Latest / Trumponomics / Episode 24: The World's Best Country for Working Women

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Episode 24: The World's Best Country for Working Women · Trumponomics

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Speaker 1: If you're a man and you're listening to this episode,
0:03
Speaker 1: don't stop, because utopia for women is really a utopia
0:08
Speaker 1: for men to This episode is brought to you by
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Speaker 1: Trading involves risk and may not be appropriate for all industors. Hi,
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Speaker 1: and welcome back to Bloomberg Benchmark, a podcast about the
0:48
Speaker 1: global economy. It is Thursday, February eleventh. I'm Tori Stillwell,
0:53
Speaker 1: an economics reporter with Bloomberg News in DC, and I
0:56
Speaker 1: am joined by my co host Akiedo in Tokyo or
0:59
Speaker 1: she's the temporary bureau chief. Hello, Hey, Tory, how's it
1:05
Speaker 1: going pretty good? How are things out in Japan? It's
1:08
Speaker 1: been really frantic. It's good to hear your voice again.
1:13
Speaker 1: What's been the most frantic? What's been the craziest thing
1:16
Speaker 1: that we should tell all our listeners about. Oh, my gosh. Well,
1:20
Speaker 1: we had quite a frantic moment in the office just
1:23
Speaker 1: yesterday when the yield on ten year Japanese government bonds
1:28
Speaker 1: slid past zero for the very first time. Uh And
1:32
Speaker 1: since then, over the last two days, they've been kind
1:34
Speaker 1: of hovering back and forth between a slightly positive number
1:39
Speaker 1: and a slightly negative number. Sounds kind of our cane
1:43
Speaker 1: and kind of nerdy, but yeah, in our world of finance,
1:46
Speaker 1: it's such a big deal. Yeah, it's crazy to imagine
1:49
Speaker 1: borrowing money for ten years and not having to pay
1:52
Speaker 1: any interest on that. If only you had the credit
1:55
Speaker 1: worthiness of the Japanese government plus a central bank that
1:59
Speaker 1: was buying tons of your debt, right right exactly? They
2:03
Speaker 1: so nice? Yeah, yeah, well, you know a girl can dream, yes, right, Well,
2:08
Speaker 1: you know, onto our main topic for today. I've been
2:12
Speaker 1: really excited to do this episode for a while since tour.
2:15
Speaker 1: You and I are both women, yes we are, and
2:19
Speaker 1: and we are both women with careers. And when I
2:24
Speaker 1: moved to the US four years ago from Japan, I
2:28
Speaker 1: really felt like the US was just so far ahead
2:30
Speaker 1: of Japan when it came to gender equality and conditions
2:35
Speaker 1: for women in the workplace, and it was just such
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Speaker 1: a fresh breath of air for me to be able
2:40
Speaker 1: to work in uh an environment like that. But the
2:44
Speaker 1: funny thing is that the I guess not that funny.
2:46
Speaker 1: It's kind of sad, but the US is actually much
2:49
Speaker 1: farther behind when you compare it against some advanced economies
2:53
Speaker 1: like Scandinavia. Um, it's just gender equality here still has
2:58
Speaker 1: some work ahead of it, that's right. And so I
3:02
Speaker 1: was kind of thinking, what is it like to work
3:05
Speaker 1: in Scandinavia as a woman, you know, in this kind
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Speaker 1: of like utopian heaven. And lucky for us, we have
3:13
Speaker 1: an amazing reporter in Oslo who also happens to be
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Speaker 1: a woman. And since Dan's traveling in London this week,
3:20
Speaker 1: it's going to be a conversation this week amongst the
3:24
Speaker 1: three of us young women. And let me interject here
3:27
Speaker 1: and say, if you're a man and you're listening to
3:29
Speaker 1: this episode, don't stop because utopia for women is really
3:35
Speaker 1: a utopia for men too, and we'll talk about that
3:38
Speaker 1: a little bit more later. Let's introduce our guests for today.
3:42
Speaker 1: Selea Molson's on the line with us all the way
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Speaker 1: from Norway. Hey, Seleia, how's it going good? How are
3:47
Speaker 1: you lucky? Good? Thanks, I'm so glad you were able
3:50
Speaker 1: to join us today. Yeah. Great, really cleared to join you.
3:54
Speaker 1: We I feel like we always talk about the weather,
3:56
Speaker 1: but I've never been to Norway. So what's the weather
3:58
Speaker 1: like in Norway? Right? Yes, it's um not as cold
4:02
Speaker 1: as it was last month. That was probably the coldest
4:05
Speaker 1: winter or January that I've had in Norway since I
4:08
Speaker 1: moved here four years ago. How cold are we talking here? Um?
4:13
Speaker 1: It was like minus seven or eight for two weeks straight. Yeah. Well,
4:23
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit more about you, Sally. How
4:26
Speaker 1: where are you born? Where'd you grow up? Where all
4:28
Speaker 1: have you lived? Yeah? I'm from Cincinnati, Ohio, born and
4:32
Speaker 1: raised in the wonderful Midwest, which is where I went
4:35
Speaker 1: to college. It's where I landed my first job, which
4:37
Speaker 1: was at a reasonable business paper in Columbus. I ended
4:40
Speaker 1: up in London in two thousand and eight, just months
4:44
Speaker 1: before the financial crisis hit, which is an interesting time
4:47
Speaker 1: to be in a financial capital. Yeah. I did my
4:50
Speaker 1: master's there, I had my my son there and UM.
4:54
Speaker 1: In two thousand and eleven, my family and I escaped
4:56
Speaker 1: from that UM and came to Norway, where the country
5:00
Speaker 1: these massive oil riches have helped the Norway avoid the
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Speaker 1: same financial calamities that the rest of the world experienced
5:07
Speaker 1: in two dozen, ten and eleven UM. And I've been
5:09
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg's Oblive euro for almost three years now, so
5:13
Speaker 1: together we represent the US, Japan, Norway, the UK Tory.
5:21
Speaker 1: Have you lived anywhere than the South I think cats
5:26
Speaker 1: is like its country. Well, that's a lot of countries there, um,
5:33
Speaker 1: you know, so they coincidentally you live in the world's
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Speaker 1: best country for working women. That's according to the World
5:40
Speaker 1: Economic Forms Gender Gap Report, where Norway ranked number one
5:45
Speaker 1: in economic participation and opportunity. And that's out of forty
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Speaker 1: five countries. So that's pretty amazing. And for some context here,
5:54
Speaker 1: the US ranked number six in this sub end index,
5:58
Speaker 1: which is pretty good. I don't know where the southwood
6:02
Speaker 1: rank there, but you know what average America's number six.
6:06
Speaker 1: Japan was was one hundred and six, which was worse
6:12
Speaker 1: than a lot of a lot of developing countries. That's
6:15
Speaker 1: really really surprising. I had no idea it was that bad. Yeah, yeah,
6:19
Speaker 1: I was not surprised. Pretty horrible. And the UK was
6:23
Speaker 1: forty three, which was a lot worse than I had expected.
6:26
Speaker 1: To so cele Yeah, what are some things that popped
6:30
Speaker 1: out at you when you moved to Norway? Because you know,
6:33
Speaker 1: this episode is all about what it's like to be
6:37
Speaker 1: in the world's best country for working women, So what
6:41
Speaker 1: are some things that illustrate that for you? Just how
6:44
Speaker 1: great women have it there? You know, I'd actually say
6:48
Speaker 1: that what stood up to me most was seeing men
6:52
Speaker 1: pushing strollers. If you pick any weekday afternoon, walked down
6:55
Speaker 1: the street, you'll see loads of fathers that are out
6:58
Speaker 1: and about with their small kids. When I moved here,
7:01
Speaker 1: my son was fifty months old, and as I was
7:03
Speaker 1: getting to know people, know how things work, um, we
7:06
Speaker 1: would show up to these different play groups around Oslo
7:09
Speaker 1: and there were always a couple of fathers in the room,
7:13
Speaker 1: which I found really fascinating. You know, you talked to
7:15
Speaker 1: them and say, yeah, I've taken three or four months
7:17
Speaker 1: off for paternity leave, um, and the kid would be
7:20
Speaker 1: six seven months old. And to me, what that meant
7:23
Speaker 1: was that for each dad that's out there with their
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Speaker 1: small kid, there is a mom who was able to
7:28
Speaker 1: go back to work a little sooner continue to climb
7:31
Speaker 1: up the career ladder rather than take a few years
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Speaker 1: off to have one or two kids and then end
7:36
Speaker 1: up falling behind as your male peers race ahead of you. Well,
7:40
Speaker 1: we were brainstorming for this episode. So you called it
7:43
Speaker 1: a men's liberation movement. Tell us what you mean. Well,
7:47
Speaker 1: in the early nineties, Norway introduced a daddy quota for
7:52
Speaker 1: parental benefits. So the total leave that you get is
7:55
Speaker 1: between fifty and sixty weeks off that can be split
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Speaker 1: pretty much any which way between the parents. I mean,
8:00
Speaker 1: obviously the beginning is reserved for the mother, and then
8:03
Speaker 1: there are ten weeks that are called the daddy quota,
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Speaker 1: which if the father does not take that time off,
8:09
Speaker 1: those ten weeks are lost. So it's basically money that
8:12
Speaker 1: you're losing. On top of that, the government makes up
8:16
Speaker 1: your salary, so you take time off after having a baby, um,
8:19
Speaker 1: the government will pay about sixty two thousand a year.
8:23
Speaker 1: If you earn more than that, then it's not uncommon
8:26
Speaker 1: for a Norwegian firm to make up the difference and
8:30
Speaker 1: not right there. Having that rule means that there's a
8:34
Speaker 1: working culture where it is acceptable for men and women
8:39
Speaker 1: to be away for six months to a year because
8:42
Speaker 1: they've just had a baby. But then after the first
8:45
Speaker 1: year year to have it's gone by. It could be
8:47
Speaker 1: the father or the mother who takes time off when
8:49
Speaker 1: schools are closed or your kid is sick. It's kind
8:53
Speaker 1: of built into the working environments that you know, you
8:56
Speaker 1: take time off for your kids, and there's no role
8:58
Speaker 1: of the eye, there's no sign dying. Oh god, they're
9:00
Speaker 1: gone again. I have two kids. Right. It sounds like
9:04
Speaker 1: the entrance and exit ramps for both men and women
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Speaker 1: are just really smooth in Norway and really make it
9:10
Speaker 1: possible to sort of take back up where you left off. Yeah,
9:14
Speaker 1: and it also makes you feel as a woman that
9:17
Speaker 1: you won't necessarily get passed over for being a woman,
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Speaker 1: because hiring a man could also mean six months eight
9:24
Speaker 1: months of parental leave. Yeah, you said that you were
9:28
Speaker 1: hired as a because you were taking over for someone
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Speaker 1: who is on maternity leave. Right. Yeah. I was brought
9:36
Speaker 1: in as a contract worker full time to take over
9:41
Speaker 1: when my predecessor UM took a year off when she
9:44
Speaker 1: had her baby, and um it was kind of dangled
9:48
Speaker 1: to me that you know, will hire you if you're
9:49
Speaker 1: good this kind of thing, and to me, I just thought,
9:51
Speaker 1: one year at Boomberg will not hurt so even if
9:54
Speaker 1: they can't hire me, at least I've got one year
9:55
Speaker 1: under my belt. Um, and I was very, very lucky
9:58
Speaker 1: where they were able to keep me on board. Yeah,
10:01
Speaker 1: it sounds like it worked out really well, which is
10:04
Speaker 1: a way for a lot of people. It's how they
10:06
Speaker 1: get their their first bit of work experience, they get
10:09
Speaker 1: their foot in the door. You've never had, I guess
10:13
Speaker 1: a situation where you've been a working mom in the US.
10:16
Speaker 1: Then No. I had my son after I left in London. Wow,
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Speaker 1: So what I mean, how different do you think your
10:22
Speaker 1: life would be if that weren't the case? You know,
10:26
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I would have spent more
10:29
Speaker 1: time at home and not gone back to work as
10:32
Speaker 1: soon as I did. I still took more time off
10:34
Speaker 1: in the average the region. I went back to work
10:35
Speaker 1: when my son was around three, simply because we moved,
10:38
Speaker 1: you know, ye countries in between. But I guess I'll
10:42
Speaker 1: find out what it's like to be a working mom
10:44
Speaker 1: pretty soon. I'll be moving to the DC Bureau for
10:47
Speaker 1: Bloomberg hang out with me. Yeah. Yeah, So you know,
10:52
Speaker 1: earlier we talked about how when men take time off,
10:55
Speaker 1: it becomes a lot easier for women to come back
10:58
Speaker 1: into the workforce too. For a little bit more context, here,
11:02
Speaker 1: in Norway, sevent of women and eight percent of men
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Speaker 1: participate in the workforce, So women are very close to
11:11
Speaker 1: being as equally involved in the labor market as our men. Uh.
11:15
Speaker 1: In Japan, only sixty six percent of women work compared
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Speaker 1: with eighty five for men. So that's a pretty big
11:24
Speaker 1: gap there. I think the US is somewhere in between.
11:28
Speaker 1: And I think another way to think about this is
11:30
Speaker 1: although Japan's population is shrinking and companies are scrambling to
11:35
Speaker 1: find workers for all kinds of jobs, there's this huge
11:38
Speaker 1: pool of underutilized workers that really does make for a
11:44
Speaker 1: real economic case for governments to create better working environments
11:48
Speaker 1: for women. Yeah. I know, a couple of different groups
11:51
Speaker 1: have all talked about this is a way to combat
11:54
Speaker 1: that productivity problem that we have talked about on the
11:57
Speaker 1: show so many times. Um. You know, as we get
12:01
Speaker 1: economies that are aging and that are maturing, um, one
12:06
Speaker 1: untapped pool for them really is women and drawing more
12:11
Speaker 1: women into the workforce. Uh. It's just this vast opportunity
12:16
Speaker 1: that many countries have and they aren't making full use
12:20
Speaker 1: of it yet. Yeah. You know, in terms of economic benefit.
12:25
Speaker 1: What I can say is that the participation of women
12:29
Speaker 1: in the workforce of Norway has gone up from about
12:31
Speaker 1: fifty in the seventies to sev seventy five percent today. UM.
12:36
Speaker 1: And I think that Norway, at least according to the
12:39
Speaker 1: O E C. D UM, Nordic countries in general have
12:43
Speaker 1: some of the smallest gender gaps in the world, and
12:45
Speaker 1: Norway is a star even amongst the Nordics, having made
12:49
Speaker 1: very steady progress closing the gap between men and women
12:53
Speaker 1: by about five percent over the last ten years. It
12:56
Speaker 1: kind of sounds like one of those cases where you know,
12:59
Speaker 1: a government in blements a very progressive policy and it
13:02
Speaker 1: takes a while for the effects to seep through the culture.
13:06
Speaker 1: But at this point it sounds like it's just so
13:09
Speaker 1: normal too for men to take leave, it's so normal
13:12
Speaker 1: for a wife and a husband to equally share the
13:15
Speaker 1: burden of raising a kid, that you don't think twice
13:19
Speaker 1: about it anymore. Yeah, that's true. But in Norway there
13:22
Speaker 1: actually still is some room for improvement. I mean, you
13:26
Speaker 1: can say, like there are more women in the public
13:29
Speaker 1: sector than the private sector. So you look at parliament
13:32
Speaker 1: or even um the leading politicians in the country the
13:35
Speaker 1: Prime Minister, of the Finance minister, Defense minister. They're all women.
13:39
Speaker 1: The heads of the Business Confederation Labor Union are also women. UM.
13:44
Speaker 1: The interesting thing is that this is not a big deal.
13:46
Speaker 1: No one's talking about it how great it is or
13:48
Speaker 1: it's not great. It just is. But when you look
13:51
Speaker 1: at it, yeah, but when you look at the central
13:53
Speaker 1: bank UM or non elected officials, it's mostly men. UM.
13:59
Speaker 1: All through central bankers that we have our men. There
14:02
Speaker 1: are thirteen executives that oversee the nation's serve and Wealth Fund,
14:06
Speaker 1: which is the biggest in the world, and just two
14:09
Speaker 1: of those are women. And those were added very very
14:12
Speaker 1: recently in the last two years. UM. And even if
14:16
Speaker 1: you look at the biggest companies on the also stock exchange,
14:20
Speaker 1: men dominate the executive suites in those companies. This is
14:24
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Speaker 1: for all investors. So there's this really interesting story that
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Speaker 1: we ran out of the Tokyo Bureau just a couple
15:23
Speaker 1: of days ago, UM about this lawmaker who asked for
15:27
Speaker 1: time off from parliament to take care of his newborn baby,
15:32
Speaker 1: and he came under intense fire as a result, really
15:36
Speaker 1: intense criticism all these relatively older lawmakers within his political
15:43
Speaker 1: party where like, oh my gosh, like you can't do that,
15:46
Speaker 1: Like you're a lawmaker, you you can't miss all these
15:49
Speaker 1: very important votes. Um. And so I think as of
15:53
Speaker 1: now he's still not allowed to take paternity leave. It
15:57
Speaker 1: sounds like a pretty different situation from Nora. Way. Well,
16:00
Speaker 1: i'd be nice if if in the US wallmakers didn't
16:04
Speaker 1: want to miss vote. That would be great. So how
16:11
Speaker 1: do you balance the responsibility of taking care of your
16:14
Speaker 1: child with your husband. I'd think it's pretty split fifty fifty. Um.
16:19
Speaker 1: If he gets sick or needs a day off from kindergarten,
16:22
Speaker 1: whichever one of us has a lighter and more flexible workloads,
16:25
Speaker 1: the day willn't be the one to stay home and
16:27
Speaker 1: your your child is five years old, is that right? Yeah,
16:30
Speaker 1: he's five. I have to say that my husband, he's
16:33
Speaker 1: always been interested in being an involved father. But when
16:35
Speaker 1: we were living in the UK, the difference was that
16:39
Speaker 1: in London, circumstances kind of pushed us into the classic
16:42
Speaker 1: nine family. He was working long hours. I had very
16:46
Speaker 1: little time to look for work. You know, I was
16:49
Speaker 1: cooking and cleaning and taking care of our son while
16:52
Speaker 1: he was out bringing home the bacon. But in Norway,
16:56
Speaker 1: but we both have time to be focus at work
16:59
Speaker 1: and at home. Oh that's great. Do you think moving
17:02
Speaker 1: to Norway has changed him in any way, like changed
17:06
Speaker 1: his attitude towards family or or your career. I mean,
17:10
Speaker 1: like I said, he was always part of my career
17:12
Speaker 1: and interest in being involved father. But when it comes
17:16
Speaker 1: to things like the thought of taking an accepted paternity leave.
17:19
Speaker 1: I remember when we first moved here, he thought, oh,
17:21
Speaker 1: I could never stay at home for three or four
17:23
Speaker 1: or five months. But how I think he really wishes
17:26
Speaker 1: that when we had our son back in London, he
17:28
Speaker 1: could have stayed home a little bit longer than he did. Well,
17:32
Speaker 1: it's nice. I mean, it's so great when money isn't
17:35
Speaker 1: really an issue and you're trying to fix these really
17:37
Speaker 1: big social problems like gender equality. And it sounds like
17:40
Speaker 1: Norway has come very close to doing that, not totally
17:45
Speaker 1: fixing it, but it's on the right path. And like
17:47
Speaker 1: we've talked about, they have this gigantic sovereign well fund
17:51
Speaker 1: that's funded by oil. But oil, as most people probably know,
17:57
Speaker 1: hasn't been doing too great lately. So I'm wondering ing. Um,
18:01
Speaker 1: I guess I have like two questions in mind. One
18:03
Speaker 1: is how, if if any if any way, that will
18:08
Speaker 1: impact Norway's implementation and ways that it tries to fix
18:12
Speaker 1: social problems by just really bankrolling everything and having the
18:16
Speaker 1: ability to do that and be, uh, you know what
18:20
Speaker 1: other countries can do that don't have just this these
18:23
Speaker 1: massive amounts of cash to throw around. Is there no
18:26
Speaker 1: hope for them? Yeah, that's a really big questions. Sorry, no,
18:32
Speaker 1: no big deal. I can definitely answer the first. Um.
18:37
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, it's a massive fund eight D ten
18:39
Speaker 1: billion dollars saved away in foreign markets. UM, so that
18:43
Speaker 1: the economy domestically isn't overheated is nothing to to laugh at,
18:47
Speaker 1: and no one else has. It's the biggest serve and
18:48
Speaker 1: wealth fund in the world. Um. But to start with,
18:52
Speaker 1: they use the money widely, the implementing the daddy quota
18:56
Speaker 1: and these kinds of parental benefits where money is not
18:59
Speaker 1: a problem. You're on paternity leave, prontal leave, and you're
19:02
Speaker 1: still earning. That started in the early nineties, so it
19:06
Speaker 1: seems like Norway and even Scandinavia kind of cottoned on
19:09
Speaker 1: to the importance UM and the economic benefits of keeping
19:14
Speaker 1: women in the workforce pretty early. But when it comes
19:18
Speaker 1: to what the effects are of the oil price dropping,
19:22
Speaker 1: Norway is not like countries like Saudi Arabia or even
19:26
Speaker 1: Nigeria where the fiscal budget is very, very dependent on
19:30
Speaker 1: the oil fund. They have so much of it and
19:33
Speaker 1: so much oil revenue that they are now starting to
19:37
Speaker 1: dip into the fund this year to plug budget holes.
19:42
Speaker 1: But it is five billion coroner of seven trillion coroner
19:50
Speaker 1: so far UM, so oil prices won't really affect the
19:55
Speaker 1: benefits in that respect, but there is talk that on
19:58
Speaker 1: the longer term Norway in to be a little less
20:01
Speaker 1: reliance on oil and that could be an adjustment and
20:04
Speaker 1: welfare benefits. What do you think? What do you think
20:08
Speaker 1: you know a country like the U. S should do
20:10
Speaker 1: if you can't tap into this gigantic wealth fund that's
20:15
Speaker 1: funded by oil, which seems pretty likely given given the
20:19
Speaker 1: state of politics here and and sort of the gridlock
20:22
Speaker 1: that we always see in Washington and the inability to
20:24
Speaker 1: get anything done. Yeah, definitely politics everywhere. I think there's
20:29
Speaker 1: still that near in Norway, but across Scandinavia, I mean,
20:32
Speaker 1: scanny of you and the Nordics all rank very, very
20:35
Speaker 1: high when it comes to these gender gap indexes UM
20:39
Speaker 1: and Sweden, Denmark, Finland isems they don't have a massive
20:43
Speaker 1: serve and wealth fund to turn to, but they're still
20:46
Speaker 1: doing pretty well and they I wonder if it's just
20:49
Speaker 1: that they decided earlier that this is important, but also
20:53
Speaker 1: that labor unions have a pretty big voice in these countries,
20:57
Speaker 1: so workers are better able to get what they want. Yeah,
21:01
Speaker 1: and here in the US, the presence of labor unions
21:05
Speaker 1: has been on just a pretty rapid decline over the
21:09
Speaker 1: last few years. You know. So, do you think by
21:12
Speaker 1: that time your five year old son maybe gets married
21:17
Speaker 1: and has his own kids, Norway will be a completely
21:22
Speaker 1: equal country, or maybe women will have taken over. Hopefully
21:25
Speaker 1: by the time my son is is grown up with
21:28
Speaker 1: his own family and kids. I hope that the gender
21:30
Speaker 1: gap is obviously much nearrower in the US. In Norway,
21:35
Speaker 1: I think it seems like from what I hear in
21:39
Speaker 1: the private sector is women are behind. It might not
21:42
Speaker 1: necessarily be because there is a ceiling. It might just
21:45
Speaker 1: be because women choose to go into the public sector.
21:48
Speaker 1: So it kind of is up to women now I
21:51
Speaker 1: think makes stride and do what's left. Yeah, because there's
21:56
Speaker 1: you said that there's um uh. Women work in the
22:00
Speaker 1: public sector in much higher ratios than men, and people
22:05
Speaker 1: typically in the public sector get paid a little bit less, right, Yeah, yeah,
22:09
Speaker 1: they do, but they probably get a little bit more
22:11
Speaker 1: flexibility when it comes to benefit. I guess we should
22:15
Speaker 1: end on that really optimistic note. It's up to Norway's
22:18
Speaker 1: women to lead the world in this brave new world.
22:22
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, thank you, and thanks to all
22:27
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