Latest / The Curve / RTC105: Why ‘Girl Math’ needs the boot, with Bronwyn Taylor.

Transcript

RTC105: Why ‘Girl Math’ needs the boot, with Bronwyn Taylor. · The Curve

0:00
Welcome to Raising the Curth, a podcast designed to teach you everything you need to know
0:05
to be better with your money.
0:07
And the wise words of Amy Schumer were slipping carrots into the brownie recipe.
0:11
I don't really get the saying.
0:14
It's kind of like eating vegetables that actually taste good.
0:17
You know, I'm like, still not wearing it.
0:19
Are you on the script?
0:21
It's basically like saying, investing in finance can be boring as, but it totally doesn't
0:26
need to be.
0:27
OK, OK, so we're making it fun by putting the carrot.
0:31
OK, the vegetables are just good for you.
0:33
It's the brownie recipe.
0:35
OK, we got there, we got there.
0:36
OK, OK.
0:37
Well, you've really got a finance mate.
0:39
Yeah, one of us has to.
0:40
This is a joke.
0:41
OK, come and learn alongside me from Vick Harris, ex-fun manager.
0:45
Well, I'm going to ask all the questions that you wish you could.
0:48
And I'm going to be eating all the brownie you wish you could.
0:51
No, that's so not the joke, Vick.
0:54
OK, just come and talk and learn and laugh with us.
0:56
Because together, we really can raise the curve.
1:01
We interviewed Bronwyn Taylor for this episode.
1:04
And, believe it, she was so lovely.
1:06
Wasn't she a cutest human?
1:08
We were talking about girl mass in this episode.
1:10
And it's been a conversation we've wanted to broach for ages.
1:15
And it raps me up.
1:17
Yeah.
1:18
It raps.
1:19
And Vick flight really, and do you know what?
1:21
I was kind of on team, don't mind about girl mass.
1:24
After this, I'm like, it's got to be canceled.
1:26
Yeah, yeah.
1:27
She was converted.
1:28
I'm like, give her a concert.
1:29
You just wait, though, it takes a minute.
1:31
But it was a really great way, I think, to debunk the conversation
1:35
of why this is problematic.
1:38
And she wrote an amazing article about why she hated it so much.
1:42
That's right.
1:43
So someone from our community, she put us in touch with her.
1:45
We'll not put us in touch, though.
1:46
It was like, you should read this article.
1:47
Yeah.
1:48
They're like, yes, these are such good points.
1:50
So, yeah, for anyone that is interested in girl mass,
1:53
or maybe jokes, and makes like an Instagram caption,
1:55
like, girl mass, because I keep saying them.
1:57
It's still a thing.
1:58
And because Sof was at me to do a podcast,
2:00
episode on girl mass, and I was like,
2:01
I just couldn't articulate why it raffed me up so much.
2:04
So, thanks, Bronwyn.
2:05
You really helped me out here.
2:06
Yeah.
2:09
Bronwyn, welcome to the studio.
2:11
Thanks for having me.
2:12
We've been wanting to talk about girl mass for so long.
2:14
We haven't really known how to do it.
2:16
I know. So I was like, Vick, come on.
2:17
Come on.
2:18
I'm just, I hate it, but I don't know why.
2:21
And it makes me feel prickly.
2:23
And I can't articulate it, and it just frustrates me.
2:25
And so, I'm so good that we can just palm this conversation off.
2:28
I know, but that's how I felt as well.
2:31
I heard it on social media, and on the radio,
2:34
and I thought, oh, that's like just rubbing me the wrong way
2:37
a little bit, but I didn't really know why.
2:40
And I tried to ignore it.
2:42
I'm not like a tick tocker, I don't even know if it's ticker.
2:45
That's probably not what you call it.
2:47
But when I started noticing it coming into mainstream media,
2:52
like in the news, economic commentators
2:55
talking about, like, girl mass in the articles.
2:58
So I came across something where a female economist
3:01
was writing about cosmetic sales during COVID,
3:04
and like that they'd gone up, even though people
3:06
had a cost of living crisis, and is that girl mass?
3:09
And that was the point where I was like, that's enough.
3:11
I've had it.
3:12
Oh, yeah, I had a rage blackout, and I thought, like,
3:15
I just need to sit down and think carefully about what,
3:19
actually, I have a problem with.
3:21
And it's totally not about saying, like,
3:23
oh, you said girl mass in your article,
3:25
you started it, you know, it's not about that.
3:27
It's just like, oh, this is annoying, actually.
3:29
So maybe we can have a productive conversation coming out
3:33
of it to say, like, maybe gender-based stereotypes
3:36
are not great things to make jokes about.
3:39
Yeah.
3:40
I feel like with gender stereotypes,
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or actually, honestly, just girl-math in general,
3:45
I really wanted to get on board with it,
3:46
because I thought it was pretty funny.
3:48
Actually, side-knife, anyone that doesn't know
3:49
what girl-math is, should we give some examples of what?
3:52
It would be.
3:54
If I bought something and then returned it,
3:57
I basically made money.
3:58
If I go shopping and I don't buy anything,
4:00
that means that my budget for the next day is now doubled.
4:03
So I bought this purse for $38, which means it was $30.
4:09
Round down, not a girl-math.
4:12
I feel like I girl-matched earlier this year
4:14
when I bought 12 bottles of tequila.
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And I was like, look, well, I bought 12 bottles.
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I've got summer ahead of me,
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and now I don't have to pay for tequila
4:22
for the rest of the summer.
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And little did I know that was actually girl-math,
4:27
because I've paid for something up front,
4:28
which means I don't have to then pay for it again again.
4:30
And it's kind of like this.
4:32
And like, I mean, I'm definitely not coming
4:34
from a place of high-grounder.
4:35
I do it all the time as well,
4:37
but it's just attaching the name to it
4:39
that I find really annoying.
4:40
Like, we all maybe make decisions
4:43
that like a based on more emotion,
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or we just want it and you go,
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oh, fuck it, I'm just going to buy it, totally fine.
4:49
But like, we don't have to call it girl-maths
4:51
and then associate like silly financial decisions
4:54
with like a gender in particular.
4:56
But yeah, I think other examples are like,
4:59
oh, me and my mum could both wear this outfit.
5:01
So it's like 50% off, or...
5:03
Yeah, yeah, let's go on.
5:04
If I pay in cash, it's literally free.
5:07
Like, it's...
5:08
I bet.
5:09
You're like, that's quite...
5:11
Or it's one where it's like,
5:13
oh, it was after midnight.
5:13
I can't remember making the purchase,
5:15
so they don't count.
5:16
Yeah, and I don't know if that's the one.
5:17
Totally.
5:18
It's like kind of similar to like,
5:20
that, you know, all the calories don't count
5:21
if it's a Friday or something like that.
5:23
Yeah, okay.
5:24
But I agree.
5:25
I think it's the fact that it's girl-math.
5:27
It's not just math or boy-math or bad-math.
5:31
You know, it's literally girl-math.
5:33
And so, yeah, when we have constantly
5:35
been fed these stereotypes that we're bad spenders
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and we need to save more and all of that,
5:40
just fueling all of that into it
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with the whole girl-math trend
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is that we're bad with money.
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And I hate it.
5:47
Yeah.
5:48
I also think, even girl instead of woman,
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I think, yeah, there's so much to unpack.
5:53
But the ZDM brick-for-show, I think,
5:56
we're doing heaps on it.
5:57
Like, they were almost doing a secret,
5:59
I don't know if it was every day,
6:00
but it was things.
6:01
And I couldn't help but like,
6:02
have a giggle at some of them.
6:03
You know, I'm like, it is funny.
6:04
Like, I'm not trying to shit all over it
6:06
because like, it's quite nice
6:08
when life is complicated and heavy to be able to have a laugh.
6:11
But what I would love to talk about today is first-ignorging,
6:16
there is some funny girl-math.
6:17
Like, some of the jokes are quite funny,
6:19
but we want to unpack why it's problematic
6:22
and talk about how it can actually be more damaging
6:25
than perhaps a lot of us realize.
6:27
So, can we actually just before we start?
6:29
Can we do a round robber?
6:30
Like, who here is like, I know Vic hates it.
6:32
Do you hate it?
6:33
Would you say you're like, no, I'm really not on board with that.
6:35
Yeah, I hate it.
6:36
Yeah, okay.
6:38
I mean, I would say I hate it because of what it is instilling.
6:44
But I also think, hey, if it's got us talking about money,
6:47
you know, if it's got us budgeting,
6:49
like the whole, if I buy it and share it with mum,
6:51
then it's 50% off, you know, that's kind of good thing.
6:55
There's an out and I'm meeting up 10%.
6:57
But, you know, very, very small.
6:59
But it's got people talking about money and spending money
7:02
and conscious about their spending behaviors,
7:04
which has always got to be good.
7:06
Yeah, totally right.
7:08
And also, you know, we do all do these things.
7:10
And if we shine the light on the like little chicks
7:13
and things that our brains do
7:15
and to have that conversation in a productive way,
7:17
like that could also be super useful.
7:19
So, yeah, there's a lot of good
7:20
that can come out of girl math.
7:22
But, yeah, as of right now, I hate it.
7:24
Yeah.
7:25
I love the stance, which I can't be serious.
7:27
What are you talking about?
7:28
I hate it.
7:29
Oh, I kind of want to hate it, but I don't.
7:31
I don't know, I think I'm in two minds
7:33
because I do, I fully see how problematic it is.
7:37
I kind of find it funny,
7:39
but I'm on board with unpacking it more
7:42
and changing my mind at the next conversation.
7:46
What, are you surprised?
7:47
But, you know, I'm just, yeah, I'm just, like,
7:49
surprised for someone who is so educated
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and, you know, very conscious about what they say,
7:55
you know, PC-wise in terms of making something
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I don't have any mind or, you know,
7:59
they don't make stereotypes all of that
8:01
for you to be like, oh, but I like the funniest part.
8:03
I don't know, I know it's nice to see you.
8:06
No, I think I like, I like, I like, excellent.
8:08
Yeah, I don't know.
8:09
I also just think, I don't know.
8:12
I think there's a part of me that is really on board
8:15
with the idea of sometimes we take everything so seriously,
8:20
but I also think the reason that I'm not on team,
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I hate it straight up is because I don't think I've delved
8:25
deep enough into understanding why,
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which is what I would love to talk to you about today,
8:30
because you've obviously done a lot of, like,
8:31
thinking around it and research around it
8:33
to try and articulate it in a way where, like,
8:36
those who think it's a trivial law can start to be like,
8:39
oh, I totally get it.
8:40
So I'm actually excited.
8:41
And I totally agree.
8:42
It's like when the world is constantly like,
8:45
oh, cost of living crisis, yeah,
8:46
we're all a bit stressed out of the moment with money
8:49
to have a laugh.
8:50
Can sometimes be quite nice, yeah.
8:53
So as someone who is very entrenched in the entire world
8:58
when it comes to economics, actually,
9:00
do you know what might be quite helpful to start with?
9:02
Could you explain what your job involves?
9:04
Does it basically mean you can zoom out to what's happening
9:07
from an economic lens and kind of predict what's happening?
9:10
Like, how does it, what does it mean?
9:12
Yeah, so I mean, there's heaps of different types
9:14
of economists, right?
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And I'm just, I'm just one little flavor,
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but I do, yeah, applied by core economics.
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So I have spent the majority of my career
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doing economic consulting,
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which pretty much just means when people have a problem
9:29
that are trying to work through your use,
9:31
economic ideas, economic frameworks
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to help them to work through that.
9:35
And that might be looking at whether a firm has the ability
9:39
and incentive to increase price,
9:40
depending on who asks the competing within the market,
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or it might be even looking at things
9:45
like real estate commissions and saying like,
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okay, if I was a real estate agent
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and this was my commission structure,
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I would have the incentive to do this, this and this,
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but not this, like maybe to sell as many houses
9:57
as possible because the extra effort that I take
9:59
to get more isn't worth it in the additional commission,
10:02
like breaking down the incentives of individual companies,
10:07
people.
10:08
I think I need a bit of a Victoria Harris explanation here,
10:11
sorry, no, not to sound rude,
10:12
but I think I've done even more for that.
10:14
I think so, correct me if I'm wrong,
10:17
but Brom will come into the curve and should be like,
10:19
is it worthwhile doing a podcast in terms of the revenue
10:22
that generates the audience to reach
10:25
or is it our time best spent doing something else
10:28
or should we increase our rate?
10:29
Is it kind of like that?
10:30
You're going in terms of it.
10:31
Yeah, totally.
10:32
And whereas there's micro-economics,
10:35
which is what you do and there's macro,
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which is looking at inflation, interest rates,
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all of that.
10:41
So definitely not doing that.
10:42
Why is gold math so problematic?
10:46
Can we break that down with some examples,
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things that you were like, okay,
10:52
I now can pinpoint why.
10:53
In fact, I hate this trend.
10:55
Yeah, okay, well, let me give it my best shot to convince you.
10:59
So there's no evidence that women are less capable in any way
11:03
or actually that there's any difference by any gender
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on math, science, engineering, technology,
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those kinds of things, finance.
11:12
There's a perception of that, right?
11:14
So for me, the starting point,
11:17
even though it's a bit selfish is like,
11:18
I find it personally annoying gold math
11:20
because I need people to have confidence
11:24
when they work with me that I,
11:26
the work that I've done is accurate,
11:27
the math that I've relied on is legitimate.
11:31
And so if there are,
11:32
if we're perpetuating a stereotype
11:34
that women are a bit worse with math,
11:36
a bit silly with their money,
11:37
then that affects me personally in my job.
11:41
Oh gosh.
11:42
And I think the reason that this hasn't been called out
11:44
that much before then is because there are so,
11:47
there is already such underrepresentation by women.
11:50
In economics and finance and things like that,
11:52
then there's just not that many of us to say,
11:54
like, hey, this is like personally affecting me.
11:58
So there's that.
11:59
But I think.
12:01
We'll be throwing this on from that.
12:02
Have you experienced overt sexism
12:06
when it comes to presenting an idea for a business
12:09
or your thoughts on something related to maths?
12:14
Quite unquote.
12:15
Oh yeah, totally.
12:15
What kind of, what sort of stuff have you experienced?
12:18
So when I was trying to find a supervisor
12:20
for my honest dissertation at uni,
12:23
the lecturer said to me,
12:24
oh, I don't, I don't take female students.
12:27
So like I couldn't actually do my research with him.
12:30
So that's one.
12:31
That was pretty crazy.
12:32
That's another story.
12:33
But more often, I mean, it doesn't happen.
12:35
How is it even allowed?
12:36
It's not really.
12:37
It's like saying, sorry, I don't take over weight people.
12:39
It's so, sorry, I don't take.
12:41
Blond hair.
12:42
Yeah, it's definitely not allowed.
12:45
But so that's one extreme example.
12:47
Do you have one?
12:48
Yeah.
12:49
Oh, but I can just tell I'm going to love this,
12:51
like, I don't know.
12:52
Fuck, Gomez.
12:53
But like more generally on the odd occasions,
12:57
someone will say to me, like,
12:58
oh, you work at blah, blah, economics.
13:02
But like, what do you do there?
13:04
And I'm like, oh, yeah, we do economic consulting.
13:07
And they say, yeah, but what do you do?
13:10
I'm like, yeah, I do economic consulting.
13:11
And they're like, ah.
13:13
It's like waiting for you to be like, oh, I'm the PA.
13:16
Yeah, totally.
13:17
Not that I'm sitting on the air, but just assuming
13:20
that you have a less senior job than you do.
13:22
Yeah, exactly.
13:24
Or other times I might be presenting something
13:26
and then I just notice the client might look to somebody else,
13:30
like more, I don't know, a male colleague
13:33
to ask a question about the numbers.
13:35
I'm like, I can answer that, actually.
13:37
More generally, I just think it results in like having
13:39
to buy your weight into every conversation.
13:41
Like, some people can turn up and automatically
13:44
have credibility in the room that they're in.
13:45
And I feel like I have to like earn it
13:48
by saying sensible things for a little while.
13:51
And then I start to notice people responding
13:53
more positively to me, not that they were responding negatively
13:56
to me before, but I just have to earn it every time
13:59
like a poker button, you know, and it's just annoying.
14:01
It's kind of like, we're already pushing shit up hill.
14:03
Like, give us a break.
14:05
Don't think through a girl math on top of us being like,
14:08
oh, you're actually shit with numbers.
14:09
You know, it's like, we have been fighting this battle
14:12
for generations to improve our financial literacy.
14:14
And then it's like, girl, math, you know.
14:17
I guess it's also like, if you think of any kind of racism
14:20
or it's as any minority where there's this like preconceived notion
14:25
that you are ex-wise is, you're having to work extra hard
14:29
to convince them otherwise and then prove yourself from there.
14:33
Like, you're not starting on equal pegging.
14:34
It's kind of kind of a hundred percent.
14:36
And there's so much research that those stereotypes
14:40
have like an actual effect, even though they're baseless.
14:45
Just the fact of them being around, I think,
14:47
in psychology, it's called a stereotype threat.
14:50
And it's basically the additional pressure
14:53
that you feel when you're in a situation
14:55
where you're part of a minority group.
14:57
You know there's a negative stereotype about you.
14:58
This could be totally subconscious or it could be conscious.
15:03
If you're in a position where you have an opportunity
15:05
to either perform well or to confirm
15:09
that that stereotype might be true,
15:11
that additional pressure will make people do worse.
15:13
So it's also a bit hypothetical.
15:16
But for example, if you ask a female in a classroom,
15:21
a maths question, and they know there's a stereotype
15:24
about being worse at maths, they feel the pressure
15:27
not only to like get the answer right for themselves,
15:30
but also that if they get it wrong,
15:32
they're confirming the idea that all women
15:35
are like a bit bad at maths.
15:36
And that additional pressure makes people do worse.
15:39
And the research should like really clear about that,
15:42
even like with kids as young as five.
15:45
I've definitely felt like that when I was,
15:47
but it was an age thing when I was younger and as well.
15:50
So actually, I don't want to ask a question
15:52
because I don't want to be a bad Christian
15:55
and you're going to be like, oh, she's terrible at that.
15:58
She doesn't know the answer, she's just asking a question.
16:01
So then you just feel this whole environment
16:03
of not asking Christians is not learning.
16:05
And yeah, it's kind of like, oh, I'm the young one.
16:08
So I'm not supposed to know.
16:10
And I don't know, you just, yeah, you kind of,
16:12
you're just sitting in the corner
16:13
and don't ask any Christians
16:15
and then you become worse off.
16:17
I remember being in Australia,
16:19
I just moved over for a job over there.
16:22
And I remember I was 23 and I was turning 24
16:27
and I was managing a team where like the talent
16:30
that were on air were like 28
16:32
and the other three producers I worked with
16:34
were all like about the same age.
16:35
So I was like significantly younger.
16:37
I remember it was my birthday and I hid it.
16:41
I like took it off my Facebook.
16:43
Someone sent something to work
16:44
and I like hid it under my desk.
16:45
I didn't want people to know that I was on age 24
16:48
because it's sort of someone's like,
16:49
it's your birthday, how old are you?
16:50
I was like, I just want to avoid that conversation
16:52
because I already feel out of debt from this role.
16:55
And they're just going to think
16:56
that I'm young and stupid and don't know anything.
16:58
And actually, I run a play that's like a job that I actually
17:00
and they just didn't mix anything.
17:02
Whereas that should be reframed though
17:05
in the fact that you've got this job
17:06
and you're so young is amazing.
17:08
And you know, yet the fact that we almost instill
17:11
that negative mindset of I shouldn't be here,
17:14
almost an imposter syndrome of I shouldn't be here
17:16
because I'm so young.
17:17
It's like, no, amazing you are here and you're so young.
17:20
Like flipping that narrative.
17:21
It's almost kind of back to what we're speaking about
17:24
of like any kind of marginalized groups.
17:25
There's also that internalized judgment.
17:27
And I guess that's kind of what you mean
17:29
with the, what's it called?
17:31
A stereotype threat.
17:32
Yeah.
17:33
And like you think of yourself in the same way
17:36
that you know other people are already thinking of you.
17:38
Yeah.
17:38
Or it could just be like totally subconscious
17:40
because things like the number of women in the room,
17:44
like the proportion of women in the room
17:45
when you're sitting at test can make a difference.
17:47
So women's test, just something is going on.
17:50
But I want to read a book about it.
17:51
It's crazy.
17:52
It's a video's book and he talks about,
17:54
oh, I can't remember the study they did,
17:56
but there was something to do with the tests they were taking
17:59
and they got to write means names or woman's names
18:01
and almost be this other person as you were taking a test.
18:04
Yeah.
18:05
And people that associated with the means name did better.
18:08
And I was just like, it's so crazy.
18:10
It's just little things like that.
18:11
If there's studies where like the examiners says,
18:15
oh, women usually do worse on this.
18:16
So like, good like girls or something.
18:19
Just like little things.
18:21
Can then result in women doing worse in that environment,
18:24
even controlling exactly for competency use.
18:28
So it's like, I've heard of that.
18:30
And it's like they said before you went in,
18:32
men tend to do better on this test than women.
18:34
Yeah.
18:35
And they go in and they say it's the same groups
18:37
at the same test.
18:37
And then in the other room, they're like,
18:39
women tend to do better on this test than men.
18:41
So they've instilled this stereotype in both groups
18:45
and subconscious bias.
18:47
Yeah, all you have to is like, I think they say like,
18:50
make gender salient like prime gender in some way
18:52
by doing an activity that relates to your gender or anything
18:56
like that.
18:57
And then you start to get an effect.
18:59
Yeah.
19:00
It's so crazy how subtle it is.
19:03
And so just little things like saying girl baths
19:06
around and about perpetuating these gender based stereotypes
19:10
can affect people's actual performance,
19:12
even though they're competent, equally competent.
19:16
And I've experienced it where I, like, at uni,
19:18
if I was like one of the few women in the class
19:21
and like, I get asked the question
19:22
and I might say something dumb.
19:23
And like, that could just be me saying something dumb.
19:25
But sometimes I've really felt like conscious
19:29
that it's been like a weird response from me
19:32
and gender related.
19:33
It's also putting the gender with it.
19:35
It doesn't need to, you never hear things like boy math
19:39
or, you know, that kind of thing.
19:40
And what really you sort of pass me off
19:43
was phrases like shio.
19:46
And it's like, you never hear of shio.
19:49
Or, you never hear, it's like Forbes most influential woman.
19:54
Yeah.
19:55
I was like, Forbes top female CEOs.
19:57
It's like, you never hear of top male CEOs.
20:00
It's just CEOs.
20:01
No, it's like Ronsafari.
20:02
Like, look, there's a woman in the wild succeeding.
20:05
You can bet, makes it so much worse.
20:08
Like, you really have stars, you're like,
20:10
you're going to be like, you're going to be like,
20:14
oh, like, God, she's our fish out of water.
20:16
That sounds okay, Shay.
20:18
So it's like, it's almost like by people
20:20
almost trying to highlight women who are doing well
20:24
in their space.
20:24
But rather than thinking that they're doing a positive,
20:27
it's inadvertently saying like, this is rare.
20:29
And they're whole women and all.
20:31
But this, girl math is like, that's bad enough.
20:34
But then girl math is like, girls being dumb, yeah?
20:38
Which is a hundred times worse.
20:40
We did a deep dive into gender stereotypes
20:44
for an article that I wrote.
20:45
And we were looking at how magazines and news articles
20:49
that are focused for men out all about grow your wealth,
20:52
entrepreneurship, investing, and how to make the most
20:56
of your money, whereas women's at all,
20:58
how to cut back and spending, how to save more
21:01
in all of this is so frustrating.
21:02
Have you, in my own thinking, you've got experience
21:04
in the space or have done something around the research
21:08
of the way in which media speaks to us?
21:10
Oh, I just, when I was writing my little rage blackout
21:13
about girl math, I researched it.
21:17
And I do have a degree in psychology,
21:19
so I've learnt some of this stuff before.
21:20
But mostly I just came across it when I was trying to look
21:25
at what made the consequences of this be.
21:28
And yeah, I found this really interesting study
21:30
about portrayal of women in visual media,
21:33
where it was done by some banks in the UK.
21:36
And they found that they just looked at the stock images,
21:40
you know, that companies use when they put out media.
21:43
And there was like disproportionate representations
21:46
of women like hugging piggy banks and being like child like
21:50
with respect to money or like, you know, really excitedly
21:53
like putting their coin in the piggy bank.
21:56
And whereas men obviously not the case.
22:01
And so they found like quite striking differences,
22:04
like four times the amount of child like images of women
22:08
with money.
22:08
And it's just self evident that that is going to perpetuate
22:13
the idea that women are less competent with their money.
22:16
And it has a real effect on people's like personal relationships,
22:20
the way they approach money with their partners,
22:21
the way they think about themselves.
22:23
But imagine like young girls seeing that as well.
22:26
Totally like growing up being like, oh, you know,
22:28
I've got a scrimper and say,
22:29
if I must hug my piggy bank, you know,
22:31
not I'm gonna go out there and invest my money and grow my wealth.
22:34
What was the response to your article when you put it out?
22:37
Was it mixed?
22:38
Was people were people like, yay, go you people like,
22:40
no, I like Gilmeth.
22:42
Is that like soft?
22:43
It was mostly like positive.
22:45
But I think that the people.
22:47
Positive for Gilmeth.
22:48
No, sorry, positive like, you know,
22:50
I had quite a few people messaging to say like,
22:52
ah, someone's what we were saying at the start like,
22:55
I didn't like Gilmeth,
22:57
but I couldn't put my finger on it like,
22:58
thank you for articulating the problem.
23:01
Or just sharing their like own stories
23:03
of struggling with like the perception
23:05
that women are a bit worse and blah, blah, blah.
23:07
That's been good.
23:08
I'm sure that like a bunch of people
23:10
have been thinking he like, oh, you know,
23:13
it's just a bit of fun like, you know,
23:15
where's who PC like Shush Bronwyn,
23:17
but they tended not to say.
23:18
You're actually the sweetest human in that.
23:20
I'm Shush Bronwyn, everything you say is just like,
23:23
Shush, who's sweet?
23:25
Don't you think?
23:26
No, I can't imagine you going in with companies
23:28
or like talking, you know, like, yeah.
23:29
No, I just can't imagine you ever being like,
23:31
this like, it's funny because when you read it,
23:33
you're like, is that a stereotype in it?
23:35
Yes, I would start to be like, oh my god,
23:37
you just told her, you basically just caught yourself
23:39
doing exactly what she's saying.
23:40
You're like, fuck Gilmeth.
23:42
But I mean, you know, I like to think
23:44
that we can all get there in our own ways
23:46
and like it's good to be yourself and stuff like that,
23:48
but it is challenging because people do say that to me,
23:50
like, oh, you seem like, you know,
23:52
it's not like I can't imagine you being rude.
23:57
But that's kind of exactly it though.
23:58
So we relate the idea of economy
24:01
and power and power and all of that stuff
24:05
with masculine energy and with male role models.
24:08
So it's almost like, why can't it coexist?
24:10
That she's like a lovely, sweet,
24:12
kind of beautiful human that's also incredibly good
24:15
at her job, you know, it's like, but that's exactly what.
24:18
It's a bit higher, yeah.
24:20
And the trouble is that there's just less women doing it
24:23
because there's less women studying maths
24:26
like at high school, there's less kids studying economics
24:29
that are women because they don't see it represented
24:32
and it just perpetuates the cycle
24:34
and then it's just a little bit harder, you know,
24:37
it's just frustrating.
24:39
Can we also just go through some of the other points
24:42
that you brought up in this article and reasons
24:44
and why it, you know, cause I think I want more examples
24:48
or more like ways that I can bring this up
24:51
in conversation and be confident in being like,
24:54
no, girl math is problematic because of exercise.
24:56
And I think the stereotype thing makes so much sense to me.
25:00
Yeah, are there any other angles
25:01
that you spoke about in the article that might?
25:04
I think that other thing is like, I totally agree
25:07
that it's nice to have a life
25:08
and it's also nice to acknowledge that like,
25:11
we do all do these things.
25:12
It's probably helpful to have a conversation about that
25:15
and identify times where we might be driven by emotion
25:18
to spend some money that we didn't really probably have.
25:22
That's all good stuff.
25:24
But on social media, we know like young people
25:27
are disproportionately like learning from social media
25:31
and I think there's a real risk
25:34
that people see this girl math thing
25:36
and it's normalizing the idea of like being flippant
25:41
and disengaging from your finances in a way
25:43
that's counterproductive really when like young people
25:46
are struggling, you know, it's not so easy to buy
25:49
house these days, our generation and the one coming
25:53
and they worried about the future,
25:55
they worried about climate change
25:57
and like what that's gonna do.
25:59
And we should be supporting them as best we can.
26:03
And I think that there's a real danger
26:05
when these trends come on social media
26:08
and they're not supported by like other conversations
26:12
that people just think, oh, that's right, you know,
26:15
I can buy this thing that's flippant enough
26:17
that I'm saving money, which could be true
26:20
if you were gonna buy it at full price anyway.
26:22
That's not necessarily wrong.
26:24
But if it creates a culture where you're normalizing
26:27
making decisions that aren't really in your best interest
26:30
and I think that could be quite harmful.
26:32
Yeah, no, I totally agree.
26:33
And I think I'd love to talk about other limitations
26:36
and biases that are when it comes to money in general
26:40
and for personal finances
26:41
because I think girl math is one thing.
26:43
Is there other problematic biases or stereotypes
26:47
or ways that we as a society are functioning
26:50
that is actually quite detrimental to us as a gender?
26:53
I mean, I don't know if it's even specific to a gender.
26:57
We all have like lots of information coming in, right?
27:00
And we know that like our brain uses ways
27:02
to process that information like as easily as possible
27:05
and some of those little like shortcuts
27:08
that our brains use don't result in like
27:12
necessarily the most optimal decision.
27:14
And one of the most common ones is called present bias.
27:17
And that's where you overweight the present state
27:20
and disregard the future or you.
27:23
And finance sends you attach a really little interest rate
27:25
to the present value of your future things.
27:28
And so for example, you might use by now, pay later
27:32
and think, I'll just figure it out.
27:35
Or you might just like weigh up a decision
27:37
in the wrong way, you might overly focus on benefits
27:41
that have been now and not necessarily into the future.
27:44
Because you're overconfident
27:46
that you'll be able to figure it out in the future
27:48
and it's also like, you know, a future problem's problem.
27:51
So you don't necessarily like focus on that.
27:55
And that's a really common thing that's that like we all do.
28:00
It's like with eating healthy.
28:02
You're like, oh, I can just have that non-healthy lollipop now
28:06
and then don't realize you can have repercussions
28:09
of having bad teeth and bad health down the track.
28:12
Because you're like, I want to prioritize presentness
28:14
and present value.
28:15
It's like the gratification that you always talk about that.
28:18
And I think it's something that I guess
28:21
when it comes to finances or money,
28:22
it is that compounding effective things.
28:24
It's like, you don't buy the coffee now.
28:26
You don't buy the top now.
28:28
You don't do all of these things.
28:29
And like they all culminate.
28:30
But like when you make one small decision in the moment,
28:33
without really thinking about the magnification
28:36
of what that's going to mean in a year's time or two or five,
28:40
lots of those kinds of decisions can be really dangerous.
28:43
How do you say that?
28:44
And it's like the value of that dinner
28:46
of not going out and spending $100 on dinner and drinks
28:50
is actually not, it's $100 in the present value,
28:52
but it's not $100 in the future.
28:53
Yeah.
28:54
You've actually spent, even though you've spent $100,
28:57
you've actually spent $1,000 in the future
28:59
or whatever it is.
28:59
Yeah, you're compounding.
29:01
Yeah, you're opportunity cost is going high.
29:03
But you don't think about it.
29:04
Because you're whatever it is for dinner and it's fine.
29:07
And you're in the moment.
29:08
And by the way, you'll figure it out.
29:10
You're going to earn heaps of money in the future.
29:11
You know, we're all a bit overconfident about that.
29:15
We get to say a lot around how do you balance current
29:18
you versus future you?
29:19
Because we're always like, say for your future,
29:21
say for your 20 year holiday,
29:22
which we've rebranded retirement made it 20 year holiday.
29:26
But in terms of, and it's a hard one,
29:27
because at one point when you're younger,
29:30
you've got no dependence, you know,
29:33
you've got probably no mortgage.
29:36
You're in probably one of the most freest periods of your life.
29:40
And yet you're being told to save and not travel
29:43
and not spend on things.
29:44
And so it's this whole dichotomy.
29:47
But yeah, welcome to life, everyone.
29:48
Yeah, it's so hard.
29:51
Because economics they would also say,
29:53
well, when you're young, you should borrow
29:55
because your income's going to go up.
29:57
But your time is going to go down.
29:59
So, you know, have fun when you're like really young,
30:02
at least, and borrow and, you know, pay for your union
30:06
and like take a job that gives your experience.
30:08
So it makes you know money because that will pay off over time
30:12
and you can do it now.
30:13
So they have this income smoothing idea.
30:15
But you can't do that forever, right?
30:17
That's at some point you come to the point
30:18
where your income has the compensate for the debt
30:20
that you've accrued and all that stuff.
30:22
And it's really hard.
30:24
Yeah.
30:25
What do you think in terms of like your pregnant?
30:28
Yeah.
30:28
Do you have a girl, currently?
30:30
I have a girl, and I'm having another girl.
30:32
Okay, yeah.
30:33
So in terms of thinking about that next generation
30:35
and for you personally, how this girl maths is
30:39
what you hope to see change by it, hopefully being cautioned,
30:43
you know, dying a very fast death
30:45
and not being something we talk about every again.
30:47
From yeah, like a future generation personal,
30:49
like bringing girls up in the world,
30:51
how does that make you feel and why is it so important?
30:53
Yeah, totally.
30:54
Like I'm really, I think that I wouldn't have written it.
30:57
That sounds cheesy, but like maybe I wouldn't have written it
30:59
or been so annoyed if I didn't have a daughter and half.
31:05
And I just, yeah, I want it to be better for them
31:08
when they come through.
31:10
And there's so much stuff about like raising women,
31:15
like who like themselves.
31:16
I think there's a book pretty much called
31:18
like raising girls who like themselves.
31:20
And it's totally related to the point
31:22
that I love to read that book about
31:23
and this is being encouraged to be like,
31:26
be bold with your finances and that kind of thing.
31:28
Similarly, you know, we encourage boys to like give it a try
31:34
and women to like be careful.
31:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:38
I don't hurt yourself even that phrase of like running
31:40
when you're running out of doors.
31:41
Oh, be careful.
31:42
Don't hurt yourself.
31:43
Yeah, it's like everything we do is like everything.
31:45
They're just no one to get home safe.
31:46
You know, like it's like, I mean, I get it
31:47
because like lovely enough, someone says to me,
31:49
I'm like, that's really nice.
31:50
But do you say that to guys?
31:51
Probably not, because it will be like these delicate flowers
31:54
that just like get squashed.
31:56
Yeah, I'm sort of a, yeah.
31:58
So yeah, totally plays into it.
32:00
Like I was lucky.
32:01
My mom, as a math teacher, so I was like raised
32:04
by her teaching me math said like,
32:07
I never had this idea that women were bad at math
32:10
because I learned from my mom,
32:11
but even still it affected me.
32:13
And so I'm conscious of that, conscious of wanting
32:16
to give my daughters the best chance possible
32:19
and hopefully like them having a slightly less biased world
32:24
to walk into about we have to be realistic.
32:28
But there's so many people doing awesome stuff
32:29
in the space like you and this podcast.
32:31
And we just need things like Gomez to get out of the way
32:34
so that it doesn't get in the way of progress like that.
32:38
Get out of the way, Gomez.
32:40
I actually saw a funny thing.
32:41
It was about boy myth.
32:43
And it was yeah, talking.
32:44
It was like boy myth as we in a diocese
32:46
that he's six, two, but he's actually five days.
32:49
Yeah, five days.
32:51
I love that.
32:53
It was like go viral, go viral.
32:54
Honestly though, like if you're using a dating app
32:56
and someone sees that they're like six foot,
32:58
they're 100% not six foot.
33:00
Or if there's no height on their ex-hike, oh.
33:03
Yeah, why haven't you put your height?
33:05
Often I was doing, and I'm like,
33:06
how long are the legs?
33:07
According to the stool there's a dating next to you,
33:10
you know, like we're just so excited.
33:11
No, it's just that I'm quite tall.
33:13
And it's fine, you know, whatever.
33:14
I don't need to do someone taller than me.
33:15
How tall is the guy you're dating now?
33:17
Shut up.
33:18
Fuck, fucking yeah.
33:21
Slofie has ripped into my dating app
33:22
for so long and finally she's dating someone.
33:25
She's loving the chance to like actually really call me up.
33:28
He's like six feet in?
33:29
Six feet tall.
33:30
Yeah, six feet tall.
33:31
Yeah, whatever.
33:32
Anyway, I had, I'm renting out my house at the moment
33:35
and someone came over to assess whether it'll be,
33:39
you know, I wanted to do short term kind of
33:40
your B&B style and this person came over as agent
33:43
and he instantly said,
33:44
my boyfriend was there at the time and he started.
33:47
I know, I'm on the podcast.
33:50
Does anyone else have a boyfriend like?
33:53
Oh, I just don't casualize it.
33:55
No, I'm not.
33:56
Oh, I'm not.
33:57
Anyway, my friend, my friend, sorry.
34:01
But I was like, man, we're sitting there just working
34:04
around the table and the agent keeps talking to him.
34:08
And he was looking there uncomfortable
34:09
because he's like, this isn't my house.
34:11
Like, why are you talking to me and giving all, it was so weird.
34:14
And I should have said something, but I kind of didn't.
34:17
Did you not?
34:18
No, I was just panicking.
34:18
Situation.
34:19
Yeah, look at me, you look at me.
34:22
And he's like, how long have you two lived here?
34:24
And I just always, yeah, I don't know.
34:26
It was quite.
34:27
My god, I really think next year,
34:28
you need to put your foot down and be like,
34:29
this is actually my house, I don't know.
34:30
Yes, it's not.
34:32
Yeah, talk to me.
34:33
It's so hard.
34:33
Correct those questions.
34:34
And that's right.
34:35
You also don't want to be.
34:36
Make them uncomfortable.
34:37
Make them work.
34:38
I know, and also we're told to be like, nice and cute
34:41
and don't make a fuss and people will like you.
34:44
We actually had an interesting conversation
34:46
with Dr. Rebecca Ray about this.
34:47
And it was the idea that, and it's probably similar
34:50
to the self perpetuating girl math, toxic trenders,
34:53
like how we have been told for so long to be liked.
34:58
You basically can't be rude, you can't be this,
35:00
you can't be that.
35:01
And so boundaries are kind of just not something
35:03
that we talk about or can seem to comment
35:05
without coming across as aggressive blunt, etc.
35:11
And I just, it was a real mind blowing moment for me.
35:14
And it can totally affect your personal relationships
35:17
as well, this whole thing, like some of my friends
35:20
that after they read the article they said,
35:22
oh, they started sharing that there was a perception
35:26
that their partner would be more in control
35:29
and then they had to maybe be seen to be a bit aggressive
35:33
to even not even the score, but to get an equal footing
35:37
when it comes to personal finances
35:38
within their relationship and had to kind of stick their neck out.
35:42
In fear of, I don't know, sitting there
35:45
in a relationship backwards, but it's important
35:49
if you want to have, I mean, you know,
35:51
there's a million ways to structure your personal finances
35:53
with your partner or not.
35:55
But just the perception that women are not as good with money,
36:00
then has an effect on like putting you on the back foot
36:02
and it may be in your personal relationship
36:06
and then, you know, having to risk being seen
36:07
to be aggressive just to get equal conversation going.
36:12
Like that's just, you're just like you said,
36:14
you put it pushing, should it help?
36:15
Yeah, it's like, oh, I'm not going to contribute
36:17
to the financial conversations in the household
36:20
or with my partner because I've been told for so many years
36:22
that I'm terrible with money
36:25
because women are terrible with money.
36:26
I think that I do that a lot though
36:28
and even saying things like, oh, I'm bad with maps
36:30
or I'm bad with this, but you know, but even that,
36:34
because then every time I have to go and get myself
36:36
somewhere or find directions or whatever,
36:38
I'm like, oh, I'm bad at maps or someone else do it.
36:41
It's like you constantly reinforcing these narratives
36:43
that like, now you all may not be true
36:46
and also can be, yeah, it comes down to everything
36:48
and the way in which that we, as you were saying earlier,
36:51
then perform in certain areas, you know,
36:53
like because I self-identify as a shit driver
36:55
and bad at directions, I'm probably going to continue
36:58
to be a shit driver and bad at directions.
37:00
Yeah, really?
37:01
If I was like, yeah, just because I'm a woman,
37:03
doesn't mean I can't be real good at finance as a money.
37:05
I, yeah, I don't know, it's interesting
37:08
how powerful language can be.
37:09
Yeah, I can say the language that you use to yourself
37:12
and point even one of my old colleagues,
37:14
he always used to say, oh, you can't do it yet.
37:18
And like just the idea, like you can, you know,
37:20
you can learn that thing, you can learn how to be good at maps,
37:23
you can learn to improve your finances, etc.
37:25
Yeah, we used to say that when people would be like,
37:27
what do you do?
37:28
And we're like, oh, we just have a financial education platform.
37:31
We always used to do it.
37:33
And then as soon as we were actually away on holiday
37:35
and we were like, practicing it, we were walking,
37:37
we were walking down the street and we were like,
37:39
okay, let's just practice ourselves in this situation.
37:42
And so that's like, what do you do for work?
37:43
And we're like, we have a financial education platform,
37:46
you know, and we're like, I'm just repeating it again
37:48
without saying just in the amount of time
37:50
to go to say just, yeah, it stumps it down
37:53
and it makes it so insignificant.
37:55
And it's like, no, own it.
37:56
And it's with everything in life, it's, yeah,
38:00
it's making it, yeah, having, yeah.
38:02
I take it back, I hate Gomez.
38:03
Yeah, we do.
38:04
Yeah, I'm on board, I hate Gomez.
38:07
One thing I want to know is about how do we stop ourselves
38:12
or be more conscious about the stereotypes?
38:14
Because we've just done it.
38:15
We're in a podcast talking about breaking down
38:17
the stereotype and we've literally called ourselves
38:20
in the last half an hour.
38:21
How do we be more conscious of the things that we are saying
38:25
and in fact, if they have on people?
38:27
It's so hard.
38:28
I mean, I don't know, I'm not an expert in these things,
38:30
but my guess is that the best way is to have
38:36
more representation by women in finance, maths, economics
38:42
so that we don't think it, because we all think it.
38:45
And it's great if you can catch yourself doing it
38:48
and go like, whoops, because that's awesome.
38:51
But I really feel like until we have more representation.
38:55
And it's not just gender representation, it's not.
38:58
Or cultures, ethnicities, backgrounds, ages, stages,
39:02
whatever.
39:03
Yeah.
39:04
Yeah.
39:05
I wonder if there's anyone listening
39:07
or they know someone listening who might want to get in touch
39:11
and be like, hey, I was thinking maybe I wanted to start
39:13
a career in this or like, I've been to talking to people
39:15
about what that experience is like.
39:16
100%.
39:17
If anyone wants to talk about what it's like to work in economics
39:21
or anything that we spoke about,
39:23
like, yeah, I'm there.
39:25
And I'll put the link to your article in our podcast,
39:28
so if someone wants to read it,
39:30
they can be like, the article, the article.
39:32
Oh, my goodness.
39:32
Fuck as the article.
39:34
All the views and the reads, going like skyrocketing.
39:38
But yeah, thank you so much for sharing.
39:40
And I'm so sorry about the times in which the last hour
39:44
I have shot down you and your career based on what you look like.
39:49
Yeah, we could do better than that.
39:51
We can.
39:52
No, thank you so much for having me.
39:53
I'm a such a huge fan of your podcast, so that's really cool.
39:56
Well, it's really cool for me to be here.
39:58
Yeah, okay, amazing.
39:59
And if anyone wants to find out more about what
40:01
you do is the where's the best way for that is it linked in
40:03
the best way to contact you?
40:05
Yeah, I guess I shouldn't put my, tell you my mobile number.
40:08
What's your dream?
40:10
And make our license later.
40:12
Bromwood Taylor, it says something like Auckland economist
40:16
or something.
40:17
Well, she's Bromwood Taylor from the comments
40:19
to miss answer.
40:20
That's right.
40:21
Also, if anybody is listening, see something like an amazing article
40:26
or has someone talk on a different podcast or reads a book,
40:29
like it's so nice to get recommendations of people
40:32
that you think would be interested in talking to
40:34
and that you want to hear us interview,
40:36
because this was totally not our idea.
40:37
And we're very grateful for the person who couldn't do it.
40:41
Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve.
40:43
These conversations are designed to teach you everything
40:46
that you need to know to be better with your money,
40:48
from saving, to investing, to talking to your friends
40:51
about your salaries.
40:52
And if you liked what you heard, we would love it.
40:54
If you could hit the subscribe button, please.
40:56
Yes, please.
40:57
Better yet, leave a review.
40:59
It all takes five seconds, and it would really make our week.
41:02
Oh yeah, our month.
41:03
OK, lots of love.
41:04
See you soon.
41:05
Bye.