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Amber Heard and the Court of Public Opinion · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha. I'd welcome to stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I never told you production of I Heart Radio. All right,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: So we're gonna start this one with content warning right
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: at the top because we're going to be discussing abuse,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: a domestic abuse, specifically trauma and me too. Though nothing
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: at two in depth. Um, and this one is very
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: complicated and constantly changing, So time stamp. We are recording
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: this July two, and I believe it's going to be
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: at least a week before it comes out, and possibly
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: more so a lot could change, Like this morning, I
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: woke up, we're talking about the Amber heard Johnny Depp trial.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I woke up this morning and because I've been researching this,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: my phone was like new updates Yeah, okay, which I
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: did include, But at the point being, and it is
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: changing a lot, right, Yeah, There's a lot of opinions
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: out there, and it's a lot of back and forth.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: And we will say both Annie and I have been
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: deliberately staying away from commentating on it because there's a
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: lot of uncertainty and with sensitive cases like this, especially
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: in the field like hours, we want to make sure
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: we are not speaking out too quickly when it shouldn't
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: be so not that people care our opinions, but I
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: know it could be like this is a big deal,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: why are you talking about it? Type of conversation, And
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: it's kind of one of those like we want to
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: wait and see what's happening, and there's a lot to
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: factor in, and we also need to know how sensitive
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: and how this can affect UH policy around the world,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: which it has. But we'll keep going. Yes, I mean,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: it is extremely complicated, and mostly we're going to be
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: focusing on sort of the fallout of this and why
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: it's so complicated. But yeah, one last note. We are
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: not lawyers, UM. We're just going to explain what happens, um,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: and why has had an impact already in the world
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: of me too, and what it means for the future,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: what could mean for the future. Okay, so, yes, we're
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: talking about this trial between Amber Heard and Johnny Depp.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: But let's start with some basics, UM. So Heard in
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: depth first met on the set of The Rum Diary
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: in two thousand nine. Um. She is over twenty years
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: younger than him, UM, and so she was on like
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: the rise in her career, but he was already well
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: known to the American people at this time. Um, something
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: that is certainly at play in this whole thing where
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: he'd come back to that. Um. They started dating in
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: twelve and got married in ten. Heard filed for divorce.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Days later. She requested and received a restraining order against
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Depth due to domestic violence. Um. Depth lawyer accused her
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: of trying to get more money from Depth. She did
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: receive a seven million dollar settlement, but donated it to
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: the a c l U and the Children's Hospital of
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Los Angeles, though recently has come to light that not
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: all of it, perhaps five hundred thousand of it came
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: from Elon Musk, whom she briefly dated after Depth. Again,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: new information all the time coming out, but the a
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: COLU has released a statement about that that you can
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: check out. Okay, so this isn't the first time we've
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: seen herd in Depth in court. A couple of years ago,
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Depth lost a UK libel case against the Sun when
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: HERD provided evidence in support of the publications claims that
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Depp beat her. They called him a wife beater. Um.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Even though historically the odds were against her like this
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: was a really difficult case for her to win in
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: the UK. Specifically and again that's the legal thing that
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: are at about. I trust the experts when they say it,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: but I am not an expert. Yes um. In light
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: of this evidence, twelve of the fourteen instances of domestic
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: violence against her was proven to have taken place, or
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: the judge believed this was proof enough to prove that
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: they had taken place, and Judge Justice Nicol ruled that
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: The Sun's article about Depth was quote substantially true, and
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: further that she proved that coming forward against Depth quote
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: had a negative effect on her career as an actor
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: and activist. The judge dismissed depths claims that she was
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: a gold digger, saying, quote, her donation of seven million
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: dollars to charity is hardly the act one would expect
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: of a gold digger. He cited an email from Depth
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  Speaker 1: that read, I have no mercy, no fear, and not
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: an ounce of emotion or what I once thought was
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  Speaker 1: lovet for this gold digging, low level dime a dozen mushy,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: pointless dangling over used flappy fish market. I can only
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: hope that Karma kicks in and takes the gift of
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: breath from her. Sorry man, but now I will stop
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: at nothing. He also texted actor Paul Bettany, let's drown
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: her before we burn her. I will her burnt corpse
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: afterwards to make sure she's dead. Um, the judge said,
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  Speaker 1: quote I accept that she heard was the victim of
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: sustained and multiple assaults by Mr Depp in Australia. Is
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: a sign of the depth of his rage that he
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: admitted scrawling graffiti in blood from his injured finger, and
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: then when that was into fficient dipping his badly injured
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: finger and pain and continuing to write messages and other things.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: I accept her evidence of the nature of the assaults
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: he committed against her. They must have been terrifying. I
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  Speaker 1: accept that Mr Depp put her in fear of her life.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: A lot of information herd provided was disturbing, including a
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: force quote cavity search for drugs, and at the time
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: her lawyer in the US promised even more evidence would
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: be presented at an upcoming trial here in the States.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: So in this case, a Depth suit heard for defamation
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: for fifty million dollars over an op ed her published
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: in The Washington Post in eighteen about sexual violence and
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: in which she never actually mentions depth. Um and her
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: countersuit for one million. This was a civil suit specifically
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: tried in Virginia because of the state's libel laws. So
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: in the op ed headline quote, I spoke up against
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: sexual violence and faced our culture's wrath. That has to change,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: um and Heard alleged that after she spoke up about
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Depth abuse, she was dropped from a movie and a
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: fashion ad campaign, while Depp got a huge role in
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: the Fantastic Beast franchise, a role he was asked to
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: resign from after the Sun case. Um and largely outlets
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: like TNZ sided with Depth, but some feminist writers were
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: sounding the alarm. This was happening months before the election
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: of Donald Trump and a year before the Weinstein accusations
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: really took off. When they did, more people were suddenly
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: paying attention to the fact that Herds felt the need
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: to get a restraining order from her ex husband. And
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: in eighteen Heard was named an ambassador for women's rights
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: by the a c l U. And this is when
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: she wrote that op ed that this whole thing is
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: about and it was in part in support of the
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Violence Against Women's Act, which was dropped by Trump and
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: picked back up by um Biden. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: and we've talked about that in past episodes. In June,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: a jury and Virginia rejected that evidence and more that
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: had worked in the UK and sided with Depth, even
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: though most experts thought that Depth's chances of winning the
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: case were lower than Herds. So what happened A lot
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: of experts think has to do with the fact that
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: the case was argued to a jury and the media coverage.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: According to international media lawyer Mark Stevens, because the US
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: trial was before a jury, it allowed Depth's lawyers to
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: focus on Herd. They deny that their client did anything.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: They deny they're the real perpetrator, and they attack the
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: credibility of the individual calling out the abuse, and then
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: reverse the rules of the victim and the offender. He
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: also pointed out that Depth's team was more experienced than
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: Herds and arguing libel cases. Specifically, Yeah, I think if
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: you heard any part of the trial it felt that way.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you of like, huh. Interesting. So
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: though the jury reached the verdict that Heard and Depth
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: defamed each other, they sided far more with Depth, supporting
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  Speaker 1: all three of his defamation claims versus only one of Herds. Uh.
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  Speaker 1: This translated to an award of ten point three five
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  Speaker 1: million dollars for Depth and two million for her. Her
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: lawyer promised that they would appeal, though hers petition for
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: a mistrial was just rejected. Yes, I just the news
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: I woke up to on my phone, right, But okay,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: what's going on here? If heard had more evidence, why
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: did she lose? And yes, I know in a lot
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: of ways this is unfortunately rhetorical, and I've bet a
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: lot of you are like, oh, I know it already.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: But okay, we've seen it happen over and over again
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: to women after all, But let's still break down some
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: of it. A big part of this conversation is a
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: tactic frequently used by abusers called darvo, with many arguing
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: at that Depth and his team used this strategy. So
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: this was first introduced by Dr Jennifer fraide In and
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: this is a quote about it. Darva refers to reaction
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: perpetrators of wrongdoing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVA stands for deny,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: attack and reverse victim and offender. The perpetrator or offender
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  Speaker 1: may deny the behavior attack the individual doing the confronting
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: and reverse the roles of victim and offender, such that
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: victim or the whistleblower to an alleged offender. This occurs,
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: of falsely accused and attacks the accusers of credibility and
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of false accusation.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: So basically, the perpetrator is trying to make it more
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: difficult to determine who the quote real victim is, engaging
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: in behavior like downplaying the injuries of the victim while
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: exaggerating there's their own, and blaming the victim for the
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: abuser's actions. Some recent research into DARVO suggests women are
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: exposed to it more often, it is a purposeful strategy
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  Speaker 1: used by the perpetrator when confronted with the victim, and
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: that it encourages self blame in the victim guest learning uh.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: New research has also found that when people were exposed
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: to DARVO in case of abuse, they were less likely
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: to believe the victim. However, with some anti DARVO education,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: people found the perpetrator less believable. Some argue Depths entire
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: case against the Washington Post was a Darvo strategy. Yes, Um,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: and there has been a lot of argument about who,
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: if anyone, is employing Darvo in this particular case that
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: the consensus seems to be it is Depth. Um. He
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: has the power in the relationship. He's a powerful man,
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: he's older, he's richer, he's more famous. Um heard admitted
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: to hitting Depth and some of their altercations. And for
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: a lot of folks, that muddied the line between abuse
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: and abuser, which is a clear cut line that often
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: doesn't exist in reality, but a lot of people think
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: that it does. Um. And, of course men can be
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: and are victims of violence and abuse, but many think
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: that truth was manipulated for Depth by Depth. The trial
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: has been used both in good faith to showcase that
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: men can in fact be victims of abuse UM and
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: don't report it due to stigma, but also in bad
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: faith by men's rights activists to drag down feminism as
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: the great evil that they view it to be. According
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: to mal magazine, He's try outfits neatly into a tapestry
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: of claims that men are under attack, woven alongside clumsy
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: narratives about false rape accusations and mother's lying to block
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: children from their fathers. Uh. Depth did provide evidence that
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: she had hit him previously, including an audio recording where
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: she appears to mock him for trying to put himself
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: in the place of the victim. She said, you can
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: tell people it was a fair fight, and then see
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: what the jury and judge thinks. Tell the world, Johnny,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: tell them, Johnny Depp I a man. I'm a victim
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: too of domestic violence. It's a fair fight. And see
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: how many people believe or side with you. Well, and
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: here we are. But um and heard had a previous
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: incident in two thousand nine where she was arrested for
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: allegedly striking then girlfriend Tasa van Ree's arm. However, van
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Ree came out in support of herd claiming the incident
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: was blown out of proportion due to misogyny and homophobia.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Uh oh okay, But this rings us to two other
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: big pieces of this case, the myth of the perfect
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: victim and how we perceive women in particularly women survivors
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: in court, which we did discuss in our Trauma Any series, Right, right,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: So that's a good listen if you want to reminder,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: didn't hear those um, But yeah, we've talked about the
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: perfect victim narrative before, but this is essentially the what
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: was she wearing? Was she promiscuous? Actually had some drinks
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: that bs that we always hear, and it did come
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: up in this. And that's not saying we should dismiss
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: what hurt is allegedly done. But the incredibly uneven support
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Depth has gotten and the money he received compared to
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: what heard got um and based on the evidence we
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: had for both parties, that's I mean, that's pretty telling.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: And the discourse seems to be she too did harm,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: so everything she says is a lie, even if proof
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: seems to show that he did harm and most likely
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: more harm. But because she's not perfect, then it doesn't matter. Right. So,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: according to an anonymous juror, Heard wasn't quite believable. And
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: they go on to say she would answer one question
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: and she would be crying, and two seconds later she
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: would turn ice cold. It didn't seem natural. Again, some
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: of the jurors called used the term crocodile tears for her. Meanwhile,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: they said Depth seemed more genuine um. And this also
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: plays into how we believe survivors should behave and pervasive
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: rape myths and how we don't understand how trauma looks
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: or manifest as discussed extensively in our Trauma mini series
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: and our own experiences in trauma as well, because we
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: get a lot of comments about, yeah, this is inappropriate. Um.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: And it was interesting as they came on to be interviewed,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: they just kept saying things like that, I just she
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: doesn't look like this, or she didn't do like I
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: thought she should, so therefore she's obviously lying, which is
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: a whole different conversation because as a person who was
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: on the stand, why would you want you know, like
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: it's kind of this back and forth, like what is
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: a believable person? Like there are signs as such, but
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: the whole time, you know, as I watched some of
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: the case, you have amber heard uh looking very inquisitive
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: or scared, as well as sometimes cold and very like focused,
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: which could be you know, however they wanted to must
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: translate that to Johnny Depp looking relaxed, making jokes, smiling,
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: you know, all those things like is that really more believable?
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Who knows? Right? And this was originally going to be
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: a bigger episode, but there was just so much to
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: impact with this alone, right, But it got me thinking
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: about when Dr Christine Placey forward came came forward and
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: how people picked apart her very in my opinion, professional performance. Um.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: And then like, we recently saw Cassie Hutchison and Jamie
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: six hearings and I saw the same thing where I
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: feel like women, it's yeah, it's a damned if you do,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: damned if you don't. We heard a lot of that
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: narrative around Hill that you couldn't too, like she's too cold,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: she's too it feels like she's calculating. So much of
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: that is training you get because we get judged for
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: being emotional, right, So it's yeah, I mean, and I
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: don't know if this is like a just a stereotype
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: of what it looks like to be on law shows
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: or something like the constant law shows are like lawyers
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: training their clients to be a specific way and most
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: of the times telling women you don't look sympathetic if
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: you do this, like specifically, if you're too cold, if
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: you're too direct, don't do that. Mm hmmm. Yeah, And
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: I mean I can't say specifically for these women, but
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: for me that would get my head and then I
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: would become it would become sort of somewhat of a performance,
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: which would probably seem unnatural to people watching me. And
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: it is a performance because you are you try to
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: prepare for trial. That is the thing I had to
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: do that when we sat down and we talked about
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: the questions that we would get if we had like
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: any of these, and if I was stumbling, then therefore
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: I would look even more unprofessional. But yeah, it was
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: the whole thing. I found the whole narrative interesting because
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: of the way it was cited. Again it was either
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: she was cold or she had crocodile tears, made fake
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: tears exactly exactly. I can't when And Yeah, as mentioned, um,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: the media really had to impact on this case, and
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: especially social media perhaps um because it did really capture
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: the attention of the media and the internet and then
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: pretty much everybody because of that, Court TV doubled their
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: daytime ratings when they broadcast the show. Yeah, I said,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: show the case. Um, everyone had an opinion on it.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: And when asked about the response on social media about
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: this whole case, Dr Fred said, what we have witnessed
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: in the US over this case has been an overwhelming
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: case for Depth on social media. It is like an
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: anti herd campaign and there has been a lot of darvo.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Every day. During the six week trial, hashtags like justice
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: for Johnny Depp were trending, and though the jurors were
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: not supposed to check social media surrounding the case, I mean,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: how could they avoid it? Right? It was everywhere and
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: from team Vogue, they said, But instead of being relegated
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: to the deep corners of the Internet, your younger siblings
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: and parents and teachers are equally as likely to catch
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: an inflammatory TikTok or Facebook post about the trial as
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: anyone else. TikTok's mocking Herd are all over the app
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: and SNL even did a skit about the abuse trial
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: which they were like, what the hell are you doing?
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Snl And according to NBC News, as a trial began,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: quote posters on Twitter and TikTok have overwhelmingly backed Depth,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: with hashtags like justice for Johnny Depp, racking up nearly
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: three billion views on TikTok. Similar hashtags have been tweeted
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: thousands of times. Meanwhile, Amber heard it's frequently called a liar,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: a old digger, and quote Amber turn very very adult like.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: There was also a TikTok trend addressing her that started
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: with quote, he could have killed you. He had every right. Um.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: And even the celebrities got on board on this. It
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: was a lot more publicly speaking depths name like literally
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: they were talis about who was on whose side and
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: which celebrities were liking Post for justice, for depth and
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: all of these things. It was an interesting, really sad
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: take of the entire conversation. Um. But again going back
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: to the reminder, I'm we're gonna come back to this
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: point that this was about an article that did not
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: even mention his name. Yes, yes, um. And I don't
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: know if we made this entirely clear, but Dr Fade,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: who had been mentioning throughout who came up with Darvo,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: has been interviewed with a lot of this um and
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: so earlier, and we said, like, I believe it was her.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: She she made the case. Like the whole Washington Post
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Depth suing them at all was an instance of this,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: because he was so angry about what happened in the
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: UK and what he perceived that to be as his
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: like reputation. UM. So like this entire case was a
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: very strategic um kind of instance of abuse. UM, because
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: it's not easy. We're gonna talk about this later too,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: but it's not easy to confront in court your abuser
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: and talk about this stuff. And it was it was
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: really ugly in a lot of ways. And speaking of
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: others have pointed out the toxic fandom kind of aspect
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: of this whole thing, choosing size, as you say, um,
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: something called mumification, where just a lot of people on
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: the Internet are making memes of Amber heard that are
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: pretty cool. Here's another quote from that article Online, the
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: controversy has taken on a creepy bent, being streamed means
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: and opined on from TikTok to TV to Twitter, with
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: fandoms developing for each side. One screenshot shows the post
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: calling for viewers to like the post to support Depth
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: and retweet to support Herd, like it's the super Bowl
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: or something. Um. And then here's a quote from tech
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: journalist Ryan Broadwick. Basically, a lot of boring men think
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Johnny Depp is cool. Zack Snyder fans think Amber Herd's
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: issues with depth have impacted the release of DC movies.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Harry Potter adults are mad that Depth was removed from
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: the Fantastic Beast franchise after he was accused of domestic violence,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: and a lot of turns viciously defend anything online about
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Harry Potter because of J. K. Rowlings increasingly public transphobia.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: Others have pointed out that depth has many roles that
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: are beloved in comparison to herd, so many people wanted
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: to see him vindicated because he may have played some
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: of their favorite characters, right. I mean, that's definitely true,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: and the fact that he resigned from Fantastic Beast was
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: one of the things that he used in the counter
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: in his suing. But it's interesting to the level of
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: fandom who would not let this go um and just
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: about how sexy was, Like the conversation about how sexy
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: you was, how daddy was it was weird, Like this
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: is not the moment again, it's kind of the serial
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: killer vibe. But but I'm not saying he's a serial killer.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying the fans are that level. I'm just
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: saying that, like overall, like it almost made him more
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: desirable to be in this situation. Yeah, and I mean
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: the fact that we are going to talk about that
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: a bit more. But the fact that that even comes
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: out at all in a case of domestic abuse. But
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: he's so sexy, Like that's what that is. Like You're like, wait,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: what just because so yeah, we'll go on to that.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: But yeah, on top of this, there's evidence Depth team
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: used bots to attack herd online, and conservative outlets have
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: sided with Depth too, with at least one spending millions
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: on advertisings against heard Um, and Fox Network is set
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: to air TMC documentary on the trial called Johnny Versus
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Amber From Love to Hate. It's really showcases how we've
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: turned this into entertainment when real people, in real consequences
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: for others are involved. Yeah, this whole thing. There's a
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: big conversation about that fact that we've had previously about disinformation,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: misinformation and campaigns where they are smearing people's characters and
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: this was you specifically to smear heard before the trial
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: even began. Yeah, And I think that's pretty telling. Like
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: if they Conservative Network spent millions on an advertising campaign
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: against her because she's involved in the trial domestic abuse trail,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: I mean that's something's messed up with that, something is
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: off about that when there's a motive behind this, because
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: there's no real need. This is not like Johnny Depp's
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: running for president point in time? Is he? Wait? Is he?
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: And I'm just like, I'll just realize what I just
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: said and not kind of wondering. Okay. Yeah, So now
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: we wanted to wrap up with the fallout and implications,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: and there are a lot and we're only going to
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: touch on some of them. But yeah, I think we
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: could come back and do a whole revisited this one, because,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: as we said, what's still happening. So after this, as
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: it was ongoing and after a lot of people in
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: the me too space released some statements about it, many
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: saw the response to this case as a backlash to
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: the Me too movement and the Believe women hashtag. After
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: the verdict came down, activists and co founder of the
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Me too movement, Toronto Burke, released the statement, the way
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: in which me too has been co opted and manipulated
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: during the Johnny Depp versus Amber her Child is a
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: toxic catastrophe, one of the biggest defamations of the movement
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: we have ever seen. Right Um and several have pointed
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: out that depth is the first a list sex sible
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: to come under fire from Me too and he has
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: won multiple Oscars and has been People's Sexiest Men Alive
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: three different times. Basically for decades, our culture has admired
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: and praised him, and that has primed many to side
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: with him. People want to believe he's innocent and have
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: given him far more of the benefit of the doubt.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Is absolutely he kind of was like America's sweetheart as
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: it as it will, like the sexiest men alive being
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: Jack Sparrow, Like he became iconic for his caricatures, and uh,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: some of them are disturbing, the disturbing characters. Yeah, yeah,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: And I mean we've already like, I've already primed as
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: much as the outcry has been um from these bots
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: are angry. Men were already primed in court to believe
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: min like and not to believe women. He already had
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: the advantage in that sense. But then he has like, yes,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: all of these fans, people think he's attractive. He's played
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: the like favorite characters, like he had all of these
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: things in his favor right for this, and I do.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: I was thinking, I said, I know I've told this
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: story before, but I wrote an essay about how much
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: I love Johnny Depp in high school, and now it
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: makes my stomach urb. I've never been a fan of
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: John Depth and I'm not really sure why. Uh, but yeah,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: he's never been one that I like got my attention.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Um interesting enough, so for me it was just like okay,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: So like whatever's okay. Yeah, And we've already seen some
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: really troubling hints at the future, especially when it comes
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: to abusers punishing victims for coming forward with defamation cases. Again,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: this is already kind of under attack, under like a
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court level of being able to do civil suits
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: and defamation suits, not necessarily for the regular person, but
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: there's a lot coming down on that, and I really
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: have concerns about what this looks like for possible survivors
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: in the future. Um. And after this case, Brian Warner
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: a k a. Marilyn Manson file the defamation case against
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Evan Rachel Wood. Uh. And then you can see the
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: episode we did with bridget about this and don't forget
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: This entails a traumatizing force interaction between the abuse and
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: the victim survivor, including reliving past trauma and retelling the
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: past trauma and then being questioned repeatedly about it until
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: you start questioning it yourself, and experts warned the amount
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: of attention to trial God and the outcome is going
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: to send a message to all survivors, which it already
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: has and abusers watching um again, this has a lot
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: of that conversation when we see the backlash gas lighting,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: victim blaming, so much more that's already difficult to get
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: past from jump um and the continued lines that cannot
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: be swells when people are saying, but there's a lot
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: of false reports which is completely and absolutely and utterly untrue.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: So it is it's definitely caused for a lot of
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: um were we as well as the fact that yes,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: if whatever happens with the Evan and Rachel Wood case,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: this conversation talks about being able to speak out in general, um,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: even if it isn't based on charging them or getting
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: them arrested, which is way more difficult. Exactly exactly, UM,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: I read a very disturbing quote where somebody was saying,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: like essentially of users everywhere like taking notes. Okay, got
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: it right, and also they should be mentioned apparently Depp
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: and Warner our friends in real life. Of course. I
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: saw he released a very hateful song about Amber heard
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: just a few days ago. Delightful, sounds wonderful. He being
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: dep I don't know about Warner, but oh, I thought
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: you meant Warner. I mean, who knows? Keep going okay.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: According to Christine im Schwartz, who is the clinic director
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: at the Jane W. Wilson Family Justice Clinic at the
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: u J Law School, quote, I promise to you that
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: in the demographic I work with, there are abusers out
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: there right now telling victims. I'm going to pull a
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: dep on you. If you disclose, I will sue you.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: It's a power and control threat that now has a
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: name attached to it. And sociologist Nicole Badera said, imagine
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: if in trying to talk to all of these people,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: someone taking the perpetrator side said to you, if you
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: keep saying this stuff, he's going to sue you for defamation.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: I guarantee you that's happening right now. Our friends and
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: family are saying to someone accused of sexual violence, you
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: could sue her. I guarantee you that people are saying
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: that right now, all across the country. She went on
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: to say, historically saying that your survivor of domestic violence
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: is qualified as protected speech, but that the defamation suit
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: against Amber Heard puts all of that in doubt. And
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: that's the big conversation is that she wrote an op
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: ed without truly naming them because he is famous. Because
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: the case had gone uh into the news, into media,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: the people guessed it that she was sued. And that
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: is not the same thing as saying you're suing for
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: violence a civil suit because you've caused me stressed. This
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: was about him trying to get her to publicly be
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: humiliated so they could he could discredit her in an
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: op ed that really didn't name him. Yes, it was
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: about him obviously, come of the generic experience for her
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: in there in itself. Um, But now this is about
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: being able to write it not bed right. And and
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: and we've been talking about this a lot recently actually,
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: and I think some of the episodes haven't come out yet,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: but we've been talking a lot about you know, celebrities
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: are people, So we've we've actually been talking about this
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: a lot lately. Celebrities are people, and just because your
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: celebrity doesn't mean you shouldn't be protected from writing an
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: op ed about an experience you had. But it also
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: was terrifying because she's as celebrity right, and it went
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: this way. She has more resources, She has more resources
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: and able to defend herself. And then it went this
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: way anyway, because exactly it comes down to is whoever
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: has the most money most likely will win. Yeah, it
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: seems it seems yeah yeah. And experts have said that
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: this is a bleak reminder of a system that does
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: not offer our equal protections. Herd lawyer said the result
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: of the case sends a quote terrible message to women,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: and that Herd told her she felt she had let
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: down women. Um here's a quote from her I'm heartbroken
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: that the amountain of evidence still was not enough to
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: stand up to the disproportionate power, influence and sway of
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: my ex husband. I'm even more disappointed with what this
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: verdict means for other women. It is a setback. It
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: sets back the clock to a time when a woman
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: who spoke up and spoke out could be publicly shamed
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: and humiliated. It sets back the idea that violence against
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: women is to be taken seriously. And going back to
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Dr Freyde, she said, of all this, others who wish
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: to make claims will see what happened in this case
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: and see what has happened to her, and think twice
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: many will be afraid to talk, and many already are
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: afraid to talk. And again we're not talking about the
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: actual what happened between Heard and Depth. There is evidence
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: that they were toxic and abusive to each other. Um.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: But this conversation is the bigger play about Yes, there's
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: a power, there is a way of wielding that power,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: as well as the fact that it's silencing from people
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: speaking up. Um. But we know that Johnny Depp was
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: not quite either. Obviously when he went for the Sun
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: and trying to sue and all of that, he wasn't
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: being quiet, uh, and he was telling people as well
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: as letting people know on a professional level what was happening.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: So I feel like again, like there was this back
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: and forth which both of them it was true. Ambery
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: Heard also lost opportunities as well, but maybe not as
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: much as he did because he was already a bigger
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: actor who was already eating more money and had more
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: power in the industry anyway, So there's this whole level
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: of conversation of like, sure it impacted Johnny Depp, but
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: it impacted her as well. Like again, it's kind of
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: same narrative of that gold digger trope, being like she
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: was making money and it was easy for her to
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: do this. Um, any survivor of domestic moments will tell
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: you this is not something that gives you favor, right, right,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: And I was thinking about that too when we did
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: um the episode on Forever Ago on Black Widow and
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: kind of disnease response to Scarlett show Hanson being like,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: you're just trying to get more money, and like, yeah,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: she's trying to get what she's worth. Like I saw
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: the elements of that in here too, where people are like, well,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: she's just a woman trying to get money, therefore she
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: automatically is bad, like not necessarily and that's not even
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: necessarily was going on. I think that's like one of
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: the things, as you were saying, Samantha, like this case
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: is complicated, but it did show us a lot of
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: these really harmful narratives around women and survivors rape, sexual
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: assault violence. It's just this whole plethora of really negative things.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: And then the court of public opinion now it's still
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: so much skewed towards men, right, and be harmful, how
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: harmful this is and will be for other other people watching. Yeah, yeah,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: and unfortunately, I mean, I don't know, we're we are
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: going to have to do an update. I do know,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: ever heard I think is writing a book about this,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: and I think Johnny Depp is too, So it's gonna
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: get you, Ben Uglier, I'm sure. So, I'm sure we'll
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: be back for a revisit. Um. But that's what we
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: have to say about it for now. UM. As always,
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: if you have any topic, suggestion, listeners that you can
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: let us know, you can emails at stuff in your
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: mom Stuff at I heart mea dot com. You can
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or on
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Instagram at stuff What Never Told You. Thanks It's always
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: to our super producer Christina. Thank you Christina, and special
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: thanks to researcher Joey this week, and thanks to you
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: for listening Stuff and Never Told You the protection of
• 33:52
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