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Protestantism Isn't Individualism: The Solas and Authority (Gregg Quiggle) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Welcome to Thanking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: and I'm glad you're here. In this special series, we're
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: stepping back into one of the most pivotal times in
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Christian history, the German Reformation. This was a time when
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: the Gospel was being rediscovered, the Church was being challenged,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: and the course of Western civilization was being reshaped with
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: ripples that still reach into our lives today. And to
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: guide us through this journey, I'm joined by a true expert,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: someone who doesn't just know the Reformation from books, but
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: from the cobblestone streets and cathedral halls where it actually happened,
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Greg Quiggle. Greg is a Reformation historian and the
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: owner and operator of Kotelis Travel, a company that runs
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: what they call tours for ten, intimate travel experiences designed
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: for people who want something deeper than a typical tour.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: They offer a three to one guest to guide ratio,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: and these trips give you consistent access to guides who've
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: been on location multiple times, who know not only the history,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: but also where to find the best able strudal and
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: other German delicacies along the way. You can learn more
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: about Greg and Kotellus at kotellistravelservice dot com. And if
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: this series piques your interest, Greg actually has a German
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Reformation trip coming up this May, and last I heard,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: there are still a few seats available. In this series,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Greg is going to help us explore the people, places,
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  Speaker 1: and theological stakes of the Reformation as well as helping
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  Speaker 1: us understand why it still matters for Christians today. So
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  Speaker 1: let's get started. Hey, everyone, welcome back to this episode
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  Speaker 1: of Thinking Christian On Doctor James Spencer and I am
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: joined again by doctor Greg Quiggle, and we're going to
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: continue our series on the German Reformation, and today we're
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  Speaker 1: really going to pivot to something that's a little bit
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  Speaker 1: more about the tradition of Protestantism, and that is the
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  Speaker 1: Reformation Souls as sometimes they're referred to, and so we're
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  Speaker 1: going to talk about how these help us to frame
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  Speaker 1: out what it means to be Protestant, regardless really of
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  Speaker 1: what the nomination you're in, and why these are so
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  Speaker 1: central and crucial to the Reformation, particularly as we looked
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  Speaker 1: at the instability that was created by the Reformation and
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  Speaker 1: the break from the Catholic Church in the last episode.
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  Speaker 1: So Greg come back, talk to us a little bit
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  Speaker 1: about what the souls are. Man.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's I believe five of them. I I
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  Speaker 2: prefer to frame it a slightly different way, if that's okay, Yeah, please.
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  Speaker 2: I think there are three basic questions that are at
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  Speaker 2: the core of what happens in the sixteenth century.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: Most Protestants think that the Reformation was about corruption, and
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  Speaker 2: that's marginally true because the fact of the matter is
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  Speaker 2: the Roman Church admits they were corrupted and fixed it themselves.
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  Speaker 2: There is such a thing as a Catholic Reformation. The
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  Speaker 2: Council of Trent deals with a lot of this stuff. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: but I think what's really going on is there's three
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  Speaker 2: basic theological questions that really the soul has come out of.
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  Speaker 2: So let's let's frame it that way.
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  Speaker 1: Great.
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  Speaker 2: The first question is what's church? And the sixty four
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  Speaker 2: thousand dollars word for that is ecclesiology. You know, you
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  Speaker 2: pay all this money so you can learn a vocabulary.
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  Speaker 2: That's about all that is. So what is the church?
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  Speaker 2: What is the church? And in sixteenth century Roman Catholic
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  Speaker 2: thought and I'm using sixteenth century because they've changed some
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  Speaker 2: and sixteenth century Protestants aren't the same either. In sixteenth
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  Speaker 2: century Roman Catholic thought, the church is a pyramid. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: it's it's it's the old model that you always saw
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  Speaker 2: at a business, you know, it's the here's the CEO,
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  Speaker 2: and then it goes down. And so what is the church.
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  Speaker 2: The church is this structure and at the top is
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  Speaker 2: the pope, and then you got the cardinal, and then
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  Speaker 2: you've got the archbishop and the bishop, and and down
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  Speaker 2: at the bottom you got the low priest. So it
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  Speaker 2: is basically the clergy that are in a hierarchy. And
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  Speaker 2: so this is religion as spectator sport. That's the way
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  Speaker 2: I like to think about it. You and I've been
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  Speaker 2: to lots of medieval cathedrals, and we've all seen how
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  Speaker 2: they have tried to modernize them. But when you walk in,
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  Speaker 2: the first thing you see is way, way, way way
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  Speaker 2: up front, and at a higher level is the altar
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  Speaker 2: because that's where the juice is. Okay, And in the
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  Speaker 2: sixteenth century there would have even have been a screen
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  Speaker 2: to screen this thing off. So way up here is
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  Speaker 2: the altar. People can't even see what's going on up there,
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  Speaker 2: and it's all in Latin. They have no idea what's
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  Speaker 2: going on. It's physically above them and they can't understand
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  Speaker 2: what's happening. So the church is these guys with the
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  Speaker 2: pope at the top. It's an organism or an organization. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: church is organization. Sixteenth century Protestants are going to say, no,
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  Speaker 2: it's not. The church is an organism, not an organization.
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  Speaker 2: And the doctrine here is called the priesthood of all believers.
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  Speaker 2: So what they're going to say is everybody is part
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  Speaker 2: of the church, and there's only one distinction between clergy
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  Speaker 2: and lay people, and that is what they called the
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  Speaker 2: office of the Word. So the only difference between clergy
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  Speaker 2: and lay people is clergy have the right to teach
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  Speaker 2: and by extension, to do sacraments, because that was seen
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  Speaker 2: as an extension of the teaching office. So priesthood of
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  Speaker 2: all believers means two things. Number One, you have all
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  Speaker 2: the rights of the clergy save one, the preaching office,
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  Speaker 2: which means who's between you and God nobody, So it's
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  Speaker 2: a flattening okay. Second part, and this is the part
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  Speaker 2: that we don't like. You have all the responsibilities of
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  Speaker 2: the clergy save one, meaning who's responsible to do the ministry,
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  Speaker 2: answer everybody. The clergy's job is to teach the word,
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  Speaker 2: to equip the saints to do the work. So I've
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  Speaker 2: made the argument that many large Protestant churches are functionally
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  Speaker 2: Roman Catholic. They pay clergy to do the ministry. They
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  Speaker 2: think their job is to show up, watch and pay
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  Speaker 2: the professionals. That's Roman Catholic. Who's responsible to raise children
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  Speaker 2: in the faith? Well, the youth pastor, of course, no,
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  Speaker 2: parents are Am I opposed to youth pastors? Of course not.
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  Speaker 2: Who's responsible to do evangelism? Well, the pastor of evangelism?
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  Speaker 2: Am I opposed to ask? No? But you see how
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  Speaker 2: this is working. What Luther is going to do and
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  Speaker 2: other Protestants are going to do is say Christianity is
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  Speaker 2: not a spectator support. Every Christian has a gift. Every
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  Speaker 2: Christian is a meaningful part of the church church. Every
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  Speaker 2: Christian is a priest. Every Christian is a necessary part
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  Speaker 2: of the church. So what is the church? Is it?
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  Speaker 2: Is it an organization or is it an organism? That's
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  Speaker 2: a fundamental difference. Number one? Number two? How do I
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  Speaker 2: stand before God? How am I saved? Sixty four thousand dollars?
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  Speaker 2: Word soteriology Okay, in sixteenth century Roman Catholicism, you're saved
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  Speaker 2: in buy and through the hierarchy of the church, you
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  Speaker 2: are made righteous with God. Through the sacramental system, the
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  Speaker 2: Church dispenses grace that you must get only through the sacraments.
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  Speaker 2: No sacrament, no grace, no grace, no salvation. There's the authority.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So let me just ask a quick question there
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  Speaker 1: before you go on to the third question. So you
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  Speaker 1: have this flattening in the ecclesiological section that's obviously interrelated
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  Speaker 1: to the soteriology and the way you achieve salvation within
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  Speaker 1: the Roman Catholic system, and you can see that mediatorial
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  Speaker 1: role of the church. The people have to come to
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  Speaker 1: the church to get the grace, to spense sufficient to
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  Speaker 1: actually earn their righteousness, and those things come not necessarily
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  Speaker 1: through Although I think sometimes my impression was Catholics teach
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  Speaker 1: that you need to be a good person in order
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  Speaker 1: to go to heaven. That's probably a little bit too
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  Speaker 1: simplified an understanding of what's going on, because what's really
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  Speaker 1: happening is you have to participate within the ructures and
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  Speaker 1: practices of the church, the sacraments of the Church, in
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  Speaker 1: order to be saved coct Okay.
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  Speaker 2: Correct, You are never saved by works alone. You are
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  Speaker 2: saved by works plus grace and faith.
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  Speaker 1: And that grace plus faith is mediated by the Church through.
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  Speaker 2: The sevenfold Sacramental system, which we can talk about some
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  Speaker 2: more at another time.
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  Speaker 1: Great, Okay, that clarifies. Okay, So we have what is
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  Speaker 1: the church? How? How do I stand before a righteous God?
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  Speaker 1: How do I stand before God? How am I saved? Okay?
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  Speaker 2: So what do Protestant sixteenth century Protestants say? It's not
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  Speaker 2: church centered, it's God centered. Yeah. This is justification by
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  Speaker 2: faith alone in Christ alone, as he's found in the
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  Speaker 2: Bible alone. Justification by faith alone in Christ alone, as
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  Speaker 2: he's found in the Bible alone, solo fida, sola christ
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  Speaker 2: solo scriptura. Okay, So it's God centered. Salvation is something
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  Speaker 2: God does, and the peace underneath this is things like predestination, election,
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  Speaker 2: because faith is a gift from God and faith is
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  Speaker 2: something that is personal. Yeah. So here's another difference in
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  Speaker 2: the In the Catholic system, there is what's called or
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  Speaker 2: I will. The term that I use is implicit faith.
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  Speaker 2: You don't even need to understand. They can believe for you.
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  Speaker 2: M Okay, I need to do is show up. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: you don't need to understand this stuff. It's okay that
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  Speaker 2: it's Latin. Just do what you're doing. Okay. They have
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  Speaker 2: explicit faith, You can have implicit faith. That's what I
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  Speaker 2: mean religion as spectator sport. Look, you can feel it
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  Speaker 2: when you walk in the building and you know, James,
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  Speaker 2: and when when people come with us on the tourist
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  Speaker 2: they will see. How has the Catholic Church tried to
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  Speaker 2: fix this after Vatican too, they shoved the table down.
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  Speaker 2: Nobody does the mass up the big altars anymore. They
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  Speaker 2: shove the table down. It's simple. It's on the same
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  Speaker 2: level as the people. They serve it from the same
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  Speaker 2: level as the people. They tried to shove it down
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  Speaker 2: into the people so that there isn't that great golf anymore.
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  Speaker 2: But that was a deliberate golf. They were built that way.
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  Speaker 2: It was to remind you they're the guys. You're just
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  Speaker 2: the schmos that show up. So faith is something that
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  Speaker 2: God does. Yep. Faith is the object or the virtue
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  Speaker 2: by which you are made right with God. The object
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  Speaker 2: of that faith is Jesus, and Jesus, the Jesus who
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  Speaker 2: saves is found solely in the scriptures. This is a
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  Speaker 2: point that both Luther and Calvin make. The Jesus who
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  Speaker 2: saves is the Jesus of the Bible, not the one
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  Speaker 2: you make up in your own head. So it's the
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  Speaker 2: Bible alone in that sense, which gets us to the
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  Speaker 2: third question. And this is the question that really is
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  Speaker 2: the ultimate question. It's the question of authority. And the
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  Speaker 2: sixty four thousand dollars word for authority is authority. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: who or what has the right to define what I
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  Speaker 2: must believe and what I must do? Who or what
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  Speaker 2: has the right to define what I must believe and
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  Speaker 2: what I must do? Sixteenth century Roman Catholicism. It's the hierarchy, yeh,
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  Speaker 2: Cardinal Archbishop ding Ding Ding ding Ding down to the
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  Speaker 2: local priest. Yeah, Protestants, it's the Bible alone. This is
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  Speaker 2: the one that is the the that there is no
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  Speaker 2: way to make this one work. You will find that
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  Speaker 2: Catholics and Protestants can find places of agreement on the
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  Speaker 2: first two questions.
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  Speaker 1: I can believe that, Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: You can. You can find strands. I mean I I
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  Speaker 2: have a master's from a Roman Catholic Jesuit university. I
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  Speaker 2: had a class in soteriology from a Jesuit father. And
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  Speaker 2: he said, I remember scaring my mentor because I said,
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  Speaker 2: I always thought Luther and Augustine made more sense on
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  Speaker 2: justification than a Quinas did. And you know, and he
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  Speaker 2: was very Augustinian Lutheran on soltariology. Yeah, but he accepted
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  Speaker 2: the authority of the Pope. Yeah. You can't fudge on that.
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  Speaker 2: Either either you accept people and fallibility or you don't.
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  Speaker 2: There's no no way around that. Either either it's the
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  Speaker 2: Bible alone or the Pope. But you can't. There's no
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  Speaker 2: middle one on that one. Yeah. And that's the one
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  Speaker 2: that even when you look at the sixteenth century, every
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  Speaker 2: time they tried to find ways to rebridge this, anytime
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  Speaker 2: a doctrine came up that Protestants would say, make it
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  Speaker 2: clear from the Bible, and the Catholic Church would say, well,
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  Speaker 2: the fourth lateran council or the Pope has declared, end
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  Speaker 2: of conversation. There's nowhere to go on that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I even remember, you know, there was and
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  Speaker 1: I don't recall exactly when they did it, but there
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  Speaker 1: was a joint declaration on justification I believe between the
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  Speaker 1: Lutherans and the Catholics if I'm remembering that correctly, Yes,
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  Speaker 1: and you can sort of understand between Lutherans and Catholics.
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  Speaker 1: I will say there is probably even more commonality between
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  Speaker 1: Lutheran doctrine and Catholic doctrine than there would be let's say,
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  Speaker 1: to Southern Baptist or you know, those kind of things. So,
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  Speaker 1: just to give an illustration of what I have in
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  Speaker 1: my head, the way that baptism produces faith within the
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  Speaker 1: Lutheran doctrine resonates with the sort of sacramentalism you still
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  Speaker 1: see in the Roman Catholic Church. Something like that. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: but still I take your point like there is a
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  Speaker 1: way to bridge it. The issue is always going to
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  Speaker 1: be do we surrender ourselves too? And in the Lutheran case,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: it would probably be do we surrender the entire Lutheran
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  Speaker 1: denomination to the Roman Catholic Church, because that denomination is
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  Speaker 1: a bit more hierarchically structured, And even though they might
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: sit under the Bible alone, the church sits under the
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  Speaker 1: Bible alone a little more than like individual Christians sit
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: under the Bible alone. Again, as you might see in
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: like a more autonomous doctrinal or independent church. Let's say, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I mean you know. I mean there's shades of it, right,
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  Speaker 1: a simple illustration.
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  Speaker 2: I mean I used to say this all the time
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  Speaker 2: to kids on study abroad at Moody. I'd say, look,
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  Speaker 2: we may be visiting the Catholic Church. Don't take the mass, well,
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: and Catholics will say, please, do not take the mask.
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  Speaker 2: Take the mass, right, because part of taking the mass
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  Speaker 2: is accepting papal authority.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a solidarity there, and that's right. It is interesting,
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  Speaker 1: go ahead, good well.
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  Speaker 2: I mean it's simply a maunt of respecting them. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: you know, and there's no way around that.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's it's so it's been interesting to
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: me if we just go back to the justification by
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: faith for a minute. So in New Testament scholarship, there's
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: been a movement by some to go back and rethink
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  Speaker 1: the meaning of faith. So biblical work on pistas and
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: pistis related terms. In the New Testament, pistics is the
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Greek work for faith. There has been this movement toward
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: faith as fidelity or faith as loyalty that seems to
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  Speaker 1: me to actually have some you know, as an Old
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Testament guy, and you're looking at the love of God
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  Speaker 1: in Deuteronomy and you realize that to love God is
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  Speaker 1: to be loyal to him.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Devotion is not a warm, fuzzy feeling, It's a giving
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  Speaker 1: oneself over to it in you know, in full measure. Right,
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  Speaker 1: So there's an intuitive sense where I'm like, yes, of
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  Speaker 1: course faith involves loyalty. Do you have a sense greg
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: of how that sense of faith would have factored into
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  Speaker 1: justification by faith in Luther's day? Or was this just
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  Speaker 1: strict I believe it, you know, sort of. I assent
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  Speaker 1: to it, intellectually commit to live by it. You know,
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  Speaker 1: what's the range on that within Luther? Do you have
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: any idea?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I think I think Luther gets a bum
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  Speaker 2: wrap on this because he is constantly accused of being
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  Speaker 2: an Antinomian. That means lawlessness, is it right? Obedience doesn't matter,
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  Speaker 2: And I'd take us back to the ninety five thesis.
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  Speaker 2: When our Lord and Savior said repent, he didn't mean dependent.
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  Speaker 2: He meant the entire life of the believers to be
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  Speaker 2: one of repentence.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which suggests obedience, which is obedience?
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  Speaker 2: I mean? Right, now, here's where I think Luther complicates it. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: because Luther does not diminish the law. So here's the law.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind,
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: and strength. And second is under the first, love your
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: neighbor as yourself. When when do you do that? When
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: does anybody do that? When is anybody ever obedient? Yeah?
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  Speaker 2: Answer never?
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  Speaker 1: Never?
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  Speaker 2: So what should what should your life look like? Of
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: course it should look like repentance. Repentance is a way
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  Speaker 2: of life. Guess what else is the way of life? Faith?
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: The just shall what by faith live? Faith is not
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  Speaker 2: something you did. Faith is something you do. Luther doesn't
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  Speaker 2: care what you believed. On December the seventh, two thousand
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  Speaker 2: and three. Yeah, so you know I quoted I think
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  Speaker 2: I'm quoting him. Right. There's a guy named Malcolm Muggridge
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: who was kind of like C. S. Lewis Part two,
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  Speaker 2: but never as famous. And somebody asked Muggridge, and I've
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: never looked this up, but I think this is right.
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  Speaker 2: When did you decide for Christ? And his answer was
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  Speaker 2: a classic Lutheran when he said, I hope I decide
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  Speaker 2: for him every day. Yeah, Luther isn't interested in what
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: you did, He's interested in what you do. Faith isn't
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  Speaker 2: something you did. Faith is something you do. Belief is
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  Speaker 2: something you do. Faith is a way of life, as
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  Speaker 2: is repentance. So Christian and that he consists of two things,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: faith and repentance. That's why gospel and law can never
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: be separated. You must always preach law and gospel. You
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: have to kill your people every week and then raise
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: them from the dead. So if you preach just law,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: you destroy people. If you preach just gospel, you make
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: them lawless. That's why he says nutty things like if
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: you think you're good, you need to go commit a
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: little sin. You need to go drink too much, you
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: need to go sleep too much, you need to be lazy,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: because there's no word of comfort in scripture for people
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  Speaker 2: that don't think they're sinners. Yeah, so so how do
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: you That doesn't really fit either category? So you know,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: so for him, yeah, holiness means faithfulness, but faithfulness means believing,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: and the sure sign of believing is repentance. So you know,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: how does this? It doesn't really work in those categories. Yeah,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: you see, you see what I mean?
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: I do I don't I don't know. I don't know
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Luther's work well enough. But it strikes me that, like
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: first John would resonate with the way Luther's with the
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: way you're describing what Luther's saying. If you even if
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: you just go to First John one, and you know,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: the initial one is God is light, and if we
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: walk in the light, if we have, we have fellowship
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: with Him. If we walk in the light, if we
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: walk in darkness, we don't. And then you know, if
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: we deny our sin, right, we deceive ourselves. But if
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: we confess our sin, he is faithful and righteous to
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: forgive us our sins in cleensic all and righteousness. You
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: have these sort of markers. Whereas, yes, you're walking in
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: the light. Part of walking in the light is agreeing
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: with God that you are doing things that are anesthetical
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: to what you would have you do. That is confession.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: And so you have later on in First John, you know,
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: the combination of love and obedience, love and obeying the
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: commandments of God. And so it just it strikes me
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: that Luther's onto something there and that these are important
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: aspects of you know, when we talk faith alone, we're
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: not just talking about an intellectual assent or even a
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: moment of commitment. Faith is a life of commitment, and
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: I think maybe because we're running a little low on time.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: I want to if faith is a life of commitment,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: it seems to me that the teaching office that is
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: part of the structure of the way that they framed
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: out what is church that you described earlier becomes way
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: more crucial. We make it today, way more.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: Yes, and that's why that's why I think he would
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: be very frustrated at the whimsical nature that we the
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: way we treat the teaching office. If a I don't
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: need it or be anybody in their brother can do it. Yeah,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: you know it does say not many of you should
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: be teachers number one and number two. We tend to
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: assume that the key to spiritual growth is my own
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: personal Bible study, as if Christianity is personal growth, and
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: you know, christian growth is accomplished independent of the teaching office.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: I don't Why did God establish it then? Right? And
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: you know, to me this is these things are like
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: self evident. How how did Christians function for so many
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: for thousands of years without personal devotions?
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I'm not saying I'm a post That's
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: not my point. My point is not saying you shouldn't
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: that personal. But for some some way people were able
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: to function effectively without having personal devotions and doing daily
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Bible readings, right, and.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Well, this gets us back to things like you know,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: and we don't need to go into all this, but
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: I think, you know, when I think the teaching office
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: and some of the let's say, just the church calendar,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: the electionaries that are followed the Catechism, obviously that Luther
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: was big on, and I was. I grew up Lutheran,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: so I went through the luther Small Catechism before I
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: was confirmed in the Lutheran Church, and so I remember
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of those things, and it actually was a
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: helpful way of understanding and putting barrier boundaries around faith.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: But I think a lot of this goes to when
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: we strip out too much of the structure, we run
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: the risk of losing something that we really don't want
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: to lose, yep. And that's you know, I understand that
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: tension within the Reformation. What do we keep what do
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: we get rid of? We have these solos, but I
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: would even argue that as we're looking at those three
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: questions that you gave us and then the five solos
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: that extend from them, Man, there's a lot of nuance
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: we need to put around each one of these. Yeah,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: it's like we have to understand them in context in
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: order for them to really function. We just can't slap oh,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: it's sola scripture around and assume So whatever I interpret
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: the Bible to be, that's.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: What it is.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: And that's you know, all this is, or you know,
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: priesthood of all believers. Nobody can tell me what to do,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: you know, those kind of things. It's like, ex no, No,
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: that's not what this was. This was a much more structured,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: much more nuanced system of five convictions, right, that were
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: intended to function in a particular way.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: And that's why I framed this as sixteenth century Protestantism. Yeah,
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: and you know, I you know, we're gonna we're doing
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: other podcasts and one of them is on American Revivalism,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: and and that's where American Protestantism is not sixteenth century
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: European Protestantism, Right, that's a whole different ball of wax.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Now we're cousins, but there's a lot of water that
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: went under the bridge. And you know, so for our listeners,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: please tune in so Paul Harvey can get the rest
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: of the story because because a lot of things that
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: we assume about Protestantism are American not Protestant, and that's
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: important distinction to make. Yeah. Yeah, individualism, the right to
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: individual interpretation, all those kinds of things are quite different
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: than what the Protestants had in mind, and they may
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: not even be what the New Testament had in mind.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's interesting when you rip it out, pull
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: it into a different context and you see even how
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: just a sort of gesture to some of what will
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: go through and the Great Awakening and those kind of things,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: the break from the Church of England and the reactions
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: that are occurring based on that on the Church of
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: England have to condition some of what's going on in
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: American Protestantism as well as just sort of the colonial
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: instincts that are going on within the founding of America.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: There is a particular sort of individual who's going to
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: go to a land that has not been conquered. I mean,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: I don't even like to go camping, greg Like, I
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: don't know, I don't want to. I don't want to
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: have to find the porta potty, right, Like I am
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: not going to be a great colonist that is not
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: going to be my thing, right, Hey, yeah, let me
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: go and figure things out.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Nope.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: If there's not a Hampton, I'm really good. I'll just
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: I'll wait for you guys to build one, and then
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: I'll come over and see it. I think there's a
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: certain mentality of these guys that when they came over,
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: it's like, no, it's game time and we're going to
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: do this. And that mentality gets baked in in a
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: lot of different ways into an early American Christianity. Absolutely, absolutely, well,
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: this is very good. We've got probably one or two
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: more that we're going to do on the Reformation, the
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: German Reformation, some of these. We'll probably talk one more
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: on the Sola's. I'd like to get into the idea
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: of justification by faith and maybe do a little bit
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: of work on the new perspective Luther's conception of justification
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: by faith and the particularly I would say the background
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: the Protestant scholarship is used to understand the Jews of
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Jesus's day has been subject to a lot of debate
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: over the last let's call it decade and a half,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: and so I think there's there. It's worth kind of
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: closing this up, maybe with that and then otherwise, I
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: just encourage everybody. We're going to do some of these
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: on Swiss Reformation, We're going to do some of these
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: on some of the other historical aspects of our faith,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: and just encourage you to tune back in check out
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: our Great Awakening stuff when it comes out. We're planning
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: for that to release in October, and we're actually doing
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: it as a well produced series. So these are just,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: you know, a minimal edit sort of podcast that one's
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: going to be. Think of it like your favorite true
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: crime podcast, really well done, scored, edited, all that kind
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: of fun stuff. So keep an eye out for that one.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: And Greg, it's always a pleasure to have you. Well,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: we'll be back in the next episode. And for everybody
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: who's listening, thanks for being here and have a great day.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: We'll see you on the next episode of Thinking. I
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: just want to take a second to thank the team
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.
• 33:11
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