Latest / 6 Ps in AI Pods (AI6P) / 🗣️ AISW #120: Cheyenne Dominguez, USA-based business leadership consultant

Transcript

🗣️ AISW #120: Cheyenne Dominguez, USA-based business leadership consultant · 6 Ps in AI Pods (AI6P)

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Hi, everyone. This is Karen Smiley. Welcome to 6Ps in AI Pods.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: This post is part of our AI 6P interview series on AI software and wetware. Our guests share
0:14
SPEAKER_00: their experiences with using AI and how they feel about AI using their data and content.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm delighted to welcome Cheyenne Dominguez from the USA as my guest today
0:24
SPEAKER_01: on AI, software and wetware.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: Cheyenne, thank you so much for joining me on this interview.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Please tell us about yourself, who you are and what you do.
0:33
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Karen.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me.
0:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm Cheyennes Dominguez and I'm the founder of Mavens spelled M-A-I-V-E-N-S
0:41
SPEAKER_02: And it's a community and a newsletter to help non-techie women build their confidence with AI.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: I host a monthly AI themed book club, networking conversations.
0:52
SPEAKER_02: We have prompt parties all basically to help.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: make ai feel more social and more human and collaborative and less intimidating
1:02
SPEAKER_02: for those like me who are non-techie my background is in business i'm
1:06
SPEAKER_02: a business consultant and i do a lot of community building
1:10
SPEAKER_02: so i personally approach ai really through the lens
1:13
SPEAKER_02: of people communicating just how we're using it in everyday life as opposed
1:20
SPEAKER_02: to someone who has a background in coding or engineering and
1:25
SPEAKER_02: What really pulled me into this space was really just seeing how many of
1:29
SPEAKER_02: the many many smart amazing women I know didn't feel part
1:35
SPEAKER_02: of any particular community or space related to ai so I felt compelled
1:41
SPEAKER_02: to start something where we could be a community and talk about this and share ideas
1:46
SPEAKER_01: in a human way yeah I think it's great that you started that it's one thing
1:50
SPEAKER_01: to notice that there's a problem and it's another thing to say well
1:53
SPEAKER_01: I can do something about that.
1:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm trying in my own little space of the internet.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: That's great.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: So tell us a little bit about your level
2:02
SPEAKER_01: of experience with AI and machine learning
2:05
SPEAKER_01: and analytics whether you use it professionally
2:08
SPEAKER_01: or personally
2:09
SPEAKER_01: or if you've ever studied
2:10
SPEAKER_01: the technologies at any way.
2:12
SPEAKER_02: So I've not studied it
2:14
SPEAKER_02: in any way
2:15
SPEAKER_02: what I would call myself is
2:18
SPEAKER_02: An early-ish adopter of technology really throughout my professional career.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm very curious about it, but I am not an engineer.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: I'm not a data scientist.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: And I think maybe that's part of why my perspective resonates with a lot of women.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: I would also call myself a heavy user of AI or maybe a power user.
2:42
SPEAKER_02: That's a term I'm hearing now more recently.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: So I use Claude.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: I use perplexity.
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SPEAKER_02: I use chat gpt the three of those check most boxes for me and I use it almost daily
2:54
SPEAKER_02: for things like brainstorming outlining editing strategic thinking content
3:00
SPEAKER_02: development event planning I do a lot of research with it as well
3:05
SPEAKER_02: so I pay really close attention to how AI is changing in
3:10
SPEAKER_02: the business landscape leadership professional spaces and I pay attention to that
3:17
SPEAKER_02: because
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SPEAKER_02: I think there are a lot of women like me who don't work in tech,
3:22
SPEAKER_02: but we still want to understand how the technology is reshaping our workplaces
3:30
SPEAKER_02: and our homes.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: So I read a lot of business news, investment news.
3:35
SPEAKER_02: I watch market trends.
3:36
SPEAKER_02: I watch CNBC.
3:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of a nerd that way.
3:39
SPEAKER_02: I watch where AI investment in the financial markets is taking place.
3:44
SPEAKER_02: So I really see my role as a little bit of a translator.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: and a guide, but not necessarily with any kind of tech background.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: I'm really looking at where AI fits into our home life, our everyday work life.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: That sounds great.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: Can you share a specific story with our audience on how
4:02
SPEAKER_01: you've used one of these tools that has AI features?
4:05
SPEAKER_01: I'd like to hear your thoughts on how well the AI features of those tools work
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SPEAKER_01: for you or didn't?
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SPEAKER_01: Basically what went well and what didn't go so well?
4:15
SPEAKER_02: It's been a lot of trial and error because I haven't had any training.
4:20
SPEAKER_02: So I have figured out that those three tools, like I said, check a lot of the boxes for me.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: I think one of the simplest and easiest to understand examples is
4:28
SPEAKER_02: the weekly newsletter and the community I run.
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SPEAKER_02: AI has dramatically accelerated the creative and strategic side of what I do.
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SPEAKER_02: So for example, I might start with a rough idea for my weekly newsletter, but I'll use AI to
4:45
SPEAKER_02: help me brainstorm different angles from following the news like i shared
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SPEAKER_02: for example at the time we're recording this on the news yesterday
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SPEAKER_02: and today it was all about anthropic going public soon and launching their ipo and
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SPEAKER_02: so i'll look at okay this is a great opportunity for newsletter what are
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SPEAKER_02: the different sort of angles that i could approach this story from is it
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SPEAKER_02: about investing in ai is it
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SPEAKER_02: How many AI companies have gone public?
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SPEAKER_02: Who's going to go first?
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SPEAKER_02: Is it the race?
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SPEAKER_02: Anthropic versus open AI?
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SPEAKER_02: So I'll look at all the different angles around that story that I might be able to run with.
5:24
SPEAKER_02: And then I also use it to just help me organize my ideas.
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SPEAKER_02: That might take me to the place of, okay,
5:29
SPEAKER_02: actually,
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SPEAKER_02: this might be three different stories now that I've brainstormed so much, right?
5:34
SPEAKER_02: So it'll help me organize that.
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SPEAKER_02: I test headlines,
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SPEAKER_02: I run my analytics,
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SPEAKER_02: look at my analytics,
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SPEAKER_02: my past open rates of my newsletters and emails and engagement rates and try to look
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SPEAKER_02: for trends that I can see, okay, this is what's resonating most.
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SPEAKER_02: It's this type of approach or this type of story, a how to or a why or a guide.
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SPEAKER_02: So I use it on a daily basis in that way.
6:01
SPEAKER_02: And then especially for research, perplexity in particular has saved me many hours.
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SPEAKER_02: I think I've learned to guide my AI research companion
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SPEAKER_02: in a really positive way that's really helpful for me.
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SPEAKER_02: So if I'm looking for additional sources to cite,
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SPEAKER_02: it just really helps me speed up that research process.
6:25
SPEAKER_02: With all of that, I'm very intentional that AI doesn't replace my voice.
6:31
SPEAKER_02: I try to share a lot of stories,
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SPEAKER_02: my own personal stories,
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SPEAKER_02: my own personal experiences, positive and negative feelings I'm having about AI.
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SPEAKER_02: I really try to weave that in so that I'm intentional that AI doesn't replace really
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SPEAKER_00: the very human
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SPEAKER_00: component of connecting with my community i've also used it for event planning
6:55
SPEAKER_02: for travel research for coming up with different activity ideas
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SPEAKER_02: for different groups i run and for my book club so it's worked for me it's been
7:05
SPEAKER_02: so helpful for me really on
7:06
SPEAKER_02: a daily basis i think what hasn't worked well is i learned pretty quickly that
7:12
SPEAKER_02: if you're using ai to help you write it can sound very generic
7:15
SPEAKER_02: You can pretty quickly see when something is written by AI these days and
7:22
SPEAKER_02: when it sounds also just kind of detached from having any kind of human
7:28
SPEAKER_02: vulnerability or imperfections as well.
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SPEAKER_02: So I think authenticities will always just remain really important to me.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_01: I think it's interesting to think about whether or not we can really tell
7:41
SPEAKER_01: when something is written by AI tools.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's...
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SPEAKER_01: been evolving a lot we had one chapter in the book that you also wrote
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SPEAKER_01: a chapter for yes by karen spinner and she was saying
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SPEAKER_01: about how they've done these tests and people can't always tell
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SPEAKER_01: when something was written by ai but one thing i think is interesting is on
7:58
SPEAKER_01: the flip side people were starting to write more like large language models
8:05
SPEAKER_01: because they see where they're writing
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SPEAKER_01: and there's unconsciously i think internalizing it and so
8:09
SPEAKER_01: we're right on each other a lot of feedback loops but that's one
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SPEAKER_02: that i think yes i really expected yeah it's becoming very circular it's like what's
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SPEAKER_02: going in and what's coming out and which came first so getting
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SPEAKER_01: a little bit muddied yeah but to your point about the authenticity
8:27
SPEAKER_01: and human voice it's one thing that i think you do well and i think it's something
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SPEAKER_01: that people can recognize still even
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SPEAKER_01: if they don't know something was this ai generated
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SPEAKER_01: there are still some things that ai doesn't simulate well and that authenticity
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SPEAKER_01: that sense of individual stories that nobody
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SPEAKER_01: but you could have written those are things that a tool's not going to do yeah
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SPEAKER_02: and it's funny because i think the word authenticity spent such a buzzword
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SPEAKER_02: in recent years on social media and showing up as your authentic self
9:00
SPEAKER_02: on instagram i almost feel like it's started becoming an overused word
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SPEAKER_02: but now it's almost like
9:05
SPEAKER_02: It's such an important word.
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SPEAKER_02: It really is right back to being probably more important than ever.
9:10
SPEAKER_02: It's definitely important to me.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: It sounds like you do make good use of AI tools for some things.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: Are there any things that you avoid using AI tools for?
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SPEAKER_01: And if so,
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SPEAKER_01: can you share an example of when you would avoid it and why you would choose not
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SPEAKER_01: to use AI tools?
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_02: So one of the areas I've just personally pulled back a bit from
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SPEAKER_02: is this whole image and video trend that we've seen go viral the last couple
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SPEAKER_02: of years you know ask ai to turn me into this type of character and turn me into
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SPEAKER_02: that type of character and before you know it you've generated 20 versions
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SPEAKER_02: of yourself as a cartoon and 20 videos of yourself doing something silly
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SPEAKER_02: and i can totally understand how those things
10:01
SPEAKER_02: go viral you know they're fun and cute and novel and fantastical right
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SPEAKER_02: so we're seeing waves of people where they're generating these fantasy portraits
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SPEAKER_02: of themselves or action figures of themselves or cinematic avatars of themselves
10:19
SPEAKER_02: or there were all types of different artistic styles that had their viral moment
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SPEAKER_02: that were trending and i totally see why people find it fun and entertaining but
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SPEAKER_02: as i have personally
10:29
SPEAKER_02: learned more about AI.
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SPEAKER_02: I've read conflicting data on the amount of energy use that is required for
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SPEAKER_02: those types of things, particularly image and video, probably video generation even worse. So
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SPEAKER_02: it has left me personally feeling uncomfortable.
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SPEAKER_02: I feel like I'm being wasteful by spending first
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SPEAKER_02: my own time doing that but just the amount potential energy output that I'm using so
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SPEAKER_02: How can I use it to be more productive,
11:02
SPEAKER_02: to research,
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SPEAKER_02: to just value my time and solve any kind of meaningful problem or challenge
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SPEAKER_02: that I'm having as opposed to jumping on the new trendy viral video bandwagon.
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SPEAKER_02: So that's a line for me personally that I've just kind of come to and decided not to cross.
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SPEAKER_01: Have you ever experimented with any of the tools for music creation?
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SPEAKER_02: i have for about 60 seconds yeah i think i went to i think i might even done
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SPEAKER_02: a newsletter on this about a year ago i went to a couple of sites really out
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SPEAKER_02: of curiosity to see how easy it was to generate music
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SPEAKER_02: and it was just amazing you know i gave it a prompt in 10 seconds out came
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SPEAKER_02: a 30 second song based on what i described and it's really mind-boggling
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SPEAKER_02: But that's the extent of what I've tried to create with AI in the music space.
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SPEAKER_01: One concern that has come up with respect to these AI
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SPEAKER_01: and machine learning systems is where they get the data and the content and
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SPEAKER_01: the works that they train on.
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SPEAKER_01: They will often use data that people put into online systems or they published online.
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SPEAKER_01: Companies are not always very transparent about how they intend to use our data
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SPEAKER_01: when we signed up and not people have gotten surprised
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SPEAKER_01: to find out their information has been used.
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SPEAKER_01: One proposal that's come up is that they should be required
12:22
SPEAKER_01: to do what some people call the three C's rule,
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SPEAKER_01: which is to get consent and to give people credit and to compensate them for the use
12:31
SPEAKER_01: of their work in AI.
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SPEAKER_01: And other people say that they feel like it's okay as long as it's for
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SPEAKER_01: the greater good, which is kind of a separate question.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering how you feel about companies that use people's works
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SPEAKER_01: for training their AI and machine learning systems and tools.
12:46
SPEAKER_02: I think in this case,
12:48
SPEAKER_02: the greater good, that might be rather subjective, but I think it's a no brainer.
12:53
SPEAKER_02: I think transparency and consent are only going to become more increasingly important.
13:00
SPEAKER_02: You know,
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SPEAKER_02: every artist, writer,
13:02
SPEAKER_02: photographer, every type of creator, of course they want their work protected.
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SPEAKER_02: We all do, whatever type of work we create, whatever our output is.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think the vast majority are going to feel very unhappy and uneasy
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SPEAKER_02: about our work, their work.
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know that I consider myself an artist,
13:21
SPEAKER_02: but I certainly create many things as a writer,
13:24
SPEAKER_02: but how anyone could feel really comfortable that
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SPEAKER_02: our works being absorbed into an ai system without clear permission or compensation
13:35
SPEAKER_02: or credit just feels completely wrong in my mind so it's my hope
13:40
SPEAKER_02: that ai companies move
13:42
SPEAKER_02: toward clearer consent models more transparent disclosure around how training data
13:50
SPEAKER_02: is gathered how it's used and
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SPEAKER_02: I think it's going to affect more and more ordinary everyday people
13:58
SPEAKER_02: and not just our famous artists and public figures but it's going to become
14:04
SPEAKER_02: the average social media user it's going to become students it's going
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SPEAKER_02: to become business professionals pretty much anyone who is publishing content online
14:14
SPEAKER_02: which is almost all of us because that is part of how we're marketing and networking
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SPEAKER_02: and building our brands and relationships so it's
14:24
SPEAKER_02: going to affect almost everyone eventually.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: I think that the challenge here is that the innovation is just moving
14:30
SPEAKER_02: so incredibly fast while public understanding and regulation especially always seem
14:35
SPEAKER_02: to be struggling to keep pace.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: You mentioned writing a newsletter, and that's where we met through writing our newsletters.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: But a lot of people that I talk to don't realize that there is a setting in Substack
14:45
SPEAKER_01: in our newslatters for whether or not we tell Substack to allow AI tools
14:50
SPEAKER_01: to train on the content of our newslettres.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering where you aware of the setting and what do you have it set to?
14:58
SPEAKER_01: I don't remember what I have it set to.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: That's very interesting.
15:01
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what it's set to right now, but I know I have toggled it on and off more than once.
15:06
SPEAKER_02: That tells you I have conflicting feelings about these things
15:09
SPEAKER_02: as I'm sure many people do,
15:11
SPEAKER_02: but I hope that all creative platforms give all users a choice.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: I think it's like everything else in life, right?
15:18
SPEAKER_01: There's a trade-off and it's a trade-off between protecting your newsletter
15:22
SPEAKER_01: and then on the other side what they call discoverability because
15:27
SPEAKER_01: if someone is going to an ai tool to search for information then visibility
15:32
SPEAKER_01: of your ideas in there or better or worse that's where a lot of people are going and
15:37
SPEAKER_01: so do you want your work surface there or not i hear a lot of conflicting
15:42
SPEAKER_02: thoughts about it i'm not sure if it's on or off right now but i know
15:45
SPEAKER_02: that i have been in there and i've pondered that and weighed the pros and cons
15:49
SPEAKER_02: and it might depend on the day how i'm feeling yeah but at least
15:55
SPEAKER_01: with Substack they have the setting they provide that some people i've talked
15:59
SPEAKER_01: to have been kind of upset that the default was that it was on to allow it
16:04
SPEAKER_01: when they first create their newsletter so you have to know it's there going
16:07
SPEAKER_01: to turn it off
16:08
SPEAKER_01: but at least there's some transparency that you as
16:10
SPEAKER_01: a newsletter publisher have some control for the tools
16:14
SPEAKER_01: that you've used chat gbt perplexity
16:17
SPEAKER_01: and such do you feel like they have been transparent with you as a user about
16:23
SPEAKER_01: where they got the data that they're using
16:25
SPEAKER_02: to train their tool gosh well i don't doubt that it's in there buried inside
16:32
SPEAKER_02: the terms and conditions so i'm not claiming that they haven't
16:37
SPEAKER_02: shared that with me but it's certainly not something that's easy
16:40
SPEAKER_02: to understand that's easy to find we all have to go looking
16:43
SPEAKER_02: for it you know it's buried in legalese i think
16:48
SPEAKER_02: that many people like me probably i don't necessarily know
16:54
SPEAKER_02: that we have meaningful opt-out choices right it's either you're opting into all
16:59
SPEAKER_02: of this or you can't use it at all you don't have access and again that's
17:05
SPEAKER_02: a huge trade-off
17:06
SPEAKER_02: when the world seems to be moving at the pace it's moving and moving
17:12
SPEAKER_02: through this ai transformation to be completely left out certainly doesn't feel like
17:18
SPEAKER_02: the right answer but also to not fully understand the terms
17:23
SPEAKER_02: and conditions doesn't feel like the right answer either so i think that most
17:28
SPEAKER_02: of us probably don't fully understand how our data is being collected analyzed used
17:33
SPEAKER_02: for training
17:35
SPEAKER_02: But at the same time, I do think that public awareness is increasing.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: It's growing in the media.
17:42
SPEAKER_02: More people are asking questions,
17:44
SPEAKER_02: ownership, privacy, consent, like we talked about, our digital identities.
17:49
SPEAKER_02: But I think it's just too complicated, buried in the legalese.
17:55
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not an attorney.
17:58
SPEAKER_02: It would be nice if we could participate and have a much just simpler understanding.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've talked with a couple of people including an attorney.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: She was based in Ireland and she's
18:10
SPEAKER_01: another part of Europe now but her point was that it's not really informed consent
18:14
SPEAKER_01: if they write 20 pages of legalese you have to read it on your phone
18:19
SPEAKER_02: right scrolling for scrolling and scrolling and
18:24
SPEAKER_02: exactly and then the trade-off is that oh i just don't use this at all
18:30
SPEAKER_02: so yeah and that's really pretty much any app we all have
18:34
SPEAKER_02: on our phones we automatically opted into the terms and conditions
18:37
SPEAKER_02: that are many many pages deep there have been studies
18:42
SPEAKER_01: that very few people read it it varies a bit by age bracket but over 90%
18:47
SPEAKER_01: of people generally don't read them but who can fault people for not reading them
18:51
SPEAKER_01: when they really can't understand them anyway you shouldn't have to be
18:54
SPEAKER_02: a lawyer right right right exactly you shouldn't have to be a lawyer
18:58
SPEAKER_02: to understand what you're opting into
19:00
SPEAKER_01: yeah as you said though sometimes the choices you either have to agree to use a tool
19:05
SPEAKER_01: or you simply can't use it in other cases
19:08
SPEAKER_01: for instance it would say government system or something we don't really have
19:11
SPEAKER_01: a choice we have to use it so the whole idea of consent there is kind
19:16
SPEAKER_02: of bogus mm-hmm i think social media is probably the easiest thing for most people
19:25
SPEAKER_02: to relate to right so our photos
19:29
SPEAKER_02: that are posted online,
19:31
SPEAKER_02: the interactions,
19:33
SPEAKER_02: our likes and comments,
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SPEAKER_02: facial recognition,
19:36
SPEAKER_02: our location data on social,
19:39
SPEAKER_02: our browsing habits,
19:41
SPEAKER_02: what we purchase or don't purchase,
19:43
SPEAKER_02: what we scroll past,
19:44
SPEAKER_02: what we slow down on,
19:46
SPEAKER_02: all of those engagement patterns are just increasingly tied to more
19:50
SPEAKER_02: and more sophisticated systems.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: And I think people think about AI as very futuristic, but
19:59
SPEAKER_02: Most of us are we're here we're in it now and most of us are interacting in big ways
20:05
SPEAKER_02: with very powerful ai systems right now
20:09
SPEAKER_02: that are constantly monitoring our advertising our search results our content feeds
20:18
SPEAKER_02: and everything that we interact with so i think we kind
20:22
SPEAKER_02: of expect it we expect it more so if we're going to the airport because we know
20:26
SPEAKER_02: that there is a
20:28
SPEAKER_02: national security element attached to the story that we're told that these things are needed.
20:36
SPEAKER_02: And so we are probably less surprised by it there.
20:41
SPEAKER_02: But I think when it comes to our browsing habits and our social media habits,
20:48
SPEAKER_02: I think people would be just really shocked at how much data
20:53
SPEAKER_02: at how much we are really the product that is being sold out there.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great example.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: And social media for a lot of us is optional.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people I've seen are actually leaving LinkedIn,
21:05
SPEAKER_01: whereas that used to be kind of you had to be there.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: There are some people who run their businesses on Instagram or on one of the other social sites.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: And so when they started claiming more rights to the works that people publish there,
21:20
SPEAKER_01: Some people really felt like they didn't have much of a choice.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: I left some of the subsides because I didn't need them,
21:25
SPEAKER_01: but for a lot of people,
21:26
SPEAKER_01: that's a much harder decision, a much more difficult trade-off.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: I think so, because if whether you're running a business or building a personal brand
21:36
SPEAKER_02: or whatever you're doing your success is dependent upon your marketing
21:41
SPEAKER_02: and marketing has in a large
21:45
SPEAKER_02: now become almost synonymous with social media.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you're not on social media, you're not marketing yourself.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: There's very few other avenues for a lot of people to see you and learn about you
22:01
SPEAKER_02: than social media.
22:02
SPEAKER_02: It's our modern day marketing.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: I think if you're not there, you're not going to be found.
22:08
SPEAKER_02: And so again, the trade-off is do not be found or
22:14
SPEAKER_02: Do you kind of go along with all these terms and conditions and the tracking and all
22:20
SPEAKER_02: of these other things that go along with it?
22:22
SPEAKER_01: Do you know any cases with any social media sites that you use
22:25
SPEAKER_01: where your information has been used for a purpose that you didn't intend?
22:31
SPEAKER_02: So when I think about this,
22:33
SPEAKER_02: I think about when I first started thinking that my phone was listening to me.
22:38
SPEAKER_02: And now I just kind of assume it's listening.
22:41
SPEAKER_02: and i think more of us assume it's listening but i remember first thinking
22:45
SPEAKER_02: about how weird it was like it was probably at least five years ago maybe more than
22:49
SPEAKER_02: that but i started realizing i was seeing ads in my social feeds for things
22:56
SPEAKER_02: that i had had private conversations with either my husband or a friend
23:01
SPEAKER_02: like a trip to the Bahamas and eating a new bathing suit and
23:04
SPEAKER_02: then i'm suddenly getting ads for Ann Taylor's new resort wear line or something
23:09
SPEAKER_02: that was specifically it but things like that
23:12
SPEAKER_02: and just too coincidental right just just too coincidental i can even remember
23:17
SPEAKER_02: joking with some friends about it oh my gosh i think my phone's listening
23:21
SPEAKER_02: because i got an ad for this or that and now it's not a joke i think most of
23:27
SPEAKER_02: the public has had those experiences
23:30
SPEAKER_02: and now realizes that at least some of our behaviors and patterns are being tracked
23:36
SPEAKER_02: and analyzed.
23:37
SPEAKER_02: I guess I wonder if the listening in experience has become a turning point for a lot of people.
23:43
SPEAKER_02: Like how did my phone know that?
23:45
SPEAKER_02: How did my phone know I was talking about that or doing that?
23:49
SPEAKER_02: So this pattern recognition has been around for quite a while.
23:55
SPEAKER_02: It's just now with the power of AI.
23:58
SPEAKER_02: it's just so much more sophisticated and put us on like a rocket ship to
24:05
SPEAKER_02: a new place i don't think people are shocked by it but i don't know
24:09
SPEAKER_02: that they realize how much these systems know about us yeah i'd written
24:13
SPEAKER_01: an article i guess it was a couple years ago now about this there was actually
24:17
SPEAKER_01: a case where apple was found
24:22
SPEAKER_01: guilty basically of allowing siri to use people's information
24:27
SPEAKER_01: when they hadn't given their permission for it to be listened
24:30
SPEAKER_01: to i don't think they sold the original conversations to data brokers
24:36
SPEAKER_01: but they sold information that was derived from it and they got slapped for that
24:40
SPEAKER_01: people might say, oh you're paranoid. Sometimes there are connections that we don't realize
24:44
SPEAKER_01: and that's what it's picking up on and it looks like we're being listened in on but
24:48
SPEAKER_01: in some cases they actually have been listening in violation of various laws
24:53
SPEAKER_01: and also just the mores and their stated principles. Apple has always had this
24:57
SPEAKER_01: reputation for privacy and they lost some of their shine on that one
25:02
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely I think
25:03
SPEAKER_02: it's like
25:05
SPEAKER_02: Don't ask for permission.
25:07
SPEAKER_02: Just hope you don't get caught or ask for forgiveness or just take the fine later.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: Right.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: Oh, so we can't do it.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: What happens if we do it?
25:16
SPEAKER_01: We get fined.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: So we just have to pay to be able to do it.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: Right.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: So it gets turned into a business decision.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: Even I think for some of the scraping of the data that was used for training
25:27
SPEAKER_01: the AI tools, like, okay, yeah, well we're going to do it.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: We're going to get ahead.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: And then when the time comes that we have to pay,
25:34
SPEAKER_01: we already have established our hold on the market and it's a small percentage
25:38
SPEAKER_01: of our revenues and we're not going to worry about it so it becomes
25:42
SPEAKER_01: a business cost instead of a matter of principle yep
25:46
SPEAKER_01: a hundred percent yeah you mentioned traveling and tsa in
25:51
SPEAKER_01: the national security aspect for various reasons i haven't been in an airport now
25:55
SPEAKER_01: for many years but friends who have traveled have told me that the tsa signs do say
26:00
SPEAKER_01: in small print at the bottom that you are allowed to opt out
26:03
SPEAKER_01: of them using ai to do a facial recognition comparison of your id
26:08
SPEAKER_01: to your actual face that's the default now but in small print it says
26:13
SPEAKER_01: that you can't opt out of it a few people have tried
26:15
SPEAKER_01: a few people have said you know what i have enough hassle i don't need
26:20
SPEAKER_01: to take any more risks and so they don't really feel like they can opt out
26:23
SPEAKER_01: but it is there in small print so
26:26
SPEAKER_01: Have you noticed that or have you ever tried to opt out when you've traveled
26:29
SPEAKER_01: or do you just let it go through?
26:31
SPEAKER_02: I just let it go through.
26:32
SPEAKER_02: I've never opted out.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: You know, it already takes so much time in an airport.
26:36
SPEAKER_02: So I can't imagine the additional complication to stepping up to any kind
26:41
SPEAKER_02: of TSA agent or checkpoint and saying, I want to opt out of this.
26:46
SPEAKER_02: I can't even imagine what would be the reality of that.
26:49
SPEAKER_02: How cumbersome, uncomfortable that would feel and what that process would be like that.
26:56
SPEAKER_02: it's probably not pretty you know who knows how well trained they are even
27:00
SPEAKER_02: on someone trying to exercise that choice so no i've never had
27:03
SPEAKER_02: that experience i'm just kind of running through the scenario
27:07
SPEAKER_02: in my mind thinking yeah that does not sound comfortable at all
27:11
SPEAKER_02: but like i shared earlier anyone who's running a small business or building a brand
27:15
SPEAKER_02: or if you're marketing events or if you're trying to network yourself
27:20
SPEAKER_02: or sell any type of product or service
27:24
SPEAKER_02: So much of our marketing ecosystem completely depends on our digital platforms, social media.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: That's where there's visibility.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: That's where there's audience growth.
27:34
SPEAKER_02: That's where revenue is going to come from.
27:37
SPEAKER_02: If you're in business,
27:39
SPEAKER_02: you have to sell something to a customer and that is highly likely to be
27:45
SPEAKER_02: a digital space.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: So there may be these opt out opportunities.
27:53
SPEAKER_02: in the fine print like a TSA perhaps but I think opting out completely can just feel
28:00
SPEAKER_02: so unrealistic professionally economically if you're trying to bring
28:04
SPEAKER_02: in revenues I guess I can see both perspectives right I think what we need
28:09
SPEAKER_02: to wrestle with is a bigger question of like now where do we go
28:12
SPEAKER_02: from here here we are is there a way that we can balance the innovation and
28:18
SPEAKER_02: the positives that we can see through technology the convenience
28:22
SPEAKER_02: Some personalization,
28:24
SPEAKER_02: but can we balance that with privacy, ownership, consent in a meaningful way?
28:30
SPEAKER_02: I don't think that we as a society have quite figured that out yet.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: Do you know of any situations where use of your data,
28:41
SPEAKER_01: your content has created an issue for you,
28:43
SPEAKER_01: like privacy or phishing or loss of income or any example that you know of?
28:50
SPEAKER_02: So I have a friend in Colorado,
28:53
SPEAKER_02: a woman,
28:54
SPEAKER_02: this is an AI specific,
28:56
SPEAKER_02: but she experienced a really disturbing identity theft situation a few years ago.
29:03
SPEAKER_02: And that completely changed how I personally think about personal data and technology.
29:09
SPEAKER_02: So essentially a thief was able to steal her identity,
29:13
SPEAKER_02: but they did it so well that the criminal was able to get a driver's license
29:20
SPEAKER_02: with her criminal photo on it in my friend's name.
29:25
SPEAKER_02: So that means this criminal,
29:28
SPEAKER_02: this woman who was a criminal,
29:29
SPEAKER_02: somehow had enough documentation to represent herself as my friend at the DMV.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: And once she had a driver's license with her criminal photo on it matching my friend's name
29:42
SPEAKER_02: the gates were wide open she was able
29:46
SPEAKER_02: to open new accounts new credit cards i mean it was months and months
29:50
SPEAKER_02: of chaos this was really a traumatic situation
29:54
SPEAKER_02: and i think what was especially unsettling was how difficult it was
29:58
SPEAKER_02: for law enforcement to keep up with it to keep up with what was happening
30:03
SPEAKER_02: the whole situation with law enforcement was painstakingly slow while the
30:11
SPEAKER_02: problem just kept escalating so quickly and so eventually out
30:17
SPEAKER_02: of frustration she took matters into her own hands and so i'm not recommending this
30:22
SPEAKER_02: to anyone but she was able to track the criminals spending activity to
30:29
SPEAKER_02: a luxury hotel where my friend figured out that this criminal was staying
30:35
SPEAKER_02: at she traveled there and was
30:40
SPEAKER_02: somehow incognito she parked herself in the lobby and hid out
30:45
SPEAKER_02: until she eventually identified this
30:48
SPEAKER_02: criminal in the Lobby. She called police there, police came, and they did arrest the criminal
30:54
SPEAKER_02: so she basically became her own private detective. She was working her own crime in real time
31:02
SPEAKER_02: it was very brave thankfully she didn't approach this criminal
31:06
SPEAKER_02: on her own she was hiding out and police did react when going to the hotel
31:12
SPEAKER_02: and arresting the person but the story has stayed with me
31:15
SPEAKER_02: because I think people assume that if something goes wrong digitally or
31:22
SPEAKER_02: with their technology
31:23
SPEAKER_02: that our banking institutions our government institutions our business institutions
31:28
SPEAKER_02: that they're going to be able to quickly step in
31:30
SPEAKER_02: and protect us, and stop it and shut it down. But I think with AI, it's so scary because
31:37
SPEAKER_02: it is moving so fast. It's moving at a far faster speed than our policy work can keep up
31:44
SPEAKER_02: within our regulations that are enforcement groups and teams and enforcement leaders are
31:49
SPEAKER_02: police they can't keep up thieves criminals are able to work at a much faster pace
31:53
SPEAKER_02: than our regulatory and policing work.
31:57
SPEAKER_02: So I think that means
31:59
SPEAKER_02: consumers,
32:00
SPEAKER_02: we just have to be so much more cautious and aware of how much
32:06
SPEAKER_02: and what personal information we do decide to share and how we share it.
32:11
SPEAKER_02: because I think at this point, almost every company out there is using an AI driven system
32:18
SPEAKER_02: in some capacity.
32:19
SPEAKER_02: So we have to be very cautious.
32:22
SPEAKER_02: I don't know that it's possible to completely avoid sharing personal information.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we all have a bank.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: right and they have a lot of our personal information but her situation the fact
32:33
SPEAKER_02: that she had to become her own private investigator in real time on her own case
32:41
SPEAKER_02: and her entire life stopped because of it and she had
32:44
SPEAKER_02: to dedicate this became her life and thankfully it ended positively for her
32:50
SPEAKER_02: but it certainly opened my eyes to how slowly our regulators and enforcers are able
32:56
SPEAKER_02: to help us
32:57
SPEAKER_02: And how realistic or unrealistic that may be for us to think that they can.
33:02
SPEAKER_02: So you said this happened a couple of years ago?
33:05
SPEAKER_02: This happened a few years ago in Colorado, yeah.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean obviously people stealing data and data brokers selling our data
33:12
SPEAKER_01: That's been around for a long time, for decades, long before AI came along
33:16
SPEAKER_01: But what's different I think now is that one
33:20
SPEAKER_01: that some of these AI tools let people create fake documents,
33:23
SPEAKER_01: fake pictures that they can use to try too.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: fake their way into something but the other thing is
33:29
SPEAKER_01: that once our data gets out there and it gets scraped and sold and pulled into
33:34
SPEAKER_01: an ai tool there's almost no way
33:35
SPEAKER_02: to get it back out right that's really scary yeah yeah
33:42
SPEAKER_01: so that's we're all learning how to be more vigilant and more careful
33:45
SPEAKER_01: but what's already out there is done i think it's interesting a lot
33:47
SPEAKER_01: of teenagers young folks are staying away
33:50
SPEAKER_01: from it they're being very much more cautious i think in some cases
33:54
SPEAKER_01: than their parents and i think that's an interesting
33:56
SPEAKER_02: yeah i'm also seeing young people this seems to be a shift to an interest in a lot
34:07
SPEAKER_02: of analog things also and i wonder if this is part of the impetus for that
34:12
SPEAKER_02: that there's could be a resurgence in analog
34:15
SPEAKER_02: and analog music they're saying young people are getting tired
34:19
SPEAKER_02: of not physically owning anything that everything they own is digital right
34:23
SPEAKER_02: the movies and music and
34:25
SPEAKER_02: They have relationships digitally and that they're having some fatigue and
34:31
SPEAKER_02: that there is a growing resurgence around analog experiences,
34:35
SPEAKER_02: whether that's books, movies, music, those types of things, activities.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: yeah i know some musicians are music lovers and they said well we don't really care
34:45
SPEAKER_01: for spotify anymore because of what they're doing to mistreat artists and instead
34:49
SPEAKER_01: of putting their money toward a spotify subscription they're going to see
34:53
SPEAKER_01: a musician perform live in an event and they're buying their cds and their merch at
34:57
SPEAKER_01: the event yeah so that's their way of rebelling i guess yeah and i love that i love
35:03
SPEAKER_02: that just having a very human experience
35:06
SPEAKER_01: Last question and then we can talk about anything else that you want.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: What we're seeing overall across all age groups really,
35:12
SPEAKER_01: public distrust of AI and these tech companies has been growing to some extent.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: Is there any company that you trust and what do you think is
35:21
SPEAKER_01: the most important thing a company would need to do to earn and keep your trust
35:25
SPEAKER_01: if that's even possible?
35:27
SPEAKER_02: I would say I don't know if there's any one company
35:30
SPEAKER_02: that I would say I 100% trust probably not I think that the most important thing is
35:36
SPEAKER_02: that they communicate with us upfront clearly and simply not
35:42
SPEAKER_02: so complicated cumbersome just simple and clear we shouldn't have
35:48
SPEAKER_02: to read 10 20 30 40 page terms and conditions then I feel like we need to hire
35:53
SPEAKER_02: an attorney whether it's an app or a website or
35:57
SPEAKER_02: Buying something at the register just to understand how our engagement data
36:03
SPEAKER_02: when we interact with their company may be used.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: And I think that it should just be straightforward.
36:09
SPEAKER_02: What are you collecting?
36:10
SPEAKER_02: How is it being used?
36:12
SPEAKER_02: And can I opt out?
36:14
SPEAKER_02: Also what happens to it long-term?
36:16
SPEAKER_02: What's the long-term case for this?
36:18
SPEAKER_02: But I think just making privacy settings and consent choices simpler, visible, not buried.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: in legal language is what we would all appreciate and I hope
36:32
SPEAKER_02: that companies could see that that's an opportunity really to build an audience
36:40
SPEAKER_02: to create a loyal customer with people rather than manipulating us
36:45
SPEAKER_02: into being customers but to see us as partners see us as someone maybe they want
36:51
SPEAKER_02: a relationship with rather than someone to be manipulated
36:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great spot.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: I hear from almost everybody that there's a sense that there isn't really anybody
37:03
SPEAKER_01: that we can trust fully,
37:05
SPEAKER_01: but that transparency,
37:06
SPEAKER_01: that communication is maybe not sufficient, but it's necessary.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: I think for us to feel like we can really trust one of these companies
37:15
SPEAKER_01: with our data, with our personal information and with our tools.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: Well, I want to thank you for making time for this interview.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: Is there anything else that you would like to share with our audience?
37:27
SPEAKER_02: So we're recording this in mid 2026.
37:30
SPEAKER_02: I would love to just remind people in the U.S. that November 2026 is an election year.
37:36
SPEAKER_02: It's not a presidential election
37:38
SPEAKER_02: year, and I don't plan to get into politics
37:40
SPEAKER_02: here so I don' t want any of the listeners
37:41
SPEAKER_02: to worry, but we
37:43
SPEAKER_00: typically see lower voter turnout
37:46
SPEAKER_00: in non-presidential election years
37:48
SPEAKER_02: But November 2026 is a great opportunity, I think, for us as voters to
37:56
SPEAKER_02: ask our candidates at the local, state and federal level about AI and their positions on AI. So
38:07
SPEAKER_02: if you only vote in the years as a presidential election maybe consider getting involved this
38:13
SPEAKER_02: year and decide look at how you feel about AI what's important to around AI because there's
38:20
SPEAKER_02: local council races, school boards, county city town races state governors.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: Most of your members of Congress will be up for reelection, just about anyone.
38:31
SPEAKER_02: so regardless of which side of the aisle you're on politically ai is going to impact
38:37
SPEAKER_02: education jobs media or health care cyber security all of our small
38:44
SPEAKER_02: and mid -sized businesses it's
38:46
SPEAKER_02: going to affect our daily lives.
38:47
SPEAKER_02: Yet I think a lot of voters probably have no idea where their candidates stand
38:52
SPEAKER_02: on these issues and even whether they even understand them.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: enough to help be a part of shaping policy in a responsible way.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: So I would just say if you're listening,
39:03
SPEAKER_02: use the next five or six months to learn about your leaders running for office,
39:10
SPEAKER_02: what they do and don't know about AI,
39:12
SPEAKER_02: and use this time to ask them questions about AI because many of the decisions
39:18
SPEAKER_02: that are made over the next few years
39:20
SPEAKER_02: are going to be made by the people who are elected in this cycle
39:24
SPEAKER_02: in november these officials are going to shape how all of us live and work
39:28
SPEAKER_02: for decades to come so it's a great time to get involved and to ask questions
39:33
SPEAKER_02: of your leaders and lastly if you want a totally non-judgmental space to talk
39:39
SPEAKER_02: with other women about ai you can come join us in our mavens monthly book club
39:44
SPEAKER_02: where we read a book and we talk about all the different ai issues
39:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, senior posts about the Mavens Book Club.
39:51
SPEAKER_01: You've covered some really interesting books and interesting topics from the discussions.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: That sounds like a really cool initiative.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: I want to come back to something we mentioned just briefly earlier.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: You wrote a chapter in the book, AI Everywhere Volume 1, How Women Are Changing.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: the world with artificial intelligence.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: And your chapter was on why women must get AI savvy now.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: And I'm wondering,
40:11
SPEAKER_01: within the context of everything that we just said about AI and your concerns,
40:15
SPEAKER_01: what your thoughts are about that and why,
40:17
SPEAKER_01: in spite of all of this,
40:19
SPEAKER_01: it's still important for us to explore it in a way that we feel comfortable with.
40:25
SPEAKER_02: I think regardless of how you feel about AI, whether you're someone who is very cautious or
40:32
SPEAKER_02: you're super optimistic about AI.
40:35
SPEAKER_02: is happening we are in a time of transformation in work at home
40:41
SPEAKER_02: in almost every industry imaginable my hope is that in writing
40:46
SPEAKER_02: the chapter why women must get ai savvy now is not really i don't want women
40:52
SPEAKER_02: listening to think that i'm encouraging that women really need
40:55
SPEAKER_02: to become these huge heavy ai users
40:58
SPEAKER_02: It's really not that.
40:59
SPEAKER_02: What I want is for women to really kind of dial into what's happening and to dial
41:03
SPEAKER_02: into how you feel about AI.
41:05
SPEAKER_02: So if you are anti-AI,
41:08
SPEAKER_02: I might make the case that it's even more important for you to be dialed in
41:12
SPEAKER_02: and learn about what's happening with AI so
41:15
SPEAKER_02: that you can make sure your voice is heard and understood whether it's at the polls
41:20
SPEAKER_02: in November or it's in the office and the leaders that you work with.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: If AI ethics are very important to you, then
41:28
SPEAKER_02: Don't you want a seat at the table at your company in helping to determine what
41:33
SPEAKER_02: the most ethical path to positive AI use would be in your office for your business?
41:38
SPEAKER_02: If you're a business owner, if you're
41:40
SPEAKER_02: a woman who's a businessowner,
41:42
SPEAKER_02: you better believe your competitors are going
41:44
SPEAKER_02: to be using AI whether
41:46
SPEAKER_02: or not you feel good
41:48
SPEAKER_02: bad or indifferent about it.
41:50
SPEAKER_02: So it's important to know
41:51
SPEAKER_02: if your competitors are using ai how does
41:54
SPEAKER_02: that affect how you approach your business how you approach how you sell your
41:57
SPEAKER_02: products and services and engage
41:59
SPEAKER_02: with your customers i just think it's incredible opportunity for women
42:04
SPEAKER_02: and i don't want women to be scared if they don't have a technological
42:07
SPEAKER_02: or engineering or analytical background i want women to know that there is a space
42:13
SPEAKER_02: at the table for everyone so just gotta pull the chair and you're hosting
42:17
SPEAKER_01: the parties
42:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes.
42:19
SPEAKER_02: I'm hosting the parties. Yes.
42:21
SPEAKER_02: And I'm posting the parties,
42:23
SPEAKER_02: absolutely.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: You can bring a chair,
42:24
SPEAKER_02: pull up a chair at a book club to our prompt parties and I love
42:28
SPEAKER_02: to facilitate networking opportunities for women as well.
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SPEAKER_02: That's important to me just to be supportive and help women have
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SPEAKER_02: a safe community space to do that.
42:38
SPEAKER_01: that's awesome well thank you so much Cheyenne I really appreciate you making time for the
42:41
SPEAKER_01: interview it's great to chat with you and um we'll be keeping in touch
42:45
SPEAKER_01: through Substack
42:46
SPEAKER_02: and elsewhere my pleasure thank you så much for having me
42:49
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: About this interview series and newsletter,
42:54
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