Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Building Digital Out-Of-Home Experiences using Data and Algorithms | Srikanth R | Ep 08

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Building Digital Out-Of-Home Experiences using Data and Algorithms | Srikanth R | Ep 08 · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

0:00
SPEAKER_01: I walked past a bank the other day and they have two digital screens.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: One located facing outside the bank using the glass door that they have, and the other one was inside the bank, and both of them were running the same content.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: So I just stood by and I counted the number of content pieces running, and it was about 16 pieces of content.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: One was an airline promo that they were doing, the other was a coffee promo.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: No, so they do have all these promos, and I said, listen, you're running the same promo in every branch.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: What if you brought one small location awareness which said the coffee outlet is in the third floor of this building?
0:38
SPEAKER_01: Now suddenly you're changing the game in terms of the experiential content, which is instinctively what they do on a website.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: If you hit the website from Goa, they would give you a slightly different piece of content.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you hit it from Delhi, they would give you a different piece of content.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: But they've not brought that thinking into their owned media.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: So I think there is first-party data, owned media, and eventually then you'll start looking at it as an Omni media.
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2:18
SPEAKER_02: Hi Srikant, thanks a lot for uh agreeing to be a guest in our podcast.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: It's an absolute privilege talking to you and looking at what you have achieved.
2:29
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure this is going to be extremely useful for our audience.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: So thanks a ton for taking time and talking to me.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Swami.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm in August company, so I'm delighted to be here.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: So thanks.
2:42
SPEAKER_02: So Srikant, I wanted to uh start off with this uh viewpoint where I think you were in IT consulting, uh probably done some you know work with IBM and building uh you know uh huge amount of work around data and the work that you have done on the IT consulting side.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: And where was this thought of actually moving to the media and the marketing side?
3:09
SPEAKER_02: And where did this idea come up and what what was the trigger for that?
3:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh I would say a couple of things, right?
3:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously, I'm watch a lot of movies, and there has been a lot of inspiration in movies where Hollywood spends billions of dollars trying to create the future, sometimes in a very scientific way.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Like they put together, I think, 12 to 13 professors from top universities to look at minority report and what the future would look like.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: So Blade Runner was uh again a massive, massive uh influence uh in terms of what future cities would look like.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: And uh I happened to live in Japan for a couple of years in the 90s, and uh, you know, the early part of the neon lighting up the city in in Tokyo in in parts like Shibuya, uh Harajuku, and all that was spectacular.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: So it's always left an impression that uh these iconic structures influence our minds in a in a very subconscious, subtle way.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: So that's one part of it.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: The second, even though I was working with IBM in the early days, my roommates were all from the advertising industry.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I had to get up every day and wear a blue suit and you know, a tie and get to work with a white shirt, and these guys would get out with their ponytails and haggard, unshaven faces.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: So I used to think, listen, creativity is in every industry.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: Why is this the exclusive domain of advertising industry?
4:34
SPEAKER_01: Right.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: So I think there was always an urge to say, hey, I everyone has got a creative side, and and for me, uh, media was going tech, and uh so it seemed a natural way to get into the media industry with the tech and data knowledge, and also prove to myself and probably you know more than others that there is a creative side that I could exploit if I was in a different industry.
4:58
SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
5:00
SPEAKER_02: So so literally the ecosystem around you uh was the trigger, it looks like, right?
5:05
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yes.
5:09
SPEAKER_02: Uh so uh, you know, when I look at this venture of yours, uh moving walls, uh absolutely uh, you know, you've spoken about it, I've kind of read about it everywhere.
5:21
SPEAKER_02: Your inspiration from Blade Runner and Minority Report, and you know, I've seen a lot of articles around it.
5:27
SPEAKER_02: Uh but the most important thing that I really believed that I think uh was the key trigger was this whole area that the uh you know the out-of-home media uh was largely fragmented, and uh the fact that it needed uh kind of a platform to do better planning of all these assets and optimize the measurements and the spends around it.
5:55
SPEAKER_02: Uh so was that something that uh you know uh was one of the key uh observations and something that you saw in this industry?
6:06
SPEAKER_01: Um yes, for me, even even to kind of rewind back to the remark that you said that uh the environment shaped my thinking.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there's a beautiful uh song by Elvis Costello where the word goes like this, which is Who Left This Fingerprint on My Imagination?
6:20
SPEAKER_01: Right?
6:21
SPEAKER_01: So all of our imagination are touched by the experiences that we have.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: So, and and to bring it back to context, and I can give you many of them, including the latest one.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: So maybe about six weeks ago, I uh landed at uh JFK Airport and was traveling with my wife, but she had taken a flight a day earlier because I had some meetings.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the first billboard that I noticed when I landed in JFK Airport was uh, you know, uh Chicago the musical, right?
6:46
SPEAKER_01: And I know it's a 20-year-old musical, but uh it's just that we were together in New York after, I don't know, a decade or more.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: And the first thing that popped to my mind was hey, she loves the movie uh and she would love the musical.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: So immediately I sent her a WhatsApp saying Friday night, Chicago the musical, shall I go ahead and book?
7:04
SPEAKER_01: And she said, Wow, you remembered, right?
7:06
SPEAKER_01: So so what happens is uh, and I can tell you many such stories where what you see in the real world influences, but what you do is you whip out your phone and you start searching for it.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: And that's the natural uh you know instinct everyone has, right?
7:21
SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, again, similarly, uh in Bangkok, we are driving around and I see the Wax Museum billboard with my family.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: Immediately I pulled my phone out and said, you know, where is it and how do we get there?
7:32
SPEAKER_01: And and so when you then you look at it, uh, that's a consumer way of how you deal with things that you see and experience.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: And then you look at it a bit more scientifically, being in the marketing media industry and the data industry now.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: Now I immediately know when I do the search, Google search gets an attribution that people who are looking for searching this, but people forgot what made me search.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: And this was, you know, for me, that's how I see the environment around us.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: They all have the ability to influence our mind and influence our action.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: So it's priming our subconscious, while in the real the activity that we do then, if we get interested, is to either search for it or go to the website or uh, you know, call or whatever it is, but suddenly there is a bit of an attribution gap in terms of what made us.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's a one-to-one, and sometimes it's uh many times you would have to get into the person's mind before that attribution kicks in.
8:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, so yes, that was, I think, the primary driver for me to say, hey, uh, this whole you know, minority report view of the world, but more importantly, my own personal experiences where what I see uh kind of shapes my thinking.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: And then I looked at the nature of the industry, right?
8:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, from 2006, uh I've been involved in some shape or form with this industry that we call as the outer net.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: But uh when I uh looked at it, I looked at the nature of the industry, very low-tech.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, and if I don't get killed for saying it, the joke was that uh the digital industry has become, you know, the old advertising industry where um madmen have become math men.
9:11
SPEAKER_01: Uh but in in the outer form industry, it's still Mafia man.
9:15
SPEAKER_01: He hasn't changed, right?
9:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: So so that kind of uh fascinated me that it's low-tech, it's fragmented, perhaps there is an opportunity uh for a tech company to come in and start providing solutions.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: So I think every bit of that, I think a belief that in my own world it is shaping my thinking.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: And second is yes, it's low-tech, which means I can create value.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: And uh it was low-tech.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: I I would say it's made uh a lot of progress.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: But when I looked at it, it was low-tech.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: And uh obviously the third is it was fragmented, which meant that there was a need for a unifying platform of source.
9:55
SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
9:56
SPEAKER_02: So uh you also talk about how uh you know uh a media like OH uh can influence the subconscious mind, right?
10:07
SPEAKER_02: Because you typically uh uh you know look at uh say digital or performance marketing and you assume that everything is digital, but really I think you really talk about this very interesting uh concept of real-world experiences, right?
10:24
SPEAKER_02: I read a lot of stuff that you talk about uh since the time you started moving walls, which is to say, hey, I'm in the business of actually looking at real-world experiences and finding ways to measure them in a platform and a data-led way, is really what I think uh you're given an interview long time back.
10:43
SPEAKER_02: So, how does how do you think uh a media like what uh you are trying to consolidate and make and make it into a platform, how do you believe it can influence the subconscious mind?
10:56
SPEAKER_01: Okay, no, uh there are uh two or three aspects to this, right?
11:01
SPEAKER_01: If you just take the consumer experience of a subconscious mind, then I would say it's probably the ability to deliver content in a relevant manner, relevant to that location, that has a massive influence on subconscious mind.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh, even to take a simple example of again for a movie which was uh uh called um um you know the uh um bullet train, the bullet train movie.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: What we did in of all places in India, interestingly, is when you got off a station in Delhi or Mumbai, not only did the trailer run, but it also had where is the nearest theater where it was playing, and what was the next show timing?
11:44
SPEAKER_01: So now you've got some interesting content that's relevant to me.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm getting off a train station, whatever it is, you know, that there, whatever.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: And it reminded me that the nearest uh theater where it was playing.
11:57
unknown: Right?
11:57
SPEAKER_01: So to me, that's how you could influence.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: So that's one part of it.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: The second is by selecting the right locations at the right time, even if you did not have the dynamic content that is being delivered, but just being in the right locations at the right time, then means you're reaching the right audiences, which would resonate much better with them, right?
12:19
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's probably the second aspect of it.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: Now, if you take data science to another scale, um, then what you could do is to start building what is called as incremental reach, which means that I am reaching certain um, you know, and and frequency into the game.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: At what point in time do I stop advertising in Mumbai airport or in New York airport?
12:42
SPEAKER_01: And at what point in time do I go to Times Square or uh any other location?
12:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh, is dependent on the saturation curve in terms of uh, you know, at you know, within a week or 10 days or 15 days, you start seeing a saturation curve and you start seeing a frequency increase.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: So you start deciding where your money is spent um by reaching the maximum uh reach that you could get, either at a uh media level, which is at an let's say an out-of-home or a digital out-of-home level, or you could turn that around and say, can I now marry that with Facebook?
13:17
SPEAKER_01: Can I marry that with uh you know uh uh Twitter or whatever?
13:22
SPEAKER_01: And how do I find audiences that I'm not able to reach in these channels in locations?
13:27
SPEAKER_01: Um so it's it's it's a whole set of uh data science that you could bring into play with dynamic content triggers that would make it uh you know relevant for uh shaping the subconscious mind.
13:40
SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: Uh so Shekhand, one challenge that you have with uh the industry that you uh are building, if I were to call it, because you're almost building the foundation uh for an industry like what you are building.
13:55
SPEAKER_02: Uh at least from what I know of the data and the size of the industry, it looks like globally it's a$39 billion business.
14:04
SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, uh and if I'm right, correct me if I'm wrong.
14:07
SPEAKER_02: Uh but the digital signboards as a percentage of uh you know uh non-digital signboards is fairly uh the mix is uh not as uh high.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: Uh it may be moving fast, but the fact is that a lot of investments need to be made to actually do what you are suggesting, right?
14:28
SPEAKER_02: The like the foot panda uh you know case study that uh you know you guys have done uh in Indonesia where you know you really build context around uh you know traffic and how you build it.
14:40
SPEAKER_02: Uh the fact is the industry needs uh the platform, it needs the media uh in terms of digital signage for you to deliver this kind of an experience.
14:53
SPEAKER_02: So, how do you see the growth over the last few years and how do you see it moving in the next couple of years?
15:00
SPEAKER_02: There are lots of questions embedded in this, but you can pick up one slice at a time and probably answer it.
15:06
unknown: Yeah.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: So one of the things I learned for me is uh your answer depends on the target audience.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: So let me let me say I have three different people that I speak to, or and I can try and build a story around that.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: So if I'm talking to an investor, yes, what you said 40 billion is what clients spend go globally on out of home, of which I would say maybe globally about 20, 25, or maybe even 30% has gone digital.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: Now there are some nuances in some markets it's 50-50, and some markets it's 70-30, and some markets it's 2080.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: But I think overall you are reached a stage where 30 to 35 percent of that money is going to digital out of form.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: Then you ask yourself the question how much of that is automated, how much of that is data lay, and how much of that is kind of truly addressable in a programmatic way.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: And then you find it drops dramatically, uh, you know, much lower.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: Right?
16:00
SPEAKER_01: So now that's the reality.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: So when I talk to an investor, I turn around and say it's not even the 40 billion, there is 400 billion that's being spent on uh digital platforms, digital internet platforms.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: Now, as a marketer, at a point where automation and measurement exist equally in the outer net and in the internet, I would then say, I will put my money where I get my return.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't really care for internet or outer net.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: Now, when that day happens, suddenly from playing in a 30% of 50 billion, which is uh you know 15 billion or 20 billion, suddenly you'd be playing in a 500 billion or a 600 billion marketplace.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: So that's the investor view of what the potential is there if we manage to crack this problem.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: Okay, but when you talk to an advertiser, I have a slightly different way.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: When I talk to a marketer, I have a slightly different way.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: And it all comes back to our personal experiences.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: I would love to ask you what's that last ad that you saw on YouTube without skipping, or you know, what is that last ad on Meta that you noticed and you wanted to click through?
17:10
SPEAKER_01: And the answer is um, you know, I think when cases of effectiveness was being built in the early days, let's say they had a hundred advertisers uh in in in advertising or 10 advertisers advertising.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: The minute it becomes a billion advertisers trying to push content through, irrespective of what you say, that it's highly targeted, it's uh uh all of that, I still get, I don't want to name the platforms, I get ads which are purely Chinese uh in language without subtitles hitting me.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: And I keep wondering, you know, how can this happen with all the data and addressability that's in place?
17:48
SPEAKER_01: So the reality is anything that is saturated, and if 70% of global budgets are going there with a billion advertisers, I think consumers have stopped watching it.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: It's just become, you know, uh interestingly, I used to say uh when I was in IBM that you can't get fired for choosing IBM, right?
18:06
SPEAKER_01: So you make safe choices so that you could go back to the boss and say, I picked the best IT company, but if the project failed, it's not my problem.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: So I think there is a certain element of that in the marketeers' mind and in the agency planner's mind.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: Let us just take some safe choices.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: But then there is a group of probably five, 10% of marketeers, the names that you mentioned, like uh Foot Panda or Sony Pictures or uh Arasia that we work with, etc.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: They come in and say that's an opportunity for us.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: If people are not exploiting that well, then I should be looking at exploiting that well.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's always in that maturity curve.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: I think uh it's gone beyond the innovators, in my view.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh, three, five years ago, we were in innovators.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: I think it is moving into a mass adoption uh stage right now.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: And at some point, again, this will also saturate.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: And I think then we need to really come up with data science and you know, or a lack of, you know, to be in the right uh forums, the right AI, ML techniques, where you can now start talking about sequencing.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: So you're not only talking about which media you allocate money to, but you start thinking at sequencing models, etc.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: But I think that's how the industry will progress, in my view, Swan.
19:16
SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: So uh so if I were a CMO or a marketer, uh one of the challenges that I see is uh uh, you know, when you really talk about omni media, uh uh the real media planning uh in my view is still fragmented, right?
19:36
SPEAKER_02: Because you can say that uh, you know, I do television, uh, I do digital, which is performance marketing, then I have OOH.
19:44
SPEAKER_02: Uh but the ability to uh build the customer journey or my audience journey, if I were to call it, across these channels and mediums is still not uh you know ideal.
19:56
SPEAKER_02: And especially we have been in marketing for such a long time that uh it's still you know being talked about, uh, but we don't experience it, right?
20:05
SPEAKER_02: Uh and I I think uh you know when you really talk about digital, I I pretty much agree with what you're saying, which is they talk of personalization, but I haven't seen a real personalization at the scale that is needed.
20:17
SPEAKER_02: So I think uh you know you won't be fired for IBM is the real principle that happens with media planning, and I agree with that.
20:24
SPEAKER_02: So given that you're building a platform and you see these fragmented channels with their own programmatic uh, you know, uh methods that are there, if I were a CMO looking at saying, hey, how do I start uh you know counting my beans in terms of building a brand, what would you recommend to say, hey, the data doesn't seem to talk to each other, but I think uh intuitively this is the way you need to go.
20:53
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
20:53
SPEAKER_02: So what would you uh what would you recommend given your experience of what you're building?
20:59
SPEAKER_01: So um there are uh kind of uh uh again, there are a few slices, a few ways we approach the problem.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: The first is we go to marketers who have decided to spend some money.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: They don't know is this the whole 50% of my money is effective.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: I don't know which 50.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: So we go to these guys and say, hey, listen, you're already spending a portion of your budgets in in out-of-home media.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: Potentially, why don't we look at bringing some measurement, some automation, some ability to deliver content dynamically in a relevant manner?
21:33
SPEAKER_01: So that's our one conversation that we have.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: And uh sometimes uh it works.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh sometimes they turn around and tell us we know why we are buying it, we don't want it measured.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: Or I've had you know some some marketeers tell me it's uh 6% of my budgets or 10% of my budgets.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: I would rather fix my 90% than uh focus on fixing this test, right?
21:55
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, having an automated platform where you can kind of uh make the uh experience easy, then gets them to a table.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: But again, I'm talking about the platform is about seven years old and we have had a progressive experience over a period of time.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: I would say today the acceptance is very high.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: I've had CEOs come to me and tell me, CEO of a bank told me this is the only media that I don't get any information on.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: And you know I would love to work with you guys.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: So I think getting that uh feedback of what what is working, what is not working definitely is one motivation for them to uh come on board.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: But then that's only the 40 or 50 billion that is getting spent in order.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: Then we go to the digital guys and we say listen are you facing uh a reach saturation with uh you know or are you having difficulty in finding certain audiences because they've turned that blocker on, they're not responsive to your messaging, etc.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: And then we try and build some incremental reach plans where it is seen as an increase a portion of their digital budget gets allocated in an automated manner.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: Now interestingly when we spoke spoke to them about two, three years ago and we started having this success with the right share company and one of the things that the market here told me is can you not call it out of home?
23:20
SPEAKER_01: Because if you call it out of home, I have a different person dealing with those budgets.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: So we said okay from now on we'll call it video V I D E O H, right?
23:31
SPEAKER_01: So that you can say oh I'm delivering video to YouTube and I'm delivering a video to a bus station or or or to a gas station right so so you're able to then position it in that ecosystem of uh so I think it's a question of where you start the conversation and and I think we need to have both conversations to see how it progresses.
23:53
SPEAKER_02: So uh so one of the things uh that uh you know that I look at when I see your moving audiences platform or the LMX platform uh which is an equivalent of an ad exchange if I were to really call it for the digital uh out of home media uh imagine if I were a CMO and say hey if I were to throw up my digital marketing plans to you okay and uh because I know that uh you know I'm spending you know 30% of my budget there today and uh I know I'm spending it on these platforms I know I can do uh you know all kinds of targeting and uh therefore I'm able to take that up and throw it up in your platform okay and then say hey now give me the incremental context reach and uh experience uh I think that's the way to think is what I was looking at uh you know when I was going through some of the stuff that you guys do and that's a new way to think about this rather than see it as disconnected parts but look at it as as connected parts.
25:04
SPEAKER_02: Would you agree with me on that?
25:06
SPEAKER_01: Very well Satswami I mean that's that's the second scenario that I was talking about that we go to clients who are spending on digital and we talk to them about an incremental reach or reaching audiences that they were not able to reach on digital.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: And yes we would have to do some studies around that to prove it.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: So we've published extensively we did a couple of efforts one was uh uh with uh uh the uh trade associations in Singapore called AAMS and MSAP in the Philippines we got together and we've published about 12 or 13 case studies to describe what happens when uh such uh a digital plan gets extended right and slowly it's an education process uh that uh oh you know we do brand lift studies to see with and without what is the impact, etc.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of research that's going behind it to show the efficacy of uh that approach.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: But yes, I would love to meet that client and I would love to take that challenge on and see how uh you know we could solve it for them.
26:04
SPEAKER_02: Okay, but do you see clients looking at it in the way I'm uh uh suggesting because uh technically I uh the way I see it if if I'm from a media planning side or an agency side uh you know uh I don't see the uh connected parts uh but I believe the amplification that you talk about which is priming influencing and activating that you talk about right which is really about the audience and not about the media right uh I think there's a new framework and a mindset with which a CMO needs to look at this right um and and for me I have some good news in a sense that uh otherwise we wouldn't be alive and and we wouldn't have reached where we are as a you know started uh in Singapore and now we are pretty much present in every continent including Latin America Africa Australia Japan I mean obviously AIPAC um and and I think clients and especially interestingly agencies have started seeing it that way and there is a reason behind it right so and you know in um you know again I could I could be short for saying some things but I'll go ahead and say it right um you look at the agency world if everything flows into one platform I think the businesses don't the agency as historically said what they are strong at is negotiating with the bulk buying that they do in media but that's not the story anymore.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: Now they have to become a bit more uh uh consultative a bit more intelligent in their media plans and so by definition they do not want one or two or three players taking 30% each so they do want that fragmentation for their role to uh play uh you know a major role in in the decision making so I think the agencies have started recognizing it and that's why what they do is they start adopting building their own platforms so uh with our platform as the core so we've done extensive work with Group M in multiple markets including India we've done work with uh Denso in Africa we've done work with IPG in Mexico so so I think some of these agencies in certain markets have said listen I want to think omnichannel I want to think in a certain way where we need uh this data to be part of our digital planning and we want to look at it as a uh uh you know a priming uh influencing and and activating model right I think that is starting and that's uh you know some of these are public references where they've said they are uh starting to uh go down that path now there is also another interesting side to it that even the digital players and you know these are questions I ask uh trade desk as a PE multiple of 512 or something when I looked at it last right always say listen there has to be a motivation for the industry right and uh if 70% of money is flowing through digital what else can they automate?
29:01
SPEAKER_01: So they go after uh connected TV and they go after connected digital screens.
29:06
SPEAKER_01: So I think there is a natural progression that whether it is an agency or the existing digital players, they've started going down this path.
29:15
SPEAKER_01: The only question that I'm not able to put a finger on uh the pulse of it is will this transition move in a steady uh you know 10 to 20 percent migration phase which is what we kind of put into our business plan or will I wake up one morning and find that it went up by 40% and and suddenly we are in a different world that we live in?
29:35
SPEAKER_01: I think that's is it and historically out of form has been growing at a steady 7 to 10% with the exception of COVID and digital outer form has been growing at about 30% or so.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: So I think there is definitely scope for this to flick a switch but if you ask me it is going in that direction.
29:55
SPEAKER_02: Since you talked about uh you know trade desk and uh you know it's a follow-up question on that uh so I was going through a report on which they call it as the open internet right which is they're they're talking about the fact that uh you know 50% of the time that Indian consumers I'm just taking India as an example I'm sure uh in other markets uh it's pretty much similar they talk about uh time spent by consumers being 50% outside these media platforms but uh the money spent by marketers is actually five and a half times in those platforms and the need to switch to get the customers to open internet is what they uh they really talk about right so therefore uh do you see that trend across markets now that you are in almost every continent across the world and uh the fact that that is like how you call it the outer net so in fact I would want you to first define what is outer net uh and uh then go back and then say hey if that is the case then how do I plan my media because uh you know uh people tend to move with the uh where the momentum is you know I you know the clients need not question me I just go and say these are the platforms you spend the money okay uh so uh so therefore the fact that you are moving against that type okay is really how I would define your business okay and is is this what the trend that you are seeing so the first question is what is outlet okay uh what is open internet in maybe trade desk's definition and is that how the consumer seems to be moving in terms of time spent on digital which means that platform like cures where you're consolidating data from other parts uh would then become really valuable because then you are really influencing the brand and the subconscious mind for a purchase decision of a brand right so therefore is that the way you're seeing the trend moving right um so to answer your first question on what how we define outer net I think uh the way our definition of outer net is everything that is not your personal property right so if I'm uh on internet pretty much it's my mobile phone it's my laptop it is my device that you're connecting to whereas an outer net is something that you're connecting or uh you're experiencing something in the real world as you move around.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: That's been our definition of the outer net.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: Now uh the the the second aspect of what you talked about and I do believe that um uh at different points in time I would have different opinions.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: Uh four years ago or seven years ago it was a concept.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh four years ago I saw a lot of resistance uh to the concept when we tried to scale it up and I would say the two years of COVID was a complete washout uh because uh everybody stayed at home and there was no need for media in the real world so uh we we we you know the outer net was not doing well to put it uh mildly but I think post-COVID I think the tide is turned uh the reality is when you have conversations with a marketeer or with an agency the marketeer appreciates the fact that the audiences are not responding I had a CEO of a bank tell me I can get any number of likes and clicks but it doesn't change my business in any way right so they're coming to that realization that it's not um measurement is a fantastic thing.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: It gives you that warmth feeling but you know eventually it has to translate to real business for me to accept that it has made a change.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: So I think they are open at either a marketer level or like I mentioned the agency is hugely incentive now to say that they need to build themselves as a consultative omni media planning engine.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: So I think the tide has definitely turned and even the media owners publishers that I jokingly said have not changed, have started changing and they are deploying technology.
34:07
SPEAKER_02: So I think one of the interesting conversations I had with the largest media owner in out of home I managed to meet the president when they were about to sign an agreement and he said and this is a massive company and they said Srikant we are not signing for software we are signing for digital transformation because the way we sell we did face to face with three agencies bulk of our business went through them but now we realize that we need to self-serve we need to be online we need to do programmatic we need to do so many different things it's about changing the culture of the organization as well so so I think if you ask me the tide has turned and it's reflecting in our financials it is reflecting in our growth um and um so I think I'm bullish about that aspect of it right um but to to come back um it's only the rate at which this adoption will grow I think that's going to be what we are all uh trying to uh kind of shape and define um and uh um you know I think that's that's really how I would put the current state of as well yeah and like you mentioned certain markets are different perhaps uh markets like India was not digital out of home was uh let's say a year ago or 15 months ago not uh that common but now if you drive around in Mumbai Delhi uh forget the indoor uh airports train stations I think you're seeing a lot of roadside digital signs as well and that actually in many markets the roadside digital signs shaped the growth of the industry because uh you know when people drive around or when they travel around they notice that and and you know so I think even in India we are seeing a big shift in the last six months to 12 months fantastic uh so which brings me to the next question uh Srikant where uh you know many of the brands uh uh by the virtue that they did digital marketing they sit on a lot of first party data right and uh a platform like yours uh uh you know is I think extremely uh ripe okay for this real world experience as you call it because if I was a retailer or if I was a bank okay uh I have my first party data and probably you can do custom audiences okay far more effectively and in a valuable manner because if you tell me I'm in that mall and if you tell me that I'm near that area and actually you can show me an experience and then and therefore drive walk-ins and catchments and this is a fantastic opportunity and do people are they able to connect the way I'm talking you know that's very important yeah so I mean you touched upon what I see as the future waves for me.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean whatever we have talked about today is here now there's adoption etc and you asked a question on the open internet which I kind of uh uh did not answer effectively uh and I think it is linked back to what you talked about as the first party data right so if we take a step back and we looked at what the open internet was it was open data that was available and the sites were also kind of fragmented and aggregated.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: But I think with privacy norms and the cookie crumbling and many other things, the open internet in terms of data richness has started coming down.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: And then you've got the wall gardens who are not reporting uh perhaps as much as we would like to see uh in a in in terms of how the data is being built and used in um in these various campaigns.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: So you then you're left with not much of a choice.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where the first party uh data streams will come into play and clean rooms will come into play.
38:03
SPEAKER_01: And and suddenly you would start seeing I mean like we have seen today besides the Facebook uh traders uh uh Google you've suddenly got players like Amazon who have come into the retail media and then you've got uh Walmart which has pulled together their retail assets so you've got two different types of retailers you've got a your digital first retailer and then you've got a physical retailer who's also gone digital and I think those guys are going to come in with an element of first party data which is not restricted to first party media and and that's where it opens up the open internet and it opens up even the digital out of form.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: Because even we have these conversations at at various levels, right?
38:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean I go into a bank or even into let's say clients like Put Panda and I say listen, you know the geographical concentration of your clients and you know the geographical concentration of where they are ordering from.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: Now can we figure out whether the media plans in terms of you reaching the audiences have um you know uh that in mind.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: With a Rideshack company we literally zoned out uh click of apps of a Rideshack company A versus B across you know 50 market centers and we told them you know 30 you're done I mean you're way behind the other.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: What do you want to do?
39:23
SPEAKER_01: Do you want to fight to retain uh your locations current where you are leading or do you want to go back and win back in some of these that you're losing the battle in so I think it it changes the game completely when such first party data which doesn't have to be at a targeting level that's the beauty of a digital outer foam.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: My first party data is still used as a at a summary aggregate level to determine which location at what point in time without intruding on the privacy of an individual.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: So I think a lot of first party data is going to come into play.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: And then you touched upon retailing which is even one step beyond what we talk about as a first party data and the open internet and I think the progression of the industry is going to go there.
40:07
SPEAKER_01: We are doing a pilot with a complete digital play who has harnessed so much of first party data and they're saying how do we use this not just from an outer net but use it from both an internet and an outer net and should I be setting up even a small media arm of that business?
40:25
SPEAKER_01: So I was having a conversation with a CMO and where he was saying that he can see in 10 years time that they would form their own club.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: So a bank, a telco retailer and and whatever would say let's start leveraging our first party data not in a very very privacy compliant manner because it's not used necessarily with the exposure of the data that an open internet where trading of data happens.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: But here it's done in a bit more privacy compliant and in a structured way.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: And if a retailer comes into picture and it's a product that is getting sold on the retail then suddenly it can get direct influence on sales which moves the needle again.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: So if you look at it I think it's still got some waves beyond the automation and that's where I said the first focus is the 40 billion that's getting automated.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: The next focus is put 40 and 400 together and now let's start seeing how a first party data of clients can shape how this whole loop and the journey can be really mapped.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: And that's where we'll hit upon sequencing as a concept in terms of how you sequence the client.
41:34
SPEAKER_02: Fantastic Sri brilliant explanation to how you use first party data.
41:40
SPEAKER_02: I do believe Srikant that the other important opportunity that you know I think visionary CMOs need to look at a platform like yours is to actually say hey maybe 30% of my billboards are you know are all digital the balance 70 is there.
42:03
SPEAKER_02: But I do have app data which tells me where my customers are going, where are they traveling?
42:09
SPEAKER_02: And therefore am I able to uh you know sync up that data with your platform and then go back and then say hey even it may not be digital but am I present in the journey that my customer is traveling and therefore huge amount of leverage is what they need to get and therefore is that not an opportunity that needs to be leveraged.
42:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
42:32
SPEAKER_01: No brilliantly sets for me I mean I'm gonna use that use case uh thank you for popping it up um in fact you can take it one step beyond right I mean and again certain industries not relevant for but let's say a retailer or a bank etc which also has a physical presence you know I walk past a bank the other day and they have two digital screens one located uh facing outside the bank using the uh glass door that they have and the other one was inside the bank and both of them were running the same content so I just stood by and I counted the number of content pieces running and it was about 16 pieces of content.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: So I called the CMO who happened you know whom I happened to know and I said listen you run 16 pieces of content on what I would call as a walk past audience and a sit-down audience no don't you think that's a mistake you should be running four pieces of content in a walk past area and a 16 perhaps in a sit-down area.
43:26
SPEAKER_01: So I think this whole if you look at again everything history repeats itself if you look at the digital industry clients got excited they put a lot of budgets into what I would call as ad tech and subsequently they looked at it and they said hey I have a website I have certain digital properties in place and I need to now influence the experience so suddenly from paid media the focus also got moved to owned media.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: So imagine everything that we talked about till now is still paid media But a lot of these clients also have not just first party data, but they have owned media where they should look at their 5,000 branches as an opportunity to build a media business.
44:14
SPEAKER_01: And today, when I counted that 16 pieces of content on a bank, one was an airline promo that they were doing, the other was a coffee promo.
44:23
SPEAKER_01: No, so they do have all these promos.
44:25
SPEAKER_01: And I said, listen, you're running the same promo in every branch.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: What if you brought one small location awareness which said the coffee outlet is in the third floor of this building?
44:36
SPEAKER_01: Now suddenly you're changing the game in terms of the experiential content, which is instinctively what they do on a website.
44:42
SPEAKER_01: If you hit the website from Goa, they would give you a slightly different piece of content.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you hit it from Delhi, they would give you a different piece of content.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: But they've not brought that thinking into their owned media.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: So I think there is first party data, owned media, and eventually then you'll start looking at it as an Omni Media.
45:01
SPEAKER_02: So therefore, the CMO of tomorrow, uh uh Srikan, the way I'm looking at uh the marketer of tomorrow, uh, I think the marketer of yesterday was a static market uh, you know, marketer, which is to say, hey, I have a creator, I just have to, you know, dump this creative in some media, okay, to actually saying, hey, I have to be a dynamic mindset-driven marketer, which is to say I need to contextualize it very, very differently.
45:31
SPEAKER_02: And is that the way a marketer and a brand need to go?
45:36
SPEAKER_01: Right.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: And and I think it'll go one step beyond what you have explained, also, Swami.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: I think eventually, I mean, uh, being passionate about this industry, they used to say marketing is an expense line.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: Now they are trying to figure out how it could end.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: And I was listening to your a couple of podcasts on this subject and research of how marketer CEOs behave differently from you know, uh finance uh uh CFO to CEO journey, right?
46:01
SPEAKER_01: So I think uh from being an expense line, I think now they're getting attention to say, you know, uh they are actually adding to uh the income.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: But I think there is an opportunity for them to start thinking of them as a revenue line, even directly, especially when they own first-party data and media.
46:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, retail industry has just got so much of uh wealth and debt uh that can be tapped into in terms of closing the loop with their first-party data and first-party media.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: So do banks, so do uh telcos, uh, so a lot of the traditional um industries where marketing was seen as an expense line and perhaps now seen slightly differently, has got one more growth phase where they could be seen as non-core revenue generating line or uh building strategic partnerships and networks, which allows a strong uh point of presence of the brand across uh you know multiple multiple areas.
47:02
SPEAKER_02: So so therefore, uh, if I were uh you know a young marketer, uh and if I was an experienced marketer, I think one of the things that you're really talking about is the changing of this mindset, which is to say, you know what, I walk in, I have performance marketing, I have connected TV, I have uh, you know, uh traditional TV, I have sponsorships, I have this and that.
47:24
SPEAKER_02: But the fact that you have to think connected marketing uh and you have to think dynamic content and you have to think contextual and you have to think data.
47:34
SPEAKER_02: Okay, and you have to think uh, you know, uh walled garden data, you have to think your data.
47:40
SPEAKER_02: Is that a framework that you believe a CMO needs to start looking at?
47:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
47:46
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of what you described would be parts to that framework, I guess.
47:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh and and and they need to think along those lines.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: But I think there is also, I would go a step higher, even when we do some of these analyses, we look at people who come to these locations and what do they do next?
48:03
SPEAKER_01: Where do they go next, right?
48:05
SPEAKER_01: So, because then that gives you a journey not only in terms of where you have reached them, but potentially where you should be uh in terms of collaboration and partnerships.
48:16
SPEAKER_01: I think that's really how uh one is a framework for the advertising money or the marketing money that's been allocated.
48:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:26
SPEAKER_01: I think there is a framework for that.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: Then there is a second framework which says, how do I bring my own assets uh in terms of first party data and potentially some physical assets that I could uh have into play in a meaningful manner?
48:42
SPEAKER_01: I think then there is a third part of that framework that I need to start thinking about, which is to say what would be the kind of strategic partnerships that I would be doing at a marketing level, which gives me the point of presence and that uh, you know, uh strong brand recall uh when it comes down to um, you know, my consumers' uh top of the mind recall, right?
49:05
SPEAKER_01: So when when you look at it, I mean that's why even I know Apple is used for many, many different uh reasons.
49:11
SPEAKER_01: They're they they're used as case studies.
49:14
SPEAKER_01: But a couple of things that I've fascinated is they go and take the best locations for their stores.
49:19
SPEAKER_01: Um and and and I'm sure the PL of those stores still do well, but I think uh the reason they select that is to be in the Piccadilly circus, is to be in the Singapore uh waterfront.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: So they so that their visibility of that brand is also achieved through that.
49:36
SPEAKER_01: So strategic placement of their brand is also what they look at.
49:39
SPEAKER_01: And again, they use billboards very cleverly in terms of an extension to the product in terms of short-on iPhone.
49:46
SPEAKER_01: So that there is, yes, there is a cleverness in terms of how they do it.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: But I think if you ask me, there has to be three frameworks.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: One is execution framework of an Omni Media, and I think AIML will make it a lot easier, but they just have to find the right platform and the right partner to work with in terms of automating that process of thinking.
50:06
SPEAKER_01: Then they could move to the strategic decisions on how do I commercialize my data, uh, my locations, etc., in a privacy compliant manner, and then they could look at what would be the partnerships that gives me a broader leverage.
50:19
SPEAKER_01: So I think the first part should be automated in my view, and I think AI will automate.
50:24
SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
50:24
SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, what you're really talking about is uh, you know, this whole area of digital OH, or even if you were to call it uh, you know, I you I don't see moving walls just as an overhead business, but it's actually saying it's a it's a real-world experiences business because I walk into a retail, I have digital signages.
50:44
SPEAKER_02: I go into a restaurant, I have digital signages.
50:47
SPEAKER_02: I go into uh you know a mall, uh I have digital signages.
50:52
SPEAKER_02: So the fact is you are enabling a digital experience, and therefore uh you can your platform, which I think you've got patents and you've got uh you know millions of big data that is there, you're looking at moving mobile data that comes in, you're using your AI and ML there, and therefore, I think three benefits that you're talking about is you uh you know, you have to think like a you have to look at a reach booster, you've got to look at it as a content content amplifier, and you've got to look at it as a you know contextual content.
51:23
SPEAKER_02: So if I'm a CMO, when I'm looking at my marketing, uh, you know, I have to look at all my channels in an Omni Media in this format, and you probably are looking at it in that format because a trillion dollars gets spent in advertising, right?
51:38
SPEAKER_02: And therefore, uh, you know, digital is only one part of it, but the real world experiences are going to remain, and therefore, how do you really envelop for the consumer is really what I think your vision is, right?
51:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes, and it always comes back to a simple question, right?
51:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know eventually we are uh you know uh, you know, we we we have uh uh the ability to address a consumer in a very personalized manner, but eventually we are also consumers, so we have to come back and say what is our experience.
52:06
SPEAKER_01: You know, just I think two weeks ago I was in India and I was using Amazon app to uh get, let's say, sketches, because it's a product that I know.
52:14
SPEAKER_01: But when I started typing for sketches, there were about four or five brands that appeared to me, and they all were cheaper than sketches and they were tempting for me to click, which I did, and I know there were sponsored ads.
52:25
SPEAKER_01: I clicked through and I looked at it, but the confidence was not there because it's not a brand that I know and trust, right?
52:32
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's the bottom line of consumer behavior that we are all moving towards the activation in a digital channel, but whether the influencing and whether you know the priming is happening in that channel or not is a question mark.
52:48
SPEAKER_01: And I think once marketeers understand that concept, then it becomes easier for us to then say, listen, we can either start with your existing digital campaigns, perhaps take 10% of your budgets so that we can start priming it and influencing it in a better manner, and then we'll start seeing how your digital campaign performances.
53:09
SPEAKER_01: And definitely we have seen uh with our clients, and there are some published ones like even Arasia come out and published, and with AAMS, etc., that we published a few case studies, food panda and others, they start seeing that a small investment in the I don't want to use the word top of the funnel, but in the top of the funnel, but in a scientific way, actually helps uh in the activations and the conversions.
53:34
SPEAKER_01: I think that's the conversations that we have with advertisers or marketers now.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: And then the conversation ships, like I said, a few we have started having is the first party data, where we say, you know, why don't we leverage your first party data so that it's not based on open data, but it's based on your data that we are running this whole thing.
53:52
SPEAKER_02: Fantastic, fantastic.
53:54
SPEAKER_02: So uh so Shrikana, I'm going to move into something a little more uh, you know, your entrepreneurial journey in terms of uh, you know, uh the fact that uh your entrepreneurial journey has been in multi-waves, if I were to call it.
54:09
SPEAKER_02: And uh building even something like this, where I believe that uh, you know, there was not a solution available inside, but you just get in there.
54:21
SPEAKER_02: So, how do you really work with technology teams, with domain teams?
54:26
SPEAKER_02: How do you bring them together?
54:27
SPEAKER_02: And if you were to tell me three or four things that an entrepreneur needs to look at when solving problems not solved before, uh, how do you how do you uh advise and what are the five things or top five things that come to your head to say, hey, look at these three or four things.
54:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they they have a saying in Tamils for me that uh if you know yourself, then conquering the world is uh so simple, right?
54:53
SPEAKER_01: So so so in that sense, I think the first uh checkpoint that you need to have is to say, what are you good at?
54:59
SPEAKER_01: And you touched upon my entrepreneurial journey.
55:01
SPEAKER_01: So uh uh, you know, I think the fact of building a global company did not scare me because I had lived worked globally in three, four markets and I'd worked for IBM across a couple of markets in Japan and in Singapore, etc.
55:16
SPEAKER_01: And I'd lived in the Middle East, so that was not the scary part.
55:19
SPEAKER_01: Um and um being entrepreneurial also in this wave did not scare me because we had built knowledge dynamics from 2000 to 2006 and we had a reasonable exit at that point in time.
55:31
SPEAKER_01: So I knew okay, I could build a business.
55:33
SPEAKER_01: But what scared me was to build a product company because I had absolutely no idea uh of how to build products, right?
55:39
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's the first uh acceptance that you need to have that what are you good at, and um you know, and and start uh doing that.
55:49
SPEAKER_01: So I think for me, building a product company was uh something that I did not necessarily know.
55:54
SPEAKER_01: So I had to take help.
55:56
SPEAKER_01: I had to uh you know lean on a couple of mentors, advisors, uh Kumar Vembu being one of the you know uh advisors who kind of stayed with me from the beginning.
56:06
SPEAKER_01: I said, listen, I don't know how to build products.
56:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh come in, talk to my team, help me through the thinking process, etc.
56:13
SPEAKER_01: But obviously, you know, if they could spare um you know an hour a week, that in itself was great.
56:19
SPEAKER_01: And then I needed to do my homework around it.
56:21
SPEAKER_01: Uh and to support that, what we did is we acquired a couple of small tech companies which have built products, but probably they built products for the wrong market or the wrong time and didn't have the sustaining capability.
56:33
SPEAKER_01: And with that, we brought in some talent of people who had already built some things, right?
56:38
SPEAKER_01: So I think uh understanding your strengths and weaknesses and then reaching out for help is probably how I would classify the number one rule.
56:47
SPEAKER_01: Uh, then it starts getting a little bit easier.
56:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, the second problem I had was, like you said, it was what I would call as the serenity migration.
56:57
SPEAKER_01: Everybody was spending money on digital, and here I was talking about out of form, where it was not uh necessarily a topic which made an engineer or uh you know a smart guy jump into the bandwagon and say, I want to join moving walls, right?
57:12
SPEAKER_01: So correct.
57:12
SPEAKER_01: So I had that challenge, how do I attract the talent?
57:15
SPEAKER_01: So went through some frustrating formula.
57:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean, to build services company, it was very different.
57:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh we had clients, we paid top dollars, we could bring them in.
57:23
SPEAKER_01: Sure, we every business model has got problems.
57:26
SPEAKER_01: We built some IP around it, made it an IP-friendly company, but it was still not a product company.
57:31
SPEAKER_01: I would say it was a services with IP.
57:34
SPEAKER_01: That was the first journey.
57:36
SPEAKER_01: So I think here I looked at it and I said, How do you solve it?
57:40
SPEAKER_01: And I actually realized a simple formula, which is um below 30, above 50.
57:46
SPEAKER_01: So that was my hiring principle, right?
57:48
SPEAKER_01: So I went to people who were above 50s and I said, uh, listen, especially people with children who had graduated, etc., and they had done a lot of corporate uh stints.
57:59
SPEAKER_01: So I went to them with a promise to say, hey, you can build a global company.
58:04
SPEAKER_01: But don't ask me for too much of money, I can't afford it.
58:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh but then your children are well settled, and and you're also well settled.
58:11
SPEAKER_01: A lot of them had paid off mortgages.
58:13
SPEAKER_01: No, they didn't have that heavy commitment.
58:15
SPEAKER_01: So the above 50 I was able to attract uh reasonably well.
58:19
SPEAKER_01: And a few of them I call them even catalysts, where it was a fractional role that they came in.
58:25
SPEAKER_01: But I but I was not paying them, you know, anywhere close to market uh level.
58:29
SPEAKER_01: Um and below 30, I paid market level.
58:32
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's one formula that I started adopting.
58:35
SPEAKER_01: And even now, if you look at um, you know, the company, uh, we may be about 130, 140 office now.
58:42
SPEAKER_01: And I would say above 50s are still a significant 20% of the company would be in that zone.
58:48
SPEAKER_01: And uh 30 to 50 would be thinly spread, 20 to 30 would be like 70, 60 percent of the people.
58:55
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's one formula that I learned uh that worked for me, which may or may not work for everyone.
59:01
SPEAKER_01: Now, um, you know, and and we talked about creativity earlier, where I used to you know complain to say that it's not that the advertising industry has creativity, every business should have creativity, right?
59:12
SPEAKER_01: So for me, the 30 and 50 was one creative way of finding the talent.
59:17
SPEAKER_01: The next problem that I had to solve, which I because eventually, if you solve the talent problem, I think your business problems will start taking care of itself.
59:25
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if I'm making sense, but to me, I had to know how to build the product, which I didn't know, and I had to solve it through a particular way, then I need to attract the right talent.
59:34
SPEAKER_01: And even to 2030, I looked at it and specifically because our first offshore center was in Malaysia, not in India.
59:41
SPEAKER_01: After acquisitions, we came into India.
59:44
SPEAKER_01: So in Malaysia, specifically our offshore center, I was having trouble finding people, and I created an internship model, and I found that it was not working.
59:55
SPEAKER_01: So I you know walked up to my HR and I said, I want to see 10 interns, and we were like headcount of 20 or 15 or something.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_01: I said, your KPI is there should be 10 interns in the office until they become a nuisance and we start taking them seriously.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_01: So, and internships was the way that we kind of found the 20s to 30s.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_01: So I would say uh, yes, there are the fundamentals of business, which having built many businesses, I still fail on, uh, which is cash flow, which is not getting carried away with what the opportunity is.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_01: And and I think those are all the fundamentals of any business that you need to put in place in terms of good planning, uh managing your cash flows, um, having good sales teams, all of that is a fundamental of any business.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_01: If I had to pick two or three things differently, I think these would be my two or three things differently that I had to have.
1:00:50
SPEAKER_02: Very interesting, very interesting about the talent, the way you looked at it, Srikant.
1:00:54
SPEAKER_02: I never thought that could be a way to look at it, but very interesting perspective.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_02: So, today you are present in uh how many countries, and uh, can you give us a perspective of uh the scale that you have reached?
1:01:07
unknown: Okay.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_01: Um so we uh we have physical presence in offices in probably about seven markets, uh uh primarily in Asia Pacific and in the US in a small way, um and uh Africa, Middle East Africa in a so APAC, Middle East Africa, about seven um seven to eight markets.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_01: We have physical offices.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_01: Then we cover the rest of the markets remotely with two hubs, uh, with Kolalampur as being a hub and uh Chennai being a hub for us out of India.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_01: So these are the two resource pools where we do have uh both sales marketing uh and uh engineering and technical support, customer support people located in these two markets.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_01: Um so um uh we are about 130, 140 people now, and uh uh it's still a very hub and spoke model that all my presence in these markets are small, three to five market-related teams and the rest of it GitHub.
1:02:06
SPEAKER_01: And obviously, uh, you know, building my first business in uh 2000 to now, there's a massive difference that uh you have access to things like uh Zoho and uh you know many tools that we didn't have access to in 2000.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_01: So the way you build businesses now is that you get the best tools out there, and all you need to do is to focus on getting the right people and putting the right processes in place.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_01: At least uh tools are no longer a problem.
1:02:33
SPEAKER_01: So we are all connected extensively, everything uh is online we uh and the two years of COVID helped us to you know even um uh smoothen it.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_01: But I think uh building a business has become a lot simpler now compared to my first experience.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_02: And uh from a platform perspective, what's the scale of assets that you hold there?
1:02:56
SPEAKER_02: What's the kind of uh uh you know data that you process there?
1:02:59
SPEAKER_02: So can you give me a scale of how you have achieved the scale that you're talking about?
1:03:04
SPEAKER_02: Because you're a one-of-a-kind company in the world.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_01: So when we talk about our uh number of assets on the platform, I would say probably uh we have uh close to uh I would say about uh close to half a million assets that are tagged onto the platform for which we do the data processing.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_01: Um so uh we I don't know what, but we probably process a few billion data points every day.
1:03:34
SPEAKER_01: So it's a massive, massive uh task.
1:03:38
SPEAKER_01: And many times I've shown that to people, including my close friends who are uh entrepreneurs, and they say they don't know how to process this.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_01: When I went to them for advice when I had problems, right?
1:03:48
SPEAKER_01: Because they don't see that kind of a scale.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, but we also look at a couple of other lead indicators which are important, uh, which are what I call as uh a TMV and a PMV, which is how much of media do I have on the platform?
1:04:03
SPEAKER_01: And uh um, which is if I in an ideal situation, if I had a client who uh is willing to consume all the media on the platform in an automated way, what would be my revenues?
1:04:13
SPEAKER_01: So currently we are at about uh 300, 350 million dollars of media that we have aggregated or uh not aggregated, but I would say tech enabled uh in a meaningful way for us to serve real-time content into.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_01: Um so that becomes a substantial amount, which uh kind of led me to another thought, which is to say how do we utilize this media?
1:04:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are some case studies in MIT on how food wastage has been solved with some charitable causes.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_01: So I looked at this as media wastage because I have visibility to 300 million, and I'm probably doing 10% of that.
1:04:50
SPEAKER_01: 90% of that, I'm not able to find clients, which means uh 90% of that is expiring.
1:04:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, uh, you know.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_01: So we said, why don't we bring all of that together?
1:05:01
SPEAKER_01: And we just launched something called as moving hearts, uh, which is to bring social costs.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_01: So any social cost can hit movinghearts.media and put up their content and put up their creative.
1:05:12
SPEAKER_01: I will match that with the location of their choice.
1:05:15
SPEAKER_01: Market by market, we are rolling it out on a non-guaranteed way where they will get exposure for free.
1:05:21
SPEAKER_01: So that's about 300 million worth of media.
1:05:24
SPEAKER_01: Then we also look at, because we work with agencies who use our platforms, we look at how much of media are we influencing uh because they are using our planning data sets, they are using our data, et cetera.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_01: And that's probably a couple of hundred million.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_01: So those are uh the data points in terms of how the business is built.
1:05:41
SPEAKER_01: Then we look at this half a million, and we've got a strong enterprise SaaS business that we built during the COVID, where we go back to these publishers and say, How long are you going to be uh uh you know uh tech resistant?
1:05:54
SPEAKER_01: You've got to adopt tech, not just for automation of sales, but even for content, for measurements.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_01: And so on.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_01: So we uh sell that as an enterprise SaaS with a few modules.
1:06:05
SPEAKER_01: That business has grown um post-COVID in the last two years, at uh you know, last year we grew at about 800 or 850%.
1:06:13
SPEAKER_01: So it's growing dramatically fast as an enterprise SaaS business.
1:06:17
SPEAKER_01: So that we look at it and say, we if we have mapped uh you know half a million assets where we have relationships with them, and today out of that half a million, perhaps only 5,000 assets are paying me$10 a month.
1:06:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, what is my uh SaaS potential without having to talk to a new client?
1:06:35
SPEAKER_01: I just have to figure out how to convert this uh you know five uh five hundred thousand uh guys into a ten dollar SaaS paying monthly, and that suddenly puts it in a different league for enterprise SaaS business as well.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_01: So many of this hard, what I would call as input metrics or um you know, I would call them analog work that we have done in relationships and integration are all laid out as pipes.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_01: Now we're doing the conversion process.
1:07:03
SPEAKER_01: We're laying new pipes as well because we are not in Europe and US uh yet, but you would see a couple of press releases that come out uh over the course of the next week or so where we would be announcing some US presents as well.
1:07:15
SPEAKER_01: So we're laying some pipes in new markets, and then we are looking at pipes laid and seeing how do we convert it faster.
1:07:22
SPEAKER_02: So, uh, what's your aspiration personally over the next uh you know couple of years?
1:07:28
SPEAKER_02: So, where are you seeing yourself and where where are you seeing uh personally what's exciting as a professional and on a personal side, what's the excitement that's keeping you uh going every day?
1:07:40
unknown: Right.
1:07:42
SPEAKER_01: Um I guess I'm an adrenaline junkie, so the fact that you're building something keeps me alive and uh keeps me moving forward.
1:07:50
SPEAKER_01: But I think there are um, you know, this maybe if I take it at a very philosophical level.
1:07:55
SPEAKER_01: So I mean some people, even investors ask me what is your exit plan?
1:07:58
SPEAKER_01: And and I would tell them, listen, there were exit points along the way that I can show documentary proof of, which were reasonably good, but you don't build businesses for exit.
1:08:09
SPEAKER_01: I still think the industry has got potential and we'll keep building it and we'll keep building the value.
1:08:15
SPEAKER_01: I think that's the way I want to look at it.
1:08:17
SPEAKER_01: That uh run up, you know, get to profitability, which was one of the big milestones for us, uh, and scale.
1:08:24
SPEAKER_01: So suddenly if you've got scale and profitability, then you just keep growing.
1:08:28
SPEAKER_01: And yes, um, if if something meaningful comes along, either in terms of emerger or in terms of uh, you know, even listing, all of that, those would be possibilities that you can look at.
1:08:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh but I think you have to build, so that's why we keep focus on the input metrics, how many agencies have started using my tools, how many media owners have integrated it, and meanwhile, how am I meaningfully uh um making a difference to the society we live in?
1:08:56
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it could be through cash, through uh foundation, but we are not there yet.
1:09:01
SPEAKER_01: We are a small company, so I'm trying to leverage my network and and I'm saying, listen, I can bring this to a good cause.
1:09:07
SPEAKER_01: I think that's really what the motivations are.
1:09:10
SPEAKER_01: And beyond that, I think it's also about people.
1:09:12
SPEAKER_01: One of the things I truly believe in is um, you know, I started this business with three other co-founders who are still with me.
1:09:20
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, it's a journey that we have been through.
1:09:23
SPEAKER_01: And I think uh beyond that, I've got a lot of the 50-year-olds who have come in to build a global business.
1:09:28
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm in in some ways I'm answerable to them as they are to me, in terms of making sure that this journey is rewarding for them.
1:09:36
SPEAKER_01: So I think eventually you you've got to bring it back to human emotions for you to find uh motivations for you to go forward.
1:09:43
SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
1:09:44
SPEAKER_02: So, Srikanth, on that note, uh you're really building something truly transformative for the marketing world, something that's not seen uh in this part of the world, but probably you are disrupting it from the uh Asia-Pacific hub to the uh you know developed markets.
1:10:03
SPEAKER_02: So something that you have built is truly amazing.
1:10:06
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for taking time and talking to me.
1:10:09
SPEAKER_02: It was very informative, huge amount of learnings.
1:10:12
SPEAKER_02: And tomorrow's marketers, the way they need to think, is something that you are outlined beautifully, and thanks for your time.
1:10:22
SPEAKER_01: Pleasure talking to you, Swami.
1:10:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, many times uh when you speak to people like you and you ask me all these relevant questions, I'm kind of expressing some of my hidden uh suppressed or invisible thoughts that come out.
1:10:36
SPEAKER_01: So thank you for giving me that opportunity.
1:10:38
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, thanks, Shikan.
1:10:39
SPEAKER_01: Thanks a lot.
1:10:40
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:10:45
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening to this episode.
1:10:48
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