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Gretchen Rubin Will Teach You to be Happy · Reasonably Happy with Paul Ollinger

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SPEAKER_01: Most of the time
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SPEAKER_00: Hello, ladies and gentlemen.
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SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to another episode of Reasonably Happy.
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SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Paul Ollinger.
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SPEAKER_00: I am thrilled to welcome today my guest, Gretchen Rubin.
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SPEAKER_00: You probably know who she is,
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SPEAKER_00: but in case you don't,
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SPEAKER_00: she is the author of several books,
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SPEAKER_00: including The Happiness Project,
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SPEAKER_00: Happier at Home,
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SPEAKER_00: Better Than Before.
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SPEAKER_00: and the Four Tendencies among many others.
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She's also the host of Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast that
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you record with your sister.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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SPEAKER_00: That's such a labor of love.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: No, it's really fun.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm so happy to be talking to you today.
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SPEAKER_01: We're interested in so many of the same things.
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SPEAKER_00: Thank you for coming in.
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SPEAKER_00: Let me ask you as we start every podcast, where do you find yourself?
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SPEAKER_00: Where and when do you find yourself the happiest?
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SPEAKER_01: Probably reading in bed.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh,
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yeah I'm a pretty kind of a killjoy type personality so yeah
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and I'll often reread
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books so maybe rereading a book that I already know that I love
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there's not even
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any suspense about how much I enjoy the book what's the best
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book you've ever
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reread oh I don't know I can't I love to read so I couldn't
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pick there's a million
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books of every different kind so I couldn't it's like Sophie's
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Choice how could I
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SPEAKER_00: choose I can't choose how many books do you read every year
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a lot I do read a lot of and this is one of the mysteries of my
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life because I do
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read a lot of books but I feel like I'm never reading I feel
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like I and on our pie
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on the happier podcast we have an annual challenge and this
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year it's read 25 and
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SPEAKER_01: 25 so to read for 25 minutes and in 2025
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every day you mean every day so trying to have that habit of
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reading because a lot
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of people they know they're happier when they're reading and it
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just kind of falls
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out of their schedule so this is 25 feels achievable 25 feels
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achievable yeah and
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audiobooks count and so yeah okay but it's like for a lot of
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people they know
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they're happier when they read but they just don't make time
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for it and so this is
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a way to help and this thing yeah makes it harder for us to
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make the time to read
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so you need to like you know this is a way to sort of make it
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make it part of your
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SPEAKER_01: life at least for a year
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And I read a lot and people are like,
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how do you get so much reading then?
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SPEAKER_01: But I feel like I'm never reading.
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SPEAKER_01: I should do some kind of like time tracking.
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SPEAKER_01: I was trained as a lawyer.
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SPEAKER_01: So the idea of like tracking my hours does not appeal to me.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm like, when am I?
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SPEAKER_01: That seems like it should be right in your DNA though.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Like when am I reading?
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know, but I do read a lot.
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SPEAKER_01: I do get a lot of books read.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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SPEAKER_00: When you were 13 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?
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I never think about the future I never thought about it really
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no no I don't I
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didn't even think about it when I went to law school I I never
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I don't know why I
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always just think why did you go to law school if you weren't
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thinking about the
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SPEAKER_00: future
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SPEAKER_01: Because I didn't know what else to do with myself.
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SPEAKER_01: I was good at reading and research and writing.
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SPEAKER_01: And I thought to myself, well, this will keep my options open.
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SPEAKER_01: It's great training for anything I want to do.
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SPEAKER_01: I can change my mind later.
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SPEAKER_01: My father was a lawyer who was very happy.
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SPEAKER_01: So I had that model.
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SPEAKER_01: He wasn't pushing me to go to law school, but I had that model.
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So I went for all the wrong reasons because I just simply
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didn't know what to do with myself.
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SPEAKER_00: But you didn't go to KU or Kansas State Law School.
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SPEAKER_00: You went to Yale Law School.
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SPEAKER_00: So there had to be some preparation.
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Oh,
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no,
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well,
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no,
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because I'm really good at reading and research and writing.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I was a really good,
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SPEAKER_01: and I'm really good at,
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SPEAKER_01: if somebody says,
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SPEAKER_01: this is what you need to do,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm really good at being like,
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SPEAKER_01: okay,
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SPEAKER_01: then I will do that thing.
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SPEAKER_01: And so, so I was like, I'll get good grades.
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SPEAKER_01: Then I got, I'll take the LSAT.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I got a good LSAT.
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SPEAKER_01: I'll apply.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, I got into Yale Law School.
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SPEAKER_01: Yale Law School is a really great, fun place to go.
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SPEAKER_01: So I was like, well, of course I'm going to go to Yale Law School.
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SPEAKER_01: Then I, you know, so I never thought about the future.
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SPEAKER_00: I took the LSAT and you know what it told me?
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SPEAKER_00: What?
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SPEAKER_00: Don't go to law school.
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SPEAKER_01: But that's good.
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SPEAKER_00: It's the second best thing you can learn by taking the LSAT.
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SPEAKER_01: Right, right, exactly.
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But I always say to people,
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like,
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go to law school if you want to be a lawyer.
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Don't go to law school because you can't think of what else to
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do with yourself.
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SPEAKER_00: What kind of law did your dad practice?
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he had his own firm he did a lot of stuff like for instance he
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did reinsurance
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which is like insurance company he did a lot of stuff with sort
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of the state you
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SPEAKER_01: know
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SPEAKER_00: But he was a happy lawyer, you said?
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SPEAKER_01: No, he really loved it.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he really loved it.
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SPEAKER_00: And a lot of lawyers,
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SPEAKER_00: especially later in their career,
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SPEAKER_00: are like,
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SPEAKER_00: this is hard for me to keep doing.
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SPEAKER_01: But so, you know why that is?
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SPEAKER_01: I think it's because a lot of people go to law school,
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SPEAKER_01: like me,
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SPEAKER_01: not because they want to go to law school,
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SPEAKER_01: and so they end up doing it and then they don't like it.
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SPEAKER_01: It's like sound engineers.
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People don't become sound engineers because they can't think of
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anything else to do
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SPEAKER_01: with themselves.
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The people who become sound engineers are interested in being
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sound engineers.
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SPEAKER_01: Only the people who are interested in it do it.
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But a lot of people who aren't particularly interested in law
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end up going into law.
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SPEAKER_01: And so then a lot of them, it's not a good fit.
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SPEAKER_01: So you should do it if it's the right choice for you.
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SPEAKER_01: I know many people who are extremely happy lawyers.
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SPEAKER_00: My high school counselor said,
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SPEAKER_00: oh,
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SPEAKER_00: you should be a corporate lawyer because you're a good student and you're
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SPEAKER_00: interested in being successful.
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SPEAKER_00: That's what you should go do.
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SPEAKER_01: And you're a really good talker, right?
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SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
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SPEAKER_01: You're very persuasive.
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SPEAKER_01: I have confidence.
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SPEAKER_01: Even if it's not accurate, it's confidence.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's right.
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So you could have been a good corporate lawyer if that's what
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you wanted to do,
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right?
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Like you had a skill set What does an 18 year old know about
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what a corporate lawyer?
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, do you even know what that was?
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Like I was in law school before I understood the difference
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between like a
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SPEAKER_01: litigator and a corporate lawyer,
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SPEAKER_01: right?
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SPEAKER_00: I didn't know I or an estate planning attorney No,
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SPEAKER_01: I knew what that was,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: I had no idea.
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Yeah,
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no idea How old were you when you figured out that you liked
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gold stars?
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, four, probably.
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SPEAKER_01: Four?
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SPEAKER_01: Two.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: No, I'm a person who always really likes positive reinforcement.
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SPEAKER_00: Positive reinforcement.
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SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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SPEAKER_01: How about you?
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SPEAKER_01: Do you care about gold stars?
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, my God.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah?
5:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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I remember in high school going to check the dean's list when
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it came out because I
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SPEAKER_00: knew if my name was on that list that I was okay,
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SPEAKER_00: that I was doing the things I was supposed to be doing.
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SPEAKER_00: and it was like, okay.
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And then if I'm the captain of the football team and the lead
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role in the play and
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SPEAKER_00: I'm in student council,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm doing all these things,
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SPEAKER_00: which I think were,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm one of six kids,
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probably an attempt to stand out and make myself to self-soothe
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with achievement,
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SPEAKER_00: which was something that I read as I read The Happiness Project.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I think we have some of these things in common.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: It's a lot of people who love their gold stars.
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so have the gold stars in your life do you still seek them do
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they still provide
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you with yes of course with soothing and it's funny because
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everybody knows that
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about me like I literally got a note from a friend and she said
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Gretchen you get
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all the stars and I was like you know I want all the stars or
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another friend of
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mine gave me like a little like a little I love for some reason
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a little glass jar
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with a cork stopper and she gave me that and it was it was
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filled with like little
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SPEAKER_01: So like I don't know they're gold starts that they're like an object.
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They're not a sticker They're just like little little objects
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and it was like,
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SPEAKER_01: you know open it in case of emergency So it's become a big joke.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes,
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but you have literally so for people that don't know you and I
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did I knew who you
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were and I had your book on my Shelf for years because I was
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like some point I'm
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SPEAKER_00: going to interview Gretchen read it right before So so you're
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SPEAKER_00: Your resume is ridiculous.
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SPEAKER_00: You were the editor-in-chief of the Yale Law Review.
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SPEAKER_00: You clerked for Sandra Day O'Connor.
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SPEAKER_00: Your books have sold millions of copies.
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SPEAKER_00: Your podcast is hugely popular.
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SPEAKER_00: You've met Oprah, the Dalai Lama.
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SPEAKER_00: All these are gold stars.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love them all.
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SPEAKER_00: Do you appreciate them as they're happening?
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Do you feel successful?
7:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, so here's the thing.
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SPEAKER_01: So my father,
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SPEAKER_01: who's a very happy person in general,
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SPEAKER_01: one of the things,
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one of the mantras that he always repeated over and over to my
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sister and me,
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SPEAKER_01: and it's so true,
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SPEAKER_01: which is,
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SPEAKER_01: and it's one of my sort of like my 12
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you know my personal commandments of happiness is to enjoy the
8:06
process because the
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fact is if you enjoy the process you don't care as much about
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the outcome still you
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might really you might really want to have a positive outcome
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but if you enjoy the
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SPEAKER_01: process if it doesn't work out the way you want
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SPEAKER_01: It's
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so that book did not find its audience but I loved writing that
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book and I still
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remember it so fondly I think of things that I learned and that
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I read and that I
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insights that I got writing it I don't regret it at all because
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I enjoyed the
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process so much of course I was disappointed that it didn't
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find its audience but
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if I had written a book because somebody said like if you if
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you're like okay
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SPEAKER_01: Gretchen
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SPEAKER_01: You know,
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I'm not doing it for my own reasons I'm only doing it for the
9:25
outcome so then if I
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don't get the outcome right then I've got nothing whereas if
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you enjoy the process
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SPEAKER_01: you're like well I had the
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experience of doing it totally yeah so so because a lot I mean
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especially when you
9:37
do a lot of creative things some things work a lot of things
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don't work if you're
9:40
doing something that you enjoy well then you also you feel like
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you're gaining
9:43
something from it like you're learning something even things
9:45
that fail teach you
9:47
something whereas if you're forcing yourself to do something
9:49
just because you want
9:50
the outcome then it's so bitter if it doesn't go your way as it
9:54
so often doesn't
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SPEAKER_00: I've been doing after my corporate life,
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I've been pursuing standup comedy for 10 years and writing and
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things like that.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: And what I've learned is that the only,
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SPEAKER_00: the only reward you get is the answer to the question,
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SPEAKER_00: what would happen if I gave it my all?
10:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's, that has to be enough because there's nothing else.
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SPEAKER_00: Even if you get the dream gig,
10:16
SPEAKER_00: even if you're host the tonight show for five years,
10:19
SPEAKER_00: it's going to end.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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SPEAKER_00: And so the process has to be enough.
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SPEAKER_01: Well,
10:24
and I had that moment when I was thinking about like switching
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to writing and I
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SPEAKER_01: thought to myself,
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SPEAKER_01: well,
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SPEAKER_01: at this point,
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SPEAKER_01: I'd rather fail as a writer than succeed as a lawyer.
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SPEAKER_01: I have to give it a shot.
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SPEAKER_01: I have to succeed or fail.
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SPEAKER_01: I have to try because I don't want to be haunted by the feeling of like,
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SPEAKER_01: well,
10:40
SPEAKER_01: what if I had tried?
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SPEAKER_01: What if I had given it my all?
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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SPEAKER_01: What would have happened?
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SPEAKER_01: I didn't want to have that kind of regret.
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SPEAKER_01: That's a kind of regret.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: There's if only regret.
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SPEAKER_01: You don't want to have an if only
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SPEAKER_00: Well, it depends on which deathbed regret you're trying to minimize.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, for me it was, I don't wanna regret not having tried.
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SPEAKER_01: Not having tried, yes.
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SPEAKER_00: And so, and I'm being rewarded with that very thing.
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SPEAKER_00: And this conversation is evidence of that.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, you never know.
11:25
SPEAKER_00: You never know.
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SPEAKER_00: One of the things that resonated with me
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SPEAKER_00: was your rule in the Happiness Project, Be Gretchen.
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SPEAKER_00: Tell me more about Be Gretchen.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Well, feel free to substitute the name Paul for yourself.
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SPEAKER_00: I was not trying to be Gretchen, but the desire to be
11:45
Authentically oneself Fully and present On a daily basis It's
11:49
so hard Really
11:50
resonates Why is it so hard Do you think Of course I'm myself I
11:53
know myself I just
11:54
hang out with myself All day long But That could be
11:57
Self-reinforcing Echo chamber
12:00
SPEAKER_01: No because And I think it's hard Because there's There's this tension Um
12:06
SPEAKER_01: And it's funny,
12:07
SPEAKER_01: I have a little book that's coming out called Secrets of Adulthood,
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which is sort of like these little secrets of adulthood that
12:12
I've learned.
12:12
And one of the most important secrets of adulthood is that we
12:15
want to accept
12:15
SPEAKER_01: ourselves and also expect more from ourselves.
12:19
And that is a tension that can never be resolved and no one can
12:23
solve it for us.
12:24
Because if you like with you,
12:26
if you're like,
12:27
OK,
12:28
I'm going to get up and do stand up.
12:30
it probably was really uncomfortable at the beginning but you
12:33
were like I'm gonna
12:33
expect this of myself I'm gonna do this where for somebody else
12:36
it's like that's
12:37
just not within the natural bounds of their nature that's not
12:41
that would not be
12:42
that wouldn't fit them like to tell them oh well you ought to
12:46
do it it's like well
12:47
they have to figure out what how to push themselves outside
12:51
their comfort zone but
12:52
SPEAKER_01: also expect accept
12:56
The natural boundaries,
12:58
because we all have natural boundaries and natural limitations.
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SPEAKER_01: And I find it very annoying.
13:02
Sometimes I'll just say to somebody something like,
13:04
well,
13:04
that's not for me.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: And they'll be like, oh, but you could do it if you want it.
13:09
SPEAKER_01: But that's just not for me.
13:11
Just because you have the capacity to do something doesn't mean
13:13
it's something
13:14
SPEAKER_00: that's an expression of who you are.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: Right.
13:15
Like I remember somebody and I was talking about how there's
13:18
sort of an element of
13:19
sadness in being yourself and recognizing yourself because then
13:23
there's things that
13:23
SPEAKER_01: you are and then there are things that you aren't.
13:25
And so I had commented that I was sad that I was never the kind
13:29
of person who would
13:30
SPEAKER_01: go to a jazz club at midnight.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: And somebody said to me,
13:34
SPEAKER_01: but Gretchen,
13:34
SPEAKER_01: you live in New York City,
13:35
SPEAKER_01: you could totally go to a jazz club in New York at midnight.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: And I said, you don't understand my point.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: The thing is, I don't want to go to a jazz club at midnight.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: Do you want to go to a matinee at a jazz club?
13:46
SPEAKER_01: No, I don't want to do that either.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: And it's not for me.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: And there's nothing wrong with that.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
13:52
SPEAKER_01: Now, if I became interested in it, I could become a person.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: But I don't want to waste my time, you know,
14:02
feeling bad about all the things that I'm not okay but okay so
14:05
my sister just to my
14:06
sister my super fan sister Claire thank you Claire I appreciate
14:10
the enthusiasm for
14:11
sure uh she told me today that one of your uh one of your goals
14:15
for this year is to
14:16
is to know more about the New York Knicks operation Knicks
14:19
knowledge thank you
14:20
SPEAKER_01: Claire she's following my journey that's right so absolutely
14:25
Is that a genuine interest of yours or is that an attempt to be
14:29
closer to the people you love?
14:30
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that is a really interesting question.
14:32
So what I wanted to figure out was can you make yourself become
14:36
interested in something?
14:37
SPEAKER_01: Can you just decide by sheer force of will to take interest in something?
14:41
SPEAKER_01: And what I found is that it really does help
14:44
if there is somebody there who has an enthusiasm who can be
14:47
your guide and who's
14:48
like excited that you're excited and I have that my husband
14:50
Jamie like he loves the
14:52
Knicks he's so excited and he's and he's really excited that
14:55
I'm interested like so
14:57
SPEAKER_01: so it is absolutely
14:59
100% true that I have an on-ramp with him and I said to him and
15:04
so I'll go to him
15:05
and ask him questions like well when they talk about transition
15:08
what is that
15:09
because I thought is it to transition from the bench to being a
15:11
player or is it and
15:12
he's like no it's the transition from offense to defense I'm
15:14
like okay because
15:15
sometimes listening to the commentators I'm like what are they
15:18
even taught I can't
15:19
SPEAKER_01: there's so much
15:20
There's so much vocabulary that I don't understand but I love a
15:23
steep learning
15:24
curve so for me it's really fun like I just read an article in
15:27
the paper today
15:27
about you know Thibodeau and Carl Anthony Towns and how are
15:32
they getting along and
15:32
I'm like I actually have a view of Carl Anthony Towns and so it
15:38
is really really
15:40
fun and one of the things that's great about sports just
15:42
generally sort of from a
15:43
SPEAKER_01: happiness perspective sports is a great thing because a lot of people are
15:46
SPEAKER_01: interested in it and so it allows you to have
15:50
Genial small talk with a stranger in a way that you feel like
15:54
you're sort of
15:54
SPEAKER_01: connecting,
15:55
SPEAKER_01: but it's easy,
15:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
15:57
SPEAKER_01: and people sometimes dismiss small talk as insignificant,
15:59
SPEAKER_01: but you can't have you can't have deep talk until you have small talk.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we just need to show that our friendliness to somebody.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:06
And by the way I mean I don't know about other teams I'd be
16:10
curious to know But if
16:12
you go to Madison Square Garden The New York City spirit there
16:15
Is so high It brings
16:16
all of New York City together It's just like a super New Yorker
16:20
It's New Yorker
16:21
SPEAKER_01: nowhere Like New York forever And I love that I mean I'm from Kansas
16:25
I love Kansas City Missouri love New York City and there really
16:29
is something so
16:30
just exciting and really uplifting and just like makes you feel
16:35
love of humanity
16:36
I'd love to see Gretchen Rubin rolling up on some dude on the
16:38
subway with a post
16:40
So you can be yourself while exploring new interests that
16:41
aren't necessarily innate in you.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, core.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
16:55
yeah could i from a standing stop get interested in cricket
16:58
with nobody in my life
16:59
i i don't know i think maybe i could i think if you because the
17:03
more we know the
17:04
more we notice and with more knowledge we have more curiosity
17:07
and i think once you
17:08
start paying attention to something you tend to start having
17:11
views and opinions and
17:12
you want to know well what does everybody else think like i'm
17:13
like what's up with
17:14
SPEAKER_01: like speaking of carl anthony towns i'm like that guy lumbers
17:18
SPEAKER_01: Like,
17:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:18
SPEAKER_01: you think of like someone like Tiger Woods and he's this elegant,
17:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:21
SPEAKER_01: usually great athletes look so effortless.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, that guy does not make it look effortless.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: And yet he's great.
17:27
SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, what do other people think of Carl Anthony Towns?
17:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, so the more you get into it, my son is a big soccer fan.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: And it's this it's a thing he's taken on the last three years.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: And so it's it is fun.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: I'll sit down and watch the games with him.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: When we were in Munich this summer, we went to the Bayern Munich Stadium.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: Just like
17:44
It gives you a reason to go someplace,
17:46
have an adventure with somebody,
17:48
share an experience.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's cool.
17:50
And that's one of the things that's exciting about other people
17:52
is if you can gain
17:54
SPEAKER_01: that kind of interest from them,
17:56
SPEAKER_01: then you feel like your own life has become enlarged.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not a huge sport.
18:01
I played sports as a kid,
18:03
but I've lost the passion for professional sports.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: I love golf,
18:06
but it's cool to sort of have some conversational flow and
18:10
watch him develop around
18:11
SPEAKER_00: that sport too.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: It's cool.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: And it's fun to share it.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: All right,
18:15
SPEAKER_00: I wanna stay on the Bea Gretchen thing and I'm gonna,
18:17
we'll come to Bea Paul and then we'll talk about what we talked
18:20
about prior.
18:22
One of the things I wrote down that I thought was really cool,
18:26
and where is this?
18:28
SPEAKER_00: It's about,
18:29
SPEAKER_00: oh,
18:29
whatever it is you admire in others is something that is
18:32
nascent in yourself that
18:33
SPEAKER_00: you have not yet brought into being.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: I didn't say that.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: I must have been quoting somebody.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: You wrote this in the Happiness Project.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: Now you might have been quoting somebody.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: I think I'm quoting.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: I'll go home and look it up.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't sound like my writing.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: But I think it's an interesting idea.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: Well, I pulled it from your book.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I didn't credit the quote.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: Anyway,
18:55
SPEAKER_00: what I thought was interesting about that is like,
18:57
SPEAKER_00: oh,
18:57
that's so we're looking out to other people to discover ways to
19:02
be ourselves.
19:03
exactly yes that's that's better put yeah well well now that
19:09
you did but then
19:09
there's also there's also young who said that said more or less
19:14
everything that
19:15
irritates us about others also reveals something about
19:18
ourselves so right now
19:19
that's part of how we understand ourselves is you know people
19:22
talk about social
19:22
comparison as if it's always bad but there's something really
19:25
helpful about social
19:26
comparison which is how we like how do you know you're funny
19:29
because you're like
19:30
SPEAKER_01: wow
19:31
People seem to think I'm funnier than other people Like Now you
19:36
know something
19:36
about yourself And that really is what it's about It's not
19:38
about being funny in the
19:39
SPEAKER_00: absolute It's about being better than the other person
19:43
Well I mean if you're gonna stand up and do it As Steve Martin
19:46
said at the Mark
19:46
Twain Award It's not about who's gotten this It's about who's
19:49
not gotten this award
19:51
Uh huh Yeah that's a very Mark Twain idea Well I just thought
19:55
that was interesting
19:55
I started to think about okay well who do I admire And
19:58
creatively I was thinking
19:59
SPEAKER_00: about Anthony Bourdain Are you a foodie?
20:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, I like food.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm not like a hugely adventurous foodie.
20:08
I did eat camel in Morocco over Christmas,
20:11
which may or may not have resulted in me.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: No, it was good.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: It was good.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: It may have resulted in me sleeping for the next three days.
20:18
But I was thinking like,
20:19
okay,
20:20
I wish I was a little cooler,
20:21
maybe a little less inhibited.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, I don't want the whole package that Bourdain was dealing with.
20:28
But there's elements of his personality that I'd like to,
20:31
I guess,
20:31
develop more in my own.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: Who do you admire now?
20:37
SPEAKER_01: Sister St. Therese Well, yeah, I was gonna that's a little obscure.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't gonna go there.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say Julia Child Okay,
20:44
SPEAKER_01: well,
20:44
what I love about Julia Child is that is like her enthusiasm
20:47
like she She was so
20:49
enthusiastic about French cooking that she carried the whole
20:52
book and kind of like
20:53
Anthony Burnett She carried the whole country with her just
20:55
because she was so
20:57
SPEAKER_01: enraptured with something that
21:00
SPEAKER_01: That everyone else began to feel it St.
21:04
Therese of Lisieux is my spiritual teacher and she is I'm not
21:09
even Catholic but
21:10
she's a doctor of the church which means she's not just a saint
21:14
she's a super saint
21:15
she's a super saint she died in her early 20s from tuberculosis
21:21
but she wrote this
21:22
memoir called Story of the Soul which I probably I mean I've
21:25
read it at least 15
21:26
SPEAKER_01: times I have this huge collection of biographies of her
21:30
Which is short She didn't live very long And yeah So I think a
21:35
lot I think about
21:36
SPEAKER_01: St.
21:36
Therese All the time She was very funny too Which you don't
21:39
think You don't think
21:40
that a saint Is going to be funny But she had a real sense of
21:42
humor So what If we
21:43
accept the quote That I read as true What aspects of her
21:47
personality Would you like
21:48
SPEAKER_00: to develop More on your own
21:50
Well her she's called the little flower which you just
21:52
mentioned and that's because
21:53
she considered herself a little flower so there are the great
21:56
roses and lilies but
21:57
she was a little flower like like a violet and so and her
22:03
greatness comes from her
22:05
ability to have great virtue in small things so she wasn't she
22:09
said she wanted to
22:09
SPEAKER_01: be a martyr she wanted to be a missionary but she wasn't
22:14
SPEAKER_01: So it's to do great things in kind of your ordinary life.
22:19
So she represents to me this idea of like just in your ordinary
22:22
life without
22:23
SPEAKER_01: spending a lot of time,
22:24
SPEAKER_01: energy or money,
22:25
SPEAKER_01: without doing something that seems extraordinary,
22:27
SPEAKER_01: you can really elevate through attention and love.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, don't you think that's kind of what you're doing with your work?
22:33
Well,
22:33
yeah,
22:34
no,
22:34
that's exactly why she speaks to me so much because I'm very
22:38
interested in that.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: You're not a bombastic person.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: Well,
22:40
but I'm also not like now take six months and go on a silent
22:43
meditation retreat or
22:44
SPEAKER_01: now do the Appalachian Trail.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: I love reading about people who do that.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: I think it's super fun and exciting, but it's not for me.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: It wouldn't suit me or my life.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: in chapter one of Bill Bryson's walk to the woods.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I'm going to walk the Appalachian trail.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: And by chapter three, I'm like, no way I'm ever going to do that.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: The thing I respected about Bill Bryson is here he is.
23:03
SPEAKER_01: He's writing a book about it.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: He's like, you know what?
23:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm just not going to finish.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, even a book contract could not get that guy to go all the way.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:11
okay be Gretchen now we were talking before we started taping
23:14
that one of the
23:15
things I found myself thinking in my early 40s as I was
23:18
considering career changes
23:19
is like I want to be I just want to be me I want to I want to
23:22
bring myself to
23:23
SPEAKER_00: everything that I do and
23:27
it led me to try to live a more creative life right when I said
23:31
that you you just
23:33
you wanted to profile me yeah yes I did I wanted to slot you
23:36
into a category put me
23:37
in a category yes okay okay so can I explain I'm gonna explain
23:41
the categories okay
23:42
So this is They say there are two categories of people The kind
23:46
of people who like
23:47
to divide people into categories And the kind of people who
23:49
don't I'm the kind of
23:50
SPEAKER_01: people who does So this divides people into upholders Questioners,
23:54
SPEAKER_01: obligers,
23:55
SPEAKER_01: and rebels The four tenets
23:57
The four ten these are the four tendencies and I'm gonna
23:59
describe them briefly and
24:01
You people can go online and take a very free quick quiz at
24:05
gretchenrubin.com slash
24:06
quiz Like three and a half million people have taken this quiz
24:09
and it will give you
24:10
SPEAKER_01: an answer and sort of a report
24:12
But I'm going to describe them It takes three minutes It takes
24:14
three minutes Okay,
24:14
SPEAKER_01: so you've done it Okay,
24:15
good We'll have to see if I peg you But I'll just describe them
24:20
And most people
24:21
know what they are They know what their friends and family and
24:23
coworkers are We
24:24
SPEAKER_01: could do the Game of Thrones characters We could do the Office characters
24:26
SPEAKER_01: Characters.
24:27
SPEAKER_01: These are very obvious once you know what you're looking for.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: So what it's looking at is this very narrow aspect of your nature,
24:34
SPEAKER_01: but it's a very significant aspect,
24:36
SPEAKER_01: which is how you respond to expectations.
24:38
So outer expectation,
24:40
and we all face two kinds,
24:41
outer and inner expectations.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: Outer expectations are things like a work deadline.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: Inner expectations are like your desire to keep a New Year's resolution,
24:49
SPEAKER_01: like getting back into meditation.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: So depending on whether you meet expectations or resist expectations,
24:57
SPEAKER_01: outer and inner,
24:57
SPEAKER_01: that's what makes you an upholder questioner blighter to rebel.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: So upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: So they keep the work deadline, they meet the New Year's
25:06
SPEAKER_01: Resolution without much fuss.
25:08
They can sometimes be rigid,
25:10
but they're very good at sort of self-starting.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: They don't need a lot of accountability or supervision.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: What other people expect from them is very important,
25:17
SPEAKER_01: but what they expect from themselves is just as important.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: So their motto is discipline is my freedom.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: That's my tendency.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm an aholder.
25:26
Then there are questioners questioners question all
25:29
expectations they'll do
25:30
something if they think it makes sense so they're always asking
25:33
for justifications
25:34
reasons um So they're turning everything into an inner
25:39
expectation because they'll
25:40
do it if it makes sense to them But they'll push back if it if
25:43
it doesn't make
25:43
SPEAKER_01: sense so they resist anything arbitrary um
25:47
they have to know why um and sometimes they can even fall into
25:51
analysis paralysis
25:53
because it's hard for them to move forward if they don't have
25:55
perfect information
25:56
and a lot of times we don't have perfect information so they're
25:59
all the time not
26:00
SPEAKER_01: all the time so their their motto is i'll comply if you convince me why
26:05
Then there are obligers This is the biggest tendency For both
26:08
men and women You
26:09
either are an obliger Or you have many obligers in your life
26:12
Obligers readily meet
26:13
outer expectations But they struggle to meet inner expectations
26:16
So these are the
26:16
SPEAKER_01: people who say Why is it that I never Let down anybody at work
26:21
but but I let down myself I keep my promises to everybody else
26:24
but I can't keep my
26:25
promises to myself so what they're doing is there if they will
26:28
meet an outer
26:29
expectation but they struggle to meet inner expectations so the
26:32
answer for them is
26:33
outer accountability they have to have outer accountability
26:36
even to meet an inner
26:36
expectation you want to work out more you have to work out with
26:40
a trainer or take a
26:41
class or think about how disappointed your dog will be if she
26:44
doesn't get to go for
26:45
SPEAKER_01: a run or you raise money for a charity or whatever it is
26:49
SPEAKER_01: And they're great leaders,
26:51
SPEAKER_01: followers,
26:52
SPEAKER_01: friends,
26:52
SPEAKER_01: family members,
26:53
SPEAKER_01: because they're the people that are most likely to go the extra mile,
26:55
SPEAKER_01: but they really have trouble managing themselves.
26:58
So their motto is you can count on me and I'm counting on you
27:02
to count on me.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: And then finally, rebels.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: Rebel is the smallest tendency.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: It's a conspicuous tendency, but it's a small tendency.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: An upholder is only slightly larger than upholders.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: Most people are obligers or questioners.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: So rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: They can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do.
27:25
But if you ask or tell them to do something,
27:28
they're very likely to resist.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: And typically they don't tell themselves what to do.
27:31
Like they don't sign up for a 10 a.m.
27:33
woodworking class on Saturday because they think...
27:36
I don't know what I'm going to want to do on Saturday and the
27:38
fact that somebody's
27:39
expecting me to show up is just going to annoy me so their
27:42
motto is you can't make
27:45
me and neither can I oh yeah yeah so so when you said that
27:51
about your experience of
27:52
Facebook it made me wonder about your tendency but you didn't
27:56
say enough for me to
27:58
SPEAKER_01: try to do a flash diagnosis so can I ask if you follow up absolutely okay
28:04
SPEAKER_01: And try to answer well you've taken the quiz so but anyway try to answer
28:09
authentically you and I are in a coffee shop and we're in the
28:14
back there's nobody
28:15
there there's like the the the wait services in the front and
28:19
and so we've got the
28:20
place to ourselves and there's a big sign right next to us that
28:23
says absolutely no
28:25
cell phone use and I pull out my cell phone and start using it
28:29
how do you feel
28:30
SPEAKER_01: about what I'm doing
28:33
I'm uncomfortable why are you uncomfortable because you are
28:39
breaking a social norm
28:42
you're not bringing a social well in that environment you're
28:44
breaking a social norm
28:45
and I puts me in the position of either having to correct you
28:49
or ignore it okay all
28:51
SPEAKER_01: right um that narrows it down somewhat um
28:59
SPEAKER_01: What would the next question be?
29:01
SPEAKER_01: Do you find that it's,
29:03
SPEAKER_01: if you're trying to get something done,
29:05
does it really help you to have someone else counting on you or
29:08
it doesn't really
29:08
SPEAKER_01: matter to you if someone else is counting on you?
29:10
I think I respond to direction and to outer accountability
29:15
sometimes,
29:16
yes.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I'm thinking that you're an obliger.
29:20
SPEAKER_00: You know,
29:20
SPEAKER_00: as you described it,
29:21
SPEAKER_00: I would have maybe put myself in that category,
29:25
SPEAKER_00: but from your online quiz,
29:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm a rebel.
29:28
Well see that's interesting because obligers and rebels they
29:31
overlap so they have a
29:32
lot in common um that's that Venn diagram yeah it's a Venn
29:35
diagram so obligers and
29:37
rebels they overlap so um and it can be sometimes hard but um
29:44
when you were at
29:46
Facebook how did you feel about all the rules well it was it
29:55
was a place where
29:56
SPEAKER_00: rules were emerging
29:58
SPEAKER_00: because it was a very young company that was growing extremely quickly.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: Oh, interesting.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: And so there was a great deal of office politics.
30:07
As processes were put into place,
30:10
these were new things we had to deal with and adapt.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: And did you find- I'm sorry to interrupt, but there were cultural
30:17
Norms that emanated from the youth of the company and what I
30:22
mean we had a 22 year
30:24
old founder yeah and the engineers sort of set the culture
30:29
which grew outward and I
30:30
was on the sales team and I was of a different generation so
30:34
there was a palpable
30:37
SPEAKER_00: sense of not necessarily being in the core group there mm-hmm
30:43
I don't know if that makes any that has any relevance to that
30:46
to this quiz but not
30:47
to this quiz I'm just trying to figure out I think you're
30:50
probably an obliger
30:52
partly because the obliger is a very large category and rebels
30:55
a very small
30:56
category and so that's just statistically more like Anthony
30:58
Bourdain but but and
31:00
also I think if you were a rebel you would know you were a
31:03
rebel like I'll tell you
31:04
SPEAKER_01: like I asked I have a I know somebody who works at Meta now who
31:08
Who's a rebel and I said how do you deal with all the rules now
31:11
of course he's
31:12
there now so it's completely solidified in a way that yeah yeah
31:15
it's not at all
31:15
because you were so there so early but he said but I mean
31:19
that's a question how
31:19
does a rebel because often rebels interestingly do really well
31:22
in the military the
31:23
police and the clergy which you would think is surprising and
31:27
he said I said so how
31:28
SPEAKER_01: do you do it and he goes well the thing of it is
31:31
I want to start my own company so I'm here learning I'm working
31:36
for them but
31:36
they're teaching me I'm getting everything I want I'm getting
31:41
this education for
31:42
SPEAKER_01: free I'm taking notes and then when I start my own thing it'll be a big
31:47
I'll be a big success and so he saw it as like you're working
31:50
for me right and
31:51
paying me like I'm getting this great training so that's how he
31:54
did his rebel but
31:54
you were there at an early time so it's kind of hard because
31:57
because that might be
31:57
really fun sometimes rebels are are attracted to kind of
32:00
emergent situations like
32:01
that because it's like there are no rules and so they feel it's
32:05
very unconstrained
32:06
and then once something like becomes more constrained than they
32:09
then they feel
32:10
cramped by that which is why I thought that which is why I
32:13
asked that question of
32:13
SPEAKER_01: you it was relatively chaotic
32:16
SPEAKER_01: So that might appeal to a rebel.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:19
SPEAKER_00: I like order.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: I think you're an obliger.
32:22
And by the way,
32:23
sometimes people think they don't like all these tendencies.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: Some people are like, well, I don't want to be that.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: I want to be another one.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: So many of the most hugely successful people are obligers.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: Tiger Woods is an obliger.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: Oprah is an obliger.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: Andre Agassi is obliger.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking of all these sports people.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: Diana was an obliger.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: Let's break down the New York Knicks.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: Where are they?
32:41
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I don't know.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: They don't talk enough.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: You should put them through all that.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: Well, I will tell you who is one.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: That'd be a great article for the Times.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: But the fact is, it's really hard.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, I've been trying to figure out Barack Obama.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: But you can't look at what someone does to know their tendency.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: You have to understand what they're thinking.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: And so you have to have insight into their thought process.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: And so if they're like Andre Agassi wrote a memoir open,
33:05
SPEAKER_01: which is an amazing memoir,
33:06
SPEAKER_01: and he's textbook obliger.
33:08
I could literally like have a checklist and be like,
33:11
check,
33:11
check,
33:11
check,
33:12
check,
33:12
check.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: But if people are more cagey,
33:16
SPEAKER_01: like Barack Obama I think is cagey,
33:19
SPEAKER_01: or if there's just not that much,
33:20
SPEAKER_01: like the Knicks just don't give,
33:22
like they're not giving hour-long interviews into their inner
33:26
psychic process or
33:28
SPEAKER_01: writing huge memoirs.
33:29
SPEAKER_01: So I don't have access to the way that they think.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: And also for a lot of celebrities, they're giving us a very,
33:35
They're not being They might not be It's a skewed version It's
33:37
a skewed version
33:38
It's a version that they That they want to It took me forever I
33:41
had to read like I
33:42
mean a dozen biographies and interviews and things about Diana
33:45
to get a sense and
33:46
SPEAKER_01: then I really felt confident okay this is an obliger but um uh
33:52
But then something like Game of Thrones,
33:54
it's so obvious what almost every character is.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: It's hilarious to me.
33:59
And also what's interesting about Game of Thrones is like with
34:02
all of these
34:03
SPEAKER_01: tendencies,
34:05
SPEAKER_01: it can look good or it can look bad.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: There's the good and bad version of either.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: And what's interesting in Game of Thrones is like
34:11
You Have Good And Bad Versions Like Cersei Is A Rebel And Arya
34:16
Is A Rebel And Even
34:18
Arya I Don't Know If You Know Game Of Thrones I Watch Every
34:21
Episode But Cersei's
34:25
Father Literally Says To Arya You Remind Me Of My Daughter
34:29
Because They're Both
34:29
Rebels But One Is You Know We Would Say Is A Good Expression
34:35
And One Is A Negative
34:35
SPEAKER_01: Expression
34:36
but they're both rebels given all the I interviewed Kim Scott
34:40
she's an old friend
34:41
of mine she really yes we work together she's fantastic she is
34:46
um she's do you know
34:48
that she wears an orange sweater and jeans and boots or running
34:51
shoes at all times
34:52
I did not know that I know her tendency for sure can you she's
34:56
a rebel she's one of
34:57
SPEAKER_01: my OG rebels yes
34:59
SPEAKER_01: Well,
34:59
so all these different personalities and the organizations
35:03
where a lot of us work
35:04
SPEAKER_00: or worked beg the question,
35:07
SPEAKER_00: can you bring your whole self to work?
35:12
SPEAKER_01: Well, there's so many layers to that.
35:16
I would say no,
35:18
I don't think we would want to bring our whole selves to work.
35:21
So we're wearing masks then at some,
35:23
or we're suppressing some parts of ourselves?
35:25
SPEAKER_01: No, it's just like not everything is appropriate for all audiences.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: I don't think that there's anything.
35:34
So if you're of a personality type that doesn't necessarily fit
35:38
with the environment you're in,
35:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's something different.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: That's something different.
35:44
SPEAKER_01: I thought you meant by bring your whole self to work.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: Like, are you disclosing everything?
35:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm talking about my personal life,
35:48
SPEAKER_01: my,
35:48
SPEAKER_01: like my feelings about my parents,
35:50
SPEAKER_01: like my religion,
35:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
35:52
SPEAKER_01: my religious beliefs,
35:53
SPEAKER_01: like,
35:53
SPEAKER_01: like,
35:53
SPEAKER_01: let's let it all hang out.
35:55
It's a relevant question in an increasingly politicized
35:58
workplace over the last
36:00
SPEAKER_00: five to 10 years to say,
36:01
SPEAKER_00: and I'm not,
36:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying to make this a political conversation.
36:03
I'm just saying like,
36:05
to what degree to having to keep your mouth shut at work
36:10
SPEAKER_00: leads to unhappiness.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think there's just politeness and there's also privacy.
36:16
It's a lot to handle if somebody is just dropping big
36:21
disclosures from their life
36:22
SPEAKER_01: and then you have to manage that.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: I think this is not something that I think about a lot.
36:26
So I don't want to get over my skis here because that's not the
36:29
way that I think about it.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: I think that there's a lot of...
36:35
I think just politeness dictates that there's some things that
36:38
we just don't expect
36:39
SPEAKER_01: other people to talk about.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: Or that it's not appropriate for why we're coming together.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think what those topics are is open to question.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of people who are religious,
36:55
SPEAKER_00: for example,
36:55
SPEAKER_00: and that's a huge part of their identity who haven't felt comfortable
36:59
you know being that person in the workplace in the last few
37:02
years and again not to
37:04
make it here's the reason why I ask because you talk about
37:09
basically faking it till
37:10
you make it to it to adapt happiness practices to smile even
37:16
when you don't feel
37:16
SPEAKER_01: happy that's the psychological principle that we think that
37:22
Actions follow feelings but to a great degree feelings follow
37:25
actions and so that
37:26
if you want to change your emotional state it's often it's by
37:30
by by changing your
37:31
conscious thoughts and actions that's often a good way to get
37:34
into your emotional
37:35
state so if you're feeling Tired if you act with energy you're
37:39
gonna start to feel
37:40
more energetic or if you're feeling shy if you act you push
37:43
yourself to act
37:44
SPEAKER_01: friendly you'll feel more friendly um
37:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's fake until you feel it.
37:49
That's not like be inauthentic and present a totally imposter
37:52
false sense to the
37:53
SPEAKER_01: world and then that somehow will become your truth.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: That's more about when people want to change their own emotional state,
38:00
SPEAKER_01: when they're like,
38:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to feel this way.
38:03
It's like,
38:03
okay,
38:03
I have to stand up in front of an audience and I don't feel
38:07
like doing it.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, well, stand up straighter, act with more energy.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: Command the room.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: Like that's going to help you feel more.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: That requires a great degree of self-awareness and willpower.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: Back to our original thing.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: Self-awareness, self-knowledge.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: It's the great, it's so hard.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:26
Now,
38:26
so if I read studies that say that religious people are happier
38:32
and live longer.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's very mixed.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: Should I choose to be religious?
38:35
SPEAKER_01: That's very mixed.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: Oh, so that data isn't clear.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, it depends on the religion.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: It depends on the beliefs.
38:39
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot going on in that.
38:41
Okay,
38:41
so I should pick the religion that lives the longest and makes
38:45
people happiest.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't think most people choose religion for those purposes.
38:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, Pascal had Pascal's wager, right?
38:54
Where he basically said,
38:55
I choose to believe in God because the math says I should,
38:58
right?
38:59
Because the pain of hell is an incalculably large cost that I
39:03
would have to pay.
39:04
SPEAKER_00: So I choose to believe in God.
39:05
SPEAKER_00: Can you choose a belief because you think it will make you happier?
39:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, now we're going into like deep faith.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: And that's again, like, I mean, I, you know.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: What would St. Therese do?
39:18
SPEAKER_01: Well,
39:18
SPEAKER_01: that's one of the things,
39:19
SPEAKER_01: if this is an interesting question to you,
39:21
SPEAKER_01: I commend to you Story of a Soul,
39:23
SPEAKER_01: her spiritual memoir,
39:24
SPEAKER_01: because she gets way,
39:26
SPEAKER_01: way,
39:26
SPEAKER_01: way deep into these matters of belief,
39:29
SPEAKER_01: disbelief,
39:30
SPEAKER_01: loss of faith.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: What does it mean?
39:35
What does it truly mean to be an object of God's love in a way
39:41
that is very unusual?
39:43
so it will blow your mind it's not for everyone right I'm just
39:47
saying but it's a
39:49
it's a fascinating and beautiful book but she I mean she's a
39:53
you know she's a
39:54
doctor of the church she's coming at it from a very different
39:56
angle for me she's an
39:57
SPEAKER_00: OG right yeah yeah yeah yeah
39:59
SPEAKER_00: Okay, something you do have experience with.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: We all have experience with it on some level,
40:03
SPEAKER_00: but you actually had lunch with Daniel Kahneman,
40:06
SPEAKER_00: the late,
40:07
SPEAKER_00: great Daniel Kahneman,
40:08
SPEAKER_00: who was co-authored a paper,
40:09
SPEAKER_00: and I interviewed the other co-author,
40:12
SPEAKER_00: Syringus Deaton,
40:13
SPEAKER_00: a very famous work about money and happiness.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: And for a quick summary,
40:18
they found back in 2010 that there was no additional happiness
40:22
after $75,000 a
40:23
SPEAKER_00: year.
40:23
SPEAKER_00: No, that's not...
40:24
SPEAKER_00: It's been debunked.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it has been.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: But can I just say... By Killingsworth, please.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: We don't need a study to tell us that that is not true.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: Great.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: Let's hear it.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: We know that that is not true.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: What do you mean?
40:36
SPEAKER_01: We know that it is preposterous to say that it's $75,000.
40:41
There's absolutely no difference because people are different
40:44
and people's demands
40:45
SPEAKER_01: are different and people's lives are different.
40:46
SPEAKER_01: Some people have eight children.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: Some people have no children.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: Some people have health problems.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: Some people don't.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: Some people live in New York City.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: Some people live in, you know, I mean, it's just...
40:57
that's just that's just that I just looked at that and I was
41:00
like this is gonna be
41:01
debunked because that's just not true that just that that that
41:05
that that it you
41:08
just can't say that I mean what do you think the connection
41:10
between money and hat
41:11
is there a linear correlation or is there it's not it's not
41:14
linear but there is a
41:15
SPEAKER_01: correlation and more but but also the thing to remember is like
41:20
Money May Not Buy Happiness But It Buys Many Things That Do
41:24
Contribute Mightily To
41:25
Happiness Or Eliminate Unhappiness Exactly Right A Lot Of It
41:29
And That's An
41:30
Excellent Point In Some Ways Money Is Like Health Where If You
41:34
Have It You Never
41:34
SPEAKER_01: Think About It
41:35
SPEAKER_01: But if you don't have it, it's really going to pull you down.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: You're thinking about it before you brush your teeth.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: So the lack of it will pull you down very much.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: But having it is very easy to take it for granted.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: But also money buys things like control.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: And when we look at what makes people happy.
41:50
Control over your time for instance right like not having to
41:54
get on a bus at 805
41:56
every day and if you're one minute late You're gonna be late to
41:58
work and you're
41:58
gonna get you know it's having control so money buys control
42:02
money allows us to
42:04
Support the people and causes that we believe in it allows us
42:07
to like at work on
42:08
our health By like going to the doctor belonging to a gym
42:13
buying buying healthier
42:14
SPEAKER_01: food It it lets us
42:19
you know and then also it's another thing that people talk
42:21
about a lot is the
42:23
difference between experiences and things and they're like oh
42:26
for happiness invest
42:27
in experiences not things okay but the diff the line between
42:32
experiences and things
42:33
is often very blurry so like is a dog an experience or a thing
42:36
is buying is buying
42:38
SPEAKER_01: a pair of skis
42:41
SPEAKER_01: Is that an experience or a thing?
42:42
SPEAKER_01: My sister bought a dining room table.
42:43
She was so happy when she finally made enough money that she
42:45
could buy a dining room table.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: Now,
42:46
SPEAKER_01: it wasn't that the dining room table,
42:48
SPEAKER_01: but she's super social,
42:49
SPEAKER_01: and she's like,
42:49
SPEAKER_01: now I can have people over for dinner.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: Is that an experience or a thing?
42:53
SPEAKER_01: And buying podcast equipment, right?
42:57
SPEAKER_01: It's a thing, but it's also an experience.
42:59
And so there's definitely things that people can spend their
43:02
money on that will not
43:04
SPEAKER_01: make them happier or will actually add to their unhappiness.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: Like what?
43:08
SPEAKER_01: High-stakes gambling or cocaine, right?
43:11
SPEAKER_01: But then there's things where it probably will make you happier.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: Relationships are probably the key to happiness.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: So let's say you're thinking,
43:19
SPEAKER_01: should I spend the money and fly across the country to visit my sibling?
43:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's probably gonna make you happier.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: Should I spring to go to my college reunion?
43:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's probably gonna make you happier.
43:30
SPEAKER_01: So I think money spent wisely can do a lot to make us happier.
43:36
SPEAKER_01: And one of the most precious things that money can buy,
43:39
SPEAKER_01: as you pointed out,
43:40
SPEAKER_01: is the freedom from having to worry about money.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: So that's something money buys.
43:45
But that's not to say that people don't make foolish choices
43:50
that ultimately
43:52
SPEAKER_01: Contribute to their unhappiness.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: But I think it calls into question too,
43:56
SPEAKER_00: it's people throw money at their definition of happiness.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: And that might be, they think it's some gold Rolex or it's a big...
44:05
SPEAKER_01: So here's the thing, do you think people do that that much?
44:08
SPEAKER_01: People are always talking about people doing that.
44:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, they don't do it.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: You mean consciously do it?
44:15
Yeah,
44:15
I mean,
44:16
I think these things represent something else to the person
44:19
doing them.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: Well,
44:20
SPEAKER_00: they buy it because I think whether they're conscious of it or not,
44:24
they're buying something because they think it's going to put
44:27
them in a position of
44:28
SPEAKER_00: higher status,
44:29
SPEAKER_00: which will equal some degree of happiness.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: Well, status does make people happier.
44:33
SPEAKER_01: That's true.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: It does.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:35
SPEAKER_00: Until they realize that, you know, having a Rolex and nothing in the bank
44:39
SPEAKER_00: is just a perpetuation of that.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's a foolish choice.
44:42
SPEAKER_00: Of that financial instability that really is the source of so much pain.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: Right.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: That's a foolish choice.
44:47
So what I'm wondering is if you had to think about happiness as
44:52
a spectrum of
44:53
SPEAKER_00: different ideas,
44:55
SPEAKER_00: like the thesaurus of happiness from jubilation to contentment,
45:02
and I'm asking the woman who defines happiness as reading in
45:04
bed at night,
45:05
SPEAKER_00: which is the coziest thing in the world,
45:07
SPEAKER_00: right?
45:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:08
How would you encourage people to think about what money can
45:13
attain for them
45:14
SPEAKER_00: happiness-wise and what it can't?
45:18
SPEAKER_01: It can be really confusing to think about happiness,
45:20
SPEAKER_01: I think,
45:21
SPEAKER_01: because everything feels jumbled up with everything else.
45:24
So here's a way that I think makes it clear to even think about
45:27
how to think about it.
45:28
SPEAKER_01: And then you can sort of slot money into that.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: So I think that if you're thinking about how to make your life happier,
45:33
SPEAKER_01: you should think about feeling good,
45:35
SPEAKER_01: feeling bad,
45:36
SPEAKER_01: and feeling right in an atmosphere of growth.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: So you want to think about feeling good.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: So you want all the things that are good, like enthusiasm, friendship,
45:48
physical health energy you're like I want more of those things
45:52
then you want to
45:53
think of the things that make you feel bad so that's envy anger
45:56
resentment boredom
45:58
frustration so you're like how can I have less of that then
46:01
there's feeling right
46:02
so feeling right is the is the feeling that you get when your
46:05
life reflects your
46:05
values and the fact is sometimes we do things that make us feel
46:08
right that don't
46:09
make us feel good so like maybe you're going to the hospital to
46:12
visit your father
46:13
SPEAKER_01: who you were never close to and don't really enjoy and
46:17
SPEAKER_01: And so you don't look forward to it.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: You don't enjoy it when you're there.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: You dread going again.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: And you're like, but he's still my father.
46:26
SPEAKER_01: And the right thing to do is to go visit him in the hospital.
46:28
SPEAKER_01: That's because you're living up to your value.
46:31
So or like one of the things people often say in the happiness
46:34
and money research
46:35
SPEAKER_01: is they're like,
46:36
SPEAKER_01: look at all these people.
46:38
SPEAKER_01: Everybody knows that a commute really will drag you down in happiness.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: You never adjust to a commute,
46:42
SPEAKER_01: but all these people,
46:44
SPEAKER_01: silly them,
46:45
SPEAKER_01: they live far out of town and they have these long commutes.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: And why did they do that?
46:49
SPEAKER_01: That was before podcasting.
46:50
No,
46:50
no,
46:51
no,
46:51
because they have these big fancy houses because they want to
46:53
impress their friends.
46:54
No,
46:55
those people live out there because they want a certain life
46:57
for their children.
46:58
SPEAKER_01: They want the right school district.
46:59
SPEAKER_01: They want to have a backyard.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: And so they say, I know I'm not going to enjoy that commute.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: It's going to make me feel bad to have that long commute,
47:06
but it's going to make me feel right because this is the kind
47:09
of parent that
47:09
SPEAKER_01: that I want to be.
47:10
SPEAKER_01: This is the kind of values that I uphold.
47:12
SPEAKER_01: Now,
47:12
SPEAKER_01: you could say that's the wrong decision to make,
47:14
SPEAKER_01: but that's the thinking,
47:15
SPEAKER_01: I think,
47:15
SPEAKER_01: for a lot of people in that situation.
47:17
So there's feeling good,
47:17
feeling bad,
47:18
and feeling right,
47:18
and then an atmosphere of growth.
47:20
SPEAKER_01: An atmosphere of growth is the feeling,
47:22
SPEAKER_01: and I think this might have been what you were feeling at Facebook,
47:24
SPEAKER_01: which is,
47:25
you want to feel like you're growing we want to feel like we're
47:28
making progress
47:29
we're fixing things we're learning things we're gaining skills
47:32
we're putting
47:33
something into the world maybe teaching and so sometimes even
47:38
when you're feeling
47:38
SPEAKER_01: really bad you can still have an atmosphere of
47:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm
47:55
Energizing but we're just happier when we feel like we're
47:57
growing so then you think
47:58
okay feeling good feeling bad feeling right and atmosphere
48:01
growth how could I plug
48:02
money into that okay well so feeling good it's like you know
48:04
what I really love my
48:05
college friends but we never get together so you know what I'm
48:08
gonna say this year
48:09
I'm gonna spend the money I'm gonna go to visit each one of
48:11
them in three different
48:11
cities so I'm spending my money to feel good through
48:14
relationship feeling bad it's
48:16
SPEAKER_01: like gosh one thing that is just so incredibly boring to me is to
48:23
Clean my house every week So I'm going to use money I'm going
48:24
to have a house
48:25
SPEAKER_01: cleaner Come once a week And that's going to save me Totally Yeah
48:29
then source the drudgery then feeling right it's like I'm gonna
48:32
give money I really
48:33
believe that voter registration is an incredibly important
48:36
thing I'm gonna find
48:37
three organizations that are attacking voter you know that are
48:40
tackling voter
48:40
registration in three different ways I'm gonna give money to
48:42
each of them because I
48:44
want to support this cause or my niece is really struggling and
48:49
my my sister can't
48:50
pay for a tutor so I'm gonna pay for the tutor because this
48:53
would really help her
48:53
SPEAKER_01: in her school so I'm gonna like
48:56
Fix That For Them And Then An Atmosphere Of Growth Maybe Maybe
48:59
It's Like Maybe I'll
49:00
Get Some Podcasting Equipment And Start A Podcast Or Like I'm
49:03
Trying To Learn How
49:04
To Watercolor So I Bought You Know I Went To The Art Supply
49:07
Store And Bought My Art
49:08
SPEAKER_01: Supplies And Because
49:11
SPEAKER_01: Or Operation Mixed Knowledge How can I have an atmosphere of growth?
49:16
This is one of the reasons that parenthood makes people happier
49:19
We see that our
49:19
SPEAKER_01: children are growing and we're contributing to that We're teaching,
49:23
SPEAKER_01: we're protecting We see them growing,
49:25
SPEAKER_01: we're growing with them
49:26
Just like now you're interested in the soccer team because your
49:28
son was interested
49:29
SPEAKER_01: in the soccer team.
49:30
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
49:31
So how would I spend my money that would contribute to an
49:33
atmosphere of growth?
49:34
So that's how I would plug it in to if I'm like,
49:36
how can I use money to make my life happier?
49:39
SPEAKER_01: But you could do the same thing.
49:40
SPEAKER_01: Like, how can I use relationships to make my life happier?
49:42
SPEAKER_01: How could I use physical health to make my life happier?
49:46
SPEAKER_01: You could do that in a lot of different ways.
49:49
SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
49:49
SPEAKER_00: Happiness is growth is one of the things I underlined.
49:52
SPEAKER_00: Oh, good.
49:52
SPEAKER_00: Put a bunch of exclamation points.
49:53
SPEAKER_00: Oh, we're running out of time.
49:55
SPEAKER_00: This has been so much fun.
49:55
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for doing it.
49:56
SPEAKER_00: I have a few other things to talk about.
49:59
SPEAKER_00: One, a question for my sister, Claire.
50:01
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for bringing Claire.
50:04
SPEAKER_00: What haven't you done that you would like to do?
50:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I want to get over my fear of driving.
50:09
SPEAKER_01: I know how to drive, but I'm a very fearful driver.
50:11
SPEAKER_01: You're from Kansas!
50:12
SPEAKER_01: I know, I am.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: I know, I am.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: But now I live in New York City,
50:15
SPEAKER_01: and I don't drive that much,
50:16
SPEAKER_01: and I've always been kind of a fearful driver,
50:18
SPEAKER_01: and the less you drive,
50:19
SPEAKER_01: like,
50:19
SPEAKER_01: the more...
50:22
SPEAKER_01: My wife is the same way.
50:23
SPEAKER_00: Really?
50:24
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
50:25
SPEAKER_00: We have a car in the city and she hasn't driven it yet.
50:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, New York City is scary driving.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: It's like a video game.
50:31
SPEAKER_01: I know.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: But the traffic, I don't know.
50:33
But I have made a couple of attempts of this as an adult to get
50:37
over this fear and
50:38
SPEAKER_01: I really would like to become less fearful of a driver.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
50:43
SPEAKER_00: You share so much of your life in your writing and in your podcasting.
50:47
Is there a limit to how much you'll share or have you had any
50:53
negative experiences
50:54
SPEAKER_00: from people knowing too much about you?
50:56
you know Anne Lamott who's a writer who I love she said like it
51:00
you tell the truth
51:00
but you don't tell all the truth like people don't know what
51:03
they don't know so I
51:04
feel very comfortable about it yeah uh yeah I feel very I feel
51:09
um yeah I feel very
51:11
I I've never I've never felt like there's something that came
51:13
out that made me feel
51:14
SPEAKER_01: uncomfortable
51:15
All right,
51:16
now I had four happiness quotes that I wanted to share and get
51:19
your opinion.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: The fourth one was happiness is growth because I think it's so apt.
51:24
SPEAKER_00: This is the first one.
51:25
The art of being happy lies in the power of extracting
51:29
happiness from common things.
51:31
SPEAKER_00: And that is Henry Ward Beecher.
51:32
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
51:34
yeah no I think that's true like getting finding happiness in
51:36
our everyday lives is
51:37
really important not expecting some you know special vacation
51:41
or extraordinary
51:42
event to make us happier but to look for it reasonably happy on
51:45
a daily basis yes
51:46
there you go reasonably nice yes I should have gotten there
51:50
myself this is
51:51
Aeschylus happiness is a choice that requires effort at times
51:55
oh for sure yes
51:57
SPEAKER_00: I'd never heard the second part of it that requires effort at times.
52:00
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's an important caveat.
52:02
That's the part I like the best because it always confuses me
52:05
when people say that
52:05
SPEAKER_01: happiness is a choice.
52:07
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
52:07
SPEAKER_01: I just don't understand what they mean by that.
52:10
SPEAKER_01: Clearly for people, it's very
52:11
Meaningful Because People Say That To Me I I Just Sort Of
52:15
Doesn't Make Sense But
52:16
This Idea That It Requires Effort That You Would Do Things
52:19
Deliberately Thinking
52:21
This Is Gonna Make Me This Is Gonna Make Me I'm Gonna Tackle
52:24
Feeling Good Feeling
52:25
Bad Feeling Right In An Atmosphere Growth By Doing Things With
52:27
My Conscious
52:28
Thoughts And Actions That I Completely That's Your Whole Thing
52:30
That's My Whole
52:31
SPEAKER_01: Thing So I Think It Does It Does Take Effort Right Yeah
52:34
Happiness is not a goal It is a byproduct Attributed to Eleanor
52:38
Roosevelt A million
52:39
people have said this John Stuart Mill said something I really
52:43
object to this Oh
52:44
good No because they say I have like 10 different people saying
52:48
it And I'm like Me
52:49
or John Stuart Mill I think I'm right But when people say
52:56
things like that And I
52:56
SPEAKER_01: say to them What do you think you're aiming for?
53:01
SPEAKER_01: What is it a byproduct of?
53:02
SPEAKER_01: They're like
53:03
I want to live a life of meaning and engaging with other people
53:08
and just having
53:09
SPEAKER_01: gratitude for every day.
53:11
And I'm like,
53:12
what do you think it would look like to try to have a
53:15
deliberately happy life?
53:16
SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing.
53:17
SPEAKER_01: I think that often
53:23
The thing that people say it's a byproduct of are the very
53:25
things that people would
53:26
SPEAKER_01: do to make their lives happier.
53:27
SPEAKER_01: So I don't see that as being a big distinction.
53:29
SPEAKER_00: If you chose a synonym of happy to replace there, blank is not the goal.
53:36
SPEAKER_00: What would be a less objectionable goal?
53:39
SPEAKER_00: Contentment?
53:40
SPEAKER_00: Exuberance?
53:41
SPEAKER_00: Okayness?
53:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's really hard.
53:44
SPEAKER_01: There's something like 15 or 17 academic definitions of happiness,
53:47
SPEAKER_01: and I never pick one because as a lawyer,
53:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
53:50
SPEAKER_01: oh,
53:50
SPEAKER_01: I've been down that road with torts.
53:52
SPEAKER_00: You know it when you see it.
53:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
53:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
53:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't feel like that's a very helpful framing myself.
53:59
SPEAKER_01: I feel like we're more likely to hit a target if we aim at it.
54:02
So let's think about what we want and how might we move closer
54:07
to it rather than
54:08
SPEAKER_01: worrying about offshoots and I don't know.
54:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean...
54:13
It feels like a hard way to think about it I always want to do
54:17
it the most
54:17
SPEAKER_01: straightforward way I'm like the Benjamin Franklin approach Which is?
54:22
SPEAKER_01: You know,
54:22
SPEAKER_01: make a list Check it twice Keep a scorecard Yeah,
54:27
SPEAKER_00: you know Have some aphorisms Is that exhausting for people around you?
54:32
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
54:33
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes.
54:33
SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about Jamie in some of these pursuits.
54:36
SPEAKER_01: He does feel he's an innocent bystander.
54:39
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
54:40
I call my sister my happiness guinea pig because I definitely
54:43
she's more game for
54:44
SPEAKER_01: it than my husband.
54:45
SPEAKER_01: So she does.
54:46
SPEAKER_01: She does get wrapped up into some of my experiments.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: Jamie, I'm on your team.
54:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:50
SPEAKER_00: All right.
54:51
SPEAKER_00: Let's do fill in the blank and then we'll leave.
54:53
SPEAKER_00: The thing I love most about New York City is.
54:57
SPEAKER_01: The New York City spirit,
54:58
SPEAKER_01: it's just like,
55:00
SPEAKER_01: there is something really special about the spirit of New York City.
55:02
SPEAKER_00: It's a cool place to be.
55:04
SPEAKER_00: It's too damn cold.
55:05
SPEAKER_01: Right now it is, yes.
55:07
SPEAKER_00: But it will get too hot and then we'll complain about that.
55:09
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
55:09
SPEAKER_00: The little thing,
55:10
SPEAKER_00: and that will not make,
55:11
SPEAKER_00: well,
55:11
SPEAKER_00: the complaining will make us happy on some weird level.
55:13
SPEAKER_00: The little thing my husband does that makes me happiest is?
55:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh, what a great question.
55:22
SPEAKER_01: Um...
55:24
SPEAKER_01: Takes out the trash regularly.
55:27
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I never take out the trash.
55:29
SPEAKER_01: He's a hero.
55:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he is a hero.
55:31
SPEAKER_00: That's so romantic.
55:32
SPEAKER_01: It's a little thanks, man.
55:34
SPEAKER_01: We've been married a long time.
55:36
SPEAKER_00: The thing most people get wrong about happiness is?
55:39
SPEAKER_01: They think that there's one right way.
55:40
And instead of realizing,
55:42
it's back to this idea of self-knowledge that we talked about
55:44
before.
55:44
SPEAKER_01: Everybody has to figure out the way that works for them.
55:48
SPEAKER_00: If I could do it all over again, I would change blank.
55:56
I think I would spend more time doing silly things with my kids
56:05
when they were little.
56:07
SPEAKER_00: That's a good answer.
56:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
56:09
SPEAKER_00: One thing people can do every day to improve happiness is?
56:12
SPEAKER_01: Go to bed on time.
56:16
that's it that's yes I think everything starts from a good
56:19
night's sleep and
56:20
there's few things that a good night's sleep doesn't help so
56:22
yeah my watch every
56:23
morning says congratulations you hit your eight hours of
56:26
whatever and then I said
56:27
does that count the two I spent staring at the ceiling
56:29
wondering about mistakes I
56:30
SPEAKER_00: made
56:32
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's not.
56:33
SPEAKER_01: So that's good.
56:34
SPEAKER_01: You get a gold star.
56:35
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
56:35
SPEAKER_01: Your watch is giving you a gold star when you wake up.
56:37
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
56:37
SPEAKER_01: I got to do that too.
56:39
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
56:39
SPEAKER_00: I forgot to ask you this.
56:40
Are you given the challenges we in the next generation have
56:44
with technology?
56:44
SPEAKER_00: Are you bullish on happiness?
56:47
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
56:49
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
56:50
SPEAKER_00: What's the key to navigating around those devices?
56:55
SPEAKER_01: Being the boss and not the servant.
56:57
SPEAKER_01: Taking control.
56:58
SPEAKER_01: Can I give a quick hack for people?
57:01
SPEAKER_01: I love happiness hacks.
57:03
So if you feel like you're being overwhelmed by your phone and
57:06
you can't manage it,
57:08
SPEAKER_01: it's very easy.
57:09
SPEAKER_01: Go into settings and change your phone to grayscale.
57:11
SPEAKER_01: And then it will be in black, white and gray instead of color.
57:14
And it is much harder to use it and it's much less enticing and
57:18
it's very easy to
57:19
SPEAKER_01: switch it back and forth.
57:20
SPEAKER_01: So if you need to look at a photograph or something, you can.
57:24
But you will find it much easier to put down your phone
57:26
Interesting And if you have
57:28
SPEAKER_01: a child who's always badgering you to use the device Change it to black,
57:32
SPEAKER_01: white,
57:32
and gray And just tell them that it's broken and you don't know
57:34
how to fix it And
57:36
they won't be as interested in it Because color is It makes it
57:40
a lot easier to use
57:41
SPEAKER_01: these And it makes them much more appealing Try it in black,
57:44
SPEAKER_01: white,
57:45
and gray And it will be much easier to put it down You heard it
57:47
from Gretchen Rubin
57:48
SPEAKER_00: That's right Lie to your child Yeah,
57:50
SPEAKER_01: right Sometimes these things have to be done
57:53
SPEAKER_00: Gretchen, thank you so much.
57:54
SPEAKER_00: This has been a pleasure.
57:55
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm so happy I got the chance to talk to you.
57:57
SPEAKER_00: Oh, and take the Four Tendencies quiz.
58:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, GretchenRubin.com slash quiz.
58:02
SPEAKER_01: I got a lot of quizzes there.
58:03
SPEAKER_01: If you like a quiz, I got some really fun quizzes.
58:05
SPEAKER_00: Links in the show notes.
58:06
SPEAKER_00: Thanks again.
58:07
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.