Latest / Divorce Dialogues / Stop Fighting Over the Schedule, Fix This Instead | Marsha Kline Pruett

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Stop Fighting Over the Schedule, Fix This Instead | Marsha Kline Pruett · Divorce Dialogues

• Marsha Kline Pruett (00:00): The biggest things are how the parents get along and the child's relationship with each parent. Those are the two most important things. It's not the amount of time. In fact, a lot of research shows that there's no relationship between 40 / 60 or fifty fifty or all the things parents spend way too much money fighting about. That just doesn't compute for a child. Katherine Miller (00:26): Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I'm Katherine Miller. This is where we have honest, thoughtful conversations about divorce, the emotional, financial, legal, and family questions no one prepares you for. From deciding whether to separate, to navigating the process with dignity, to rebuilding what comes next, Divorce Dialogues is here to help you find clarity, perspective, and a better way forward. Almost every parent that I work with who's going through a divorce will tell me pretty much the same thing. They all want to do what's best for their children. The hard part is figuring out what "best" actually means because parents often disagree. When parents are making decisions about custody and parenting time, it can be very easy to focus on the schedule itself. How many nights will the children spend with each parent? Is the time equal? Or is one parent getting more time than the other? And it's not that these things don't matter, but children don't experience a parenting plan as a mathematical equation, and they think of it as actually their time, not their parents' time. (01:36): And they experience their relationships with each parent separately. They experience the transitions between home. They experience the conflict or lack of conflict around them. And what works absolutely beautifully for one child or one family may not work at all for another. Divorce also makes this harder because parents are trying to make decisions about their children while dealing with their own fear, their own grief, their own anger, and their own uncertainty. And sometimes what feels right or protective to a parent may not be the same thing as what a particular child actually needs. So rather than asking what's the best custody arrangement, maybe the more useful question is what does this child in this family need in order to thrive? So I'm super excited to welcome today Dr. Marsha Kline Pruett. She's a leading researcher and expert on children parenting and family transitions. Marsha has spent decades studying what helps children and families adjust after separation and divorce, including the effects of parenting arrangements, parent-child relationships, and interparental conflict. (02:41): So today we're looking at what the research actually tells us about children and divorce, what it doesn't tell us, and how parents can use that knowledge to make thoughtful decisions for their family. Dr. Marsha Kline Pruett, thank you so much for being my guest on Divorce Dialogues. Marsha Kline Pruett (02:57): Thank you, Katherine. I'm happy to be here. Katherine Miller (02:59): So when parents ask you, and I'm sure this happens all the time, what's the best custody arrangement for my child or my children? How do you answer that quite difficult question? Marsha Kline Pruett (03:08): With a simple word that always drives people crazy, but it's the truest. The answer is it depends and it depends on a number of things. It depends on the age and the developmental place of your child. It depends on your child's temperament. It depends on your child's relationship with each parent, and it depends on the parent's relationship with each other. But research also shows that simple things like how close you live together makes a difference and whether or not it interferes with things a child really wants to do makes a difference because parents often feel the loss of having their children around all the time and they want to fill it in. But children also want to fill it in, but they want to fill it in with their friends and their school and their needs. And in fact, that helps deflect what they're sad about or angry about in their families. (04:05): So parents are zooming in and kids often are backpedaling, zooming in and zooming out. They have different ideas on what might work. Katherine Miller (04:16): So what does the research actually say about what matters most around how children adjust after divorce? Marsha Kline Pruett (04:23): What matters the most is kind of old and not surprising. The biggest things are how the parents get along and the child's relationship with each parent. Those are the two most important things, that it's not the amount of time. In fact, a lot of research shows that there's no relationship between 40 / 60 or fifty fifty or all the things parents spend way too much money fighting about. That just doesn't compute for a child. One of the things that parents need to know and to think about is if they live together, no child greets a parent when they come in the door and says, "Mommy, I love you a little less because you worked longer hours today. I love you more than dad because he went on a trip." Time is not what children count. And there's also not such a thing as quality time. (05:21): That was made up by adults, but quality time doesn't mean, "Well, as long as I'm with my child from six to eight tonight and we really talk over dinner, we're having great time together." Quality time in the child's world is, "Oh, I feel like talking right now when I'm supposed to be getting dropped off to school. Now's the time that I'm going to tell you what's really going on or I'm supposed to be going to bed. I can stall by telling you interesting things about my life that I know will seduce you into letting me stay up later." So when kids feel like talking, when they need a parent there, that's quality time, not scheduled by a parent according to adult life. Katherine Miller (06:04): So I think what you're saying, Marsha, is that there is such a thing as quality time, but it happens organically. You can't say it's going to be Tuesday at 7:30. It comes up when a child is ready to have quality time, to share something important to them or to include a parent in their lives in a way and that you can't plan for that. Marsha Kline Pruett (06:26): Exactly. When the child walks in the door after school and they're either excited to tell you about something wonderful that happened or they're in tears about something that happened, that's quality time at that moment when you're there to respond, you can't schedule quality time. So that's an important piece. But we know from the literature that if parents work together to cooperate, depending on the age of the child, they don't have to agree on everything. It's better if they agree when kids are younger and older, but by that I mean toddlers and teenagers often need sort of the strongest we stand together. Together we might have a little chance of standing up to the power of your budding personality child. It's critical that parents don't put their kid in the middle of the conflict, don't have kids feel like they have to take sides, don't feel like they have to be angry at one parent because the other parent will be happy with them. (07:28): As long as those things can be managed, that's the first and most important thing. Katherine Miller (07:33): That's a big thing. Marsha Kline Pruett (07:34): That's a big thing. That's first and foremost. If you don't have that, all the other stuff may not matter. So we also know that when parents share parenting time, they tend to choose it more and do it better when they have more money and when they're more educated than when they don't have any control over their lives. So the idea that every child should have shared parents has actually. Well, I won't say it's been debunked. Parents need to share parenting, but they don't need to set something up that's exactly equal or even close to equal. What they need to do is figure out, are transitions hard for my child? If my child is rigid and transitions undo them, if every time we have a transition, my ex and I fight about something, transitions are not good things. If there are ups and backs that are smooth and easy and oh my gosh, I forgot my soccer uniform and now I'm at the other parents, I call, the other parent says, okay, I'll bring it over and drop it off at the field. (08:45): I'll meet you there or if I can't, I'll send someone to do it. Then it's smooth. Then it doesn't have to hurt the child. Kids are okay if parents move on with their lives, what they're not okay with is if parents do it in a way that reminds them every day of what they've lost. Katherine Miller (09:06): I have so much to ask you about. So one of the things is about equal time, and I'm tender to put that in air quotes, equal time because what time is that? Because time when the kids are sleeping is not the same as time when they're available to do stuff. Homework time is not the same as going to the movies time. And my experience over the years, and tell me what you think about this, Marsha, is that the sense of entitlement in a parent and loss in a parent really sometimes blocks their ability to accept or really perceive what is best for the kid or the children. And so the sense that I didn't want the divorce, so why should I not be with my children all the time? I am an equal parent to you and okay, maybe you have been the primary caregiver up until now, but now I want fifty fifty time because I'm no less of a parent than you. (10:03): Well, that's a big one. I think it can be really hard and I have a lot of compassion for that, that sense of loss or that sense of wanting so badly to have that really close relationship with our children. And at the same time, I hear what you say, that that focus kind of leaves a kid out of the equation. Marsha Kline Pruett (10:25): Right. I mean, one of the things that happens is parents often divorce without really being able to understand what it's going to feel like to miss half of their kids' activities, half of their kids' lives. Sometimes there's a great situation, then everybody's involved, but that's not the norm. Part of what we have to accept is that you have to reframe our expectations of a family and you can be just as loving and just as close with your child, but you won't have all the time that you want with them. Sometimes parents fight so hard over particular holidays because they have a way of doing a holiday. Well, they need to develop some new routines and some new traditions. And in fact, we know the kids do better when there are boundaries between their old and their new families, that the new routines are our new family, whoever that is. (11:26): It might just be me and my brother and my mom. It might be me, my brother, my mom, and a new boyfriend of mom. Whatever it is, it might be a new stepsister. Having that new family create new things that are ours is important, just like you wouldn't use all the same routines that you had with a five-year-old as you would with a 10-year-old. You need to create new things together that fit being a 10-year-old. Moving on means letting go of this wish for this intact family and instead creating two new intact families. And they're intact no matter who's in them, if the relationships are strong. One of the things that is a misnomer is there is no research that says fifty fifty is better for kids. That is a policy stance. That is not research. The research in fact says we have no idea where the breaking point is, like 60 / 40, 70 / 30 of what's good or what's not good for kids because it depends on a lot of different things and we could never cover all those variables. (12:40): In fact, there are some unintended consequences. Research on very big samples has shown, and longitudinal that is across many years, that when kids have fifty fifty, they often do more poorly in school, have less achievement, and maybe make less money when they get out, and that young kids actually have more health problems. Why is that? Because most of the parents who create fifty fifty, it means neither one of us is going to stay home or be around as flexibly with you as we would like to. And so often children get taken care of more hours by neither parent. And what you see also is that mothers who do much of the work for making appointments and doing what we call the non-direct work, the indirect work of child-rearing, you don't get thanked for being the one to make sure the dental appointment is made on time and that the papers are signed. (13:45): Kids don't become cognizant of that till later, but doing that kind of work is one of the ways that parents enrich their children's lives and take care of them. And that work often falls through the cracks because women in particular, although it's not always women, but often women go back to work and then they're not as available as they had been. So why do families who do fifty fifty do best when they have financial resources and they live near each other and they're really educated? Because they hire a nanny, they hire other people to do the driving, they fill in a lot of the tasks. But if you can't do that, then your kid comes home while you're both working and they know if they're old enough to take a snack and wait till you get home or to start their homework, but they're likely to have less parenting overall. (14:43): That's an example of one study, but a very large one, over 7,000 kids over 12 years. But there are other studies like that all over the world that show that time does not matter once you control for parents' mental health, the parent's relationship with each other, the parent's relationship with the child, education, socioeconomic status. You control for all that and very few studies show that time makes a difference. Katherine Miller (15:12): Interesting. I want to go back to something you said a few minutes ago that when parents try to reconstruct post-divorce the pre-divorce holiday structure, for example, Thanksgiving, so often people feel bad about disrupting the family life for their kids. I mean, that makes sense. And what that means is that they're trying to hold onto as much of the way life looked before we got divorced as possible so that Thanksgiving should look the same way as it did Christmas or Hanukkah or Rosh Hashanah or Easter, whatever. It should look as much the way it was, but maybe we'll celebrate it together. When people say that, I sometimes ask them about making sure that they're really clear with their kids about the boundaries because I've talked to a lot of people on this show and otherwise children easily confuse and always hope for their parents to reconcile. (16:09): I think you talked about making a new set of traditions. Marsha, if you would talk a little bit about that and how parents should think about the preservation of the family tradition and the creation of new traditions around holidays. Marsha Kline Pruett (16:23): Absolutely. So one of the things to remember again is that often parents of divorce feel so badly about the divorce that they forget that what's happening to them is actually going to happen in life generally. For instance, as your kids get older, you don't have every Thanksgiving. I don't have every Thanksgiving. My kids go to the in-laws one year in our house the next year and the in-laws the next year, they have to divide their lives between two families unless everybody lives in the same place. Again, that's less likely to happen if you are higher socioeconomics than if you live in a neighborhood where no one's moved out of. But even then, people create different situations. So you need to sit down with your kids and say, "Okay, we all love Thanksgiving and this year we're not doing it with dad's family. So what part do we want to do? (17:22): How about if next weekend when no one else is doing Thanksgiving, we make the turkey and do everything and invite all of our friends over who can come because they're now free and we make Thanksgiving and we give thanks for this incredible friendship network we have, or we invite the cousins who are not free to come Thanksgiving, but they can come the next weekend. So one important thing is not to hold on to just counting the days, specifying the days. I have families where the parents say the child should be with me on my birthday, not the kid's birthday even, but their birthday. And the kid is old enough, the parent is old enough. If it's four days later, if it's seven days later, nobody is going to think less of it. It's important to think about the meaning of being together and not about the day. (18:19): If you had big family Thanksgivings, maybe you change and you go to a soup kitchen every year for Thanksgiving and help people who don't have enough to eat themselves, and then that makes you feel really good and you're not home going, "Oh, we're so small. Where's the rest of our family?" So the idea is to create traditions that people love and that are new and that don't replicate and feel like a little less than what we used to do, but rather something big and exciting. I know one family I worked with began going to the beach every single Christmas, so they usually went to locally, but one year they went down to Florida and they talked about having Santa Claus show up in a helicopter to the beach and throw candies at everybody, and everyone laughed about how ridiculous it seemed. But then they all went swimming and they began to say, "This is pretty cool. (19:22): Maybe we'll stop thinking of Santa coming down the chimney after all, we are 15 now, and maybe instead we'll think about Santa showing up in a helicopter and how the same feeling was happy and ridiculous." So you create things. The other thing I'd really like to say that makes a difference is that when you are living all in one home, you rarely go everywhere together. If one child has ballet lessons and one child has piano lessons and one child has soccer and another kid has lacrosse and someone's doing TaeKwonDo, parents divide and conquer and they each figure out who takes the kids and when they come back and how they come back. As soon as families get divorced, it's like everybody goes every other weekend, let's say, but kids need a break from each other. One of the things that makes healthy sibling relationships, especially at certain ages, is to have time alone with your parents when your younger sibling isn't all over it or your older sibling isn't sucking all the air out of the room. (20:31): I had one kid in a family say, "I don't care. I never want to be in this family again if you keep talking about colleges. All we talk about is the oldest child is going to go to college and which college and you don't talk about anything about me. If you split it up, parents could be with kids every single weekend if they want." I'm not saying your kids are always apart, that wouldn't be ideal, but there's no reason that every Saturday we couldn't switch off and we couldn't both see our kids every weekend. So don't think of your kids as a wolf pack. Think of them as having different developmental needs and not always wanting to sit on the sidelines, kicking a ball, watching their older sibling do everything they have to do. Some of that, of course, that's family life, but not always. Katherine Miller (21:22): Divorce Dialogues is brought to you by Miller Law Group. We believe divorce isn't just a legal process, it's a human transition. At Miller Law Group, we help people navigate divorce with dignity, clarity, and respect, focusing on conversations that lead to better outcomes for families. Learn more at miller-law.com. Marsha, you've talked a lot about the quality of the parent-child relationship. I was thinking about going on and asking about the co-parenting relationship, but I think we should talk for a minute about what makes for a high quality parent-child relationship, because I don't think it's always roses and unicorns. I know that parents, because I hear this all the time in my divorcing clients, often disagree about discipline. I just wonder what your thoughts are about what goes into a healthy parent-child relationship, and if you could sneak in a few words about discipline, that'd be great too. Marsha Kline Pruett (22:20): The research is really clear that the combination of warmth and affection and structured discipline creates strong parenting and strong parent-child bonds. If you're not warm and affectionate, then you could be a great structured disciplinarian and your kid's not going to feel as loved, but also you could be super loving but miss the boat on what your kid needs you to do. There's a word in the scholarly literature called scaffolding, and what that means is that in the same way, if you're building a building that you can't put the top level up, you have to build scaffolding that you climb onto to then put the next level up. You have to get up there somehow. The same is true in child development. You need to help your child climb the steps that they need to be able to reach the next level. They can't just jump or fly up there. (23:17): So if you can continue to expect what you've always expected from your kids, parents of divorce sometimes feels guilty or sad, and they stop expecting their kids to clean up after themselves, to be kind to other people, to not be nasty to their parents or their siblings, that is harmful. Make sure you expect them to act the way they always did, and then warmly and confidently help them move towards understanding and also acting appropriately for their age, and that makes them feel safe. Wow, mom hasn't changed. Dad is still wanting me to be the best baseball player in the whole league, and I'm not, but at least not stake like, oh, I don't care anymore what you do, or I don't expect you to because poor you. Katherine Miller (24:13): I think that's really helpful. All right, so now I'm going to ask you about the co-parenting relationship, and we know that a low conflict relationship between parents is better. If you do have a high conflict relationship, minimize the contact. You need to know you're never going to convince the other person that you're better than they think you are. But sometimes parents have a real concern about the safety or wellbeing of their child or children in the other parent's home, and sometimes that's a genuine concern because there's genuinely a risk, and sometimes they just have a bad experience of the other parent, and it could be a really bad experience, so I'm not minimizing that at all. And do you have any thoughts about how a parent can distinguish between a concern that is really about the child and something that's coming from their own experience of being in a relationship with that other parent? Marsha Kline Pruett (25:00): A lot of the work I do with couples who are split up and who are not agreeing on anything is to help them distinguish. We make lists of what is really a safety issue, what is a values issue, and what is a developmental history issue? What of my past experience do I have with you, and am I correctly seeing that you're different? I do a lot of work with dads, and one of the things moms always say is, "I'm so angry because he didn't do anything with our child like he's doing now, and that's all I thought about. I wanted him to be more involved. I wanted him to do things differently, and now we're divorced, and now he's doing it. If he was that kind of dad, I don't think we would've ever gotten divorced. The thing is that sometimes it's being apart that allows him to be that kind of dad, because maybe mom had such strong ideas about how things should go that he didn't feel like his ideas had any merit or any room to grow. (26:05): Sometimes people grow when they get divorced. I've also seen both dads and moms say," I didn't think this was that important, but this is my last chance. I could lose my kids. I never thought about I was coming home and they were there, but now I could not see them and I could lose them, and so they change. They hit some point where they say, "I need this to go differently for me and for them." So if it's a values decision, then I have parents lay it out and get their different values and see whether maybe it's okay to have different values in different homes. But if it's a real safety issue, if it's about where children go, how soon can they get on a bus or a train or travel or how do we keep them safe from strangers? That's one the parents fight about. (27:00): And then how does the iPhone play into that? What kind of social media is my child on? And what part of that is safe and what part of that is not safe? That's a second part. Now, social media is sometimes just about what we agree or don't agree kids should be on or for how long. That's not a safety issue, but I do talk to parents about that could be a mental health issue. If you have a child who has difficulty with social relationships, having them be on the phone, allowing them to fill in those gaps with social media prevents them from actually making the kinds of relationships they need to grow beyond that. So at that point, you're really talking about a mental health and a wellbeing issue. So when it's at that, either the parents need to agree or they need to agree on someone who gets to guide them if they can't agree, because just staying stuck on it forever just gives kids the chance to work it between the parents and to either act out or feel bad. (28:06): They have to get that straight. And safety issues are abundant. Certainly in families who live in cities, there are more of them than those in small towns. Certainly those whose kids are a little bit older, certainly those kids who have older siblings. That can work both ways. I've seen kids get dragged around with older siblings in ways that are really unsafe, and I've seen kids do things that normally you wouldn't let a nine-year-old do, that they're with their 14-year-old sister and it's okay. So sorting off those columns is really important. Katherine Miller (28:40): I hear you. Values decision versus a safety decision, and sometimes there's overlap. You have a value when you talk about social media, you might have a stance on what social media is appropriate for an eight-year-old, 10-year-old, 12-year-old. There may be a place where that's just a values and maybe the rules are different in mom's house and dad's house, and maybe there is an actual mental health issue, which now you start to approach a safety issue in terms of the person, the child's wellbeing. And at that point, getting a little bit more serious and maybe getting some professional help to make a decision so that you could be more on the same page about that is a good idea. Marsha Kline Pruett (29:21): So if a child spends two hours on Sundays in one home, they're allowed two hours a day, and in another home, they're allowed three hours a day, that is a values decision, and it could be different. However, if it gets to the point, and it does in high conflict families where the children report, dad says he lets us go on for up to two hours, but we get to go on all the time. I had one little client where dad would go to bed and leave the iPad where the child could reach it, and dad would go to bed and the kid would get up out of the bed around 10 o'clock, go get the iPad and They'll be on it at one in the morning. Katherine Miller (30:01): Oh, wow. Marsha Kline Pruett (30:02): Or they'd come back up at seven in the morning and dad wouldn't get up till nine. So at that point, you're moving from a values to real parenting. And you have to say to parents, "Look, if you can't manage this, then you're basically giving your child permission to do things that you don't even agree they should be doing. That carries over. Is that the message you want? And at what point do we need to stop that?" Katherine Miller (30:29): Yeah, that seems like a really big message way beyond social media, basically saying, "I'm just going to look the other way. You do whatever you want, just don't tell me about it." Marsha Kline Pruett (30:37): And parents will do that if they're dying to let the kids stay with them and the kid's not dying to stay with them. So if you have a little girl who comes and says, "I really don't want to be with mom this week. I just don't need to see my mom. I'm closer to my dad." Mom will often, "Well, here's some extra candy or here's some extra social media or anything to get you to stay and be happy to be with me." That is an understandable response, but it also is self-defeating. Katherine Miller (31:07): I have two more questions that I'd like to ask my guests toward the end of the show, and one I call the reframe. So for you, Marsha, what is a common way that parents think about custody or co-parenting during divorce that you wish you could reframe for them? And what would you want them to focus on instead? I bet I know what your answer is going to be, but I'm curious to hear if I'm right. Marsha Kline Pruett (31:26): I'll put two things in and I think you'll know the first one. The first one is kids don't count. They don't measure love in terms of numbers of hours. That's not a kid's construct. But the second thing is that research shows that parents often get a little competitive and try and get closer to the child than the other parent or to I'm the better person. I can show you that. Research shows that when kids are close to both parents, they actually have better relationships with each parent. It's not a competitive thing. It's a summative thing. Katherine Miller (32:07): That's interesting. It's like a symbiotic relationship. The better the relationship is one, the better it can be with the other. That's really interesting. Marsha Kline Pruett (32:14): Exactly. And so if I want to have a good relationship with my kid, trying to get my kid to be mad at my ex is likely to cause all kinds of problems for both of us. While if I get them into a good relationship, my relationship's going to be even better. Katherine Miller (32:29): That's interesting. Last question, and it's about what surprised you most. So after all the years of studying children and family through separation and divorce, what has surprised you the most about what actually helps children do well? Marsha Kline Pruett (32:43): Boy, I've been around the block so many times. I'm not surprised very often, but I was surprised. I spent a lot of my life developing interventions for shared parenting. I am known as a co-parenting expert, both clinically and in research. And I was surprised, but also makes sense to learn that if you get a good co-parenting relationship going, both parents tend to be better parents. But having two good relationships, parent and child, mom-child and dad child or mom and mom does not affect co-parenting. And it's co-parenting that often sets up the better parent-child relationships that leads to better child outcomes. So it kind of all starts with co-parenting and you can't avoid that, but that's not time. Katherine Miller (33:33): I think that sometimes there could be a listener out here thinking, "Listen, I am doing my darnedest here to be a good parent. I'm doing my darnedest to have a good relationship with my ex, but that person is just not cooperating." And I think that continuing to do your best, to do the work that you are doing, even with someone you cannot control is helpful for your children and for yourself and your long-term relationship. So I just wonder, Marsha, if you agree with that or if you see it differently. Marsha Kline Pruett (34:03): I do agree with that, but I also think boundaries are helpful. If there is someone who will not work with you, who just will not come around, who is not a good influence, you got to keep trying and you got to keep making it the best you can be, but you also can put up a bit of a wall. And I know in your other sessions you've talked about having a business relationship and having distance. You also can take care of yourself by don't keep knocking your head against the wall. Sometimes it really can't be a co-parenting Katherine Miller (34:36): Relationship. 100%. I'm not saying that you should. I'm saying that you can accept that this person isn't going to engage, but yet you still don't trash talk him or her to your kids. You show up to be the best parent that you possibly can be, even if no one's helping you do it. Marsha Kline Pruett (34:51): If you trash talk, then your kids may or may not agree with it later and they blame you or they disagree or they take your side and lose something. They will see what the reality is. It may take a little time if they're young, but kids pick up easily and they are so appreciative of the parent who didn't make it worse when it could have been so much worse and they are very grateful and the rest of your lives and their lives and their children's lives, you have all that time because you hung in there and you stayed clear and straight, but also moved on without letting it interfere in you and your child's life more than it asked to. Katherine Miller (35:38): Yeah. And after all, the majority of our relationship with our children happens after they leave our home, we hope. Marsha Kline Pruett (35:44): Exactly. And many children of high conflict divorce don't want anything to do with their parents. I'm sure you’ve heard that there's almost an epidemic now of adult children cutting off their parents for years, not just a divorce, but it happens and one place it begins is there and you want all that time later. So keep the big picture in the long game. Katherine Miller (36:08): Thank you so much Marsha Klein-Pruitt for being my guest on Divorce Dialogues. It's been a really interesting conversation. Marsha Kline Pruett (36:15): Thank you, Katherine. Thanks for caring about this topic and to all the families out there who are in distress right now, it does get better. There are people out there to help it get better on resources and be patient and hang in there and keep loving. It will work out. Katherine Miller (36:35): If this conversation was helpful, share it with someone who might need it. And if you're navigating divorce yourself, you'll find more resources and episodes at miller-law.com. Make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.