Latest / Future Christian / Reaching Gen Z: Mike Orr on Belonging, Doubt, and the Future of Faith

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Reaching Gen Z: Mike Orr on Belonging, Doubt, and the Future of Faith · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:12
church in the 21st century. At the Future
0:15
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
0:19
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:21
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
0:24
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
0:28
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
0:30
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
0:34
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
0:37
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
0:39
little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with Mike
0:50
Orr. Mike has been a youth worker since the late
0:54
1990s, serving churches in Pennsylvania,
0:57
Connecticut, California and Colorado. He earned
1:00
his M. Um. Div. From Fuller Theological Seminary
1:03
in Pasadena, California. For over 10 years, he has
1:07
been the director of student ministries at
1:10
Broomfield United Methodist Church, located in the
1:13
northern suburbs of Denver. He lives with his wife
1:16
and three dogs in Denver and he has written zero
1:20
books. A reminder, before we start today's
1:23
conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to
1:26
the podcast, leave a review and share Future
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Christian with a friend. Share. Connect with
1:30
Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram.
1:34
Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro
1:36
uh.com with comments, questions or ideas for
1:42
future episodes. We appreciate your voice in how
1:45
we faithfully discern the future of the church.
1:57
>> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
1:59
This is Loren Richmond Jr. And I'm recording live
2:03
and in person at Broomfield United Methodist
2:06
Church with Mike Orr. Hello. Welcome to the show.
2:10
>> Mike Orr: Loren, how's it going, man?
2:11
>> Loren: Yeah, it's great, Great to be here. We're
2:14
recording. What, in the basement as you do. Yeah,
2:17
as you do. This is like where all the good
2:19
podcasts happen though, is in some church
2:22
basement, I think.
2:23
>> Mike Orr: Yeah. Uh, AA meetings, youth group and podcasts.
2:27
>> Loren: Right, right. So my favorite episodes are always
2:33
in person episodes. So I'm hoping we can have a
2:34
good conversation today.
2:36
But before we get started, like anything else, you
2:38
want our listeners to know about you.
2:40
>> Mike Orr: Oh, man, uh, inside, in a basement with computers
2:44
is not my place. Yeah, outdoors, on a bicycle,
2:47
while on skis or on a trail somewhere. It's my
2:51
place. Especially if it's with my dogs. Um, if
2:54
it's with my dogs and my wife. Double bonus, man.
2:57
Love, uh, being outside. I love, uh, leading
3:01
ministry opportunities outside as well, in the
3:03
great outdoors. And so living in Colorado, man, is
3:07
this world class. Mhm scene, man. I get to do all
3:10
sorts of really great things, uh, in the mountains
3:13
and beyond. So I love that, um, see other things
3:18
you might want to know about me. Uh, the bio, I
3:22
think will mention that I, uh, have written zero
3:25
books, but I have read many books, love reading,
3:31
love, uh, having deep discussions with people. And
3:36
I hope people aren't caught off guard when we go
3:38
unexpectedly deep. But uh, I love having those
3:41
unexpectedly deep conversations. Whether it's on a
3:44
ski lift m. Or um, at a brewery or all of a sudden
3:48
it turns to things that, um, have eternal
3:52
consequences, that are beyond just, uh, I don't
3:56
know, good bikes and good beer and good dogs.
4:00
>> Loren: I suppose we're already getting off track here,
4:02
but I was just thinking about this because we've,
4:06
uh, talked a little bit about Nandra Root and I
4:09
was thinking about an episode I had with him.
4:12
>> Mike Orr: It was a good episode.
4:13
>> Loren: Did you listen? Yeah, thanks for listening. But I
4:15
was thinking about, we were talking about this
4:18
idea of being ontologically marked, which is a big
4:22
word to sort of say, like, to think of it this way
4:27
that God marks us almost as like a safe person to
4:31
talk to.
4:32
>> Mike Orr: Mhm. In our very being.
4:34
>> Loren: Right, right. And I think, like I posted this on
4:38
Facebook, like Sunday at church, like in this
4:42
church on Sunday, like someone came up and started
4:46
talking to me about their family struggles. And
4:49
like, I'm not on staff here. I think they know
4:52
that I'm a chaplain. But I was also like, I was
4:55
struck by like, uh, like in the moment I couldn't
4:58
even remember her name.
4:59
>> Mike Orr: Yeah.
4:59
>> Loren: Like, I felt kind of bad.
5:01
>> Mike Orr: Happens to me all the time.
5:03
>> Loren: Yeah, sure. But so I think, like, I guess what I'm
5:07
saying is like, I think like, there's something to
5:09
that. Like, and I'm sure you've, you've noticed
5:12
that yourself. You're like, why do people keep
5:13
talking to me?
5:15
>> Mike Orr: Well, I think it's why I decided, um, on a
5:19
psychology degree in undergrad. I think it's also
5:22
why I went on to, uh, an MDIF Master of Divinity,
5:26
uh, in seminary. I think it's why youth, uh,
5:30
ministry.
5:31
>> Loren: Right.
5:31
>> Mike Orr: Has been a calling for me, is that I guess I'm one
5:35
of those people who's been that way in my whole
5:36
life, that people just are like, I can open up to
5:39
you. Sometimes that's like this brilliant, uh,
5:43
exhilarating moment. And sometimes it's.
5:46
Sometimes, and especially when I was younger, it
5:48
felt like this burden that I didn't know how to
5:50
handle. It could feel overwhelmingly. So I think,
5:55
uh, having some training now and just more
5:58
experience, being older and more mature about it
6:00
makes uh, a huge difference yeah, well, since
6:03
we've.
6:03
>> Loren: Talked a little bit around it, talk about like
6:05
your formative, your form of years, like what it
6:09
looked like to be a Christian in the past, what it
6:10
looks like today, in between.
6:12
>> Mike Orr: Yeah. So my kind, uh, of faith journey. I grew up
6:15
in the church. Uh, my dad is a now honorably
6:18
retired Presbyterian pastor.
6:20
>> Loren: Wow.
6:22
>> Mike Orr: And uh, so grew up in church. Grew up kind of in
6:24
the fishbowl of being a. Yeah.
6:26
>> Loren: Yeah.
6:27
>> Mike Orr: And uh, so I guess I had always been one as long
6:32
as I can remember, who more people know of me than
6:35
I know of them. Like they know more about me,
6:39
people know my name than people whose names I
6:41
know. Um, and so people here in this community are
6:45
very forgiving of that, which is nice. There's a
6:47
lot of grace. Uh, but growing up, I think there's
6:50
always for me an awareness of spiritual things.
6:53
Always a, a sense that, uh, Christianity and then
6:59
maybe more specifically Christian community was
7:02
very important, central to our family life and
7:06
wasn't an option for us. Yeah. Uh, uh, for good or
7:10
for ill, you know, overall I didn't end up being
7:12
one of the really rebellious pastor's kids go kind
7:16
of either way.
7:16
>> Loren: Right.
7:17
>> Mike Orr: Here I am obviously talking about, uh, Christian
7:20
themes with people who are kind of like, I, for
7:25
lack of a better term, like professional
7:26
Christians. I kind of hate that idea. But here we
7:29
are. Um, when I was very young, my parents have
7:36
stories of me, I don't know, um, being spiritual.
7:41
I don't know if that's the right word. But it was
7:44
obvious to them that I had some sort of connection
7:45
with God. But it wasn't until I was middle school
7:49
age that I made the first kind of conscious
7:52
decision. Like I made a choice and it involved
7:57
accepting God's love.
7:58
>> Loren: Mhm.
8:00
>> Mike Orr: In a way that man, I don't remember even who it
8:02
was at camp, of course.
8:03
>> Loren: Right, right, right.
8:05
>> Mike Orr: Um, I don't even remember what they said. They
8:06
just gave us an opportunity to go off on our own.
8:08
And I remember having this moment with God that
8:11
felt realer and deeper than anything I'd
8:14
experienced up to that point. Um, and it's funny,
8:18
I tell this story sometimes because for me I kind
8:20
of point to that moment. Not that I think that
8:23
everyone has like a Paul on the road to Damascus
8:25
kind of moment.
8:26
>> Loren: Right.
8:26
>> Mike Orr: Actually almost everyone doesn't have.
8:28
>> Loren: Right, right.
8:29
>> Mike Orr: Um, but if I had to point to something that would
8:32
be, I think there are lots of tiny little steps
8:34
along the way. Uh, my brother would point to a
8:36
different moment, which is, um, I'm an older
8:40
Brother. I've got one younger brother. Uh, and I
8:44
was not a very good older brother for a lot of
8:46
years. Uh, I was mean and we fought and, uh, I was
8:50
unkind. Nandra, if you're listening, I'm so sorry.
8:53
And you know this. We've. You've talked, we've
8:54
talked about this. Um, and when I was 16, another
8:58
church camp thing, um, just felt God asking me
9:03
through the keynote speaker, asking me to ask God
9:08
to restore a relationship. And for me, it was
9:10
obvious which one that had to be. It had to be my
9:12
brother because I knew it wasn't good.
9:14
>> Loren: Yeah.
9:14
>> Mike Orr: And from that mom on, apparently, I actually don't
9:17
remember the changes. Um, I think I thought that
9:19
God would change my brother to be less annoying.
9:22
>> Loren: Oh, man.
9:23
>> Mike Orr: Like, uh, that's.
9:24
>> Loren: Here's some truth right here.
9:25
>> Mike Orr: And that is not what happened at all.
9:27
>> Loren: Nope.
9:28
>> Mike Orr: Uh, God softened my heart. God, uh, changed me.
9:31
>> Loren: Yeah.
9:32
>> Mike Orr: And, uh, and that's my. What's. What my brother
9:35
would point to is that when I became a Christian.
9:37
>> Loren: Wow.
9:37
>> Mike Orr: Very interesting. Right. And, uh, it wasn't until
9:40
a year later that I was back at that same camp. I
9:43
had this moment. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm best
9:45
friends with my brother now.
9:46
>> Loren: Wow.
9:46
>> Mike Orr: Uh, fa. Constantly before that. So I've had all
9:51
these moments in my life where God has clearly
9:53
been at work that, like, the kinds of
9:55
transformation that I can't attribute to, like,
9:58
willpower.
9:59
>> Loren: Right.
9:59
>> Mike Orr: Or like hearing the right message changed me, but
10:04
only that God did something in my life. And that
10:08
continued as I started to do ministry, uh, in, in
10:13
the late 1990s, um, and work with young people
10:18
until. Until now. Yeah.
10:21
>> Loren: Yeah.
10:22
So obviously you mentioned, like, being outside is
10:24
important to you. I find it fascinating just your
10:27
comment there about your spirituality not being
10:30
like your willpower, your efforts. I mean, I think
10:33
we could have an entire conversation around that,
10:36
like how much spirituality or religiosity these
10:40
days is seen as like, self built. But what, what
10:44
are some spiritual practices for you that kind of
10:46
like, help you stay grounded, connected.
10:48
>> Mike Orr: It's good. Um, I have a kind of prayer and
10:55
movement practice. I don't want to sound too,
10:57
like, Eastern or anything.
10:59
>> Loren: Sure.
10:59
>> Mike Orr: But, uh, maybe it is kind of that. Um, for me, it
11:02
developed during the pandemic when like, as a
11:05
ministry professional just felt very lost and
11:08
overwhelmed.
11:09
>> Loren: Yeah.
11:10
>> Mike Orr: I, um, went from feeling like, uh, I really knew
11:13
what my job was and how to do it and do it.
11:17
>> Loren: Right.
11:18
>> Mike Orr: To not knowing what my job was or how to do it or
11:22
how to do it. Well, I Started feeling, rather than
11:26
like developing relationships with, uh, young
11:29
people and helping them to learn what it means to
11:32
follow Jesus. It felt like content creation and
11:37
online classroom management. And I was like, I did
11:40
not sign up for this.
11:42
>> Loren: I did not learn this in seminary.
11:44
>> Mike Orr: Not a seminary class. This has not been part of
11:47
any of my ongoing training.
11:49
>> Loren: Yeah.
11:49
>> Mike Orr: And so, uh, and I was having trouble sleeping. I
11:52
think a lot of us were.
11:53
>> Loren: Yeah.
11:53
>> Mike Orr: And so I developed kind of some, uh, some evening
11:56
routines that had to do with breath and prayer and
12:00
movement. And I have resisted for almost my whole
12:04
life. Anything that's kind of like rigid or
12:06
routine or, um, ritualistic. Uh, and I found that
12:12
these rigid routine rituals became this beautiful
12:16
life giving thing for me.
12:17
>> Loren: Yeah.
12:17
>> Mike Orr: And so I've continued with that. Um, and it feels
12:22
so intimate that I don't even talk about details.
12:25
>> Loren: Yeah.
12:25
>> Mike Orr: That is fair. So sorry, listener. Uh, uh, yeah, I
12:30
just. It feels so intimate.
12:31
>> Loren: Yeah.
12:32
>> Mike Orr: With my time with God.
12:33
>> Loren: Yeah.
12:34
>> Mike Orr: Uh, so that's one of them. Also just being out in
12:36
nature, some of those moments have been very much
12:42
just awestruck moments of God. You are so big and
12:47
so good. You've m. Made such beauty. Um, so I try
12:51
to be outside as much as possible.
12:52
>> Loren: Yeah.
12:53
>> Mike Orr: Uh, yeah. And then, you know, I guess probably
12:56
some of the other things in terms of community
12:58
that people are used to and um, whether it's Bible
13:02
reading or devotional, uh, moments, really those
13:06
other two are more primary for me now.
13:08
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. So Mike and I
13:13
sort of began this conversation informally and
13:16
then semi formally through like a training he was
13:19
leading. And then I was like, we just got to keep
13:21
talking about this because I think it's obviously
13:24
super important to the context of Christianity and
13:27
the faith right now and I think has relevance
13:35
beyond what we can probably imagine.
13:38
But when I was driving over here, I want to start
13:41
the conversation with this to start us off light.
13:44
So we're around the same age. I think we went
13:48
both. Well, you studied psychology in undergrad. I
13:52
actually trained for youth ministry in undergrad
13:55
at a Bible college. But I'm curious, when you
13:57
think back of you were probably in that circle and
14:00
sphere of like youth ministry. Right. Like, what
14:03
are some things, like, looking back, you sort of
14:05
like laugh at and be like, what were we, what were
14:09
we doing?
14:10
>> Mike Orr: Oh, um, man, the first, the easy one is like,
14:12
there are some games we used to play in youth
14:14
ministry that now have, like, in some cases have
14:17
been like either outlawed or banned.
14:18
>> Loren: Right.
14:19
>> Mike Orr: For safety issues. Like, so some of that stuff
14:21
where.
14:21
>> Loren: It'S like why do chubby bunny, bunny, Kelly bunny.
14:24
>> Mike Orr: That's a prime example, um, where it's like. No,
14:27
you. What, what, what? 24. Yeah, that was me. I
14:31
was a 24 year old who thought that was a great
14:32
idea. Yeah, you know, I was the, or the 21 year
14:34
old. Right, I know, right. We'll do this. My brain
14:38
was not fully developed. Um, so I think some of
14:41
those things, um, also I think, uh, we're talking
14:46
kind of about the 90s here. 90s and I think there
14:51
was a movement away from some things that it was
14:54
good that we moved away from, but we uh, continued
14:58
I think to be kind of emotionally coercive of our,
15:02
of our kids. Yeah, emotionally coercive in a way
15:06
that kind of drove them to make um, a, an emotion
15:11
based decision about God or Jesus. Fill in the
15:16
blank. Um, that we um, we set up scenarios where
15:22
there was a lot of either kind of guilt or fear.
15:25
And I think to be clear, this has not totally gone
15:28
away.
15:29
>> Loren: Right.
15:29
>> Mike Orr: This is definitely still a huge part of a lot of
15:31
ministries.
15:32
>> Loren: Right.
15:33
>> Mike Orr: Uh, all around me.
15:34
>> Loren: Well, this is the second part of the question
15:36
that's coming up, but keep going.
15:38
>> Mike Orr: So, um, those are some things a lot. Yeah, it's
15:40
like, oh man, why do we. So I'm sorry, I took the
15:43
light hearted thing.
15:44
>> Loren: No, because this was the question, the second half
15:46
of the question I wanted to ask you.
15:48
Like in some ways the serious question is like
15:51
when we look at, I don't want to throw stones too
15:53
much here, but we kind of look at a lot of the
15:56
megachurch or big church models that are very
16:00
emotionally quasi manipulative. Do you think? Uh,
16:04
I've had this uh, conversation, I think with
16:06
people before. Do you think in some ways it's just
16:09
youth pastors who grew up with the same kind of
16:12
training you and I had, who've kind of just taken
16:14
that to another level, another scale.
16:17
>> Mike Orr: Oh yeah, certainly. I mean what you teach other
16:19
than what you know.
16:20
>> Loren: Right, right.
16:20
>> Mike Orr: And how, uh, do you do a thing other than how
16:22
you've always done it or seen it done? Right,
16:25
definitely. Right. And without like really focused
16:27
and intentional intervention, then you just kind
16:30
of repeat the mistakes of the past and I mean, uh,
16:35
yeah. The emotional manipulation or whatever. I
16:39
hope nobody hears that. I'm saying that there's no
16:40
emotion involved.
16:41
>> Loren: Right.
16:42
>> Mike Orr: Spirituality or in religion or in faith.
16:44
>> Loren: Yes.
16:45
>> Mike Orr: Because my faith in Jesus is deeply emotional.
16:49
>> Loren: Yeah.
16:49
>> Mike Orr: Um, but I don't feel that I was coerced into it. I
16:52
don't feel like somebody manipulated me in Order
16:54
to get there. And I don't think that God is
16:57
manipulative. M. In that way. I don't think that
16:59
God coerces us at all. Um, I think God pursues us.
17:04
>> Loren: Yeah.
17:04
>> Mike Orr: And there's a difference.
17:06
>> Loren: Yeah.
17:07
>> Mike Orr: Uh, so. Yeah. I don't know if that kind of.
17:10
>> Loren: Yeah.
17:10
>> Mike Orr: Comes out the question.
17:11
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's helpful. Yeah. I
17:13
was just thinking about like it's kind of like
17:17
that guilt shame paradox. Right. Like I think
17:21
guilt is not necessarily a bad thing because guilt
17:23
like reminds me like this. I'm not living up to
17:26
the values that I, I claim to want to live up to.
17:31
But when that turns into shame then it's like well
17:34
that's, that's not helpful. And I think without
17:37
getting too into the weeds here of 90s right.
17:41
Ministry and theology or practical theology, it
17:45
was kind of shame based at least as I remember it.
17:49
>> Mike Orr: Like definitely. Yeah. And uh, I define somebody.
17:53
I didn't come up with this, can't remember where I
17:55
got it. Um, I think of guilt as feeling bad about
17:58
something that you've done. Shame as feeling bad
18:02
about who you are.
18:03
>> Loren: Right.
18:03
>> Mike Orr: And um, I think it's yeah totally appropriate to
18:07
feel bad about something you've done if it was
18:08
other thing you shouldn't have done.
18:09
>> Loren: Right.
18:10
>> Mike Orr: Like there's all sorts of things we maybe should
18:12
feel guilty about. Um, but I don't think that
18:16
shame is usually very helpful or healthy. And um,
18:21
I mean we could get off into the weeds again you
18:23
know on ah a tangent but like part of the 90s was
18:26
purity culture and uh, shaming people about their
18:29
sexuality and um, kind of the I think natural God
18:34
given impulses that we have our sexuality.
18:37
>> Loren: Right.
18:38
>> Mike Orr: And uh, since then a lot of the prime leaders in
18:42
that movement have been like I am so sorry.
18:44
>> Loren: Yeah.
18:45
>> Mike Orr: That I, I did something bad, something evil. And
18:49
um, so that is another thing that I look back on
18:53
like man we, we put rings on about what and right.
18:56
Not that I think that there isn't a healthy way or
19:00
a healthier ways to uh, approach.
19:03
>> Loren: Right.
19:04
>> Mike Orr: Uh sexuality and uh romance and relationships than
19:09
uh the way that our culture typically does it.
19:11
>> Loren: Right.
19:11
>> Mike Orr: But man uh, like going yeah. Going hard hard way
19:17
the other way like didn't work either. So finding
19:20
a way to uh, talk well about all areas of life.
19:23
>> Loren: Yeah. Super important.
19:25
So this kind of leads into or I'm going to force
19:27
us into some kind of like bringing this into like
19:31
your work presently with Gen Z or shout out to my
19:35
co host, Canadian co host Martha Tatarn like Gen
19:38
Z. And she would say, you know, up north, like,
19:43
when we think about. I mean, I think this was
19:45
something that was fascinating for me when I heard
19:49
this from you, just how different, like, the
19:52
current generations are versus, like, when we
19:55
think about classic. Uh, I feel like. Correct me
19:58
if I'm wrong, but I feel like the 90s were, like,
19:59
the heyday of youth ministry. When we think about,
20:02
was it Doug Fields and, uh, youth specialties and,
20:06
you know, what do you think is different? Yeah.
20:11
What do you think is different today? Especially
20:13
dealing with students, whatever terminology we
20:16
want to give them, versus when you think about,
20:18
like, the 90s.
20:21
>> Mike Orr: Sure. Yeah. So, um, I'll add in Gen Alpha there,
20:24
too.
20:25
>> Loren: Yeah.
20:25
>> Mike Orr: Kind of Gen Z and Gen Alpha that our ministry is
20:29
working with now. And, yeah, they see the world in
20:32
a different way than most of us did in the 90s and
20:36
the generations before. Um, you and I are kind of
20:40
right around that Gen X millennial shift. M. Uh,
20:45
so some people call us cuspers.
20:48
>> Loren: Oh, I've not heard that.
20:49
>> Mike Orr: Yeah, we're born Xenians. I don't know.
20:52
>> Loren: Yeah, Xennials. Yeah. I don't want to say what
20:54
year from. My kids are listening.
20:58
>> Mike Orr: I avoided a 279. So, uh, I am kind of right on the
21:02
edge there.
21:03
>> Loren: Yeah.
21:03
>> Mike Orr: And we. We as Gen X Gen and. And. And millennials
21:10
kind of had this focus on kind of, like, world
21:14
changing. Like, you figure out how you're gonna
21:18
change the world and you're gonna know everything
21:20
else about what you. And the generation before us,
21:24
uh, kind of baby boomers had this idea that, um,
21:29
once you know who you are and what your identity
21:31
is, um, then you'll be able to kind of figure out
21:34
all these other things. And for our Gen Z and Gen
21:38
Alpha friends, it's belonging. First, who are my
21:44
people? Where do I belong? Uh, and then the others
21:48
flow. And so we talk about these three things, uh,
21:52
kind of intertwining. Ah, all stemming from three
21:58
of the major questions that we asked during
22:00
adolescence. Um, and that is, who am I? What am I
22:05
going to do with this life I've got? And where do
22:07
I belong? So it's the identity question, the, um,
22:11
kind of autonomy or purpose question, and the
22:15
belonging question. And we answer that
22:20
differently. And it turns out, and this is. I did
22:23
not invent any of this. Um, uh, Marco, uh, Marco
22:27
Striker gets some credit here. Chap. Clark gets
22:29
some credit here. Uh, you know, fill in a bunch.
22:32
>> Loren: That I care about.
22:34
>> Mike Orr: Um, basically, those who are in older generations,
22:40
like, say, boomers and older uh, and probably
22:43
older generations, Gen xers would view 3, 2 of the
22:50
tasks of adolescence through the lens of another.
22:52
We all do this. So, um, they would view belonging
22:58
and kind of like their purpose in life, kind of
23:02
how they're going to behave in the world through
23:04
the lens of identity. Once I knew who I am, then I
23:07
know how to behave and where I belong.
23:09
>> Loren: Yeah. Okay.
23:10
>> Mike Orr: And then for kind of the middle generation in our
23:15
current context and the, uh, maybe younger Gen
23:19
Xers, older millennials, maybe even maybe most
23:23
millennials would have thought of like, well, once
23:26
I know how I'm going to change the world, once I
23:28
know how I'm going to impact this planet.
23:30
>> Loren: Yeah.
23:31
>> Mike Orr: Then I know who I am.
23:32
>> Loren: Yeah.
23:33
>> Mike Orr: And then I know the people I belong to.
23:34
>> Loren: Yeah.
23:35
>> Mike Orr: And that really resonates with, with a lot of us.
23:38
Yeah. You gotta be a world changer. You gotta know
23:40
how, like, what's your cause?
23:42
>> Loren: Yeah.
23:42
>> Mike Orr: Right. And once you know that, then you know your
23:44
feet.
23:44
>> Loren: Yeah. I feel like, I feel like you're, like you're
23:47
preaching to me right now.
23:48
>> Mike Orr: Yeah, yeah. Um, and so if you come from a boomer
23:51
mindset or uh, an older millennial or Gen X
23:55
mindset, then you can really, really miss how an
23:59
adolescent sees the world because they view it
24:02
through belonging first. And they know who their
24:05
people are, they know their friends, they know
24:08
their kind of close knit group and that tells them
24:10
who they are and like what's important in the
24:14
world and how they're going to affect the world,
24:15
like what their purpose is. And so if you try to
24:19
start with one of the others, you're talking right
24:21
past them. If you don't start with belonging. And
24:24
um, a lot of churches and a lot of religious, uh,
24:26
organizations or parachurch organizations in the
24:28
past have kind of started with this idea that,
24:32
well, you have to believe the right things at
24:35
least. Intellectual ascent.
24:36
>> Loren: Right, right.
24:37
>> Mike Orr: Certain set of dogmatic principles. And then we
24:41
expect that you will, uh, behave a certain way.
24:44
You know, don't do the bad things, do do the good
24:46
things and then you're part of the group.
24:49
>> Loren: Yeah.
24:50
>> Mike Orr: And if we, if we do it that way with this
24:52
generation, it's a completely flat message. It's,
24:55
it's like an alien language. And so in my
24:59
ministry, it's uh, belonging first. Kids, we hope,
25:03
find a place where it can be theirs. Like, these
25:06
are their people, this is their place. And we find
25:10
as they do that, that they start to kind of behave
25:14
in the ways that the group expects. And we're
25:17
actually pretty vocal about our expectations about
25:19
for each other. Um, when we hold each other to
25:22
those expectations, and we find that often, not
25:28
always, but often, kids start to believe the
25:31
things that I believe or that we believe, that we
25:35
say we believe.
25:35
>> Loren: Anyway.
25:36
>> Mike Orr: Um, and it's a different paradigm for kind of how
25:41
to do community and belonging.
25:43
>> Loren: It's a really different paradigm.
25:45
I, uh, do want to ask a question about belonging.
25:48
I was just reading this book from. I'll see if I
25:51
can get her name right. I think it's Tanya Maddox.
25:54
Tanita Maddox. Hopefully gonna have her on the pod
25:56
here soon. And she does talk about belonging.
25:59
Like, the challenge that in some sense, as she
26:04
understands it, among Gen Z, Gen Zed, Gen Alpha,
26:06
like, there's this sense of belonging means total
26:10
acceptance. We're not gonna ask you to change or
26:13
grow. Uh, how do you navigate that? Because you
26:18
certainly, like you said, you want to let young
26:20
people know this is a safe space. You're. You can
26:23
belong here. But also, like, I'm not going to let
26:25
you just, you know, be a jerk forever. Like, I'm
26:28
going to ask you to. To grow. Like, how do you
26:31
navigate that?
26:31
>> Mike Orr: Well, growth. I think that's a great word. Um, in
26:34
Wesleyan circles.
26:36
>> Loren: Yeah.
26:37
>> Mike Orr: Uh, we talk about different movements of grace,
26:40
and one of them being sanctifying grace.
26:42
>> Loren: Yeah.
26:42
>> Mike Orr: Holy way of talking about, like, getting better.
26:45
Right. Like, we don't expect that everybody's
26:49
gonna have it all together, but there is a
26:52
wholeness. W h o Wholeness that we desire for
26:58
ourselves and for each other that comes with
27:01
maturity. And so accepting where anyone is right
27:06
now, but also expecting that we're moving in a
27:10
direction toward maturity, toward wholeness. And
27:14
this. I think, uh, a lot of Bible translations get
27:17
the idea they use the word perfect.
27:19
>> Loren: Right, Right.
27:19
>> Mike Orr: So this perfection, um, we see it in a bunch of
27:22
spots. Um, and when Jesus talks about, like, be
27:25
perfect, therefore, as your Father in heaven is
27:26
perfect. The only translation that I know that I
27:29
think gets it right, um, or gets at the whole idea
27:33
is the. The ceb. The common English Bible says,
27:37
therefore, be complete in showing love in the way
27:40
that your Father is complete in showing love. This
27:43
idea that perfection isn't about flawlessness, but
27:46
about completeness.
27:48
>> Loren: Yeah.
27:48
>> Mike Orr: You've got the perfect set of something. It's not
27:50
because they're undamaged or have no little
27:52
blemishes. It's because you've got the whole
27:55
thing. And so, um, belonging doesn't have to
28:01
negate or hinder or certainly, um, like, not
28:07
expect growth and growth in maturity, spiritual
28:11
maturity, all kinds of maturity, and Wholeness and
28:16
perfection in the idea of being more complete. So,
28:21
uh, practically speaking, I think that means, uh,
28:24
being upfront about expectations, whether it's
28:27
around behavior or kind of like. Like, we.
28:30
>> Loren: Yeah.
28:31
>> Mike Orr: Ah, there are things that are totally normal when
28:33
you're a child that would be, like, ludicrous as
28:37
an adult.
28:38
>> Loren: Right.
28:39
>> Mike Orr: We don't expect you to be an adult when you're a
28:40
child.
28:40
>> Loren: Right.
28:41
>> Mike Orr: But we do want to aim in that direction. And I
28:45
think the difference sometimes is that maybe in
28:50
some circles, there are some things about a person
28:53
that we believe are maybe bad or wrong and should
28:57
be, um, expunged, should be removed somehow, um,
29:02
through the life of faith or through God's work
29:05
through the Holy Spirit. Um, and maybe it depends
29:08
on the set of those things. Like, what are those
29:11
things? Um, uh, at our church and in our
29:15
denomination, we're, uh, very affirming of LGBTQ
29:19
folks. That's not true across Christendom
29:23
Christian circles and totally, uh, understand and
29:26
recognize that. So in some Christian circles, uh,
29:31
that maturity would mean that maybe you would
29:32
leave behind a certain identity or lifestyle, as
29:35
they would maybe say. Uh, and for me, that
29:38
wouldn't be one of the things on the list.
29:39
>> Loren: Right.
29:39
>> Mike Orr: I wouldn't expect you to grow out of being gay or
29:43
grow out of those kinds of things.
29:46
>> Loren: Yeah.
29:47
>> Mike Orr: Um, so I guess it kind of also means. Yeah, it
29:50
depends on, like, what you mean by acceptance or.
29:52
>> Loren: Right.
29:52
>> Mike Orr: Um. Yeah. Refusal to accept, like, certain kinds
29:55
of destructive behaviors I think is important, and
29:58
I think that also goes to probably people's
30:00
definition of sin.
30:02
>> Loren: Yeah.
30:03
>> Mike Orr: Like, what is.
30:03
>> Loren: Yeah. Um, yeah.
30:05
>> Mike Orr: Um, and how. How. How rigidly is that defined? And
30:12
I haven't fully fleshed out my thoughts on that,
30:14
so I don't have any more to say.
30:15
>> Loren: Well, I have a subset coming out on that I'd like
30:17
you to read now. Uh, yeah. Yeah, I've been
30:20
thinking about that.
30:21
So this does lead into something that I've been
30:23
curious about. Like, just coming over here, I was
30:25
listening to a. A podcast, uh, interview podcast,
30:28
talking about, like, this quiet revival happening.
30:32
I don't know if you've heard, like, in the UK
30:34
there's. And parts of, what, Scandinavia, I guess
30:38
there's this. There's like. I guess legitimate
30:40
data that, like, baptisms are way up, especially
30:43
of young men. Like, we've seen these kind of
30:47
stories, I think, Right. In the states of, like,
30:50
young men coming back into church. I mean, I think
30:52
this was like. And this is kind of like, right
30:55
when I turned it off, they were talking about,
30:58
like, wrestling with this, like, what do you do?
31:02
Because to some extent, like, at least in the
31:04
States, it seems like young men, A, I think we
31:08
could probably agree on this, like, are, uh, kind
31:09
of in a crisis.
31:10
>> Mike Orr: Yeah, yeah.
31:12
>> Loren: And B, like, uh, there's some coming into church,
31:14
but I'm not. How do I say this gently? Like, I'm
31:18
not like, in love for m. Necessarily all their
31:20
motivations for. For why they're coming into
31:23
church. Like, it. It seems like in some contexts,
31:26
and I want to be too critical here, but, like, it
31:28
seems like in some contexts, like, the. The space
31:32
being offered to them is, like, strict kind of
31:35
like, societal, like, rules, regulations, like
31:41
traditionalism.
31:41
>> Mike Orr: Tell me what to believe.
31:42
>> Loren: Right.
31:43
>> Mike Orr: Tell me what to believe. And I will hold on to
31:46
that and I'll run with it.
31:47
>> Loren: Right. Because I'm kind of of the opinion, like, I
31:50
think. I think people, like, need some kind of,
31:53
like, scripting, but also they don't need
31:55
straitjackets. And I'm worried that what's being
31:59
presented now is almost like too much of a
32:03
straitjacket to some extent. So this is kind of a
32:07
long winded question, but what I'm trying to get
32:09
at is, like, have you wrestled with, like,
32:12
certainly you come across a wide variety of kids
32:15
here in your ministry here. More broadly speaking,
32:18
like, how do you wrestle with, like, you want to
32:20
be open and trust that the spirit can move in
32:24
people? Where I was also being like. I mean, is
32:29
that just going back to what you said, like,
32:31
expectations up front?
32:35
>> Mike Orr: Gosh.
32:35
>> Loren: Like, uh, like a young man comes to you and he's
32:37
like, let's be frank, he's wearing a MAGA hat and
32:41
he's like, hey, uh, you know, Charlie Kirk
32:43
inspired me to get into my faith. Like, I think we
32:47
want to be open to him, but also I can't have him
32:51
being, like.
32:55
>> Mike Orr: Saying maybe some of the things that you. Yeah,
32:57
circles.
32:58
>> Loren: Yes.
32:58
>> Mike Orr: Yeah, yeah. So I think that's probably the
33:00
difference between, like, like a role model and an
33:04
authoritarian figure or, uh. Because I think I can
33:08
be an authority figure without being an
33:10
authoritarian figure.
33:11
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good.
33:12
>> Mike Orr: Right. And so, um, there are a number of young
33:16
people, and maybe even some not so young people
33:19
who think of me as an authority of some sort in
33:21
their lives.
33:21
>> Loren: Right.
33:22
>> Mike Orr: But that doesn't mean that I have to be the one
33:24
who says, here's your jacket.
33:26
>> Loren: Right, Right.
33:27
>> Mike Orr: Tie it on up. How can you.
33:29
>> Loren: Thank you for playing with the metaphor with me
33:31
here.
33:32
>> Mike Orr: So, um, we can offer different kinds of, uh, ways
33:37
of looking at faith, at spirituality, um,
33:44
following Jesus, you know, and we're talking about
33:46
Christianity here, right?
33:47
>> Loren: Right.
33:48
>> Mike Orr: Um, I think a lot of people, gosh, I know I have
33:52
lots of friends who either grew up in the church
33:54
or are continuing to be part of the church who
33:56
have a real hard time with the label Christian.
33:59
Right.
33:59
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
34:00
>> Mike Orr: Because it has been in many ways.
34:01
>> Loren: Co opted by, um, political ideology. Let's just be
34:06
frank.
34:06
>> Mike Orr: Political ideology, I think is a great, great word
34:09
for it. Um, I ran across a quote from Billy
34:13
Graham. Actually, um, I used it in another podcast
34:16
not long ago and I'm going to butcher it. I won't
34:18
completely. He, um, basically said he was very,
34:21
very deeply concerned about the idea of a marriage
34:23
between, um, Christianity, especially conservative
34:27
Christianity, and the political right. He said the
34:30
political right is only in it to manipulate. And
34:36
that was in 1981.
34:37
>> Loren: Yeah.
34:38
>> Mike Orr: And it feels very prescient.
34:40
>> Loren: Prescient.
34:41
>> Mike Orr: Uh, we like. It feels like that is what, is what
34:45
has happened. Um, and what breaks my heart so much
34:48
is seeing friends and family members and uh,
34:52
people I love who. It seems so clear to me that
34:56
there's been a manipulation happening. But they
34:59
don't see it. They see it as something more like
35:01
a, Ah, well, finally now we have, we have the
35:03
people in power. Now it's us. Now it's our turn.
35:05
>> Loren: Yeah.
35:06
>> Mike Orr: Um, and I, I just never felt like I've ever seen
35:11
anything in the gospels or in Paul's teachings
35:14
where it's like a, ah, now it's my turn.
35:16
>> Loren: Now it's my turn.
35:17
>> Mike Orr: Yeah, that's kind of this pretty almost
35:21
antithetical to the way of Jesus.
35:23
>> Loren: I mean, uh, yeah, I, hopefully you don't mind
35:29
getting into this, but I just, I just think about
35:31
like today is. I was kind of surprised to see
35:34
this, like my old youth pastor posting on Facebook
35:37
that today's Charlie Kirk Day. I mean, is it, uh,
35:44
more. I don't know, I just was like, what? Yeah,
35:47
someone just said like, this is Charlie Crick
35:49
Memorial Day. And like I have, I was really like
35:53
not a fan of like, certainly the way he went about
35:59
things. Like I was even worse a fan of some of the
36:02
responses to his awful and tragic killing. But
36:08
also I'm kind of like troubled by this idea that
36:12
like he is being held up as like martyrs. Like,
36:15
this is idea of like what it means to be a good
36:17
Christian.
36:20
>> Mike Orr: So curious to me as well.
36:21
>> Loren: And um, I'm like, this is where again, I think
36:24
about me being a 40 something man and I think
36:29
about like my son, I think about other young men
36:33
and teenagers Boys. And I'm like, how do I model
36:37
for them? A healthy masculinity that. It's not
36:40
like.
36:41
>> Mike Orr: Yeah, yeah.
36:42
>> Loren: Like, I want them to be passionate about their
36:44
faith, but I also don't think, like, being a jerk.
36:48
>> Mike Orr: Yeah. And that's, I think, I guess to go back to
36:52
the idea of. Yeah. Modeling role model. Ah.
36:54
Authority figure rather than authoritarian figure.
36:56
>> Loren: Right.
36:57
>> Mike Orr: However I want to say it, um, how can I be an
36:59
adult in the life of a young person, maybe
37:02
especially a young man, that models, um, faithful
37:07
life with Jesus?
37:08
>> Loren: Yeah.
37:09
>> Mike Orr: But isn't, um, abrasive about it? I don't know if
37:15
the word is abrasive. Um, not. I'm not trying to
37:21
indoctrinate anybody. I'm not trying to force
37:24
anything. I'm not even trying to argue anything.
37:27
>> Loren: Yeah.
37:27
>> Mike Orr: Conversations.
37:28
>> Loren: I mean, gosh, that was like the 90s, like, wasn't
37:31
it?
37:32
>> Mike Orr: Yeah.
37:32
>> Loren: Like apologetics and evidence that demands a
37:34
verdict. This idea. Like, we could, like, argue
37:36
people into their faith. And I think. I think to
37:38
some extent, like, we've seen that almost that's
37:41
become like, the thing politically. The move is
37:44
like, if, If. If I can either argue you into your
37:47
changing your opinion or shame you.
37:49
>> Mike Orr: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's kind of. There
37:53
have always been some people that have been
37:54
attracted to that.
37:55
>> Loren: Right.
37:55
>> Mike Orr: And modeling things. Right. And there are certain,
37:58
um, strands of Christianity, certain, um, kind of
38:01
faith traditions and theological traditions in
38:04
Christianity that lend themselves more to that
38:07
kind of. Kind of argumentative style or, um, you
38:10
know, uh, premises. Premises. Premises. You know,
38:14
like, I got a premise of. Premise of premise and
38:16
inclusion style. Right. Where you're like, it's
38:18
very logical. Um, I didn't. I don't see. I mean,
38:22
Paul did that maybe a little bit, but not in the
38:24
classical kind of Greek philosophy style. Uh,
38:27
Jesus didn't seem to care about that at all. Um,
38:32
and there's a. There's a. When I was in seminary,
38:36
I had a friend. We, uh, were having a conversation
38:37
about this kind of thing.
38:39
But, like, aren't those people just. We were
38:43
talking about this kind of, you know, movement.
38:44
Like, like, well, but if you can argue this and
38:45
you can, like, convince somebody of this thing.
38:47
I'm. Like, I said something like. But I feel like,
38:49
aren't those people just a holes?
38:50
>> Loren: Yeah.
38:51
>> Mike Orr: Like there's. There's being jerks.
38:53
>> Loren: Yeah.
38:53
>> Mike Orr: Be. Right, Right, right. And like, I think there
38:57
are other ways.
38:58
>> Loren: Right.
38:59
>> Mike Orr: And so I want to be. You know, maybe it's, uh, the
39:02
young man in the maga hat that you mentioned
39:03
before. Who comes and has a bunch of ideas I'm not
39:06
gonna necessarily argue those ideas with.
39:09
>> Loren: Right.
39:10
>> Mike Orr: Um, I think one of. Number one, it won't be fair.
39:12
Right, right. Like, and I don't mean to sound, um,
39:15
disparaging. Disparaging of a young person or to
39:18
lift myself up, but like, I've been around longer,
39:21
I've argued for longer, I have extensive
39:24
education. Um, and that I think, I mean, I don't
39:30
want to any listeners who like Charlie, uh, Kirk
39:34
or who are big fans to get mad. Um, and I don't
39:39
know much about him. And when people talked about
39:40
him being Christian martyr, I was like, well,
39:42
everything I saw of him, none of it seemed to be
39:43
around Christianity. It was around political
39:46
things. Which is fine.
39:47
>> Loren: Right.
39:47
>> Mike Orr: And the problem that I had with him wasn't his
39:50
necessarily his ideology, it was that he presented
39:54
things as honest arguments.
39:55
>> Loren: Right.
39:55
>> Mike Orr: And he was an elite level debater, talking with
39:59
random kids on a college campus in a way that was
40:01
kind of belittling in my, in my view. And I don't
40:06
want to be one who belittles people. I was
40:09
actually, I was talking with somebody about this
40:11
recently. And maybe I can be condescending. I can
40:16
be, uh, maybe, uh. You haven't seen this because
40:19
I've matured. There has been some sanctification
40:22
in my life.
40:23
>> Loren: Well, I just laughing because I love to be
40:25
condescending. Like, I love that idea.
40:27
>> Mike Orr: It feels great. So juicy.
40:29
>> Loren: Yeah. When you're just like, smart, own the other
40:31
person.
40:32
>> Mike Orr: You make somebody feel so small.
40:34
>> Loren: Yeah.
40:35
>> Mike Orr: Um, that is just so far from the way of Jesus. Um,
40:40
now, Jesus did do that with me, with the Pharisees
40:42
sometimes. Right.
40:43
>> Loren: Like, well, isn't that, I'm sorry, jumping. But
40:45
like, isn't that it? I think in some ways because
40:47
like, like, shame to go back to this idea of like,
40:52
sometimes we do need shame. Like, like, frankly,
40:55
some of our leaders right now could use to feel
40:58
some shame about some of the actions that are
41:00
going on in our nation. Like the way they're
41:02
treating, um, immigrants.
41:05
>> Mike Orr: The least of these.
41:06
>> Loren: The least of these. Like, yeah, I want them to
41:08
feel some shame about that. But also, like, I
41:12
don't think we necessarily need to be shaming
41:14
everybody.
41:15
>> Mike Orr: No, certainly not. So when I think of, like, how I
41:18
would approach a young person who I disagree with,
41:20
which happens all the time.
41:21
>> Loren: Right.
41:21
>> Mike Orr: We have conversations that, um, respect the
41:25
dignity.
41:26
>> Loren: Yeah.
41:26
>> Mike Orr: And uh, intellect.
41:29
>> Loren: Yeah.
41:30
>> Mike Orr: And uh, even morality of, of the person that I'm
41:35
talking with. Because when we disagree with
41:37
someone, especially about something, they really
41:39
carry about, care about. It seems like there are a
41:43
small handful of kind of go to reactions we have
41:46
and that is that, oh, well, if you don't think the
41:49
way I do, then you must either be stupid.
41:51
>> Loren: Right.
41:51
>> Mike Orr: You can't comprehend it on the level that I can
41:53
comprehend. Um, maybe you're evil.
41:57
>> Loren: Mhm.
41:58
>> Mike Orr: And you just have decided that, you know, this is
42:01
bad and you like it anyway, or that you're like
42:05
crazy, you're like mentally unwell.
42:07
>> Loren: Right.
42:08
>> Mike Orr: And almost none of those are ever actually true.
42:10
>> Loren: Right.
42:11
>> Mike Orr: And they always dehumanize, always make someone
42:15
else smaller.
42:16
>> Loren: Yeah.
42:16
>> Mike Orr: And so I think, I think if you asked most of my
42:20
kids, uh, when I say my kids, I mean the students
42:23
that I work with, I think they would say that they
42:27
feel respected, that I think of them as a real
42:30
whole human person, not like a person in training
42:34
or like a, ah, partial person who will one day be
42:37
a real adult.
42:38
>> Loren: Right.
42:39
>> Mike Orr: I think of every human as like a real whole human
42:42
being. And starting with that would be very
42:46
disarming as well. Not that my intention is to get
42:49
past somebody's defenses, but certainly if we're
42:52
going to have a meaningful relationship or
42:53
conversation, there can't be huge walls between
42:55
us.
42:55
>> Loren: Yeah.
42:56
>> Mike Orr: And so, uh, starting with that, like basic dignity
43:00
and respecting somebody's, uh, position and
43:03
talking about it in a way that is, uh, doesn't
43:06
bring up more defenses can be I think, really
43:09
helpful. So for a young man who maybe disagrees
43:13
with me politically or theologically or whatever,
43:15
that doesn't mean we can't have a great
43:17
conversation and learn from each other.
43:19
>> Loren: Right.
43:19
>> Mike Orr: Because that's the other thing, man. And I know
43:22
I've said this to you before, I work with
43:24
adolescents and they haven't been to seminary
43:29
corrupted by theological education. Um, they
43:32
haven't, um, been studying the Bible for as long
43:36
as I have. They haven't been, um, I don't know,
43:40
having deep conversations about spirituality and
43:44
faith as long as I have. And I learn something
43:47
from them every single time. Every time. Because
43:52
they have insights that I've never had before or
43:56
never would have had before, never could in the
43:59
future.
43:59
Because they're a different person. Um, or maybe
44:02
they remind me of an insight or something that I
44:06
held dear that I've kind of like just kind of
44:08
forgotten or.
44:09
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
44:10
>> Mike Orr: And when you believe, when you trust that it is
44:15
true that the youngest person, the least
44:18
experienced person in your life can say something
44:20
to you that is more deeply true than you were
44:23
holding onto before, that changes the game.
44:26
>> Loren: Yeah, it does.
44:28
>> Mike Orr: And it Changes the kind of, like, in my. In my
44:30
experience, the kind of ministry that I do.
44:34
>> Loren: Yeah, this is good stuff.
44:36
Uh, two more questions I want to do before we move
44:38
on to closing questions. You talked about, like,
44:41
building a wall. Like, I want to give some. Some
44:44
time here. When I think about. We talked about
44:46
young men. I want to think about young women.
44:48
Like, the data that I've seen is, like, the young
44:52
men and young women are kind of on these. I won't
44:54
say polar opposite, but certainly have this kind
44:55
of opposite trend lines happening of probably
44:59
again, broad brushing here. Young men kind of
45:01
leaning more conservative. Young women kind of
45:03
leading more liberal or progressive. Like, what.
45:08
How have you seen that? How do you. How do you
45:10
minister to that? And then, like, uh, I kind of
45:13
think even. How do you. Speaking of walls, like,
45:17
tear that down? Because, like, I think to some
45:19
reason, like, we need, for the sake of
45:21
relationships, tear down some walls. Yeah. Come
45:25
together, man. I mean, I'm just so glad that I
45:27
have not. Like, I didn't. Like, I don't have to
45:30
navigate the dating field like, now.
45:32
>> Mike Orr: I'm very happy about that. Um, gosh, I mean, I do
45:36
see the differences. And, um, when I talk with
45:41
young people, I don't see too many young women who
45:45
are leaning hard. Right. Uh, and I don't see as
45:51
many young men who are leaning harder left. Like,
45:54
I see it anecdotally from experience, and I've
45:58
seen the numbers. Um, I think to some degree, all
46:02
that stuff ends up being a little bit exaggerated.
46:04
>> Loren: Yeah.
46:05
>> Mike Orr: I mean, we are all more than answers on a survey.
46:10
>> Loren: Yeah.
46:10
>> Mike Orr: Right.
46:10
>> Loren: Yeah, that's a good point.
46:11
>> Mike Orr: Every human. And I don't mean to, like, say that
46:14
it's not worth looking at.
46:15
>> Loren: Right.
46:15
>> Mike Orr: But we all have so much more to us than our stance
46:23
on an issue. We all have so much more to us than,
46:29
um, kind of any type of label.
46:32
>> Loren: Yeah.
46:32
>> Mike Orr: And so, um, getting to those things, like, and
46:36
it's not just like, well, find things we have in
46:38
common. Yeah, that, of course there's m. That, um.
46:41
But just seeing people as more than their, like,
46:46
most aberrant view. In your opinion. Right.
46:48
>> Loren: And that's really like, what, I don't know, social
46:51
media algorithms. Whatever has done to us is
46:53
saying, like, you are your. Your top label or
46:56
identity. Right.
46:57
>> Mike Orr: Yep, Yep. Or, uh, algorithms that.
47:00
>> Loren: Right.
47:01
>> Mike Orr: This podcast into your feed.
47:02
>> Loren: Yeah. I mean, bless this algorithm if you're
47:05
listening, but.
47:06
>> Mike Orr: Yeah. Right. But on the other hand, there is an
47:09
echo chamber.
47:10
>> Loren: Right, Right.
47:11
>> Mike Orr: So having a way to, like, dampen the echoes.
47:14
>> Loren: Right.
47:14
>> Mike Orr: And Bring people together. Um, I mean, we have
47:18
young men and young women in our group, and that
47:20
helps with conversation.
47:22
>> Loren: Yeah.
47:22
>> Mike Orr: Kind of seeing and hearing, uh, opinions. And we
47:27
can respectfully disagree or we can, um, maybe
47:31
even push on when we. We hear something that we're
47:34
like, I don't know about that We. We have a space.
47:37
We've created a culture where every question is
47:42
okay.
47:42
>> Loren: Yeah.
47:43
>> Mike Orr: Um, every question is actually welcome. That we,
47:46
um. That there's nothing off limits, that we can
47:49
talk about anything. Um, but we do it in a way
47:52
that honors other people and I hope demonstrates
47:56
the love that Jesus has for all of us and that
48:00
then we have for each other. So I think that's
48:03
part of it. Um, I decided long ago that I don't
48:09
want to be in the business of indoctrination. Uh,
48:12
that I will not do that. And so I'm not
48:15
necessarily in the business of, like, changing
48:19
kids into believing just what I do about things.
48:21
>> Loren: Yeah.
48:22
>> Mike Orr: I'm much more interested in. And I've found to be
48:25
much more effective, I think, to help young people
48:30
to begin to own their own faith, to explore what
48:36
it is they believe now and what. How those beliefs
48:39
are, uh, developing.
48:41
>> Loren: Well, let's move into this, because I did want to
48:44
talk about this. This idea of, like, I think we've
48:46
talked about this before. This idea that
48:47
deconstruction to some extent, like, it is
48:50
inevitable.
48:51
>> Mike Orr: Yeah.
48:52
>> Loren: So you talk about helping kids own and explore,
48:54
like, versus indoctrinate. Like, how have you seen
48:59
that play out? When you think about, like, kids
49:00
who graduated youth ministry on college and young
49:06
adulthood, like, what does that look like?
49:09
>> Mike Orr: Yeah. Um, I think there's, you know, there's a lot
49:13
of hand wringing about, you know, stats and
49:16
numbers about kids.
49:17
>> Loren: Right.
49:18
>> Mike Orr: Graduating, um, from church.
49:19
>> Loren: Right.
49:20
>> Mike Orr: From high school. And I, uh, think there will
49:23
probably always be some level of that.
49:25
>> Loren: Right. Yeah.
49:26
>> Mike Orr: When you have full autonomy in your life.
49:29
>> Loren: Right.
49:30
>> Mike Orr: Or a level you never had before, you're gonna make
49:32
different decisions than you did before or than
49:34
your parents did for you. Natural, normal,
49:37
probably even healthy.
49:38
>> Loren: Yeah. Right.
49:38
>> Mike Orr: Um, what I see is I, uh. I have actually really
49:42
good relationships with many hundreds of kids who
49:47
have come through, um, the programs that I lead or
49:51
the ministries that I'm a part of. And a lot of
49:55
them come back and say. And that is not to toot my
49:58
own horn, but say thank you for the way that you
50:00
gave space for me to kind of develop my own faith.
50:04
I didn't feel like I had to ascribe to a certain
50:09
set of Doctrines and that gave me the freedom to
50:12
actually come back as uh, a young adult, um, and
50:20
find Jesus in a new way. Um, I've got one, one
50:26
young woman now who talks about that, uh, every
50:30
time I talk to her, um, and young men as well. And
50:34
uh, it's an honor to have that kind of impact, uh,
50:37
on a person. And I don't know, maybe if I had a
50:42
different approach to ministry where it was more
50:45
rigid or more, maybe there would be even more. But
50:48
I don't think so because what it seems to me is
50:50
that when, when the answers that were kind of
50:54
spoon fed to you don't work anymore.
50:57
>> Loren: Yeah.
50:58
>> Mike Orr: Because anything that's spoon fed is just too
51:00
simple, right?
51:01
>> Loren: Yeah.
51:01
>> Mike Orr: Um, if you're just given answers or just given
51:05
kind of, I don't know, like a rigid worldview, as
51:10
soon as something comes up against it.
51:11
>> Loren: Yeah.
51:12
>> Mike Orr: Then it starts to fall apart. It starts to
51:14
shatter.
51:14
>> Loren: Yep.
51:15
>> Mike Orr: And if you don't have, if I don't give somebody
51:17
tools.
51:18
>> Loren: Right.
51:18
>> Mike Orr: To think about this stuff on their own.
51:21
>> Loren: Yeah.
51:21
>> Mike Orr: And to develop their own way of, of having a
51:25
relationship with a living God who I believe is
51:29
real and really here in this moment, even with
51:33
these microphones in between us. Um, then, then
51:37
I'm just passing on something that was passed on
51:41
to me. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but
51:44
it's just like a photocopy. Right.
51:46
>> Loren: Okay, we gotta, we gotta do this because I know
51:48
we're supposed to move on a clear of closing
51:51
questions, but I, I gotta ask you this. Like to me
51:55
like what you're saying is like. Yes, yes. And I
51:58
think like I have a teenager and I'm like
52:01
terrified. She's awesome, but like I want her to
52:07
have a faith.
52:08
>> Mike Orr: Mhm.
52:09
>> Loren: Like that's like hugely important.
52:13
>> Mike Orr: Yeah.
52:14
>> Loren: And I'm like, I find myself having to like, I feel
52:19
like do this battle or tension or of like how much
52:23
do I, I don't want to say force feed or spoon
52:26
feed, but kind of like grease the wheels. Yeah,
52:29
yeah, yeah. And then also like give her space.
52:35
So I mean, one thing we were going to talk about,
52:37
and I suppose this can be it, like is like where
52:40
does family, where do parents play on the faith?
52:43
Like how do you, I mean, hey, I'm asking for me
52:46
more than anybody.
52:47
>> Mike Orr: Like uh, like, oh man, once I, once I figure this
52:50
all out, you'll be publishing.
52:52
>> Loren: You'll have that book published.
52:54
>> Mike Orr: Yeah, man, I've had so many books, I've thought of
52:56
writing.
52:56
>> Loren: Yeah.
52:57
>> Mike Orr: I ain't got the time, man. Uh, so man, parents.
53:02
This. All the studies point. And you shared an
53:05
article with me recently. Um, all the studies
53:07
point to parents as being the primary faith
53:09
influence in their children's. This is. I don't
53:13
think it's refutable. I think it is true. Um, does
53:19
that mean that you are, like, point by point,
53:21
teaching? No, I don't think so. I think you're
53:23
modeling into your life. It's your faith that is
53:27
going to make the difference. And saying the right
53:29
words isn't going to hurt. But they're totally
53:33
secondary. The words are totally secondary to the
53:35
way that you live out your faith in. In broad
53:40
view. Right. Um, and I think that's also true for
53:43
any of us.
53:44
>> Loren: Right.
53:44
>> Mike Orr: Church. It's just that for, for your kids.
53:47
>> Loren: Right.
53:48
>> Mike Orr: You are the one that they're looking at.
53:50
>> Loren: Right.
53:52
>> Mike Orr: And that mean that puts some pressure on. Right?
53:55
Because, like, it's not just like, say the right
53:58
thing at the right time.
53:58
>> Loren: And, like, I can farm it all off to Mike or my
54:00
youth pastor.
54:01
>> Mike Orr: You shouldn't.
54:02
>> Loren: Right, right.
54:02
>> Mike Orr: Man, let's not, like, let's not farm it out. Let's
54:05
not, um, hire somebody to do the spiritual
54:09
babysitting.
54:09
>> Loren: Yeah, right.
54:10
>> Mike Orr: Um, that's, that's also super damaging. And so,
54:13
like, in that article you sent, it talked a lot
54:16
about, like, well, you know, youth ministry
54:17
doesn't do the thing. It's like, why are we even
54:19
bothering? And he, uh, came from a very particular
54:22
mindset. And I respect, uh, those who say, say
54:27
those kinds of things because I think we need to
54:28
hear it.
54:29
>> Loren: Right, right.
54:29
>> Mike Orr: Like, what is youth ministry for anyway? And, um,
54:33
if it's simply, um, cloning, like spiritual
54:38
clones, then youth ministry is absolutely failing.
54:41
And in my view, youth ministry is not creating
54:45
spiritual clones.
54:46
>> Loren: Right.
54:47
>> Mike Orr: It's, um, developing people who have their own
54:53
unique relationship with their creator.
54:56
>> Loren: Taking this back to the beginning, when we're
54:58
thinking about 90s youth ministry, do you think
55:00
that's an important change has happened? Because,
55:05
like, I think about, like, I don't know about you,
55:08
Mike, but I feel like the, the, the dream, every
55:10
youth ministers, youth pastor's dream was to like,
55:13
I'm gonna have like, a booming youth group with
55:16
like, our own separate M. Ministry, like mini
55:19
church, all that stuff. Like, I, uh, don't know if
55:22
that's tracking for you, but, like, is that, like,
55:25
when I think of cloning, it's like, I'm just gonna
55:27
clone this separate group of believers. And I feel
55:31
like what you're trying to do, what you're talking
55:34
about is this idea of, like, we're going to be
55:37
working with small group within the church. I
55:40
don't know if that. If that metaphor makes sense.
55:42
Like, it's not going to be.
55:43
>> Mike Orr: Yeah. Some experts have talked about it as, like,
55:45
a disintegration with, uh, youth ministry, and
55:49
then actually other kinds of ministries followed.
55:51
Youth ministries happen to be the first to do it.
55:53
>> Loren: Right.
55:54
>> Mike Orr: Ended up becoming this kind of like, mostly
55:56
disconnected blob.
55:57
>> Loren: Siloed.
55:58
>> Mike Orr: They connected.
55:58
>> Loren: Yeah.
55:59
>> Mike Orr: Siloed.
55:59
>> Loren: Yeah.
56:00
>> Mike Orr: Um, to the church. And it served really no one.
56:03
>> Loren: Right.
56:04
>> Mike Orr: Because, um, like, kids were off doing their own
56:08
thing. Um, and that's not where you learn what it
56:13
means. Like, we talked about it a few times, like,
56:15
to. To model what it means to be an adult who
56:18
follows Jesus is basically what I want our youth
56:22
ministry to do.
56:23
>> Loren: Right.
56:24
>> Mike Orr: Is for kids to have contact with each other. Of
56:27
course.
56:27
>> Loren: Right, right.
56:27
>> Mike Orr: Learn from each other, but also to see what it
56:30
looks like to follow Jesus as an adult. In
56:32
addition to their parents right now, we also have
56:36
kids who are part of our youth group who don't
56:38
have parents who follow Jesus. For them, we're it.
56:42
Right, right. Um, and for those who are lucky
56:45
enough to have two parents who follow Jesus.
56:47
Right. So they have two parents, and hopefully 5,
56:51
6, 7, 8, 9, 10 other adults they know really well
56:55
who are following Jesus and they know what it
56:57
looks like in their lives. And so it's not all on
57:02
the parents, but it's also not all on, like, you
57:06
know, falling out to, you know, a spiritual
57:08
advisor of some sort who gets paid to do fun games
57:11
and pizza.
57:11
>> Loren: And I. Yeah, I sort of wonder if, like, we've. We
57:15
should. We should transition on this.
57:17
Like, I just read Malcolm, uh, Gladwell's book the
57:19
Tipping Point, which is some years old, but, like,
57:22
his point is, like, context. It's not everything,
57:26
but it's more than we think about. And I. I'm just
57:29
wondering if, like, that's what we've
57:31
misidentified what youth ministry is for. It's
57:35
like. It's more about providing context rather
57:37
than, like, pumping out products, man.
57:42
>> Mike Orr: I think that's. Isn't that the church, too?
57:45
>> Loren: Yeah.
57:46
>> Mike Orr: Right.
57:46
>> Loren: I mean, you're not wrong.
57:48
>> Mike Orr: And, like, to some degree, I feel it deep level,
57:52
like, uh, is what I'm doing in this very moment,
57:54
in this second, pumping out a product? Is it a.
57:58
And that's not to, like. I love this podcast.
58:00
>> Loren: No, I know, I know. Yeah.
58:03
>> Mike Orr: I feel this tension all the time.
58:04
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
58:05
>> Mike Orr: We live in a consumer.
58:06
>> Loren: Right.
58:07
>> Mike Orr: Where I feel the pressure all the.
58:08
>> Loren: Time, producing Content to create.
58:10
>> Mike Orr: To produce content. To create a good program.
58:12
>> Loren: Right.
58:12
>> Mike Orr: That I can send my kids to.
58:14
>> Loren: Right.
58:14
>> Mike Orr: Where they're going to learn the right things to
58:16
become, uh, good people. Yeah, good people or
58:19
whatever it is, or reach some sort of faith
58:21
milestone.
58:22
>> Loren: Right.
58:22
>> Mike Orr: Check a box that gets them into heaven. Yeah,
58:25
yeah. Um, and I try to live my life and live in
58:30
ministry in a way that is. That is just not the
58:33
case. That we're not pumping out a product, that
58:35
it's not a consumer commodity. Um, but it's hard
58:38
because we live in a consumer commodity culture.
58:45
>> Loren: Uh, and I'm going to ask you some of these closing
58:47
questions here. And I've kind of tweaked this last
58:49
question. So if you're like youth ministry Pope, I
58:52
mean, you're not Pope Leo, but you're, you know,
58:55
youth ministry pope.
58:56
>> Mike Orr: I can answer both, by the way.
58:57
>> Loren: Okay, okay, give me both. What are you doing for
59:00
that day?
59:01
>> Mike Orr: Oh, man. Uh, well, youth ministry Pope and I would
59:04
get a. Get rid of any game, youth group game that
59:10
embarrasses a kid.
59:12
>> Loren: Oh, love it. Like I'm m. Signing up tomorrow for
59:14
that. Right, like that papal. Papal bull. Right?
59:18
>> Mike Orr: Yeah, yeah. Because, because look, man, there's.
59:22
There have been, there's been a tradition in youth
59:24
ministry. It's still happening in some schools.
59:26
There are these games where it's like, I don't
59:29
know if they start scar the kids necessarily, but
59:31
like, we can have a lot of fun together, right? We
59:34
can do a lot of things that build each other up
59:37
right out. Uh, anybody feeling like, weird? I had
59:40
a lesson. That's awkward.
59:41
>> Loren: That's enough awkwardness.
59:43
>> Mike Orr: Like we like. My whole, you know, my philosophy
59:46
around games and kind of how we play well together
59:49
is, is very different. So that's what.
59:50
>> Loren: That's the first thing that's good.
59:52
>> Mike Orr: Uh, but if I was Pope. Pope, uh, like women in
59:55
ministry ordain women of Greece. Just like that.
59:58
>> Loren: Let's do it.
59:59
>> Mike Orr: That's what we do.
1:00:00
>> Loren: I like both of those. Um, let's see, quickly, a
1:00:03
theologian, historical figure.
1:00:06
>> Mike Orr: I mean, the one that always comes to mind is C.S.
1:00:08
>> Loren: Lewis. Okay.
1:00:10
>> Mike Orr: Yeah, I would have dinner with that guy. And man,
1:00:12
we just have. I mean, I would. I'm sure I'd feel
1:00:15
very, very dim witted for most of the time. I
1:00:19
think he'd be so fascinating to talk to.
1:00:22
>> Loren: Something I've heard about CS Lewis is that he was
1:00:24
kind of rough around the edges and I feel like I
1:00:26
could appreciate that about. Yeah, yeah. Um,
1:00:30
something history. Uh, history. What do you think
1:00:33
History will remember from our current time and
1:00:35
place. Ah.
1:00:37
>> Mike Orr: Uh, gosh, I mean, this is hard to answer because
1:00:39
it feels like even just five years ago, we'd have
1:00:42
been like, oh, man, the political division. And if
1:00:44
only five years ago, people could see us now.
1:00:46
>> Loren: Yeah. Um. Yeah, because even today, we're like,
1:00:48
Covid, what was that?
1:00:49
>> Mike Orr: Yeah, right. I know. So I think there's a. When it
1:00:53
comes to Christianity, at least, I think there's a
1:00:56
movement toward Christian nationalism that I think
1:00:59
will be remarked upon by history.
1:01:01
>> Loren: Yeah.
1:01:02
>> Mike Orr: Um, and this is cyclical. Like, this happens. This
1:01:05
comes and goes. Not the first time, it won't be
1:01:07
the last.
1:01:07
>> Loren: Right.
1:01:08
>> Mike Orr: Um, but eventually we realize how, uh, dangerous
1:01:15
and damaging it is to the nation and to the
1:01:18
Christian.
1:01:19
>> Loren: Yeah.
1:01:20
>> Mike Orr: Um, that to go so far from what I see as the way
1:01:24
of Jesus, um, I think it'll. I think it'll be
1:01:28
remarkable. I think we'll. We'll be talking about
1:01:30
it, and maybe, uh, I'll have young people being
1:01:33
like, is it true we did this? Yep.
1:01:39
>> Loren: Grandpa Mike. Or, uh, volunteering and youth
1:01:45
ministry just retired. What do you hope then for
1:01:50
the future of Christianity? Or maybe even, like,
1:01:55
um. Let me say it this way. Like, when I was in
1:01:57
youth ministry, I remember, like. Or no, when I
1:01:59
was. When I was a kid in youth ministry, I
1:02:01
remember, like, this youth pastor saying to me,
1:02:03
like, I don't want to be the next Billy. Billy.
1:02:06
No, um, Moody.
1:02:09
>> Mike Orr: Yeah. Yeah.
1:02:10
>> Loren: What was his first name? No, whatever his name.
1:02:14
Moody. He didn't want to be the next Moody. Uh,
1:02:17
great evangelist for revivalist, for a non. Maybe
1:02:20
conservative listeners. He wanted to be, like, the
1:02:24
youth pastor of, like, the next Dwight L. Moody.
1:02:27
>> Mike Orr: Yes. Very good.
1:02:29
>> Loren: Thank you. Like what? Like, I don't know. We're.
1:02:34
>> Mike Orr: Again, like, for me, um, I think.
1:02:37
>> Loren: Of what gives you hope about the kids in your
1:02:40
youth ministry right now.
1:02:42
>> Mike Orr: Oh, I have so much hope. Oh, friends, if you're.
1:02:46
Listen. If you. If you listened all the way till
1:02:47
now, I have so much hope. Uh, teenagers are, ah,
1:02:51
so amazing, and this generation is so amazing.
1:02:55
And, uh, there's some scriptures that talk about
1:02:58
kind of like what, uh, heaven is like or kind of
1:03:02
like what, um, the kingdom of God is like. And it
1:03:04
talks about kind of, you know, every nation, every
1:03:08
nationality, every ethnic group, every language.
1:03:11
Everybody's gonna be present kind of at this big
1:03:13
banquet table. So imagine this giant table. And
1:03:17
like most of our kids, it, uh, feels like they're
1:03:20
ready for that. They're more open to it than so
1:03:23
many adults. So my hope for the future of
1:03:25
Christianity is that we continue to just pull up
1:03:29
more chairs to the table that we keep on. We gotta
1:03:32
add another leaf or build a bigger room to hold
1:03:35
the table. And I know for the introverts among us,
1:03:38
that sounds terrible. Um, think of it as a
1:03:40
metaphor.
1:03:41
>> Loren: Mike is talking to me in case the listeners.
1:03:44
>> Mike Orr: Well, you know, uh, we know each other.
1:03:47
>> Loren: Yeah.
1:03:47
>> Mike Orr: Um, this. It doesn't. It's the idea of. It's for
1:03:53
everyone.
1:03:53
>> Loren: Yeah.
1:03:54
>> Mike Orr: And if you have a hard time being at a table with
1:03:59
someone who's not like you, then you're gonna feel
1:04:03
pretty hot under the collar.
1:04:04
>> Loren: Yeah.
1:04:05
>> Mike Orr: In the kingdom of God.
1:04:06
>> Loren: Yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff. Well, I gotta run,
1:04:11
unfortunately. And I appreciate this conversation.
1:04:13
Uh, we always leave folks with the word of peace
1:04:15
on our podcast and we get to do it in person.
1:04:17
Mike, may God's peace be with you.
1:04:19
>> Mike Orr: And also with you. Thanks for joining us on the
1:04:29
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1:04:32
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1:04:56
>> Loren: Thanks.
1:04:56
>> Mike Orr: And go in PE.