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Sidecast - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Book 2 Chapter 3 · Mythmakers

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  Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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  creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and
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  today we are continuing our author's journey in Lord of the Rings and we have reached
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  chapter three of the second book in the Fellowship of the Ring and the chapter is called The Ring
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  Goes South. Now you would think if you're in the Northern Hemisphere that if we go south it
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  gets warmer but no this is the chapter that goes further into winter and right up to the top
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  of snowy caradras. So first of all let's look at the structure of this chapter so we've come out
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  of the very long council of Elron structure and we're now in a chapter which is basically in
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  three parts. We have a Rivendell section where they're preparing to go on the journey. We have
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  middle section in the sandwich when they are out in the wild so we see the Fellowship
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  working together for the first time and then we have the section where they climb the mountain
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  and our turn back. So the first thing to notice as this chapter begins is that we go into the Hobbit
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  council after the council of Elron and I would say this is a bit like the comedic recap of the
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  previous chapter though there is some decisions taken and some delightful new information given us
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  but we get here particularly the beginnings or elaboration on the Pippin and Gandalf duo
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  which we're going to see throughout the entirety of the Lord of the Rings where Pippin has his
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  immortal line about them needing a person of intelligence to go on the on the quest and Gandalf
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  says well that rules you out doesn't it. We also get the sort of feeling from the other Hobbits
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  that they just took so long and really didn't decide anything. It's a bit like the reaction Pippin
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  and Mary have with justification to the moot, the end moot that's coming on later. We also get
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  some very important things said by Bilbo so it may be a sort of funny recap of what's gone before
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  but we do get a very poignant thing that Bilbo says because Frodo is facing his journey and Bilbo says
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  you know to have you thought of an ending of your story and Frodo says yes several and all are
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  dark and unpleasant and Bilbo immediately says oh no that won't do, books ought to have good endings
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  how would this do and they all settled down and lived together happily ever after
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  and one of the most important concepts in Tolkien's writing is the Eucatastrophe which is
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  a sudden reversal of good, something turning good out of seeming disaster. Though it's notable
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  that Sam adds the poignant and where will they live that's what I often wonder which again
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  foreshadows the end because indeed not everybody gets to live happily ever after in the Shire
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  there is a different ending for Frodo and for Bilbo. We also get some fragments of poetry here
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  when Winter first begins to bite and stones crack in the frosty night when pools are black and trees
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  are bare at his evil in the wild to fare, underlining Bilbo's role here as the sort of repository
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  of wisdom. So we have some sections in this but which leap over passages of time and this
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  is very necessary because you're not going to itemize moment by moment what is basically two-thirds
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  of a year of story. So we get here the sense or the summary of Rivendell as a haven.
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  It feels a bit like they're on leave from the war and it must have reminded Tolkien when he wrote
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  this of the moments when he would have been on leave from the front line in the First World War
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  or even when he had his children who were in the forces in the Second World War coming home to
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  visit away from danger. But you don't want to let the tension drop and he sustains it here by making
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  this ominous note but low in the south one star Sean red. So they're going south and that's where
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  the one star shines red. This is a way of not letting all the air out of your story so that it ends
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  up being flabby keeping it tense and taught. So if you are going to have an element of relaxation
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  or recuperation in a story do remember to keep the tension running in some way.
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  So we get after this moment when they've had some time off nearly two months is described.
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  I remember when I first read this thinking why are they waiting two months? I couldn't understand it
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  in a way I'm still not entirely sure why it takes two months. I know that they are seeking extra
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  information but I think the answer may be more to do with the date that Tolkien wanted them to set
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  out on than anything else but I don't know what do you think. But anyway it does give them time
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  to send out messengers and this gives us the wider picture of what is happening in the world around
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  and there is a theme in this chapter about who sees the bigger picture. There are hints always
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  that Elrond, Aragon, Gandalf, Legolas sees the bigger picture and Sam, Pippin and
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  the Hobbit's Bar Frodo are sort of more close focused living in the moment but it's also used this
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  chapter this section in this chapter to remind us of certain things that Tolkien wants to foreshadow.
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  So we've got Gollum mentioned again remember we've not actually met Gollum in person yet but he's
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  been popping up again and again as a character and we also get an answer to what happened to
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  the Black Riders which can be summed up as they're down but not defeated. So once the messengers come
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  back Elrond is ready to send everybody out and this is where we get one of the Elrond ceremonial
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  moments he summons Frodo and gives in the chance second chance to say if he wants to go. Again this
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  is important that he's undertaking this of his own free will and this is where he gathers
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  the fellowship and what I like about this section after we get the sort of courtly role call of
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  Aragon saying may I accompany you again and with that kind of thing we get Pippin's protest about
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  being left off the list and this bathos is bringing it down to the level of ordinary people I think
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  is what keeps the Lord of the Rings which feet firmly on the ground and Pippin has the particularly
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  powerful protest that he will follow anyway and he has to be sent home tied in a sack
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  it is left off the list and this is persuasive enough for Elrond for him to then announce okay Pippin
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  and Mary you're on the team except his words for this are now the tale of nine is filled so we're back
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  to the more courtly tone of Elrond after the Pippin protest. I think Tolkien is particularly good
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  at this flexibility of rising up and down registers from the very antiquated high flown language of
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  some of the heroic characters down to the absolutely commoner garden language of someone like Sam
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  and we'll see this all the way through the book. Just a note here for those of you who may have missed
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  it because it's not given a huge emphasis considering its role in the story but this is the point
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  in the book where the sword is forged and you it doesn't come later as in the film version
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  and it's a decision taken by Aragon because he knows he is in a sense going out to fight a battle
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  on the borders of Mordor as it's described and this is a moment where he either rises to
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  his ancestry or fails and in order to mark the moment because the sword was broken in the battle
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  on the borders of Mordor it's reforged and given a new name and do a real flame of the West
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  and I would say that in his chapter it's full of important swords and artifacts it's one of those
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  chapters which is delightful to imagine all these things being dusted off and brought out of
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  keeping or polished to go on this journey and characters are often associated with key
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  artifacts as we'll see as we go on and it's particularly sweet I think at this moment
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  that Bilbo immediately after Andural is reforged gives sting to Frodo so sting is given
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  its own little hobbit style lineage very important artifact in its own right and it will go on
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  to do great deeds and has already done them but I think it's important here to reiterate that Bilbo
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  is the hobbit who can give things up that he cares for he gives up sting because he knows that
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  it's no longer something he needs and he gives up the mithril coat this is what he says was given
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  to him by Thorin he calls it a pretty thing and useful and it later comes into its own in Moria of
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  course and its value is mentioned there I think I'm in the camp that Bilbo knows for well that
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  it's very valuable he's been spending a little enough time in the world to know exactly how valuable
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  it is and he is very happy to hand over something that's worth more than the shire in order to save and
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  protect his beloved nephew but of course the hobbits are not really comfortable in this world of
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  Helms and shields and swords and these things so the dwarven male is hidden under his clothes and
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  that kind of stands for what hobbits alike of course and that is a parallel made later that they
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  are more than meets the eye another very lovely moment here is the restrained emotion of farewell
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  where there's a sort of very English gentleman or I can't slap you on your back because you're too
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  hard that kind of stuff were of them of two young two men hobbits who are shy about expressing
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  emotion but yet Bilbo finds a way because he gives this beautiful poem which when I was asking for
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  favorite poems online this was the one that actually most people said was their favorite it starts
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  with I sit beside the fire and think and it's a wonderful reflection on what it's like to grow old
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  and to think of your place in history but he is telling Frodo what he's going to be doing whilst Frodo
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  is away on this perilous adventure he's going to be I listen for returning feet and voices at the door
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  that's his role he's waiting so it's a very emotional moment and beautifully expressed in poetry
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  right so now we're ready to go we're ready to set out and again Elrond is striving to do a
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  couple of things here he's striving to make the moment sort of fitting for the importance of what's
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  happening he's also giving them instructions about going in secrecy so they set out on a cold
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  grey day near the end of December I think just to answer the question I raised earlier why do they
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  wait this long the cold grey day in December is the 25th of December and there's very often
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  important real world days underlying the days of the Hobbit calendar shall we say and Tolkien
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  liked the idea of setting the ring out on the quest on what is celebrated as Christmas day in
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  the Catholic Church the setting out has another couple of things worth noting here from a writing
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  point of view we have the moment when both Boramir and Gimli push back on Elrond and this tells you
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  a lot about both the characters and the culture of the elves and the dwarves so Elrond is striving
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  for secrecy as supposed to be leaving quietly at dawn no one's supposed to notice but Boramir gets
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  out his horn and gives it a good old blast and Elrond challenges him saying well why you know you
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  shouldn't be doing that and you should not do it again until you're on the borders of your own land
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  which again is foreshadowing Boramir's fate but Boramir is showing that he is not really with this
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  program he is on the quest but he's got his own agenda and that is absolutely key to why he fractures
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  the fellowship at the end and also it connects and brings attention to the horn which becomes the
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  artifact that symbolises Boramir it's what ends up on the lap of Denathor in return of the king
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  so very cleverly here Tolkien is combining all of these important character notes
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  plot notes in this one moment we also get Gimli giving the dwarf point of view when Elrond saying
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  you know those of you who want to turn back if your carriage fails that's okay sort of thing he's
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  he's sort of saying I understand how difficult this is going to be and the dwarf weighs in saying
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  ah you know none of us would do that no no no no person would back out so quickly
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  and there's a sort of trying to cap each other that happens faithless is he that says farewell when
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  the road darkens had Gimli maybe said Elrond but let him not vow to walk in the dark who has not
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  yet seen the nightfall yet sworn word may strengthen quaking hearts had Gimli or break it said Elrond
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  so he does get the last word last word despite Gimli's best attempts to undercut you know master
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  Elrond but it gives you that sense of the um twoing and three between the elf and the dwarf culture
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  there and also you get an insight into what Gimli is going to be like as a companion rushing in
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  refusing to turn back it's interesting though that this section is told a lot of it is told
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  from Sam's point of view we go into his headspace where he's thinking about Bill the pony who is
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  going to be their beast of burden and he's worried about what he's forgotten to pack there's a lovely
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  little note about how he's looking forward to bringing out various small belongings of his masters
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  which he will bring out in triumph when they are called for you get the sense of him as the valet
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  the you know the aid to camp for Frodo here very much looking after his master's interests and then
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  he settles on the realization he's forgotten to bring rope again seeded in so that when he lacks rope
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  later on and gets given it in Lotharion then that's a sort of great relief because it's always in
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  the back of his mind he hasn't got it and he needs it so again notice that those little details
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  are delightfully put in here okay so that's the end of the Rivendell section and off they go
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  here we get in the film they give this the first time the fellowship theme is played and the
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  equivalent of that is a description here which begins in the paragraph at the Fordo Bruinin
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  because we get who's walking where Gandalf walked in front and with him went arrogant who knew
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  this land even in the dark and there's a sort of counting off of the other members of the fellowship
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  coming behind and it is also the moment where most of us turn to the maps it's very important to
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  the success of this fantasy that we feel as though it's a real world to many of us in a way it has
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  become a real world because we see it in our real world when we're walking around in it but also
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  there's a little note here again from a style point of view which allowed because we got a fortnight
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  that is skipped over skipped over at this point a fortnight by the way for those of you who aren't in
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  the UK is a two weeks Frodo remembered little of it so we're told there that we're in Frodo's point
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  of view and it's a way of fast forwarding because Frodo can't remember it so he can't tell Bill
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  on his return what happened so we're going to skip over to the first important thing which is when
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  they reached when they reach Holland. Here is a description of mountains and maps and we'll keep
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  having these character moments because Pippin basically confesses he couldn't really make
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  head or tail of maps it's not as bad as Sam as we find out later but having an ignorant person on
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  the team means that it gives it excuse for the other characters to explain this is an important
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  device when you need to give information to the reader without feeling it like a big sort of
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  information dump and the fact that Pippin can't make sense of the landscape gives Gandalf the chance
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  to sort of explain where they are and Gimli then takes over with a wonderful section reading out
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  the names of this landscape in the dwarf language so he calls the mountains
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  Barazirak and Shathur and he goes on to say Yonder stands Barazinbar the Red Horn cruel
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  Karadras and beyond him a silver tine and cloudy head Kaleb deal the white and fan wethole the
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  grey which we call Zirak Zigil and Bundel Shathur wonderful names I mean you can look for them on
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  the map but also hear the echoes of the dwarven culture that is going on under underlining the next
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  couple of chapters as we get to Moria and if you are a person who is building a fantasy around
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  languages of course you'll be looking for the natural moments to drop them in and this is what
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  Tolkien does he drops them in in a very natural way we also get Gandalf sketching out the way ahead
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  so he talks about the various stages of their journey so they're going to go through the mountains
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  or over the mountains down the silver load to the secret woods and then on to the great river and then
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  to the end of the story and it's important in a chapter where which is actually about turning
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  back in frustration that we still feel as a reader that we are the the narrative momentum is
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  forward very helpful little intervention that by Gandalf this chapter is also for our moments when
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  for the first time outside Rivendell the fellowship speak we've heard Boramir we've heard Gimli
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  and now we get Legolas and it's notable that Legolas is talking about time because some of the most
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  memorable Legolas moments are really about the nature of the passage of time as a beautiful one
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  coming in the future on the great river chapter but here he's talking about how the land forgets
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  he says but the elves of this land were of a strange race of a race strange to us of the
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  Sylvan folk and the trees and the grass do not now remember them only i hear the stones lament them
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  deep they delved us fair they brought us high they built it us but they are gone they are gone
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  they sought the havens long ago it's a beautiful passage that and it reminds you of lots of things
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  it reminds you of how long the elves are how there are different kinds of elves so a Sylvan
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  elf is one who lives in the woods these are what elves that made things more about that in a second
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  his lament for those going over to the west so it is and beautifully encapsulates that
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  the situation of the elves in middle earth i always enjoy it in this chapter seeing
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  arrogant in ranger mode they have one of the moments when they're camping together as the fellowship
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  somewhere on watch some are sleeping love all this detail and arrogant is the one who senses that
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  the crebine or the crows are abroad and this is important for retaining a sense of threat
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  so they're not just camping they have to hide they have to put out the fires they have to
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  make sure that they remain as little impact on the landscape as possible and we get a sense here
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  the land turning against them this passage always reminds me a bit of when the children go through
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  the wardrobe into narnia and mr beaver warns them that not all the animals are friendly
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  to the enemies of the white witch and obviously cs lewis would have heard this passage long before
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  he wrote that so i sometimes wonder if the hollins section is in the back of his mind as he wrote
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  that section in the lion and the witch in the wardrobe but for all the menace and threat
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  we can count on pipping to give us a nice down to earth hobbit response well if that isn't a plague
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  and a nuisance these are not characters who float above the the narrative without
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  feeling frustrations and grumbles and hunger thirst and tiredness they're very much
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  reacting as many of us would if we were put in that situation this is going back to the the
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  grounding effect of having hobbits along for the ride or the walk in this case
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  but we also get a insight here into sam's growth as a character so sam was originally interested in
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  the culture of the elves way back in the shire he's now interested in the culture of the dwarves
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  he says to Frodo reflecting on gimli's earlier words a fair jaw cracker dwarf language must be
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  and you get the sense of his eyes being opened to what's outside the shire but also we get told
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  very clearly he has no sense of maps because he's out of his reckoning he's a hobbit who
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  navigated his way by familiarity with a landscape not by maps or anything written by other people
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  so it's actually i spoke we're doing here if you think of Tolkien plates spinning
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  so he's got nine plates up on the poles plus the story plate ten and he has to do a bit spinning
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  for the strider arrogant character but a spinning for barameer a bit for gimli a bit for legolas
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  a bit for Gandalf and so on and he does it absolutely beautifully it's actually my view much better
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  than the company of dwarves in the hobbit where the rest of the dwarves who weren't thoring and
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  barlin i suppose most and bomber most of them were sort of indistinguishable from each other
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  but the fellowship is beautifully delineated in a very clear way so we can all imagine these
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  different energies and characters in the fellowship so after having spent some time in
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  sam's sort of perspective we are back with Frodo and Frodo is reflecting on the landscape
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  he finds it an old landscape he notices the remains of an ancient road and he looks at the
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  it's a beautifully written brief passage of description about the black stones and the shadows
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  many of them looked to have been worked by hands though now they lay tumbled and ruinous
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  in a bleak barren land all throughout lord of the rings there are traces of earlier civilizations
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  we saw this on the old road we saw this and weather top we see it in a thillian and here in
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  hollum we get it again and for those of you who want to make a connection to the rings of power
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  this area is where kele brimbaugh and his elves who made things including rings this is the area
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  they set up as their kingdom so that is what is being remembered but notice that the talking
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  doesn't weigh us down with too much information he's almost giving us the atmosphere without the
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  names and the details at this point um kele brimbaugh does get a mention at the gates of moria but
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  we don't get too many diversions at this point you'd have to glean the information from the
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  appendices if you wanted to find out who these elves were at this point well i always sit up and
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  notice when tolkean mentioned stars he absolutely loves stars but here it serves the purpose of
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  reminding us of the threat so we had the red star earlier now we get the stars briefly shut out
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  by a shadow and this is the hint of the return of the black riders in their form of nascal
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  so tolkean is telling us of a threat to come without naming it i mentioned that this is a down-to-earth
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  fellowship and this is particularly shown that the the two most sort of heroic characters
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  which is Gandalf and arrogant by heroic i mean high register longest lineage characters
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  they are having a disagreement about the way to go and this is what Frodo is listening into
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  it's interesting to sort of find yourself in the position of someone who isn't taking the decision
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  he has to later take decisions but at this point he is listening in and so he's reactive
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  and his reaction is he's relieved not to have to go the dark way the aragor mourns against
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  so they take the decision to go out the mountain
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  so remember my plate spinning analogy this is where Boramir really gets his most extended
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  period of being the hero which is referred to again after his died when Pippin tells
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  this tale again to his father Denathor and we get to see lots of his strong points you get a sense
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  of a really good leader of men he's very practical he better get some wood together
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  faggots to let's like a bundle of wood to take with us up the mountain
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  and he's proved to be have good foresight here because the snow comes it's very lovely the way
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  the snow arrives because it arrives just gently it's a really gentle form of a few flakes
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  that Frodo notices and we get snow in both its forms here both as a benign excuse for a holiday
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  versus the cruel snow which they're about to experience and we get a a call out or a shout out
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  for shy history with memories of the fell winter that happened long before the living memory
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  of most hobbits and here there's a reflection of the longer history of the shyer which most
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  hobbits are ignorant of because they tend to live within the living generation memory
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  and Gandalf isn't always the easiest of companions because there is basically I told you so
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  to Aragon for old Aragon is trying his best but I suppose perhaps there is a sense here I think
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  there's a growing sense that Gandalf knows he's got to go under but he's not going to rush into this
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  decision he's hoping there is an easier way out it's made this cup pass from me kind of
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  moment thinking about it in a biblical sense but he you know poor old Aragon but it does lead to a debate
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  about who is behind it all and it's interesting here that there's a there is a suggestion it could be
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  the long arm of Saron reaching out this far Boramir hit his fell voices on the air so suggestion
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  almost enchantment in the film they made this Saron man which geographically makes sense because
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  he lives nearer but Gimli I think gives the most convincing explanation he says Karadras was called
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  the cruel and had an ill name long years ago when rumor of Saron had not been heard in these lands
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  what I like about this is kind of a companion piece to the presence of Tom Bombadil in the landscape
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  there are some powers in middle earth that are nothing to do with the war of the ring
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  whose emulators and urges predate current history and I think that reminds us of the age of the land
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  and the long long perspective which is very often where we are encouraged to look by Tolkien look
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  at the long perspective it's not all about this these are characters who are part of a much more
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  complicated woven tapestry of history or to use the foundational myth of middle earth they are
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  tunes and themes within a much bigger symphony played by Iluvitar so they are in trouble in the
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  snow halfway up the mountain and here we get one of these miracle foods are produced this time it's
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  the Miravore cordial that Gandalf has on him remember there was a cordial similar to this
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  that Gildor had right back in the Shire and later on we're going to get Lemba spread and even
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  in a man sense pharameers provisions of food as sort of like a miraculous finding we also get
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  the miracle little spring that the Frodo and Sam find in Mordor so putting these very memorable
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  moments of refreshment and relief and reprieve are very important in these dark moments because
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  the dark seems darker as a result but also the lights is more precious and more intense
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  we also get Gandalf doing one of his rare moments of magic he's mostly spared the magic for fun
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  putting it into fireworks he doesn't go around waving his wand in a Harry Potter way
• 32:25
  he holds back but this chapter and the next next couple are where he does his most of his magic
• 32:33
  and he uses it first here in a small way for lighting a fire and he is reluctant because he says
• 32:40
  I have written Gandalf is here in signs that can read can be read from Rivendell to the mouth
• 32:48
  of Anduin I'm interested in this there's something else going on here if you think about the map
• 32:55
  because Gandalf is reminding us of them as this small present high up on a mountain and all the
• 33:02
  world around them so he's got this bigger view the wider view which I mentioned as a theme of this
• 33:08
  he reminds of the world outside the storm so they are forced to turn back now in my plate spinning
• 33:16
  analogy here Legolas gets another spin and he is at his most elven here and possibly he's most annoying
• 33:23
  if everybody else because Borumir who is at his most heroic is clowing his way down the mountain
• 33:30
  and Legolas runs by on his light shoes feet making little imprint on the snow basically saying I'm
• 33:37
  off to find the sun he doesn't seem that worried whereas the other characters do feel that there is
• 33:45
  real threat of the death of exposure for Legolas this doesn't seem such a big deal it may be that
• 33:51
  he's doing this I suppose it depends how you read it how you would play it if you were thinking
• 33:55
  about it in terms of the film it could be encouraging that he he's the one who finds that the snow
• 34:02
  only goes so far down the mountain they can get out oh it could be a bit smug so it depends
• 34:08
  for how you're reading your Legolas as to how nice this comes across I think I would find it a
• 34:14
  little bit annoying if I'm gimli I would definitely find it annoying but Borumir's leadership role
• 34:21
  here is very clear because he's the one who's giving the solution so when the hobbits are worried
• 34:26
  that they haven't got the energy to go down the mountain he says don't worry I can carry you
• 34:31
  so he carries Pippin it's particularly sweet that there is a connection here between Pippin
• 34:36
  and Borumir because Pippin becomes the man of Gondor one of the guard and he's described as
• 34:44
  widening the passage with his arms even as he's carrying Pippin down the mountain which is
• 34:49
  lovely moment for Borumir and they have to turn up and give give up but they're not giving up
• 34:57
  totally they're just having they're being forced to take the path that Gandalf doesn't want so
• 35:01
  we remember that this is the way none of them want to go they're going to have to go and in fact
• 35:08
  it's a bit like check-offs if you mention a gun in the first act it has to fire later if you mention
• 35:14
  another path that you don't want to take it's pretty good to actually have to take it that's what
• 35:19
  the reader is expecting story expectation is building up here Gimli is the one to personify and
• 35:27
  address the mountain and sort of shake his fist at Karadras and there's a beautiful final sentence
• 35:35
  pure Tolkien here a cold wind flowed down behind them as they turned their backs on the Red Horn gate
• 35:42
  and stumbled weirdly down the slope Karadras had defeated them great end to the chapter
• 35:51
  and like the the champion boxer who's knocked out they stagger away ready to come back again
• 35:59
  to fight the battle but in a different arena and the next chapter will take us through some more
• 36:05
  perils and to the gates of Moria
• 36:14
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• 36:20
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• 36:27
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• 36:34
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