Latest / Boner and Mirror Tarot / The Lovers Would Ruin Your Life
Transcript
- Molly: Hello and welcome to Bona and Mira Tarot, the delightfully irresponsible little sibling of Bona and Mira Tarot. My name is Molly and every week three Tarot cards will end this podcast. One gets fucked, one gets married and one gets pushed off a cliff. It's childish, it is completely subjective and it is surprisingly revealing because if you know me and you know Bona and Mira Tarot, you'll know that I don't believe the Tarot is about predicting the future. It's a mirror. a way of meeting yourself through symbolism and psychology, embodiment and the wisdom of the cards. And Bona Emeritaro takes exactly the same approach, just with a lot more giggling. put three tarot archetypes through the highly scientific and deeply philosophical game of fuck, marry, push off a cliff. Which archetype deserves your undying devotion? Which one's worth a passionate fling and which one absolutely needs to get into the sea? Along the way, we'll explore what the cards reveal about attraction, avoidance, projection, shadow, values, and the wonderfully strange ways we make meaning. Expect depth psychology, archetypes, embodiments, the odd tantric tangents, and plenty of opportunities to laugh at yourself. And if you want to take the game off the podcast and into your own tarot practice, then I've made something for you. A little field guide called Tarot After Dark. It's packed with ridiculous tarot games, guided reflections, explorations of projection and desire. So you can make your own terrible decisions. and then get curious about what the hell that might reveal about you. you can grab it completely free through the link in my show notes or the link in my bio on Instagram. So whether you're here for the psychology, the Tarot or your own deeply irrational grudge against the Seven of Cups, welcome to Bona and Miratorro. Let's shuffle the cards, suspend our dignity, and see who's getting married today. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Bona and Miratorro. I'm very excited to welcome Rosie today from Wild Oracle. Rosie, big welcome and would you love to, or please would you, tell us a little bit about who you are, what it is that you do, and your relationship to tarot and meaning making. Rosie: Thank you for having me on Molly, this is so fun already. Yeah, so hey everyone, I'm Rosie and I am a transpersonal coach and I'm also an intuitive sound healer and a tarot reader as well. And yeah, all-round enthusiast for all things symbolism, dream work. Jungian psychology, depth psychology, all of that type of world, magic, the occult, just deeply, deeply fascinates me. I'm a real seeker and curious being, so I'm always in some kind of research rabbit hole. And yeah, my relationship to tarot, I started learning the tarot, I think it was in 2020. And... always had a bit of a pull towards it, it was always a bit of a curiosity and like the edge of my world. And then once I started delving into it, I just loved how layered it was, like there was this kind of initial layer of symbolism but then it just seemed to like open up and go like deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and it's just kind of like this bottomless this bottomless pit of meaning that you can just keep unraveling and keep unraveling and keep unraveling, which I found deeply fascinating. And yeah, I guess something that I really enjoy about Tarot is once you have the kind of basic symbolism memorized, I really enjoy how relational it gets, like building really personal intimate connections with specific cards and the way that those cards will pop up throughout life and so I usually for each card there are at least like a few moments in my life or a few stories that I'm like that card really spoke to me in like this moment and also the comedy that comes with that you know just like it has such a sense of humor often when a certain card pops up and it will just I'll burst out laughing so I'm like you again So yeah, it really, I find the tarot really helps to bring me a sense of connection with the great mystery, even though we often go looking for answers. It simultaneously brings me clarity and also brings me deeper into, Molly: All right. Rosie: yeah, the humbling of being inside of the great mystery that we are inside of. Molly: Thank you so much. I absolutely loved the way you described that kind of bottomless pit of meaning. Specifically like this morning, like just before we started recording, I was thinking about what does it mean to like to read Tarot? Like read is a really interesting verb that we use and thinking about like reading a book and how I'm currently reading a lovely fantasy fiction called The Vile. Villain Ladies, I think it's called. Very, very good book. And I was thinking about how I read that and how there are some moments where I could, because it's about Lady Macbeth and Clytemnestra, I could pause and I could highlight and I could go away and research this particular symbol in this myth. And I could, you know, look at the particular words that being used. And that could be the way that I make meaning. Or I could simply allow the text to wash over me and be swept up by feeling and how that is very similar to the way we read tarot. can absolutely go into the minute detail and highlight the words, write annotations and we can look, go away and research what does a wolf mean, what does a dog mean, what does the crayfish mean. Or we can look at it and simply lie back in its like... it's just beautifulness and both Rosie: Mmm. Molly: of those bring us meaning in some way. And of course, I totally agree with you, there is always an element of comedy when you build these kind of quite intimate relationships with certain cards and intimate but maybe not pleasant relationships with others. Rosie: Yeah! Molly: And my deck certainly has a real sense of humour of just not listening to anything that I say essentially or just she really calls me out in my bullshit, which is really enjoyable. So I am very deeply grateful that you are here with me exploring being in the great mystery by playing a very scientific and philosophical game of fuck Rosie: Mm-hmm. Molly: Harry, fuck Cliff. Rosie: Ha Molly: Are you ready to make some questionable choices? Rosie: So scientific. Yes. Absolutely always. Do it for the plot. Molly: Right, okay, cool. Let's pull some cards then. So I'm gonna pull three cards as always. And let's see what arrives. okay. This might be a challenging decision or it might be an easy Rosie: I'm so excited. Molly: one, who knows? Okay, Rosie: Hahaha Molly: this so far in my recording process, know, I'm bulk recording, so using the summer and the kind of energy of Leo to get lots of recording done. So far, this is the most positive set of three that I've had. Rosie: Hell yeah, love that for me. Molly: love her for you but it could make the decision more difficult so Rosie: Okay. Molly: we have the nine of cups Rosie: beautiful. Yeah. Molly: We have the three of cups. Rosie: my god, amazing! Hell yes. Molly: and we have the lovers. Rosie: You are right, this is gonna be really fucking hot. Molly: right? I pulled them and I was like Rosie: Sorry. Molly: so lovely, so much joy and I was like hang on a minute we have to push one of them off a cliff. One of them has to go. So yeah three of cups, nine of cups and the lovers. Who are you fucking? Who are you marrying? And who is unfortunately bye bye off into the sea? What are your initial thoughts? Rosie: my god, this is so hard Molly. Damn. Molly: Yeah Rosie: my god. I want to both fuck and marry them all. Can I be in a polyamorous deep loving relationship with all three cards for the rest of my life please? my god, this is going to be so difficult. I mean... My initial instincts are the three of cups. I kind of wanna marry the three of cups. I think I Molly: Mmm, tell me. Rosie: wanna marry the three of cups. The three of cups for me is like so connected with like community and sisterhood and celebration and like. Yeah, that, like when I see the three of cups, I always really associate it with like my closest circle of friends who like I meet with every week and we just hold each other through all of the ups and downs of life. And like when one of us is like crying, we're there to hold it. And then like the next minute we're laughing and just the full spectrum of being a human and being able to hold that in community and also in this like really light. playful, celebratory energy. Like Three of Cups also feels like festival season to me, like dinner parties, like all of that type of energy and I do, I love it. Like I could do that for the rest of my life and be like happily married to that. And there's like a steadiness and a depth to that that I would happily commit myself to till death do us part, you Molly: Mm. Rosie: know? I really, I feel that so deeply. But like, I mean, we've got Molly: you Rosie: the lovers in the part. We've got the lovers in the part. But then also, I think, I think fuck the lovers. I think fuck the lovers. I think when I think of the lovers, I'm thinking of like great sexual chemistry, like getting completely and utterly lost in like the reflection of somebody else. But there's also danger there, you know? Like, there's also danger there with the lovers of, like, where are you, yeah, getting lost in this reflection of somebody else, which can be like a beautiful kind of dissolving experience and also, like, with those blurred boundaries can come a risk of losing yourself and, Yeah, I guess, becoming so entranced by the sparkly, beautiful reflection of somebody else that you forget to really anchor into your own light and into your own heart. So yeah, The Lover's always feels a bit edgy for me when it comes up because it's like, whoa, this is going to be like big and like very expansive. And there's also like undoubtedly going to be some kind of big karmic lesson here. At least that's the case that I've usually found. So, so I think, I think fuck the lovers. Like that sex is gonna be great. Whether it's gonna be a super long lasting, steady, stable type of relationship, there's maybe a question mark over that. But it will be hella fun, undoubtedly, undoubtedly. Hella fun, hella fun. Molly: Hmm, hell of fun, absolutely. Rosie: Wow, these are such interesting cards to pull. Love this. Which then I guess means push off a cliff the nine of, nine of cups, but like that feels so sad to push the nine of cups off a cliff. I don't really want to do that. Molly: No, I, so far I totally agree with you. Like the, the Three of Cups for me has always been such a prevalent card in my journey. You know, like Bone and Mirror Tarot was once called Solent Sisterhood for when I was trying to create a space in Portsmouth, South Sea, where I live. for like-minded people to come together and it wasn't even based on tarot when I first began it was just based on connection and nature and I just wanted to meet people that were like me and in that period of time the Three of Cups came up over and over and over again until I yeah until I'd built something where I had you know those types of connections not just the you know I'll go out for coffee but will go out for coffee and then I'll tell you my deepest, darkest secret and you can see my soul types of connections. Rosie: Yeah, perfect. Molly: And then obviously my pages has transformed somewhat, but it just brings me back to that space of like, these are people that will hold you in all spectrum of life. it also brings me back to a practice that I did. I did a teacher training called, which is queer inspired movement. When we did the final intensive part of the training, we did a practice where we were wrapped in blankets called Closing the Bones, like the Closing the Bones ceremony. And you're Rosie: yes, yeah I'm familiar. Molly: wrapped in blankets and shaken by all the people that you are surrounded by. And it was so beautiful, like just being wrapped and held and like the symbolic nature of it. And that is what I feel like the three of cups is and I agree with you. I want to marry the three of cups and Rosie: Mm-hmm. Molly: I also agree that the lovers would be a wild night of passion potentially the most passionate night out of the entire tarot deck Especially this particular depiction. They look sexy Rosie: I was gonna ask to see the picture again, like I mean, that's hot sex right there, like there is no doubt about it. Molly: That is... Yeah, if you're listening on Spotify or Apple, can go to YouTube to see the picture. They are hot as fuck. Rosie: Yeah. The background is orange, they're looking into each other's eyes, she's like holding onto a lock of his hair, the gaze is like locked in, like they're having a good night. There's no bones about it. Molly: that they're totally in wrapped in one another. But again, feel that kind of like the texture or the flavor of it just maybe not being entirely stable. Rosie: Yeah. Molly: But I think like in its upright form, in its most kind of positive expression, the lovers is the marriage between Logos and Eros and it is the alchemical marriage. Like it's the perfect blending of the two. and invites us, know, invites us as people to look within into our own marriage of Logos and Eros but I think you're right that when that when the maybe not the boundaries because it doesn't need to be like rigid you want them you want them to flow a little bit between each other but when the boundaries aren't firmly held between you know what is in my cup and what is in your cup and who am I pouring into kind of referring back to the two of cups there as the lovers like baby sister. Like when you're not able to distinguish like whose cup is mine now, which what is mine, then I think there is that risk of kind of merging a little bit too much and losing a sense of identity or losing a sense of who you are. But I think I would absolutely be happy to lose all sense of who I am for one night. Rosie: Absolutely, 100 % I'm there with you babe. Molly: Yeah, I'm happy. But I'm so hesitant, right? Because the Nine of Cups is very meaningful to me. Not this particular depiction. I love you, Chrisanne, and I love this deck. for me, this depiction is slightly too positive for what I believe the Nine of Cups is teaching. The depiction of the card is very much like wish come true. Like everything's gold, everything's treasure. And it is. And everything is gold and everything is treasure when... we can acknowledge the way in which the unfolding of the suit of cups makes us who we are. And that is when we've integrated the, you know, when we've experienced the three and we've had that kind of lull of the four and we've gone to the depths of absolute, you know, inconsolable grief. When we've looked back on past wounds with the six of cups and we've had moments of kind of ego despair with the seven. We've walked away from stuff like when we've done all of that, then we can look at life as a gift and everything as treasure because we appreciate our wholeness and in our messiness. And so I'm quite hesitant to chuck that off the cliff. Rosie: I know, I don't really want to the nine of cups off a cliff either. This is a difficult one. But the other two feel so clear for me. And thus this is just Molly: Mmmmm Rosie: what is left. But I don't want to chuck the nine of cups off a cliff either. But then also thinking about like, you know, how each card, there is always a kind of light and a dark aspect to each of those energies. And I'm thinking about the traditional image on the Rider Waite deck. of the little man with his little red hat on and he's kind of looking kind of smug in front of his nine cups and I always remember like when I first learned that card there was this little seed of like but he's there with his nine cups and he's looking kind of smug about it and like actually there's that shadow side of being so focused on like the material and the, they hear this external representation of my success and the lack of soulfulness that can come with that if you're... really tying your self-worth to these external like validations of success. So there's also that little kind of shit that kind of makes me feel better about I'm basically just justifying myself for pushing this off the cliff because I do I also Molly: Okay. Rosie: love the nine of cups but I'm grasping at straws here Molly. Molly: Let's imagine that the card that I've shown you is the Rider Waite Smith and he's got a smug little face and he's like, Rosie: Hmm. Molly: look at how satisfied I am. Look, I'm really satisfied. I'm really satisfied Rosie: Yeah. Yeah. Molly: and you're not satisfied. Ha ha ha. It's sometimes, but Rosie: Yes. Molly: obviously when you feel that kind of like, ugh, then that obviously says that you're projecting, right? That says something about your own relationship to success and validation, but we'll ignore that for now and we'll imagine. Rosie: We'll ignore that Molly because he's getting pushed off a cliff! Molly: We'll ignore that and we'll just imagine that he's a smug little bastard and we'll just go bye bye with your nine cups off the cliff. Okay. Yeah, we can't, I mean Rosie: Unioninecups out of here, out of here babe. Molly: the game isn't fuck, marry, marry. Do you know what mean? Or fuck, fuck, fuck. Like it has, we have to make the decision. So I think we're going to fuck the lovers, marry the three of cups. And I'm so sorry, nine of cups with your smug face and beautiful wonders of treasure of everything that is beautiful in this world you're gonna go off the cliff. Rosie: Yeah. Molly: So that leaves me with two questions for you. Rosie: Amazing. Molly: These are questions that I'm asking everyone on the podcast and those questions are who would be out of the entire tarot deck the best lover and who is the biggest walking red flag? Rosie: I love these questions! my god! who is gonna be, but like I'm kind of, it's kind of boring because it came up, but like I do think the lovers would be the best lover. I do think that that is like objectively the best hot night of passion in the deck, I think. I think the walking red flag loved this as a question. let me feel into this. I mean also actually, sorry, I'm going back to the other question now. best lover I mean I do feel like that actually was coming up for me right now I feel like the queen of cups would be a really good lover like Molly: The queens have made quite a significant appearance in this question Rosie: Have they? Molly: so far. We've had Queen of Wands, Queen of Pentacles and now the Queen of Cups. Rosie: Interesting, interesting. Yeah, I feel like she would be so deeply attuned to like my emotional and spiritual self. I feel like I would just be like going through an experience of just relaxing deeper and deeper and deeper into her until I had completely dissolved in her ocean, you know? Like, I Molly: and Rosie: feel like there would be a level of attunement with the Queen of Cups that would... make me feel so safe and so cared for and so nourished and so held. Molly: No. Rosie: I think it would be really romantic and really soft and gentle and nourishing. It wouldn't be the spicy hot passion of the lovers card at all but I think there would be a level of like spiritual depth and... Yeah, an attunement and nourishment that would come from being in her presence that would be really magical actually. Okay, I'm really Molly: Yeah. Rosie: selling myself on this idea the more that I'm saying this outline. Molly: Perfect. Rosie: I love that the queens are coming up! This is great! Molly: the Queens have made a significant appearance. We've had a couple of other cards come through, but yeah, the Queens are the Queen of Wands. She's that femdom like energy. Rosie: Exactly. Molly: Queen of Pentacles for me is is always like a top pick favourite just because she's so embodied. Like she is so in body and in presence that and then the Queen of Swords hasn't come up yet, but she is quite intimidating and I think that if you were looking for a knight of some Rosie: tree. Molly: kind of kinky wearing collar I think the queen of swords would be a lady. Rosie: She- you are so right! She would be an absolute boss bitch who could really put you in your place in the best sexiest way. Molly: I think the Queen of Swords for me is like a Findom, know, like those the Rosie: 100%. Molly: guys who like want a woman to, well it can be guys or girls or non-binary people that want this experience but predominantly men who would like Rosie: Yes. Molly: a woman to talk down to them or like give like they want to give all their money. That feels very Queen of Swords to me, like she's like... Rosie: 100 % back you on that. 100%. Molly: point. Rosie: I'm also really enjoying this experience recording this podcast as there's another layer of meaning now being applied to these cards. So you're 100 % gonna get a message from me in the future where I've pulled the queen of swords and I'm like, my god, I need to step into my Fyndam energy right now. Thank you, thank you Molly for this additional layer of meaning. I deeply love that. Okay, I feel happy with that answer. Queen of cups for the best lover alongside the lovers, 100%. Okay, red flags, red flags. Let's have a think about this. Weirdly what's coming up for me right now. This is an odd one, but it's coming up for me, so I'm gonna say it. The Hanged Man. The Hanged Man's coming up as a little red flag. The Hanged Man Molly: Okay. Rosie: is giving like... Molly: Mmm. Rosie: non-committal, you know? Like, neither in nor out. He's just waiting around, he's hanging from a tree. He's like, not really giving you a yes or a no. He's just kind of waiting around and you're there, like, come on, like, what is, are we in or are we out? Is this a thing or is this not a thing? And he's just like, just give me a little bit longer, you know? Just need to hang from this tree like a little bit, a little bit longer. Yeah, hangman, red flags. Molly: Hangman doesn't reply to you for four days. Rosie: Exactly, exactly. The hangman is leaving you hanging in a major way. Molly: Yeah. Yeah. Like, we see blue ticks, but we don't get a reply. Rosie: Exactly. Molly: We think that we're ghosted, and then all of a sudden they text back and then we're pulled Rosie: Yes, Molly: back into their bullshit. Rosie: exactly that. That's the vibe of the Hangman. It's incredibly ambiguous. Molly: I see that for you. I personally love the Hanged Man and do find the Hanged Man quite sexy. Bit of Shabari Rosie: Me too! Molly: vibes, do you know what I mean? But I think in his shadow side, I totally see his like, you know, non-committal aspects. Well, Rosie: Yeah. Molly: I want to say an absolutely massive thank you to you for coming on the podcast. It has been an absolute joy and a pleasure. And you named something earlier, which is that the episode has given you a new sense of meaning and if I'm honest that is kind of what I'm hoping for with the podcast. That is, know, like if people can walk away having had a laugh, having enjoyed listening to us, you know, kind of throwing away our dignity and sharing some funny stories and all of that. But if they also walk away with that like, I didn't kind of view that card that way, then that is that for me is the point. So I'm really glad that that. that you brought that up. a big thank you to you. If you're listening and you enjoyed, please do all the fun things such as share, like, comment, et cetera, et cetera. You know what to do. And we will bid you a fond farewell. Goodbye. Rosie: Bye everyone! Molly: And that is a wrap for this episode of Bona and Mira Tarot. A huge thank you to my guests for joining me and making some truly questionable life choices on behalf of the tarot. If you've enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you subscribed, left a review or shared it with someone who would definitely have an argument with a tarot card. And if you've been listening and thinking, I need to play this game, then good news, I have made you something. Tarot After Dark is my completely free field guide to desire, projection and questionable relationships with archetypes. Inside, you'll find Fuck, marry, push off a cliff, tarot date, red flag, green flag, unfortunately hot, and a whole collection of ridiculous ways to play with the cards. alongside slightly more serious psychology of why these games can actually tell us something about ourselves. Because sometimes deciding that you'd shag the night of ones is just funny, and sometimes asking why tells you considerably more than you'd expect. You can download Tarot After Dark for free using the link in the show notes or the link in my bio. And if that gets you curious about the slightly more serious side of my work, come and find me at Bone and Mirror Tarot, where I explore Tarot through depth psychology, embodiment and transpersonal practices. You can find me on Instagram at at bone and mirror Tarot, where I share readings, workshops and all the ways that I use the cards as a doorway into understanding ourselves a little more deeply. And finally, if you're listening and thinking I would love to come on the podcast and make some terrible decisions of my own, I would genuinely love to hear from you. Send me a message and let's make it happen. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, keep laughing, keep getting curious, and remember, we take the tarot seriously, we just don't take ourselves too seriously.