Latest / Cobra Lily / Fear and Loathing at Marine Corps Boot Camp
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- Guy: I saw this video that compared The misogyny of James Bond, the misogyny of Andrew Tate. And I thought it was so fascinating. like sure he thought of them as just kind of like sexual objects who like were unable to resist his advances, but at least he like still had some level of connection to women versus the Andrew Tate style misogyny nowadays where it's like women aren't even a part of your life whatsoever they both suck, but I think it really points to this shift in development of misogyny over the years Ella Simone: Yeah, there's a guy called Myron Gaines who has the Fresh and Fit podcast, which is a big red pill podcast. And he put out some video recently about how it's gay to live with a woman. So we've really lost the plot here with this modern reactionary Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: anti-feminism with young men. I read a similar study about how boomer men are actually less misogynistic than Gen Z men. And I think there's still time to change that. But yikes like Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: my God. Like that's really bad. Maria: Hello everybody, this is Maria and welcome back to the Cobra Lily podcast. How are you doing, Ella and Guy? Ella Simone: I'm doing good, Maria. I'm kind of battling a cold after a weekend of of debauchery, but I'm here and my will to podcast is very strong. Maria: No me too. I'm very excited to be doing this episode. This has become many, many pages of discussion, Ella Simone: and we're bringing in a highly esteemed guest today. Guy: Yep. Lots of experience being a guy over here. But yeah. I know. Ella Simone: So much so that your name is literally Guy. We have Maria's boyfriend Guy on, everybody. His name is literally Guy, and we're talking about men, so nominal determinism Guy: crazy. Apparently people Ella Simone: strikes again. Guy: I was named for this. Ella Simone: this episode kind of started to come together because Maria mentioned this book being on the bookshelf of none other than our esteemed guest Guy. Guy: Dude, esteemed guest is crazy. Ella Simone: Maria, when you told me that Guy had this book, I was like, that's so based. It's called The Will to Change by Bell Hooks. The subtitle is Men, Masculinity and Love. and it's basically a feminist's point of view on how patriarchy harms men and how feminism could do better to include men. And I guess we should talk about who Bell Hooks was. Do you want to go into that, Maria? Maria: Yeah, absolutely. She was a pioneer in intersectional feminism and she paints a really clear picture of all the forces that support and enable the patriarchy to continue. we don't really do a great job of talking about how the patriarchy hurts men. Women are the victims, men are the villains, period. And that doesn't actually create any level of discussion, right? We wanna actually be bringing people in and invoking real change, And it just pushes men further away from feminism. Guy: No, and I can remember I mean, so I was about twelve when I mean in twenty ten I was twelve. So I was this is just when social media was starting to become a thing. And I remember when I was like fourteen, I would go on Twitter and I would read like all of these posts of like, kill all men, like men are disgusting, like ex Ella Simone: Yes. Guy: wise and I had the thought of like damn when I go to school is this what like every girl is thinking and then I was like on the football Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: team so I would go to football practice and have this completely different perspective I remember it being so confusing and just thinking like well I'm not gonna make anyone happy so what am I really gonna do? Ella Simone: Yeah, I was super feminist as a teenager. I I was really into like Riot Girl, Punky, Bikini Kill, feminism. but even then I was like questioning whether what I was reading about feminism really was focused on finding an actionable solution in the real world the kill all men, men are trash phenomenon of the late 2010s to early twenties, was kind of what radicalized me against feminism when I'd identified with it for so long. Because I grew up in DC and I grew up around people in politics. So I always had an awareness of political messaging, not just what you're saying, but how are you saying it and are you saying it to the right audience and do you recognize who your audience is? as I was coming of age during the Me Too movement in like the late 2010s. I graduated high school in 2020. I was starting to see real flaws in feminist messaging, which had become super dominant in the media. It it was just so abrasive and so antagonistic toward men that I realized That this is gonna backfire. I was like, Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: this is not gonna go well. We're constantly criticizing men for how they sit, the man spreading thing, how they talk, man splaining, everything Guy: Yeah. Yeah. Ella Simone: that they do, the Me Too movement has kind of laid this canopy of paranoia over male and female like sexual relationships, and it's already awkward as fuck to be 17 and talk to girls anyway. Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: And I predicted that it would have a major backfire and seeing the red pill movement become arguably just as big as that, I I think my sense was correct. Guy: Yeah. Maria: yeah. I was raised by a woman who was a lawyer on Wall Street and she worked in the White House. So she was this extremely fancy lady who very much promoted girl boss feminism. I had this relationship with my father who was an engineer and he pushed me to be in physics. So I kind of got dominated by that girl boss feminism at a very young age. And Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: Same. Maria: then I got older and I started to go into these spaces that were male and it was viscerally uncomfortable. And I also at the time was realizing that physics was not the correct space for me for a lot of different reasons, but I started to experience the real bits of sexism that they were talking about. And it really just radicalized me further into hating men, but also deeply wanting to please them and fit in with my peers. Ella Simone: Yeah, I was definitely turned off by girl boss feminism, which was very rampant in our nation's capital where I grew up. And I really didn't have corporate ambitions. I was like, I don't want to do any of this. even before I got into feminism, I was really into critiquing capitalism. I got into that when I was a early adolescent, I would say. I was like, isn't this just capitalism for women? I didn't see how it was a good solution. I was like, no, no, no, capitalism makes women of us all. Capitalism like Maria: Yeah. Ella Simone: doesn't really discriminate against gender in that it flattens everyone into like a powerless worker. So I was just seeing this as kind of this unholy alliance between Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: ambitious opportunistic women and capitalism, which is not to villainize female CEOs and say that they're bad people but I just saw it as marching in lockstep with heightened capitalism. So I took issue with that from the beginning. Guy: it's this core idea that your value is directly proportional to your level of material success in the world. Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: I think since we're talking about economic systems, let's start by describing the patriarchy because it's not just about like how we feel. It's like this political social system. So somebody go ahead and tell us what is the patriarchy. Guy: It's a whole system of thought that essentially says that you need to carry forth this narrative as a man, that you need to be completely in control of your environment at all times, and that you need to exert your will on the world. and if you can't do that, then that's your fault and not the fault of any other system. it's almost like the ultimate form of ownership, it's like you have to own everything, no matter how out of your control it actually is, it's always on you. And it very predictably is impossible to actually uphold. And I think a lot of the problems that come from it are all downstream from that. Ella Simone: yes, patriarchy is basically a political social system that insists that men are inherently dominating, they're superior to everyone deemed beneath them, And it is their right to dominate and rule over the weak and maintain that dominance, because that's the natural order of things. Let's go into the nature versus nurture of it all before we even get to her main points in this book, because that kind of lays the groundwork for what Belle Hooks was challenging when she wrote this in two thousand four. So the nature argument is what's described as gender essentialism, which is the belief that men and women have these fixed, innate and unchangeable biological or psychological natures. Another word they use is biological determinism, which is assuming that chromosomes, hormones, anatomy directly dictate behavior and personality of s and skills of both men and women. So there's a strict binary view. men have these qualities, like men are protectors and providers, women have these qualities, women are nurturers and carers or whatever. It also tends to kind of loop in this. pseudo-spiritual idea of the divine masculine, the divine feminine, these universal qualities associated with masculinity and femininity. And this makes me think of this masculine energy versus feminine energy TikTok stuff that's been trendy for about a year that I see everywhere. I also have like encyclopedic knowledge of Internet dating advice I don't know, I watch it like a weird, like, psychological way. I'm more interested in why the people are saying what they're saying versus what they're actually saying. But I've been watching this stuff for years, and over the past year, this huge trend I've seen is is this. introduction to these concepts of masculine energy and feminine energy. And now there's all these feminine energy coaches, which is like the most Maria: Yeah. Ella Simone: grifty thing ever, that have popped up all around TikTok. A lot of this is appealing to 14 year olds, but I'm just saying that Bell Hoax was talking about this in 2004 and we're seeing the implications of it in 2026. Maria: No, and whenever I see those videos too, the first thing I think of is like these are just different forms of psychological manipulation that are playing on Guy: Yeah. Maria: gender norms. Right? Like Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Maria: and and like there was this woman called like Shira Seven or something like that, and she talks about she sprinkle, sprinkle lady. my god, she cr I love that woman so much. Like like Ella Simone: Sprinkle sprinkle. I love her too, but you can't take her seriously. She has a hustler Maria: No, she is Ella Simone: mindset. Maria: She does. I love that you said hustler mindset because that's the idea. It's like banking on the fact that people have these natural insecurities that are perpetuated by the patriarchy. what you were kind of saying, guy, about how men have that base insecurity of not being able to protect and provide. And you prey Guy: Yeah. Maria: on that and also give them the opportunity to be the ultimate man. Like Guy: yeah. Maria: it's like nurture his weakness and become his strength mentality. Guy: Yeah. I do I'm glad Ella Simone: Make his pockets hurt. Guy: you brought that up, Ella. I have Maria: Make it hurt. Guy: so much to say about online dating advice for men. I think a lot of these online dating advice channels are geared towards men who don't have a lot of success in dating. Ella Simone: Definitely. Guy: I totally got pipelined when I was a teenager. And then I got to college, got a girlfriend, ironically, by just being myself and not following their advice. And then I kinda like, okay, so this is actually just bullshit. it kinda pisses me off 'cause I feel like the advice is designed to not actually help men form genuine relationships with women. Ella Simone: yeah. Guy: And like keep them on this treadmill of not having success and coming back to these channels. It's such a self-fulfilling prophecy with dating too, because it's like there's enough women out there who do actually subscribe to these patriarchal values of what a man should be that there is a market for it. So it's like if you act like how they suggest around women, you'll attract those kinds of women who won't be comfortable with you being emotionally vulnerable and will want you to keep up the facade that you're keeping on. And then when you do try to be emotionally vulnerable, they'll reject you. And then you'll come to the conclusion like, yeah, all women are actually like this. These people are completely right and back on the treadmill you go. Maria: what is the advice that's out there for these men? Guy: they're outlining this show that you have to put on, this mask that you have to adopt. And I think that's at the core Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: of a lot of this kind of thinking is this separation between what you actually think and feel on a day-to-day basis and what you feel like you're allowed to really show to the world. I grew up in a very like patriarchal household that like really pushed all of these ideals and I remember like from a very young age my dad was always on me about don't cry, don't you ever cry in public. Like that was like the worst thing. it was always about keeping up an image, keeping up a certain presentation Ella Simone: Yeah, it's just kind of reinforcing old school ideas of like drive a nice car and like make a lot of money and peacock to other men and get as many bitches as you can. It's not really it's not really saying anything we haven't heard before, but I I would say there's a ramped up materialism to it. Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: I would say it's very bitter. It's very angry and misogynistic and It's basically just framing feminism as the culprit for why you're not doing well and saying feminists want you to be a weak-need soy boy, and Andrew Tate, daddy's gonna direct you home and tell you who you actually are, which is like an alpha waiting to be realized as an alpha. Guy: Yeah. Maria: So this is not my lived experience. It is my friend's lived experience. So she was with this guy who believed that women actually didn't want to be independent, we didn't want all those things. The only reason we actually thought that way is because we've been radicalized by the way that we grew up. Like this is the natural way of life. Women would actually be happier doing this, but because we were raised in girl boss society, we don't even realize how unhappy we are. Which I think is something that constantly gets played in these red pill channels. Like women actually don't know that they would be happier if we were in charge. And it kind of sidesteps the ability of women to say We don't fucking like that. And And that's what's so dumb too, because so much of what we consider the natural way of life has shifted depending on what our society likes. I was listening to this book Called The Very Secret Sex Lives of Medieval Women. It's really interesting. But in there, they talk about how in that society women were considered the lustful ones. Like women are far more lustful than men. And there's a passage in the book where she essentially says, if you're in a marriage with a woman and the woman says, I'm taking a vow of chastity, and you go and complain to the priest, the priest will say, Congratulations on having such a pious woman. It's so amazing that she can control her lustful urges and never want to. sex with you for the entirety of your marriage and that was just that. Yeah. Ella Simone: Whoa. Maria: Yeah, exactly. Right? Because like that was a society Guy: One. Maria: where your value was determined so much on your pious nature because of the religion of it all. Right? So Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: this idea of the natural way of life it just shifts to what will allow men to continue to dominate and be in power. If you're more pious, you have more power. If you are more sexual, you have more power in this extremely sexual culture that we're having. Ella Simone: Yes, I watched a video about a year ago chronicling the various crises of masculinity that have happened throughout history because every twenty years we're having a crisis of masculinity apparently. Camille Polly, another feminist writer, wrote in ninety-two, ever since man emerged from the dominance of nature, masculinity has been the most fragile and problematic of psychic states. Maria: Mm. Ella Simone: So we don't really know what it is. I'm gonna go into the biology of how certain masculine traits are not necessarily all socially constructed, but masculinity itself is extremely dependent on the time in which it exists. I skimmed over this book called T, The Story of Testosterone, The Hormone That Dominates and Divides Us by this lecturer. And co-director of Harvard's undergraduate studies in human evolutionary biology, Carol Hooven. I'll just go over the key points of the book. Healthy adult males have 10 to 20 times the amount of testosterone than females, which helps explain differences in muscle mass, bone density, libido, competitive motivation, some forms of aggression. Because males historically Had to compete more directly for mates, natural selection has has favored traits such as high status seeking, more risk tolerance, stronger interest in sexual novelty, and stronger aggression. So there's a question there of how much of this is testosterone, how much of this is natural selection favoring the more aggressive male who can like compete harder for mates and then produce more offspring. This is a really key point though. Testosterone doesn't make people irrational or violent. It just increases motivation to pursue status. It heightens sensitivity to social competition. it can promote cooperation and generosity when those behaviors are the best way to gain or maintain status. And that kind of depends on what context you're living in. Guy: Yeah, so actually like two days ago. I saw this really fascinating video essay by this guy who was in the Marines. It's called Marine Corps Boot Camp is Stupid and Spiritually Deprived. Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: He Guy: But it basically goes into how boot camp kind of sets up this very artificial kind of society where You don't have to make any decisions, all you have to do is follow orders. And that can be very difficult, but it's also very simple. he talked about how There's recruits of high ability and recruits of low ability. So like how well you could manage the stressors that were foisted on you. recruits who could really easily handle the situation tended to buy into the system more than recruits who couldn't. And I think it really goes to show how self perpetuating the system is that if the only thing we value in society is competence, then the people who are competent are gonna have the most power and competence Is very subjective. 'cause like this guy kind of put himself in the low competence group, but you can tell just from watching the video, he is incredibly insightful, incredibly like able to dissect the situation that he's in and point out all the flaws. But in the Marine Corps, that's not something that's valued. The only thing that's valued is how well you can follow orders. he's kind of the pariah of everyone in the system when if he was in academia he would probably be just at the top of his class. Ella Simone: If he was in the indie music scene in Richmond, Virginia, he'd be killing it. Guy: Exactly. Exactly. Maria: Mm-hmm. Guy: So I I think it just goes to show how like artificial this system we've created actually is. if you artificially place people into something they don't really care about or aren't suited for, they're gonna fail, obviously. And I think that's the story of so many men, and especially men who I think seek out these dating videos, where it's like they're trying so hard to become something, they just fundamentally aren't. that's what's turning people off, not just who they are naturally. Ella Simone: Yeah, so I read this study called Testosterone Promotes Either Dominance or Submissiveness in the Ultimatum Game, depending on players' social rank. so the premise is people often think testosterone just makes people more aggressive, but this research suggests that it's more complicated than that. Instead, testosterone didn't necessarily make the men they studied more aggressive, but it helped them behave in ways that would best fit their social position. So they studied members of a Japanese university rugby team. Where there's a strong culture of hierarchy and respecting seniority. They measured each player's testosterone levels, and then they played this bargaining game called the ultimatum game, where they had to decide how much money to offer another player and what offers they would accept. So I guess it's kinda like gambling. The players knew whether their opponent was a senior or junior teammate, but not their identity. what they found was the senior players with higher T tended to make less generous offers, behaving more assertively because their higher status gave them the social standing to do so. The junior players with higher T did the opposite. They made more generous offers, they lowballed, showing greater deference to senior teammates, because in their hierarchy, that actually gets them more points in the long run. So Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: analogous to the Marine Corps example, the men who didn't Buy into the system ultimately would end up getting pushed down further at the bottom of the social hierarchy. Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: so the discussion at the end was kind of saying that rather than making everyone act more dominant, testosterone actually encourages whatever behavior is most likely to help a person succeed in their specific social environment. So Guy: Mm. Ella Simone: if you're already high in the social hierarchy, that might just mean acting more confidently or assertively. If you're lower in the hierarchy, that may mean cooperating, showing respect, avoiding conflict until it's advantageous. that made me think of like male subservience in the military because not everyone is a general. Most of the people in the military are in a submissive position and they show often absolute deference to their superiors, which Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: out of that context would seem as kind of beta, I think. By men to be deferential to other men, but in that context they're like upholding the spirit of the military. Guy: Mm-hmm. Maria: my friend who dated that horrible guy, he was an engineer and he would always say, like, women just aren't good at math. Like they just can't do those types of things because those are testosterone driven. but it just makes Ella Simone: Yeah, that's not true. Maria: No, it's not true. And I think it Guy: Mm-hmm. Maria: makes me think about how women are like slightly more communal. And I think about like the nature, does that have to do with the fact that women are lower in testosterone? when you see women who tend to perform higher in these sporting events, they tend to have higher levels of testosterone there definitely is something to testosterone being more about competition, and that does impact women as well as men. Ella Simone: But sports are kind of a weird caveat because it's literally about physical prowess, which is correlated to testosterone. And in this book, the author actually talks about that. And that's kind of its own like unique example. But in the knowledge economy that we live in now, that's not based on physical prowess, it's not really that binary. she kind of like wraps things up with saying that. Recognizing biological influence doesn't mean that people lack free will or that social norms should completely correlate with that. Biology is not destiny. You're still responsible for your actions. And she also brings attention to how culture shapes the way that the biological tendencies are expressed throughout the book. some scientists did disagree with how strongly she connected testosterone to complex human behavior. she got some criticism for kind of conflating areas where social and cultural influences are difficult to separate from biological ones. I don't know if we really have an answer to that yet. but I think the we can all widely accept the role of testosterone in physical development is really impactful in things like sports. That's why the transgender sports debate is like such a thing. but the debates are still ongoing about like the size of its effect on behavior. Maria: that's actually a really great segue into the whole nurture argument too, because it's not just nature, it's about nurture too. what do you think about all this guy? Like, how do you think nurturing in fa impacts the whole domination part of the patriarchy? Guy: as I was reading Bell Hooks's book, I think that was kind of the thought in the back of my head the whole time 'cause I think a lot of feminist literature that I've read there's this underlying feeling that if only the patriarchy didn't exist, men would just fall right in line with women and they would just be these completely like communal creatures and I don't have any proof of that, 'cause there's really no way of knowing for sure whether it's nature or nurture. But I really suspect that there's some amount of this that is just biologically innate. Maria: do you remember that show that you were quoting? Guy: yeah, yeah, yeah. Nah, it's it's this really fascinating show I saw It's a British show and they take girls ages eight to twelve and boys ages eight to twelve and they just put them in two separate houses and they have no adult supervision. there's cameras in the house and they have people like on standby if something really goes wrong. But they kind of just let the girls and the boys just do their own thing and see Ella Simone: Whoa. Guy: how it plays out. And the boys just immediately destroyed the house and Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: evolved into some like Lord of the Fly shit where they Maria: Ha ha. Ella Simone: Yeah, yeah. Guy: separated into separate factions and were just tormenting each other. And then the girls just set immediately like set up a structure equally dividing up all the chores. And then at the end of the show they were having a fashion show where the boys were having this like war with each other. And it was just it was just Maria: Hahaha Ella Simone: Aww, I love women. Maria: Yeah. Guy: so so interesting as someone who's interested in psychology. at ages eight to twelve, it's like you could argue okay, they have some preconceived notions of what they're like how they're supposed to behave, Ella Simone: I think they've definitely already been receptive to Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: propaganda slash social conditioning through their peers, which Bell Hooks goes into Guy: Yeah. absolutely, but Ella Simone: a lot about actually. Guy: Yeah, but I do think it's very it's just such a fascinating look at how different these two groups just behave Ella Simone: Yeah, and the debate is really is it nature or nurture? And that's kind of the ongoing Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: I think everyone knows it's both at this point, but the extent to which it's each one is still being debated. Guy: Yeah. But that's not the you know, that doesn't get the clicks to say, it's actually both and it's a lot more Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Guy: complex than everyone thinks. Like Ella Simone: Let's go into feminism. What is feminism? Maria: Belle Hooks basically talks about how Feminism is not a million different types of things. To be a feminist, you have to be advocating for the rights of women and you have to be against the patriarchy. So she actually argues, you can't be pro-life and be a feminist. And that is a really hot take, I think, in today's understanding of feminism, because we have like fifty million offshoots and ways to describe it. being a feminist to her is just being against institutionalized sexism. And that means rights from the government. And it really begs the question of how many people who consider themselves feminists are feminists and do you guys consider yourselves feminists? Guy: this is something I'm kind of grappling with, even now. Cause I think ideologically I really agree with a lot of like feminist literature that I've read. I feel like a more communal, a more egalitarian society is definitely optimal. maybe it's just from like when I was a teenager and I grew up with all of this, like men are trash, feminism. I just I really hesitate to align myself with that. So I like to say I'm ideologically a feminist, I love feminism, but I'm not the biggest fan of certain subgroups of feminists. Ella Simone: Yeah, and Bellux is quite critical of those more militant factions of feminism throughout this book. But I do consider myself a feminist. my biggest marker for feminism personally is like having this sense of solidarity with women that is not always the most convenient thing for me, but I like I want to contribute to the overall improvement in women's well-being in society. I do think to do certain things and to align yourself with certain people kind of disqualifies you from feminism in some ways. one hot take I have is I think if you are a woman who chronically gets with taken men, you can't be a feminist because you are knowingly undermining other women and you're probably getting a bit of an ego boost out of it because it's one thing to get someone, it's another thing to get someone who's taken. I do not get involved whatsoever with men who are taken because I think it is kind of a strike against womankind. And there's choice feminism, And that's kind of I think Maria, what you were getting at earlier. that's kind of the sense that like As long as you're making a choice with autonomy as a woman, like my choice to be pro-life, my choice to be a trad wife, then you can still be a feminist. And I don't really agree with that. And I think we can't let everyone be in everything. Our our society Maria: No, I totally Ella Simone: is obsessed with inclusion to the point of mediocrity. no, you can't be a feminist if you know literally nothing about feminism and you don't, do things to actively uplift women in your life. You're not part of the club. Sorry. Maria: No, no, no, no. Don't apologize. I just got really excited as you were talking about it because I feel so passionately about that. And I think that that's like it's a way to bring people in and It's almost a way of increasing our relevance and our numbers, but it has the opposite effect because you get all these people who actually don't have feminist takes at all. And I wanted to talk about what you said too, Guy, about like just greater humanism and communal whatever, right? Because feminism We don't say this enough, but feminism is from the perspective of women. Guy: I don't think a lot of men on the surface have any incentive to advocate for the equality of the sexes. Like if you're Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: on top, why would you advocate to lessen your own position? And I think what they don't realize is that being at the top in the position they are is actually like really spiritually harmful to them. But I think because we live in such a materialistic society it's hard to like recognize that unless you're like really do some level of introspection. Ella Simone: Yeah. And that's like weighs really well into the bulk of this episode, which is how does the patriarchy harm men? And the bulk of what this book is about. How does it actually play against them in a way that they typically don't even realize? Guy: I want to start this with an argument that patriarchal thinking actually makes you less competent and less able to do the things you want to do in life. Just being in this patriarchal line of thinking, you spend so much time and energy putting up a front and keeping up with this narrative and trying to manage everyone's impression of you, which like ironically I think is a very like feminine and I'm doing air quotes when I say that thing to do within that system, Ella Simone: Yeah. Yeah. Guy: but it's all these dudes care about. it wastes so much time and energy that you could be putting towards actually pursuing your passions and ideals and like contributing to society in some kind of meaningful positive way. And I think what it really boils down to is this base decision of are you going to commit your life to trying to lift up the people around you? Or are you gonna try to commit your life to improving your own? own position at the expense of others. despite all of its faults, I think very, like, very traditional masculinity. And I'm thinking of the boomers, who are like casually misogynistic, but also like really value family and like providing for the Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: people around them, like actually used to value, and I think it's this very new wave of masculinity that promotes just only thinking of yourself and like not connecting with other people. I saw this video that compared The misogyny of James Bond, the misogyny of Andrew Tate. And I thought it was so fascinating. Because like I'm talking like Maria: Mm. Guy: really old school James Bond, like 1960s James Bond, Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: incredibly misogynistic, but he still like interacted with women the entirety of the movie. Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: And like sure he thought of them as just kind of like sexual objects who like were unable to resist his advances, but at least he like still had some level of connection to women versus the Andrew Tate style misogyny nowadays where it's like women aren't even a part of your life whatsoever and you just shouldn't interact with them at all. And they both suck, but I think it really points to this shift in development of misogyny over the years And I think that's just so harmful to society in general. Ella Simone: Yeah, there's a guy called Myron Gaines who has the Fresh and Fit podcast, which is a big red pill podcast. And he put out some video recently about how it's gay to live with a woman. So we've really lost the plot here with this modern reactionary Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: anti-feminism with young men. I read a similar study about how boomer men are actually less misogynistic than Gen Z men. And I think there's still time to change that. But yikes like Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: my God. Like that's really bad. There was a level of chivalry. and I think like Christian humanism and politeness to the patriarchal values of like boomer men. Whereas now it's like this like godless like internet might is right type of mentality Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: that like doesn't even make reference to respecting women. I don't think we can expect masses of men to pick up feminist literature. It's not gonna happen, y'all. Like we're gonna have to do it, but I will say in 2004 when she wrote when Bell Hooks wrote this, feminism was a lot more maligned, And now we have this whole Some would call it an epidemic, some would call it a movement of performative males who be like reading bell hooks on the train and going to coffee shops with their tote bags. Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: you know, they get clowned on a lot, but I kind of find that sort of a sign of progress. Like that less Guy: Mm. Ella Simone: men are afraid to be associated with girly things. Like I've gone out with guys Guy: And Ella Simone: who were like, I love Brat by Charlie XX. the early two thousands was such a guy's girl like backlash decade there's so many tropes in movies during that time of women who were like one of the boys and they fixed cars and they drank beer and they criticize other women and now I think women are expected to have a lot more solidarity with one another. Some of which also gets problematic too. I don't think every woman should be called a pick me. I don't think we should slut shame women. by saying that they center men or whatever. Like I think that's taken on its own pearl clutching qualities. But overall, I think the male consciousness about feminism has been raised. The red pill shit is just a reaction to the fact that men are starting to get it more, Guy: I'm glad you brought this up, Ella. I have very strong opinions about performative males as someone who has read Bell books. Maria: Yeah. Guy: I think this is just an internet thing in general and it's just like the times that we're in. I think we live in very, K shaped realities based on where the algorithm functions us into. there's almost like a group of men that will get fed all of this feminist content. And that's not to say they don't have their own free will, right? But they live in this completely separate reality and have all of these different attitudes towards women as dudes who were raised in certain environments and are fed different content. as far as talking about performative men, are they actually internalizing what they're reading or are they just performing because that's the strategy that most aligns with their environment that they've noticed. And, you know growing Maria: Okay, one thing. Guy: up in, you know, Bum Fuck Nowhere, Pennsylvania, there is a much different strategy Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: that you employed, as I've noticed, then Richmond, Virginia. Maria: well, that's kind of the whole thing about performative masculinity. It is performative. It is men trying to appeal to the female gaze. Because there's all this content Guy: Yeah. Maria: online about that now. It's like, This is how you appeal to the female gaze. So these men are out here drinking matcha, like listening to God like ethical pain and shit and be like, This Ella Simone: Listen. Maria: is how I get women. I just need to read bell hooks in public and Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: I need to go to my tote bag and go to a farmer's market. and that will get me more pussy. But that actually is like the most patriarchal shit possible. Because like why are you pretending why are you putting on this mask to pretend to Guy: Yeah. Maria: be something you're not so that you can fuck more and more women? Ella Simone: isn't that the same Guy: the thing, it's like Ella Simone: thing as acting like a patriarchal dude? That's also a mask that you're Maria: Yes, that's what I'm saying. Guy: Yeah, absolutely. Ella Simone: peacocking to fuck other women. I mean, I don't really feel like it's that different, but I think it's slightly better because patriarchal masculinity hates all things feminine. to be okay with aligning yourself with something feminine, even if it is to get more chicks, I think is a slight sign of progress versus just rejecting it all. Guy: Well, I think it's a sign of how much power women have gained culturally over Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: the years. I do like the term performative masculinity, unlike Belle Hooks, I don't think masculinity is inherently aligned with putting on a mask. And I Ella Simone: No. Guy: I think there's so much value in just being centered in what you actually believe and just being open to other people's perspectives. yeah, there's some aspects of feminism I agree with, some aspects of it I disagree with, but I think the key there is that I'm living congruently with what I actually believe and who I am. And I think that's dropping the performative bit of it and just being who you are. And I think in that respect, like, is it really even fair to call that masculinity? Because I think that's just being like a self actualized person and living in who you actually are. I think that's separate from gender. Just being who you are. Ella Simone: Well, that kind Maria: Yeah. Ella Simone: of begs the question you brought up earlier of what is the ideal man to a feminist. Guy: on some level I do think it is important to be able to meet the demands that your environment expects of you. But I think there's this balance of being able to recognize when you need to meet the demands of your environment and when you need to work to change your environment. Maria: for me, the ideal man, and already know your like your thoughts, Ella, because we've chatted so much. I love your answer. It's so beautiful. Mine is really just Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Maria: about flexibility, like kind of Guy: And Maria: what Guy was saying, like the ideal man to me within feminism. is I want you to be able to put on the hat of like dominator and masculine when the situation calls for it. Right. But I Guy: Mm. Maria: also want you to be able to do things like take a step back when necessary. I love my father, but like he will not cook because it's gay. Like he will only grill meat. He Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: will not use a pan. Like the only thing he'll do is Ella Simone: Fellas, is it gay to cook and live with a woman? Maria: genuinely like he will cook an egg because that's masculine enough. He will cook an egg, an omelet. He will not like cook cook. Right? if he was with a woman and she wanted to grill, I think he'd have so much to say about it, right? Like it doesn't matter if she would be like a grill master, it'd make him feel a type of way. But anyway, That's kind of the ideal man to me. He'll take a step up when he is needed, but he'll take a step back when he's needed. Emotional intelligence is like the hottest thing in the world to me. Ella Simone: Yeah, I think a lot of women would agree with that. I'm gonna pull a quote from The Will to Change, again, she's quoting another author, Terence Real, who's a therapist. He's written books about this kind of subject. And he was talking to, I don't know what tribe or region this person's from, but a Maasai, wise man. and he asked him to name the traits of a good Mirani, which means warrior in his language, he said, I will tell you what makes a good Murani. When the moment calls for fierceness, a good Murani is very ferocious. And when the moment calls for kindness, a good Murani is utterly tender. Now what makes a great Murani is knowing which moment is which. And then Bell Hooks added, we see that females who are raised with the traits any person of integrity embodies can act with tenderness, with assertiveness, and with aggression if and when aggression is needed. And that sums up my idea of the ideal man. I'm not asking men to stop engaging in all the patriarchal media they consume or renounce all their patriarchal values. I think men are capable of doing what the wise man said while still being themselves, and they just need to. embrace their multitudes and I personally don't have any masculine skills. I really can't think of a single one. I can barely open a door. I can't assemble things. I'm really not handy at all. I am not a good driver. Like I can't do anything. just because I'm feel limited in certain motor skills, like I really do feel like I tend to expect the guy that I'm with to do that kind of stuff for me. and yeah, I do kind of want the assumption to be like, you're gonna take out the trash and I'll do this less like labor-intensive chore. I don't ever want to feel like a man is competing with me or I'm competing with him and I'm okay with a level of gender roles in a relationship, but we have to be able to see each other as people and as friends before any of that. And I expect men to have a certain level of openness toward my female interests. My dad was like a huge Lana Del Rey fan and a Nicki Minaj fan when he was alive and I showed him all my music and he was super into it. And I think that kind of printed my love map in terms of like, I want someone who's open to that stuff. And if you're just gonna like watch beer and sports, like I don't care. I tend to like guys who are kind of on the artistic side for I think for that reason and 'cause I'm artistic. So that's just a personal preference thing. I don't think that's like required for you to be an enlightened man, but that's something that I'd want out of a man. I'll definitely watch Saving Private Ryan with you, but you have to watch whatever I want to watch. Maria: That was a bit of an in joke between me and Guy because we constantly Guy: Yeah. Yeah. Maria: do that. Like it is a bit of a balance between Okay, what stupid boy movie are we gonna watch now and what stupid like girly movie are Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: we gonna watch? Like you're gonna watch Twilight with me, guy. That is going to happen. Ella Simone: Yeah. But that's just an extension of the flexibility thing that we've been talking about. Guy: Yeah. No, and and it's it's really like opened my eyes too, 'cause I mean we watched Flea Bag and I'd absolutely loved it. I think what it's really about is just dropping your ego and like connecting more with like who you genuinely are it becomes such a f self fulfilling prophecy. If you view everyone in the world as competition, that part of them is gonna get activated and then they are gonna be in competition with you and then no one's gonna actually connect with you 'cause it's really hard to connect with someone that you're trying to dominate. that's the saddest part about all of this is like these men are so utterly alone by their own design and all they have to do is just accept that they're not these all powerful beings they think they are. But it's it's so hard. Ella Simone: Yeah. I wanna make a strange analogy. I think having the patriarchal mask as a man and constantly trying to prove to everyone how competent and assured you are is kind of like having an eating disorder for women in that you waste so much time thinking about your image and how well you're maintaining it. am I getting closer to my ideal? Am I getting further from my ideal? And then there's all the shame attached if you gain weight or if you eat too much and it just sucks up all of your attention and it is extremely isolating because you start making all these calculations about how I'm being perceived and am I skinnier than this girl. And this girl who's skinnier than me is immediately competition and it isolates you from other people because you have this obsessive quest that is pretty antisocial. you're also trying to like reach this feminine ideal in the way that men try to reach this masculine ideal. you think it's gonna help you gain social acceptance, but it actually makes you like isolated and weird. And I would say with the male loneliness epidemic and incels, they're so set on proving themselves to everyone that they actually can connect to no one. Maria: Yeah. Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: Maria, did you want Maria: Yeah. Ella Simone: to say something? Maria: I'm just genuinely loving what you guys are saying. the experience I keep hearing from guys is this idea that if I am in touch with my emotions, they will control me and then I will not be as effective. the way that a Guy: Mm-hmm. Maria: lot of people are taught. to understand emotions is if you are a man, take that emotion, channel it into anger and burst forward. Let that propel you into energy and let it allow you to rise to the top of whatever you're trying to dominate, Guy: Yeah, and I use this analogy a lot with my clients. I'm a therapist, by the way, I think a lot of men that you just described, Maria, have very good engines, but they have no idea how to steer. And I use this analogy 'cause I feel like men Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: just instinctively know how cars work. And it's Maria: Ha ha Guy: like they're really good Ella Simone: Ha ha ha ha. Guy: at pushing forward in life. They just are completely fucked on how to steer anything. So they're very good at go being very efficient at going in the wrong direction. And I think that's what we see in Ella Simone: Just like me for real. Maria: that's like a quote from Belle Hooks too. Like she says that patriarchy demands of men that they become and remain emotional cripples. There's only Guy: Mm-hmm. Maria: one emotion that they value when expressed by men: anger. Guy: Yeah. Maria: Real men get mad. And Guy: Okay. Maria: no matter how violent or violating, it's deemed natural because it's a positive expression of patriarchal masculinity. And it's also the best hiding place for anguish And that's kind of what propels men to be so violent. Not saying that all men are extremely violent, but there's this romantization of violence. Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: Wanted to expand on the thing you were saying about anger. Well, the quote from Bell Hooks. So everybody needs to read Gucci Mane's memoir, Episodes, The Diary of a Recovering Madman. People don't know that Gucci Mane has schizophrenia and had a drug addiction and went to prison and had all these crazy rock bottom moments and that that's kind of what the book is about. But he's talking about the time he got an ice cream cone tattooed on his face. I'm just gonna read the quote. I poked at the finished product. I wanted to feel it hurt, and I couldn't. I couldn't process feelings, but I really wanted to. I wanted to process emotions. I wanted to cry. I wanted to feel sad. I didn't even know how tears could form in me at that point. That's why I kept showing back up to the tattoo parlor. I figured needles on my face had to ignite something in me, right? But they didn't. I wanted the pain to affect me, it didn't. I felt defeated, and the more I tried to spark a feeling and failed, the more it made me miserable and angry. Anger. That was the only emotion I could take ownership of and actually feel. So I held on to it. It made sense to be angry, but having that as your only emotion is a dangerous thing. Gucci Mane Maria: Yeah. Ella Simone: like a good example of like someone who actually has done a lot of introspection as someone who obviously is fully bought into the patriarchal dominator model as a Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: rapper. If you actually read his writing, He has done a lot of thinking about this kind of stuff. People need to pay attention to Gucci Bane. Guy: That's awesome. Yeah. No, that's dope. that's what it requires of you. I really feel like patriarchal thinking exists at the extremes of socioeconomic status. So like people who are Ella Simone: Love this point. Guy: very low and very high like are stuck in fight or flight mode and you only exist to survive in the hierarchy. Like you don't have any connection to what you actually feel to what's going on and you have to put that away if that doesn't align with your like materialistic goals of what you perceive as surviving. But no, I I really I applaud I applaud Gucci for that. That's that's dope. Maria: Yeah. And that's also a really great segue into who was it? Belle Hooks who essentially says that patterns of male violence are actually kind of akin to a mental illness because it's not inherent to men at a biological level. testosterone doesn't have to make people irrational or violent, despite the fact that we seem to think so. Ella Simone: Yes, she said their violence is deemed natural by the psychology of patriarchy, which insists that there's a biological connection between being male and the will to do violence. So Barbara Deming was quoted by Bell Hooks in The Will to Change. And this is the Barbara Deming quote. I think the reason that men are so very violent is that they know deep in themselves that they're acting a lie and so they're furious. You can't be happy living a lie, and so they're furious at being caught in the lie, but they don't know how to break out of it, so they just go further into it. Guy: Mm. Ella Simone: What do you think about that guy? Guy: Yeah, I don't think that tells the full story. Like I do think Ella Simone: I don't really either. Guy: like absolutely I think that's a part of it. And I think I think there's violence that comes out in a form of repressed emotionality. So I think a lot of men are violent because they kind of reach their breaking point emotionally and they just can't take it anymore and they just lash out. But I also think violence is a very effective tool to rise up in the hierarchy. I wonder if this is some of the reason they're so violent around around women in particular 'cause it's almost like actually getting into the emotional nuances of a situation is a lot more complicated than just threatening someone physically. Maria: I was just gonna say that I think that's a really great kind of segue into how women and men become like disconnected from each other, partially because of how the a patriarchy impacts their view of themselves, them being on their own little side quests towards being the ultimate woman and the ultimate man. And how it kind of divorces them further from each other. It's like, why isn't our generation having more sex? Why aren't people connecting more? Why aren't people having kids? So like how does the patriarchy isolate men and women from one another? Ella Simone: Well, Belle Hooks talks about this. when she says violent, I don't think she literally means physical violence in every situation, because even Guy: Mm. Yeah. Ella Simone: though I don't love that she does this, she'll often use the word violence to say emotional abuse or something. But she said, as long as men are brainwashed to equate violent domination and abuse of women with privilege, they will have no understanding of the damage done to themselves or others, and no motivation to change. And then this is a separate but related quote. These situations of unhealthy intimacy exist because of our cultural failure to teach women and men what intimacy is. As long as women remain the primary parental caregivers, we will have the lion's share of responsibility for learning how to be intimate with ourselves and sharing that knowledge with male and female children. Maria: I think that really goes back to what I was talking about with women being the emotional hearts of the family too. Ella Simone: Well, do you think women Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: are as capable of emotional violence as men or do practice emotional violence as much as men? Maria: my fucking God, yes I do. I 1000% do. Because I think of it kind of like I think women are just as intelligent as men. And I think that when you don't give a woman the ability to stretch her intellectual ideas and to like actually control her own life, she is forced to do things like manipulate. So I think they're actually more capable Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: of emotional violence than men are. That's just my personal opinion. Because you're conditioned to have to do so. And this is a conversation I had with my mom, Like I love her a lot, but I told her one day, I was like, Mom, you always taught me it's easier to manipulate a man than you know Be direct with him. And she's like, Well, yeah, I believe that. I was kind of always in this mindset I have to allow a man to save face to get what I want from him. So he has to be able to hold on to his pride and I have to avoid shaming him. I can't be direct and risk shaming him and then risk the anger that will come from his shame. So if I'm going to get anything that I want out of a man I have to be indirect and allow him to uphold his patriarchal norms of himself and then get what I want by either undercutting him or flattering him. And that kind of mindset really allows you to be as emotionally violent as you want because you can kind of wear this mask of victimhood, which Bell Hooks also talks about, right? you can absolutely mind fuck a man into a point where he is extremely fucked up and almost and angry with you. because i think that's kind of how men are conditioned they're not as emotionally aware and in tune so they're not necessarily as aware of the games that you're playing they just say women are manipulative right they don't they don't really get it so it's easier to like cajole a man into doing what you want and then be able to paint that victim mask over your face, if that makes sense. Guy: Hm. I completely agree we were talking about this earlier, Ella. I feel like a lot of times, like when men are violent against women, it's almost like a defense against everything that Maria was just talking about. And not not trying to justify it by any Maria: yeah. Guy: means. generally speaking, men are physically stronger than women. that knowledge is present kind of in every interaction with people that involves men. And I don't know how like physically violent women tend to be with each other. I'm led to believe not quite as much as men, I know I experienced it a lot more when I was younger, but it's like in the back of every dude's mind when they're interacting with another guy, it's like, Could I take this dude in a fight? Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: one of the first things I was ever taught when I was young was like you do not hit girls ever. Like under any circumstance that is unacceptable. For a lot of men, like that's the only way they really know how to exert power in a really stressful situation. So I feel like it kind of messes with you when you're with someone who's like messing with your head but you can't do the thing that you know how to do. And I don't know, this might sound really fucked up to say, but there's a lot of times when I've been interacting with women in the past and I was in a frat in college, so there's a lot of situations I was just in where it's like I should not have been here in the first place. But I'm like, wow, if like a man was saying this to me, we would be throwing hands. But because it's like socially unacceptable for me to do that, I just have to sit here and take all of this like Maria: Right. Guy: verbal abuse. And like it feels shitty. And I think sometimes women don't recognize the power they have in that way. Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: Yeah. Ella Simone: Camille Paulier who I quoted earlier, she's a feminist writer, but a very different kind of feminist. She's very polarizing. Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: And she wrote in her book, Vamps and Tramps, I don't have the direct quote. But it was basically like the violent blow is the blow that to men's eyes equalizes them because they feel like women have superior emotional intelligence and ability to strategize Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: and they're the sexual gatekeepers, which will Guy: Mm. Ella Simone: tie into the topic about men and patriarchy and sex what we're just about to get into, but men I think do feel emotionally confused by women more so than women feel confused by men. I think to them it often is like a last resort thing they're crashing out because they literally don't know how else to express or understand the nuances Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: of women's emotions and needs. And Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: I'm not someone who's been like I need to manipulate men. Like I don't really do that, but I also even being someone who doesn't do that, feel very confident that I could do it if I wanted to. and with using your sex appeal. That's another huge part of it. Guy: Yeah. yeah. Yeah. Maria: Yeah. Ella Simone: So let's Maria: And Ella Simone: get into patriarchy and sex. One of Hooks's main points about sex is that patriarchy teaches men to root their self-concept in their sexual conquests and teaches them to think of it as a conquest at all, I would add. She said, for the patriarchal male, be he straight or gay, addictive sexuality is fundamentally about the need to constantly affirm and reaffirm one's selfhood. If it is only through sex that he can experience selfhood, then sex has to be constantly foregrounded. Most men think that sex will provide them with a sense of being alive, connected, that sex will offer closeness, intimacy, pleasure, and more often than not, sex does simply not deliver the goods. This fact does not lead men to cease obsessing about sex, it intensifies their lust and their longing. Guy: Yeah. to tie into your last point, Ella, and it's so funny 'cause this is actually something that a lot of red pill, like, content creators say. Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: I think they're wrong in that, like, the vast majority of women don't do this, but I think they're hitting on something where it's like a lot of women will kind of use sex as a way to pacify men. So they will like women will be Ella Simone: yeah. Guy: like 100% fucking these dudes over in real life. And then as long as they allow men to kind of play out their fantasies sexually, then the men will be like, yeah, I'm in control here. And then they just will forget about all the ways they're getting ripped off. But Maria: Mm-hmm. Guy: curious for y'all's thoughts on that. Maria: See, this is funny to me because the reason that I think that women have the ability to do more emotional damage is because when I was in my little situationship with that woman, I felt for the first time so manipulated by sex, but at the same time, like I was so emotionally Manipulated by this person, and I felt like I was finally like viewing things through the eyes of a man, and it was terrifying. And I was like, Wait, men are this able to be manipulated by sex? Like, I'm not a man, obviously, but was like, is this what happens when women Guy: Yeah. Maria: use their sex appeal to get what they want from you and manipulate Guy: Yeah. Maria: you and make you feel like you're crazy? This is the worst thing in the world. And I had this very Ella Simone: Ha ha ha. Maria: like, I had this moment of I can see how women can be the problem sometimes because this is something that she's admitted to. She's like, Yeah, like I would always like use sex to keep people close because a bunch of reasons, right? And she would like fuck all of her friends. And I just happen to be one of the very few women she'd ever really done that with. But it really got tied to my identity in a way that I feel like men might experience too, because if I have this kind of sex, it affirms my identity in some way. For me, it was affirming my queerness. But it made me think about how sex like affirms men's identity and ego. But it was really interesting to kind of have that experience. Like, like, yeah, this is as powerful as we think it is. Wow. Ella Simone: I mean, there's a reason female sexuality has been so contested and restricted throughout civilization. It is a powerful force in religious text they talk about s female sexuality as this like almost supernatural, like uncontrollable force of nature, which I think can have really patriarchal undertones, but there is something there. Guy: I mean I think just it's so hardwired into our DNA to reproduce and I feel like people forget contraception is a very like new thing, or at least very widespread effective contraception. And I feel like back in the day Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: it's like if you had an unwanted pregnancy, that was a really big deal. And like that's like a whole child a whole Ella Simone: Yeah, there were immediate consequences. Guy: another mouth to feed. Yeah, there's all of these ramifications to it that I really don't think are the case nowadays. And I think a lot of these very traditional views of sex haven't really caught up with the times. Maria: we use this quote before, like when culture is based on a dominator model, it will frame all relationships as power struggles. And I think that's where Guy: Mm-hmm. Maria: we can start to think about like intimacy. Cause what I'm was talking about is like emotional manipulation, which is like this false idea of what intimacy should be. So I think that we should talk about like how the patriarchy has really fucked up our ideas of intimacy. Cause what I was talking about is our relationship with sex becomes like what can I get from each other? And I feel like intimacy is actually the opposite of that. It's the opposite of a dominator model. Ella Simone: Yeah, I wanna put forth my favorite quote from the entire book, Bill Hooks in her chapter on sexuality says lying about sexuality is an accepted part of patriarchal masculinity. Sex is where many men act out because it is the only social arena where the patriarchal promise of dominion can be easily realized. That's what you were just saying. Without these perks, masses of men might have rebelled against patriarchy long ago. Little boys learn early in life that sexuality is the ultimate proving ground where their patriarchal masculinity will be tested. They learn early that sexual desire should not be freely expressed and that females will try to control male sexuality. There's been this discourse floating around the podcast space that all men cheat, and this is just a fact one must accept. And I think that is a very patriarchal understanding, that's just kind of affirming. the dominator model of sexuality. Like instead of it being this two-person endeavor, it's this thing where one must lose in order for the other to gain. And if you listen to Guy: Okay. Ella Simone: these red pill guys talk, they have no interest in women outside of just the body count of it all. Even Clavicular talks Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: about how he's like, I don't really like women. I don't even really like sex. It's just knowing that I can get this woman. And for me, as someone who got a lot of sexual tension when I was pretty young, I also quickly learned to weaponize that. And I didn't actually want to have sex with all people. But knowing that they wanted to have sex with me gave me a sense of power. And for me it was never about actually having sex with them. I didn't actually have sex with them. But knowing that they wanted to and I held that over them did give me an ego Guy: Mm. Ella Simone: boost. And it makes you feel kind of, I don't know, tingly and alive to be like, hee. And I don't like how woman as tempteress very quickly gets into biblical, patriarchal ideas, but there is something to that. Like men don't have s the sexual discipline that women have, which as Bell Hook says is partly Maria: I found the test fish. Ella Simone: a function of the patriarchy. but it doesn't really matter where it comes from, it's just a fact. Like men just don't men just cannot dismiss sex in the way that women can if they really need to, and I think they've resent the power we have over them in that arena. Guy: Hmm. I saw this one quote this one time. I'm curious what y'all think about this. It was basically 'cause I think it's complete BS personally. But it it was something about like men are jealous of the fact that women can give life and like give birth. Ella Simone: god, I've been saying that since I was like 18. Who said that? Because I I Guy: I have no idea. Ella Simone: had a friend in college who was in a frat. He was super like norm core, regular dude, not like a sensitive young man or anything. And we had to talk about this one Maria: Come Ella Simone: time, and I was saying, What do you think the origin of misogyny was is? And he said, probably just men being more. physically powerful than women. I was like, I have no idea where I'm getting this from, but I think it has something to do with the fact that we can create life. And now since reading this book by Camille Polly, A Sexual Personae, where she talks about this more, now I think I have more like bite to that argument. But back then I just kinda kind of had like a vague sense and I was like, I Guy: Interesting. Ella Simone: feel like they must destroy because we create or something. Like they have to be violent and destructive in some ways because it upsets them that we create life. And she talked about how up until we had a scientific understanding of birth and pregnancy, people didn't know how pregnancy happened. Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: So a woman would just start showing and everyone was like, yo, what the fuck? And and Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: I mean birth and pregnancy is like a crazy freaky experience. And like there the Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: the fear and curiosity that men developed around women's ability to do that, I think, translates into hate because as we know, hate and fear one and the same. Maria: There is a specific quote here that I am trying to find out, It's essentially like men are furious because they're living out a lie that they know that this doesn't have to be the way they have to be. I think that's where that rage comes from. I don't think of it like birth. I think of it like men are deeply jealous because women are able to like connect and see love, and Guy: Mm-hmm. Maria: men hate that they can't feel that kind of love. they're jealous and angry. Because like they deeply want to be unconditionally loved, but they don't know how to unconditionally love others and they don't know how to accept unconditional love. And I think maybe that ties into birth because when a woman gives Guy: Yeah. Maria: birth to a child, she is automatically attached to that baby. Well not not in every case, as we know, but like there's like such an intense attachment to that child. That child is born of you and it is automatically the most powerful love in the world. And I think so many men feel so disconnected from their emotions. They deeply fear Guy: Mm-hmm. Maria: women who can connect to it. They fear the power of emotion. They fear the power of intimacy. And they're resentful because they're like, why the fuck do I have to push all this shit down and lead? I don't want to go work for 12 hours at a goddamn fucking factory. I wanna sit home and be with Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: Yeah. Maria: this being that I made from my fucking body. I know you've talked about this guy where like men want to be loved and they want to love, but Guy: yeah. Maria: they are forced to be so disconnected from it. And I don't think they blame other men, Guy: Mm-hmm. Maria: they blame women. Even though they're not the one who set the system up. Cause they see women as Guy: Yeah. Maria: having this privilege. And I see it even with these Redville communities. It's like they're really jealous of hot girls. Hot girls get all this privilege. Hot girls get free drinks. Hot girls get all this stuff. And I'm like, so you just wanna be a hot girl. Guy: They just wanna be hard girls. Maria: They just wanna be a hot girl. Ella Simone: They really just want to be Madison Beer. Maria: They do. Ella Simone: Well, I mean, we've spent almost two hours talking about all these sociological and economic implications of misogyny, but I think sometimes it do come down to when you feel like a hot girl, when you're walking down the street and you know your conscience is clear and your aura is strong and your outfit is fire. men just will never truly feel that in the way that we that we feel that. they obviously can have their their moments to shine, but women just have this bit of aura from maybe the power of their sexuality, or maybe they're closer to God, or who even knows. But I think a lot of it is jealousy about that. And I think because we live in such an image-based culture with social media now, the hot girl is elevated as like the ultimate privileged. individual, even though if you look closely at Hawkgirls' lives, they deal with a lot of the same problems and some of the problems are even heightened by their own pretty privilege. But in an image based society where everything is about just a picture and what you look like, they have like the ultimate privilege, it seems. Maria: Why they hate gold diggers. Have you guys ever heard of that movie Gentlemen Prefer Blondes? Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: there's a quote from it where Marilyn Monroe is standing there and she says, don't you know that a man being rich is like a a girl being pretty? It's not the most important thing, but goodness, doesn't it help? And that's where I think that red pill idea comes from. You gotta be rich Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: Even Maria: so that you can have the privilege that a girl has from being pretty. And they resent the fact that a woman can just be pretty and get all this stuff, but they're not actually acknowledging that it takes a lot of work to be a hot girl. they gotta do all the work because if you're too unapproachable, if you're too this, if you're too that. Right? Like they just want social capital and they see women being hot as the ultimate social capital that they don't have to work for. They don't have to go work twelve hours a day to be a hot girl. Because let's be real, it you can be a hot girl, it takes effort, but it doesn't take the same effort as a man being rich, especially in this economic time. Ella Simone: Yeah, but they fail Guy: So Ella Simone: to recognize how hot girls are used for their appearance constantly and how men and women both resent them and how this ease is projected onto them just because they're hot. And yeah, there's undeniable advantages to being a hot girl, but also in a society that's so afraid of aging, it's a diminishing resource. it's a fleeting status that you have almost. I wrote a poem about this a couple years ago called Daisy Death about how like Maria: Love that Povey Row. Ella Simone: thank you. I wrote it when I was 20 and I s opened it saying I will never again be the cosmic force I was at 20 I don't literally mean that I'm chopped when I'm 21, but I know that it's this fleeting power that I have, Guy: Dang. Yeah. Maria: Hehehe Guy: it's so different as a dude because I feel like it's just accepted that your twenties are gonna suck and like thirties when Ella Simone: Ha ha ha. Guy: you hit your peak. And then it is like only an upward trajectory from there until you're like fifty. yeah. Ella Simone: Really? Interesting. Maria: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: I guess 'cause you're broke in Maria: This is something that Ella Simone: your twenties? Guy: Yes. A hundred percent. And I feel I wanna Ella Simone: Yeah, that makes sense. Guy: take it back because what you said earlier of like I feel like the male version of being a hot girl is like exactly what I talked about earlier about like reaching the top of that dominance hierarchy. And like that's the thing. Like I feel like as a Ella Simone: Yeah, when you're forty five, you're a hot girl. Guy: dude, like we have so much privilege in the fact that like anyone can be rich, but I feel like being a hot girl there is some kind of like lottery to that. there's nothing really holding you back just based on like who you are. And I think that's a part of what keeps the patriarchal allure going. It's like anyone, any dude can get there. Maria: yeah. Guy: And in reality, it's like it you can't. the fact that I was born into the family I was, like, statistically, I'm probably not gonna reach that, like, mega rich, like, pinnacle of patriarchal masculinity. Also 'cause I don't really have the desire to. But I think that's part of what keeps it going. And like, I don't know. I I feel like this has been like pretty recent as I went to grad school and I was in a cohort of like all women, I kind of like had this insight of like, dang, like, I feel like y'all just get so screwed by this system. is it fair to say more so than men? I think it's fair too. Ella Simone: more so than men. Hooks actually Maria: Yeah. Ella Simone: does make a statement at one point. She's like, Yeah, I just spent this whole book talking about how men are limited by the patriarchy, but ultimately it does not compare to the subjugation throughout Guy: yeah. Yeah. Ella Simone: history that women have faced at the hands of the patriarchy. Maria: No, and I've thought about that. And I put this and I'm not gonna go too intensely in geopolitical issues, but I'm just gonna briefly mention Afghanistan as a country. I'm not gonna look at the situation there and be like, you know, men are such a victim because they don't get to have Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: like a fully formed woman as a partner and they don't get to connect with their emotions. Like, no, not being able to go to school and every other injustice that those poor women have to go through that is far worse. child marriage very, very much overshadows the pain of not being able to connect fully with their Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: emotions. So let's actually just try to create a better world for our children, which is one of the few things that men and women do have in common. we wanna have a good life for our children, right? who will teach men to be better? when we raise the next generation of children, we should both do the internal work to be like, how do we actually want to raise this child to be a man? Ella Simone: Yeah, and I think we as women need to stop rewarding bad patriarchal male behavior with our attention. I think we gotta do some operant conditioning and if a man plays in your face, you need to stop engaging with him because you're basically just teaching him that it's okay and that you will accept his low ball, basically. I'm not saying that you can't make mistakes with women. I'm not saying that I wanna implement this surveillance system of female behavior either. But I think we need to not reward men who act in these patriarchally driven like ways and undermine us and disrespect us because if you keep engaging with that and keep rewarding them with attention and sex, what will to change will they have? Mm. my stance on men's ability to improve is ultimately optimistic. they have every capacity to change. It's just they have to have the will to change. And that's Maria: Mm. Ella Simone: what we're gonna get Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: into on episode two. Maria: Yes. Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: Alright, do guys have any closing thoughts? Guy: I I thought this was awesome and I hope somewhere out there there's some like dude who watches this and like actually uses this opportunity to like reflect on his own life and stuff And yeah. Yeah Yeah and I hope like all all of our Ella Simone: Yeah. Yeah. We're trying to help y'all ultimately. We're trying to help y'all get women in a non-predatory manner. Maria: And all the women out there too. Guy: I mean I hope anyone of any gender who's watching this just like takes the time to like reflect on their own experiences I feel like people's sense of self gets so controlled by the narratives that get put out there about who you need to be and like what gives you value and it's like it's all bullshit. Like you get to determine that. And you really have to like Yeah. Ella Simone: Yeah. Don't worry about this high value man, high value woman bullshit. Guy: Yeah. It's like you you determine what gives you value. And like if you really are honest with yourself about that and you live in your values, you're gonna find someone who shares them with you. Ella Simone: That's the most attractive thing ever. Guy: Mm-hmm. I agree. Maria: And I hope and I hope the patriarchal women who see this too, who are like, god, like I feel so fucking jilted that I'm not a man. I'm like, it's not all fucking it's not all roses. No, I'm Ella Simone: Girl, I'm not. Maria: very glad I'm not a man and like they're not some captivating, mysterious engine that drives your self worth like just people. Ella Simone: Mm-mm. No, I like hopped around my room last night listening to Addison Ray at like five in the morning and I was like, I love being a girl. And Maria: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: men can do that too if they want to. Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: All right. Thank you guys for listening. we're really happy if you've made it to the end. And open some bell hooks and learn about the will to change. Thank you for listening, class dismissed. Maria: Thank you everyone.