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Building Software for Overlooked Markets - Ryan Sinnott · Coffee with Developers

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, welcome back to Corgi Cafe.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here with Ryan Sinitz.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, Ryan, we've just bumped into each other here in the Corgi Cafe.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, now I will say we like to start off most of our kind of sit-downs with talking about what we're drinking.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got a podcast called Coffee with Developers.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've gone for the 11 Labs, and you can get a whole range of kind of sponsored by by various tech companies' uh drinks here.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you've gone for the water though.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm assuming you've you know drank all the coffee there is and you thought I just need to detox now.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I'm at that point right now.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've hit my certain caffeine threshold.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: I go any higher, you know.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: I feel good for about 10 minutes and then I feel horrible.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's best not to chase the dragon, I think.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's true, that's true.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, you can be forgiven, right?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you're in the Corgi Cafe, what you're seeing is it is 24 hours, yeah.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so you're seeing people, we've got somebody behind us even doing a um a 24 hour challenge, um, and everybody's building and working on different uh different projects.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, we got talking just uh about something completely unrelated, and then we got talking about what it is you're building.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, can you tell us a little bit about what it is?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what's it called and what problem does it solve?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so the the app itself is called Feed Forward, uh, and and we just found a big thing in the trading world.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think you guys here call them blue-collar workers, is they'll go out, they'll do a job, they'll break their back, they'll work really hard, and then when it's time to get paid, they just straight do not get paid.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and they we found there's there's really no course that they can go down to to get that pay.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we built an app, basically a social media, that allows tradies and blue-collar workers to call out clients who don't pay.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you'd be amazed because we keep seeing the same names over and over again.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, my first thought with that, you know, is that of course it's um it's an industry we maybe don't hear a lot about, you know, especially out here in San Francisco, where we're seeing a lot of uh, you know, startups and kind of founders that are building things either for other tech companies, you know, or are very much targeted at people that are technical in some way, um be it developers perhaps.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: But you've gone with a uh a niche, if you like, that would be not to kind of you know uh cast aspersions, but maybe not known for being you know technologically the most um up to date.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um but so how did you kind of find that niche?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: What gave you the idea for the for the project?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it was it was my co-founder who actually came up with the idea.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: He's a plumber, he's just gone through this so many times.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, he has a good story, he owned a bunch of plumbing businesses and whatnot, uh, and he was actually in an explosion, right?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: And he was in hospital for months.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: And while he was in hospital for months, he kind of all he had was a pen and paper, and he had this idea and he wrote it down.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I I kind of came into it a little bit later.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: So a little bit about me, I I love to build apps.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: I like I generally, you know, I talk about I don't know if you ever heard the story about the frog and the scorpion, where the yes, the where the frog uh takes the scorpion across the river, and the scorpion's like, I promise I won't sting you, and then they get to the end of the river, and of course the scorpion stings, and when the frog asks why, uh the scorpion just says, Because I'm a scorpion.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I feel the same way about building, man.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: I uh there's no way around it.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: I am a builder, I love building apps.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and as I was doing it, I you know, I I found a real talent in it.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then others started to see the talent, and people kept telling me everywhere, it's like if you build this app, I was the secret to whatever their million-dollar idea was.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you can build this, we can make millions together, da da da.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: But with this one, it was just this idea of like we can make a change.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like we see this injustice, we see it for what it is, it's a horrible thing.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: You do work, you deserve to get paid for what you've done.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we can change the world, we can make the world just a little bit fairer.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, that's kind of like the moral of the way I live life.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: I can't make your life perfect or great, but it's like I can make your life a little bit better whilst you're with me.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, if I can I have this talent that I have, and you know, I I I want to push it on a scale where I can actually help people.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: If I've got the idea correctly, um or if I've I've understood the idea correctly, um, is there it's a social network for kind of for the tradesmen themselves, is that right?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that they can see um maybe customers who aren't paying, or is it more holding the tradespeople accountable?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, it's definitely the customers, and the the reason I I kind of want to go as a social media is is because it's you know it's trading made, right?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: I I think we're working on a team.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I come here and it's like every single person here is building a SAS.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, what do you think the most popular apps are in in the world?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Social media, everybody, absolutely everybody's on it.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I just don't get why is everyone trying to build a SaaS?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, well, you know what I mean?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I I think about like people will sit there and they'll vibe code something in a day and think it's worth$10 a month for someone.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, that's how much Spotify is.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: I can get the whole collection of music that has ever been released in this world, or I can buy your shitty vibe coded app.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, where do you think my$10 is gonna come?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's people are building stuff that they wouldn't even use.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I I saw this thing and I saw this opportunity, it's like, well, it makes sense that this thing would be a social media because part of the social media is the product itself is the clientele, is the people in it, and it's like I know that the the users in themselves are the people that are going to build this product, so you know for me it's like making this uh it's the art of it, it's it's making something that they feel you know welcome to express their self and and and their ability to create it.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, and like you said, it's like with the money, it's like it comes and goes, right?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like you build something and eventually money will come.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I I'm so passionate right now about the idea of making something perfect for these people.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like that that's all it is, man.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's really infectious.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I could tell that you know before we were speaking on camera, you know, that you're really, really passionate about what you do.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, one thing with an app like this, when we're talking about you know social media, we've got things like reputation, you know, and of course we we do see on on some social networks, you know, that it can be a very risky business, right?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, if if somebody puts something out there that's untrue or is perhaps uh you know def uh defamation of character and things like this.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so has that kind of influenced maybe the the markets you look at?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because I can imagine, you know, uh despite this being something that's targeted um at kind of individuals or or or smaller businesses, I can imagine that you know um there must be a specific market you're looking at because different countries have different laws.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um so has that influenced anything for you?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um as far as like specific markets, uh uh markets, sorry, uh I think it's important to start niche, start small, and expand out from there.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because I just think if we're trying to please everyone, then we're pleasing no one, right?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you think about like people aren't gonna use apps that they think are average or good or great.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: They're only gonna use the stuff that they really need to use.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, so we need to get it so specific, so a group of people specifically need to use that app.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then once we work that out, yeah, then we can expand it to different businesses because we've found as we've told people this, you know, we'll go up to hairdressers, and hairdressers will go.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've had people who have cut their hair and they haven't paid, and you know, you we go up to people walking on the street, you know, there every single industry has some form of this.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we just want to make it perfect for this right now, and then go from there.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's something really interesting as well about the time that we're we're living in in relation to this app, because I remember about it must have been 10 years ago, there was this learn to code trend.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And this was, you know, when people started to worry about um uh you know autonomous vehicles, or they started to worry about the increase of kind of um smart things, you know, smart living, smart cities, um, automation in kind of all different areas, people started to worry that it would mean that the only way you could protect yourself was to learn to code, right?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that you know, by being a part of that.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now it seems to have gone the other way where people are saying lots of these jobs will will no longer exist because of AI, and that now we should all perhaps be going back to learning trades.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um so is that is that in any way kind of played into your thinking that you know are you looking at the kind of bigger picture of where things are going?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's fine because we did talk about this uh off-camera.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: You you talked about how for our generation it was all about going to uni and and getting an education, and that was the way.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like now that now this today, it's like it's probably better that you don't go to uni and you kind of go out and you do your own thing.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I think there is a big uh kind of predicting how the future is.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: The reality is we don't know.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, obviously the the signs are good there, but for me, I I just know that like I look at it and I I see what's out there.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Someone needs to clean the toilets, someone needs to build the buildings.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's got to be a long time before robots can do that.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so the the opportunity is there, but honestly, you can't at least I can't get caught up on that.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: I can't be like, this is what's gonna happen.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because anytime I've been like this is what's gonna happen, it's never happened.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's very true.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's very true.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean there are a lot of big predictions going around, and I think um, you know, I think I think generally though, I would agree that you know that the sense that it's gonna be a long time before you know robots are actually kind of replacing any any of these kind of more manual jobs or more labour-based jobs.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think you know, before we kind of even think then about the idea of you know if there's enough regulations and legislation in place that for for humans when they're doing it, yeah, um, would we really be offloading that to robots anytime soon, right?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of risk there.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um so how about the kind of marketing of this?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you've come over from Australia, yeah.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um of course, if our if our viewers haven't figured out that lovely accent.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, thank you.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you know, uh, you're over here for 10 days, right?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um is this to just sort of being amongst you know other builders, or what's the purpose of the trip?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a number of reasons.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one, obviously be around like-minded people.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: That was for me, that was the biggest thing.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: You I I you know, I have a real passion for this, and and when I talk about people like you've got to go to San Francisco, San, excuse me, we can add it that out, San Francisco, because that's where the hub is and that's where all this stuff is happening.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a big, you know, just being around it, I think iron sharpens iron.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think that's an important thing.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, seeing investors, just seeing what people think of it outside, because we we know what we've got's good.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we know, like within our little bubble of where we are, people are real interested.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: We put something out there and and people are people are loving it, but you know, San Francisco apparently, you know, it's like New York, right?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's true.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how do you feel then?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: How's the sort of validation process been, you know, in terms of when you're speaking to tradespeople, what what do they feel?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, honestly, man, they they love it.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's generally why we keep doing it.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: It I talk about it's it's like when you don't have to sell your own product because when we tell them what's going on, they'll tell their people.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny, we we've worked with a bunch of content creators, and as we've found with them, a lot of them are former tradies, which is great for us, but we'll call them up and we'll say, you know, this is our app, and they're like, wow, that's a great idea.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: I remember the time that da da da da da da da da this happened, and all of a sudden, five-minute conversations are talking to half an hour conversations because that's the thing about like an emotional response to something.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: You love, love to talk about the time that someone f you over.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone does, and you know, I think that's one of the things that people don't get when that when it comes to sales.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's like there's people can tell right away when you're just there to make money.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: For us, it's it's bigger than that.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we can generally change these people's life, and I think they feel that.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think they they see what we're doing and they see that we're the right people for it, and you know, it's it's been a great relationship of you know, working with the users.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: We uh we call them, we ask them what they think about it.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: They trade is a great, right?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: They'll tell you, they tell you exactly what they think, and you know, we're bit by bit, they'll they'll let us know little things, and it just gets better from there.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: For many people, kind of in the world of development, um, you know, we may be in kind of nine to five jobs, uh, we we may be founders, but there's often a kind of full-time job in the background, and we'll and we'll we'll get to that for you in a in a moment.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, for tradespeople, it's it's quite often not getting paid is going to mean not paying your mortgage, you know, employees not getting paid.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so this has like a real tangible effect, doesn't it, on those people's lives.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that must be quite a good motivator for you, right?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely, man.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like one of those things that I think the thing that really sold it to me, at least, is it's like they talked about a story, it's like imagine someone let you into their house and they're super friendly and they're super kind, they smile, and they laugh at your jokes, and they knew the whole time that they were about to f you over.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, doesn't that hurt?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like when I heard that, I was like, oh, I get that.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because everyone's been around someone like that before.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, don't you want to stick it to those people?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't it feel like those people don't get their accountability, right?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's the big thing.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you know, it's a big accountability thing, uh, at least for me.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: So let's kind of focus in a little bit on you know uh your your background then.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: So um we talked about kind of uh quite often builders might have a full-time job in the background.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um what's your sort of story?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Are you uh are you VC funded?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Are you hope to have any investors, or have we got a full-time job in the background?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing at all, man.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: I have a full-time job.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm uh by trade, I'm a school tech, so I I kind of sit behind, uh reset some passwords, and uh you know fix things up.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: I've actually found it to be a really good training ground because the biggest best thing about schools is you see technical experience from the worst of the worst, kids that don't know how to turn on a computer to teachers that know, you know, when I hear like a teacher will give me a call and say there's an IT problem, I'm like, fuck.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you can't work it out, I'm not too sure if I can work it out.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: But it's great that I I get to see that whole spectrum of how people use devices and how people use computers, and you know, it's it's it's real world evidence, and I've kind of taken that approach to being like, you know, how can I build something that you know the the lowest like the the someone that only knows how to make phone calls can use as well as the and it's like it's not too simple that the person that at the top can do what they need to do with it.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, so by trying my school tech, I work full-time, and then anytime in between I I do this stuff, I'm uh I'm a dad.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's just uh, you know, I I just love this stuff, man.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I generally love what I do.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: I love being a school tech as well.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's the that's honestly for me, the scariest thing about this all working out is that I get to no longer be a school tech.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, yeah.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I think it's a it's a really cool thing, and it's it's kind of given me the confidence to just kind of push this because I know if this all fails, it's like I'll just I'll go back to being a school tech.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I know other people kind of look at it the other way with like I don't want to do this job anymore, but man, it's it's been such a motivator for me.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, you know, I I find with the anytime I've been around startup people, and I I I want to be respectful because I don't believe it's everyone.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: There's a term called Tor Poppy syndrome, I'm sure you've heard it.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I think there is a little bit of that when it comes to this stuff.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: You it kind of feels like there isn't an abundance of it, you know.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Certain people get certain spots, and you know, I I think it's quick when someone's coming up in this world to bring them down.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas with teachers, it's like by design, teachers, at least the good ones, are looking for kids with talent or potential and to try to foster that.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I've really found that with with the teachers that I work with, is like they can see that I'm really passionate about this, that I don't shut up about it, and that that it's something that I I really want to achieve.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, they're they're always super supportive, super fostering of the stuff we do, and yeah, I I really really like it.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a lot you you touched upon there that's really interesting because you know the tool poppy syndrome, you know, I'm obviously from the UK, and we we definitely have that in our in our culture, and I think it's it's a known thing.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think you know, obviously much of our audience will be based across Europe, and so I can't really speak for any individual countries there in saying kind of how that might be viewed, but um, you know, obviously coming over from Australia, you know, do you find that there's a kind of cultural difference or or do you maybe feel slightly more free to dream big if you're in the States, or or or is it just something you think on an individual basis it's not really a cultural thing?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean for me personally, it's uh I kind of go to the beat of a different drama.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Most people aren't passionate or really care about something the way I care about this.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I I respect that, I I get that work's hard, but man, for me it's just it's something inside of me.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's generally I I think I I I just have this confidence that it doesn't matter where I am, that I I can change the world.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it's naive, maybe it's crazy, but I think you have to, you have to be at least a little delusional because for me, I think that's the potential, right?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Even if I don't hit my grandest goals, right?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: At least I have a point because you never want to set them too small, because you'll probably hit them.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: You'll probably hit him, and you you'll realize that you know it wasn't what you expected.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think that's true of every result of anything.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I yeah, for me, it's just no matter where it is, I'm just enjoying the pursuit of it, man.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: I just whatever it will become is whatever it'll become, but yeah, it's just it's fun.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's fun.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's drill into the the the tech a little bit then.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: So um you you at the moment you're working with a co-founder, is that right?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um now did you what were your conversations around whether you were looking at kind of the tech stack to use, or you know, is there anything in common or or or kind of what was the what was the the thinking?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what platforms are you on, for example?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the mobile app or so it's on the mobile app, but as far as so he's a plumber, he's uh his tech abilities as it's funny.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: I uh there's this thing I I've learnt in uh working at schools, I call them one-finger typers.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've all seen them.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: The ones that do and if I see someone as a one-finger typer, I know I'm gonna have a lot of problems with them.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so my co-founder, he's a one-finger typer.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: So he he's uh he's very much, you know, for me it's uh he's very much the business side.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: I whatever he decides with the business stuff, that's on him.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: He's owned his own business, he understands that world.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I've got to be humble and say I don't get it the same way you get it.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: And as far as the tech side, it's like he's like you have free range of how it's gonna look, how it's gonna feel, and it's cool.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's like for me, like like I say, it's an art, right?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's for me, it's my canvas.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: I get to build it in the eye of the way I think it should be done, and it's kind of cool.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's a social media in the way that I like it to be done, you know.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've gotten more I I guess specific or like really looked at how they're built, you know, the the social media itself.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh you know, I I like the factors of this social media, I like the way that it's like, you know, I like the way the feed looks in one, or I like the way the profile looks in the other or the chat.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so as as far as that, as far as tech stuff, it's like I just get it with port code.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, and this is the thing, I think people are kind of getting struck with this AI stuff thinking it's a real technical challenge.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't see it that way.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: I feel the stuff that I do, I could teach 90% of it within a day.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: If we sat here right now, I could tell you what I do, and you would go home and you'd have some idea.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I think the final 10% is just kind of coming up with those ideas, right?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's not a technical problem, I tell people, it's a creativity problem.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: You need to find the pain points, you need to come up with solutions to them, and then you just need to talk forward.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So much of what I do is so little technically.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it I feel it's more like I'm the boss, the AI's my employee, I'm just telling them what I want to do.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there's some really interesting things that you know um when you're kind of looking at those other markets.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what we hear quite a lot is that for for a lot of Vibecoda founders, and I don't say that with any disrespect, but um the that sometimes there's the fear that there's um security issues that maybe they're not kind of aware of, that only really kind of show themselves to be problems when when there's a major problem, you know.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously in the EU there's things like GDPR make making the the fines very heavy around you know misuse of data.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think that was something that you you kind of mentioned before that you're saying, you know, we we uh it seems like actually there is an element of um not because it means that you can play fast and lose with anything, but that that um that you did mention that there is um a lot of legislation in the EU or around you know places like the UK that could make it difficult for actually an app to be or perhaps uh maybe there would be a little bit more work to be done before it would be launched in a market like that.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you kind of navigate that?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so as far as the security question, it's it's actually a great question because I hear it all the time.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think in itself vibe coding is insecure.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I just think the people that build these apps aren't thinking about security, right?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: So another bit of background about me, I actually was a corporate security engineer for three years.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I I've kind of been around it.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I wasn't a I wasn't a great one, but I understood right away how important security, you know, being in the environment where there's a security breach, you you kind of feel and sense what that stuff is.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um so for me personally, it's just uh kind of making sure I every time I do something big, I'll do a security audit.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: All you have to do is ask the the AI to do a security audit, see what's going on, and then just fix those security problems there, right?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's one or two extra prompts that saves you a ton of headaches down the line.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: But as far as like going into the European market, that one's gonna be tough.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I you know to I think it's going to be towards the end.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: We'll look at the European market as we we start to jump into other markets.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: But uh yes, there's a lot of legal stuff that we'd have to go through.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's a a lot of things that we have to, you know, you know, cross our T's, dot our I's, which is hard when it's like with this vibe coding stuff, it all happens so fast, you know, to kind of slow down and be patient with it.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's uh I it's a process of things, right?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's I can tell you there's 200 different things I need to do right now.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I'll get to every single one of them eventually.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that's just uh that's number 201.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: How are we gonna get into Europe?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know, cross that bridge when you get to it, yeah.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think there's definitely something that's interesting how as well.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: When you're when you're in an area like this where you're around so many other um founders, do you worry about copycats?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Have you had any copycats?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um and what what would you say to anyone who thinks um, okay, well if you if you can vibe code then I can do the same and it's just a case of prompting.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say to anyone who who who kind of thinks that way?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: There actually is a copycat uh that actually uses a number four as well, we're feed forward.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but as far as copycats go, um yeah, it's very easy to build things, but distributions are m man.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want to go out and build the same that we're building, like you're good good luck, man.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I I generally mean it because it is hard.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: It is very it's not gonna you're not gonna vibe code something one day and then have something that people want the next.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: It generally doesn't happen.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I I like the fight, I like the competition a little bit, you know?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: I like I like that someone's trying to do what we do because they die out.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen it uh time and time again, they die out so quickly.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: They they see how hard it is and they die out.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, it it is what it is, man.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I I generally I thrive yeah, I I thrive on it, man.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: I thrive on just being like, oh man, you you you want to try this, be my guest.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where this kind of like passion comes from, right?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I mean you you kind of speak to any kind of CEO, right?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we all know that there's or any founder, and we all know that there's this stereotype that they they they don't sleep, they're obsessed, they live off of coffee, right?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and all they want to talk to you about is the thing that they build.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um which is I think pretty cool, actually, because it it means that okay, it's not for everybody.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're not trying to sell everybody the hustle grind culture, you know, um sleep on a mattress in a one-bedroom uh you know, SF, that kind of idea.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: But but there is certainly something um something to be said for you can tell when someone's passionate about something.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: And um so do you find that are you taking that kind of grassroots approach with things like marketing, like knocking on doors, uh stopping trade tradespeople in the streets?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um because I feel like this is the sort of thing where if you if you think too digitally with your marketing, you might not actually uh you know actually land with the potential users that you're trying to land with, right?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean definitely we've been stuffing mailboxes, we've been knocking on doors, going up to tradies, we actually got a fine because we start putting advertisements on the freeway, right?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And apparently we're not allowed to do that.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's just uh every person we can get in contact with, because at the end of the day, it's like more than us trying to push it out, we're trying to help these people.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we we see it as an opportunity to give them something that will help them because every time we every single trade, every single one that's ever owned a business, and you know, anyone listening right now can go up to their trade friend and ask them and go, has someone not paid an invoice?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: And they're going to love to tell you the story about how they didn't pay the invoice.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're going to love because they've been waiting.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: They've been waiting, it doesn't matter if it was yesterday, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, whatever, they've been waiting to tell that story to someone, they've been waiting for someone to listen.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there's something to that, especially when it comes to a social media.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: When when people love to talk about something, they'll talk about it there.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think some of these conversations I've had, a word that keeps coming up is substance, and um that there's a sense from most founders, you know, that they're saying there's something, there's a lot of things that are out there in the market that don't have substance, that maybe um you know don't really solve a problem or people don't really believe in them.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I can certainly see that idea that you know for you it's it is something that you you you you you feel you're solving a problem, which I think and your your customers are telling you you're solving a problem, um, and that there's a bigger thing than just going back to what we said at the start, than just making money, right?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um what's the sort of end game then around you know things like in investment or you know bringing in um outsiders?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um because I feel that there's there's something really authentic at the moment that would probably land quite well with your customers, right?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um so does that kind of in any way play in?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean we it's always on our mind, investors, right?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then we can move certain ways, but you know, it's it's a give and take, and you can't be desperate for it.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: You can't need it.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I see this a lot in San Francisco.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, yeah, when I get investors, I can do X and I can do Y and I can do Z.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm so focused right now on just doing making the best out of possible.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's where it's at.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And if someone wants to come in and help us out, and we think that they can really help us out, then be my guest, right?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like that would be great.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: But we don't need them.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like we don't need them.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: If they happen, it happens, but yeah, honestly, to answer your question, I I just want to go out there and meet people like me.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is like like me in this industry, you people that want to make a change, and you know, if if investors that are out there and and and they are interested, you know, I I just want to make sure that they're interested in the right for the right reasons, you know.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know, Ryan, I'm really glad you made that 14-hour trip over from Australia, and you're looking a lot fresher than I am, and I had a shorter flight, so I don't understand how that works, but it's been really good to sit down and chat to you, and I really appreciate your time.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh thank you.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you'd like to say anything else to our audience, you know, give yourselves a shout out and uh and we'll be sure to put the the URL and the link there in the description and on the video at the bottom.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh just to let you guys know, I appreciate you all.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my app's called Feed Forward.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Take care of yourself.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Love the ones around you.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're a good guy.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Ryan.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate it.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate it.