Latest / Executive Alliance Podcast / E20: Women in Maryland's Economy
Transcript
- Rebecca Snyder: Welcome everyone. Today in the studio we have Comptroller Brooke Leerman and Danny DePietro, who is the I state data expert in the Comptroller's office. I'm sure there's a more technical way, but welcome Dani DiPietro: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: to both of you to the program. Brooke Lierman: Thank you, it's great to be here. Dani DiPietro: Thank you. Rebecca Snyder: And it is actually it is wonderful to have you both here because the Comptroller's Office has just set forth a new study about the state of women in Maryland's economy. And so I wanted to ask why did you need to do a report? And how does this fit in with the other state of the economy reports that you've been doing? Brooke Lierman: Thank you so much. thanks so much, Rebecca, for all your work and to Executive Alliance for all of its amazing work. I've known you for years now in that role and in other roles, and it's always great to work with you. and a huge thank you to Danny Rebecca Snyder: Thank you. Brooke Lierman: DePetro for her incredible work on this report and so much of our policy research. She really helps us lead the charge, and I so appreciate her. look, women are 51 over 51% of our state population. if women are not Doing well, our state cannot reach its full economic potential. Therefore, I think it really behooves all of us, women and men, to understand what's working for women and what is holding women back from reaching their full potential in our economy. And yet, you know, we looked and we did not see that a state agency had ever conducted a you know comprehensive analysis comparing women's and men's experiences in the economy. And I think it's important for us to produce those. types of findings and these types of reports to understand to ensure that we have a shared understanding that policymakers at all level, business leaders, organization, NGOs, that they all we all have a shared understanding of what the data is and what it means so that we can ensure that every person in the state is reaching their full potential. And that's really a a key part of what we focus on in our agency. When I became Comptroller, we we adopted a new Mission or vision to work in partnership to create a state that is more equitable, more resilient, and more prosperous so that every Marylander can reach their full potential. To do that, we have to understand why we're not reaching our full potential and what some of the challenges are in the way of that. And so, you know, speaking from an economic lens also is part of our role as the, I like to say I'm like the elected CFO of the state of Maryland. So there's the making sure that we We all understand what the barriers are and what the opportunities are. And then, of course, you know, I am the first woman elected comp troller and I understand a lot of these issues on a personal level, right? I'm a working mom, I have two school-age kids, I'm a member of the sandwich generation, right? I have a I have a parent who requires help and care. and so I see a lot of this in my circles as I, you know, go around. The state as well. So we're really excited to produce this report. I don't think of this as a report for women. I think this is an important Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Brooke Lierman: report for all Marylanders to understand. we all need to be ensuring that anybody, no matter their gender, can reach their full potential in Maryland. And we are trying to present and lay out an explanation of what some of the challenges and barriers are for women in particular in this report. Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: And thank you for that. There's so much to unpack. We'll get to to lots of what you referenced, but put it in context for us because this is not a standalone report that comes out of nowhere. You've done a series of reports on different aspects. So tell me why those reports are important to you and what you're finding out about the economy to make us more equitable, resilient and prosperous. Brooke Lierman: Thanks. Yeah. So one of the new initiatives that we started when I became Comptroller was producing economic reports and data, actionable data, right? That could really catalyze policy making at all levels, you know, municipal, county level, state level, and even federal. You know, I think we've shared important data with our federal representatives as well. and the reason we're doing this is because nobody else is, right? We need to. We are uniquely situated To provide this type of information and this type of data to our policymaking partners. And so there had been a void of economic data in the state of Maryland, I think, prior to our undertaking of these reports. And now, I think, you know, if you talk to policymakers, most policymakers who are familiar with our work really enjoy the challenge of understanding what we are seeing and how it impacts. their constituents. you know, we're right next to Washington DC. We have thousands, it feels like, sometimes of think tanks producing you know, so many reports every day on what's happening in our national economy and the challenges and opportunities. But we didn't have that Data at the state level. and so Danny and her team, her mighty team of two, working with our Bureau Dani DiPietro: Yeah. Brooke Lierman: of Revenue estimates, has really, you know, seized the day and, you know, uses both quantitative and qualitative data to produce reports that are accurate, readable, comprehensive, and I think really informative for our policymakers. Our very first one was the State of the Economy report, right? Just a really big Comprehensive look that we released in January 2024. And out of that, we found different ideas that needed, you know, threads that needed to be pulled, Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Brooke Lierman: on why women hadn't returned to work at the same levels in Maryland as they had nationally, for instance. And so we dug in on our child care issues and did a report on child care in the economy, on the importance of immigrants and foreign-born individuals to Maryland's economy, and did a report on immigration and. The economy. And then we looked at housing and the role of housing as the central piece to affordability in Maryland because it is most individuals' most expensive monthly line item is their housing, right? Whether Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Brooke Lierman: they're renting or buying. And now this is another report on you know a certain part of our economy that needs studying and understanding and is unique, and that is the role of women in our economy. So really excited about these reports. We've done numerous other reports as well, but in this series, I think this is a unique opportunity for us to expla examine and explain what's happening in the economy in Maryland. Rebecca Snyder: Well, let's go to that. So Danny, you have been the mastermind of all this quantitative Brooke Lierman: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: and qualitative data. So tell us how you how you approach these reports and what you and a little bit about what you found. Dani DiPietro: Sure, thank you. so I'll just have to give credit up front. We now, as of the last sort of full year, have a data analyst that supports me, which has made things a lot sort of better and and allowed us to dig a lot deeper. but I would say just first wanna elaborate a little bit on one thing the comptroller said, which is is just like the comprehensive nature of these reports. You know, individual agencies and Department of Legislative Services and others in state government and think tanks have, you know, have done a lot of awesome reporting and research, but usually sort of in one sector or one subject area. But given that the Comptroller sits on you know, almost every statewide fiscal board that we have, this like three sixty view is what we really try to To bring through these reports and so our work has, you know, looked like, as the comptroller said, identifying these sort of threads or flashing yellow lights was the original term, in our economy where we feel like, okay, either something looks a little bit concerning or something looks really great. Let's try to understand it better. If it's something concerning, you know, what are the factors? that are driving that trend. I'll give the example of domestic outmigration. we it for four years in a row were the state Maryland ranked in the top ten of states losing the most residents to other states. And so of course that's a concerning trend. And and we dig in and we find that, you know, all the states the Marylanders are moving to have lower cost of housing than Maryland. So then we, you know go down this road and write this housing report. And so I think our process is very much l let the data speak for itself and then just try to better understand it. I think the comp controller touched on this, but a a critical piece of that in addition to the quantitative analysis is that we always spend a ton of time talking to actual Marylanders, whatever sort of the relevant stakeholders are to that that research topic. So in the case of this report, on how women are sort of faring in Maryland's economy. We talked to almost 200 women in seven different sort of round table environments across the state, in every region and representing every sector. And feel like, you know, that's a critical piece of this because data is not perfect, it's usually not completely up to date, and just doesn't always tell the full story, of course. So I think that's something I'm really proud of and I think that's something that makes these reports really unique, is that marriage between the quantitative and qualitative data and and you know adding in this sort of like human lived experience element to what the data is saying. and also being able to sort of point out what the data might be missing, because it doesn't always reflect what we're hearing on the ground. So Rebecca Snyder: So then what are you finding in in the state of of women in the economy? What's holding them back? Because Brooke, earlier you talked about women not participating in the workforce as avidly as men, having childcare issues. th and and I think the theme just feels like and it was kind of gloomy when we previewed this this report, that women just aren't producing, even with higher education levels, you would think that that It's not a parallel. So what did you what is women in the economy, what it how is it going? Dani DiPietro: So the report's divvyed up into sort of three major categories. So I'll just start by like giving that high level. The first thing we see, it's a long-term trend, that we dug into was that there's this sizable gap between men and women's labor force participation rates. So that's the number of in this case, like women who are either actively working or searching for work. Divided by the population of women over 16 in the state. So there's been this eight percentage point gap in labor force participation between men and women for a long time. And we wanted to better understand sort of what's driving that. A hundred percent labor force participation is not realistic or even what we're advocating for, but I think it's really important to understand the barriers to employment for those who want to be working but are, you know, hitting roadblocks. So that's one thing is that gap. and I'm happy to we'll we can get into the details of of what's driving the gap and and where it's sort of even greater for different subgroups. The second thing we look at in this report is the sort of disproportionate impact of federal government job cuts under the Trump administration and DEI rollbacks on women and in particular black women in Maryland. and Because that's a newer trend, that's an example of an area where it was really important to have this qualitative data sort of supplementing what we what we can find from our typical sort of state and federal data sets. and then third, we look at sort of business ownership and entrepreneurship trends and find that while while women have been growing or I should say like starting new businesses fa at a faster rate than men since the start of the pandemic. there's still just extremely well documented you know barriers that they face that men don't. our recent state disparity study actually just came out in the fall and and really speaks to that and and we incorporated some of that in this report. and then also What something I personally find really interesting is is when we dig into what is driving this more rapid business growth for women recently, it's not all good things. Like it's not all sort of unequivocally positive, in my opinion, that we're seeing, you know, more women business ownership. It's a it's a a lot of the drivers actually speak to the things that are the ways we are failing women in sort of corporate America and in in other ways. So of course there's a ton of opportunity. Rebecca Snyder: Tell us a little bit more Dan, before you go on, tell us a little bit more about that because, business ownership should be a great story, but if it's coming out of desperation, which is kind of the subtext that I got there, that's not so great. So tell us what's Brooke Lierman: Yep. Rebecca Snyder: how how that's playing out. Dani DiPietro: Sure. And of course, this is not everyone's situation, but and I'll say, you know, a trend since COVID or since twenty twenty is in data terms still very new. So there's not a lot of like statistical academic research yet on on sort of what is like causation, like why are are we seeing more rapid growth in women on businesses, but surveys and think tanks and and the data that we do have available suggests that Especially in the past five years, women are being driven to business ownership really out of necessity, not necessarily Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Dani DiPietro: opportunity. one of my favorite quotes from the roundtables is a woman who said, I I started my business out of necessity because the workforce was not built for people in my circumstances to get ahead. And I think Rebecca Snyder: Hm. Dani DiPietro: survey data suggests that that recently women are opening businesses in response to A really tough job market getting laid off. in Maryland, that's probably disproportionately federal government layoffs, DEI rollbacks, and again then not just for federal workers, but private sector workers who, their companies have dropped their policies and sort of programs that were promoting inclusivity. the sexism, sort of racism, ageism is obviously still a longstanding factor that again the state disparity study really proves again is a major issue. And then again and again, just reading about survey findings, everyone report you know, from like McKinsey to Indeed reporting that more women are just saying they've hit a wall in corporate America. Like they are Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Dani DiPietro: just fed up with the lack of advancement, maybe fed up with the way that workplace policies just do not meet their needs. Some of the executive launch reporting has been really helpful here, showing, no progress in terms of women gaining more seats on Maryland's publicly traded companies, corporate boards. Mackenzie found for the eleventh year in a row, women are underrepresented at every level of the corporate pipeline. It's just it was a lot of sort of like, there has to be another path, and I'm gonna, you know, maybe entrepreneurship is that path. so that's Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Dani DiPietro: the that's the more sad side. Of course, there are like positive pull factors as well that states and other you know levels of government and other organizations are are of course designing great intentional programs and and and funding w you know women own businesses at higher rates. There are good things of course, but I was I was surprised by the some of the sort of drivers on that side. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. And com troler, were you surprised at anything that came out of this report? Brooke Lierman: I'm not sure if surprise is the right word. I think Frustrated. yeah, yeah. Rebecca Snyder: Reinforced gloom, yeah. Brooke Lierman: I no, look, I think I don't know if I have been really truly surprised, but I it is it is sometimes frustrating to read and to understand the challenges. you know, just from hearing as I go around the state and I'm talking to people and listening to them, I think the data supports a lot of there's not huge conflicts between the anecdotal and the qualitative data that we're amassing Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Brooke Lierman: and the quantitative data that we're pulling together, at least that I have noted. But you know, the gaps, you know, one would hope that some of these gaps between men and women would have shrunk a little bit more than they have. And I think, you know, there are some detailed level findings that I thought that I found really interesting and that I think would make well for like sort of targeted improvements like for instance the importance of English proficiency for foreign born women in particular, as opposed to you know, because just based on the data, like they really need that. Whereas it seems like foreign-born men are who do not have English proficiency are doing much better and are able to bring in much more. And well, you know, maybe that's just because of the types of work that are available to the different genders. but it it is there are detailed level findings that I think are really interesting. and I would I would not have thought of them, right, had we Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Brooke Lierman: not sort of dug in and done some of this work. I do think that entrepreneurship it the entrepreneurship in is data is really interesting. you know, we saw after COVID, there were actually a lot of reports. If you sort of just Google it, like a whole bunch of hits will come up on how the Of women starting their own businesses just skyrocketed through COVID. And Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Brooke Lierman: I think anybody any woman going through COVID, and probably any man, right, could who were like two parent households could, you know, see all the struggles and the juggling, and you could understand why that would happen during COVID in particular. I think since then, now it's it's frustrating to see it's great. On the one hand, it's amazing to see women starting their own businesses, but The thing that's frustrating is that some of them are not doing it because they want to or they've dreamed of always doing it, but because they feel compelled to, because they feel that's the only way that they can survive at this point. And then on the other side, the lack of capital available to them and the challenges that they face in getting going, are also are are a hard to stomach and you know, sort of they're doing everything they can and it sometimes feels like, gosh, can we just catch a break? Right. so Rebecca Snyder: for sure. Brooke Lierman: yeah. Rebecca Snyder: Well, and I'm curious because there's there's something to be said for women who are just fed up with the corporate world or maybe downsized and so kind of opt out and say, Well, I'm gonna be my own my own organization which Brooke Lierman: Yes, totally great. Go for it. Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: is is great. However a lot of those women I perceive, and I'm not sure if the data fills this out, are working more in like solopreneur worlds or really small scale. So Brooke Lierman: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: I I wanted to tease out what happens when you said earlier the workforce is not built for people or I think Danny said the workforce is not built for people in my circumstance. what happens big picture when you have a bunch of people opting out, you're not real are you able to make change on that individual level? that individual woman might be happy being a solopreneur, but they don't have the economic structure and what does that mean? mean long term to opt out of the workforce in some ways because it's not working for you. Brooke Lierman: Danny, you wanna jump in? Dani DiPietro: Sure. I think you know, it can be of course very positive. Like there, you know, a lot of women it from what we heard in the round tables who decide to pursue that path do find themselves, you know, better able to manage like myriad responsibilities and and that autonomy and flexibility does sort of totally change the game. And I Brooke Lierman: Yeah. Dani DiPietro: think the you know a few of the and of course like some are able to find the capital and scale and and and and s have great success. I think a few things that really stood out to me from the roundtables in terms of challenges are access to benefits came up constantly. So like what you're giving up, unless you have a spouse whose, you know, health insurance plan you can get on, that that can be a big trade-off. I think especially as we see like cost of health insurance rising and affordable crack subsidies going away, that's just gonna get harder. also I think just the repeated findings around around access to capital and and women, you know, even with higher credit scores than men you know being awarded less and loan applications being accepted at lower rates despite stronger repayment performance and having to do, h literally hundreds more pitches to investors to get the same amount of funding. Like that data is all still there and and just it just seems to still be way more of an uphill battle. so I think it's just like the burnout that can come from that. last thing I'll say is like Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Dani DiPietro: s of interesting finding from the report and you alluded to this, Rebecca, is women are way more likely to run non employer businesses or just be self-employed. I think a lot of that is connected to capital Brooke Lierman: Yeah. Dani DiPietro: because if it's harder to get capital up front, it's harder to enter these capital intensive industries. I'll use construction as an example, where there's where it can be easier to scale. Rebecca Snyder: Uh-huh. Dani DiPietro: Like of course governments are always procuring certain types of services and always need always need things constructed. But if if a woman is, you know, gonna have that much of a harder time raising money, they're probably gonna have a harder time going into these capital intensive, more scalable industries. And we see that and we include that in the report, the the industries that women and men are most likely to start businesses in. and and there is a big there's two very different sort of trajectories there. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. So we've talked about access to capital a couple different times in this conversation, and it seems like the data is showing that women are just not able to access capital, even with better credit scores, even with, you know, stronger business plans or whatnot. What do you think is driving or did the data or qualitative interviews tell you about that disparity? What what do you think is its cause? it could just be straight old sexism, but I don't want to put words into your mouth. Dani DiPietro: the state Yeah, the state disparity study definitely suggests it's it's sorta just discrimination. I mean we wouldn't be allowed to have our state minority business enterprise program, which includes women if they were not repeatedly finding statistical Brooke Lierman: Yeah. Dani DiPietro: signific s statistically significant sexism, racism. And I think it's also very much connected right to the representation and leadership like the bias will continue as long as more women aren't advancing into these leadership positions and being the decision makers. so it it kind of, you know, is all connected in that way. and I think another element to to capital here is that if we're thinking about like snowballs and a comp controller, feel free to jump in on this. Like what we were talking about earlier with maybe sacrificing some benefits and stability to become a business owner. I didn't mention Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Dani DiPietro: but of course like retirement savings plans and programs are a huge piece of that. we know that women Brooke Lierman: Yep. Dani DiPietro: are more likely to have advanced degrees than men, so they are more likely to have s more student debt and carry it for longer. And then, you know, if you're giving up maybe a retirement savings plan by leaving the corporate world, you know, maybe you've saved less or have less opportunity to invest in Save for the Future. So we see, you know, with men and women over 65, women have higher poverty rates, less financial security in the long run. of course, like if they're at the point of maybe wanting to open a business, they're likely to have less collateral to put up. and less Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Dani DiPietro: personal assets to contribute. So I think it's all connected in that way. Rebecca Snyder: So this has been a gloomy conversation thus far. So are there bright spots that you were feeling like there was progress being made or or something that could help our souls a little bit? Brooke Lierman: I'll let you start, Danny. Dani DiPietro: Well, I think yes, I think this state is already, you know, either w well underway or starting to do a lot of the things that the data suggests could help let's say, close some of these gender labor force participation rate gaps. So the comptroller spoke a little bit about English proficiency as one of them. So I'll be brief, but when we looked at we looked at like fifty different factors, in terms of men and women's labor force participation and and what might be driving these gaps and and the the sort of subgroups with the largest gap. So the eight percentage point for men and women is like the state average. But for women and men without with limited English proficiency, the gap is thirty two percentage points. And for women and men without a high school Rebecca Snyder: It's a huge percentage. Dani DiPietro: degree, it's twenty three percentage points. And for women and men who are married with young children, it's twenty one percentage points. So I think with those like three specific groups in mind, if we could just close the gap on those three groups, Brooke Lierman: Yeah. Dani DiPietro: we can make huge progress. And and there is, you know, great data to suggest what can help close those gaps. Brooke mentioned, excuse me, the Comptroller mentioned, you know, programs for sort of language profici English proficiency, there's a lot of credentialing issues. You know, women are more likely to be sort of in the healthcare and education space and childcare that that have certifications that don't translate neatly from one country to another, whereas men who are foreign born or don't speak English well, more likely to be in construction and landscaping and roles that are a little easier to plug into. So I think that is, you know, like can see there there are ways we could help, I think, as a as a state. And the similar with I think the less than high school degree or like less than a four year college degree. There's still huge gaps all the way up to four year college. That's another like that times up well with the blueprint and the focus on career and technical education and alternative pathways and you know like great opportunity to just make sure we're centering women in when those as those policies and programs are being implemented. And the last one, I think, married with young children. You know, there's so much evidence we know sort of what is needed, and it's you know, more flexible workplace policies and and paid family medical leave. And again, obviously the state has taken steps. Steps in that direction. So last one I'll say, which again I think is like encouraging because we can do something about it, is wage gaps just feel at the center of sort of all these things. you know, it's harder to remain attached to the workforce when you are either dissatisfied with your wage or if you're right up against the benefits cliff, or i yeah. Or you just sort of are again just so discouraged by the by the wage gap with with men and women. Brooke Lierman: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: Right. Well there's Brooke Lierman: I I would say, just to, round that out too, is it's been my experience that in general people in Maryland, policymakers and business leaders, understand the importance of making sure that women can reach their full economic potential and see it as a boon and understand that it should be a goal to ensure that, you know, women who have brilliant ideas and the ability to follow through on them are able To access capital to build out those brilliant ideas to make our state do better and to allow those ideas to help our businesses. And right, so I do think in general, you know, that's a positive. And we have policymakers at the county and the state level who are genuinely interested in this, understand its potential to grow our GDP, and at the same time to help women and their families and their communities. And so, you know, every year we see pieces of legislation that have Help us move the needle, right? That help close some of these gaps. And so we don't want people to read this and be discouraged. We want them to read this and double down, right, on those on those initiatives and to be able to use this data to go and say, look, we aren't there yet, right? We've got to keep working. Just like the disparity study shows us that we continue to need an MBE program, right, for contracting in the state. This study shows us that we can continue to need to push policies and capital deployment ideas at the in the private sector and the public sector to ensure that we are creating a a way for all of the all of the best ideas to to actually come to fruition, to build great businesses, and to allow Marylanders to live their best lives and to contribute in the state. Dani DiPietro: Yeah, so well said. I just wanted to add one thing in term in the spirit of giving credit where credit's due. When we compare Maryland to other states, we do have a relatively high labor force participation rate. We're in the top Brooke Lierman: Yep. Dani DiPietro: ten of all states for women and overall. Similarly, for the wage gap, we actually have one of the smaller gender wage gaps in the country. But as the Comptroller said, when we we are coming at this from an economic and revenue perspective, and from that perspective, there's clearly more that can be done. also, if we want to s think even bigger, while Maryland within the US ranks very highly, the US ranks extremely poorly compared to almost every other OECD country in terms of labor force participation rates. for women and the wage gap. So it's all relative. and as the comptroller and I both said, you know, the state is clearly very aware and has already taken a lot of steps in the right direction. We just sort of wanted to provide really pointed s information about where things can still more atta you know where more attention is needed. Rebecca Snyder: Absolutely well, and it does make perfect sense. You need data to be able to create policy and legislation that will will affect change. And the Comptroller of course has been a legislator for a long time before your current CFO of Maryland role. so w is there a particular policy or piece of legislation that you think could be like the most impactful looking forward based on the data that you've seen? There's so many issues to go to. Brooke Lierman: I'll I'll have to get back to you on that. I have not seen that magical bill yet. I I don't know if there is a magical bill that would do that, but we'll have to get back to you. I think there's a lot of different pieces of legislation that attack different aspects of this challenge head on. And and then some of these some of these challenges are just simply not things that can be legislated, right? you know, it we we just can't we can't solve all of the challenges through a policy making process or through bills. Some of it can be through how we s how agencies spend their dollars. It some of it can be you know, in terms of ensuring we're reaching our MBE goals. Some of it is up to business leaders to really double down on. And so it can't all be legislated. And so certainly when there there are places that legislation can help move the needle. And if nothing else can help sunlight challenges or opportunities, right? I'll thinking of your corporate board of the corporate board bill, right? That was a bill that was passed a few years ago that requires certain companies and certain industries, right, to to publish data on the diversity of their boards, that doesn't necessarily solve or compel private entities on who they hire for their boards, but it sunlights where we are, right? It shows here's where we are, so that we can individually and collectively encourage companies to do better. So I think sometimes that's really helpful as well in terms Of helping us to know where to put our energy and where we're moving the needle and where we aren't. So yeah. Rebecca Snyder: and well, and thank you for bringing that up because it is a multifaceted solution, and and there's probably no final there's no way to to fix everything all at the same time. So bringing Brooke Lierman: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: state, corporate, individual efforts together to help improve the state of of women in Maryland's economy is so important and I really appreciate that you both came out to talk to us a little bit more about Brooke Lierman: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: the report, which is linked in the show notes and Look forward to seeing the next report. So thank you. Brooke Lierman: Thank you. And we should plug our event. Do we have a date for our event yet on this, Danny? I don't know if we do. Okay. We are excited in early Dani DiPietro: No, pending some important co speakers, so stay tuned. Brooke Lierman: October to have a release, a release event for this report with some great speakers as well. So we'll be sure, Rebecca, to get you that data so you can share it with your with your members. Thanks. Rebecca Snyder: Absolutely. All right. Thank you. Brooke Lierman: Thank you all.