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The Duel of the Sarah Lawrence College Cult Docs · Conspiracy! The Show

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Conspiracy The Show, the world's most trusted conspiracy
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: dary podcast, with your hosts Adam Todd Brown and Olivia Hidar.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, welcome to Conspiracy The Show. I'm your host
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Adam Todd Brown joining me a special guest co host
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: this week, Kim Crawl is here.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: Hi everybody.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Hi Kim. You've been on Well, you were on the
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Conspiracy Pod about the Paul McCartney conspiracy McCartney. Yeah, foe McCartney.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: They call him Paul McCartney, like because the f fake
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: get it? Okay?
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Which that was a very fun episode.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: I don't remember if we put that out publicly, but
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: you can see at least some of it on YouTube, So.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: You didn't publicly.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: I think we did, though. I think we did put
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: it out because that's a very good episode. So if
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: people haven't heard it, go listen to that. You've heard
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Kim on this pod before. I think you might have
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: been on some other episodes you've definitely, yeah, I don't know,
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: maybe not. You've been on Pretty Scary before, and this
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: was gonna be an episode of Pretty Scary. But for
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: one thing, we've talked about the story that we're talking
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: about today on Pretty Scary. Before it was just we
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: talked about it a long time ago, before these documentaries
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  Speaker 2: were out.
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  Speaker 3: You did research on it before these documentaries.
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  Speaker 2: Well, this story broke in like print media in newspapers
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  Speaker 2: and magazines first, and so we did an episode based
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: on those articles before this documentary came out. I feel
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: like even though I mean, that's one of the reasons
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: we're covering it on conspiracy now because we did talk
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: about it, I'm pretty scary, But also I feel like
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of conspiracy related stuff to this story,
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: which is the Sarah Lawrence college cult story. My main
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: conspiracy angle toward this story is this guy is clearly
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: like former CIA or something. Oh you think that, I mean,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: he that's one of the things he bragged about, and
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: like with MK Ultra, we know that was a lot
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: of just like mind control stuff and figuring out different
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  Speaker 2: techniques for interrogating people and breaking people down. And it
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  Speaker 2: feels like this guy was using stuff he learned in
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  Speaker 2: that capacity on these kids.
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  Speaker 3: Cause how do you learn how to do that kind
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  Speaker 3: of thing that he did, you know what I mean?
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  Speaker 3: Like it seemed very quickly that he was able to
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  Speaker 3: do this to these kids.
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  Speaker 2: So we're covering this story by way of the Hulu
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  Speaker 2: documentary called Stolen Inside the Sarah Lawrence College Cult. It's
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  Speaker 2: one of two competing Sarah Lawrence College Cult documentaries that
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  Speaker 2: are out on the market right now, which is a
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  Speaker 2: really common thing these days.
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  Speaker 3: Really. When I saw that at the notes, I was like,
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  Speaker 3: oh shit, did I watch the wrong one?
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  Speaker 1: No?
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  Speaker 3: I was like, wait, was I on the wrong network.
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  Speaker 2: The other is Peacock. They have a documentary called sex
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  Speaker 2: Lies in the College Cult. The defining difference between the
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  Speaker 2: two is the Peacock documentary is a like ninety minute
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  Speaker 2: documentary and this is three one hour episodes, so this
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  Speaker 2: is definitely a more involved watch. Are normally really put
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: off when a documentary is multiple episodes, but I feel
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  Speaker 2: like this one actually needed to be because there is
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of carnage in this story, and there are
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: a lot of victims, and they all, I think, deserve
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  Speaker 2: to have their stories told and heard, and you get
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: a lot of that in this Some of it is
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  Speaker 2: really rough to listen to. One thing I was struck
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  Speaker 2: by having seen both documentaries. The Peacock documentary goes into
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Claudia's story a little more in depth than this one
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  Speaker 2: part of her story, the sex trafficking part, especially the
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  Speaker 2: just all of that, like all of her sex work
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  Speaker 2: that she did to pay this guy the money that
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  Speaker 2: she perceived as having owed him.
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  Speaker 3: Did she comment or did she Did she participate in
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  Speaker 3: the Peacock No.
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  Speaker 2: She didn't participate in either of the documentaries. That's another
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  Speaker 2: thing this one has over Peacock. More of the people
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  Speaker 2: who lived in the house actually are interviewed in this
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  Speaker 2: documentary as opposed to that one. I think this is
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  Speaker 2: the better of the two, and I think it does
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  Speaker 2: need to be as long as it is.
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  Speaker 3: Well, what was also interesting too, Like you said, like
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  Speaker 3: we actually got to see like the actual footage. In
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  Speaker 3: a lot of times are these documentaries like you see
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  Speaker 3: like actors act out and it's like, okay, well then
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  Speaker 3: what really happened? In about forty minutes into the first hour,
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  Speaker 3: I was like, wait, are these real? This is all
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  Speaker 3: real footage? And I was like trying to google what
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  Speaker 3: all these people look like. These aren't actors. This psycho
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  Speaker 3: was filming breaking these humans, breaking these humans.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, he absolutely wrecked these kids. That's one of the
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  Speaker 2: reasons I'm inclined to think he's using skills he picked
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  Speaker 2: up somewhere, and it seems like they are skills he
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: would have learned in like military intelligence or something along
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  Speaker 2: those lines. Like there're scenes that are just torture, Like
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  Speaker 2: he's like like straight up torturing these kids in some cases,
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  Speaker 2: But it seems like what he's really good at is
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  Speaker 2: figuring out not just how to break these kids down,
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  Speaker 2: but how to break each one down individually, because.
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  Speaker 3: Like specifically to their psyche, like what would.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, there's one kid who's unsure about his sexuality,
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  Speaker 2: so Larry Ray becomes his sex coach. And there's Santos
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  Speaker 2: who it seems like he couldn't find an inn with
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  Speaker 2: that kid, so he just starts accusing him of breaking
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  Speaker 2: everything in the house and like gaslights this kid into
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  Speaker 2: thinking he broke everything in the house.
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  Speaker 3: And then but then he's already got everybody on his side,
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  Speaker 3: so everyone in the house is like not being like, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: you broke that stuff, but no one is like defending
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  Speaker 3: him either. Everyone is just like so he's he's how
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  Speaker 3: he's talking about it. He's like, I don't remember doing it,
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  Speaker 3: but I need him to not be mad at me.
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  Speaker 3: And then I start to believe that I had done it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, just the speed with which he breaks these kids.
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  Speaker 2: He's not doing normal shit, Like he picked this all
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  Speaker 2: up somewhere, And I feel like, my, I guess bigger
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  Speaker 2: conspiracy about this. Larry Ray talks about having all these
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: really powerful friends. Yeah, and we see evidence that he
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  Speaker 2: does have a lot of power.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of them are powerful. Yeah, it's not
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  Speaker 3: not real.
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  Speaker 2: And if I had to make guess, I would bet
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  Speaker 2: the reason those powerful friends didn't come through for him
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  Speaker 2: this time is because he was caught using like military
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  Speaker 2: grade mind control on a bunch of fucking college kids.
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  Speaker 2: And if people start coming to his defense like he's
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  Speaker 2: risking out in company secrets, at that point, I feel
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  Speaker 2: like he just crossed a lot, Like he obviously crossed
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  Speaker 2: a line.
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  Speaker 3: But I mean like in the eyes of life, yeah, but.
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  Speaker 2: I think in the eyes of the people who might
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: have protected him in a situation like this, I would
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  Speaker 2: suspect with them he probably crossed a bit of a
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  Speaker 2: line doing this, Because God, I don't care how hardened
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  Speaker 2: of a CIA veteran you are, Like, if you just
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  Speaker 2: spent your career like toppling governments and shit, you're gonna
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  Speaker 2: see this, and it's gonna pull it your heart strings too,
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  Speaker 2: because like the CIA dudes have kids and like I
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  Speaker 2: just they're gonna see this and be like, you, motherfucker.
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  Speaker 3: You ruined these people. I mean, like the end, a
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: lot of them are. But I mean, Isabella, she's her
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  Speaker 3: life is ruined. Like that's that's it. That's all she wrote.
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  Speaker 2: She's she's all fucked up.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, like she already was fucked up going into the situation,
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  Speaker 3: and now she's like her mom's like twenty years sober
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  Speaker 3: and is like I would love to talk to her.
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  Speaker 3: And this woman just was listening to like the mom
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  Speaker 3: was like, I want to come see Isabella and help her.
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  Speaker 3: And this woman was listening to Larry because she had
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  Speaker 3: all this guilt about being a bad mom and an alcoholic,
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  Speaker 3: and Larry was like, yeah, you'll just make things worse.
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  Speaker 3: Don't come here. So like keeping her mom away, he
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  Speaker 3: was able to fully. That's why I think she's a victim.
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  Speaker 3: She was a kid.
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  Speaker 2: Man.
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  Speaker 3: If Felicia, who was older, was like was now like
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  Speaker 3: a conspirator, I would I would get that. But the
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  Speaker 3: fact that she was, I mean she they oh my god,
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  Speaker 3: she was one of the saddest one. They're so sad.
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  Speaker 3: I'm yeah, I'm like stuttering. Sorry.
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  Speaker 2: So this all starts in twenty ten, when, okay, when
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  Speaker 2: a group of friends all are starting their sophomore year
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  Speaker 2: at Sarah Lawrence College in New York. Gabe, Dan, Max, Claudia,
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  Speaker 2: Isabella Santos, Juliana, and Talia. They all live together in
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  Speaker 2: the house. And then there's another friend named Raven who
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  Speaker 2: is around but doesn't live in the house. And I
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  Speaker 2: think she brings a lot to this documentary. I don't
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  Speaker 2: believe that she was in the Peacock documentary, but she's
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  Speaker 2: interviewed a lot in this, and she brings a really
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  Speaker 2: interesting perspective in that she's that one friend who when
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  Speaker 2: this all started, was like, is fucked up? This scenms
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  Speaker 2: fucked up? I'm gonna go, yeah, are we sure this
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  Speaker 2: is what we want to do? And she's the one
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  Speaker 2: who leaves and they all like tell her to fuck
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  Speaker 2: off over it, and she even explains it as like
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  Speaker 2: at first they would be like, well, no, Larry's helping me,
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  Speaker 2: and then she would bring it up again later and
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  Speaker 2: they'd be like, hey, fuck anyone who says Larry's hurting
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  Speaker 2: me And then she'd bring it up later and they'd
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  Speaker 2: be like, hey, fuck you if you think Larry's hurting me,
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  Speaker 2: and if you do, we can just never talk again.
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  Speaker 2: And that's what fucking comes to pass. They just cut
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  Speaker 2: her off because she's not going for what Larry is
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  Speaker 2: selling in this house.
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  Speaker 3: Oh can you imagine the guilt and relief you would
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  Speaker 3: have as that woman, like that you didn't try harder
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  Speaker 3: to help your friends, but also the relief that you
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  Speaker 3: had something in your brain that was like, nah, I'm
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  Speaker 3: gonna go you know what I mean, Like not guilt,
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  Speaker 3: like not that it's her fault, but like guilt is
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  Speaker 3: a human reaction to being a survivor's guilt is real.
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  Speaker 2: You know. Oh yeah, for sure. That's one of the
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  Speaker 2: things that makes me skeptical of Talia's role in this,
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  Speaker 2: because you're right that she was. Once she had this
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  Speaker 2: group of people, she would just constantly talk up her
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: dad and talk about how great he was and how
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  Speaker 2: unjustly he was treated by the criminal justice system and
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  Speaker 2: how there were people out to get him. And Raven
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  Speaker 2: is the exception in that group where she's the one
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  Speaker 2: who almost immediately is like, no, this is fucked up.
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  Speaker 2: But I feel like I would have maybe been like, no,
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  Speaker 2: this is fucked up. And I feel like I know
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  Speaker 2: a lot of people who would have been like.
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  Speaker 3: I'm forty sure it would have been like, Nope, this
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  Speaker 3: I had have fucked up dad. So anytime I have like,
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: I have like not that fucked up of a dad,
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  Speaker 3: but a pretty fucked up dad. And anytime I have
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  Speaker 3: any kind of radar of anything like that, I'm like,
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  Speaker 3: I'm gonna leave, I'm gonna dip I already in. I
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  Speaker 3: think that's why I have such like empathy Fortalia, because
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  Speaker 3: I understand.
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  Speaker 2: But see that's where I like I do. But I
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  Speaker 2: also question, like, what a stroke of luck for Larry
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  Speaker 2: Ray that all of these people who were so clearly
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  Speaker 2: kind of like preconditioned to fall for something like this
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  Speaker 2: all end up in the same house together. It's weird
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  Speaker 2: that he got this perfect group of people to do
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  Speaker 2: this on, because I don't think a randomly selected group
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  Speaker 2: of people, I don't think this would have worked as well.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I don't. I'm not questioning that Talia didn't handpick
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  Speaker 3: these people to do this. What I'm saying is, like,
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  Speaker 3: the only example I can think of right now is
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: a young girl gets groomed by a man and then
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: when she ages out, a lot of times she goes
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: out and finds a new girl for him. That's that's
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: a pretty common thing in the set, like the sex
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  Speaker 3: trafficking world or the abuse world. And she, though now
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  Speaker 3: is a predator, she became a predator because she was
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  Speaker 3: a victim and knew nothing else. So that's what I
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  Speaker 3: think Talia for sure, I think that's why she was
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  Speaker 3: never charged. But she for sure brought all these people.
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  Speaker 3: That wasn't by mistake, but I think it's because this
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  Speaker 3: is a person who is perpetually abused and brainwashed herself
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  Speaker 3: and thought he was you know, it was brainwashingt he's
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: the greatest man a lot and like not only that,
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  Speaker 3: but when Talia had zero to you know, fifteen, that's
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  Speaker 3: when your brain's even more malleable than when these eighteen
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  Speaker 3: year olds. Yes, I think that she definitely brought all
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: these people together on purpose, but I don't think that
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  Speaker 3: that makes her the predator. I think she was groomed
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  Speaker 3: to do that. I think she's still a victim.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's definitely fair, especially given her age, and I
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  Speaker 2: think that probably is why she wasn't charged.
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  Speaker 3: One hundred percent.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, like she was named so she's got that stink
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: to her name, which she probably at least deserves that.
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  Speaker 3: But I don't even think that. I think an abused
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: child all, you know, Like she wasn't a forty year
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: old woman who like was out doing this and had
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: lived in the world for a long time. She had
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: this was all she knew, you know. I think Isabella,
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: like the courts were even trying to be like, you're
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: a victim, please let us help you, because you were
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: a child when this was happening to you. You're a victim,
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: and she's like, nah, And so they even when they
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: were charging her, were calling her a victim in the
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: in the court documents, she was still victim number one,
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: even though now she's getting charged with certain things. So
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: I don't know, I probably won't budge on that. Sorry,
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: but I think she's a victim. I just think we.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Are not leaving until I change her mind. I'm sorry.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: So we're gonna be here till ten years. Just like
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  Speaker 2: the cult.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: It's going to take a fret if this is our
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: cult now.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: So one day Talia just up and tells everyone that
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: her dad's moving in and that's all you ever been
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: in that situation. No, you're living with someone and they're
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: just like, hey, someone else is moving in.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: You're like, oh, fuck, certainly not their parent, Like yeah,
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: maybe like my buddy needs to sleep on her couch
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: for a little bit, and yeah, that is like an
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: old fuck.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: And by that point everyone was so conditioned to hearing
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: tales of how great Larry Ray was on account Italia.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: They didn't think much of it when he moved in
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: at first, because she said it was just gonna be
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: for a few days, he was going to sleep on
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: the couch. And he moves in. He starts telling them
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: about his time in the CIA and how he worked
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: with NATO to help resolve the Kosovo crisis and how
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: he met Mikhail Gorbachev and consulted him, and they talk
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: about how it sounded pretty crazy. But then he would
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: like whip out evidence and like show them letters of commendation,
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: pictures of him with Mikhail Gorbacheff. So that's the part
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: that I like, I could see at least some of
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: those kids, and Santos at least just straight up says
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: like I was hooked, Like I like.
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: I also like these kids also like again by design,
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: they were chosen. Like Dan is a kid. I don't
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: know his upbringing, but he's a kid who's unsure of
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: his sexuality in a time that it's you know, it's
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: not as I mean, it was New York, but it
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: still wasn't you know, ten years ago. It was much
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: different than it is.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: Now, very different. Yeah.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and then those three kids are well, Felicia hadn't
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: moved in yet, but the you know Santos, they grew
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: up very poor in a one bedroom room. So just
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: someone as worldly as Larry like seeing you and being
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: seen by someone like that for the first time. Of
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: course he's hooked.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, so then he just kind of moves in
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: without anyone ever announcing that he's officially moving in.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: He just like is that when Raven was like, yeah,
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna dip out.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: I think it was pretty soon after that she was
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: the one who was dating Dan, right.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: And yes, who is Max? And then the other guy.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: I think they're both people who moved out pretty quick.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Also because there are some kids who were in the
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: house who bail on this pretty fast, and even some
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: of them who at first were starting to get into
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: it eventually are like h and Odd.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Remember there's that scene where Dan basically breaks up with
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Raven because Larry tells him to, and Larry has him
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: get on the phone right then and there and break
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: up with her. And I think that's the point where
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: she finally like leaves for good, but she had pretty
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: much been out before that. And with the kids that
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: he does manage to keep around, it ends up being
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: around five of them at first, Dan, Santos, Claudia, Isabella
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: and Talia and Talia. So Larry Ray starts telling these
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: kids about his philosophy, which is called Quest for Potential.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: It is the system he touts as being the cure
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: to all of their ills. Like he convinces these kids
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: they have anything from depression to schizophrenia. Like whatever he
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: can convince them is wrong. It seems like that's what
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: he goes for. And then just once they believe something,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: he exploits that.
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: Claudia wins, I believe Raven and was like, I'm schizophrenic.
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: I think it was Ray And Raven was like, what, no,
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: you're not, Like you're when did this begin? Who diagnosed you?
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: Like very confused and she was just like I've been schizophrenic.
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: This whole time. And yeah, and then schizophrenic. You know
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: they're schizophrenic, especially if they're not.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: And when Raven tells her she's not, Claudia is like, well,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: you're telling me I'm not schizophrenic. Just makes my schizophrenia worse.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: I don't mean to laugh, but it's, I know, fucking crazy.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: It's so. And again, like when you watch this, you
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: have to take into account you're seeing clips and these
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: kids lived in this situation day in and day out
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: for in some cases a decade. Like that Santo's kid,
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: he's going to be wrecked forever.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: Oh you can see it in his eyes. Yeah, in
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: his interview now where he's just he looks like a child.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: Like he's a grown man, but he looks like a
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: child like. It's like, I hope he gets a job.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: I hope he gets to you know, like, I hope
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: he gets to live some kind of semblance of a
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: life because he and they also they said that they
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: never they only ate when Larry ate, and Larry was
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: on so much adderall that Larry barely ate.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: One thing they don't talk about that much in this
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: version of the documentary is the money this guy had.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: If you look into some of the other sources, like
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: the Peacock documentary, the articles they talk about how Larry
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: not only would like cook for these kids, which they
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: do bring that up in this, but he would walk
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: around with a backpack that just was full of cash
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: and would just carry huge stacks of cash with him
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: at all times, and anything these kids wanted, he would
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: just like do it.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: At first, like, oh, that's how you get him too.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was. He was coming at him from pretty
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: much every angle. Because there's I don't remember the guy
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: with the glasses, I don't remember his name that he's
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: was that Max.
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I found him attractive. Sidebar I was like, is
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: he married? Where's he at?
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Well?
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: He's also one of the ones who fled pretty out early,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: and the only thing that got him that Larry was
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: doing was the cooking. He was like, I was broke
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: and I would come home and there would be steak
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: on the table. That's pretty nice. But then once all
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: the other stuff started, he was like, oh, okay, I
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: can get steak anywhere this is.
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: I'll just be brought for a while. Yeah.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: The first person to really go for his shit is Isabella,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: so much so that they start sleeping in the same room.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: And they and he's like, I'm working on her issues.
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: That's why we're in here alone all night. And it's
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: just oh and that's her his daughter's age.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: It's just it's not just that she's his daughter's age.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: She kind of looks like his daughter.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, And that's why that's why I die on
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: Thetalia Hill. Who the fuck knows what happened to that
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: little girl before he went to you know what I mean?
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: The fact that he was just able to just do
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: that with Yeah, it just it's icky.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: It's very uncomfortable. Yeah. One aspect of Larry Ray's personality
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: that is especially baffling to me is he recorded everything,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Like I get the part where he would record these
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: kids confessing to shit so he could get like blackmail material.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Like I understand why you do that if you're trying
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: to build up a cult. Yeah, but like why record,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: for example, the phone call with Isabella's mom, Like it's
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: for one thing, it's a heartbreaking phone call. He knows
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: like he's already heard everything Isabella's mom did when Isabella
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: was a kid, Like Isabella's mom was a drug addict
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: and an alcoholic, and Isabella had a rough upbringing, and
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: Larry Ray gets all this information and calls Isabella's mom
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: with Isabella in the room and is like, you were
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: a bad mom, and your daughter is going to commit
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: suicide over it if she comes home and never sees
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: you again. So this mom is just like, okay, Like
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: I guess I don't want my kid to kill herself,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: so I guess, don't come home.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: Was she sober at this point?
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: She hadn't been.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: Think she's twenty years sober at the dock at the
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: time of the doc, so I think she was at
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: this point alcohol.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know in terms of drugs, but either way,
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: like she for one thing, she was like I didn't
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: have the money to go there, Like I couldn't. I
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: couldn't go rescue her. And that's the other thing. He
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: didn't just get kids who were personally susceptible to his
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: kind of shenanigans. He got kids whose families were susceptible
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: to it, like Santos and Elitza and Felicia's family, Like
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: their parents don't even really speak English, Like I don't
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: believe they spoke English during any of the interviews, Like
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: you can tell they don't have a lot of money,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: and like, I grew up super poor, and I can
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: imagine like someone with that much money coming into your
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: life and not only offering to fix all your problems,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: but also now you're eating good and you have nice clothes,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Like that's gonna go a long fucking way. Like when
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: you grow up poor, you really want nothing else in
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: life except to not be poor anymore, because being poor
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: fucking sucks. And I'm not saying that in like some
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: kind of jokey mocking way, like if you're poor, you
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: fucking know it sucks. And he like he prayed on
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: that too, And that's one of the reasons I like
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: that this documentary exists because people need to know to
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: watch for shit like this. Yeah, because this all happens
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: like it happens over the course of ten years, but
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: he gets his hooks in them fast, Like that part
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: doesn't take ten years. It takes like ten weeks at best.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: And this wasn't in this you know what I mean,
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: Like the internet existed, like this is like modern time.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: Like a lot of these brainwashing documentaries you see are like, oh,
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: he was like the the you know, charismatic neighbor, and
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: he basically took over our family. But it was like
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: nineteen seventy in Utah. This is New York in twenty ten.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: Like that's how still it can happen, you know.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And one of the first things he starts doing
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: is separating these kids from their support systems. Like that's
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: clearly what he's doing with be it the phone calls
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: to Isabella's mom or even the thing where he gets
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: between Dan and Raven. Yeah, because at that point, Dan,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: I think even said he wasn't super close with his family,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: like it was kind of just Raven that was, you know,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: his confidant in life. And so Larry gets in between
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: them and gets her out of his life. And he
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: just kind of systematically these kids away from their support
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: system so he can become their main support system. And
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: he does it so fast.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: And what's all so crazy is he does it to
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: all of them. Like it's always like when you don't
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: have any siblings and fucked up shit happens, you can't
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: look at your sibling. You have nobody to look at
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: and be like this fucked up, right, Yeah, But it's
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: always like if you have siblings, you can at least
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: have that support system that you're in this but he
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: somehow got these kids to also not talk to each
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: other about this stuff, like fear like if you do this,
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: this is gonna happen to you know what. Like he
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: somehow also got these kids not to confide in each
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: other about how fucked up it all was, because two
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: of them, when they reunited, they were like, it felt
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: so good to know that you saw what I saw.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: They didn't talk of it, like, I don't even begin
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: to know how you would do that.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so if the first episode kind of goes
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: through each kid's story, not every single one, but that
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: first initial atch of kids, and the stuff about the
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: playlist he would make them listen to was weird.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: Remind me of that. I don't remember that well.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: I remember reading that he would wake the house up
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: by oh yeah, making them listen to Baba O'Reilly by
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: the Who, which is the teenage Wasteland song It's yes,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: I remember, called Bobo O'Reilly, but it was actually a
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: whole playlist, but it was all like really dark, like
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: sixties psychedelic type stuff or stuff along the lines of
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: Babo O'Reilly. And I found that interesting because there's a
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: really compelling conspiracy theory out there about that sixties Laurel
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Canyon scene, like the Doors, Frank Zappa, the Birds, like
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: all those sixties musicians who end up all congregating in
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Laurel Canyon and sort of starting the counterculture movement.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know about that.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Almost all of those people are the children of military
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: intelligence people like, oh wow, we did an episode about it.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: It's a book now, but there at one point, and
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: it still exists on the internet. I'll try and find
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: it and put it in the show notes. But there
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: is an eighteen part magazine article about all the Laurel
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Canyon stuff and how so many of those people just
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: weirdly have ties to military intelligence. And we know from
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: what files about MK Ultra were able to be recovered
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: that the CIA was pretty heavily involved in the counterculture
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: movement and the proliferation of acid and like the CIA
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: ran a brothel in San Francisco in the nineteen sixties,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: which is one of those things that people bring up,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: is like, oh, can you believe that? Every time I
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: think about that, my first thought is where did the
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: women come from?
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: And where did the women go after?
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Speaking of sex trafficking, Like, yeah, I guarantee they didn't
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: staff that with like CIA workers.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: Like yeah, when you said that, I wasn't like, oh interesting,
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: I was like, oh.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So the fact that he's like this playlist
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: is mostly music from that era, Like again, I'm like, oh,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: feels like some CIA shit.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: I don't know, I mean it would make sense. I
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: mean a lot of I mean a lot of these
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: guys who are sociopaths, Like he's an obvious you know, psychopath,
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: like from not not from us being like he's a psychopath,
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: but like from the psychology actual definition of someone who's
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: a sociopath psychopath. They are good liars and are able
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: to do, you know, manipulate with lies. But a lot
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: of this is like why would he have here's a
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: picture of me and this guy. Here's here's real palpable proof,
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: you know, palpable. Yeah, that's word proof.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And we've mentioned Santos and Elitza and Felicia a
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: little bit so far, and I think, again, it's not
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: a competition, but I do think they are the saddest
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: story here because it's, for one thing, three siblings. At
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: one point, Santos calls Yulitza, who by her own admission,
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: was living a very lonely existence at the time, She's
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: very unhappy and he was like, listen, this fucking dad
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: that moved into my college home has turned my whole
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: life around. And I think if you were to move
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: in with us, he could turn your life around too,
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: And so she does, and now they're all living in
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: a one bedroom apartment in Manhattan. Eventually they leave the
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Sarah Lawrence college residence. This is another detail that the
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Peacock documentary gets into in a little more detail, which
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: is that apartment they do finally in episode two interview.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: The guy who owned the apartment is a guy named
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: Lee Chen. Yeah, and he, in some way or another,
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: had come under the spell of Larry at a previous
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: point in life. And when Larry gets released from prison,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: he offers to let Larry crash on his couch. This
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: guy's got a one bedroom apartment in Manhattan and he's like,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: you can sleep on my couch, and Larry's like thanks,
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: and immediately moves in this gaggle of college kids that
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: he is turning into a cult, and they all move
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: into this one bedroom apartment. And it doesn't come up
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: in this documentary, but Lee Chen I believe he said
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: it took four years to finally get an actual eviction
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: order against Larry Ray.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, and then.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Another two years before the police would come out and
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: actually enforce that eviction order. So I know it would
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: be tempting to watch this documentary and hear Lee Chen.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: His story in this documentary just kind of ends with
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: him being like, so I just stayed away from the
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: apartment mostly.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought that that was a big gap of
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: something that happened, but so much what else was going
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: on that I quickly forgot about it.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they don't mention it at all. But he
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: didn't just like let this happen. He tried very very
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: hard to get Larry Ray evicted from that apartment, but
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: once you let someone move in, it's really hard to
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: evict them. So I know people might watch this and
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: be like, why didn't you just kick him out? He tried.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: He just did it by the letter of the law.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: So it took six years.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: And that's the thing, Like if he would have just
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: like thrown that guy out with all of their stuff
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: and changed the locks. That also, I think Larry legally
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: would have had some grounds of something because like it's
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: very once you move someone in it's extreme. I mean
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: it's extremely hard now for me, as like a tenant
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: to be evicted, Like it's really like I just don't
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: have to pay my rent and it takes a while
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: for them to The laws are insane with that.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they touch on the property damage stuff a little
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: bit in the first episode. One of the things he
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: would do is convince these kids that they were damaging
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: stuff in the apartment and that they were subconsciously doing
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: it on purpose to hurt him. And Santos gets that
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: the worst. Yeah, like he and again he records all
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: of this, so there's all these recordings of him just
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: berating Santos about breaking stuff in the house and Santos
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: is like, will you just like give me a clue
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: as to what it was? And that sounds weird. But
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: one of the things he was convincing these kids he
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: was doing was uncovering repressed memories, and he had them
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: convinced that even like, oh, well, you broke a plate
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: two days ago and you've since you did it to
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: hurt me, but now you've repressed that memory and you
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: don't remember, so now you need to just admit it.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: And he would just fucking browbeat this kid until this
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: kid would finally be like, all right, yeah, man, I
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: broke like everything in the house. And he does eventually
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: come up with a list of like everything he could
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: have possibly come into contact with that's what he broke,
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: and it's like forty seven thousand dollars worth of shit.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: It is heartbreaking.
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: And then also in the video that he's coming up
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: with it, other people are sitting next to him, and
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: that's like the wild thing that like no one was like,
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: I don't think you did that, because I also you know,
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: like these kids were so Larry that they just watched
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: it happen to each other.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: That's the thing about Isabella though, is where the other
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: kids would just like watch and not say anything, like
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: especially in this moment, Isabella is the one who's like,
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: it's black and white, you're lying, and every.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: Rebella also was probably sleeping with Larry and also was yeah,
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: and not getting any of this treatment because of it.
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: So there also is the survivor's mind too of just
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: like I don't think it's even something conscious. I just
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: I don't know, I know, I'm really heavy hitting standing
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: up for these girls, but.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: Well, no, I don't think that's that's the wrong path
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: to take either. Like, I mean, there's there's multiple ways
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: to look at it. And obviously everyone here is a
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: victim to some extent. Yeah, there's that guy's yeah. Well yeah,
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: obviously everyone is a victim of him. Yeah, and yeah,
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: things get so bad with Santos. He first ask his
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: parents for money, and they're so broke they end up
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: pawning some jewelry.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: For like seven hundred dollars, yeah.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: And give him seven hundred and fifty dollars and all
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: they have. He takes that to Larry, and Larry's like, well,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: if you really wanted to help, you would get more
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: money than that, Like you're not even trying. So then
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Santos like starts calling all of his friends, all of
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: his family, all of his associates asking for money. And
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: one guy who was a friend who lived in the
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: house initially was like, he called and asked me for
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: like twenty five thousand dollars. I was working as like
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: a barista at the time. I didn't have it, and
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: it's the last time I ever heard from him. Highly sad,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: very sad.
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: Sad by the way, that guy was a shade to
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: Giggly throughout the whole time he was being inter.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: A little bit.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he was a little too, like this is wild dude.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: Like it was just like, okay, you're the only one
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: that doesn't seem like you care as much as the
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: other Like Max and Raven were like, this is heartbreaking.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: We should have done more. And this guy's like live
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: it up. Well, I don't know that. Every time he
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: was on the screen, I was like, fucking hate that guy.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: At the beginning of episode two, they bring up Bernard Carrick,
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: who isn't okay figure in this story?
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: Okay. I was so confused by that, Like I was like,
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: was I supposed to Is that somebody I'm supposed to know?
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: Or is she used to be the chief of the NYPD?
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: Okay?
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: And he's like a big political figure in New York.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: But he also I think went to prison for a
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: little bit. Like he's yeah, he's well known. He's like
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: a less a less cartoonish Rudy Giuliani sort of like
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: he's one of those like New York figures. He and
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Larry Ray used to be friends. Larry was the best
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: man at Bernie Carrick's wedding. Eventually those two have a
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: falling out, and Bernie Carrick becomes a central figure in
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: this household. In that Larry starts, on top of convincing
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: these kids that they're like breaking stuff and doing things
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: to hurt him, he also convinces them that either they
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: or in some cases their parents are working in conspiracy
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: with Bernie Carrick to hurt him. And it gets to
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: the point where these kids start admitting to it. They're like, yep,
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: I met with Bernie Carrick when I was a kid,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: and my family has been working against you ever since,
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: and just like making shit up.
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: Did they ever get a comment from Bernie Carrick. Yeah,
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: they interview him in this Okay, how did I miss
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: that whole thing?
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, he looks radically different in his like, he
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: looks way different now than he did in the footage
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: you see. So when they're interviewing him, it looks like
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: a different person.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: He's like an old white guy that's like, oh, yeah,
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: he was bald now yeah bald? Yeah, okay, okay, And
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: he was like, yeah, we were friends and he was
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: he seemed like a powerful guy, had a lot of money.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But they move away from that pretty quick, which
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: I found a little disappointing. I wanted to know more
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: about his connections in that way.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: Which also holds up with your whole conspiracy theory by
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: the way.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: And this is also where they talked to Lee Chen.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: Lee Chen has a really interesting quote where early on,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: when Larry moved all these kids into the apartment, Lee
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Chen was like, why are you so interested in this
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: group of college kids? And Larry Ray's quote was you
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: and I can only do so much, but I'm building
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: an army. Oh and that feels like more CIA shit and.
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: Building an army for what? Like why wasn't that guy
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: like get out of my house? I'm sure he a
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: billion times said that. Yeah, but yeah that made me.
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: That was one of the times that I went, why
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: am I watching this?
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah? It it's weird, and it's all related because at
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: one point he starts tying Santos to destroying his stuff
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: to Bernie Carrick, and he starts implying that they were
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: conspiring together to ruin Larry's life, and Santos is the
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: first one who starts making up stories about him meeting
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: with Bernie Carrick when he clearly did not, and he
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: said it was just so Larry would stop interrogating him,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: and hey, that's how torture works. Yeah, we found that
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: out during the War on Terror. There were several high
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: profile instances where we tortured people and got information and
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: then found out, Oh, they just told us that, so
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: we would stop torturing.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: Them, waterboarding them or like what. Yeah, and that he
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: was writing out confessions too, like not that Larry didn't
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: just have videos. He had confessed like handwritten confessions from
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: these kids.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he gets handwritten confessions, he gets video confessions. And
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: that absolutely is some cult shit, Like that's jonestown did that.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: Scientology does that. Like every cult you can name. One
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: of the first things they're gonna do is be like, hey,
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: you know, just in the name of like clearing your
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: conscience and clearing your soul, how about you write down
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: every bad thing you've ever done in life?
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: And then uh, just Nostalgy totally does that.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they do it because if you ever act up,
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: they have all of the dirt they need on you
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: to ruin your life. But when you're in those early
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: stages where it seems like they're helping, I can see
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: how slipping in. Oh here's another exercise. Just write down
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: all the bad shit you've ever done, you know it,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: just like it expunges it from your soul. It's fine,
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: and it's like you're.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: Trusting and you're like this place is helping me and
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: I love it. So that's a good Yeah. Oh God.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: And so Isabella versus Felicia, that's an interesting story. Isabella
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: had kind of positioned herself as Larry Ray's girlfriend. Yeah,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: but then at one point Larry gets his hooks into Felicia,
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: who is the older sister of Ylitza and Santos, and
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: they first meet because she just flies out to visit.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: She's living in la at the time. She the way
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: she described it, was approximately two weeks away from becoming
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: a doctor. Like she's doing a.
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: Residence Columbia and Harvard, right.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: Columbia and Harvard, and was doing a residency at USC.
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: Like she grew up dirt poor and then came up
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: from nothing. I mean, I think she's one of the
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: most heartbreaking stories.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: I think so too, because she's like right on the
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: cusp of achieving all of her dreams. And then she
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: meets Larry Ray and they strike up a long distance
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: relationship and she essentially becomes his girlfriend, and with about
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: two weeks to go in her residency, so two weeks
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: before she becomes an actual medical doctor achieves all of
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: her dreams in life. She leaves the residency and moves
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: into this one bedroom apartment in Manhattan to become Larry
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: Ray's girlfriend. Gets there and is immediately sharing a bed
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: with Larry and Isabella.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: But how he got her there. He convinces her that
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: she's being followed and they're gonna murder her, and that, like,
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: he convinces her she's not safe in California without him,
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: so that's why she and so now she's like on
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: her breaks with you know, doing residency. She's coming out,
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: she's talking to Larry, she's crying. She's like, I think
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: people are following me all this stuff, and then she's
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: like they're paging me. I have to go back into
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: the hospital. And so then she eventually I think she
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: eventually gets let go because she's like or she leaves.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: She either leaves, but then she tries to come back
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: and they're like, no, you can't. Yeah, But that's how
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: he gets her away, is he gets her so paranoid
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: that people are after her because of him, and that
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: she's so unsafe and she's like, I'm starting to believe
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: they're following me.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And the footage of her when she finally arrives
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: at the apartment is horrifying.
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: Like a different human because she's.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Just crying uncontrollably and talking like you can tell it's
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: fucking gibberish about people who are plotting to kill her,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: and you can tell from how hysterical she is that
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: there aren't people plotting to kill her like and it
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: one of the things I found really interesting that I
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: also think speaks to Larry Ray being on some CIA shit.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Felicia wasn't just doing a medical residency. She was doing
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: a psychology residency. So if anyone should have been able
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: to see through his shit and put a stop to it,
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: it should have been her.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: This this brilliant woman already. And then also add the education.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: One of the reasons Felicia and Larry Ray bonded. She
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: was a psychologist essentially, or on the verge of being
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: a for real psychologist, and she said she would talk
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: to Larry about psychology and he could just like keep
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: up with her beat for beat. Oh yeah, And I
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: feel like that also speaks to this being some CIA
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: type shit, Like.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: What about though, they said that they looked up his
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: old records and I'm not remembering like fully, but where
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: they had interviewed him, where it was like they looked
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: into him and a lot of it was like, we
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: can't even explain this person's psyche like doctor records from
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: we can't even explain this person.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: Well there was, Yeah, there's something in one of his
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: medical records where a psychologist or a psychiatrist essentially said
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: there's not really any point in trying to like evaluate
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: him because he's able to manipulate any situation you get
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: him in.
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: That adds to your whole theory.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking of horrifying, one of the videos we see
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: in this is a video of him abusing Dan with
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: a pair of plyers, And as horrible as the part
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: where he clamps the pliers onto Dan's tongue, is the
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: part that was even worse to me was after he
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: unhooked it, he kept like just sort of hitting Dan
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: in the stomach with the pliers and like eventually Dan
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: starts like flinching in this way that like people never
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: should like you should never be that scared of a
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: person who's like especially non person animal. Yeah, yeah, well
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: it reminded me of at one point a few years ago,
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: there were all these viral videos of dogs in China
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: that would like walk on their hind legs, like only
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: they would only walk on their hind legs, and people
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: were like, oh my god, it's so cute. And then
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: someone posted a video of how they train dogs to
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: do that, and what they do is stand them up
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: in a corner on their hind legs and whenever they
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: try to get down, they hit them in the stomach
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: with a shoe.
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: Oh god, I can't hear that. I'm sorry, Oh I can't.
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: I just want to go hug my cat in it.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Like seeing Dan in that situation reminded me of those videos,
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: like yeah, abuse, he broke that guy down to the
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: point of a fucking two legged poodle. But Dan is
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: one of the people also who among that core group.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: He's one of the first also to get the fuck
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: out of there.
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: He just like wandered up on the roof one night
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: and was like, either can jump or I can just
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: walk out with all all that I have on my back,
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: and that's it, right.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he said. For some reason he was home alone
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: one night, which like almost never happened, and yeah, he
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: went up to the roof and was like, I could
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: I could get out of this by just killing myself
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: And then he's.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: Like that or I can just leave And he said
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: that he hadn't been able to have those thoughts because
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: he was never alone, so there was never a moment
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: where his brain could go, hey, you I'm in here still,
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: Uh can let's get the fuck out of here? What
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: do you do? Like he was just constant noise and
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: no like sleeping odd hours and eating weird like odd
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: times and like.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's one of the things that's so frightening
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: about this to me because I keep saying it, but
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: we're seeing three hours of footage of this and like,
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: think about what you just said. Like that was the
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: first moment Dan was even alone enough to think, Okay,
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: I have options for leaving. And I know people there
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: are people that will watch this and be like, why
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: didn't you just walk out the fucking door? And like,
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: when you're living in that situation all the time, that's
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: not even it's not even gonna be an option.
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: Like no, you don't even you don't even have you
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: don't even have the quietness in your brain, like there's
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: so many things happening in your brain that are like
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: at one point, Felicia was talking about memories and she
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: was like, I gotta stop myself. I'm sorry, that was
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: Larry brain. Let me rephrase, like, so it's like these
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: kids had the brain is so malleable and it's so fragile,
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: and it's so you know, and ah, he just walked out.
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: He just walked out. And I don't know what happened
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: to him right after that, but I know what happened
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: to him later. But yeah, oh so fucking heartbreaking.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: So the next thing that happens, at least in the
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: documentary timeline, is Claudia's video confession about oh God, poisoning
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: everyone in the house. The people in the house like
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: they hear this, and some of them, especially like Isabella
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: and Felicia, are like for a long time, are like, yeah, man,
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: Claudia was poisoning.
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: Us and that's why I'm like this, like right.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: And as a means of making amends for poisoning everyone,
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Claudia becomes a sex worker and over the course of
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: several years, ends up giving Larry Ray more than a
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: million dollars.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: I think than I think over like one year was
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: like seven hundred thousand. Yeah, another year, Yeah, it was
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: like and like each year it was like a crazy
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: amount of money.
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: And she's just like, this is a thing. The Peacock
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: documentary gives a little more detail on, like it's not
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: just that she was doing sex work for him, she
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: was doing it like fourteen hours a day every day
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: for years and years and years and that thing where
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: is they briefly touch on this incident where I think
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: she was trying to leave because what doesn't come up
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: in this documentary. She had a client who I think
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: was also like a journalist or something like that, and
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: they like form this bond and he eventually is like,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: I can fucking help you escape if you need to,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: and they how long.
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: Was he paying for sex with her before? He was
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: like most probably your moral I can help you.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: Sorry, that's like a that's a sidebar.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: But Jesus, But that incident that they briefly touch on
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: here where Isabella and Larry show up at her hotel
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: room and like tie her to a chair. They have
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: video of that in the Peacock documentary.
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: And show the video.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: Well, they only show Isabella and Larry leaving the room
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: and the camera is like on Claudia's face, but you
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: see some of it. I don't know why they don't
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: go into more detail about that incident here, but it's
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: pretty fucking heroin, Like she was tortured by at least
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: by Larry, but Isabella was in the room and it
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: seems like she maybe participated in it. Also, that I
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: think is the most worthwhile thing about watching both documentaries
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: is to hear more about Claudia's story, because they feel
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: like they really do sort of gloss over it.
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: In Klaudia was like one of the main the only
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: the sex trafficking charge, like the big charge that it
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: was all go to prison for the rest of his life,
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: like sex charge. Sex trafficking is like the highest one.
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: I'm wondering if the reason why they didn't touch too
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: much on her on this this Hulu is because because
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: it's the main reason he went to prison for. He's
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: going to prison for as long as he is. Sex
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: trafficking is the highest charge, right right, And I'm wondering
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: if Claudia didn't want to be a part of this
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: documentary and maybe these documentary ers I don't know these filmmakers.
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: I don't wanted wanted to. Uh, I don't know why
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: I tried to make up a word. Wanted to respect
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: her privacy by just glossing over this, like being like,
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: we don't need to this woman doesn't want to be
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: a part of this, so maybe we just tell as
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: much as we need to tell out of respect for
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: this victim.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that could very well be. And if so, I
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: respect that choice. Yeah, same, And so so that actually
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: ends up kind of being Larry's undoing because Raven sees
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: this video and is like, I don't remember being poisoned.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: That sounds weird. What's going on in Claudia's life? And
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: she starts doing some internet sleuthin and finds a phone
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: number on one of Claudia's videos, Oh yeah, and googles
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: that phone number and finds that it is tied to
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: an escort profile, and that escort profile belongs to Claudia,
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: and that's how they find out that she is being
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: sex trafficked. Raven tries to call the police, Yeah they don't,
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: and the police, she says her own words are the
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: police laughed it off.
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: So then tell us again, why we don't like police.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, god, exactly. So then she calls a reporter friend
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: who also graduated from Sarah Lawrence and that is the
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: point where everything falls apart for Larry Ray because what
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: eventually is Larry Ray is undoing is the articles that
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: came out about this in I want to say it
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: was New York Magazine was the first article. And that's
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: when this that's when things fell apart for Larry.
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: Well, he was able to be like, yeah, I'll interview
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: with you, but look, I have all of these handwritten confessions,
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: so I'm clearly fine. These kids are the ones that
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: are like that's when that stuff came in. And then
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: they also moved to that house in New Jersey at
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: some point.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I forgot about that. At one point they do.
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: That's Dan's gone. Now it's just Felicia, Elitza and Santos
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: and Isabella, right, And.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: So this article comes out and I think that's where
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: they arrest Larry Ray is at the house in New Jersey.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: That yeah, not only did they all move, did they
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: all move to this house? But he also makes the
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: kids like renovated and like hardcore renovated, like landscaping the
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: whole thing.
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: And that's when I think Santos up and left and
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: Ulita up and left soon after. I don't remember who
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: left first, but I think Ulitsa one night just walked
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: out and then kept walking and then started hiding from
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: what she assumed they were gonna call the police.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think when that happened, Santos was like,
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: you're gonna You're gonna be in trouble, and she was like, no,
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: I'm not. You leave too, and then he eventually walked out.
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: He's like, I walked out with just the clothes on
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: my back.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: And at the point where Larry gets arrested, it's kind
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: of just Felicia and Isabella left. They're both in the house.
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: And they're like sister wives at this point, like they're
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: like they share Larry because they're like, we should get
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: a dog.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: And that is the big selling point of this version
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: of the Sarah Lawrence College cult documentaries, Whereas the Peacock
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: one delves into Claudia's stuff a little more heavily, none
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: of this stuff with Felicia and Isabella, like the interviews,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: they're not interviewed in it, Like, oh, Felicia and Isabella
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: just get kind of a blurb at the end, whereas
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: in this like they're actually interviewed in it, and when
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: they're first interviewed they're both still deep into it, like
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: they're both still.
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: They're gonna find justice for Larry. Yeah, it's gonna Yeah.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: They are devoted followers of Larry Ray and they interview
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: them at the beginning of episode three, and not long
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: after that interview is when Felicia starts changing her tune
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: because she's still very smart, like she fell into a
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: very bad situation, but she's also smart enough to know
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: that when her lawyers come to her and go, hey,
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: don't say another fucking word like what you just said
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: on documentary. I feel like that flipped a switch in
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: her head where she they were.
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: Like, don't see Isabella again, like she moved out, and
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: Isabella was like do you want to see and she
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: was like, I just need to not be like again.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: I think the same thing with Dan, like the brain
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: finally was quiet and was able to be like yo.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And episode three it deals mostly with the aftermath
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: for Isabella and Felicia. She was in a cult and
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: it takes a long time to extract someone from that situation.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: When they first interview her, she's still calling Larry Ray
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: her husband and they weren't even married, and.
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: She's like, like I said, like when she like was later,
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: when she was better better, But she would start to
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: tell a story and be like, wait a minute, I'm sorry,
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: I have to rephrase. That's Larry brain I have two
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: voices in my head, and one is still like, you're
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: in a fucking cult, you were, brainwasher. It's gonna take.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And at this point is a Bella and Felicia
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: are living together and they're both still completely devoted to Larry.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: But then that interview happens, and that's when Felicia's lawyers
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: get involved and are like, nah, you need to separate
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: yourself from this, and it gets like the deeper they
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: get into Felicia's story, the documentary gets almost kind of heartwarming.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: There are some very sweet moments where this family like
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: finally sort of reconcile because it's not just that Larry
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: Ray fucked their lives up. It fucked this whole family.
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: Us that those parents lost their kids for a decade.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I think their kids, Felicia, I think at
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: this point in history, I think said had not seen
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: Santos for like six years and hadn't seen her parents
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: for even longer. And there's a scene where like she
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: drives to her parents' house and sees them go in,
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, just go in, just go in,
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: and she doesn't.
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: She can't.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: Oh so sad, but eventually she does. She calls her mom,
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: they reconcile, and eventually that whole family unit kind of
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: comes back.
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: Well, when the mom and Felicia go visit Eulita, Eulita
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: won't come to the door, and it's not because she doesn't.
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: She's just like, I don't know if she's still under
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: Larry's spell. I don't know if my parents are actually
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: the horrible people that Larry convinced me. Like, she's like,
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: I just don't know, and the only thing I can
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: do is just talk to my lawyer and be like,
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: get away from me. Yeah, it's yeah, but they do.
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: There's a nice picnic scene at the end where.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: They're all, yeah, the last episode is a lot of that.
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: The last episode is just the aftermath for Felicia and Isabella.
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: And I don't know where Isabel. I mean Isabella. She's
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: not in prison, but.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: She's in a bad way. But they do eventually say
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: at the end, she did eventually testify against Larry and
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: admit that what she did was a problem, and I
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: think she apologized, which yeah, and.
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: I feel for her though too, because she's also like.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and not just that, I think she had the
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: roughest upbringing. It seems like too, like she was especially
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: all of these kids were just so susceptible, like just
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: naturally susceptible to what this guy was peddling. And it's
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: so sad that it worked for as long as it did.
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: And also Sarah Lawrence College came out and was like,
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: we heard about this, but we did a little bit
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: of investigating and nothing seemed weird to us. But now
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: we regret not doing like it was like this weird,
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: like like pr quote at the end that like we
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: we just didn't know. But it's like a full blown
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: adult was living on camp it Like yeah.
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: I do, I kind of understand, Like what else are
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: they gonna do?
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: Like I mean, yeah, I get it. It's just like fuck, yeah, one.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: Person would have just said something.
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: Some thing right then maybe the I mean Santos looks
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: legit haunted, like you see him as an adult now,
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: and all of them, like Dan wrote, a book about
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: He wrote a memoir about this, and he he said
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: that it was so nice to talk to Santos and
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: be like, oh, I wasn't a like, it was nice
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: to see him and reconnect and be like, oh fuck,
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: we both agree how fucked up it was. But Dan
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: seems to have like kind of made his way right,
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: and the other three like, uh Ulitzia is going to Columbia,
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: I think, and she's made she wants to be an artist.
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: And Santos is the only one that just just seems.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got a job, he's living with his parents, haunted.
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah that it's just like so just like I get
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: Sarah Lawrence's side, but like I'm like, if just one
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: person would have given a little bit more of a fuck.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's a heavy documentary, but I
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: think it's worth watching. It's I do too, like if
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: nothing else, to build up your empathy for people in
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: situations like this, because it's never as simple as well,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: why didn't you just leave?
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: Like it's never that simply.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: Not everyone's built like me and Kim like we would
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: have obviously just left.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: We're geniuses.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we are so fucking together mentally, like we got
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: it fucking going on upstairs.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but not everyone together.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, flawless lives.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: Yes, awesome, But also, you know what, I feel like
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: everybody has a thing that their brain could be said.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean, like everybody has a breaking
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: point or everybody has oh yeah yeah, even geniuses like us.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: Even geniuses like us.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: I don't know if the stude genius, but you know
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: what I mean.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: The scariest part is that even me and Kim could
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: fall for something like this, not specifically this, I would
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: have told Larry Ray to fuck off.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: Like, Also, Larry Ray was super creepy, Like yeah he was.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: He wasn't like I expected him to be like a charismatic,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: good looking guy. He was like kind of a mean guy.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: It's like I knew this guy. Like it was just
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: like what, Yeah, you had like.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: A cab driver's voice.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you look like a Midwestern dad. Like you just
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: look like a dad like in the eighties, you know,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: like it was the boy. Yeah. I probably will watch
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: The Peacock just because I Claudia Is. I googled her
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: a little bit and it was just like she lives
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: a quiet life. She does not want to be associated
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: with it she wants to be.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and who can blame her? Like I hope, you know,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: I hope she's getting the help she needs. I hope
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: she's gotten the help she needs. But yeah, no one man,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: I almost teared up.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah me too.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: Like, as as important as it is for people in
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: situations like this to be able to tell their story,
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: it's also fine if Claudia doesn't want to tell hers
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: right now, or if anyone doesn't want to, like, that's
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: fine too, Like we're not entitled to know Claudia's feelings
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: on this.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, both can exist, right, Like someone can want to
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: share and someone doesn't have, Like it's none of our.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think I guess the moral of this
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: is just be on your toes when there's former Cia
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: in your midst You never know what those motherfuckers are up.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: To or if you see something, say something you know.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, like those two like Raven and Max were
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: both like we just got out of there, but now
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: we look back and we're like I should have maybe,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: and that not that I'm not like blaming them by
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: any stretch of the mind. There is exactly one person
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: to be blamed in this entire scenario. But but just like,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: there's so many times that we'll see friends that are
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: in like questionable situations and it's like, oh, well, it's
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: not my lane or it's none of my business, and
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: sometimes it doesn't matter if it's not your business. Yeah,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: it's a fine line. I guess I don't know.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think that's our episode, right.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we were you trying to look for like a
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: nice bow. I think this there's.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: There's no, there's no, but I mean there are like you.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: I could argue that Felicia and Santos and elitesa constitute
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: kind of a happy ending, but Dan, yeah, yeah, but
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: there's not really like the happy ending to this would
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: be if like none of it happened. Like happy is
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: a weird way to put it. But at least most
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: of the involved parties have extricated themselves from the situation
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: and are rebuilding their lives. And Larry Ray will be
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: in prison forever.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: Forever, and I hope not a cushy prison. I hope
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: like a bad prison.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: Oh he's in New York. He's probably in Rikers Island, right, nice, Okay, Yeah,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: that would be ideal.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and they don't criminals don't do so well with
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: sex traffickers and pedophiles and rapists. Like criminals have a code,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: they don't, they don't. Those guys don't do well in prison.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just ask Jeffrey Epstein, who definitely was murdered in prison.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely was murdered in prison. I thought you were
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: going to be start and say definitely killed himself in
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: like I thought you were gonna be sarcastic, and then.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, he fucking was murdered.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: There's no way that guy wasn't murdered.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: Anyone who doesn't buy that is the dumbest person I've
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: ever met.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: The peer, absolute dumbest. My got How fucking hard do
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: you trust the government that you think Jeffrey Epstein killed himself?
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: Shut up?
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: That though, by the way, makes me kind of debunk
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: your your conspiracy theory. If he really is former intelligence
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: Larry not Epstein, maybe will they kill him too.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. Larry Ray and Jeffrey Epstein
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: are two very different animals.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: Oh, very very different animals. I'm just saying Larry probably
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: knows some things that some people may not want him
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: to know. But Epstein had friends in higher places. Than
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: you and I can even imagine, you know. Yeah, all right,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: well all right.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: Well, hey Kim, thanks for doing this. I appreciate it.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: Hey Adam, thanks for having me. I always love being here.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: Do you have anything to play before we get out
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: of here?
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: It feels weird to plug something after, Like, well, I
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: have a comedy show tomorrow night, but yeah, just follow
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: me on all the socials kym k r A L. Yeah, well,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: I do have a comedy show the Davis Airs on
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: the eighth, but I'm unclear where it is because I
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: haven't looked yet. I've been tagged in a bunch of posts.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: I'm like, all right, that's tomorrow, but I'll have it
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: up on all my socials and go to you know,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: kym kr al.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: I am doing Jeff's Mint on Cards show March tenth
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: this Friday. Oh, you'll be there in Burbank, so.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: I might try and if I'm not if I'm not working,
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: I was gonna try and pop.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: In, come pop in.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, don't tell Jeff. I was gonna surprise him.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: It'll be my second time doing comedy since COVID, first
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: time since having surgery on my face. So guess what
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: my jokes are mostly going to be about and yeah,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: come out and see that, and Olivia will be back.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: We me and Olivia went to alien Con over the weekend,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: and this week's episode was going to be about that,
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: but then a scheduling thing happened, so we will we
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: will let you know how alien Con went very soon,
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: and uh, I think that's it. We should get out
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: of here, all right, Kim.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: Thanks everybody thinks Kim, say goodbye, Goodbye Adam, goodbye everybody. Bye.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, goodbye everybody. We love you.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: Bye people,