I'm doing. Like who should actually patent in your opinion?
• 10:08
  It's a great question. There were no guarantees going through the patent process. So we couldn't rely, and it was three years to get the patent. And so, you know, for the first two years in market, so 2017, we were sort of foundational. 2018, we launched. First years in market, we didn't have the patent.
• 10:25
  So I think you have to be able to communicate your points of difference, why this formula is unique, works differently, delivers a result in beauty or skincare. It's going to be about, you know, results or efficacy in some fashion, unless it's this sort of color, you know, or trend, like if it's hair or color and the trends, but yeah, communicate your point of difference and why this formula is, is unique and special. And you have to be able to do that without a patent.
• 10:49
  And I think for those, you know, who want to go after the patent, there needs to be something that really hasn't been done in the category before. Gosh, that's so interesting. Thanks for sharing. That's really cool. Congrats, by the way. I love that for you. Thank you.
• 11:05
  Thanks. Crazy. It is crazy. Gosh, I love it. I got totally ahead of myself and, you know, jumped a few steps forward. So I want to go back to the beginning. I want to go back to the initial kind of aha moments and talk about where your entrepreneurial story actually got started.
• 11:24
  Sure. So I had mentioned some of the beauty businesses, brands I've worked with in the past, and it really was, you know, having brought so many products to market over the years and spent a ton of time probably overanalyzing every detail about those product launches for other companies. I, you know, can, I don't always take that hat off at home and I probably overanalyze a lot of products I use in my life. And when it came to aluminum-free deodorant or natural deodorant, I had tried dozens. They were all disappointing, but,
• 11:52
  But I just sort of had some inspirations along a kind of a couple of different levels that, you know, led me to say, hey, there's a different way to approach this. And if we can do that, if this idea pans out and this formula really is effective and also easy to use, then and then without any real tradeoffs, then why wouldn't you make the switch to something healthier? And isn't it easier to stick with it?
• 12:15
  So with all of that, it felt like a chance to actually do something that can help people's lives, bring a great product to market that can also be one small, but one important sort of safer, healthier change that they can make. And that was really exciting for me. So yeah, I was actually on maternity leave with my second and had a bit of extra time on my hands because babies sleep a lot. When it's your second, you're like, okay, I got this. I know the blueprint.
• 12:40
  I took that time to kind of really dive in and, you know, look at the competitive landscape and say like, hey, is there a real opportunity here? I think there is. Work with a freelance chemist in my network. And then, you know, it was a year and change later that we brought Taipei to market.
• 12:57
  That's so crazy. I'm just trying to understand, you tried things on the market that you didn't think were very good and there wasn't something that really solved the problems that you were facing. But how did you get to the point of thinking, yeah, we're going to launch this not done before way of formulating a product? And I forget what you said earlier, the specific words that you said, but slower to release or something like that. How did you actually get
• 13:28
  So it was a couple of things. The thesis was, first, I had seen in other categories that you could create higher performance formula if you didn't try to force it into being highly or all natural and you embrace safe synthetic ingredients.
• 13:41
  And so when I was looking at the deodorant category, every formula was just really focused on all natural. A lot of the formulas that were taking over are starting to get momentum. We're all about ingredients you can eat. That's great. And a lot of them had started in a kitchen. And again, that could be great, but it limits efficacy.
• 13:59
  And so, you know, first I said, hey, I can think of a number of ingredients I've seen in skincare be effective in a base formula for a variety of different purposes, maybe to deliver something that doesn't stain, create a lighter weight, like not as a heavy oil of a base that could be better and more clothing friendly. You know, something that's not irritating. How can we create a really lovely texture on the skin, an aesthetic that glides on smooth so you don't have to warm the formula up on your hands and then isn't irritating and is really nurturing?
• 14:28
  Taking a lot of those insights, first setting the bar high for safety and clean and not focusing on all natural. And then just taking a lot of the references I had from other categories. And then the last piece was, let's try to mimic a time release. And that's ultimately what we ended up doing. So we created a formula that is sweat wicking. We call it our sweat activated technology. That's our sort of consumer facing language. It's actually the language in the patent too.
• 14:50
  And what it basically means is that the formula, every time it encounters moisture, it wicks that moisture away. So it keeps you feeling fresher. There's no deodorant on the market that has the combination of ingredients we do that can deliver the same level of wetness protection. And that's huge for people because then just not feeling that like on a day-to-day basis. I'm sitting at my desk and suddenly I'm like uncomfortable. That's the thing, a big piece of, you know, wanting to switch to something aluminum-free, but then really being able to stick with it. Because again, trying to reduce all the trade-offs.
• 15:20
  So the sweat wicking, the moisture absorption, that's a big piece of it. But then the other piece of it is every time the formula encounters that moisture, it releases just a little bit of the odor protecting complex. So little by little, it's releasing the odor protectors as you sweat. So it's working with your body when you sweat. It mimics the time release. Gosh, that is just bloody genius.
• 15:43
  Cool, man. Holy hell. I'm really glad it worked. It was an idea. But I, yeah, like I said, I'm just, I think I'm constantly, my mind is always turning. And again, it had been, you know, this is just, I guess, how I was sort of trained. Maybe there's a little bit of nature in there too, just always tinkering. And like, how can I make this better? But also...
• 16:04
  a lot of observing and saying like, what do I see? What's working? What's working elsewhere? What kind of work? And we apply it. And yeah, there's a lot of professional training that doesn't go to sleep at night and somehow got applied to deodorant. Yeah, that's really cool. And it's really reflected in the like gazillion five-star reviews on your website of people saying those kinds of things, you know, that they're just never getting the problems that they had before. So, wow. Kudos to you. That's really cool.
• 16:32
  How much capital did you need to get started and bring the brand to life? And how did you finance it in the beginning?
• 16:39
  So my husband and I bootstrapped this until post-launch. And then we started to raise our friends and family. And then that sort of turned, we extended that into a seed round in 2019. And I've actually extended it since then. So I've learned over time, this has definitely been an acquired new skill, fundraising. But I'm grateful for it. And again, it was a lot of, you know, my husband's actually in finance. And so he doesn't do this exactly. But I have some, it's a good, between some of my B-School friends and people I just know, again, in my network and having...
• 17:08
  Dan around, I was able to ask a lot of questions so I could, you know, get the guidance I needed. But yeah, we bootstrapped and, you know, upfront just to get the product to market really wasn't that expensive. You know, there was a little bit of investment in legal. There was a little bit of investment in the formula working with the chemist, but, you know, each sort of material investment was in the few thousand dollar ring. Right.
• 17:34
  I'm also in various places and in work, in work lives especially, I've had to learn to be pretty scrappy with budgets, nothing like what you do with a startup. But I just had that mentality from the beginning. There are sort of two approaches. You can go and raise a lot of money and you can do it on a bigger scale, more professionally. There's nothing wrong with that, but that just wasn't my natural inclination. And I feel like the pressure that that puts on the business to succeed is a lot. And I wasn't comfortable with that. So my comfort level was,
• 18:03
  okay, let's do this scrappy, invest little by little. My husband was on board from day one. I said, hey, I have this idea. You're going to think I'm crazy. And he's an entrepreneur at heart, even though he's a finance guy and, you know, day job. And he was like, this is amazing. You should do this. And he's been, you know, strategic sounding board and an advisor and all of the things ever since. But having that partnership has been critical. And then of course, to say like, hey, we're going to put money in. I'd say he was actually more aggressive with
• 18:31
  wanting to, you know, with, with being open to putting money in than I was, I was more like really wanting to be so metered and careful, but ultimately it got to the point, how much did we put in pre-launch was less than 40 grand over a year and a half. And, and I'm blanking on the exact number, but you know, somewhere between 20 and 40 grand, which is a lot of money. Don't get me wrong. You know, come, we had a fund for a new house and went to do it our business instead.
• 18:59
  But relatively speaking, you know, there are brands that raise $15 million pre-seed to start. So I think there's just like, again, there's a lot of different approaches and it's what your comfort level is. But then also, I think there is the need to understand sort of the expectations that can come with the capital. Something I've learned over time, just capital raising.
• 19:22
  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, then you have other people to answer to and you need to do things a certain way and you need to sell. Yeah, you say like, hey, we're going to do this thing. We're going to do this thing and you give us the money. We're going to do the thing. And then nothing ever works according to plan, which...
• 19:40
  It's also somewhat understood, but then what does plan B and C and D look like? And what is that use of cap? How are you pivoting? And maybe not getting stuck on plan A, but also making sure that you're making the smartest use of all the capital. So yeah, it's an interesting balance. Once we launched, it was clear that we were going to need to be investing at a higher level. So we were putting more money into the business after that initial $40,000. And that's when we said, hey, we're going to raise the C ground.
• 20:08
  We were advertising, we were getting some PR, we were bringing in some consultants to support. We weren't, we didn't have any full-time employees yet. My partner in crime, Kate, who's now our CMO, was helping me part-time. She's an old colleague of mine from L'Oreal. But we were on a, you know, sort of a good growth trajectory. It was still early days and it wasn't to the moon, but we saw the potential. We saw the product market fit and we wanted to lean into it. And so then that's when we started the friends and family round. Yeah. So you've proven out the concept and then you're like, okay, how do we move faster? Yeah.
• 20:39
  Yeah, exactly. Or like, yeah, and this was probably my like personality and a little bit impatient, but I was like, okay, proven concept. Like, how do we take it to the next level? Let's get it done. Let's go. Yeah, let's go. Let's do it. So that was kind of how that happened. That was all kind of in year one in 2018.
• 20:59
  I read that you launched into Credo Beauty. And I'm interested to know how far in advance you needed to start working on that partnership and what that actually looks like. How do you land a dream retailer before you even launch? I will say, one of the things that when I said, hey, I have this idea of this product, I'm going to work on it and bring it to market. For me as an entrepreneur, and I think for everybody, it's different. The kind of cumulative experience that I had had professionally gave me a lot of confidence.
• 21:28
  And so I knew there were things that I felt really comfortable saying, Hey, I could at the very least get us off the ground when it comes to some, you know, running in e-com or getting that up and running or some digital media or some, some of the other things I had just done before my life, the product marketing piece. And then I also felt really confident in my network and just knowing who I was going to call already to validate, to give me advice. And I've.
• 21:53
  been so blown away by, you know, how supportive everybody has been. I think, you know, I've just worked with some really amazing people over many years. And I think there's just so much support that you have out there from your colleagues, from your network that you can really leverage. So that from the beginning was a mindset. One of the early people that I called was a former coworker. She was actually on the founding team at Beauty Counter and her whole career is about health, safety, formula, integrity,
• 22:21
  sustainability, all of the things that I wanted to really build into this. And, you know, this was meant to be a healthier, safer, no sacrifice alternative. Right. So I called Mia, Mia Davis, and she is, she started as a consultant and is now a brand advisor for us. She also is now at Credo Beauty. So she was able to facilitate an introduction to the buyer right before launch. Fun story. She was like, Hey, I think you should talk to Credo. They are setting the
• 22:46
  They're doing things just top of the game. They're an amazing partner. Would be great for you to, you know, get in early with them if they like the product. And I was like, I don't know. We're very lean. It's just me. I've got a lot on my plate. And I actually was worried that I was taking on too much complexity. One of my other approaches was just really streamlined in the beginning.
• 23:06
  One scented, one unscented version of the deodorant, no other products. And I'm not sure, like, looking back, is that right? Is that wrong? But, you know, reducing complexity was helpful in a number of ways. And so only having one key channel to start, which was D2C, was also. All of that said, of course, I took the meeting with Credo. The buyer loved the product. And we decided to launch with that. So we launched on our site. And then a few weeks later, we launched at Credo.
• 23:30
  And it was one of the best decisions we made just to have the validity out of the gate from someone who's known for clean and known for curating brands and formulas that are exceptional. It really helped. It helped with PR. It helped with awareness. And also, they're just amazing people and we adore them. And we're still, they're still great partners of ours now. So it's all been amazing. That's so nice. I'm sure they're going to love to hear that.
• 23:58
  For anyone who's kind of building a brand with that same idea in mind of like, we're going to launch into a great retailer. How long in advance do you need to be having those conversations? Like what's the timeline?
• 24:09
  Excellent question. So retail timelines can be quite long. And this is, you know, Kate and I leaned a lot on, you know, experiences at L'Oreal and she's worked in other CPG industries before she spent some time in toy. So, you know, it depends on what channel you're going for. So if you're talking to an retail partner, it's a shorter lead time. They can really cut into products at any point. It's
• 24:29
  If you're talking to a retail partner, it depends on the channel, but typically most food, drug, mass, natural, sort of like the larger chains, they have regularly sort of annual or biannual resets and times when they bring new products in. And so you're going to want to talk to them about a year in advance. Wow. So if you were looking, you know, we're having conversations, we have been, and we'll continue to be having conversations for 2022 retail expansion now.
• 24:55
  And some retailers have already made their decision. Some are making them. Some will continue. The same goes prestige, but the smaller the retailer, the more flexible they are. With Credo at the time, I don't believe they still kind of adhere to a very rigid reset schedule. They own their stores and their store formats are smaller and they have more flexibility. Now they probably have schedules in there, but it's not the, my guess is it's not as regimented as like a Target or Whole Foods. Yeah.
• 25:24
  Got it. But if you're having to have these conversations a year in advance, does that mean your product is a hundred percent finished or is it kind of like they're buying into the idea and it's like almost finished and like the packaging hasn't been done? Because where I'm getting confused is like, if it's a whole year before launch, but the product is already finished and like maybe you'll have access to, you know, your first order, say three months later or six months later, but then you're wanting to launch, which is a year later. How does that work?
• 25:55
  Right. Or like if you have all the products ready to go and it's a year later, like when you're sitting on it for a year, that would be tough. It really depends on the retail channel and the retailer specifically. So in the example of Credo, you know, we talked to them two months before we launched, they love the product or maybe a few months before we launched. And they don't have these really strict long lead retail schedules. If you wanted to talk to a Whole Foods as a launch partner or, you know, or Target or CVS or another really
• 26:22
  kind of larger scale food, drug, mass channel partner. Those are very kind of regimented. And also truth be told, they're going to want to see some in-market traction. So you're probably not having those conversations precede. There are, I know of brands who have launched first with a partner like that. And so they had to, yes, pitch the idea. But I think that's a situation where you're also actually going to want to be well-capitalized going into it.
• 26:48
  So you're going to have raised a pre-seed round. You're going to be launching sort of, you know, it's a totally different launch plan. Retail is amazing for building awareness. You get that billboard effect on shelf. You know, you don't have to drive the traffic necessarily, but you have to sell through and you have to build brand awareness outside of the retailer to help deliver that sales velocity. And then really importantly, you have to have a good
• 27:11
  system of calendar of trade promotions. Doesn't always have to be a discount, but involvement in the, whatever the retail, however the retailer engages their shopper to make sure your product's standing out on shelf. So, you know, different channels will require different things and, but all of it, there's a lot of investment and then the pay cycles are tough. Like they're going to pay you, you know, you're going to send them products and then they're going to pay you, you know, a few months later. And so you really need to be capitalized for that if that's your launch plan.
• 27:40
  Yeah, that's really interesting. And I hadn't thought of it like that before. Can we talk about the D2C side of the business around when you launched? Obviously, in your case, you had a really innovative product. So the product would for sure speak for itself. I imagine word of mouth was really key in building that awareness as well. You launched with a great retailer, but how else were you getting the word out? And what did you find was really driving that initial
• 28:11
  So when we first launched, we had a couple of things in play. So we had a starter email list. Looking back, full disclosure, we would have approached that and been much more aggressive with it. We had a few hundred people on a starter email list who...
• 28:26
  through our connections and sort of had seeded it lightly, there was an opportunity to start off with a, you know, sort of a bigger bang and then, you know, really start that word of mouth going with a larger list. And looking back would have invested a little bit pre-launch to a little bit of time and not that much money to build that out bigger. But that did get us off to a strong start. And then we also launched, we started shipping or gifting influencers organically. And that really kind of,
• 28:55
  just took off and we got a lot of influencer response really quickly. And then that really lasted. We were, for the first year and a half, we were reaching out to influencers, offering products. We were doing it all organic, unpaid, and, you know, really getting a good return rate and a good response rate.
• 29:13
  And it was all micro-influencer level. So, you know, it wasn't the ROI of one individual influencer. It was sort of the effect of having, you know, a constant chatter of the product happening, probably hitting, you know, the same demo and some of the same people over and over again.
• 29:29
  from different places. So those two things worked really well. We turned on our digital, really didn't get going until 2019. And then we did a lot of PR and it was like very scrappy in the beginning. It was me and Kate going to New York, getting appointments with editors who would meet with us through connections we had, whatever way we could. And we ended up getting quite a few conversations going. And then ultimately we brought in a freelance publicist and then continued those conversations. We got a lot of PR right out of the gate.
• 29:56
  So it was influencers, PR, and it was, I guess, email marketing in a very nascent way. And that was how we got off the ground. And I would say Credo contributed. The exposure we got at Credo was really meaningful and, you know, was another layer of PR and another layer of visibility of trial. So that was really helpful as well. And then later in the year, we actually got picked up by Goop and featured in Goop.
• 30:17
  And then that, you know, was again, sort of a PR retail hybrid that furthered. So that was the launch. That was the launch strategy and what kind of worked in the early days.
• 30:27
  Yeah, that's amazing. And I think, you know what I'm wondering is, do you think if you launched the brand today, I know you said you would work on building a bigger email list and that kind of thing, but do you think the same strategy would have worked when it came to things like influencer marketing? Like 2018, even though it's only a few short years ago, it really was a different landscape compared to today where things are oversaturated. Everyone's an influencer, yada, yada, yada.
• 30:54
  Yes, we still would have focused on influencer. You can call it any number of things. What we were doing was, you know, at the lower level of micro or nano influencer and really just trying to create buzz and chatter about the product. And, you know, if you think about like marketing, the very, very basic marketing equation is like reach times frequency.
• 31:14
  And so, you know, we need to reach our audience multiple times, right? And it's a very cost-effective way to do it. Over time, I think the landscape has changed. I agree. It's gotten crowded. There's a lot of chatter. And it's become more pay-to-play. But for a new brand...
• 31:30
  There's a lot of, you can leverage that newness. And we were advised that at the time, you know, by many people, influencer agencies were like, we don't want your business yet. You can still milk the unpaid, you know, smaller scale, milk it until you can. And I think, you know, we've, and landscape having changed, I think a new brand today can absolutely still do it.
• 31:53
  And should. And we still do a mix of both unpaid and paid. But we're really starting to come back to favoring, you know, the paid influencer landscape is really tough. And, you know, certain categories tend to benefit, you know, we think about
• 32:08
  in beauty, makeup and hair, where you can sell one eyeshadow palette and then you can do 10 different looks. And so the influencer can come back and really engage your audience many times about the same product. And you can't do that. There's only so much you can say about deodorant. You can like say, hey, it worked on my workout. Oh, now it worked when I like met up at the park with my stroller buddies. You know, our core demo is like a 25 to 45 year old woman, some leans mom. So...
• 32:31
  You know, we lean into kind of the themes that work. There was a lot of testing and finding, you know, sort of food influencers. We thought, oh, well, those who are into maybe organic food and healthier eating might be, you know, also thinking about what they put on their body. They do, but they're not necessarily looking for the influencer who's giving them a recipe idea to tell them about deodorant. So that didn't work as hard for us as, you know, lifestyle influencers, mommy bloggers and the mom crew, and then, you know, beauty influencers and skin influencers.
• 33:00
  So you got to find sort of the niche of the types of influencers that maybe seem to resonate more.
• 33:06
  I absolutely would say invest time in it because it's also relatively low budget. And that chatter is never going to be a bad thing. It also, as we entered 2019, we had an ad unit that really took off on Facebook. And that was when we started to really explode in scale. And then we went and raised a seed round, sort of turned our friends and family to a seed round. And there was definitely an interplay between influencer and digital media. And they amplify each other.
• 33:34
  The challenge is you have to invest. So, you know, digital media, that landscape has also changed dramatically. And what we got in 2019 is hard, possible to replicate now. But I do believe that they still reinforce each other. Like all of the media, when done right, you know, there's multiple touch points. It's more frequency. So you're reaching that audience more times. So they, especially if you're kind of got the overlap of the right influencer, you know, group of influencers that meet your, that match your demo, and then you're targeting them properly on, on digital.
• 34:04
  It can all really work together and help bring some efficiency. And when you're thinking about today, what's working for you really well now? And what are the things that you're doing to kind of, you know, find new audiences and find new people that are interested in your brand?
• 34:20
  So what's working for us now is an extension, an evolution of what worked in the early days. It's sampling. And we know when you try the product, you love it. You know, Estee Lauder more or less invented beauty sampling for, and it works for a reason. So thank you, Mrs. and Mrs. Lauder. But no, it really is effective. So, you know, how can you get exposure through trial size, through full size,
• 34:44
  You be judicious about full size and really think about, you know, are you sampling to, you know, how repeatable is your product or how replaceable is it? Some of the boxes can be really tempting, but when you're putting a full size in a subscription box and then every month that customer gets the same product from a different brand, are they going to be loyal enough to your point of difference? Is it going to stand out enough that they're going to repurchase? And repurchase rates and conversion rates are low.
• 35:10
  So it takes quite, you kind of have to really cast the net wide in any activity, even with the standout product. But sampling's big. We still do a lot of influencer and are actually kind of coming back to our roots to say, you know, how can we re-engage those micro and nano influencers in a bigger way? And it is just a numbers game. In the beginning, in 2019, when we were like,
• 35:30
  scaling, you know, in a very, very fast, we were mailing, I want to say we're reaching out to 200 influencers, we'd hear back from about 100, this is on a monthly basis, and then about 50 would take the product or 100 would call for samples, and then 50 would actually post. And so, you know, you're starting at 200. And, and I don't know, you know, that equation has kind of fallen off a little bit, we're seeing less of a return. But I think that's a combination of,
• 35:56
  the competitive nature of our category, the influencer landscape may be becoming a little bit more crowded and maybe a little, um, like the influencers trying to figure out how to monetize and less, um, adoption, like less willingness, but also every influencer knows that they need to have some unpaid, you know, in the mix. And so, you know, it doesn't go away. And as a new brand, you can curry a lot of favor. Yeah, that's so true.
• 36:23
  Because I think as well, like influencers do need to have new and unique content and they do need to be trying new things to see whether they actually like it and whether they actually want to talk about it without it being the paid opportunity, which of course people are like, oh, well, you just got paid to say it. They're only authentic if they can be like, hey, I discovered this or, you know, this is not paid and be very, yeah, a hundred percent. The other thing that works for us, I think it works for us because this is a good, this is the right fit for our category is retail expansion and retail exposure.
• 36:52
  And it really does have a billboard effect. And Omnichannel presents another unique set of challenges because you're not controlling the consumer experience like you do on D2C. You have to accept that there are going to be people who shop on your site that are going to repurchase on other channels. But then you're also going to get the benefit of people who purchase initially from other channels. And they come back to your site because you have the full assortment of scents or other products or they get engaged with the brand. You can bring them in other ways or come to Amazon.
• 37:22
  But retail expansion has been big. 89% of U.S. adults are still buying deodorant at retail. And so for us as a category, it's important for us to accept how omni-channel kind of functions because it's really what we need to be meeting our customer where they're shopping and be there at the point of purchase when they're thinking about making a switch. We might capture you online, but a lot of times it's going to be in store to say, hey, there's something in between natural and antiperspirant that works really well and is really safe.
• 37:48
  And there's a lot of meaning in them where they shop and especially in this category. And you're everywhere now, right? I think I read you're in 1500 Target stores. You're in all the places everywhere. It's amazing. Thank you. Yeah. So we did do a test with Target. Right now we're focused on, we just launched in Whole Foods in California in the Southwest.
• 38:09
  And that has been super exciting for us because it's such a fit. And I give all of my money to Whole Foods. So I'm like, now when I'm there, I can see Taipei. It's amazing. And we also just launched nationally with Bed Bath & Beyond. And so that was really exciting. And then we had a couple, this year, we've had a ton of retail growth in the last nine months. We've added 1,400 doors.
• 38:32
  We also added a couple of really key retail partners. And so in earlier this year, we launched in Thrive Market, which was incredible. We just, you know, so much that makes sense there. And then we launched on Costco.com. And that has been just, you know, really explosive. We've been really excited. It's been an incredible surprise. It just shows that the customer is ready. They're looking for aluminum free, but they're looking for performance. And it continues to be a great fit. So it's great to have these partners and there's a lot of room to grow with them as well.
• 39:03
  That's so cool. What's the goal? What's the big vision goal for you right now? So many goals. We're raising capital right now. So my very, very near term goal is to complete the round. We, you know, coming back to fundraising, that has been such an interesting journey. And, you know,
• 39:21
  understanding and having partners and expectations and going into capital, knowing capital raising, knowing that, you know, really there's going to be an exit. Right. We actually just, it was pretty exciting earlier this year. We welcomed a celebrity investor, Sophia Bush, actually haven't mentioned this publicly yet. So you're,
• 39:39
  You're the first to know. Exciting. Congrats. Thank you. Yeah, she is. She's so passionate about, you know, clean choices, but also making them accessible. Really everything we stand for. When we were chatting with her, she was like, I love the product. But, you know, actually what first caught my eye is that you're a B-plot and that you are focused on, you know, you're mission driven, but you're really focused on doing good through the business and thinking about, you know, consumers and all the stakeholders and, you
• 40:05
  I love that she knew what it meant. And it's really, you know, it's been really exciting. Her manager, Jason Weinberg, also came in. So we have two incredible additions to our cap table and our investor base. And then also, you know, Sophia is going to be, of course, helping us spread the word as she does, which is wonderful. But, you know, our investors are looking, you know, there's an open conversation about where we want to take this business and we want to fulfill our goal and our mission of helping people.
• 40:34
  as many people as possible, the mainstream consumer, find a natural deodorant, aluminum-free deodorant that isn't a trade-off and stick with it. And so we want to take that pretty far, but eventually we will, you know, we'll look at partners who can help us take that to the next level that we just can't do.
• 40:52
  no matter how many resources, how much capital we raise, it becomes, it makes sense to be able to really maximize the opportunity for like a leading personal care brand, which is already what we're on track to do, to be a leader in clean personal care, to stand for, you know, our brand. We just did a brand survey and what came back was great. It reinforced kind of what we knew, but it was great to hear it. And people were saying, yeah, well, I believe that type A is going to deliver on its promises. Yeah.
• 41:18
  If you're called type A, you're going to deliver. And so it was about safety and trust and reliability and efficacy and all the things that are important to us. And so, yeah, we're going to take the type A brand. We're going to become the leading clean personal care brand and we'll take it to a point. And then there'll be a partner who will help, you know, really take it to the next level. Gosh, how exciting. That all sounds absolutely amazing. Love that for you. It does. We still need to make a lot of that happen.
• 41:46
  We're on our way. We're on our way. You'll get there. I'm excited to cheerlead you on. Oh, thank you. What advice do you have for women who are on the entrepreneurial path, but they're earlier on in the journey than you are?
• 42:00
  you know, so many different pieces of advice. I think, you know, if you're earlier on, the one thing that I really wish I could go back in time and, you know, sort of focus on more strategically, practically, dive deeper on was, this is going to sound really nerdy and boring and brainy, but our financials, our P&L, and like just a more detailed approach to, you know, to being...
• 42:29
  to tracking our results and tracking, you know, our full financial model against actuals and tracking our cash really closely and really understanding we, and it's not that I think we did a poor job of it, but last year in 2020, we were forced to get so much more fundamental than we had been.
• 42:50
  And it was an incredible learning. And it's really, you know, it's made us stronger as a business going forward. So while we were getting more efficient and we were learning and we were getting, you know, more efficient with every dollar that was spent and where it was going and how it was used, and that would have happened anyway. I think we could, you know, there's just, they're, you know, doing it even better will get you a better result. And the more positive cash flow you have coming in.
• 43:14
  the more you can do to grow the business. So, you know, having a handle on really understanding your financial fundamentals, and we actually implemented in early 2020, and it was a saving grace and has been ever since. With our bookkeeping partner, we do a 13-week cash management meeting every week. So we look ahead 13 weeks and say, how much cash do we have on hand? What are expenses coming up? What are, you know, cash inflows? And it gives me a much firmer handle on, you know, when you get into retail,
• 43:42
  you know, you got to kind of chase down your payments. You know, the payment cycles are long and often you kind of have to go after the dollars. Invoices get missed. So, you know, really understanding, you know, what we're getting paid out. Oh, this promotion on Amazon that I budgeted X for, actually it over-delivered, great, but this is what that looks like to the bottom line. And it doesn't mean we shouldn't have done it, but just know that that happened and then understand that how that impacts our cash position.
• 44:10
  So I'll stop with the numbers, but... No, but I think it's really important. I think it's really important, especially if you're a creative entrepreneur who's maybe not on top of the numbers and not on top of all the actual costs to come up with your COGS or your cost of goods sold. If you're missing things, then you're not really understanding where you become profitable. Yeah. I mean, there's a great example of this. Last night, I'm digging into our cost of goods sold and as I'm actualizing our financial model and I'm like...
• 44:40
  This doesn't look right. They're higher. They're higher than I know they are. I know I pay the bills. I know how much we paid for it. And yet it's showing me on paper that it's 5% higher. It was the cost of the secondary packaging that we ship. So for some of our packs, we have like a branded pouch and a sticker. And we sort of have a nice branded experience.
• 45:01
  which isn't right or wrong, but that's where it's hitting on the budget. And so, you know, it's one of those things that you sort of buy like 10,000 stickers and they'll last me a while and I'm not going to think about them, but how do they actually on like an individual unit sold or order item basis contribute? It's just something to be mindful of and then think about, okay, is that how much we want to be spending on that experience? Maybe it's not enough, maybe it's too much. So, and I think there's like, it was intimidating in the, like, I think-
• 45:30
  It's a learning process and you get sharper as you go, but find a good partner, find a good bookkeeper who can implement some of these, you know, and then just stick with it and meet every month, every week and sit in the meetings and you'll learn to ask different questions and you'll sort of just get a better feel. So it can happen over time. It doesn't mean you need to suddenly become a financial expert overnight. And I still would not call myself a financial expert, but I surround myself with some people who I would call that.
• 45:57
  Totally. Thank you for that advice. That's really great advice. So at the end of every episode, we ask a series of six quick questions to every woman on the show, some of which we might have covered, some of which we might haven't, but we ask them nonetheless. So question number one is, what's your why? Why do you do what you do?
• 46:15
  It's the mission. I love the idea of starting my own business and building a brand and knew it was going to be a lot of hard work. But at the end of the day, what was most exciting was that, you know, through this business, I can make an impact on people's lives. And it's a small impact. I totally get that. Deuteronomy isn't changing the world, but it is one healthier choice. And what we put on our body contributes to our health. So yeah, that's my why. I love that.
• 46:41
  Question number two is what do you think has been the number one marketing moment that made the business pop? It was that Facebook video that I mentioned in early 2019. We had one video ad that took off and it was efficient. It had a low CPA. We were able to scale it and really ride that. And that brought a ton of trial and awareness for us. That's crazy. What was your ROAS return on ad spend for anyone listening? Yeah.
• 47:07
  Do you remember? You know, our ROAS, so we're a low price product. One of our challenges on D2C, retail makes sense because that's what people are shopping for deodorant. It actually offers us the best margins though, because of our price point at $10 to $12 for deodorant. And, you know, even we build the AOV up, it doesn't leave a lot of room for CAC. So it's not really the most impressive ROAS. It was like at best a two, but often a little less than that.
• 47:30
  Yeah, got it. That makes sense, actually, now that I think about it. Silly question from me. Question number three is, where do you hang out to get smarter? What are you reading or listening to or subscribing to that others would benefit from knowing about?
• 47:46
  So there is actually a subscription that I really like. It's called Retail Brew. And I just find it to be informative and a little snarky, which is always entertaining for me. But if I'm being really honest, I read so many newsletters and often it's very high level. It can be quite redundant. I get the richest information from conversations. So, you know, it's a lot of talking, a lot of time, but both, you know, it's
• 48:12
  through the fundraising process, I'm meeting so many really smart people who are seeing so many companies that have been through this or going through this in our category and different categories. And outside of fundraising, just talking to my advisors, seeking out new advisors, just the sort of evolution, being part of founders clubs or groups, or especially females founder circles, and just talking and listening is where I think I get the best advice.
• 48:36
  I mean, I love that answer because it gives me a chance to plug our private network that we're about to launch on the 12th of July. And so everyone who's building e-commerce D2C brands should absolutely join us as a founding member and be part of our community and network where they can access mentors and people like you, which is super exciting. So I mean, I love that answer. If you'll have me, I'd love to be there. Yes. Oh, my God. You're in. Definitely. We'd love to have you there. That would be amazing.
• 49:05
  Question number four is how do you win the day? What are your AM and PM rituals that keep you feeling happy and successful and motivated?
• 49:13
  I wish this were a ritual and I want to do a better job of it. But yoga is sort of an AM ritual that when I get to it, clears my mind in such a great way. And really just, it is mindful. It is meditation. It's my, my moving meditation. My other win the day that I do every day is, you know, before I go to bed, I want to, it's so hard to have things hanging over your head and you always do. It's unfinished. It is never done. And so I make lists.
• 49:39
  lots of lists, but I try to have a short list of three things that need to get done that day. And so when I go to bed at night, if I've done those three things, I can feel really good that, you know, I've accomplished what I need to accomplish and not sort of worry about all the things hanging over my head that didn't get done. Yeah, I love that. It's so, it's so critical to do those kinds of things because it can get really overwhelming. Question number five, if you were given a thousand dollars of no strings attached grant money, where would you
• 50:11
  Ooh, I would think long and hard about where I put that money and want to maximize the ROI. And so it would be like moments in time. It is not static having a startup. Everything is constantly moving. And what might be efficient, like I have three key channels, D2C, Amazon, retail. So I would think about it from that perspective. And I would say, where are we going to invest this for the best return?
• 50:33
  And if you ask me, you know, today, it might be Amazon. And if you ask me tomorrow, it might be Whole Foods. And if you ask me, you know, Thursday, Friday, it might be on, you know, a sampling initiative. So any of the number of things we said before. But I think I feel it's more important than ever to really be thoughtful about where you spend your dollars and to, like, think about saving in a way.
• 50:59
  you know, we're not really saving. We're still, we're still a startup. We're still, we're not profitable yet, but it becomes even more important to like be very careful with cash management. Yeah. I love that answer. That's great. And question number six, last question is how do you deal with failure? What's your plan when, or what's your approach when things don't go to plan?
• 51:18
  I take a very deep breath and I, you know, failure is just a lesson. And ultimately what I do is I try to, I try to figure out what the lesson is. And maybe in part, because it makes me feel better knowing that I've gotten something out of it. So it's not a fail. It's just an opportunity to take something out of that situation. It is fail. But it's also, you know, something that I can actually benefit from going forward. And that like makes it.
• 51:47
  A lot easier, I think, to process and deal with and handle. And if it's really crappy, I also just cry. And then I look at what I can learn from it. But, you know, I try my very best to be open to the learnings because there have been countless times where someone says like,
• 52:08
  Hey, unsolicited advice. This is less of a failure situation, but more of just, you know, you get approached with so many different things. You have failures, you have lessons learned, you have people sharing unsolicited advice. And often, you know, your first reaction can kind of be very defensive and our mind can be and be like,
• 52:26
  Okay, I got this. But I really force myself to listen to everything because there's often something and then filter. So many times I'm like, yep, nothing there. But then many times, more times than I and that I'm always surprised about. Hey, actually, that's really interesting perspective that I hadn't thought of.
• 52:45
  Yeah, I love that. That's really cool. The unsolicited advice. Lol. Alison, this was so great. I have learned so much from you and I've absolutely loved chatting. I can't wait to see you in the network and I'm going to be cheering you on from the sidelines. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. And I will be looking out for your brand, your endeavor when you're ready to share. I can't wait to see.
• 53:14
  Thank you so much.
• 53:20
  Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
• 53:44
  And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
• 54:07
  As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that. Thank you.
• 54:23
  Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
• 54:48
  And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
• 55:10
  As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that.