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Could a Single Hair Bolster Case? Idaho Student Murders · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Did the killer and the
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Idaho student murders actually go online and brag? Now that
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: that probable cause? Affidavid has established that the alleged killer,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Brian Coburger, had stalked out the murder house at least
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: and I emphasized at least twelve times before the murder,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: dating all the way back to June. Was that before
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: he even started school in his PhD program, he was
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: already staking them out. We know he had picked his
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: victims by then based on what cops are saying, but
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: why them? What was the connection? As a desperate search
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: for the murder weapon goes off, we are waiting holding
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: our breaths for the next Bobshell to draw. I mean it,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: See Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and serious XM one eleven.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Who is this guy? Take a listen to our friends
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: k XI. The last time the Arms family saw him
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: was when Coburger was working as a security guard at
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: a local school a couple of years back. When we
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: talked to him there, everything seeming you know, normal, he
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: was polite and everything. It was very, very weird to
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: hear this stuff. Washington State University confirms he was a
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: PhD student at the time of the alleged murder, and
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Tom adds he was smart, very intelligent, and then you know,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: he would explain things in like a really odd way
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: that had to be really sophisticated way of explaining stuff.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: There is still so much more to explain and understand
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: in this investigation. It's unsettling for Tom to think about
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: how this person who they knew for years could have
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: killed these four students. Just been saying, you know, why
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: is it that everyone talks about how normal the guy
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: was way back when you know they said that about BTK.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: We find out that Bundy charmed people, very charming. Scott
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Peterson sumed, like the All American guy, didn't he We're
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: hearing the same thing now, but can that possibly be true?
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: With me in All Star panel to make sense of
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: what we know right now? But first I want to
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: go out to Fox senior correspondent Laura Ingle. Lauren, thank
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: you for being with us. You know I was thinking
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: about it before we took to the air. If he
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: had started staking out the four students back in June
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: his classes at the PhD program, had they even started. Yeah,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: you know, he was in that area as far when
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: we look out the records of when he moved there,
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: when the car was registered, how it was registered, it
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: appears as though he was there. And the other thing
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: about the key piece that we heard on page four
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: of the probable Cause Affidavid not to jump ahead, but
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: the idea that one of the surviving roommates heard somebody
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: in the house say it's okay, I'm going to help you.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: I just want to remind us of a story that
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: we heard very early on when Brian Coburger was first arrested,
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: and we didn't have a name, and when we heard
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: that name Brian Coburger, everybody pulled up this old newspaper
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: article from Pennsylvania when he was a part time security
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: guard at a school district, and how was he was
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: a part of the super heroic saving of a woman
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: who had an asthma attack and he and another school
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: guard got down on the ground and helped her, and
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: they said Brian helped to save her life. And I
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: just wanted to draw that of just I don't know,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know if he said those words, if that
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: was a recording of some kind on her TikTok, But
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: it was just I thought, you know, an interesting connection
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: that he was a private security guarden, an effort at
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: all of the criminology that he took, and the applying
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: to be an intern with the Pullman Police Department that
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: there is now that there is a record of him
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: being on the ground trying to help a woman, you know,
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: running to get an aeed to save a woman's life.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: So I know that we had talked a little bit
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: about that on previous shows, but it is certainly erie. Yeah,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: you know what, Laura Angle, It really is because you
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: see the dichotomy of someone that could have been really
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: a hero in this world and has done the exact
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: opposite and turned into the devil. And of course, let
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: me just say again before I am pilloried online, everyone
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: is presumed innocent until they're proved and guilty, and that
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: goes for Brian Coburger as well. You know, doctor Bethany
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Marshall joining us a high profile psychoanalyst joining us out
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: of Beverly Hills at doctor Bethany Marshall MD dot com
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany. That's really interesting what Laura Ingle told us,
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: how he had gone so far as to save someone's
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: life being written up and lauded for it and then
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: somehow took a really dark turn. But my initial reaction was,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: it's the show. There's a whole drama going on. It's
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Coburgers the world and we're all just living in it. Yeah,
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: if you think about one of the associated features of sociopathy,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: which is which what you just said means nothing to me.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: I don't even know what you're talking about, the one
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: of the what of the what? Sociopaths and serial killers
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: are always sociopaths. And if Brian Koburger did this, we
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: were going to guess that this is a first killing
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: in what was intended to be a long life of
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: serial killing. Okay, so let's hold that in our minds
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: that he is possibly a serial killer and he got
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: caught on his first offense. So what do we know
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: about men like this? And yes, they're mostly men. They
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: are grandios, they are glib, but they are charming. But
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: it's a fin veneer. It's a superficial veneer of grandiosity,
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: meaning that they want to be the center of attention.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: They want to be the star, They want everybody to
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: look up to them. They want to feel like they
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: are saving the world. But when I say it, says
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: thin veneer. They'll only act this way until you disagree
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: with him, and then the veneer cracks and they become vicious,
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: they become mean, and they go on the attack. So
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: I think about the little boy he's saved with the
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: asthma attack. I can imagine the parents calling him, asking
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: him over to dinner, him getting cars, you know, maybe
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: asked to go on a local TV show. I'm just
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: going to make keen this up. And then he revels
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: in the glory of being so important. But what if
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: one reporter or a parent says, yeah, but you know what,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: you cracked the boy's ribs when you were doing CPR
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: or you know, I think you should have called by
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: any one one instead of trying to see the boy yourself.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Then he would have turned on them. Well, I'm also
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: wondering if that has anything to do with the way
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: he picked his victims. Straight out to Chris mcdunna and
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: joining me, director at the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: detective Chris, who I found, by the way on his
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: YouTube channel, The Interview Room. Chris, I'm jumping off of
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: what doctor Bethany just said and then I'm going to
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: get back into what everybody wants to hear about Joe Scott,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: C C. Moore, Del Carson, the nuts and bowls of
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: how this case is going to be proven or how
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: it can be dismantled by a savvy defense attorney. And yes,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: it can be done. Chris mcdunna jumping off what doctor
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Bethany just said. I've been asked over and over and over,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: what's the motive? Number One, state doesn't have to prove motive. Okay,
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: we're not clairvoyant. We don't know what's going on in
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: his head. Number Two, it does help a jury to
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: have a motive, so the killings makes sense to them.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Now motive Bethany was describing a scenario where someone who
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: was a hero could quickly make an about face. We know,
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Chris McDonough that there had been occasions where Coburger had
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: been asked to refrain from creeping out women at bars.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: We know that he bragged to a classmate, I could
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: go to pretty much any bar or restaurant and have
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: any lady I want. He actually said that. Okay, let
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: that sink in for just a moment. Do you think
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: there's a possibility. You know, he was doing all the
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: study with felons, violent felons about how did you pick
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: your victims? How did you approach your victims? And a
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: lot more. Let's even creepier. Do you think somehow he
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: had been at a bar or a restaurant and one
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: of these young girls had ignored him or didn't respond
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: to his advances, and that is how he started following them,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: because he would actually ask women at bars, I mean
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: jack and said how much would this creepy out? If
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: a guy came up and said what's your address? I
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: would run for the hills. It's fine seene a monster,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: I mean for sure, no question about that. I mean,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: how about hey, can I buy you a diet coo?
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know something like that. Every time I throw
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: a line to one of the twins to use on
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: their love objects, they they tell me how horrible they are.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know what a good pickup line would be.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: I suggested to one of the twins to say how
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: was your New Year? And they doubled over, laughing that
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: they could never say how was your New Year? To somebody?
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: So I'm not good at that. So Chris McDonough, what
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: about it, you know, Nancy. The fact that it's not
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: an obvious motive, that's you know, right on the surface here.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: And the fact that we talked about this on your
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: show earlier, where you know he's gonna He treated this
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: killing us almost it was as if it was an
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: event his life, one of his creepy experiments. Yes, oh,
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Chris Waite, you just gave me a thought. Hold on, ye,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: you know how he would ask all the violent felons, murderers, rapists,
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: child rapists, what was going through your mind? How did
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: you feel during the murder or during the rape. I
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: wonder if he was doing this to see how it
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: really did feel, what it was really like. I mean,
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: this whole thing was over it. I'm sure Joe just
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: got Dale cars. You're gonna have something to say about
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: this over in sixteen minutes. Based on the timing when
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: he pulled up and when he left, it was almost clinical.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: In and out. There was no right, there was no theft.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: He just went in, did the killing and laughed. Chris McDonough,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: how's that? Yeah? And he and he presented himself in
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: such a coolheaded, chameleon type of way. Evident of the
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: fact that we have you know this information allegedly that
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: he says, I'm here to help you. So this guy, allegedly,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: if he is the sushpect, which you know he's been arrested,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: he is that guy that if of somebody and the
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: dog can keep me honest here, if somebody pushes him away,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: he's going to hold a grudge for quite some time.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: So in my mind, my question has been how long
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: has he been holding this grudge? And that those women
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: were they the receivers of that anger? Good good thought.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: And I want to follow up with Laura Ingle. Laura Ingle,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: Senior correspondent, Fox News. Um, Laura, you were so incredible
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: on Fox News last night. I just every time you
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: start talking, it completely changes the course of my questioning.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: I hope you know that, which is a good thing
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: because it's always something new that you're gonna say. I
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: want to follow up on what Chris said. And guys,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: remember how many times do I have to tell you this?
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Del Carson and Joe Scott Morgan and cecmore brilliant genetic genealogists.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: By the way, we're not having tea at High Grove
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: with King Charles and Camilla. Okay, jump in, don't jump
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: in quite yet. Wait, Laura, Laura, you're gonna light in
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: this still, You're gonna like this? Okay? If he had
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: met them all right at some point being you know,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: getting a coffee and say hey, do you live around here?
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: As she goes, well, I'm not going to say, because
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: that's a curseword. I gave it up cursing get lost.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: I'll put it in an ice way. This he was
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: staking them out in June, Laura. So were the girls
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: already there? Did they live there over the summer? That's
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: a great question. I think that we assume that some
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: of them did, but I don't know if we have
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: those records that shows that. But you're right, the cell
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: phone tower information about how many times he had been back. Yeah,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: But I also want to fass I also want to
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: fass forward really quick because I thought about this last night.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Oh here she goes, train out of control. You know
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: how we've been watching how you know there was a
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: there's a direct line of path from his apartment and
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Pullman to the apartment in or to the rental home
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: in Moscow, Idaho, And then he takes this crazy path
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: home where it goes down and around and he's obviously
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: trying to you know, take a different route. But we've all,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: i think, been on the same panel talking about Potus Dulos.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: It was a case that we covered where a strange
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: husband murdered his wife of five children and had a
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: mother of five children, and all along the way he
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: was dumping items. So where are the bloody clothes, the shoes,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: the mask, obviously, the knife, anything that he had, the
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: duffel bag that he might have brought to change into clothes,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: anything of that sort. I'm curious now in the forward
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: part of the investigation of you know, were there any
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: cameras that picked him up going somewhere? Where did he
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: dump those things? I know that we've been talking about
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: how he dumped some garbage once he got to Pennsylvania,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: But did he do anything in that long roundabout way
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: from the victim's residence back to Pullman because he took
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: that if you look at the map that's in the affidavit.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: And that is why I was Laura Ingalls is a
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: better reporter on her sick bed, then guys just say,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: you know, she said COVID and you know, more facts
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: and I don't mean institutional facts about this case that
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: we've learned from the beginning. I mean, like, what's happening
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: right now? That's an incredible thought. Okay, this means something,
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Dell Carson, because I'm getting chills. Look that important. Can
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: I just introduce you Dell Carson, trial lawyer out of Jacksonville.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna get it in and this is a good part.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Former FBI and former cop in Miami. Date at Dell
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Carson Law dot com. Okay, go Dell. You got an
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: eye witness of him being in the property, you have
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: his DNA, you have a number of slaughtered victims. Having
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: a knife isn't like crying to find a gun where
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: you can connect the bullet through teche markings to the
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: actual firearm. You find them in this position possession. This
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: is a nice It can't be exactly in joke and
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: correct you on this, It can't be exactly determined that
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: that was the knife unless there's DNA on it. Later.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, and I'll tell you why. Joe Carson
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: and I've had it out with so many forensic dentists
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: on this exact point. Let's do what you just said. Joe.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University, host
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: of a new hit series Bodybags, with Joe Scott Morgan
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: on iHeart just got same theory applies to forensic dentistry
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: as it does with this knife. Flesh is flexible and
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: you can't really It's like trying to get a teeth
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: mark in jello. Ain't gonna happen. I mean, unless you've
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: got some really crazy set of teeth. Then occasionally I've
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: seen it be very convincing, but still you can't. One
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: of the problems with We're not going to go down
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: this path too far, says you. I'll drive this train
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: wherever I want to, young man, but somebody's getting sassy, Jackie.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: You can't quantify bite marks. That's one of the problems
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: in forensics. Now why do you say it like that
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: when I said it was like biting into jello? But
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: go ahead, professor, Well, thank you. We can't. You can't
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: quantify it. And the same the same applies to a
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: knife wound. You can examine it, you can compare it,
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: and you say it's close to Here's one thing that
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: I find very interesting and something that we do in
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: the mortgage that people might not be aware of. Even
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: with knife wounds prior to the things that will do
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: our full body X rays. And this is kind of
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: key here because this knife was used allegedly multiple times, right,
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: So every time you're striking with this knife, there is
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: a potential that the structural integrity of the knife is
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: being compromised. It's wearing down and depended upon how well
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: the blade is made, it can chip and one of
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: the things we look for in these X rays that
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: we do are little metal fragments. Now, you can't do
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: it ballistically, but what you can do, and this is
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: really cool, is that if you can recover one of
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: those chips, you can do a metallurgical analysis on that chip.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: And what that means is the chemistry behind the creation
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: of that blade is unique to that particular manufacturer. Okay, well,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: let me just understand what you're saying. Are you saying
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: a knife, use of a knife and a murderer? Can
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: you use tiny microscopic leave excuse me, tiny microscopic pieces
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: of metal in the wound? Yes, it can. Have you
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: ever seen that happen? Yes? I have. How often have
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: you seen that happen? Infrequently? You mean rarely? Okay, because
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott I hear what you're saying, and I do
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: think it can happen. And as you were saying that,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: the worst the quality of the knife, the more likely
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: it will happen. I've never had a case for a
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: knife left any type of metallurgy behind in a wound.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: But I do see how theoretically it can happen. Yeah, tips,
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: tips of knives break off very frequently. A tip breaks off. Yeah,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: but I don't know that it's left in the in
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: the wound. Sure it is, Yeah, Oh yeah it is.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: It's it's left and bone. Yeah, that's a good point.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: That's a good point. Yeah, it happens. It happens with great,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: great frequency. So back to what Laura Ingle brought up.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Where in the hay is the murder Weapon a Fox
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  Speaker 1: I lose this guest, I'm going to circle back to
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: the murder Weapon. I've just got to go to chief
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: genetic genealogist Peer and Bonnano Labs CEC more again, you
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: know what dummy down for me. I'm just a j D.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not a genetic genealogist, and you're bringing back memories,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: happy memories for me, sad memories for medical examiners in
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: crime lab personnel to go through every single line of
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: their report and make them speak English that I can
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: understand as is Shakespearean English major CEC. They need more DNA. Now,
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: do I think the case is strong? Yes? I do.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: I think case it is incredibly strong. But that's it.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: I can just see a Johnny Cochran move God rest
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: his soul. He was my co waker at Court TV
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Cochrane and Grace. I can see somebody like him coming
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: in and going what out of a blood bath like this?
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: And you're telling me the only DNA linking back to
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: the defendant is a little epiphelial skin cells on the
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: snap on the knife hilt. Really, and you're gonna send
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: my guy to the death penalty over that? Oh? H
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: n oh, that is what is going to happen. I'm
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: telling you. I'm telling you right now, unless somehow they
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: can find some other DNA. Yeah, I agree with you, Nancy.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: They could argue that someone else transported that knife sheath
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: to the crime scene, or they could argue this CCO, Lord,
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: I don't want to give them any ideas. What if
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: they argued, yeah, he went to a knife and gun
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: show and he looked at a lot of knife and
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: he opened them up and looked at them and snapped
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: him back and put him back on the display, then
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: of course i'd have to dig up an if a
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: gun show that was in that area. But that said,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: there's a million ways they could counter that one. A
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: little bit of DNA for sure. So I think we know,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: based on the eyewitness DM that he was not totally
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: covered up. She was able to see his eyebrows, and
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: we are told that he was wearing a mask that
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: covered his mouth and his nose. Well, that sounds like
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: the kind of masks we've been wearing with COVID for
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: the last three years. And it also might explain, by
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: the way, why she wasn't thinking this was somebody who
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: had done something terrible in the house. You know, those
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: kids are used to seeing people wear masks. It's been
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: really normalized over the last three years, and these are
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: young kids. So anyway, was his hair covered you've got
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: a full head of hair. Did that guy walk in
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: there not fully suited up? If so, I wouldn't be
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: the least bit surprised if there is some hair evidence
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: left at that scene. You know, Cecymore, I'm going to
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: charge you for all the paper that I use if
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: you would laugh, if you could see all the notes
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: I take furiously whenever you start talking, I'm like, I'm
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: running out. I'm using the back pages of things that
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: twins did in school in the fifth grade. For Pete's sake,
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: that is so smart. Okay, we don't know anything about
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: us head being covered, did we, Laura Engele, I have
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: not heard anything about the head being covered. And one
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: of the questions I had for the family, the attorney
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: of the Gonzalvas family, who I spoke to Sunday, I asked,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: you know, have you talked to DM have you talked
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: to Dylan? They said that they have spoken to her,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: that they wouldn't tell me what that conversation was for
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: obvious reasons, for personal reasons. But you know, we don't
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: know what more she said about what she saw. You know,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: when I first heard of the story, didn't we all
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: sort of think that whoever did this must have been
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: dressed like a ninja, and mebe even wearing goggle for
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: the sake of not leaving your DNA. But to your
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: point there, there just has to be more the bedsheets,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: the comfort or the staircase, the door handle. I'm thinking
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: about hair. And I've got to ask Jackie, why are
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: you holding up a snus a ski mask? Didn't she
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: say he had a ski Nobody ever said he wore
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: a ski mask, and anybody he had a mask covering
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: his nose and mouth. I haven't heard anything about ski mask.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: That's how facts gets totally distorted. Has anybody said ski
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: mask beside Jackie sitting right there, who just cooked it
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: up in her head? No, No, I heard. You've had
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: way too many Duncan donut cup cups of coffee. Jackie,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: what dale ski mask for? And I will tell you
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: it's in the car, as Joe Morgan will tell you.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: That's where the evidence is. And as soon as they
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: find but one of the victims blood in that car,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: that's what they need. That is what they need. Yes, Hey, ccmore,
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: I got off track with Jackie's ski mask allegation. What
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: were you saying? Back to the hair. Yes, so the hair.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: You know, you used to not be able to get
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: DNA from rootless hair, but now we can thanks to
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: the brilliant doctor ed Green from Santa Cruz, and I've
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: helped on two cases recently where all we had was
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: a tiny piece of rootless hair. You mean mitochondrial DNA
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: won't that work? Mitochondrial? Yes, but you can actually now
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: get autozomal DNA. Whooa, whoa white? What did you just
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: call it? What did you call it? Autozomal DNA? That's
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: the type of DNA autozomal Yeah, I'm gonna throw that
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: at Joe Scott's see if I can stuff him autozomal
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: he's probably googling it right now. Go ahead. It's the
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: type of DNA you get from both sides of your family,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: from all of your grandparents, great grandparents. It's much more
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: unique than mitochondrial DNA. Oh okay, And you're telling me
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: I could get autosomal DNA from a hair without a nucleus,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: and it's more exact than just mitochondrial DNA, which you
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: can get from a hair without a nucleus that only
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: goes to you to mother. Correct, right, mitochondrial DNA there
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: can be thousands of people, tens of thousands of people
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: who have the exact same signature. But no one's going
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: to have your exact same autosomal DNA signature except for
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: a twin. That's why I call her brilliant. Hey, Joe Scott,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: are you through giggling autosomble yet? Yes? Okay, guys, I'm
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: just filling Joe Scott's leg. He's just an incredible friends
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: professor at Jacksonville State. Joe Scott, can we just and
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: everybody jump in? Okay? You know you shirted pipe down,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnaugh. You know I've got some ideas. I've got
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: some ideas. Natty, I'm waiting, all right, Joe Scott, if
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: he could just drop one hair, one hair? Did you
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: hear what Ccymore said, if we could just find one
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: hair and all that mess of a crime scene, one hair,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: or as Dale Carson pointed out, one speck blood in
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: that elantra. Just Scott, how are we going to do this?
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Look Look to the hands, Look to the hands, Nancy,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: because this is key. We've made a big deal over
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: the last few weeks about the examination of these victim's
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: hands at the Morgue Remember they bag the hands, which
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: is something that we normally do, all right, but when
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: this occurs, When this occurs and you have individuals that
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: are fighting back, remember we've got documented defense wounds. They
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: might be grabbing at the head. And if they do,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: and plus if there's blood on the victim's hands, and
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: everybody knows how tacky blood is and sticky, it's amazing.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: It's amazing what you will find contain not just beneath
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: the fingernails and those are you know, you can really
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: harvest a lot out of those, but also just stuck
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: to the palms of the hands and the backs of
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: the hands. They very well, one of these kids very
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: well may have pulled out a root hair with a
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: root intact as well, you know, to Cecy's point about
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: the autosomal DNA, yeah, I mean, and some of this
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: hair might be fractured. You never know. But that's why
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: they have gone over these bodies with a fine tooth comb, Nancy,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: and they have recovered every bit of trace evidence I'm
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: hoping they have at the morgue. And they applied a
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: team to this that did nothing but this. These clothes,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: the clothes of the kids we were taking care of
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: very well. They were sent to the crime lab. Everything
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: was documented, and I can't you know, we could spend
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: two shows just talking about the examination that they're going
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: to do on these clothing alone for trace evidence and
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: extracting anything they can that might be DNA. Rich, Okay,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: I want to hear what Chris mcdonna's idea is. So
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Nancy on the on the sheath, I want to go
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: back to the sheath for a moment if we can. Okay,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: it's laying next to Maddie. Yeah, buy your leg. You
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: notice there's no conversation in the alpha. David, I've had
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: many judges asked me, is there anything else belonging to
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: anybody else on this item? I e. Cross, you know, blood,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. No, your honor, it looks like
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: it's a single source DNA. So here's my thought. That
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: scene was a horror house. Why is there not blood
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: on this sheet? And I would submit to you if
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: it was, that would have been put into the affidavit.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: And that's why hold on, hold on, hold on Christmas,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: Donna say that again, very slowly. Sure, so the sheath
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: where we know there's single source DNA on the snap
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: from a male and then they've now massed that, you know,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: through family members. But what we're not hearing is cross
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: you know, contamination from the scene itself. I e. If
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: he drops this and he's stabbing, there's blood going everywhe
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: and I would submit to you if it ends up
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: right next to that victim, there is blood on that sheet.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: But we're not hearing about that. So my thinking is,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: did this guy bring this post homicide and place it
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: there as part of a staging activity. No, he didn't
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: have time. He didn't have time to do that, guys. Okay, okay, no, no, no,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnah, I want to hear everything, guys. This is
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: how cases are fine tuned. They're honed by I remember
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: talking to my best friend in the DA's office about cases,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: talking to my investigator, working the evidence through, seeing what
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: would work, what wouldn't like what you just heard mcdonna say,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: that would be a fantastic theory to put to a jury.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: But yet we know he was only in there for
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: twenty minutes. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Two things very quickly.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Anybody jump in Laura Engele. We've heard a lot about
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Dylan DM as she is called, and they probably cause affidavit.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: How how could it be? Everybody says that he walked
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: right by, Luring didn't say her. I have a theory
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: on that, Laura, and that theory is that she ducked
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: back in her door and had the door cracked and
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: saw him go by. Would that work with the evidence
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: as we know it? It could certainly. And I mean
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: when you read the alphadavit, it doesn't say she was
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: standing in the doorway, you know, in front of the kitchen.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: It doesn't give us that detail, just says that she
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: did open the door, and it says three things very
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: distinct sound and clues that we have from Dm Dylan,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: the roommate that you heard, who she thought was Kaylee
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: saying there's someone here. Then she heard the whimpering and
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: crying sounds and a male voice saying it's okay, I'm
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: going to help you. And then that third and final
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: time she opens the door, she sees the figure dressed
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: in black with the mask and the bushy eyebrows, and
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: then says she locks the door. One of the other things,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: I want to go back to the sheets just really quick,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: because you had said at the beginning of the show.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: We've wondered if Brian Coburger got involved with discussions online
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: on Facebook groups and on Reddit and on all these things.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: But there was a very specific thing that somebody said
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: that a lot of people are saying could probably be
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Brian Coburger. He wrote on a Facebook page that was
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: titled University of Idaho Murder's Facebook discussion when he was
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: going under Papa Rogers or the other name. And this
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: is before the probable cause affidavit, and he says one
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: of the evidence of the evidence release, the murder weapon
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: has been consistent as a large fixed blade knife. This
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: leads me to believe they found the sheath. We didn't
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: know about the time. Yeah, we did not know about it.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: But what that's a leak from the investigation is where
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: that's coming from. You can't believe that they knew that
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: less that was him bragging online and doctor Bethany in
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: a nutshell, wouldn't that fit exactly with the personality characteristics
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: that you observed, Absolutely, Nancy, that would absolutely fit with
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: his personality. He was inserting himself into everything online forums,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: saving a life, creeping on women in bars, and you know,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: we were talking about what's along that route between his
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: home and the victim's home, and what nobody mentioned was
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: other victims that maybe that was a very common route
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: for him, and maybe there are other potential victims that
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: were along that route, so that not only would he
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: have been shedding clothing evidence, but maybe he was stalking
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: other people as well. I mean, serial killers don't just
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: stalk one person. This is the first in an intended
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: long line of serial killings, and so I think we
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: have to add that into our discussion. J Scott, A
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: lot has been made to whether a quadruple homicide could
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: be affected in sixteen minutes. I think it wasn't Jackie,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: wasn't it sixteen minutes? Laura, wasn't it sixteen minutes? Okay,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: what about it? Jess Scott. Yeah. My thought is that
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: the individual that perpetrated something like this would have to
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: have a familiarity with the environment to move that quickly
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: through this because this is dirty, dirty work, and it
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: is labor intensive. I hate to put it in those terms,
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: but it truly is. The individual would have to move
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: with stealth, They would have to move with purpose, that
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: would have to know where the victims are in order
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: to facilitate this and they'd have to be prepared showing up.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, yeah, it's possible sixteen minutes. Certainly,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: I know somebody in the certainly people in the military
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: that are trained at this sort of thing could do
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: it probably under that time. But you know, you're talking
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: about college kids, you're not talking about enemy combatants here,
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: and so yeah, and if he had familiarity with this environment,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: I think that's possible. Well, then his terrify aclalgal might
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: be there already. If he had been in the home before. Well,
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: my thought, my thought about this, Nancy, I'm wondering if
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: he had not been going in there in that house
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: when other people were not there, and maybe nesting in
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: that house. That's why I think that it's really interesting
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: if the cops went in there and looked in the
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: closets to see if there was any touch DNA left behind,
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: or if this guy had been having some kind of
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: massptry fantasies in those closets, just hanging out when no
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: one else. When you say massumtory fantasies, nobody as a word.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: When I say it, everybody goes, why would you say
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: that that's gross? There's no evidence of that. But you
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: in Mesany talk about it all the time. When I
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: say this, oh I oh no, why didn't she say that? Okay? Okay.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: The other possibility, Nancy, is that I like the use
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: of Joe Scott Morgan's word nesting. I'd never heard that before,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: but maybe he was also nesting at night when the
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: kids were sleeping. I mean, he he did that work
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: so quickly sixteen minutes. I'm not a crime scene investigator.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: I'm just like, how do you kill four people in
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: sixteen minutes? Well? Hold on, Chris McDonough has been at
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: the saying, Chris, isn't it true that from the outside
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: looking in fuelok, in every window, you can easily spot
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: the layout of the house. Absolutely, Nancy, And we talked
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: about this on your show many times, where this guy
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: is such a mechanical existence and he's taken all of
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: this time to kind of, you know, set the stage
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: like Joe's talking about. And that's where that cinder block
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: in the back window behind the house that we spoke
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: about just doesn't look right. That thing is that was
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: just out of place. U. One other thing on the
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: evidence that I don't think nobody's talking about yet is
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: after the incident if he's gone out and you know,
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: just move the items in various different locations. That air
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: filter in that car is going to be critical to
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: take because you're able to get pollens from the different
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: type of environments. Trap him in that air filter and
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Joe talk about this for days, but then bring a
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: botanist in and see if those environments are consistent with
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: those pollens. That is an incredible idea. Oh gosh, that's
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: such a good idea. And an a PC guy come
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: in and check the in the house. They did you
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: know that you said they had a what kind of guy?
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: HVAC and air conditioning. There's one more big piece of
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: evidence that no one's really you know, diving into, and
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: that's the shoe print in the hallway that they recovered
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: or noticed. They enhanced it with a meadow black, which
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: is it's a protein. It reacts with the proteins and blood.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: So it's really clear in the after David if in
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: fact the footprint was left in blood. But they do
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: have this identified as coming from a van style shoe
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: and it's a diamond pattern. It looks like it. I
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: don't know if it's a heel strike or toad strike.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: But if he's transferring blood off of the soul of
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: that shoe and it's creating a print, that's very significant.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: And all of these items, you know, we're talking about knives,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: we're talking about shoes, all these things. It doesn't take
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: forensics to track this down. This is shoe leather on
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: the part of the cops going out and just trying
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: to determine did he own these things? Is there a
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: purchase history with these things? Vans are very specific and
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: I know a lot of college kids, have my college
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: kids that I teach at Jacksonville State where but you
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: know that significant is it something that he owned? And
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: the pattern on that shoe is distinctive to him depended
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: upon the wear pattern. As you can see, there is
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: so much evidence to sift through and so far always
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: seeing is a problem caused affidavit? What will come next?
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: We wait as the evidence unfolds. Nancy Gray's signing off,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: good bye, fend