Latest / King Dems Podcast | Growth Mindset, Leadership, AI and Business Insights / Mindset, Skillset, Toolset: Kevin Appleby on AI in Business & Growth CFO Leadership

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Mindset, Skillset, Toolset: Kevin Appleby on AI in Business & Growth CFO Leadership · King Dems Podcast | Growth Mindset, Leadership, AI and Business Insights

0:00
You've moved from being the internal face of finance to the
0:03
external face. That's a big, big shift, OK.
0:06
You're then the person that's supposed to have all the answers
0:09
as far as the board's concerned, as far as customers are
0:12
concerned, the CEO stand to rely on you a lot.
0:16
So it is a lonely place. Before we dive back into today's
0:19
conversation, I want to share something important.
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This episode includes a pay partnership with Better Help, a
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platform designed to make starting therapy easier.
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I know from my own journey as a leader and entrepreneur that
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Once again, this is OK partnership with Better Help and
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I encourage you to take that first step.
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If you've been thinking about it, sometimes the best
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investment you can make easy. Yourself Welcome to the King
1:25
Dems Podcast, where we share the stories of extraordinary people
1:28
and dissect hot, relevant topics that shape our world.
1:32
From visionary leaders to trailblazing creatives, we
1:35
uncover the mindset, strategy, and grit behind greatness.
1:38
Whether it's business, culture, or personal growth, we ask the
1:42
real questions. This isn't just conversation,
1:44
it's transformation. The Kingdom's podcast, Your Next
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Breakthrough, starts here. Licencing Reimagined.
1:55
Hi, ladies and gentlemen, and once again welcome to The
1:58
Kingdom's podcast and Diary of a CFO.
2:02
And today I've got one be a very important guest, Barton out of
2:07
Newcastle, United Kingdom. Mcwalken, Kevin Agro, CFO
2:13
Champion. Appleby, how are you today?
2:19
We're jumping into a boxing ring at a mola.
2:22
Yeah, with an interject like that, should I have some some
2:26
inspiring music playing behind me as I walk into the ring?
2:29
Let's go, let's go. You know, I'm a martial artist,
2:33
you know, as well as a fight and expert.
2:37
And the interesting thing is that life is a fight.
2:40
Life is actually a fight. We, we have to fight a lot of
2:43
factors, you know, even business, you should know that
2:47
you've been a business for years and you've had to fight a lot of
2:49
wars and you know a lot of battles.
2:53
And that is why you are inspiring the world, you're
2:56
inspiring the next generation of CFOs and that is why you're
3:00
highly appreciated. Of course, you've fought many
3:03
battles and of course, not what everything, but we've won the
3:07
important ones in order to be where you are today, and you'll
3:11
highly appreciate it. So I'm going to read your intro,
3:15
especially curated for you. Today we are joined by Kevin
3:19
Appleby, powerhouse in the financial chip space.
3:23
Kevin is the Head of Partnerships at Growth CFO, host
3:27
of the Growth CFO Show Forecast and a mentor to finance leaders
3:31
navigating the fast changing world of technology.
3:35
A career spanning consulting, transformation coaching and
3:39
fractional CFO leadership, Kevin has helped countless finance
3:44
leaders move from isolation to E July, from numbers to strategy.
3:49
On this episode of Indians podcast and directors, CFO will
3:53
dive into the mindset shift strategies and stories behind
3:57
his journey and uncover the practical wisdom he shares with
4:00
leaders around the world. Ladies and gentlemen on today
4:04
Walker, Kevin, Mr Go, CFO. Adam, thank you hugely for
4:12
having me as a guest on the show.
4:14
Really excited to be there. Be here today.
4:17
That was a good introduction. AI wrote that very well for you.
4:21
I am AI tati Mullah ICMS So what do you expect?
4:25
Like trends knew the assignments.
4:27
They knew what they were doing with that name.
4:29
Yeah, they kept it a secret. So they just did not want, you
4:33
know, to be so open. That's why they did not need me.
4:36
Artificial intelligence, they said, let's code it, let's code
4:38
it. You know, in more than 30 years,
4:40
people will understand. And of course I love my initials
4:43
AI so. Initial AI The future is yours.
4:47
The future is yours, Alamola. The future is by and of course,
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you know, when I see people get angry and say, oh, AI is coming
4:55
for our jobs. AI, I'm not coming for your jobs
4:58
guys. I am here to assist you.
5:00
AI is going to be an assistant, you know, not a not a
5:04
controller, not a people's jobs. We are helping people to become
5:09
more efficient so you can have a better quality of life and focus
5:14
on the major things, you know, major on the major and minor on
5:17
the minor. And how do you do that by
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achieving efficiency. What does AI come to help to
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achieve as a human race? Efficiency at first, that is me
5:26
to the world at AI. So our let's delve into your
5:30
journey and of course your mindset.
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That's something I'd love to say that when you're employing a
5:36
person on your team, you need to look at three things, right?
5:39
You need to look at the mindset or the skill set and then the
5:42
tool set. So if the mindset is right, you
5:46
can train the skill sets and of course, the skill sets are
5:49
right. If you provide them with the
5:51
right tool set, they will definitely excel at whatever it
5:55
is that they do. Or Kevin, you've had to had a
5:59
fascinating caviar, you know, from TWC bullshit that PwC
6:04
background right to IBM to bushel to EDF and a personnel,
6:09
our growth CFO. So what mindset shifts you know
6:12
have actually defined your journey from being a consultant
6:16
to being a mentor, coach and a person thought leader for?
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And the journey actually goes further back than that, Adam.
6:24
I'd, I'd already been spent three years of BDO qualifying to
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be a chartered accountant, then ten years in the chemical
6:31
industry before I joined PwC. But yeah, 25 years as a
6:38
management consultant with PPWCIBM and Michelle and then as
6:45
an independent consult by myself.
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So lots of mind shifts have taken place along the way.
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Journey from consulting to mentor and thought leader for
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CFOs. Like most of my career, it kind
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of happened by accident. Wow.
7:01
People, people talk about planning a career.
7:05
Problem is, you can probably see what's ahead for I'll use the
7:09
phrase the next 100 days because I love that phrase.
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But where do you want to be in three years time?
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You can give some sort of vague answer, but.
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Do you want to know? I want to be in three years
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time? Yeah, I want to be in 2020. 8
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That's probably a good answer. That's about as good as you get.
7:28
3 as time you've been in 2028. But that's the whole point.
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No, 2019 I'd, I'd left full time consultancy.
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I was working independently, but working actually with a, a bunch
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of guys who I knew back from PwC who'd formed their own
7:45
consulting practise and we're working on a pretty big project.
7:49
And along came this thing called COVID.
7:56
We, we were working with the British police forces doing
8:00
something called transforming forensics.
8:02
It was a fascinating project. It was a huge project but I
8:06
remember well my last face to face meeting with the client
8:09
team. We couldn't just couldn't meet
8:11
beyond one stage and for various reasons our involvement project
8:16
was was tapering down anyway. But COVID was the end of it.
8:21
And I remember stopping off at a branch of Costa Coffee because I
8:26
had some time to go before I need to get to the next place.
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And a guy called Dan Wells been stalking me on LinkedIn and the
8:32
messages are going through, Oh, Kevin, I'm doing this thing
8:34
called Grow CFO, give me a phone call.
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And I did started speaking to Dan and one thing led to
8:39
another. And Grow CFO ended up being my
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main involvement across COVID when it couldn't do anything
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else. And beyond COVID now, if we'd
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sat down on New Year's Day 2020 and said, where do you want to
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be in three years time, Kevin? Well, I'd never met Dan.
8:59
I'd never heard a gross CFO. Certainly nobody got any idea
9:04
what this COVID thing was coming around the corner.
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So how on earth can you plan for three years ahead?
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All that I knew as I was going to 2020 was I'd started teaching
9:15
in the classroom because a big thing of mine is to to give
9:18
things back to the next generation.
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And I suppose that's the mindset that's key here.
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I, I really do want to give something back to the next
9:28
generation. I'd go to 2020.
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I was doing things in the classroom that no, I can reach
9:34
out to more people if I take some of this training and put it
9:37
online. COVID coming along forced me to
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do that. I ended up doing it as part of
9:45
gross CFO because I saw that Dan and I working together had much
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more power than us working separately.
9:50
But no, really all the way through, it's been this idea of
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I want to give back to the next generation.
9:57
And a lot of the things I was doing in the classroom were all
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about that experience of being out on a consulting assignment
10:04
and doing things for the client, asking the client's finance team
10:08
for information and to answer questions and so on that they
10:12
you couldn't easily answer. And then you'd go off as a
10:14
consultant, You'd apply your skills that came from activity
10:17
based costing, 0 based budgeting and so on to work out what
10:21
things cost, where you could save money to match costs and
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revenues. Things that I believe should be,
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it should have been a natural skill to a commercial finance
10:31
team, but so rarely found at the client.
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So I ended up teaching folk how to do that sort of stuff in the
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classroom. Wow, interesting stuff.
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You know, it's the different level of understanding and
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knowledge for me to be a teacher.
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I did teach professional accounts and students and I
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think I still feel blessed by that involvement in teaching
10:57
over time because he made me become a very well founded
11:02
professional and not just being, well, kind of professional,
11:06
having that problem solving mindset, you know, And in
11:11
economics, I learned that money is a store of value.
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And when you provide value to people, you won't in turn get
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value. So you are a very high value
11:24
person, right? And the whole journey from
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teaching to consulting has had just one common denominator even
11:33
into thought leadership, right? That is solving people's
11:37
pinpoints, right? So what's your quick advice for,
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you know, intending CFOs, you know, junk up and coming
11:46
professionals in terms of that growth mindset, I love the name
11:50
of the show, growth CFO. And when you look at the name of
11:53
my show, it has the title and of course the subtitle.
11:56
The subtitle is growth mindset, leadership, AI and business
12:00
insights. Of course, it very much fits
12:03
into my philosophy. That is the growth that the
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mindset, the skill set and the tool set.
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So from that framework, what's your advice to the young up and
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coming generation? What kind of mindset should they
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adopt? What kind of skill sets should
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they look at developing? And of course, what kind of tool
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sets should they look to utilise?
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Right, Tool Sets is the easy one.
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Don't worry about tool sets because what works today won't
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work tomorrow and especially with AI coming along, you're
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going to have to be incredibly agile and move from tool to
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tool. The only advice I'd give the
12:39
upcoming CFO is don't. Do not get stuck in the the
12:42
past. You've got to keep looking and
12:45
moving forward with the tool set.
12:47
Skill set. Well skill set is really
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important. You will learn a certain set of
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skills to pass your exams. You learn another set of skills
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as you rise up through the finance function and have to do
13:05
the various things that you would do within a business to to
13:09
run finance. But there's there's a point
13:11
where you switch from being a finance leader internally to
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becoming ACFO. You switch from being the
13:21
internal face of finance to being the external face of
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finance, and that means you've got to develop the right skills
13:29
to be able to do that. A lot of that's about
13:30
communication. It's about a communication, it's
13:34
about a commercial mindset, it's about understanding where the
13:38
other person's coming from. You will probably used as as
13:41
head of finance to still having your nose in an Excel
13:44
spreadsheet to producing a lot of the numbers yourself and to
13:48
then be working as a a business partner with the rest of the
13:51
business team. You move to CFO, you're Co pilot
13:56
to the CEO, you are working with the investors, you're working
14:01
with customers, you're working with suppliers, you may well
14:05
have the bank to talk to. And the last thing you're
14:09
probably doing is crunching the numbers yourself.
14:12
And you really are stepping outside of your comfort zone and
14:16
you've got to learn to live with certain degree of discomfort as
14:22
you do that. And that's when mindset, I
14:24
think, becomes then very, very important.
14:27
We ask CFOs to be master of so many things these days that it's
14:34
almost impossible to have all the skills you need.
14:38
But having the right mindset helps you through.
14:42
The biggest challenge to a new CFO is probably impostor
14:46
syndrome. It's probably lack of confidence
14:53
and it's probably task overwhelm because you've you've probably
14:56
not gone through there that process that delegates a lot of
15:00
stuff that you should delegate. You're still very hands on
15:02
yourself, yet you've got to be more hands off.
15:05
So you've got thinking space and can advise the business.
15:09
So mindset skill set, they're very strongly related.
15:12
You've got to be in a position to constantly learn.
15:17
The mindset has to be that that says I can do this, I just need
15:22
to go and acquire the skills. I could do this because it just
15:28
speaks to my favourite Bible verse.
15:31
Absolutely, absolutely. I can do all things.
15:34
If you're open to picking up the skills, you're open to asking
15:39
for help when necessary, asking for support.
15:42
And one of my big things is gratitude.
15:46
Be thankful for what you've got and the resources.
15:49
And I'm thankful every day that I've been given all the
15:54
resources I need and all the time I need to deliver my
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mandate. Gratitude is good attitude.
16:00
Yeah, yeah. So long answer to a simple
16:03
question there. Thank you very much.
16:06
You know, sometimes you need that long walk to feed up in the
16:11
words of Nelson Mandela. So you talk about loneliness of
16:15
a CFO seat. We often talk about how lonely
16:18
the CFO world can E. Why do you think many finance
16:22
leaders struggle in silence? And how can communities like
16:26
Grow CFO change that pattern? You've moved from being the
16:33
internal face of finance to the external face.
16:37
That's a big, big shift. OK, You're then the person
16:41
that's supposed to have all the answers as far as the board's
16:43
concerned, as far as customers are concerned, the CEO stand to
16:48
rely on you a lot. So it is a lonely place.
16:53
Chances are you've got, if you're in that position of being
16:56
part of a scale up, chances are you've got a fairly small team
16:59
around you. You might not have a really
17:04
strong #2 you may have somebody who's very good at doing the,
17:08
the financial controllership sort of things, but are they
17:11
necessarily the commercial person that you need to bounce
17:15
ideas off? And that's where the issue
17:18
starts. Actually, it's one one of the
17:20
reasons behind Gross CFO taking off in the 1st place.
17:25
Dan Wells, founder. Dan was an equity partner in
17:28
KPMG and he was talking on a daily basis to KPMG clients who
17:34
were CFOs of scale UPS and he was finding repeatedly that
17:39
every CFO was talking to had the same problems.
17:41
And one of the concepts behind Grow CFO in the 1st place was
17:45
the idea that if you could just get these CFOs talking to each
17:48
other, they wouldn't have help to solve each other's problems.
17:53
It's about networking, sharing experiences, sharing what works,
17:57
what doesn't work, or just play, brainstorming what we've got to
18:01
do. And that was born out as well in
18:05
the very early days of Grow CFO, we found ourselves very quickly
18:10
in lockdown, lots of CFOs wondering what to do, how do we
18:14
survive, how do we claim this grant that grant, how do we
18:18
replan what the business is doing?
18:20
And we started something in Grow CFO called the Situation Room.
18:24
Literally, we just advertised that, hey, we're going to run
18:27
this thing called the Situation Room.
18:28
Friday lunchtime, we're going to switch the Zoom cameras on.
18:32
Here's the here's the link to join in.
18:35
Come along and let's have a chat.
18:37
Literally, that's how we started networking Grow CFO.
18:41
We built a community up very quickly of people who just plain
18:45
wanted to come along and talk and find out from other CFOs
18:49
what on earth they were doing at the moment about all these
18:52
problems that had suddenly come along out of nowhere.
18:57
Wow. That's the power of community.
18:59
The power of community is very, very strong.
19:01
Yeah, I come from the city, takes a village to raise a
19:03
child. And of course, businesses are
19:05
like our children. We are what I say our
19:10
brainchild. And yeah, it takes a lot to to
19:12
view them. And it's honestly to the right
19:15
ecosystem of our right minded individuals, right minded
19:20
individuals, individuals with a good mindset, with the right
19:25
skill set. And of course, utilise the right
19:28
tool sets. So our Speaking of the rules
19:32
here for ecosystem, are you able to tell us you know what makes
19:36
it more than just a network? Like how does it empower the
19:40
CFOs through collaborations, the technology adoptions, the
19:45
leadership support? Like what are the nitty features
19:48
that makes you different from just the regular community that
19:53
just sits and talks, right? Because I have a very big
19:56
programme with no are too much talking.
19:58
See, talk is cheap and a lot of people in this age of time
20:02
suffer from something alcohol paralysis by analysis, right?
20:07
They absorb a lot of education, but they lack implementation.
20:12
So for me, I feel like success comes when you have the
20:16
execution or the implementation of the education.
20:20
Right. Then, yeah, have results.
20:23
So I'll love for you to speak to that.
20:26
Actually, that's sort of expanding on what we just talked
20:29
about. That idea of getting folk
20:31
together to brainstorm problems and sort things out for each
20:35
other is something that's the kind of echoes across a lot of
20:39
the stuff we do now in the gross CFO community.
20:42
We've got a membership platform and anybody come along and be a
20:47
grow CFO member for free and get some resources.
20:50
But if you're a paid member, you get into the learning system.
20:53
A lot of it is, well, it's aimed at finance people, which makes
20:57
us unusual because we've probably got more finance based
21:01
training you find anywhere else that's that's the sort of
21:04
self-service stuff fairly standard.
21:06
There's video on demand training, but on top of that, if
21:10
you're a grow CFO member, you can attend a certain amount of
21:13
live training, virtual classroom training.
21:16
It's like being in the classroom, but it's over Zoom.
21:18
And we've spotted the power of getting folk together in small
21:24
cohorts and letting them work together and spend an extended
21:29
period of time so they can get to know each other and support
21:33
each other. So we've got FP and a boot camp,
21:37
a finance business partnering boot camp, both of which are
21:40
available to gross CFO members, part of the membership.
21:44
And the way they work, each one of them, we, we run them over a
21:48
course of two months. And over those two months we do
21:51
7/2 hour workshops in small groups.
21:55
So we, we wouldn't really want more than somewhere between a
21:59
dozen and 20 people in a cohort. And they'll work in the
22:03
classroom with a trainer, they'll go into breakout groups,
22:07
they'll do case studies, and every one of those sessions will
22:11
end with practical, implementable stuff you can take
22:15
back to the workplace the next day.
22:17
We call it experiential learning.
22:20
I love that. Or you give people practical
22:24
skills they can use straight away #2 is you form peer groups
22:30
that can continue and support each other.
22:33
And we've got a couple of flagship programmes as well.
22:36
They're the future CFO programme and the CFO programme.
22:40
Now both of those work in roughly the same way, but the
22:43
period's bigger. They run for a year and the two
22:47
hour workshop rather than being every week is once a month.
22:52
So you take this community of a dozen people, we have an intake
22:56
into once 1/4, so a dozen new people every quarter.
23:00
And the only criteria for future CFO is I want to be ACFO in the
23:06
next couple of years. However, I want to see how I can
23:11
knock down all the obstacles that are currently stopping me
23:14
getting there. So we put them into a cohort,
23:17
take them through the programme by the end of 12 months working
23:22
that cohort, you've formed a fairly strong networking group.
23:25
One of the things we do in the very first session, we find out
23:29
what people's individual skill bases are.
23:31
We've got the CFO competency framework and grocery of us,
23:34
everybody on the on the programme taken that how we know
23:38
what everybody's core skills are, the strengths of their
23:41
weaknesses. So in the first session, each
23:45
person gets to present on the area they're strongest in.
23:49
So straight away the whole of that peer group gets to see the
23:53
power of the skills that are combined in the group and all
23:57
the things they can help each other with.
23:59
And then we take them through the programme, they get to know
24:02
each other better as they go through by working together in
24:05
the breakout sessions and so on. And it's it's a really, really
24:09
powerful way of forming community forming, forming
24:14
groups that are potentially lasting much longer than the the
24:19
programme itself. Interesting stuff are that's
24:24
something I want to ask you and this is hinged upon our shared,
24:30
when I say background at PwC and it's something I really
24:33
appreciate that PwC empowered us with.
24:38
That's the PwC professional framework for prison
24:42
professionals. No, it starts with whole
24:45
leadership and business acumen, technical competence, global
24:51
acumen and building relationships.
24:54
So these things that you do, those CFOs speak to all of the
25:00
points, the criteria points between the PwC framework,
25:03
right? There's something that I noticed
25:06
that a lot of RBS CFOs tend to lack, which is pieces.
25:12
And you rightly tell me that's a commercial mindset.
25:16
So I'd love to speak to that. Why is that, you know very much
25:21
lacking amongst a lot of career CF OS and what have you guys
25:25
done at Co CFO to tackle this very, very important problem?
25:32
Why is it lacking? I think in general, when you're
25:36
training to be a chartered accountant or similar
25:40
qualifications, CPA, whatever, you're learning very much
25:45
technical skills around debits and credits around how to
25:50
account for the stuff that other people do.
25:53
Nobody. Now you make you feel old.
29:11
I'm going to say. Wow, focus on this hot product
30:41
and the cash channels. Absolutely.
30:51
You know, there's something I love to say.
30:53
Revenues, vanity, profit to sanity, and cash is reality.
30:57
If you wish, cash is clean. I guess you you ran into a
31:20
technical issue. It is still the reporting is
31:23
still on, but the Reaver side has this way of finding the
31:26
fluff and removing the fluff so that that's not a profile.
31:30
Did you lose your Internet connection?
31:32
I think it went flaky. Everything froze, then you
31:37
disappeared. So I then clicked the leave
31:40
button and came back in again. OK, OK.
31:43
No worries, I think you can peek back from where you stopped if
31:49
you cannot be collected. Do you collect where you
31:51
stopped? Gosh, what we were talking
31:54
about. OK.
31:56
I remember, I know it was a question that I made an improv
32:01
on. So I think I'll just proceed to
32:03
the next question. I think that.
32:05
Yeah, that's probably the best bet and see where we get to.
32:07
You might you might have to edit something out of an appropriate
32:10
stop point. So yeah, I've got a feeling I
32:14
was still talking after we'd lost the connection.
32:17
So. Oh.
32:18
OK, I think you're talking. Inside my end anyway.
32:21
You were talking about the commercial mindset.
32:22
You know, I talked about the. Yeah, that's right.
32:24
That's mindset. Business acumen, Yeah, yeah.
32:27
So do you want to add anything to it or should we proceed to
32:30
the next question? Proceed to the next question.
32:34
OK, OK, OK, let's go. So let's talk about the
32:38
technology in finance, a very, very big theme in my
32:43
broadcasters, AI in business. Again, when you look at the
32:47
subtitle of the forecast, it is growth mindset, leadership and
32:52
business insights. So you, Acro CFO, navigate the
32:58
fast changing technology landscape from AI to the digital
33:04
transformations. So like what trends should
33:07
finance leaders prioritise to see where bands are going into
33:11
the future? And of course, to me, valuable
33:13
and valuable. OK, right.
33:17
So, yeah, you're at the core of my role these days and grow CFO
33:21
and I am spending less time doing the mentoring sorts of
33:26
things and more time being head of tech partnerships.
33:30
And we're talking to a lot of tech companies in all areas of
33:36
the finance landscape, doing webinars with them and podcasts
33:40
and so on. And one of the nice things for
33:42
me is it's keeping me really up to date with what's going on.
33:45
And tech is moving at a phenomenal rate.
33:50
Yeah. But one of the interesting
33:52
things for me is that in certain areas, we're still juggling with
33:58
the same problems that I was dealing with 25 years ago in
34:01
PwC. I'm seeing in the order to cash
34:04
and the purchase to pay space, the transactional finance parts,
34:09
really significant progress with AI agents making a big
34:13
difference. But bring this back into what's
34:18
the FP and a team doing planning, budgeting,
34:20
forecasting. What about the cool reporting
34:22
team and faster close and things like that.
34:25
They are fundamentally playing with the same problems that we
34:30
were talking to them about 25 years ago when I was part of the
34:34
I Analytics practise in PwC. Back then, 25 years ago, we were
34:39
talking to one or two clients about moving away from a budget
34:44
to having a rolling forecast. Blowing up the budget was the
34:48
theme and in the other part of the analytics practise, we were
34:51
talking to businesses about faster clothes, particularly
34:55
quoted companies that needed to report to the Stock Exchange
34:58
once 1/4 letting them understand that reporting faster meant an
35:02
awful lot in terms of their credibility, things that the the
35:07
way the market looked at them and no move on 25 years.
35:12
Have we seen significant change to move to rolling forecasts?
35:17
No, we haven't. We still talk about it and think
35:19
it's the the future. Have we seen significant change
35:23
with fast lows? No, we haven't.
35:25
We run a survey and grow CFO probably about 18 months ago now
35:31
and found that the vast majority of companies do not close them
35:34
on then before work day five. And there's a whole ramp of
35:38
companies that still failed to close before work day 10.
35:43
Wow. So nothing's changed.
35:45
And that that then brings me back to tech and where are we at
35:50
the moment? And there's a lot happening,
35:53
huge number of innovations going on, huge number of things we can
35:57
take advantage of. I'm seeing a little bit of
36:01
analysis paralysis in the literally so much is happening,
36:08
people don't know where to start.
36:11
One of the nice things that we're doing through, through
36:13
some of the things we do in gross CFO, through the web
36:15
analysis, through the tech showcases, is that we are
36:19
showing people the art of the possible.
36:21
And we're taking away this thing that we talk about called AI
36:26
into the practical. What can you do with it at the
36:29
moment? That's that's really
36:31
interesting. You go into those core areas,
36:36
planning, budgeting, forecasting, reporting.
36:38
What is it that's still stopping us all moving forward?
36:41
And it's not the technology. And this is where CF OS have
36:46
really got to be on their game. I think the biggest set of
36:49
skills ACFO needs in the future, the change of management skills.
36:54
You can have the greatest AI tools in the world, but if it's
36:57
garbage in, it's garbage out. You can have the greatest set of
37:02
AI agents in the world, but if there are bottlenecks in your
37:06
processors caused by people you, you're not going to close the
37:09
books any faster or do a better forecast.
37:11
If you've got to say, well, the reason we don't close till
37:14
working day 5 is, well, we've got to wait for all of the
37:17
invoices to be in from all of our suppliers and process
37:20
properly so we can close the books.
37:23
AI is not going to make any difference to that.
37:25
This is sort your systems out so you can accrue for what you know
37:29
you've ordered. Therefore, you can work on some
37:33
very good estimates of what the month that monthly costs are
37:36
going to be in. Close the books earlier.
37:39
It's changing people, it's changing process and it's
37:43
changing mindset. At the moment again again we'll
37:47
go back to mindset. What skill set?
37:49
Tool set? The result of the tool set is
37:51
only as good as the mindset and the skill set of the individual
37:55
tool set I love. And it is in any sort of change,
38:00
there are three elements. There are people, there are
38:03
process, and there are systems. You change the systems without
38:08
changing the people or the process, you get nowhere.
38:12
So the great CFO will know how to work with their people, how
38:19
to get the best out of their people, how to get their people
38:24
really involved in the change, looking at how do we make things
38:28
work better around here, getting them involved in the solution,
38:34
working together as a team. The technology by itself will
38:39
not get you anywhere. It's also two sets.
38:46
Yeah. And you know when you look at
38:49
this from your own experience, what have been the major
38:53
bottlenecks in the cut off procedure and the cut off
38:57
process for organisations? Gosh, it always tends to be
39:06
around waiting for bits of information in that cut off.
39:12
Accrawls. Yeah, it's accruals.
39:15
It's waiting for somebody to approve something.
39:18
And really when you're you're looking at that close process, I
39:23
think you've got to go back to the basics.
39:25
You're going to get that huge, huge roll of brown paper out.
39:30
You've got a blue tacket to the wall and you then go to attack
39:33
it with post it notes and start saying what happens, what's the
39:38
process here, who does what and when?
39:41
And until you understand that whole process and where all the
39:44
handoffs are, you aren't going to get anywhere in terms of
39:47
changing it. It's always handoffs that could
39:53
have been done simpler or easier, and bits of the process
39:57
that have been put in because we needed it three years ago.
40:03
Nobody. Once you put something into a
40:04
process because it was dealing with some peculiarity,
40:08
historically, nobody ever challenges taking it back out
40:11
again. So processes tend to get a
40:15
little bit top heavy, a little bit clumsy.
40:18
We never go back and really review them and simplify them.
40:22
Interesting stuff. You know you also run app will
40:25
be consulting and coaching supporting businesses as both
40:30
the coach and fractional CFO. So why do you think this blended
40:35
model is so powerful for SM, ES or stack UPS or scale UPS?
40:42
Yeah, I don't do much of that these days.
40:45
I am pretty much tied up with doing things with gross CFO and
40:49
any ages of such that I would have more time outside of that
40:53
to myself. So I'm I'm not actually actively
40:56
going around looking for those other clients.
41:00
But if people come to me and I like what they're doing and
41:04
think I can help, but great, we'll do something.
41:08
What makes that a great combination?
41:10
I think if you say that you've got that skill yourself of
41:15
having taken a business from nowhere to somewhere and Dan and
41:19
I've done that with Bruce CFO over the last six years, helped
41:22
my daughter put her business together, help wife put her
41:25
business together. There's something of a sweet
41:29
spot of how do you get a small business off the ground and
41:32
actually turn it into something. And then to be able to do that
41:37
with a finance mindset as well. I don't know.
41:41
That adds a much an extra layer. You know, there are there's lots
41:45
and lots and lots of coaches out there.
41:47
Most coaches will take the approach of talking to you about
41:50
a problem and asking you questions to to the way that you
41:53
they try to get you to solve your own problem.
41:55
Yes, it's an approach, but I think a mentor is something
41:59
different. A mentor is somebody who's been
42:03
there, done that, built the T-shirt.
42:04
And if you've done that, you have the financial skill set on
42:08
top. You understand the money, you
42:11
understand that you've got to have revenue to pay the costs.
42:16
You've got to be able to understand what costs are
42:18
necessary, what costs are not necessary, be able to give the
42:22
sensible forecast when it's necessary.
42:25
If you can join those coaching skills with the mentoring
42:28
skills, with the finance skills, I think it's a very powerful
42:31
package for the small business. Absolutely, yeah, personal.
42:36
That's why the fractional model is very, very powerful.
42:40
You know these small businesses cannot afford a full time
42:45
finance experts are once you dedicate that time, you know,
42:50
fractionally to them, it goes along where you're helping them
42:53
to start up, scale up and sell out.
42:57
So let's talk about the. It's the sort of business I like
43:01
working with, even before that scale, where they'd want a
43:04
fractional you. We've probably got to the stage
43:07
you want a fractional CFO because you're going through
43:10
some sort of fundraise or something like that.
43:12
You suddenly realise you need more than the bookkeeper.
43:15
I think something appeals to me about the stage before you even
43:18
get there and you're trying to put that business together.
43:23
You're trying to make your first sales, you're trying to figure
43:26
out what your customers want. I love that bit of the journey.
43:30
Yeah, that's a foundation. Yeah, of course.
43:33
Yeah. Either foundation that destroyed
43:34
what kind of writers do. So it's an essential to get the
43:38
foundation right. If you put some finance skills
43:41
into that, that very early piece that's that's pretty unique
43:44
because most fractionals are looking at the companies
43:48
probably 7 figures already. Yeah, in that group phase, the
43:52
only one to accelerate what is already in motion, I can
43:56
understand, you know, but different strokes and different
43:59
folks. What I want to delve into the
44:01
Next 100 Days, It's something you're very passionate about
44:04
you, you love the terminology. And of course, you've got the
44:07
Next 100 Days podcast. You always emphasised on 100
44:12
Days springs for transformation. So how can finance leaders and
44:16
entrepreneurs apply this to accelerate results without
44:20
burnout? That's it without burnout.
44:25
Well, that's why it is 100 days, because if it's longer than 100
44:28
days, you do burnout. OK.
44:31
I think it's looking back over at a career where I've done lots
44:34
of projects. And if you've got a project
44:36
that's got a reasonably big scope and you start going, you
44:40
get to a point where you you kind of run out of steam or you
44:43
do burnout or you lose the reason why you did this in the
44:46
1st place. And quite often that point that
44:49
you run out of steam is around about the 1900 day mark.
44:54
So I've developed my own philosophy that says you pick up
45:00
a scope for whatever it is you want to do.
45:02
You don't put too much in it, but you put enough in it to be
45:07
able to go at it for about 90 days.
45:10
You get to the end of that, you look at what you've achieved,
45:13
you review and you plan again for another 9000 days, OK?
45:20
So it comes down to biting things off into manageable
45:23
chunks. So you don't start getting at
45:26
the end of, if you go to 100 days, 110 days, 120 days, you
45:32
don't get the diminishing returns going after the same
45:35
goals, objectives you've replanned.
45:37
So you can focus on something else.
45:39
There's also a little bit of something we talked about
45:43
earlier. You don't know what you don't
45:45
know. I took us back into 2020.
45:48
We didn't know lockdown was going to hit.
45:50
I didn't know I was going to meet Dan Wells.
45:52
I didn't know gross CFO was coming along.
45:55
I don't think you can plan for two years, for three years.
46:00
So you don't what's out there. But you do know if I asked you,
46:05
Adam Ola, what's the one thing if you could do it would make a
46:10
difference in the next 100 days, you could probably give me a
46:14
very good answer. Absolutely.
46:18
You know, what is that one thing?
46:21
There's another thing I'll add to 90 days is you can go 100 an
46:26
inch in 100 directions or you can go 100 miles in One
46:30
Direction. So don't think of five things of
46:35
10 things that you want to happen in the next 100 days.
46:37
Think of one thing. What is the one thing that's
46:40
going to be the game changer for you?
46:43
And focus on that. Work on it for 100 days and
46:46
you'll get somewhere. I love that 100 days is up.
46:50
Review plan again, ask that same question.
46:54
What's the one thing that's going to get me somewhere in the
46:56
next 100 days? Go work on it.
46:59
Interesting stuff. It works the planning and it
47:03
works from business planning and it works in the pro world.
47:08
Project management is essentially in that process.
47:12
What's your favourite project management tool?
47:15
Piece of paper. Well, for me it's it's my
47:19
calendar. I love calendar so much.
47:22
I think that's the most important subscription I've ever
47:26
had. What do I use in terms of tools?
47:29
I've used Trello in the past as a project management tool.
47:33
I've used back in bigger project world to use Microsoft projects.
47:37
Was absolutely hated and currently I use Notion.
47:41
Yeah. Notion, but OK.
47:43
There's a difference between managing tasks and managing
47:46
activities and thinking about what needs to be done.
47:51
Thinking about what needs to be done.
47:53
Big piece of paper posted notes? Stick them on, move them around
47:57
till you've got a plan. Can't be this?
48:01
I think you like us. Have you heard of Asana?
48:04
Then yes, our marketing team uses uses Asana.
48:08
Yeah, yeah, I think you've got to have that freedom of just
48:12
being able to think when you're in the planning phase, what do
48:16
you use to plan the project versus what do you use to task
48:20
manage the project. And they're two different
48:22
things. Absolutely.
48:25
And of course, I hope our audience are taking a very,
48:28
very, very bad notes. Let's let's talk about, you
48:32
know, beyond the spreadsheets, beyond the tools, what are the
48:37
personal qualities or the leadership traits, skills and
48:42
mindset that separate an average CFO from a successful and
48:48
transformational CFO? It's the ability to lead a team.
48:56
For leadership, no wonder PwC put it right at the top.
49:00
Yeah, it is. It's the ability to lead A-Team.
49:02
The the CF OS success I believe isn't just down to them, it's
49:07
down to the people they have around them.
49:09
It's down to taking those people on a journey and achieving
49:13
something together. So you have to be able to lead.
49:19
That's a very difficult question.
49:23
That's all depends. So the answer is going to be
49:26
different for virtually everybody.
49:28
It's going to depend on business circumstances, what's necessary
49:31
and understanding the needs. And I think it comes down to and
49:37
I believe strategies just down to one thing.
49:39
It's stop, start, continue. What are you going to stop
49:42
doing? What are you going to start
49:43
doing? What are you going to continue
49:45
doing? But I'd flip that question
49:48
around if I was giving practical advice to ACFO today as to what
49:52
should they be doing personally to augment where they are.
49:58
We've got in gross CFO something called the CFO competency
50:00
framework mentioned it earlier and you can go to our website
50:04
and take the competency framework and it's you you self
50:08
assess yourself across 40. Some of them are the commercial
50:14
acumen that we talked about earlier.
50:16
Some of them are the change skills, some of them are the
50:19
mergers, acquisitions, fundraising skills.
50:22
And what you can get is a profile of yourself across 45
50:26
skills. And you can start working out
50:29
where your own personal strengths and gaps are a great
50:34
way of deciding how do I want to get better skills wise in the
50:38
next 12 months. Have a look at that assessment
50:42
and see where you where you're falling short versus where you
50:44
think you should be or where your peers are.
50:49
Who mentored you on your own way up and how has?
50:55
You mentored. You mentoring others also shift
50:58
your legacy in finance leadership.
51:03
I would say I don't know I've ever had a formal mentor, but a
51:10
lot go back to PwC days. In PwC consulting.
51:15
Back when I was there, you had a line manager and you had a
51:19
mentor. Your line manager may well
51:21
change frequently depending what you're doing.
51:24
And on top of that, you might have a project manager as well
51:26
that you're working too. But your mentor stayed with you.
51:30
So you're always talking about skills development, career
51:33
progression and so on with your mentor.
51:38
And actually I got into the position of really liking that,
51:41
and that's when I started mentoring more junior people
51:44
within PwC. So that's really sold me on the
51:49
power of that relationship. But I guess I've always had
51:53
people around that I've been able to talk to about things and
51:58
bounce ideas off. So looking into the future, what
52:04
was the vision for not just the next 100 days, but maybe the
52:09
next 100 weeks and maybe 10/10/10 years?
52:14
Like what exact you, you know, what role do you see for CFO
52:19
playing in the global landscape, the global finance landscape in
52:24
the years to come? What really excites you about
52:27
the future? Gross CFO is the easy bit
52:30
because I can see where we're going.
52:32
I can see working with bigger finance teams, a lot more
52:37
finance teams. We're going to have a bigger
52:41
footprint outside of the UK. We've already got a reasonable
52:44
footprint in the US, but that's where there's a huge, huge
52:48
opportunity for growth. So I see gross CFO growing quite
52:52
rapidly. Where do I see me in the next
52:54
couple of years? Well, I'm coming to that age
52:57
where I've got to make a very interesting decision of who I
53:00
retire moment. The one thing that's stopping me
53:04
from saying yes, I'll retire is so much tech change going on
53:09
and. I.
53:11
Don't. It's exciting and I don't want
53:13
to lose where things are. I really enjoy being head of
53:17
partnerships and having the opportunity to go and talk to
53:20
these tech companies every day of the week.
53:23
They'll run a webinar every couple of weeks to see the
53:25
latest things that they're they're up to.
53:27
And certainly in the next couple of years, I think there's going
53:30
to be so much change going on, but I want to stay with that.
53:34
Interesting stuff. So you talk about gratitude.
53:39
Gratitude is also close to my heart.
53:41
And of course for me to use a very big thank you for being on
53:44
the show today. But I will not let you go
53:47
without putting you through the Pacific Ring of Fire.
53:50
I have 5 big fireground questions for you.
53:54
OK, let's go. OK, so.
54:01
That's from 2 good Geordie lads from our neck of the woods and
54:04
deck. Number one, one book every CFO
54:08
chicky. Well, to your Geordie's somebody
54:13
who I would regard regard as a little bit of a mentor, Michael
54:16
Heppel. Michael Heppel, How to Be
54:18
Brilliant. The best personal development
54:20
book ever written. Interesting stuff.
54:23
So the next one is the biggest financial mistake businesses
54:28
make in their first one. Quantity.
54:31
Are probably spending too much money and waiting till they've
54:37
got something they think is perfect before they try to sell
54:40
it. Minimum viable product.
54:42
Get it out there and find if anybody wants to buy it.
54:47
Nice coffee, tea, or something stronger when you punch in the
54:52
numbers. Coffee OK, preferably freshly
54:56
ground from the beans. Ha ha ha, a guided coffee one
55:00
underrated soft skill every finance leader must master.
55:07
Underrated soft skill? Gosh.
55:11
Thing is, these days I don't think there are any underrated
55:15
soft skills left, but storytelling is certainly the
55:20
big one. It's getting away from talking
55:24
numbers and talking language that only accountants understand
55:28
to talk in the language of the rest of the business.
55:31
I love that I I leave for that. It's on my LinkedIn profile,
55:35
Storytelling for impact, so proud of that.
55:38
It's very important in this ageing time and I appreciate
55:41
what one of my guests told me, she said.
55:43
I am a modern day business philosopher, so picking that
55:46
title and rather did Martin Davis a philosopher.
55:50
Wow. And I've heard the very last
55:52
question is, if you could give your younger self one piece of
55:56
advice when starting at PwC, what would?
55:59
That advice? Enjoy the journey, enjoy the
56:05
journey. It comes back to you don't know
56:08
what's around the corner, you don't know what's you can't plan
56:11
beyond 100 days. I'd say lots of my bits of my
56:14
career have happened as much by accident, certainly about being
56:18
in the right place at the right time.
56:20
And yet we spend so much time thinking about oh, when, if only
56:26
this would happen, then everything be all right.
56:28
Well now enjoy the journey, enjoy what you've got now and
56:33
what's happening and be in the moment.
56:35
Don't be always thinking, oh, it'll be great when we've got to
56:38
this goal or that goal or the other goal.
56:42
I think that's fantastic piece of advice.
56:44
And of course with that I come to my line that I love so much.
56:50
When a person shares their time with you, they share their life
56:53
with you. The course, the SI uniform
56:55
measure in life this time. And of course, an attitude of
56:58
gratitude is good attitude. So for me, it is love and
57:01
respect to you for being on the show today, The King Games
57:06
podcast and Diary of the CFOI do not take your time for granted.
57:11
I very much appreciate you know, you spending that fraction of
57:15
the life with us to be sharing insights, educating and
57:18
motivating. This means a lot.
57:20
You're highly, highly appreciated and of course,
57:23
looking forward to teacher collaborations and the first
57:26
guys I did feature on Kevin, Apple forecast those CFO guys.
57:32
I'm going to put it in the description.
57:35
Go watch it and press the meet. You as always conceive the
57:41
stratified and actually always go for something in your life
57:44
right across your meet. It's goodbye, Akron.
57:46
Kevin, I don't know if you want to leave a shout out to anybody
57:49
or if you want to, you know, if you've any closer remarks, but a
57:52
press for me it's goodbye. I think just thank you hugely
57:57
for having me on your podcast today.
57:59
It's been a really great experience.
58:02
Really enjoyed chatting to you and talking about stuff that I
58:04
hope is of value to the audience.
58:06
Thank you once again. Wow.
58:08
And of course, you're welcome once again.
58:10
You're honest welcome actually, and it's not goodbye, but it is.
58:14
See you guys again for me and from AI and KA.