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Authentic You in the Workplace with Leadership Expert, Lisa Schmidt · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:11
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:36
  Hi, everyone.
• 0:37
  It's Roxanne Derhodge of Authentic Living with Roxanne.
• 0:39
  Thanks for tuning in again, this week.
• 0:41
  This week, I have a colleague, Lisa Schmidt, that's with me.
• 0:45
  Today.
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  We've been together earlier this morning.
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  We spend, or have been spending.
• 0:50
  I would say the last Minimally 2 months together for an hour every morning through
• 0:57
  this, this different time.
• 0:59
  So Lisa and I are presently involved in our writing group, which has been fantastic.
• 1:03
  We're just talking about the benefits that we've gained, and it's not just been a writing
• 1:07
  group, but it's really been a space where we get to share some phenomenal things with our
• 1:11
  great minds.
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  So Lisa brings a wealth of wisdom with her.
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  And, today, we're gonna just talk a lot about leadership, but I'm gonna tell you a little bit
• 1:20
  about her background, so that we could just dive right into it because I can't wait to get
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  into it she's a a seasoned coach speaker and leadership expert.
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  She have helped executives and organizations gain clarity and act with courage in crafting
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  their powerful strategies along with, necessary culture that allows people to make meaningful
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  and powerful contributions throughout their work.
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  So, Lisa, tell me Well, like, first of all, like, I know a lot about you, but, obviously,
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  the listeners aren't gonna know a lot about you.
• 1:54
  What?
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  What got you wanting to work with leadership?
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  Yes.
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  Well, you know, it wasn't one of those things where, you know, you're in high school and
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  people say, what do you wanna do when you grow up, and I would answer, well, I wanna work with
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  leaders.
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  That was not my epiphany at the age of sixteen or seventeen.
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  In fact, it wasn't my epiphany until my late forties when I had enough experience in the
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  workplace, and I work in organizational development.
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  So I've worked in leadership development and in coaching but it wasn't until I had enough
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  experience in the workplace to see the impact over time of the difference between what good
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  leaders, and I, you know, I'll put good in in in some some light quotes versus less effective
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  leaders.
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  The on people around them, not just on the team's productivity or ability to create
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  results, but on how people had a lived experience of the workplace.
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  And I I've I've always had this interesting, quest I've had a question that that's been
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  interesting to me.
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  About this idea that professionalism is this sort of container in which when you go to work,
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  it kind of a muffling of who you are.
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  There's this idea of acting professional, and I've been very resistant to it.
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  Which I think has, resulted in the fact that I now work for myself because I find it very
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  difficult to work in organizations when I can't bring my intuitiveness and my sometimes
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  interrupting behavior because I have a great idea, and I don't wanna lose it.
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  And also I'm in my fifties.
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  So if I don't say it now, it's gone forever.
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  But these workplaces where we're not incur like, we're told bring your full self, bring
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  your best self, but there's so many leaders who don't actually don't have the capability to
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  create an environment and accept that that's when you invite that in, there's a whole big
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  personality that comes with that.
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  And, so my interest in working with leaders is to really help them understand that they are
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  not there to command or control, but they're really there to develop people and to create
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  environments and to catalyze, I think the best that people can bring to their to their jobs
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  and to their roles.
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  And I think, you know, myself as a young executive in the culture that's, you know, I
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  was thinking into my mid twenties, late twenties, the exposure that I had as a young
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  executives, it was definitely very autocratic and, you know, and coming in, you're like,
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  okay, well, what are the expectations of me in this new leadership role, but that was a part
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  of me.
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  And truly, you know, I can think of myself, and I'm thinking, you know, I'm the type that I'm,
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  you know, I'm intuitive and connected and and like to be collaborative.
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  And I remember in in, you know, many of, different situations where I was told, you need
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  to be more autocratic.
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  You mean, you need to be more dictatorial than your role because people are gonna take you
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  seriously.
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  And I would be like, well, but don't think I'm getting the most out of people when I do that,
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  but back then, it it's almost like I had to stifle that in in the different, companies that
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  I went into in order to be taken seriously obviously as a younger female at that time, but
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  also in a senior role.
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  And I remember struggling with it, but I kinda pushed it as much as I can so I could kind of
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  fit.
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  So is that kind of what you're you're talking about, you know, like leaving the and I think I
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  think the authenticity of yourself kinda like, you know, oh, I'm Roxanne, Derhodge, and then I
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  enter the corporate environment, and I'm this morphed iteration of something that people
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  think they need to see.
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  Me act as.
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  Exactly.
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  And one of the things that I've noticed over the course of my professional life is this.
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  There's a theatricality to the workplace.
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  And so just briefly, right?
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  We wear business clothes or business casual.
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  Right?
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  We put on our cost and we use language in the workplace that we don't use in any other part
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  of our like, who goes around in their personal life talking about low hanging fruit or, you
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  know, harmonizing the synergies or, I I can't even think of them all right now, but I've just
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  heard them my whole life and it's like a there's a script.
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  There's a language.
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  There's a costume.
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  And then there's, you know, the act.
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  Like, you know, the the act of change management.
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  Right?
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  So we bring in a particular cast of people and regardless of whether they have the skills to
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  enact change, we need to be representative of different parts of the organization.
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  So we we like we do these things that are highly performative that I think get in the way
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  of actually going, who loves to do this kind of work?
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  Who's got some skill sets?
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  How can we make this work for people?
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  What's the impact we wanna have.
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  But now it's all like, you know, we enact planning, right, because planning is part of so
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  there's this part of and what you described Roxanne is you know, this and I I think what it
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  refers to because, you know, I've been in the workforce.
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  I'm in my fifties.
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  I've been in the workforce for quite some time.
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  That there was this idea that was inherited from the military or from, you know, very
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  patriarchal structures about what leadership meant.
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  Right?
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  It was the, you know, the almost done thinking like the man on the hill or, right, this idea
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  that there was this sort of you don't share what you feel you know, you're commanding and
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  controlling as as you just described.
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  And, you know, when you look at, you know, the comparing coercion to getting people to do
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  things versus an internal commitment to have an impact.
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  It's the ladder that gets really good work done.
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  And you know, you and I probably were had role models who were telling us ignore your
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  instincts on working with teams.
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  Do it this way.
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  And so you're right.
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  You know, we steal ourselves to go into the workplace and perform a role that doesn't align
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  with our values, but, of course, we wanna in, you know, earn a salary.
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  So, you know, we we agree to this exchange, and then we realize over time that doing these
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  things that are inauthentic actually erode part of who we are and exhaust us.
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  You know, I get I gotta get tell you this story.
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  So I went virtual back in 2003.
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  So at that point, I'd had, you know, 4, sorry, 3 or 4.
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  I'd had my son, and I was commuting a lot.
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  I lived here in Niagara.
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  I worked in Toronto.
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  It was it was, you know, now I think that I thought, where was my brain at that point?
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  But anyway, if they were younger version myself.
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  And then I, you know, had this young child, and and I was like, woah.
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  There's no way I can keep this up.
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  So I, you know, I kind of was quite lucky to be able to kind of be the first iteration of being
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  virtual.
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  And at that point, it was like new, right, to the corporate world at that point.
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  And what I had done, and I didn't realize at least at that time is I, you know, with
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  everybody around me, so the accounting you know, department and the IT people.
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  I had formed relationships with all of them.
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  Because I would talk to everybody.
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  I would just you know, I also say this is my, you know, this is my Trinidad end up bringing,
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  you know, growing up in a small little island and and things like that.
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  So I really made a lot connection.
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  So in fact, so here where they are, they're setting up the virtual and all of that.
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  But, of course, you know, with, you know, a new system, everything went wrong.
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  So I would call, you know, I'd call up to Toronto, and I would talk to the IT guys, and I
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  would talk to the accounting people, then I'd talk to marketing, and I'd get all these things
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  done.
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  And other executives would say to me, how do you get shit done?
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  You're in Niagara Falls.
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  You know, we're in Toronto.
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  On Bloor Street, two offices over from the people that we need stuff done for, and we
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  don't get it done.
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  And somehow you were able to.
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  I said, you know, I at the time I was making these connections, I had no clue that I was
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  gonna go virtual.
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  I'd already been in my position for about 4 or 5 years.
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  And I said, you know, it's really now I realized I didn't realize what I was I was just
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  being myself.
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  So I could call up to the IT guy that nobody would talk to because I would always talk to
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  him.
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  And say, hey, Jamie.
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  By the way, I don't know what the heck's going on here.
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  Can you help me out?
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  So when I would pick up the phone and say, hey, how you doing?
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  My god.
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  I'm stuck in Niagara Falls and everything's about to fall apart.
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  He would actually get to my item first.
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  And now I realized that that's all it was, that because I was taking that extra effort and I,
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  you know, you you know, I talk a lot about authenticity, I didn't realize that
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  inadvertently because I was connecting and getting to know him.
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  You know, and he was the guy that nobody saw, but was quite quite instrumental in running a
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  lot of everything related to all the accounts.
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  Everybody managed.
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  He was very powerful.
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  So I got these things done.
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  So I would share that with my my team after, and they'd be like, oh, yeah.
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  Okay.
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  That's just because it's you.
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  It's your way.
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  And I'm But it's
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  but isn't that interesting?
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  It sounds dismissive.
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  Oh, that's just you as opposed to relate to, you know, wow.
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  What could we learn from relating to somebody with respect and authentically connecting with
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  them.
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  Yeah.
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  And I talk about nothing.
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  Right?
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  I'd be like, what do I know about IT?
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  I didn't know anything about it.
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  I'd be like, Hey, what's what's going on back there?
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  Because, you know, nobody knew where the IT department was until you really, really needed
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  them.
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  So you gotta source it.
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  So I think, you know, that's an interesting thing because in leadership today, we know the
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  power of, you know, servant leadership and shoulder to shoulder and connection.
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  And you, you know, you said earlier it's about connecting at a such a deep, profound deep
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  level that performance comes naturally out of all of us.
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  I think of us, you know, you know, in our groups in the morning, and we all wanna we all
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  wanna perform at at our capacity, whatever that is, but it comes naturally out of us because I
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  think that's just the humanness of all of us.
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  I absolutely absolutely agree.
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  You know, I've had experiences in which I've coached leaders who had this strong bias to,
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  well, if I'm not telling them what to do and I'm not checking in, how do I know that they're
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  not, you know, doing the things or the ex meeting the expectations?
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  And I said, well, what if you flip the conversation around and say to them, you know,
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  something like, you know, what kind of leisure do you need me to be?
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  As a like, just make it about I don't mean make it about you.
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  Like, okay.
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  Enough about you.
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  Let's talk about me later.
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  But what I, you know, what I really try to help leaders see.
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  What I try to help them see is that, you know, you are an instrument of catalyzing the ability
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  of other people to be and bring, you know, their their talents.
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  And when you flip it around and stops you know, the the language of, you know, what are you
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  doing?
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  Like, you know, when you have those update meetings with your leader, right?
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  Okay.
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  What's on your list?
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  What's on my list?
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  I never come out of I've never in my life come out of those meetings feeling that I've been
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  seen, that my work is building towards something.
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  They always felt very mechanical and transactional.
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  Versus having a leader saying, listen, you know, what do you need from me to be able to do
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  some really good work on behalf of the organization?
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  Right?
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  Wow.
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  That stops you in your tracks because, a, you've gotta figure out what it is you wanna
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  contribute and, b, you have to ask for the thing that's gonna make it even easier for you
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  to do that.
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  And sometimes it's these small things, Roxanne, that leaders are they're they're not aware of
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  the power just of their presence and of being able to create the capacity for other people to
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  relate to them human to human and to try.
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  I mean, we are in hierarchies, but to try and, you know, find a way to not let the hierarchy
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  determine the relationship between the leader and the employee.
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  So I almost like to de stratify it into a point.
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  Yes.
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  You you know, you're gonna have your your your your CEO and your different levels, but, you
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  know, some of the most, authentic leaders I've met made me forget what position they held in
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  the organization.
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  Yes.
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  That's a brilliant brilliant way of of summarizing it.
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  Yeah.
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  Right.
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  And then and then I look at them, and then I think you know, I, you know, when I worked, for
• 14:19
  Ward Chappell, for instance, as an example, and that was my beginning way back, that, you know,
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  those kind of leadership at that time, you know, was very, very, very hierarchical.
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  And there was this There was an this was a funny story, but it's a story I gotta share.
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  And I remember he was getting on the elevator, so he still was, you know, in the building.
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  And I, you know, I I happen to be getting off on the elevator as well.
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  It was people jumping off the elevator because you were afraid to be there with him.
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  And I was shocked.
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  And I said, he goes, how you doing?
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  And I said, oh, I'm pretty darn good.
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  How about you?
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  And he goes, I said, this elevator got cleared quickly.
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  You start to laugh.
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  And he goes, what's your name?
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  I said, it's Roxanne Derhodge goes, yeah.
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  I know you.
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  I said, I'm sure you do.
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  And I just chuckled and laughed and said, how are you doing?
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  And he goes, I'm pretty good.
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  Just rode the elevator.
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  But that was an example of, you know, and he he was a nice enough man, of course, you know, we
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  didn't see him very often and bored ran us, but how people was so fearful, because he was the
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  owner.
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  It's unfortunate that that's that's that was the reality, and I'm talking back, you know, in
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  the, you know, early 2000s kind of thing.
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  And the ones that have been able to get to the point where they can kinda sit and talk with
• 15:36
  you and have those conversations really creates that they create that vein that says, hey,
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  we're just people, even though they might be in a, you know, a lot higher of a level than you.
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  So tell me, When you work to with leaders today, and, I mean, we have so much we could
• 15:53
  talk about in where the state that we're in, in the time with COVID and, you know, black lives
• 15:59
  matter, all those things, what are some of the most pivotal and important things things for
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  leaders that are trying to grow right now.
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  What do they need to come in contact with to be able to start the process?
• 16:14
  Yeah.
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  My first line, it's a great question.
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  My first line is, you know, when I go back to a title of a book I read years ago is what got
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  you here won't get you there.
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  And what I mean by that, and I think this book, it might this might have been a book that I
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  just read the title, and I didn't need to read the book.
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  I got everything out of the title.
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  Similar to the book, feel the fear, and do it anyway.
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  Right.
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  Don't need to read the book.
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  But I I what I would say is where you learn the most in my opinion.
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  And and this comes from my personal life, my professional life, and in working with leaders,
• 16:47
  is to kind of go where the pain is.
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  Now I'm not talking about you know, deep psychoanalytic.
• 16:56
  Let's investigate your early life experience.
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  But what I mean by this is if you notice yourself feeling anxious and talking to a
• 17:04
  particular employee.
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  Or if you're if you're feeling a sense of anger at something, like, what is it that's happening
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  because, you know, very much, as you know, about authentic leadership is very much self
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  like, it's self awareness.
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  You can't be real unless you know who you are.
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  To be that real person, to be that authentic person.
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  And so what I I think has been really important is that, you know, for the who are willing to
• 17:29
  do it is to not jump into solutions mode.
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  Okay.
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  Everybody, we're all working remotely.
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  How's it gonna be?
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  And to actually slow down and go, wow.
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  Like, I'm feeling just as anxious as everybody else about is my family gonna be sick?
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  Are our jobs safe?
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  Like, to kind of really go into the feeling and be present with the feeling.
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  Now, you decide what you share from there.
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  But if you're coming from a bit lower, literally physically in the body, then, you
• 17:57
  know, your prefrontal cortex it actually enables you to be, I think, a little a little
• 18:03
  freer, to shape things as as they come up as opposed to coming in with a big plan.
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  And my personal opinion is 3 to 5 year strategic plans.
• 18:15
  We're not that they're not helping.
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  They're getting in the way.
• 18:17
  I don't know how many times, and maybe this your your listeners have this experience where
• 18:21
  there's this big plan that enrolls.
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  And within 6 months, something's happened and you have to scrap the plan.
• 18:27
  So I think with what we're experiencing right now, leaders really grounding themselves in
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  what they're feeling and speaking from that place as opposed to I gotta control it.
• 18:38
  I think that that's kind of I would say one of the first things that I would, that I would
• 18:43
  work with work on with a leader.
• 18:45
  And I think that would be a skill.
• 18:47
  That would be scary for some people because they think if they've never done any kind of
• 18:53
  awareness growth through coaching or anything like that, where they've already sat with, you
• 19:00
  know, why is it that this particular personality seems to aggravate me that much.
• 19:07
  Or, you know, if you've never really done any kind of reflective kind of work, I often say
• 19:13
  you have to put a gap in between you and the actual behavior and look at and say, why am I
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  having this huge visceral reaction to this this team or or this particular part of the business
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  because I'm not aware of what they're triggering within me.
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  And if I'm not aware, you know, I put meaning to it without, the ability to say, okay.
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  Well, they're triggering that in me.
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  Okay, what is it that I need to kind of do to stay present to look at things for what they
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  really are at that time?
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  And that's quite the skill.
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  Right?
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  To be able to do that if you've never done any kind of, you know, coaching or building or
• 19:49
  introspection.
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  And I think, you know, oftentimes we think of introspection.
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  We think of that in our personal lives.
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  We don't per say as much.
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  Think about it in our professional lives.
• 19:59
  I agree.
• 20:00
  And, again, this idea that who we are work is gonna be this vastly different person than who
• 20:04
  we are in our personal lives.
• 20:07
  To me, what what I find very powerful is when leaders understand that becoming a better
• 20:13
  leader is exactly the same journey as becoming a better person.
• 20:17
  To become self actualized is a lifelong knee.
• 20:21
  And the more you understand I mean, listen, we're all born with a brain that we didn't
• 20:26
  pick.
• 20:27
  Right?
• 20:27
  We have instinctive responses.
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  We have emotional responses.
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  We have thought patterns.
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  You know, some of this is just baked into us.
• 20:37
  But we also have an ability to communicate, to listen, to learn.
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  And so we're able to make a choice says, and the more we know about who we are and how we
• 20:48
  show up and what activates our, you know, whether it's our amygdala, you know, I find
• 20:52
  injustice when I hear something about injustice.
• 20:54
  I just, you know, I could literally feel my body heat up, and I'm I'm coming from my
• 20:58
  emotional brain.
• 21:00
  But then it's lighting up like a Christmas tree.
• 21:02
  It's like, it's
• 21:03
  like, it's like all the Christmas trees.
• 21:06
  But knowing that my, like, I have a thinking brain that can then start sorting and choice
• 21:11
  making.
• 21:11
  Right?
• 21:12
  So what are the words that are gonna come out of my mouth?
• 21:14
  Am I gonna have, you know, like a mini tantrum.
• 21:19
  Am I going to, you know, hold myself back and say, you know, what works what works best when
• 21:24
  I'm activated?
• 21:25
  Is to ask questions because I know if I'm coming strongly and passionately, I might
• 21:31
  actually be silencing people.
• 21:32
  And that's the thing I think that is so important about really good leadership
• 21:37
  development is you're not looking at leaders as empty vessels that you fill with skills.
• 21:44
  You know, I you you and I can easily teach anyone to have a very good performance
• 21:49
  conversation.
• 21:50
  The skill set.
• 21:50
  Absolutely.
• 21:51
  Absolutely.
• 21:52
  The harder thing is if you think that because you're the leader that you have the final say,
• 21:58
  It doesn't matter how much I teach you to have a good conversation.
• 22:02
  You're still bringing a mindset of power over.
• 22:05
  Right?
• 22:06
  So the real work of leadership development is to notice the way you show up and as much as
• 22:11
  possible see your role as catalyzing what is already good in other people.
• 22:17
  You've already we know you're you you got your chops.
• 22:20
  You got this position, you know, There's something about leadership that I think is
• 22:25
  misunderstood that it's not about I'm finally in control and I can make things happen.
• 22:31
  Really true leadership is I have no control, but I'm gonna create a container in which
• 22:38
  creativity, innovation, difficult conversations, all of that can happen in order
• 22:44
  to have the impact that our organization is hoping to have in the world.
• 22:50
  And I I mean, well well said because, you know, you'd be all in industries.
• 22:55
  They talk about innovation and creativity.
• 22:58
  I was actually talking I had dinner with, uh-uh, a dear friend of mine, and he was a
• 23:04
  senior executive.
• 23:05
  You know, within 3 years, you could ab I could absolutely see the change in him as a person.
• 23:12
  And the environment he left out, you know, is quite notable, you know, in banking.
• 23:17
  My question to him last night, and I wanna share it with you because This is just fit her
• 23:21
  so well.
• 23:22
  And, you know, I said to him, do you think authenticity is possible in senior leadership?
• 23:28
  And he said Roxanne, I am starting to second guess that that's a possibility because he said
• 23:35
  what he sees is that the higher people gets particular, let's use banking as an example.
• 23:43
  There are such sometimes unrealistic expectations of growth that what was happening
• 23:48
  in his particular environment is that people were dropping like weeds with mental health
• 23:53
  concerns massive, short term disability claims and people that are actually having nervous
• 24:00
  breakdowns at that level with a CEO that was dis so disconnected that could only see the
• 24:08
  things like the tactical and the growth and those and and there was literally, I said,
• 24:12
  there's people losing limbs around him.
• 24:14
  I was joking around with my friend, and he was not aware.
• 24:18
  So that's my concern when I hear that we have such opportunity.
• 24:22
  And my hope is that based on what the world has gone through, and all the things that we have,
• 24:28
  you know, had to come to grips within the last couple of months that industries like that
• 24:33
  would start to be aware that if you're not able to hold on to to your talent in in this way,
• 24:41
  and you're impacting people's mental health, where where's creativity and innovation gonna
• 24:46
  go?
• 24:47
  Go?
• 24:48
  Great question.
• 24:49
  And, you know, what what I and I hesitate to say the word love, but I will use it.
• 24:55
  What I love about the moment of time that we're in So starting with COVID, it became pretty
• 25:02
  clear, for example, that, no, your job can't be done from home.
• 25:05
  Well, yes, it can.
• 25:06
  Because when push comes to shove, or, you know, virus comes to illness, we we actually can get
• 25:14
  a lot of work done.
• 25:15
  Now part of that and the people I'm speaking with, they feel that they're working harder
• 25:18
  than ever because, again, back to this performative nature of work, I always have to
• 25:23
  be, like, Of course, I'm not gonna be anywhere else.
• 25:26
  I'm at home.
• 25:26
  So, you know, I know leaders who are more of the micromanaging type, they're scheduling
• 25:32
  calls first thing in the morning because they wanna see their employees are up and at work,
• 25:36
  which is hard to understand.
• 25:39
  Right?
• 25:39
  Like, people have very complex lives that they're managing under very complex situations,
• 25:45
  but I think there's a doorway and people are now looking into that doorway and going, wow.
• 25:49
  Like, do I wanna work for an organization that, you know, has all these beautiful values on the
• 25:55
  wall but when it comes down to it, I don't feel trusted.
• 25:58
  I'm not seeing behaviors of trust.
• 26:00
  And then when you look at what's happening around you know, the very important work around
• 26:04
  racial injustice right now, you know, organizations, many of them, they're putting
• 26:09
  out statements you know, we believe in racial equality.
• 26:12
  We believe in having a diverse and inclusive workforce.
• 26:14
  And then the workers are coming forward and saying, oh, you're saying that now.
• 26:19
  I have seen zero evidence over the time I've worked here.
• 26:22
  And so people I think are are coming very aware and attuned.
• 26:26
  And I think consumers and stakeholders that what has often been said is actually not the
• 26:32
  truth.
• 26:32
  And I'm, you know, there's always a risk of things sliding back, but I think there's
• 26:36
  momentum both around, you know, how we treat people with respect in the workplace, but even
• 26:41
  the broader and more important to issue of how we treat people, is, I I I, I, you know, some
• 26:50
  of my my friends of color, I'm I'm white, but my friends of color, my black friends, my
• 26:55
  indigenous friends say, yeah, it's gonna fade back out.
• 26:57
  Like, we hope it'll stick.
• 26:59
  But we don't know if it will.
• 27:00
  And I but I'm hopeful.
• 27:02
  I think there's many things that are happening right now that we can't go back because people
• 27:06
  and leaders have been revealed for their biases, for their way of, you know, treating
• 27:12
  employees for their way of of behaving that is not about the human creative spirit, but that's
• 27:17
  about shutting people down, and I'm a big, big advocate that if you don't like who you're
• 27:23
  working for, vote with your feet, there are many organizations that are starve for the kind
• 27:29
  of talent that many of us have and bring along to give, to our organizations, and we don't
• 27:35
  need to really put up with leaders who are either unable to support us or who are, you
• 27:41
  know, latent racist or bigots.
• 27:43
  Yeah.
• 27:43
  Yeah.
• 27:44
  And I think The time that we're in, it's like a it's like a exponential effect.
• 27:49
  We went into COVID, and then we had this, you know, black lives matter come all at us.
• 27:54
  So truly, I believe that leadership, there's gonna there's a elevated expectation now of,
• 28:00
  you know, all of us that, you know, have done different roles and now that recognized, wow, I
• 28:05
  I have the capacity to do this from home.
• 28:09
  What am what am I bringing?
• 28:10
  What what skills do I have?
• 28:12
  I think it's it's gonna people's confidence in their capacities have increased.
• 28:17
  So leaders that want to attract and retain this top talent, they're gonna have to bring their
• 28:22
  game, and it's gonna have to start with them.
• 28:26
  Truly because,
• 28:27
  you know totally agree Roxanne.
• 28:28
  Yeah.
• 28:29
  But that awareness piece, I think, you know, sometimes, like, I'll have conversations.
• 28:35
  Like, I, you know, I'm Brown for people that are listening or have never seen me.
• 28:40
  And I've had friends with friends that I love to pieces, Lisa, that are white, that they
• 28:47
  don't realize, you know, they've said to me I said to someone, ask me what it is to be brown.
• 28:52
  And someone said, well, I've never thought of you as being brown.
• 28:55
  I said, well, I am brown.
• 28:57
  And they we start to everybody start to giggle, but these are girlfriends.
• 29:00
  I've had for 30 years.
• 29:01
  Right?
• 29:02
  And I said, ask me what it was like when I moved to the little town that I live like now
• 29:07
  in now 33 years ago.
• 29:10
  Right?
• 29:11
  And then my friend said, so, well, what was it like?
• 29:15
  Because nobody had really thought about it because I never it's the issue of color has
• 29:19
  never come up.
• 29:21
  I said, but I'm also privileged.
• 29:23
  I grew up in an affluent family, foreign students, you know, I came and went to U of tea
• 29:29
  and cut you know what I mean?
• 29:30
  So there's a certain amount of I'm gonna put, inoculation with with the way I entered
• 29:36
  society.
• 29:37
  I said, but put me down the street, slinging beers, you know, in the little tavern and see
• 29:43
  how that's the re and then that that sparked things.
• 29:46
  People said, well, what do you mean?
• 29:48
  Would would I be treated differently?
• 29:50
  He said, absolutely, I would be.
• 29:52
  So it's it.
• 29:52
  And, you know, we started, and then people were like, one friend one friend of mine, she's
• 29:56
  she's funny.
• 29:57
  She's the funny one.
• 29:58
  She goes, oh, my head hurts.
• 29:59
  I said, you know what?
• 30:00
  If your head hurts, we're talking about the white things.
• 30:03
  Yeah.
• 30:03
  Because we had never talked about it as girlfriends.
• 30:07
  And, you know, And I think these are the conversations that need to happen in our living
• 30:12
  rooms with our friendships around the campfires when we go up north all those things because I
• 30:18
  think that discomfort will start to make people realize.
• 30:22
  Wow.
• 30:23
  I should not not talk about it even though, like you said, we have to go to the deepest
• 30:27
  pain point in order to create change.
• 30:30
  Right?
• 30:30
  And my friends will say my one one of the friends, her husband owns a law firm, And she
• 30:36
  went back to the law firm, and she said to her her husband, we need to ask everybody if we
• 30:41
  don't know about their reality, but in very subtle ways.
• 30:47
  Tell me about, you know, what it's like for Ramadan, because I don't know.
• 30:52
  You know, what what's that like?
• 30:54
  What do you do?
• 30:55
  Like, what how is that time different?
• 30:57
  All those things.
• 30:57
  So even though that was uncomfortable conversation, you know, that nobody wanted to
• 31:01
  have, because we hadn't really thought about it before truly.
• 31:05
  We joke around, you know, but nothing big.
• 31:07
  It forced us, you know, to really get real.
• 31:10
  And I said, and I said to my one friend, I'm so impressed that we could actually sit through
• 31:15
  this because it shows me that, unfortunately, something that cater horrific caused us to have
• 31:24
  these conversations, but we're gonna make a difference, in our little pods here and little,
• 31:29
  you know, kind of Suburbia.
• 31:31
  And so, you know, to your point, we are in such, we're gonna I mean, this time of history
• 31:38
  is gonna be looked back at and can be written on or or or ancestors will look at it and say,
• 31:44
  wow, you know, my great grandma or whatever lived in that time.
• 31:47
  So I think we have duty to really make a difference with what we can do around us in our
• 31:54
  little concentric circles.
• 31:56
  Yes.
• 31:56
  And just to kind of pull the 2 together, There are many white leaders who are terrified of
• 32:04
  stepping into even simple conversations.
• 32:08
  Around difference.
• 32:09
  And, you know, just to to give a little bit of perspective, you know, we live in Canada.
• 32:16
  Our holidays are typically around Christian, right?
• 32:19
  Easter and Christmas.
• 32:24
  You know, Thanksgiving being the harvest that goes with the western calendar.
• 32:29
  You know, sipco day.
• 32:30
  There's some white guide what he did, but he did something in Ontario.
• 32:35
  May long weekend, the queen.
• 32:37
  Right?
• 32:37
  We don't question that we, you know, our entire structure and thinking around long weekends is
• 32:43
  actually deeply embedded in white Western culture.
• 32:47
  And people of color don't always feel comfortable saying, hey, I'd like to have some
• 32:51
  time off at yom kippur or, you know, with Eve, it's falling on a, you know, week week day.
• 32:58
  Like, we we, like, we expect people to ask for these things, but we don't realize the
• 33:02
  privilege we have.
• 33:02
  We never have to ask for the time off as you know, white stuff.
• 33:06
  Yeah.
• 33:06
  Can I have Thanksgiving off or, you know, labor, you know, labor day?
• 33:10
  We don't even think about that.
• 33:11
  We just Right.
• 33:12
  Or there's just so many.
• 33:13
  Right?
• 33:14
  I mean, there's and many, many cultures.
• 33:16
  And, you know, and leaders often just a little thing like that, like, just understanding gives
• 33:23
  them a factive that, yeah, and the whole their whole people's whole lives are affected by
• 33:29
  little things like this.
• 33:31
  And helping leaders have conversations that are, you know, what people might deem as
• 33:35
  difficult or uncomfortable often starts with what I said earlier.
• 33:39
  What am I feeling?
• 33:40
  Right?
• 33:40
  So if you're feeling discomfort or fear, that's where you start the conversation.
• 33:44
  You say, I really wanna talk about this and learn, but I'm just feeling like, my stomach is
• 33:50
  in knots.
• 33:51
  I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing.
• 33:53
  I'm afraid of being called out for behavior.
• 33:56
  Like, that is a doorway into a old conversation as opposed to, okay, everybody.
• 34:01
  We're sending everyone off for diversity and inclusion training or unconscious bias
• 34:05
  training.
• 34:06
  I have been in those trainings, Roxanne, many times over my, career as a leader, right, a
• 34:11
  leadership cohort, and I can tell you I learned some information, but nothing touched my heart.
• 34:18
  And what I think is happening now is people are having visceral reactions to what we're and
• 34:24
  feeling, and people are stepping forward and telling their stories.
• 34:28
  And that is touching us and touching leaders in a way that we I think we have a responsibility
• 34:33
  to create the space for those stories.
• 34:35
  I I think it's truly an opening.
• 34:38
  As much as we've it's been such, you know, it's made us rethink so many things in life.
• 34:44
  We're at an opening to make massive change, just in all of our lives, but also in
• 34:50
  organizations that we'd work with, right, to really, you know, and I've even think of myself
• 34:54
  when I worked in corporate, a lot of my colleagues were or Jewish, and I didn't know
• 34:58
  anything.
• 34:58
  I I didn't ask because I didn't know, and I didn't know, you know, what they were doing.
• 35:04
  So even for me, I think I was remiss in not asking the questions.
• 35:08
  My bosses were Jewish, and I knew they were taking different time off, but I didn't say, so
• 35:13
  tell me a little bit more.
• 35:14
  Right?
• 35:15
  I don't know much about it.
• 35:16
  So I think for me, even it shows me that I need to understand when I don't get it, you know,
• 35:21
  like, tell me about your background.
• 35:23
  Whatever that background is because that really gets me to a level where I understand people
• 35:28
  even that much more because the assumption is you look a certain way Lisa or I look a certain
• 35:33
  way that I somehow know about your background, but that says nothing about you, you know,
• 35:38
  unless I start to have those conversations.
• 35:41
  So I think the the the level of conversation has to be shifted, but it has to be the
• 35:45
  permission, which unfortunately, this diverse This adverse situation has given us permission,
• 35:52
  but that's what's gonna create systemic change.
• 35:54
  Exactly.
• 35:55
  And, listen, conversation like, a tough conversation is nothing compared to seeing
• 36:01
  people in your community, your siblings, your parents, your friends, your children, be
• 36:07
  victims of police violence, discrimination, not getting promotions, like, you know, me feeling
• 36:14
  uncomfortable having a conversation really it, you know, is hardly a drop in the bucket of the
• 36:21
  way more important, a full bucket of really important things that we need to get to.
• 36:25
  And, you know, I believe that lead like, if you're gonna step into a role as a leader,
• 36:30
  lead.
• 36:31
  Don't hide in your office.
• 36:33
  Don't, you know, like, the these are these are in these are in these are people's lives, you
• 36:38
  know, is what I say.
• 36:39
  Like, This is all we have.
• 36:41
  All each of us have is a life.
• 36:43
  And leaders, I believe, have a responsibility to create opportunities in the same way that
• 36:49
  parents with their children, you create opportunities for growth, for learning, for
• 36:54
  emotional expression, And I don't I I think, you know, workplaces the good workplaces with
• 37:01
  powerful leaders, they're they use the word before catalyst, but stewards they're there to
• 37:06
  create an environment in which the human spirit through work contribution can bring something
• 37:13
  And, you know, a lot of what happens in workplaces, we focus on results, but I think
• 37:17
  just as important is what we create in terms of relationships and connection.
• 37:21
  That to me you know, find me put numbers on a spreadsheet.
• 37:25
  This is how much we sell and this and that.
• 37:27
  And, but there is something that is absolutely priceless that cannot be replicated on a
• 37:35
  spreadsheet, which is how people come together to create unbelievably important value just in
• 37:41
  the connection and the ability to work together, which I to me is what why I'm
• 37:46
  passionate about leadership is that leaders have, again, there there's such an incredible
• 37:54
  opportunity to bring what is
• 38:03
  to have a good leader.
• 38:04
  Absolutely.
• 38:05
  Absolutely.
• 38:06
  And I I think in my also my career, I've I've been privileged to to work with some phenomenal
• 38:11
  leaders.
• 38:12
  And I've also seen leaders that I think, oh my, how did I get myself into this one?
• 38:17
  And how do I get out of it?
• 38:19
  And you you kinda try
• 38:20
  your best.
• 38:20
  Yeah.
• 38:21
  Right?
• 38:21
  And then you, you know, you you you do your best that you can to get through it.
• 38:26
  Now, Lisa, you are, You work with culture, so I wanted to really kinda wrap it into culture and
• 38:34
  and what kind of things.
• 38:35
  We know leaders have to be aware they have to have difficult conversations.
• 38:39
  But in reference to culture and, let's let's face it.
• 38:42
  We'll go back into, you know, phase 3 and we're gonna be opening up and We're gonna go back to
• 38:46
  our lives, you know, in whatever sense of the word, but culture is gonna be shifted.
• 38:51
  So, again, if I'm the employee or I'm the leader and I'm going back in what what should
• 38:57
  my expectations be as an employee?
• 38:59
  And what what should I kind of be looking for in leadership?
• 39:04
  In this new in this new stage?
• 39:07
  I saw some graffiti the other day, which was in quotes, you know, I can't wait to get back to
• 39:14
  normal and then below it, somebody had written, normal is what got us into this And, you know,
• 39:23
  whether it's environmentally relation to the virus or, you know, to to think about this in
• 39:29
  the context of the workplace.
• 39:32
  We have toxic and unhealthy workplaces because that's what we think is normal.
• 39:37
  And I would hope people who have terrible food allergies, go on Asian diet.
• 39:42
  So you add a little bit of milk or you add, right, other things into the mix, and you
• 39:49
  figure out what works and what's healthy.
• 39:51
  And so I would like to think of organizations if they're looking at their culture, It's like,
• 39:55
  okay, we've pushed everything out into remote working.
• 39:58
  As we come back, what are the things we're gonna test 1 by 1?
• 40:02
  To see if they're part of who we wanna be going forward.
• 40:06
  And, you know, basically, it's a fancy way of saying a stop, start continue exercise for
• 40:11
  those of us who, you know, who do organizational development and facilitation.
• 40:15
  What are the things that we haven't been doing that we've learned we need to do?
• 40:19
  Because we're all healthier and happier.
• 40:22
  Maybe we have more remote working options.
• 40:25
  What are the things that we've done that are really, really well?
• 40:28
  And let's keep doing those.
• 40:30
  So what we learned is just so useless that we're just gonna stop.
• 40:35
  We're not we're not in the culture going forward.
• 40:38
  We're not bringing them back.
• 40:39
  And, you know, just some thoughtful conversations around that.
• 40:42
  I think would make a huge difference to people.
• 40:45
  I mean, you know, even just the idea of, like, most of us sit at computers all day long the
• 40:50
  amount of money people spend on clothing for the workplace.
• 40:54
  I'm just as productive in a pair of jeans as I am in, you know, something that fits a little
• 40:59
  too tightly because, of course, you know, many of us have gained weight over this COVID.
• 41:04
  I'm just as productive in yoga pants and maybe even more.
• 41:07
  You know, can we drop this idea that there's something that's about professional attire?
• 41:11
  If none of us are actually, you know, needing to be those things.
• 41:16
  Now I'm not saying, you know, stop brushing your teeth and, you know, there's some certain
• 41:20
  things that, you know, when the continue list, we wanna continue, but what are the things and
• 41:24
  maybe the, you know, like, that frees off people.
• 41:27
  Like, let's let's go to the core of what it means to be human as opposed to these
• 41:31
  strictures that we call culture.
• 41:33
  That's one thing.
• 41:34
  And I'll quickly say something else, and I touched on it earlier.
• 41:38
  I can't tell you how many organizations I've walked in the door, and they've got their
• 41:41
  values painted on the wall or in a big frame.
• 41:44
  And, you know, typically they're around excellence, integrity, inclusion,
• 41:50
  collaboration.
• 41:51
  And all I need to do is sit in a few meetings to see how true people are to those values.
• 41:56
  I would like to see organizations look at who they are and did in fact, they live up to who
• 42:02
  they said they were, right, and for employees to actually call it out.
• 42:06
  And to say, you know, we've always said that we're quite collaborative, but actually during
• 42:10
  COVID, a bunch of decisions were made and nobody was consulted.
• 42:14
  Can we actually claim that as one of our values?
• 42:17
  And that those are, again, those are difficult, courageous conversations to have with leaders.
• 42:22
  Because you can get named a troublemaker pretty quickly if you question organizational values
• 42:28
  and behaviors, which is probably another reason why I work from my health because I've been
• 42:33
  someone who's raised those questions.
• 42:35
  But I think going back to those values and those missions and those visions that people
• 42:39
  create, I think that's a good space for companies to start to go back to.
• 42:43
  Right?
• 42:43
  Like I agree.
• 42:44
  Where are we?
• 42:45
  Who who are we?
• 42:47
  If we're not who we wanna be, how can we slowly?
• 42:50
  You're not gonna change everything tomorrow, but in pivoting back, you know, so what can we
• 42:56
  take with us or what we learned about ourselves individually, collectively, and as an
• 43:01
  organization.
• 43:01
  And what has a leader learned and then what has everybody through the different ranks learned.
• 43:07
  And if they can get to that point where they like you're right, have this would be very
• 43:11
  strategic, but it'll also be courageous because people are gonna hear things that they're not
• 43:16
  gonna wanna hear that are real.
• 43:17
  That probably has lived, and been breathing in the organization for very long.
• 43:22
  But if they can get to that point and make some of those, huge changes, you know, you probably
• 43:29
  retain 95% of the people, that you wanna retain and and lose maybe the 5% that it doesn't fit
• 43:37
  versus it being the other way.
• 43:38
  Is we're probably gonna see a lot of shifting with a lot of talent as we go, I would think.
• 43:43
  I don't know if you agree with that or not.
• 43:44
  I totally agree.
• 43:45
  And I think the other thing is now that we know that remote remote work can be very effective.
• 43:49
  Your talent pool is so much larger now.
• 43:51
  You don't have to hire people in your geographic region.
• 43:54
  Like, you can reach into the, you know, the entire planet, and find really talented people
• 44:03
  to work with.
• 44:03
  So I think there's there can be a real advantage to organizations And the other thing
• 44:08
  is is, you know, if leaders have been less than authentic and less than transformational,
• 44:15
  there's a beautiful opportunity again to go back to their teams and their organizations and
• 44:20
  say, you know, we, for instance, we have this value on all of inclusion.
• 44:24
  And because of what's happened in the world, I've come to terms with the fact that I haven't
• 44:29
  lived that value as fully as I could.
• 44:32
  So again, to reveal with some courage, a bit of vulnerability, it is immensely trust building
• 44:39
  to be able to show people that you've had a shift in perspective because people are
• 44:45
  interested in the real leader.
• 44:48
  They're not interested in the person who is, saying one thing and behaving in another way.
• 44:55
  I mean, and ultimately, that's your power as a leader, the more you can align what you say and
• 44:59
  how you behave and your deep belief system with the way you show up in the workplace, in the
• 45:04
  way you would show up with your community or for your family, that is what engages people.
• 45:09
  Right?
• 45:09
  I mean, we've heard the line people, you know, hired into organizations, but they leave
• 45:14
  because of the bad bosses.
• 45:16
  And you can you can go from being a bad boss to a good boss by showing a bit of vulnerability
• 45:20
  and authenticity and again, it's a daily practice.
• 45:23
  Self actualization is not a pill you swallow or a mountain you sit on for one day.
• 45:28
  It is a day to day.
• 45:29
  Who do I wanna be?
• 45:31
  And how do I wanna show up?
• 45:34
  Well, Lisa, you and I could probably go on and on and on because we have such the same kind of
• 45:39
  beliefs around leadership.
• 45:41
  And, thank you so much for your time.
• 45:45
  Is there anything you wanna say before I let you go?
• 45:48
  Just just to you, Ryan, San, you know, you have made a decision to be someone.
• 45:55
  I don't know if you know the term.
• 45:57
  Right?
• 45:57
  There are people who will delay their entry into enlightenment to help other people get
• 46:02
  there ahead of them.
• 46:03
  And I think the work that you do is really you're creating a pathway for people to enter
• 46:10
  into states of reflection that are not naturally easy for many people but the way in
• 46:16
  which you do it makes it feel possible and a little less scary.
• 46:20
  So I just wanna thank you for, you know, this conversation, but beyond that, the way that
• 46:25
  you're devoting your professional life to making some pretty significant change in
• 46:30
  organizations.
• 46:31
  So thank you.
• 46:32
  Thanks you so much for those kind words.
• 46:35
  So for anyone listening and especially if you're a leader, you know, you have such an
• 46:41
  opportunity regardless of what your leadership style has been in the past to create change.
• 46:47
  So if you're already thinking about it, that's fantastic.
• 46:50
  But if you're not, start to think about what can I what changes can I use?
• 46:54
  You said stop.
• 46:56
  Continue.
• 46:57
  Start and continue.
• 46:59
  In your leadership, so to to create the changes that you need to make.
• 47:03
  So for everyone listening, if you're wanting to know more about authentic leadership, you can
• 47:08
  reach me at Roxanne.
• 47:11
  And, again, Lisa, thanks so much for your time, and we'll talk to you soon.
• 47:16
  Great.
• 47:16
  Thank you, Roxanne.
• 47:18
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 47:23
  healthy change.
• 47:24
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 47:31
  rocksandurhaj.com/blueprint.
• 47:34
  We'll see you next time on authentic living with Roxanne.