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How to serialize a book on Substack · Substack Writers Salon

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SPEAKER_02: We are live.
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SPEAKER_02: All right.
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SPEAKER_02: Hi, everyone, and welcome to another Substack Live.
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SPEAKER_02: I have with me today author Anna Vatouni.
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SPEAKER_02: And Anna is a writer,
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SPEAKER_02: storyteller,
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and a personal brand strategist known for her deeply personal
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and reflective
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SPEAKER_02: content.
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SPEAKER_02: She gained prominence through her Substack memoir, Lonely Girl.
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SPEAKER_02: where she candidly explores themes of vulnerability,
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SPEAKER_02: self-discovery,
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SPEAKER_02: and the complexity of modern womanhood.
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SPEAKER_02: So beyond her writing,
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SPEAKER_02: Anna is the creator of the personal brand Accelerator,
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a platform dedicated to helping individuals craft authentic
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personal narratives.
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SPEAKER_02: Anna, I'm so happy to have you here with me today.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course.
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SPEAKER_02: I've been following your Substack, your Instagram, your TikTok.
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SPEAKER_02: I've been stalking you.
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SPEAKER_02: So I think,
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SPEAKER_02: Anna,
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SPEAKER_02: my first question,
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SPEAKER_02: which is I'm really excited about,
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SPEAKER_02: is to ask you about your experience serializing your memoir on Substack.
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SPEAKER_02: I think the first question for me is,
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what gave you the idea to do this kind of unconventional
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approach to storytelling?
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SPEAKER_01: I remember the day like it was yesterday, honestly.
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I was scrolling on Substack,
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on the For You page on Substack,
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looking at people's notes.
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And I came across this note that was all about authors
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serializing their book on Substack.
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SPEAKER_01: And just basically it was like asking people what they thought about it.
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SPEAKER_01: And I just read this whole thread of people talking about it,
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SPEAKER_01: kind of debating it,
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SPEAKER_01: talking about the ins and outs and what they would do or not do.
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SPEAKER_01: And there was just like a lightning bolt just like shot through me.
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SPEAKER_01: I was like, I want to do this.
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SPEAKER_01: I want to publish my book on Substack.
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SPEAKER_01: I remember like getting up off the bed.
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I was in our bedroom and I ran to my husband in the other room
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and I was like,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm going to publish my book on Substack.
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SPEAKER_01: And he was like, what's that?
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SPEAKER_01: And she was like, what are you talking about?
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SPEAKER_01: And it just was like this instant aha moment,
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SPEAKER_01: because I think at that stage,
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I had actually been talking with a publisher and she was going
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to take me on as one
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SPEAKER_01: of her clients.
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And we went back and forth for months with our lawyers trying
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to get the contract just right.
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SPEAKER_01: And there was something about it that just wasn't hitting me.
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SPEAKER_01: And I really respect this publisher.
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SPEAKER_01: I think she's amazing.
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SPEAKER_01: And I really wanted to work with her.
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But for whatever reason,
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I just felt like this inclination,
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like,
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go a different way.
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SPEAKER_01: And so we had decided we weren't going to move forward together.
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And so I was in this in-between phase where I wasn't sure what
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I was going to do.
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SPEAKER_01: I had this draft done of the book.
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SPEAKER_01: And I was ready to get to the next point.
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SPEAKER_01: But it just felt so inaccessible.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think that was the big aha moment with Substack and even
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SPEAKER_01: viewing that as a possibility that I could do it,
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SPEAKER_01: it was immediately like the doors opened,
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SPEAKER_01: the gates opened.
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SPEAKER_01: It was accessible.
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It was like something that I could do tomorrow and I could just
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start taking action.
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SPEAKER_01: Whereas I think with any sort of publishing,
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SPEAKER_01: traditional publishing,
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SPEAKER_01: or even just self-publishing,
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SPEAKER_01: especially if it's your first time,
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SPEAKER_01: there's so much,
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SPEAKER_01: there's so many hoops to jump through and
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SPEAKER_01: And it can feel really overwhelming if you've never done it before.
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SPEAKER_01: And I was just looking for a way to get started.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's what Substack provided me.
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SPEAKER_02: So I'm curious, why didn't you just go to another publisher?
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SPEAKER_02: Why Substack?
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SPEAKER_01: I think because I was tired of waiting.
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I had been writing the book at that point for like four years,
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three and a half years.
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SPEAKER_01: And I just felt like I was tired of sitting on it.
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SPEAKER_01: Like I just needed to go.
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SPEAKER_01: I was so impatient.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think it was just like, it was time to put it up.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: So for me, I experimented with this.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm going to tell you about my not so successful experiment later on.
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SPEAKER_02: But weren't you worried a bit about if you put it out there first?
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SPEAKER_02: you're going to eliminate any possibility of traditional publishing,
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because usually if the traditional publisher finds out that you
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have it out there,
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SPEAKER_02: this is it.
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SPEAKER_02: They're going to run away.
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SPEAKER_02: And two, were you worried about like plagiarism?
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People stealing it and claiming it as their own or like I
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published a novel and
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SPEAKER_02: somehow already a PDF,
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SPEAKER_02: a pirated PDF versions of my novel are like or are all over the Internet.
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SPEAKER_02: So these are my questions, the traditional publishing and plagiarism.
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SPEAKER_01: I think that my intuition,
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SPEAKER_01: or I don't know,
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SPEAKER_01: it was just such a strong feeling that I was supposed to do this,
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SPEAKER_01: that it kind of outweighed any of the worries that I had.
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SPEAKER_01: A lot of people brought that to me.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm part of a writing group and we meet every Friday.
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SPEAKER_01: We actually just met a few hours ago.
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SPEAKER_01: And when I brought them this idea, that's what they asked me.
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They were like,
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what happens if a publisher finds it and won't work with you
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because of that?
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SPEAKER_01: Or what happens if someone plagiarizes?
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SPEAKER_01: Exactly, the whole thing.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think I just felt like in my gut that none of that mattered.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, this was what I was supposed to do.
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SPEAKER_01: And there is, of course, that chance.
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But it just felt like the path was so clear to me that not to
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take it would feel...
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SPEAKER_01: just the most, it would feel unnatural almost.
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SPEAKER_01: So I'm really going off the feeling.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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SPEAKER_01: That was really all I had.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't have a very good strategy for that.
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SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's always the possibility too.
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SPEAKER_01: But I think part of it was,
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I think at that point when I decided that Substack was going to
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be the path,
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I had made up my mind that I was not going to work with a
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publisher on it.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, I think I felt clear.
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SPEAKER_01: And maybe that was me shutting that door.
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SPEAKER_01: No, of course, like, let's say maybe...
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SPEAKER_01: Even still,
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SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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I've heard of authors serializing or publishing their books and
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then later working
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SPEAKER_01: with a bigger publisher.
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I think that could still definitely happen,
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but I'm not holding my breath for it.
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I think I feel like excited about the path I chose and was just
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ready to walk it.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: So from a scale of like 10,
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SPEAKER_02: one to 10,
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SPEAKER_02: how would you assess the...
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SPEAKER_02: Because you finished the novel and I understand is you published it,
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SPEAKER_02: correct?
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SPEAKER_02: You self-published it?
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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SPEAKER_02: So from a scale... Yeah, go ahead.
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SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
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SPEAKER_02: There you go.
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So I'm saying from a scale one to 10,
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how would you assess this experiment?
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SPEAKER_01: Whew.
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SPEAKER_01: It was really hard.
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SPEAKER_01: It was really, really hard.
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SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't go back and do it differently.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm glad I did it.
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SPEAKER_01: It taught me so much.
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SPEAKER_01: But it is an enormous amount of work.
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It's a massive undertaking to serialize a body of work like
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that and to do so on a
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consistent publishing schedule because it's not just the
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writing that you're
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SPEAKER_01: publishing.
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SPEAKER_01: You are putting out, in a sense...
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It's like every week there's a version of your book that goes
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out and it has to be
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SPEAKER_01: completed and stand by itself.
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SPEAKER_01: It's not just like you're publishing one big book.
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SPEAKER_01: It's like you're publishing.
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SPEAKER_01: I had 16 chapters.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm publishing in my mind.
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16 mini books every week or one book for 16 weeks that's how it
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felt because
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there's the audio piece there's the visuals there is just the
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it's almost like
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every title every chapter title is the title that is going to
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make or break whether
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SPEAKER_01: someone or not someone reads the book or not
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SPEAKER_01: It's like all of these massive decisions it feels like you're making.
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SPEAKER_01: And by the end of it, you have – at least I did.
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SPEAKER_01: I had decision fatigue.
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SPEAKER_01: I was so exhausted.
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SPEAKER_01: And I sorely underestimated how long it would take every week.
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I mean,
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I was working on chapters 20,
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25 hours a week on top of my full-time business,
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my job.
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SPEAKER_01: So it was just –
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SPEAKER_01: It was massive.
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And I think part of it too was that I had a draft that I
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thought was farther along
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SPEAKER_01: than it probably was.
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SPEAKER_01: So I think that was part of it,
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that I actually had to do a lot of reformatting of the book and
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of the story
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SPEAKER_01: because I didn't write it for Substack.
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SPEAKER_01: I wrote it for print.
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And to publish something online in a digital space is so much
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different than
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SPEAKER_01: publishing something for print.
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SPEAKER_01: In print, you have, I think, more of a luxury to build up to things.
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SPEAKER_01: You can build up to big moments,
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SPEAKER_01: whereas online,
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all the juice has to go at the very front because that is going
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to determine
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SPEAKER_01: whether or not someone actually reads the full chapter.
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SPEAKER_01: So I was moving things around.
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SPEAKER_01: I was having to get really strategic with how I was positioning people
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SPEAKER_01: every chapter so that it would get read by people.
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SPEAKER_01: People would see it.
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SPEAKER_01: That was massive.
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SPEAKER_01: It just took a lot of time.
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So I was burnt out,
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I would say by the end,
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but it was an amazing experience too.
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SPEAKER_02: You mentioned an audio part.
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SPEAKER_02: What do you mean an audio part?
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Because for me,
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when I did,
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like,
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I serialized maybe three or four chapters.
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SPEAKER_02: I might continue.
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SPEAKER_02: I might not.
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SPEAKER_02: Maybe you convinced me.
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SPEAKER_02: But I just would, my manuscript was ready.
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SPEAKER_02: It's just I did not get a publisher.
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SPEAKER_02: And I was like you after two rejections.
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SPEAKER_02: It was like, you know, I'm too old for this.
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SPEAKER_02: So I just, I mean, I'm not going to wait forever.
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SPEAKER_02: No.
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SPEAKER_02: So I just copied the manuscript, which was already edited.
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SPEAKER_02: I copied, like, copy one chapter, post it on Substack, and then hit push.
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SPEAKER_02: Part of it, I didn't put much effort like you did.
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SPEAKER_02: So what did you do differently?
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Yeah,
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I mean,
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I treated every release as though I was releasing an album.
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SPEAKER_01: That's how it felt.
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SPEAKER_01: Because I was doing all the promotion.
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SPEAKER_01: I was marketing it.
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SPEAKER_01: I was going all out, full send.
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And I think that the audio piece was actually a component that
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people said they liked the most.
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And what I would do for that is I would voice record every
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single chapter.
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Now the voice record,
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it would take me about 20 minutes to record each chapter.
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SPEAKER_01: Of course, now I'm making mistakes as I go.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm like saying the wrong word and I have to like start.
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And so then I would record it,
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but then it would take me an hour or two to edit that
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recording.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm like in GarageBand,
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SPEAKER_01: I've never done,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm not an audio or sound engineer,
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SPEAKER_01: but I'm just like...
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SPEAKER_01: Figuring it out as I go,
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getting everything all teed up and then publishing the audio
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with the entire
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SPEAKER_01: chapter.
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I also had,
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I hired a voice actor to come in and do one of the characters.
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SPEAKER_01: And so just getting that all tied up, like it was just...
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SPEAKER_01: The voice stuff took so long.
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SPEAKER_01: It was ridiculous.
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SPEAKER_01: Now,
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SPEAKER_01: if I invested a little bit more money into it,
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SPEAKER_01: I could have probably hired someone to do that piece for me.
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SPEAKER_01: But to be honest,
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I did not have my stuff together enough to even hire someone
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because I was just
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SPEAKER_01: like last minute doing all of this as the week,
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SPEAKER_01: as it was coming.
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SPEAKER_01: So it was me.
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SPEAKER_01: It was all me.
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SPEAKER_01: I was doing all of it.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay, so what was the result of this experiment, right?
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So for me,
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so we're going to compare the successful approach with the
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failure here.
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SPEAKER_02: No, not a failure.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay,
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SPEAKER_02: so for me,
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SPEAKER_02: I would push a chapter,
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SPEAKER_02: I would get a comment or two likes here and there,
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SPEAKER_02: and that's it.
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know what I was expecting,
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SPEAKER_02: but I don't know,
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SPEAKER_02: how was your feedback after you pushed one chapter?
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SPEAKER_02: What was the reaction?
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SPEAKER_01: You know, I saw... This is so interesting.
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SPEAKER_01: Great question.
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I saw a direct correlation to how successful a chapter was
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based on how much I
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SPEAKER_01: marketed it and how much I talked about it.
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If there were weeks where I couldn't get on Instagram and talk
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about what was
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SPEAKER_01: coming out,
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SPEAKER_01: then I saw a...
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SPEAKER_01: a dip in engagement.
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SPEAKER_01: So it was directly proportional to how much I was promoting my work.
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SPEAKER_01: And that was tough because towards the end,
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SPEAKER_01: I would say even about halfway through,
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SPEAKER_01: I was losing steam.
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Like I was just at that point,
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really fatigued from marketing so much and promoting.
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SPEAKER_01: And then on top of just the actual production of the chapter,
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I would say it was massive in the sense that I started with no
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paid subscribers and
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you know,
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at one point it's since lower now,
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since the book isn't,
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I'm not serializing anymore.
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At one point I had 350 paid subscribers and that was all as a
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result of publishing the book.
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SPEAKER_01: But then the marketing, the promotion, that was like the big, big piece.
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SPEAKER_01: And it just was such a testament to you.
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SPEAKER_01: We have to put our work there out there.
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SPEAKER_01: We have to talk about it or else no one knows.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: So how did you market it?
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Besides like,
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for me,
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I just push it,
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it goes to the subscribers and say,
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see you later.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: What did you do?
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SPEAKER_01: I will say, this is the caveat.
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SPEAKER_01: I have an audience already on TikTok and Instagram.
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I have around 200,000 followers on TikTok and 50,000 followers
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on Instagram.
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SPEAKER_01: Now I will say with TikTok, it's like such a gamble.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: even though people have big audiences,
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SPEAKER_01: it's almost like every video kind of stands alone.
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And so it doesn't even matter how much,
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you know,
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the content has to be good for it to get seen.
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SPEAKER_01: So that said, I was hustling pretty hard on Instagram and TikTok.
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And what I would do is I would share original pieces of writing
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that I had never
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SPEAKER_01: published before.
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SPEAKER_01: But it was on topics that I explored in the book.
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SPEAKER_01: And so my thought was like,
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SPEAKER_01: if I'm writing about this stuff and people are resonating with it,
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SPEAKER_01: then it's going to make sense for them.
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SPEAKER_01: They're probably going to like what I have in my book.
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And so that was the funnel is like I would share carousel posts
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actually on TikTok.
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SPEAKER_01: That's what did the best.
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SPEAKER_01: And it would just be my writing.
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SPEAKER_01: It wasn't even video content.
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SPEAKER_01: It was just my writing.
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SPEAKER_01: It was just stories.
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SPEAKER_01: And at the very end of those carousel posts,
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SPEAKER_01: I would say,
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SPEAKER_01: if you enjoy this,
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make sure to subscribe to my Substack because I'm going to be
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posting more about
14:55
SPEAKER_01: this type of thing.
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SPEAKER_01: And that was massive.
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SPEAKER_01: Like I had thousands of people come from TikTok.
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I think Instagram is a really great place for nurturing the
15:04
community you already have.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I've had people on Instagram who've been there with me for years.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think that was,
15:12
SPEAKER_01: they were like,
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SPEAKER_01: I feel so connected to people there,
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SPEAKER_01: especially,
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SPEAKER_01: and a lot of people came from Instagram.
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SPEAKER_01: But then I think the third channel was Substack Notes.
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There were a few notes that I posted that went viral that
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brought in a ton of subscribers.
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SPEAKER_01: And now I will say most Substack subscribers were free.
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SPEAKER_01: Most of the paid subscribers,
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SPEAKER_01: I think,
15:33
came from people who I've had connections with and who've been
15:37
following me for
15:38
SPEAKER_01: some time.
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SPEAKER_01: And there was trust there.
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SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, I would say this wasn't just a few months in the making.
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SPEAKER_01: It's probably years in the making, really.
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So when you first started,
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was it behind the paywall or was it free for all?
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SPEAKER_01: When I first started my Substack,
15:57
SPEAKER_01: without even knowing I was going to serialize the book,
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SPEAKER_01: it was all free.
16:00
When I made the decision that I was going to serialize the book
16:04
on Substack,
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SPEAKER_01: everything was behind a paywall,
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SPEAKER_01: except for the first chapter.
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SPEAKER_01: I give pretty hefty previews of the chapters, but...
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SPEAKER_01: I just kind of made the decision.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I put out so much free content on Instagram, TikTok.
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SPEAKER_01: I like pour my heart into all of this content.
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SPEAKER_01: And for this, it's like, that was the one thing I decided.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm like this, I feel good about putting behind a paywall because...
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SPEAKER_01: It's just, it's like my, it's my baby, my book baby, you know?
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SPEAKER_02: And so do you think,
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SPEAKER_02: so the people who actually read your novel are,
16:39
SPEAKER_02: are on Substack are only the paid subscribers,
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SPEAKER_02: correct?
16:42
SPEAKER_02: Like the 350?
16:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: And you were okay with 350?
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SPEAKER_02: You didn't want more?
16:52
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I would have loved more.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
16:54
But I think by the time that I was in it,
16:56
it was so much less about the metrics.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: It was survival.
17:01
It was like,
17:01
I just need to finish this thing because I felt like I just got
17:05
into this massive.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: It was just such a massive project.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: And it was it felt really overwhelming.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: And I've been pretty honest about that.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: Just going through burnout kind of after that.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
17:16
SPEAKER_01: towards the end,
17:16
SPEAKER_01: I was like,
17:17
SPEAKER_01: if I just even check this off the list,
17:19
SPEAKER_01: if I even just finish this,
17:20
SPEAKER_01: this will be a massive accomplishment.
17:23
SPEAKER_01: And then after I took a couple of months off, and now I actually took...
17:30
SPEAKER_01: the Substack version and took three months and edited everything.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: And it was just like after that version was released,
17:38
there's something that shifts when you begin to see your work
17:42
not behind the
17:43
SPEAKER_01: scenes,
17:43
but then it's now all of a sudden published and you're seeing
17:45
your work through
17:46
SPEAKER_01: other people's eyes and your own eyes.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: I saw so many areas where I could improve the story.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: I could develop the arcs more fully.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: I worked,
17:55
I actually hired an editor and worked with her really closely
17:58
to just make it a
18:00
SPEAKER_01: stronger book.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think had I not done the Substack version,
18:04
SPEAKER_01: it wouldn't have given me that perspective.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: So just for that, I mean, it was amazing.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: And now I am putting the book out in print.
18:12
It's probably going to come out late August and that's going to
18:15
be on Amazon to start with.
18:18
uh and okay so what do you think was the best outcome of doing
18:25
this experiment
18:29
that's a great question um it showed me that i can do hard
18:35
things it showed me that
18:37
to to do anything or to make something that you are truly proud
18:44
of that is like
18:46
to create something substantial or meaningful to you,
18:52
it requires so much of us.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: It requires such hard work.
18:57
Um,
18:59
and at times it feels like is,
19:01
am I just making this harder for myself?
19:03
SPEAKER_01: Like, why is this so hard?
19:04
SPEAKER_01: Why does this, why is this taking so long?
19:07
And I guess what I learned at the end of it was like,
19:10
this is just what it takes.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: And
19:14
SPEAKER_01: I can stomach that.
19:15
Like I can get through it and it's going to be hard,
19:17
but what else can I do after this?
19:20
SPEAKER_01: What else can I do after publishing a book,
19:22
SPEAKER_01: after releasing it,
19:22
SPEAKER_01: after going through that emotional vulnerability hangover?
19:26
SPEAKER_01: What else now can I set out to do?
19:29
SPEAKER_01: You know, it really opened my eyes to just how much it really takes.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: And that's just part of it.
19:37
SPEAKER_02: And how is your substack now?
19:39
Since you finished the project,
19:42
what are you talking about or what's your next project?
19:48
SPEAKER_01: I took time off after.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: I felt like I had to.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: I felt like I couldn't.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: I was kind of numb.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: I couldn't even really write because I was so fatigued.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: And just actually recently this month, what are we in May?
20:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: May, I've just been...
20:05
SPEAKER_01: writing what's been coming up for me.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: And I haven't put so much structure around it.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: With the book, it was all narrative focused.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: It was like stories from my life, my life.
20:15
And now I'm just kind of writing some reflections on stuff
20:18
that's been happening
20:19
SPEAKER_01: throughout the week.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: And it's very loose.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: I do have a direction I'm probably going to take it in.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: And I think I'm going to talk more about that this coming month.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: kind of like the next thing.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: But that's what I would say for anyone who's interested in serializing or
20:33
publishing a book on Substack is you do kind of have to look
20:36
ahead and ask
20:37
SPEAKER_01: yourself,
20:38
SPEAKER_01: what am I going to do after that's done?
20:40
And that transition was really difficult for me because I had
20:43
now all these people
20:44
SPEAKER_01: who were subscribed and paying to read this book.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: What can I offer them now that the book is done?
20:51
SPEAKER_01: And I felt like really nervous about that.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to like make sure that I was honoring that
20:56
commitment I made to people but at the same time now I'm
20:59
finished with this book I
21:00
know I need to rest for a little bit before I start the next
21:03
thing um so I really
21:05
struggled with that I wasn't sure I ended up pausing paid
21:07
subscriptions just to
21:09
give me time to like figure it out which I'm glad I did that
21:12
gave me some breathing
21:13
room um but that was hard that was a hard move to make like I
21:17
just wasn't sure you
21:18
know like I I wanted I want to stay consistent but at the same
21:22
time it's like how
21:22
SPEAKER_01: can I keep going if I can't even like I have to
21:26
gather myself a little bit so so I'm curious how you got so
21:32
many followers on
21:34
TikTok on and Instagram I know you do this for a living like
21:38
you're the personal
21:39
branding expert but if you want to give us tips on how what's
21:46
your secret if you
21:47
can give us these tips for for free pro bono oh my god yeah no
21:52
I want everyone to
21:54
SPEAKER_01: know this I mean
21:56
SPEAKER_01: When I first started this work, I followed the rules.
21:59
Everyone said,
22:00
post this type of content to do X,
22:02
Y,
22:03
or Z.
22:03
And that's what I did.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: I posted the content.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: I did the hacks, the tricks, the things, and none of it worked for me.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: And it all felt like very forced.
22:13
It wasn't until I took this cross-country road trip from
22:16
Oakland to Boston,
22:17
SPEAKER_01: which is what my book is about,
22:18
SPEAKER_01: that I just threw out all of the rules.
22:21
And I was like,
22:21
I'm just going to document the trip and just post what I want
22:24
to say.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm just going to post whatever I want.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: And I gave myself complete freedom.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: that's when everything shifted for me.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: I started just doing what I felt was right for me.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: And I started saying what was actually on my heart.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: Like I started talking about loneliness.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: I started talking about what I was doing,
22:43
SPEAKER_01: like my dating,
22:45
SPEAKER_01: where I wanted to live,
22:46
like just bringing people in on like the actual stuff that I
22:49
was going through.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: And that's when my videos started going viral.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: I started sharing stories, just like leaning into my creative side.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: And I was so nervous.
23:00
I remember telling my mom,
23:02
like,
23:02
I don't know if I should be posting this stuff.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: It has nothing to do with my business, nothing.
23:06
And actually when the year that I started doing that was the
23:10
year I like tripled my revenue.
23:12
SPEAKER_01: Like everything just skyrocketed because I was following what felt right.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: And I think it can be really scary to just...
23:21
kind of disregard the structure that we've been told to follow
23:25
because structure,
23:26
SPEAKER_01: I think,
23:26
helps us feel secure and grounded and like we're moving in the
23:30
right direction.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: And just instead,
23:32
SPEAKER_01: it's kind of,
23:32
SPEAKER_01: at least for me,
23:33
I will say what really moved the needle was just following my
23:36
gut and just posting
23:38
SPEAKER_01: what I really felt called to say and share in that moment,
23:41
SPEAKER_01: which is always kind of changing,
23:43
SPEAKER_01: which can be hard.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: So what is your,
23:48
SPEAKER_02: like,
23:48
SPEAKER_02: if you want to describe your business,
23:50
SPEAKER_02: I know you focus on personal branding,
23:52
SPEAKER_02: but can you tell us a bit about beside the Substack part?
23:56
SPEAKER_02: What do you do day to day?
23:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
23:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
23:59
most I would say the biggest facet of my business is working
24:03
with my one on one
24:04
SPEAKER_01: clients.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: And I usually work with them.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: It's typically like a four-month process where I start with them.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: Most of them are starting from scratch.
24:13
SPEAKER_01: We talk about their story.
24:14
I help them define and kind of clarify what their story is,
24:18
what their message is.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: And then we build the infrastructure for them.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: So we build their website.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: I help them work with a personal brand photographer.
24:28
We just get all of their social media profiles looking like
24:31
really cohesive,
24:32
really clear.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: And a big part of it is helping them with their content.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: And the goal with content is like,
24:40
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:41
SPEAKER_01: having some sort of purpose for why you're posting,
24:44
SPEAKER_01: I think is great.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: Like just knowing like, okay, I'm posting for this reason.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's I'm posting so that I can build my Substack audience.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: And once you have that,
24:52
SPEAKER_01: like once you know,
24:53
SPEAKER_01: okay,
24:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm here to do this thing,
24:55
SPEAKER_01: then you kind of have a clear idea of what to create and how.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: And then there's so much room for flexibility within that.
25:03
And I'm helping people really figure out what it is that they
25:05
want to say and then
25:06
SPEAKER_01: say it and then do it consistently.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm kind of like their, I'm their editor.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of their coach.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm their like partner.
25:12
And a lot of people stay on after those four months and work
25:16
with me to just
25:17
SPEAKER_01: continue refining their content.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: Um,
25:20
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean, that's the process I take people through.
25:22
I also have like a community called PBA and it's the same thing
25:27
type of thing.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: You know,
25:28
people were meeting a few times a month and it's just people
25:31
who are creating and
25:32
putting their work out there and like just needing that
25:36
community element for sure.
25:38
SPEAKER_02: So the majority of your clients are content creators, authors?
25:43
SPEAKER_01: Who's your target audience?
25:49
SPEAKER_01: I would say a big portion are entrepreneurs, for sure.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: Mostly people who are doing business under their name.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: But that's not always the case.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: I have worked with some executives who just want to...
26:02
you know become thought leaders in their industry i have worked
26:04
with other people
26:05
too who are just artists writers but i would say it's very much
26:10
the entrepreneurial
26:11
spirit i think that's how i would probably say do you think
26:16
people would buy your
26:18
book even though you already gave it to at least 350 people
26:23
that's the ultimate
26:26
SPEAKER_01: question right we'll find out i mean i hope so
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I think so.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: I really do because the other piece of this too is,
26:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:37
SPEAKER_01: out of those 350 people,
26:39
SPEAKER_01: how many do you really think read the whole thing?
26:42
SPEAKER_01: You know, like probably not that many.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: Um,
26:46
SPEAKER_01: if we just think about social media,
26:48
SPEAKER_01: email in general,
26:50
SPEAKER_01: we're seeing things we're like busy in our lives.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: And,
26:52
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:53
SPEAKER_01: I might see Anna's third chapter or maybe her 12th chapter,
26:56
SPEAKER_01: but like,
26:56
SPEAKER_03: you know,
26:57
SPEAKER_01: so I do think there's room there.
27:00
to give people a different version of the same product and have
27:04
it be a completely
27:04
SPEAKER_01: different experience.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I'm betting on.
27:09
So do you think authors or solopreneurs should consider
27:14
Substack as a viable income
27:18
SPEAKER_02: strategy or one of the income buckets?
27:20
SPEAKER_02: Or is it just,
27:21
SPEAKER_02: you know,
27:21
like a side gig that will get you like a few hundred dollars a
27:25
month here and
27:26
SPEAKER_02: there?
27:26
SPEAKER_02: Where are we in terms of Substack for solopreneurs?
27:31
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I saw it.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: Like I was, I think, I mean, I was making good money.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: I was making over a thousand dollars a month.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: on Substack when I had turned on my paid subscriptions.
27:43
And I think if I were to continue down that trajectory,
27:45
it would only increase.
27:46
I mean,
27:47
I think it absolutely can be that for people if you want it to
27:51
be.
27:51
But I think the caveat there is like,
27:53
you've got to put everything into it.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: Back to that, this is what it takes.
27:57
Like if you want to make this big and if you want to make this
28:00
like your sole
28:01
SPEAKER_01: income,
28:02
SPEAKER_01: so possible.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: It's so possible, but it's like it requires everything.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: And can you give that?
28:08
SPEAKER_01: And is it the most important thing to focus on
28:11
SPEAKER_01: in comparison to the other things that are also equally,
28:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure,
28:15
SPEAKER_01: important or other things that you value.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: So...
28:21
So where do you think solopreneurs or authors or content
28:25
creators should focus on
28:28
SPEAKER_02: to get new leads,
28:30
SPEAKER_02: new clients,
28:31
SPEAKER_02: no exposure?
28:32
SPEAKER_02: If I'm going to ask you, how do you get most of your clients?
28:36
You know what's so funny is most of my clients actually come
28:40
from Google and not
28:41
SPEAKER_01: even social media.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
28:44
SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't say,
28:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
28:46
SPEAKER_01: I,
28:47
SPEAKER_01: maybe it would be more like 50,
28:48
SPEAKER_01: 50,
28:48
SPEAKER_01: I guess when I think about PBA,
28:50
SPEAKER_01: but most,
28:50
SPEAKER_01: okay.
28:51
So most of my one-on-one clients do find me on Google because
28:55
I've been blogging.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: That's another thing too.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: I've been blogging for like six years.
28:59
And I don't blog because I think,
29:02
oh,
29:02
everyone's reading my blog every week.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm just blogging for SEO.
29:06
SPEAKER_01: And I know that it helps my site rank.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: And so,
29:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
29:09
SPEAKER_01: after six years of doing that,
29:10
SPEAKER_01: it's like,
29:11
I pop up when you search personal brand coach or personal brand
29:15
strategist.
29:15
SPEAKER_01: So that's been a huge funnel for me.
29:19
But for social media,
29:20
I think that's a lot of how people have found my community,
29:23
PBA.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: And so, okay.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: So the goal is to get leads or to get new clients.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: Um,
29:32
SPEAKER_01: it is,
29:32
I think what it really comes down to is talking about how you
29:37
help people and what
29:38
SPEAKER_01: you do every single day.
29:41
It is like,
29:41
you are getting out there and you are putting yourself out
29:44
there.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: And it's not just like, here's what I do.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: It's like,
29:47
SPEAKER_01: if we think about the way or why people come to us,
29:51
SPEAKER_01: they're coming to us for,
29:52
SPEAKER_01: to,
29:52
SPEAKER_01: to solve or to help
29:55
fix a certain problem that they're working through,
29:57
or they want to get to this next phase.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: And so it's not, we want to talk about those things.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: We want to talk about the pain people are experiencing.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: We want to level with people,
30:07
SPEAKER_01: empathize with them,
30:08
like show them that we understand and then give like practical
30:13
ways to help them
30:14
SPEAKER_01: move beyond wherever they are right now.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a huge thing, but also,
30:20
SPEAKER_01: Two,
30:21
SPEAKER_01: you can do that even just by sharing your own story and telling people,
30:26
SPEAKER_01: like,
30:27
SPEAKER_01: showing people what you've done,
30:28
SPEAKER_01: where you've been.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: And actually, that has been more effective, for me at least, is focusing.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: I think there's two ways to do it.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: There's the you.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: This is how you can do it,
30:37
SPEAKER_01: X,
30:37
SPEAKER_01: Y,
30:37
SPEAKER_01: and Z.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: Or there's the I.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: This is how I've done it,
30:41
SPEAKER_01: X,
30:41
SPEAKER_01: Y,
30:41
SPEAKER_01: and Z.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: This is what worked for me.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: And that might inspire you.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
30:45
SPEAKER_01: I hope it does.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: If it does, great.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: And then they find your website.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: Then they're more curious.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: Um,
30:51
SPEAKER_01: and I think that's actually the trend I've been seeing more,
30:54
SPEAKER_01: especially on social media is like,
30:57
SPEAKER_01: I can search anything online.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: I can look at how to build a business,
31:01
SPEAKER_01: how to create a funnel,
31:02
SPEAKER_01: how to build a personal brand and get information instantly.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: But I'm never going to know your story unless you tell me and your story,
31:10
SPEAKER_01: what you've done,
31:11
SPEAKER_01: where you have been.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: I can only get that from you.
31:14
I can get that anywhere else that I think really helps people
31:17
stand out for sure.
31:20
SPEAKER_02: That's a very valid point,
31:21
because if I think about anything that does well on my social
31:25
media posts,
31:26
SPEAKER_02: whether LinkedIn or Substack,
31:28
SPEAKER_02: it's personal updates.
31:32
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I spend hours writing tips and how to put...
31:38
SPEAKER_02: But sometimes I just put a picture of my dog.
31:42
SPEAKER_02: And then...
31:46
SPEAKER_02: And then like,
31:47
SPEAKER_02: you know,
31:48
SPEAKER_02: walking my dog sometimes while I walk,
31:51
SPEAKER_02: I get ideas and I jot them down on my recorder or whatever.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: And that's be the post.
31:57
SPEAKER_02: It took me 30 seconds.
31:58
SPEAKER_02: And that would be like the highest engagement.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: I would get paid subscribers.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: You see how that happens?
32:05
SPEAKER_01: I know.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: I experienced the same thing.
32:09
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so what are your top tips to grow on?
32:14
SPEAKER_02: Let's focus on Substack now since we're using the platform.
32:19
What are your top tips to and where do live streaming kind of
32:25
fit in the midst of
32:26
SPEAKER_02: that because it's still a new feature?
32:30
SPEAKER_01: I know.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: I love this.
32:32
Doing lives,
32:33
I think,
32:33
is great because everyone gets notified when you go live.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm glad that you're doing that and taking advantage of it.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: I should probably do more so than I'm doing now.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: But I would say to grow on Substack, it's notes.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: Like that is how you grow.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: That has been the biggest growth proponent, I think, for me.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: Um,
32:53
SPEAKER_01: when I,
32:54
SPEAKER_01: when I was first starting with notes,
32:55
the thing that I published the most was my journey publishing
32:59
my book on Substack.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: And that is what got picked up a ton because it's related to Substack.
33:05
Everyone who's on Substack now,
33:07
we've only just been here for a few years.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, context matters too.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I wouldn't just say, start posting notes about anything.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: Like think about, Hmm.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: I take that back.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: I take that back.
33:23
I think when you're first starting on notes,
33:26
there is an experiential phase.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's what I would say is like for the first month,
33:31
SPEAKER_01: post a note a day,
33:32
challenge yourself to do one note a day and give yourself full
33:36
creative freedom to
33:37
SPEAKER_01: do and say whatever comes to your mind.
33:41
I find having a running list in my notes app works really well
33:45
as I'm going throughout the day.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: And then like a moment happens or like, Oh, just a moment of clarity.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: I write it down.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: And then I've got my running lists that I'm always pulling from.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: After you go for that first month of experiencing or experiencing things,
33:58
SPEAKER_01: trying new things, then look at, okay, what data can I pull from this?
34:03
SPEAKER_01: What worked really well?
34:05
SPEAKER_01: What do I enjoy making?
34:06
SPEAKER_01: What do people seem to resonate with?
34:08
SPEAKER_01: And can I find that sweet spot of where I kind of want to take this?
34:12
The other thing I will say is when you have some sort of like a
34:15
series,
34:16
some sort of like a
34:18
SPEAKER_01: like a main,
34:19
like a mission or a movement or something that you can like
34:23
really just push
34:24
SPEAKER_01: forward that feels more tangible.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: People really like that.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, with Lonely Girl, with my book, that helped a lot.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: I've seen other people do like a series of,
34:35
SPEAKER_01: they keep pointing people back to, I'll give you another idea.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: I just shared this with the client,
34:39
SPEAKER_01: but I was like,
34:40
SPEAKER_01: why don't you document the entire journey of getting to 10,000 or yeah,
34:46
SPEAKER_01: making $10,000 a month on sub stack.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: How many paid subscriptions would you have to get?
34:51
SPEAKER_01: So we did it.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: We like 2000 paid subscriptions.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: 2000 paid subscriptions at what was it?
34:58
SPEAKER_01: $5 a month.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, Substack takes some.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: So you're not making a full 10K.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: But whatever, you get the idea.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: Document that process.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: Right?
35:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, I would follow that.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: I would want to know, okay, I'm starting.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: This is day one of me getting to 2,000 paid subscribers.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: Like, boom, there you go.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: That's your life.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: That's your thing.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: Pick a challenge for yourself and then share the journey.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: We're dying to see a before and after process.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: People love to watch a story kind of unfold in real time.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: Like a soap opera.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: Give us the drama.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: Give us the drama.
35:39
SPEAKER_02: Substack telenovela.
35:41
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
35:43
SPEAKER_02: That should be a title of my new publication.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
35:47
SPEAKER_01: But also,
35:47
SPEAKER_01: you can also do that,
35:49
SPEAKER_01: even if it's not Substack or social media related,
35:51
SPEAKER_01: what's a challenge offline?
35:53
SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, I'm doing 30 days of, like...
35:56
yoga once a day or like yeah that you know yeah that's
35:59
something to follow that
36:01
helps i think anchor your content too if you if you thrive if
36:04
you're someone who
36:05
thrives with having structure something like that could be good
36:09
that's another tip
36:10
that i'm just you reminded me of just put the word substack and
36:14
you're not and
36:16
SPEAKER_02: you're not will go viral just ask literally
36:20
SPEAKER_02: I don't know why.
36:21
SPEAKER_02: People just love reading stuff about Substack on Substack.
36:27
SPEAKER_01: Because we're all new here.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: Relatively new.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: It's a new platform everyone's trying to figure out.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: We're all trying to figure it out.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: And that's why it does well.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's true.
36:40
SPEAKER_02: So would you do your experiment again on Substack?
36:47
SPEAKER_03: Publish another book?
36:50
SPEAKER_01: You know what?
36:51
I think I would,
36:52
but maybe the one difference would be that I wouldn't do it so
36:56
formally.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: I might use it more as like a, like I'm testing material.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: versus like, these are like, this is like a hard launch of something.
37:08
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: Just for my own sanity.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: But not to say... This is my style.
37:14
SPEAKER_00: This is my style.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: It's like...
37:20
SPEAKER_02: which is what I did with my novel.
37:23
SPEAKER_02: Now I'm going to self-publish it,
37:25
SPEAKER_02: but I just put it out there as an extra publication because I have other
37:30
SPEAKER_02: publications going on,
37:31
SPEAKER_02: on Substack.
37:33
SPEAKER_02: So I did not worry much about it,
37:35
SPEAKER_02: you know,
37:36
SPEAKER_02: whatever,
37:36
SPEAKER_02: if it works,
37:37
SPEAKER_02: if it works,
37:37
SPEAKER_02: if it doesn't,
37:38
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
37:39
SPEAKER_02: who cares?
37:40
SPEAKER_02: But, I mean, obviously, your approach is way better than mine.
37:45
But...
37:52
It's such a testament to,
37:54
like,
37:54
you get out of it what you put into it.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, oh, it's so hard to put all that into it, you know?
38:02
SPEAKER_01: But it does yield results when you do.
38:05
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
38:09
SPEAKER_02: So, okay.
38:10
SPEAKER_02: So what does the future hold for Anna now?
38:17
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
38:17
SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: I think it's like the first time in maybe like
38:26
years where I am just so neutral and settled and like my I just
38:31
got married in
38:32
September we just bought our first house in congrats thank you
38:36
in December um it's
38:38
been like the first bit of time where I'm just like okay I can
38:43
just breathe for a
38:44
second and so I'm just trying to like be in this space uh for a
38:48
little bit and see
38:49
SPEAKER_01: what comes next um
38:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:53
SPEAKER_02: So, OK, I know I don't want to bore you with all my questions.
38:58
SPEAKER_02: I'm just I'm just excited to talk to you.
39:00
SPEAKER_02: But I want to talk about since you're a solopreneur, I'm assuming.
39:07
SPEAKER_02: What is the future of solopreneurship?
39:10
SPEAKER_02: And the reason I ask this because the majority of people on Substack,
39:15
SPEAKER_02: they kind of dabble with solopreneurship in one way or another.
39:19
SPEAKER_02: Either they're full-time solopreneurs or they have it as a side gig.
39:23
SPEAKER_02: And all the reports that I've been reading saying,
39:27
SPEAKER_02: you know,
39:28
the creator economy is booming and there's actually more focus
39:33
on personal brand
39:34
SPEAKER_02: now rather than getting like revenues from brand deals or others.
39:43
SPEAKER_02: Do you think the movement of solopreneurs is here to stay?
39:47
Is it sustainable or eventually all of us are going to get
39:49
tired of it and go back
39:51
SPEAKER_02: to soul sucking corporate job?
39:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm biased because I
39:58
been doing this since I had a job but I can't imagine we would
40:02
ever get tired of
40:03
this like if you found what you love to do and you're getting
40:07
paid to do it there's
40:09
no greater joy I don't know I mean obviously I get tired we
40:12
think we all get tired
40:13
we all have moments of burnout but I genuinely wake up and I'm
40:18
like I can't believe
40:19
SPEAKER_01: I get to do this work and I can't believe I'm getting paid for it and I
40:24
SPEAKER_01: It feels like the ultimate freedom.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: And I would say to anyone, like, it's so possible to make it happen.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: It's so possible.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: If you're putting yourself,
40:33
SPEAKER_01: I think we have to put ourselves out there,
40:35
SPEAKER_01: though,
40:35
SPEAKER_01: for people to know that we exist and that what we offer is available.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: And that's the price, you know, it can feel hard to do that.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: But oh, my God, it's the best feeling ever.
40:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:48
SPEAKER_02: Well,
40:48
the reason I ask is there's not many of us out there like we
40:52
think there's a lot of
40:52
SPEAKER_02: us out there because we are all in these communities.
40:55
SPEAKER_02: But I'm here in the suburbs like of Washington, D.C.
40:58
SPEAKER_02: and in Maryland.
41:00
SPEAKER_02: And very few people do what I do,
41:04
which and it's sometimes hard for me to explain or for them to
41:08
fathom the idea that
41:10
I run my own business online,
41:11
and it's a legitimate business,
41:14
and I don't have to go anywhere.
41:15
SPEAKER_02: I can do it in my pajamas.
41:17
SPEAKER_02: I don't have a bus, whatever.
41:19
And how do you...
41:22
What is the measure of success,
41:25
financial success for a solopreneur?
41:27
SPEAKER_02: I know kind of the coveted number is 10K of recurring income a month,
41:33
SPEAKER_02: which I guess equals to six figures.
41:36
SPEAKER_02: But if...
41:38
if i want to look at okay this is it i'm making it what is the
41:44
figure that i should
41:45
look at because looking at the household medium income in the
41:49
united states uh just
41:51
because we're both based in the u.s i think that would be you
41:56
know i would base it
41:57
SPEAKER_02: on that so what would what do you think is the benchmark for success
42:02
SPEAKER_01: It's so relative.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: I remember even just a few years ago,
42:07
SPEAKER_01: my number of what success looks like is so much different from now.
42:12
SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's just because of inflation.
42:13
But I think the older I get and the more that I this is this is
42:19
what gets me.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: the more I am surrounded by people who are making a lot of money,
42:26
SPEAKER_01: the more I'm like,
42:27
SPEAKER_01: wow,
42:28
SPEAKER_01: like they're making this much money.
42:30
SPEAKER_01: But then it makes me think, wow, if they're making it, I can do that too.
42:35
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
42:38
SPEAKER_01: I noticed that a lot of my clients,
42:40
SPEAKER_01: like we'll get to a point where,
42:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:43
they're sharing with me just the ins and outs of their business
42:47
and what they're
42:47
SPEAKER_01: doing.
42:47
SPEAKER_01: And I'm so inspired.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, wow.
42:50
this is like you've created something incredible and I think
42:55
the bench so what's
42:56
the benchmark the benchmark of success I don't know I think
43:00
that benchmark is
43:01
always being raised for me I feel like I'm always like it's
43:04
like a video game and
43:06
I'm always trying to get to the next level once I reach the
43:09
first yeah um I don't I
43:12
SPEAKER_01: wish I could give you like a really good answer but I feel like
43:18
SPEAKER_02: It can be arranged.
43:19
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
43:19
SPEAKER_02: it doesn't have to be like,
43:20
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
43:21
SPEAKER_02: when do we move from that's an actually serious,
43:24
SPEAKER_02: legitimate business than a side hustle?
43:28
SPEAKER_01: I think if it's like fully supporting you.
43:31
Like if you are fully,
43:33
you're paying all of your bills by your own accord.
43:36
Like to me,
43:37
I think that is like a huge marker of like,
43:40
wow,
43:40
yeah,
43:40
you've done it.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: And if you've done that consistently, 100%.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
43:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
43:49
SPEAKER_02: I think is when do you draw the line between the side hustle and that's a
43:56
SPEAKER_02: legitimate thing that you would take for life that you would never do?
44:01
SPEAKER_02: you know, ever again.
44:03
SPEAKER_02: Because I've seen other creators who,
44:07
some of them at least are going back to full-time jobs because
44:11
they're just tired
44:12
SPEAKER_02: of the hustle.
44:13
So,
44:15
well,
44:15
I mean,
44:15
sometimes in moments of self-doubt,
44:17
like,
44:18
do I have to do this or no?
44:21
SPEAKER_01: I have been through that so many times.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: I can't even tell you.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we could talk for hours.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: where I thought to myself, should I write my resume?
44:34
SPEAKER_01: Like, do I need to, maybe I should go get a interesting job.
44:37
Like there've been moments where I'm like,
44:39
I don't know if I should keep doing this.
44:41
SPEAKER_01: And I will tell you, it always turns around every single time.
44:46
SPEAKER_01: It's like,
44:46
there is just this natural flow and rhythm of entrepreneurship
44:50
where you're going
44:51
SPEAKER_01: to have great months and you're going to have lower months.
44:54
And that doesn't,
44:55
it took me so long to realize that does not mean that you're
44:59
failing.
44:59
It does not mean that you've done anything wrong,
45:02
but that is just the nature of things.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: And I think as we get further into it, we learn two things.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: We learn one, how to prepare ourselves for that financially.
45:13
Like we learn what to do and how to put money aside and how to
45:16
like actually just
45:17
SPEAKER_01: keep ourselves afloat.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: But two, we also can weather the emotional storm that comes.
45:24
SPEAKER_01: Because now,
45:24
SPEAKER_01: whenever I have moments or times where I'm like,
45:28
SPEAKER_01: oh,
45:28
SPEAKER_01: this is a little uncomfortable,
45:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
45:30
SPEAKER_01: hmm,
45:30
SPEAKER_01: how am I going to make it through this next period or this next phase?
45:34
SPEAKER_01: It's like, I don't give in to my mind anymore.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't ever let myself go to this,
45:40
SPEAKER_01: are we going to do something else or should I just throw in the towel?
45:43
SPEAKER_01: Because I know now, because I've been through it enough.
45:46
SPEAKER_01: Don't listen to your mind.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: Your mind is deceptive and it will play lots of tricks on you.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: If you absolutely love what you're doing, we just have to keep going.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: We just have to keep going.
45:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:58
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
45:59
And I think for me is to surround yourself with people who do
46:04
similar things that
46:05
SPEAKER_02: are successful.
46:06
So I actually went to ChatGPT and I because ChatGPT like knows
46:10
everything about me now.
46:12
SPEAKER_02: So I asked ChatGPT,
46:14
SPEAKER_02: like,
46:14
tell me people who show me people who are doing similar things
46:17
to what I do,
46:18
SPEAKER_02: but they're more successful.
46:20
SPEAKER_02: And tell me what strategies they're doing that I'm not doing.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: Love.
46:25
and it gave me this actually i'm gonna write like a linkedin
46:27
post about it and tag
46:29
the people and i follow most of these people and they follow me
46:31
back and to say
46:34
that it is so cool actually yeah uh i'll send you the prompt
46:40
but uh and it gave me
46:43
an idea and i was like i was i was kind of like venting to chat
46:47
gpt like what are
46:48
SPEAKER_02: they doing that i'm not doing show me
46:53
but like also what if it's just we have to have patience like
46:59
what if we sometimes
47:00
I get I think about this too I'm like I just asked my husband
47:03
that the other day
47:04
I'm like what do I need to be doing like how do I get to the
47:07
next phase of this and
47:09
I finally got to this point where I'm like I honestly don't
47:12
know if there's like
47:14
I'm sure there's other things I can do but part of it I think
47:17
too is patience like
47:19
SPEAKER_00: yeah
47:20
SPEAKER_01: Like it just takes time.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
47:23
SPEAKER_01: And I think there is this window of luck that if we're really lucky,
47:29
SPEAKER_01: there is this window of opportunity.
47:31
And if we can recognize when it is and just like shoot our way
47:35
through it,
47:37
SPEAKER_01: that's when I think everything shifts too.
47:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
47:40
SPEAKER_02: And also surround yourself with people who do crazy stuff like us.
47:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
47:48
The reality is people who do crazy stuff like us,
47:51
they're not necessarily in your neighborhood.
47:54
SPEAKER_02: They tend to be online.
47:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
47:57
SPEAKER_02: That's where you find them.
47:58
And so I'm like realizing more and more that being part of
48:02
private communities is
48:05
SPEAKER_02: extremely important because you're with like,
48:10
SPEAKER_02: it's like a mastermind,
48:11
SPEAKER_02: right?
48:12
SPEAKER_02: With your like-minded people.
48:14
And the older I get,
48:16
the more I realize it is surround yourself with people better
48:20
than you.
48:21
SPEAKER_02: And doing stuff that you want to do.
48:23
And now you're most likely to find them in a private online
48:27
community that you
48:28
SPEAKER_02: probably have to pay for,
48:29
SPEAKER_02: which is fine.
48:31
SPEAKER_01: It's a good investment.
48:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:34
But also the way that you're doing this right now,
48:37
like interviewing people.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: It's such a great way to also...
48:45
SPEAKER_01: connect and talk with people who are in this work.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: It's great.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I do, I have a podcast too.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: I actually, I, we're on a pause right now.
48:56
SPEAKER_01: We're going to start up again soon,
48:57
but that was one of my goals for this upcoming season of our
49:00
podcast is like,
49:01
SPEAKER_01: I want to bring on people that scare me.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, wow, you guys have really done it.
49:10
SPEAKER_02: I do that all the time.
49:12
SPEAKER_02: Right.
49:12
SPEAKER_02: It's like, it's inspiring.
49:13
SPEAKER_02: It's cool.
49:14
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I pay for my own mastermind with my podcast.
49:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
49:20
Because I lose money on it because I pay for an editor and
49:23
subscription services
49:24
SPEAKER_02: and all of that.
49:26
But I get to chat and share my conversation like this with some
49:31
of the greatest
49:33
SPEAKER_02: minds,
49:33
SPEAKER_02: at least in the industry that I am in.
49:36
SPEAKER_02: and the connections that I build and all of that.
49:39
SPEAKER_02: Plus my background is in journalism, so I love to ask questions.
49:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're great at it.
49:45
SPEAKER_01: I was telling my clients,
49:46
SPEAKER_01: one of my clients this other day,
49:48
SPEAKER_01: he has a podcast and I was saying to him,
49:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
49:51
SPEAKER_01: yes,
49:51
SPEAKER_01: this exact thing,
49:52
bring on people who you want to learn from because that just
49:55
makes you genuinely
49:57
SPEAKER_01: ask questions that you're curious about knowing.
49:59
You're going to ask all the right questions without even trying
50:03
because you're just
50:03
SPEAKER_01: like,
50:04
SPEAKER_01: you just want to know.
50:05
SPEAKER_01: And then as your audience, we're listening.
50:08
SPEAKER_01: We're like,
50:08
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
50:08
you're asking the really good questions because we're all
50:12
sitting on the same side
50:12
SPEAKER_01: of the table as you are.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: So there's definitely something to it for sure.
50:17
SPEAKER_02: I think the last thing I want to ask,
50:19
SPEAKER_02: because it's been almost an hour of me annoying you with my question.
50:24
SPEAKER_02: Not at all.
50:27
SPEAKER_02: But AI, where do you stand on AI and how often do you use it?
50:33
And,
50:34
you know,
50:34
let's hear your AI spiel or rant or whatever you want to call
50:40
it.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: I am an AI stan.
50:44
SPEAKER_01: I think it's been...
50:47
SPEAKER_01: I've used it a lot.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: I use it for my work all the time.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: It's completely transformed the way that I work with my clients.
50:53
SPEAKER_01: How so?
50:54
Because it allows me to help them translate their voice into
51:00
content so much faster.
51:02
SPEAKER_01: And because I can do that, like I can help them more.
51:07
SPEAKER_01: Like I can actually, a lot of, I'll give you an example of how I use it.
51:10
SPEAKER_01: But most of the time, what I'll do with clients is we'll get on the phone
51:14
We'll talk for an hour and I'm prompting them with questions
51:17
similar as to like
51:18
SPEAKER_01: what you're doing with me right now.
51:19
SPEAKER_01: Like I kind of act as the journalist and I'm asking them questions.
51:22
I'm probing them on just going deeper and like talking about
51:27
their process or whatever it is.
51:29
I'll take that transcript and I'll have AI help me organize
51:34
everything and put them
51:35
SPEAKER_01: into outlines and like structures for like,
51:38
SPEAKER_01: here's 10 Substack notes.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: And of course you have to like tweak and modify them.
51:43
But at least it gives me the scaffolding for different pieces
51:47
of content.
51:48
SPEAKER_01: And it's coming from their voice.
51:50
SPEAKER_01: Like it's 100% their ideas.
51:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm not asking chat to create or generate ideas.
51:56
SPEAKER_01: The ideas are there.
51:57
SPEAKER_01: It's just what it's helping me with is organizing them.
52:00
SPEAKER_01: And that has been massive.
52:02
SPEAKER_01: It's helped me so much.
52:03
SPEAKER_01: So I think in that realm, it's helped me a lot.
52:05
SPEAKER_01: I use AI to help me edit all of my writing.
52:10
SPEAKER_01: And I'm...
52:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it has saved me so much money.
52:15
SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine having to work that closely with an editor.
52:19
SPEAKER_01: It would have been really hard.
52:25
SPEAKER_01: What are your favorite tools?
52:28
SPEAKER_01: I use chat.
52:28
SPEAKER_01: GPT the most.
52:30
SPEAKER_01: Because I also do feel like at this point,
52:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
52:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure all of them get to this level where it knows you.
52:38
SPEAKER_01: It has a memory of what you've shared.
52:40
SPEAKER_01: in it.
52:41
And then I have all my projects labeled for different projects
52:45
that I'm working on.
52:46
SPEAKER_01: Do you use it too?
52:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:48
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I use a mix of everything.
52:51
SPEAKER_02: ChatGPT, Cloud, Gemini, Google Notebook.
52:56
SPEAKER_02: That's for perplexity.
52:59
SPEAKER_02: That's for content.
53:00
SPEAKER_02: But I do video editing as well with AI.
53:04
SPEAKER_02: I use Riverside, all my clips.
53:08
SPEAKER_02: Just AI picks the hook for me.
53:09
SPEAKER_02: I used to pay someone to do that.
53:11
SPEAKER_02: I feel bad about saying this, but I don't need that person.
53:15
SPEAKER_02: I can hire somebody else from the money that I saved.
53:18
But now AI picks all the social media clips,
53:22
picks the hook and everything.
53:24
SPEAKER_02: And I just have to approve, maybe slightly edit it, but that's it.
53:28
I can create like,
53:30
from our conversation,
53:31
I can create like 20 clips in 10 minutes.
53:36
uh for free well i just have to pay for the subscription tool
53:39
but that's it i know
53:41
it's pretty incredible yeah and let's see but uh anna this this
53:46
been wonderful i
53:47
think i i learned a lot uh i'm sure we have uh live now 38
53:53
people so that's not bad
53:54
uh and uh i'm sure people will probably watch the the replay
54:01
and um thank you for
54:02
SPEAKER_02: sharing all your tips and
54:05
and secrets and I wish you all the best of luck of your book
54:09
and if you want to
54:10
tell the audience where they can find the book and when it's
54:13
going to be published
54:14
the title you know you can do your plug here if you know the
54:19
floor is yours if you
54:20
SPEAKER_01: can tell them about your book yeah
54:22
SPEAKER_01: So my book,
54:24
SPEAKER_01: Lonely Girl,
54:25
SPEAKER_01: tentative,
54:25
SPEAKER_01: tentative date that is coming out on Amazon is August 22nd in print.
54:30
SPEAKER_01: But if you want to,
54:31
SPEAKER_01: you know,
54:32
SPEAKER_01: if you're curious,
54:34
SPEAKER_01: you can also go to my Substack and read the first few chapters too.
54:37
SPEAKER_01: If you want to get a little preview of what you can expect.
54:40
SPEAKER_01: And then, yeah, I'm a personal brand strategist.
54:42
I work with entrepreneurs all the time on helping them tell
54:45
their story and post
54:46
SPEAKER_01: with more confidence.
54:47
SPEAKER_01: And you can find me at my website.
54:49
It's just through my Substack where you can go to
54:51
AnnaVittoni.com.
54:53
SPEAKER_01: And I, yeah, it's been great.
54:55
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Natasha.
54:56
SPEAKER_01: This was fun.
54:57
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Anna.
54:58
SPEAKER_02: And please stay in touch.
54:59
SPEAKER_02: And thank you everyone for joining us today.
55:03
SPEAKER_02: And until we meet again.
55:06
SPEAKER_02: Bye.
55:07
SPEAKER_02: Ciao, ciao.