Latest / Bourbon & Rum / Politics Turns Violent: Charlie Kirk’s Assassination

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Politics Turns Violent: Charlie Kirk’s Assassination · Bourbon & Rum

0:08
Welcome to another episode of Bourbon and Rum.
0:11
This is a podcast of two brothers from opposite ends of
0:15
the spectrum. My name's Kent, I'm a rum
0:22
drinker, and I'm from the left side of the aisle.
0:24
And I'm Kyle. I, like bourbon, tend to be a
0:26
little more conservative. Join us as we explore this
0:32
experiment. Can two brothers from different
0:35
sides of the political spectrum have a civil conversation and
0:39
celebrate our differences? What are you drinking?
0:54
Well, I am just drinking my standard EH Taylor, which I can
0:58
find now. I think I drank this the other
1:00
day. It's I can find it all the time
1:03
now. I I was going to, you know, I
1:05
was going to drink rum. I was on a work trip overseas
1:12
this week and they didn't have any good bourbon rice at but
1:16
they had this rum. I drank this Ronza Coppa XO rum.
1:22
I tried to find the liquor store.
1:23
It's like, man, I would give up every bottle of bourbon I had
1:25
for that stuff. It it was awesome.
1:27
But I wound up buying a bottle because somebody was like, well,
1:30
this is kind of like it. And it's like, well, it's not.
1:32
So I'm back to bourbon, right? Well cool, I am drinking rum.
1:36
I've had the opportunity to. Usually I drink cheap rum
1:38
because I live in a small town and I don't have the access to
1:41
the fru fru stuff like like Kyle does, but I've been in a couple
1:46
of major cities and I've been loading up the car.
1:49
This is a bottle of Barcelo Imperial.
1:53
This is a Dominican rum made in Dominican Republic.
1:56
So if you've tracked with us, that's a Spanish style rum and
2:00
it tends to be fairly light and smooth.
2:03
And this one is really light and smooth, just probably not as
2:08
good as that Exo Zakopa that you had, but it's pretty good.
2:12
And I'm drinking actually a cocktail.
2:15
There is a teaspoon full of falernum syrup in this, which
2:19
kind of, it's like simple syrup with ginger and a bunch of herbs
2:25
and it it's kind of like drinking an old fashioned nice.
2:28
Today there's a third glass at our table and we'd like to
2:33
introduce a guest today. We've got our brother-in-law,
2:37
Kurt and Kurt, what are you? What are you drinking today?
2:40
Well hey, thanks for having me on guys.
2:43
I'm going to go a little more pedestrian.
2:47
I am in Michigan and I'm going to tout some of their local
2:50
crafted beers. I have an Oberon which is a
2:54
summer wheat ale out of Bells Brewery and Comstock.
2:58
Most people around here are pretty familiar with it and it's
3:01
a limited time deal still. Still could find it in the store
3:05
for the next couple weeks and then if things get really
3:09
serious I've got some too Hearted Ale so thanks for.
3:12
Having me on. You know, we got to talk and
3:20
we've been talking for a while about we'll just guess in
3:24
general and we talked to Kurt quite a bit and we thought, and
3:29
this would be a good fit. And then, you know, as we get
3:33
into the topic this week, I think I think it's helpful to
3:37
bring him into the picture 'cause he, you know, can't, you
3:41
know, you know, the left hand of the spectrum, I tend to be the
3:44
right. You know, we, we, we kind of
3:46
bounce around a bit, but I think Kurt is a little more of an
3:50
independent. He's kind of in the middle and.
3:52
Kind of the wild card. Based on the events this week, I
3:56
think we wanted to kind of dig into that a little bit, dig into
4:00
the the spectrum of beliefs and how we can all coexist without
4:04
this crazy violence that we saw this week.
4:07
Yeah, agree. We, I think most of us, our
4:12
thoughts and our media share have been really, really fixated
4:18
on the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
4:20
It honestly, it feels like 1968, you know, I, I think that's the
4:25
thing that comes to my mind. It just, it's a worrisome time.
4:30
Well, Kurt, with, with you as a guest, maybe give us your tape.
4:34
What did you, how did you learn about this?
4:36
What were your initial thoughts? What have your thoughts been as
4:39
you've kind of processed about this assassination?
4:42
Well, thanks for giving me the floor early.
4:44
I, I'll try not to dominate the conversation because I'm, I'm,
4:48
I'm not as informed as you guys. I'm certain as far as where I
4:53
come from, I think Kyle's, you know, it's fair to say I'm
4:56
probably in between you guys been a libertarian most of my
5:01
life. So I'm not exactly sure where I
5:04
stand. And, you know, it's probably,
5:06
you know, a leading a little more right these days.
5:09
But, but still, I, I, I try to try to keep an open mind.
5:14
You know, I have 3 kids and everybody's got a little bit
5:17
different views and my wife has a little bit different views.
5:21
I am a Christian. So I try to look at that through
5:26
that lens as well. And so I try to just just kind
5:29
of judge the political things of the day through all those
5:33
different lenses without getting bogged down into Twitter and a
5:40
lot of you know what the onslaught of of media.
5:43
So I was concerned like everybody else was, because it
5:49
seems like there's a justification in in violence
5:57
that I haven't I haven't seen manifested as much until last
6:02
few years. Yeah, that we have had times
6:04
when that was definitely more prevalent.
6:07
But I'm concerned that we're on a precipice of even more of that
6:13
because I don't I don't see the temperature.
6:16
The temperature was rising and without without going on too
6:22
long, I would say the thing that really moved me to contact you
6:26
guys was Bernie Sanders address to the country in response to
6:33
this. And it was ahead of a lot of the
6:37
rhetoric that could have been very damaging.
6:39
And I think he cut a lot of it off and I really give him a ton
6:42
of credit for that. And I hate to say I'm shocked a
6:47
little bit by how how balanced it was, but it was it was
6:52
excellent and it it put the blame where it belonged and
6:57
covered both sides of the spectrum.
6:59
You know, everything's political with these guys.
7:01
But so, you know, like he, he thought about what he was going
7:05
to say and what he might be doing in the next few years and
7:08
all that stuff, but that your choice of words matters and his
7:11
choice of. Words.
7:12
I, I, I couldn't disagree with a thing and I thought it was one
7:17
of the most valuable things that I've, that I've seen a public
7:20
figure do to manage the temperature lately.
7:25
And as much as I tend to agree with certain policy
7:29
prescriptions of our current president, mostly the foreign
7:33
policy stuff, you know, not, not a, not a fan of everything he
7:37
does, but I do think his statements, although the words
7:43
mattered, his actions have not lowered the temperature.
7:48
His, his, his rhetoric in the past has contributed to the
7:53
temperature rising and he sets the tone.
7:56
And so those would be my two big takeaways is that it was a
8:01
tragic event. I'm worried, you know, about
8:04
where we're at. But our political leaders
8:06
matter. And I saw a contrast of two of
8:09
them a few days ago. And it was very interesting to
8:12
me. And, and I guess I was
8:15
optimistic and pessimistic at the same time.
8:18
And I thought this was a great opportunity to hear what you
8:21
guys had to say. Kyle, what about you?
8:24
No, I agree. I, I watched Bernie's response
8:27
to, you know, they essentially talked about, hey, Charlie was a
8:34
really good communicator and he's talking about his faith and
8:36
he's talking about his beliefs. And he's like, you know, I, I
8:39
disagree with him on much of what he says, but, well, I mean,
8:45
he's just saying, you know, I, I, he said that, you know, I
8:47
believe I, I disagree with about everything he says, but like,
8:51
he's got a right to say it. And you know, this and, you
8:55
know, he kind of cited some of the other political violence
8:57
that's happened over the last couple of years.
8:59
And, you know, just this idea that, you know, you can just go
9:05
out and kill somebody that doesn't like your views.
9:08
I what's crazy to me is the, you, you hear some of these
9:12
reactions and you know, some of the stuff on social media and
9:17
people are like, oh, you know, you deserve this and blah, blah,
9:20
blah. One thing I found really just an
9:24
odd thing is, you know, I heard multiple people say like, you
9:29
know, he's a fascist. People throw around this term
9:31
fascist. Well, you're a fascist and it's
9:33
like shooting somebody to silence them for their beliefs.
9:39
I don't know that there's a more fascist action than that.
9:42
I completely agree. Yeah, yeah.
9:45
So for me, I'm going to admit that I did not have a great
9:51
perception of Charlie Kirk before this happened.
9:54
And candidly, as more has come out about him, it's almost made
10:00
me reconsider or think that I ought to be more.
10:06
I would have taken a deeper look.
10:08
I will say categorically what I said the, the minute it, that it
10:14
happened. And I thought this was him, you
10:15
know, not that anybody follows me on Facebook, but I thought it
10:19
was really important to say unequivocally, there's no place
10:22
for political violence in our country.
10:24
It, it can't happen. But I wasn't a fan of him per
10:28
SE. And I think in hindsight, I'm
10:32
realizing that my media, and by that I mean the the slice of the
10:38
universe that comes to me, definitely cherry pick some of
10:42
the more inflammatory things that he'd said.
10:45
And so that colored my opinion for him again.
10:48
But immediately when you see or hear of this, it's like, wow,
10:51
this is in a different realm, right?
10:54
Like there's disagreeing about policy and that's people that I
10:57
really don't like and I don't like what they say.
11:00
But like we're not in the, the, the shoot people kind of thing.
11:04
I guess I would, I, I find it a little bit interesting.
11:08
I don't want to go on a tangent yet, but I'll start.
11:11
Ordinarily, and it happens often enough, that often enough that
11:15
we have ordinarilys for this, when somebody shoots up a school
11:20
or assassinated a politician in Minnesota in June, that people
11:27
kind of discount things and say, well, that person was crazy,
11:30
right? Like it was all about mental
11:32
illness and so forth. That's exactly what I see with
11:37
this person so far. And yet at least my narrow slice
11:43
of things seems to be, well, people are taking this really
11:46
seriously, like this is a legitimate assassination.
11:51
And I I just didn't get that read when the legislator in
11:55
Minnesota was shot. Maybe I'm I'm I'm interested in
11:58
your takes on that. Is it that this is just that
12:01
high profile profile a leader? Yeah, I don't see anybody.
12:06
Sensible about the person. Well, but I think the people
12:10
that I guess I'm trying to understand your perspective.
12:13
I mean, yeah, I I've seen a lot on social media about people.
12:17
Well, he got what he deserved and all this nonsense.
12:19
I did not see that when a with some of the other politicians
12:23
that it like some of these other folks I haven't seen like people
12:25
jumping out there like, oh, well, that that person got what
12:29
they deserved. Yeah.
12:30
I just feel like there was. I mean, his social media,
12:33
Charlie's social media presence was so ubiquitous that even if
12:37
your feed is another side of the spectrum, you're probably seeing
12:43
him popping your feet all the time and you've got a.
12:46
Yeah. First of all, man, I just got to
12:49
say this. I don't deny that there were
12:53
probably some people who were blase about this, but I mean,
12:59
really, you think that's characteristic of this?
13:03
That just kind of shocks me. Did you describe that as?
13:06
Characteristic of that. Yes, I'm.
13:09
Afraid so. My kids have been crying because
13:13
the stuff they say, I mean, it's all over.
13:15
And if I may, I want to amplify what Kyle said, which is the
13:20
right, you know, for all that, for all their ills, they don't
13:23
celebrate things like that as much as the left does there.
13:28
There seems to be at at the very least a an allowing allowment of
13:35
it that you know it. It's not condemned.
13:39
And I just I got a call that bullshit.
13:43
Are are there people? Of course there are, but I'm
13:48
just not going to be. I am a card carrying liberal and
13:52
I'm not going to be painted like I'm soft on on assassinations.
13:58
Like that just doesn't make any sense.
14:00
No, I'm not saying that you are. I'm just and.
14:04
You know, hey. Bernie Sanders, you're not going
14:06
to find a more liberal guy. And like his response was
14:10
inspiring. I'm just saying this individual
14:14
was a a a figure that people either loved him immensely or
14:19
they despised him. And there's a lot of negative
14:24
stuff out there, but that may be because there is a bunch on both
14:29
sides of this. I think that's an excellent
14:32
point, is the polarization, like, and, and everybody's
14:36
responsible because it's what sells, you know, whether it's
14:41
clicks or whatever, Like the, you know, the political
14:44
discourse has coarsened and gotten into 146 characters, you
14:51
know, because that's about everybody, everybody's attention
14:54
span. And so in order for you to be
14:59
impactful at all, you have to be polarizing.
15:03
And so, yeah, you know, like he, he was effective, but because of
15:09
the environment, you know, he he created strong enemies as well
15:13
as strong allies. Well, I hear you on that.
15:15
And in so far as this is a measure of polarization, no
15:19
disagreement. I guess I'm saying that I, I
15:23
really reject the notion that Democrats are more likely to be
15:27
cool with assassination than Republicans.
15:30
I think the reason that you've seen what you've seen, Kyle,
15:34
which I, I again, I believe it's out there.
15:36
I will tell you that all my liberal friends, when we talked,
15:38
we're not like, oh, that was great that you're seeing.
15:41
That is probably more a barometer of his celebrity and
15:48
widespread knowledge. I, I, I just can't sign on that
15:53
Democrats are more prone to being OK with political
15:57
violence. Yeah, I and I don't.
15:59
I don't know that I would, you know, I'm sure.
16:03
Let me. I don't know.
16:05
There's a way this to prove that one way or the other.
16:07
I guess all I was going down the path of was less about right
16:12
versus left, but like the whole temperature thing.
16:16
Like how do you get people to stop hating each other to to the
16:22
point where they can talk if I don't know it's like every like
16:26
the two groups are living in two separate universes.
16:28
Agree with that. Again, let me just state I I'm,
16:31
I'm not trying to, I, I don't disagree with that.
16:34
I'm just saying, I bet it wouldn't take me more than 30
16:38
seconds of Googling to find people that were making jokes
16:41
and memes about Nancy Pelosi's husband when he got hit in the
16:45
head with the hammer. I I don't think that that would
16:48
be that easy. My, my sense is the volume of
16:53
acceptance was different on those two things again, And I'm
16:58
not going to claim to be, you know, a person who tracks social
17:03
media all the time, but that certainly doesn't seem to be
17:06
what my slice is. You know of the universe is
17:12
telling me, but I could be wrong.
17:14
Following the October 26th or October 22 hammer attack on Paul
17:19
Pelosi, a wave of jokes, memes and conspiracy theories spread
17:23
online and were amplified by some right wing political
17:26
figures and media outlets. Donald Trump sarcastically asked
17:31
the crowd in California. How's her husband doing, by the
17:34
way? Anybody know?
17:36
All right, I, I, I condemn that. I think that and you know, I
17:41
think that's hopefully we'll get to that too.
17:44
You know that. You know he is the as not just
17:49
the commander but as the head of state should be a culture leader
17:53
and isn't isn't doing a phenomenal job there for the
17:59
other 50% that didn't vote for him.
18:02
Yeah, don't mean to to spiral down on this.
18:05
I just, I think the the obnoxious, ugly underbelly that
18:10
you're seeing I think is more a function of his visibility and
18:15
celebrity than the fact that he happened to be on the right.
18:18
I could be wrong, but that's what he was like.
18:20
How much of the ugliness that we see is also based on what I
18:29
would characterize as the separate universe that you, you,
18:32
you live in. You know how much, How much is
18:35
that? You know it.
18:37
Certainly could be. Again, I live in a pretty
18:39
liberal universe and I don't know anybody who was like
18:42
blowing noisemakers. People were well and horrified.
18:45
You're, you're in I, I, I would say that the left has created a
18:52
coalition of a lot of, of interesting bedfellows since
18:56
2020, since 2008. And you're in an enclave of
19:02
highly educated, pretty reasonable people.
19:05
Good for you. An 18 year old is not capable of
19:10
that same discernment to, to know, you know, that certain
19:16
things should be condemned. Just, you know, even if somebody
19:20
that you follow on Twitter agrees with it.
19:22
Yeah. So, you know, I think you're
19:25
right. I, I, I'm glad that your, your
19:28
coterie is all, you know, in agreement that this is, you
19:34
know, unacceptable. I think I, Kyle, and I would
19:39
probably say the same about, you know, folks that we tend to
19:44
associate with. You know, if somebody is
19:46
somebody, some idiot part of your, your party, if you will,
19:52
you know, you got to live with them a little bit.
19:54
But I, I do see a little bit more variability in the
20:01
coalition you guys are trying to put together.
20:04
Sometimes I say you guys, I probably shouldn't do that
20:06
because I agree with certain things, but it's a little bit
20:10
more of a mixed bag sometimes and it makes for interesting
20:13
challenges. You know, great opportunities I.
20:18
Right. And, you know, we live in a
20:20
pretty conservative place, I'll I'll say.
20:23
But like my daughter this week, she's at school and this whole
20:29
thing came up and and she's pretty serious about her faith.
20:31
And one of her friends, she's talking to one of her friends
20:36
about it. And the friend was like, well,
20:38
you know, I heard he's I heard he's racist.
20:40
So, you know, he probably deserved it, you know, and it's
20:44
like, OK, where does that kid one, where is here the that the
20:51
guy is racist? Well, I mean, there's all kinds
20:54
of stuff all over social media that says, you know, he's, he's
20:58
fascist and racist and you pick the label.
21:02
At Hominem. And I and they're like, I mean,
21:06
I know the kids parents that she's talking about.
21:08
They're nice folks. They probably are thinking about
21:13
this the same way we are. I guess I'm just saying like the
21:17
level of one, there's a, there's a level of hatred out there, but
21:21
there's a, there's also this, you know, you can say something
21:26
about somebody and it doesn't have to be true, but it'll
21:30
spread like wildfire. And in your own little circle,
21:34
the thing can get ramped up and turned into a fever pitch.
21:38
And if you really went back and really go, what, what did the
21:40
guy say that was racist? I mean, you know.
21:44
May never even have have existed.
21:46
It's some all. I have.
21:47
All I have to do is somebody has to say it and the next thing you
21:50
know, that's part of The Who you are and.
21:54
And it starts affecting people on a, on a, especially young
21:57
people, it can influence them, even though there's little basis
22:02
in truth for it. And, and, and that is not left
22:05
or right. It is just the, the there,
22:09
there's so much information out there.
22:11
Kids are exposed to a bunch of BS and don't know how to filter
22:18
it. And they're also, you know,
22:22
they're emotional beings, especially, you know, at younger
22:25
age. And some of the some of the
22:27
trigger words and things out there are, are very effective in
22:32
scaring these kids or motivating them or where.
22:36
And I, I think that's where at like we're, we're turning into a
22:39
society that is motivated by emotions and hearsay and not
22:47
facts and, and civil discourse, which was kind of the whole.
22:52
Point of your. Podcast and which was the whole
22:54
point of Bernie's statement. And so I think it's super
22:58
crucial to, you know, like talk about that you don't like either
23:04
try to get back to that or like, where did we go wrong?
23:07
Can we get back to it? I agree, Kurt, I think it's a
23:11
well set and again, I just want to make sure that you're that
23:14
everybody's clear that I'm not sticking up for people that have
23:17
said. No.
23:19
No questions, no question. We we nobody thinks.
23:22
That, but it's but it is not unique to the left.
23:27
Your your comment about the coalition is an interesting one.
23:29
If we got time, that would be an interesting 1 to pursue.
23:32
But I guess I will say you so stipulated right.
23:37
We live in this. We all live in bubbles.
23:38
We we've got this thing, our kids are getting these, you
23:41
know, TikTok, by the way, which is the agency of the Chinese
23:45
government and, and the devil in tandem the but yeah, so we get
23:51
these. So, so how do we fix it?
23:54
And I'm going to, I'm going to throw a posit on the table that
23:58
if I look at this and as a liberal and say, yeah, you guys
24:02
have got to work on this on your side, then then we've already
24:07
lost the, the, the best way I can work on this is to work on
24:11
myself, starting with me and to control and to source my
24:17
information. Well, I think that the
24:19
responsibility starts with ourselves.
24:22
And I think if you asked 100 people, you'd probably get at
24:26
least a opening salvo from 80 of them.
24:29
Like, well, those sobs have got to change.
24:32
Yeah, it's it's a lot of. So here in Texas, a former
24:41
English teacher is just threw his name in the hat to run in a
24:45
primary against the other Democrat in the Texas primary,
24:49
this guy named James Talarico. I've.
24:52
Seen him seen. Him.
24:53
Yeah, he was on Rogan. He's getting a lot of national
24:56
popularities, well educated guy, got a Harvard degree and he's,
25:01
he's actually in seminary right now and he's a, he's a Liberal
25:06
Democrat. I'm just, I just say that like,
25:09
I don't necessarily like I heard his whole thing on on Rogan and
25:15
I don't necessarily, you know, agree with everything he says
25:18
something I, I certainly vehemently disagree, but very
25:21
thoughtful guy. He's running on a couple things,
25:25
but one of one of his contentions, and I've heard it
25:28
from others on coincidentally on the right now.
25:32
It's interesting because his Talarico's take, he attributes
25:37
it to billionaires on the right. I hear it a lot because they
25:40
attributes it to, you know, the ruling class.
25:44
But whoever you attribute to, both sides have said this.
25:46
He's like they, in his case, the billionaires and others, they
25:49
say it's the ruling class. They want us to constantly be
25:55
fighting against each other. They want us to identify by
25:58
race, by gender, by whatever they want all this strife
26:04
because it benefits them. And I, I think there's something
26:10
there. But then I also wonder, like, is
26:13
this A to your point, Ken, if it's a more inward thing, is
26:18
everything like we got to pin it on somebody else?
26:21
Right actually pretty amazing message would be take back your
26:26
local community, make the governor's you know, answer to
26:32
the governed take back this country and like be involved in
26:36
local politics, be involved in your local school, be involved
26:40
in. All the way run for office.
26:44
Right. Well, you.
26:46
Know I I tend to agree with Kemp that, you know, it is a should
26:49
be more of a more grass roots and especially with kids and
26:52
especially with managing social media, you know, managing their
26:57
information and stuff like that. But it, it's, it's more than
27:00
that. It, it's, yeah, blame it on
27:02
everybody else. And then you're then you're free
27:05
to, you know, basically be lazy and not take part in making your
27:10
community better, your government better.
27:12
And because there's always somebody beating you down.
27:15
And, you know, if we could just get rid of those bums, it'll all
27:19
be good. Well, you're the bums, you know,
27:21
like you're the bums who aren't doing anything.
27:23
When I was years ago, I was in, I was a pastor and one of my
27:28
favorite things to say when issues would come up around,
27:35
around faith and government, you know, and, and, and people would
27:39
talk about submit yourself to those in authority.
27:43
You know, there's, there's some really interesting passage,
27:46
especially in the New Testament about the relationship with the
27:49
government. But it, it seemed to surprise
27:52
people when I would say, remember, we live in a
27:55
representative democracy. You Caesar is you right Caesar
28:01
is not some nameless force that you have no control over it.
28:06
Admittedly, my vote alone doesn't fix things, but in this
28:09
country we got to quit blaming they to to your point about, you
28:16
know, that they want to see us fight.
28:19
Like doesn't matter who your they is.
28:22
You ask 8 people and you get 8 different definitions of they.
28:25
It's the billionaires, it's the ruling class, it's the
28:27
professional politicians, it's the Republicans, it's the
28:30
Democrats or whatever. But if if you, if there's a they
28:34
in your in your description, you you, you probably need to take a
28:39
step back. Amen.
28:42
And both sides are very much in the finger pointing game right
28:46
now because neither have a coherent message.
28:52
You know, I, I think the right has a little better coherency
28:57
right now is like getting everybody in line together to to
29:00
try to move an agenda forward. For what that's worth.
29:04
The left has always been very good at that in the last couple
29:07
decades, but that's different than having a, a, a true
29:11
message. So there is a fair amount of
29:14
finger pointing on both sides. And it sucks because these
29:21
impressionable young people who don't understand the nuances of
29:28
the political battle think that they're the enemies and that
29:33
they're going to that they're going to ruin our way of life.
29:37
And that leads to things like this.
29:40
I've got a friend lowercase F with quotation marks around it
29:45
on Facebook who I think you're spot on with this, Kurt.
29:51
And and this is an example. And again, I I'm not painting
29:54
this is all Republicans by any means, but this is the kind of
29:57
thing that you see, you know, minutes, not hours, minutes
30:02
after the news of Kirk's assassination was made public.
30:07
The I think the opening line of his screed on Facebook was,
30:12
well, the Democrats have finally done it.
30:15
And it went on to this whole thing.
30:17
And and I thought, you know, I do, I worry a lot about the
30:23
after effects of this and how does this play out?
30:25
And I'm going to tell you and and Kurt, you hidden it on this
30:29
that I mean, I think that's exactly how Trump described it,
30:33
right? The Democrats killed him.
30:35
And if that's the way that we go, you're sure not going to get
30:39
to any of that introspection. How do we make things better?
30:42
How do we listen to people on the other side?
30:45
And I don't think it was a Republican that killed Melissa
30:48
Hortman in Minnesota. I don't think, I don't think it
30:51
was. I actually think he was an
30:52
independent or Democrat. But like anybody who's trying to
30:55
hang this on the Democrats killed Charlie Kirk.
30:58
I like we're not off to a good start if that's the way we're
31:02
going to. Lead No, we're not I I'm not
31:04
trying to, by the way, I I. Didn't get that from you?
31:08
No. Fair enough.
31:09
I, I, I will say I've drifted more right because of the
31:14
emotionalism of what, what I, I guess what I'll call the left,
31:19
you know, Bill Maher, for example, and I, I, I think that
31:24
guy, he, he's, he's extremely intelligent and I disagree with
31:30
a ton of things he says, but it is relevant to something like
31:34
this because he's a real big believer in free speech and
31:39
also, you know, classical liberalism And, you know, he's,
31:44
he said pretty vociferously, like I, I, I'm right where I am
31:50
and the left moved out from under my feet.
31:52
And so I've seen that a little bit now.
31:55
The right, I, I would say the light, the right has moved a
31:59
little more left lately, which is why I find myself migrating
32:05
slightly that way because I think they're trying to attract
32:09
people who are more socially liberal.
32:11
You might disagree. Fair enough.
32:15
I don't think the Christian Conservative Coalition is super
32:19
strong, let's put it that way. I don't think the NRA is as
32:23
strong as it used to be. I, I think a lot of those heavy
32:28
hitters have been marginalized and we're, we're reaching out.
32:33
I say we, I, I, I keep, I've said that twice now.
32:36
And I'm, I'm not trying to like be deceitful, but I, I, I do
32:41
think that I do have more concerns on the left, but I'm
32:44
not going to say it's of anything.
32:45
I am really interested in seeing the right put together Trump
32:53
while he's in power. I would really like him to lead
32:57
the charge and he's going to have to change a lot of things
32:59
about his personality and leadership style.
33:02
But he could, because he's a pragmatist and he's really old,
33:07
and boy, wouldn't that be a really cool second, third,
33:11
fourth act for him to like, try to heal some wounds?
33:14
When you said third or fourth act, I swear I I thought you
33:17
were going to say third or fourth term, but I was going to
33:19
throw up a little bit, pal, what are you thinking?
33:24
Well, I just was fact checking you a little bit, Kent.
33:27
He, I I got an inventory of Trump statements on the Kirk
33:31
assassination. You're not completely off.
33:34
He said radical left lunatics are responsible for the kind of
33:38
environment that led to Kirk's killing.
33:42
He said that it's a dark moment for America.
33:44
Yeah, I think the I don't know. I I, I was just thinking about
33:50
like, where does this go from here?
33:52
I hope, you know, more people could have dialogue like us.
33:57
I feel like, you know, the could people talk, but they're not The
34:02
downside is they're not because people are addicted to the short
34:07
messages they can lob online with no identity.
34:11
They don't have to put their face out there on the right or
34:14
the left. You can throw all kinds of
34:16
bombshells at each other. And you know, if those people
34:20
that behind these anonymous profiles on all these social
34:24
media sites actually sat in a room together and have a
34:27
dialogue and be like, you know, you say some outlandish crap and
34:31
have to defend it in person looking at somebody else in the
34:34
eye, it'd be a way different conversation.
34:36
But like, how do we get to that? I mean, is the train too far
34:42
past the station to get back to that point?
34:44
And then it's, you know, we talked about, I don't know,
34:47
people talk about, OK, well, and then if people aren't going to
34:51
be civil, OK, is this going to go down a worse path?
34:54
And then it's going to be a civil war.
34:56
And then it's like, OK, well, and we've talked about this
34:58
before, like, well, what's the civil war?
35:00
What's the dividing line? And I think the problem is
35:03
there's no dividing line. It's going to be neighbor
35:04
against neighbor, house against house.
35:06
It's people, you know, do we just devolve into a place where
35:10
people spin each other up so much online and then you just
35:15
have like the, the number of random acts of violence just
35:18
start spiraling out of control? I don't, I mean, I'm not trying
35:21
to sound doom and gloom, but like what happens next.
35:25
So this is like a complete curveball, but I think it's
35:29
related. So I think one of the things
35:32
that we need is more visibility and surfacing to the fact that
35:37
so much of this is completely manipulated.
35:40
So in a completely different context, I was watching a
35:43
YouTube channel from a young kid yesterday and it's kind of a
35:49
just a goofy channel. He likes to do kind of like
35:51
stunts and practical stuff. And so his stunt was he wanted
35:57
to sneak into fancy car dealerships and private jet
36:02
dealers. And you know, he he was going to
36:04
try to pass himself off as a billionaire.
36:08
So comical, right? The part that blew my mind was
36:11
his preparation steps for this. First, he purchased an Instagram
36:18
account with a million followers.
36:20
Let that sink in for a minute. You can do.
36:22
That for two grand and then and then he went and spent like it
36:31
was some number of money. Maybe it was another 2 grand.
36:34
He had a post and he wanted 10,000 likes on that post and he
36:39
bought 10,000 likes and it showed him watching the screen
36:44
and the likes are spinning on the thing that he bought.
36:46
Wow. If this kid is 22 years old and
36:50
his YouTube profession is sneaking into country clubs.
36:54
If that kid can figure that out for two grand to pop.
36:58
Yeah. Man, think about wow, think
37:02
about what we're up against here.
37:03
Well, and the. Government do this of.
37:07
Course, we're going to get a lot of likes on this episode.
37:09
I'm just going to put that out there.
37:12
Well, I mean the bot thing. You know, sock puppets, all that
37:17
stuff like that's been around for damn near a decade.
37:21
And you know, like people still don't quite get it when they,
37:26
when they're looking at social media, They still that they're
37:30
still deceived, mostly because the feed they're getting is
37:35
amplifying their own opinion, right?
37:38
So what we've got obviously like 3 or 4 different social things
37:41
that we're, we're all aware of. You know, it's the, you know it,
37:46
it's the feed is tailored to you and a lot of anonymous people
37:53
that and, and, and you're going to, you're going to have a, a
37:58
bias, affirmation bias or the attribution bias.
38:03
So you're, you're, you're going to tend to cherry pick
38:08
everything that you want to see. And that's been around for a
38:14
long time and it's starting to take root to where nobody knows
38:18
the truth anymore unless you actively seek it.
38:22
If you don't seek the truth, you're getting fed a bunch of
38:25
bullshit that comported with some point of view that started
38:29
you down that path. And it could have been a really
38:32
rotten one. And nobody's in charge anymore.
38:35
Like it, it's kind of scary. It's a little bit of, you know,
38:41
it's brainwashing and not nobody's aware that they're
38:46
being brainwashed, right? Like if you're good at it.
38:50
And so this isn't exactly the topic, but I, I think this is
38:55
probably 70% of the problem is social media, the slash, the
39:01
algorithm slash, like what Kyle said, which is lack of human
39:07
consequence for your freedom of speech.
39:11
Your freedom of speech should come with an accountability to
39:15
defend it, or if you're going to offend somebody, that they might
39:20
be able to offend you as well and you might get a punch in the
39:25
face. That's still not illegal either,
39:28
but. I think technically the punch in
39:30
the face is, but it's warranted, right?
39:33
Right. Yeah, fair enough, Fair enough.
39:35
But you know what I'm talking about.
39:37
Like freedom of speech was never free of consequences, and now it
39:43
is. I find that interesting.
39:45
A side topic, I don't know if you followed this, that there's
39:49
been reports that big companies are firing people who made I'm
39:56
going to assume that they were egregious posts in the aftermath
40:00
of the assassination. And and don't you bet that some
40:06
of those people are are surprised.
40:08
And in fact, I've seen people saying, well, this isn't this is
40:11
evidence of suppression of free speech and, and.
40:17
I don't I don't agree. I don't agree.
40:18
Like you're totally free to say that, but your employer is
40:22
totally free to say I don't want any part of you in my company
40:25
and I'm firing you. Free speech means we don't go to
40:28
jail for saying things. It doesn't mean that it doesn't
40:32
mean that you could safely walk out of a bar after telling a guy
40:35
to go to hell. Right?
40:36
Like like there's no guarantees that's right of your free
40:40
speech. It it, it's a legal right.
40:43
It doesn't eliminate consequence.
40:46
And, and, and I I do think there's been a translation
40:49
error. Same same with separation
40:51
churches statement. That's a whole nother episode,
40:54
I'm sure. But yeah, like people's
40:57
expectation of what what it means to have all these rights
41:01
in America. They're like, well, they they
41:05
come with responsibilities too. Part of that is, you know, and
41:10
accountability. So, and we've removed, we've
41:14
removed some of the the negative consequences of speaking your
41:18
mind. And people do say some pretty,
41:22
pretty nasty things when nobody keeps them in check.
41:26
Well, and I, you know, we talked a bit last week about was it
41:31
last week we talked about gun control.
41:35
We were talking about, you know, 'cause we, you know, how do you
41:38
prevent these awful shootings from taking place?
41:40
And, you know, you know, Ken had a good point that, you know,
41:44
there's no one thing that's going to fix them all.
41:47
But even if you did something, is that better than nothing?
41:50
And hey, if you could reduce it by X percent, well, reducing by
41:54
X percent is better than 0%. I guess my fear is, you know, my
42:00
fear honestly is that this violence intensifies.
42:07
You know, when I, I look at some of the developing countries
42:10
around the world, or you look at Iraq, for instance, after the
42:15
war in Iraq, you know, and again, a whole other podcast
42:19
episode about trying to get a, a Middle Eastern country to just
42:23
become democratic out of the out of the blue.
42:26
But you know, these factions and they're fighting, you know, and
42:29
you have people walking into markets and blowing themselves
42:32
up and killing fifty people at a time.
42:35
You know, I guess my, that's my fear is America becomes that
42:39
like I go to target and 50 people got blown up or some
42:43
crazy. Like, you know, I, I don't want
42:47
to, I want again, sound doom and gloom, but it could get a whole
42:50
lot worse if people really wanted to start, you know,
42:54
taking this to the next level. And I guess where I was trying
42:57
to go a little bit last week was like, I don't necessarily oppose
43:01
gun control legislation that would would help, but it's like
43:05
I'm more worried like, how do you prevent the wacko Ness that
43:09
gets to firing a gun or setting a bomb off or whatever crazy ass
43:14
thing they're going to do? How do we rewind that clock?
43:17
And you're not going to shut social media off.
43:20
It's only get worse. I mean, I don't see a boy out of
43:23
this. Maybe the antidote for bad
43:28
speech is more speech. That's a kind of a libertarian
43:31
point of view that I really espoused.
43:34
I'm not sure it's true anymore because the speech is so
43:38
infected with all those other factors we talked about, like
43:43
whether it's the algorithm and, and quite frankly, it's
43:46
commercialist like they're they're selling clicks and
43:48
stuff. But I don't necessarily agree
43:51
that it's going to get worse, Kyle.
43:52
I think, I think this might be an inflection point and maybe
43:59
discourse is just it. Discourse is already ugly.
44:02
Look, if you look back at the first decade of our of our
44:08
union, like there was a lot of really strong disagreements
44:13
between some of the founding fathers.
44:15
It was in nicer words than we use today, but they disagreed
44:19
just as strongly. I think that maybe we're just
44:24
trying to figure out the mechanics of it and that we
44:29
don't shut stuff down. We just figured out as a
44:33
society, as Kent said, we start at the individual level.
44:36
We each take a responsibility to conduct ourselves properly.
44:41
We teach our children to do that.
44:43
And it might take a minute, but I you're right, we're never
44:48
going to shut it down. So maybe we need to learn how to
44:51
engage with it properly. One thing that strikes me is
44:55
that issue by issue, we would wind up in sometimes among the
45:01
three of us having four different viewpoints, right,
45:03
Like we would we would certainly disagree about things, but I
45:07
don't I don't think any of the three of us is a candidate for
45:15
the kind of insanity of political violence that we see.
45:20
So here's the issue. Like you guys aren't the ones
45:24
I'm worried about. And what's the difference
45:27
between between like, like sussing out the difference.
45:32
This one, the assassin in the Kirk case.
45:36
I don't remember his name and wouldn't say it if I did.
45:39
It's a little bit terrifying because it doesn't look like
45:45
somebody who'd been living in the woods like Ted Kaczynski for
45:49
years, right? Like this is an honor roll
45:51
student. This was a scholarship and
45:55
academic scholarship to college kind of student.
45:59
I was just thinking about this. You were talking to her like, so
46:02
like, how do you how do you make sure people are in the safe from
46:06
having to worry about them assassinating people club?
46:09
Like how do you how do you promote people into that group?
46:13
And honestly, most of the things that I would have listed this
46:18
kid qualified for parents are involved, good education.
46:23
Like, yeah, like if, if I in the abstract, if I were going to
46:27
list like, well, how do we prevent kids from getting this?
46:29
Like, well, we stay involved with them as their family and we
46:33
teach them values and we make sure that they get a good
46:35
education so they've got a good opportunity in life.
46:39
Maybe he had a screw loose or maybe just shows you just how
46:42
pernicious social media and, and in this case, I think online
46:48
gaming, like I'm not, I don't want to go down that rabbit hole
46:50
because they don't know a ton about it, but I don't think
46:54
those were good influences in his life and I think they
46:56
dominated his life for the last several years.
47:00
Well, I don't know. And I, and I do think too, the
47:04
problem is I think a lot of young people today, and I don't
47:08
know if it's a thing today or maybe it's just being young, but
47:12
don't make the connection of how permanent death is.
47:16
And I sound stupid, but I've heard of kids that have killed
47:19
themselves and like they didn't think like, I don't know what
47:25
their thought process was. But there's there's this kind of
47:28
point of view that like doesn't relate how permanent death, you
47:34
know, the people that make these decisions, life changing
47:36
decisions are very young age. Sometimes they don't think about
47:39
him in terms of perspective. And so I'm not saying this kid
47:43
didn't think he was really killing Charlie Kirk, But at the
47:45
same time, I do wonder, at a certain youthful age, do they
47:50
really understand the gravity of any decision they're making?
47:53
Well, that that's an interesting point and probably, you know, a
47:57
slightly off topic, but it did. It brings up a question for me.
48:03
When's the first time you saw a dead body?
48:05
Probably Baba's funeral. Your your your.
48:09
Grandmother, 12 years old. OK.
48:12
Did it have an impact on you? I mean, OK, But like, kids, kids
48:18
are not, they don't see as much death because everybody's living
48:23
longer, Everybody's healthier. Like we don't have as many
48:26
accidents. Like there was, you know, an
48:30
accident with my son's good friend recently.
48:36
And it changes your perspective, you know, like when somebody
48:41
dies at a young age like that and you know, you're associated
48:45
with it. So I, I think you're, you, you
48:47
have a good point. But maybe even just a few
48:49
decades, decades ago when we were growing up, like life is a
48:52
little more dangerous and you were a little more attuned with
48:58
death, whether you know, whether it was family members or friends
49:03
or whatever. And you're right, I think we've
49:06
been desensitized to it a little bit.
49:07
And I, I don't just think it's from violent video games cause,
49:11
well, those have been around since the 80s and they, they've
49:13
been having, they've been saying bad things about those.
49:15
But I think life is pretty sanitized.
49:19
You don't, you don't see death, you're not confronted with it.
49:23
But when you are like, we had a kid who had cancer at the high
49:27
school and he went through a really hard struggle and he was
49:32
friends with everybody and it changed everybody in that high
49:35
school a little bit just because they like his.
49:41
His struggle to stay alive and thrive was shared on social
49:47
media. One of the good things the
49:49
social media can do. And it impacted everybody in
49:54
that school in a positive way and gave them a little
49:57
perspective on just how valuable and how tentative you know your
50:02
life can be. Sorry, little bit of a little
50:05
bit of a tent, but I thought that it it.
50:07
And I guess, I guess Ken, I would pose it to you.
50:12
So he's expresses 1 angle, which could be a, a positive, you
50:17
know, next step. Does this become something that
50:20
people talk about and is used for good or does it go down the
50:24
path of I saw this. I don't know if you saw the the
50:29
there was an editorial in the Telegraph by Janet Daly.
50:33
She's a a journalist in and she her, the title is the American
50:38
dream is ending in a psychotic breakdown.
50:40
She's a Brit and well, no, actually, I think she's
50:43
American, but working for a British paper.
50:45
But basically making the point that, you know, this is this is
50:51
the path forward for America because it's all just a twisted
50:56
dream that people can live in freedom and cherish all their
50:59
freedom of speech and all this stuff that it's all going to go
51:01
down that crapper or is it going to be positive?
51:04
What do you think? Kent?
51:04
Come on. I hope you say it's the positive
51:06
side, but I'm. I'm going to make a bet this is
51:10
actually come up in multiple conversations and and I would
51:13
say more than you know, and I can't think we I think we
51:17
settled that that me and my liberal friends aren't doing
51:20
some celebration about this assassination.
51:23
In fact, I would say more than anything, the kinds of
51:26
conversations that I've had are wow, are, are, are we really
51:31
standing at the precipice of the abyss like is this?
51:37
And I do think we will absolutely remember this
51:42
particular assassination. I think it's going to be
51:44
foundational. My hope is that it will be a bit
51:50
of a turning point where we push back, but it's sure not going to
51:53
happen fast and it's not going to happen seamlessly or
51:57
painlessly. I'm choosing, literally
52:02
choosing, to believe that our country has been to these Brinks
52:09
before and we've come through. We came to a brink at Fort
52:14
Sumter and it fell apart and we had a second American Revolution
52:19
in the as the Civil War has been, I think, well described.
52:23
But there are other alternatives.
52:25
I think that, you know, I mentioned 1968 at at the top of
52:30
this, that period from 1963 with John F Kennedy's assassination
52:35
by a single lone gunman unattached to anybody else, to
52:42
Bobby Kennedy, to Martin Luther King, to Malcolm X and political
52:48
violence and assassination was a part of the fabric of the 1960s.
52:52
You can't say that our our disunity in this country right
52:59
now has anything on the disunity in the country in the period
53:05
1968697071 Kent State, for God's sake and so.
53:12
Agreed. It looks bad, man.
53:15
It looks bad. This week was bad.
53:18
The the week that the Minnesota legislator was shot was bad.
53:22
And the way that we talk about people is bad.
53:25
I'm not ready to say irredeemable, and I'm going to
53:29
maintain hope that at some point we can.
53:33
So here's an interesting hypothesis, maybe, maybe not a
53:36
good one. I'm going to say that Watergate
53:39
was in some ways the path back from that when we because the
53:45
one thing you can't think about Watergate is that it wasn't the
53:50
haves trying to pull one over on people.
53:52
And I think that's a really pervasive issue in our
53:56
government. And I think a lot of the
54:00
division is exactly, if not engineered, it's certainly
54:04
tolerated and embraced by those in power.
54:07
I I said on a previous episode, and I stand by, I think that my
54:12
enemy is not Republicans in this country.
54:15
My enemy is Russia. And all the energy that I spend
54:21
thinking that Republicans are my enemy and not thinking about
54:24
Russia being my enemy is a wasted effort.
54:27
But it is very fruitful for those who would use me as a
54:31
tool. I think it's going to be OK so.
54:34
What? So what you're saying is the
54:37
path out of this whole thing is Epstein?
54:41
Yeah, honestly, I think there's something to that.
54:46
Not not that, but like. We could all come together when
54:50
we realize they're all against it.
54:52
You know, honestly, Kurt, that's exactly what I'm saying.
54:55
I think that's part of what happened with Watergate.
54:57
Everybody's like, oh, wait, those guys, this, those guys
54:59
says wait a minute. Those guys are all like, we're
55:02
all pawns in this, right? If we're draft age, they're
55:05
shipping us off to Vietnam, not because we're trying to save
55:08
democracy from the Russians, but because we didn't want to lose
55:12
face like people. We didn't want them taking over.
55:18
Yeah, that that was a mess. But yeah, I I don't disagree
55:22
with you. That was a turning point.
55:24
You know, like when, what, you know, it is time to throw the
55:28
bums out and they're all bums, you know, let's replace them
55:31
with some new bombs. And you know, it and the, the
55:35
culture did change and but it, it, it took a minute and, you
55:40
know, let's say the, the hippies of that generation are still in
55:45
power in the legislature on the left side.
55:49
And you know, like, is that good or bad?
55:52
I don't know. But they're still holding on to
55:54
that. The Democrats do not have a
55:56
monopoly on draft dodgers from the 60s.
55:59
I will just point that out. Exactly.
56:03
Fair, no, fair enough, fair enough.
56:06
So it, it did change and you know that that was, that was a
56:10
turning point in our country and it worked itself out.
56:14
We have a different dynamic and I think it's going to work
56:17
itself out too. So I, I think I'm in agreement
56:19
with you that you're, you're, you're kind of being positive on
56:24
this and that, you know, the, the big message everyone needs
56:28
to get is that they're all lying to you.
56:31
And it's not just the government at this point, it's your social
56:35
media accounts. It's, it's Russia because
56:38
they're, you know, they're influencing your social media
56:42
accounts. And so remember who your enemy
56:46
is and who your friends are, and learn to trust your fellow
56:52
American. Well, but if but if the stats
56:55
are wrong, you just fired the administrator, right Kent?
56:59
Exactly. Oh, Bureau of Labor Statistics.
57:02
Gotcha. Did you did you guys review
57:04
Trump's statement on the I mean, yeah, Kent, sounds like you did.
57:09
Kyle, did you watch it? I think Kyle got it, Kyle quoted
57:12
it. I made it up so but it it still
57:15
didn't look great. No, his words were actually
57:18
great. I think maybe you could take
57:21
issue with that, but without naming my wife, I'm going to say
57:25
she brought up an excellent point.
57:28
She said, you know, as the head of state, he sets the
57:32
temperature and he can try to cool it down now, but he warmed
57:37
it up an awful lot with rhetoric.
57:40
And I was just very impressed with that, that insight.
57:45
And you know, there's a lot of things we can say about the guy.
57:50
I don't think he punches down as much as he punches across.
57:54
Can I know you and I might, I agree with you on the immigrant
57:59
issue. He kind of picked on people
58:00
below his station. But other than that, he mostly
58:04
picks on people who have attacked him or threaten him and
58:10
who can defend themselves. So I understand it and sometimes
58:15
have defended his orderiness as just basically, you know, being
58:22
self-defense. But as head of state, you got to
58:25
realize you have a higher responsibility.
58:28
I draw a thread for myself and, you know, I'm going to sound
58:32
like a like a broken record on this, but my statement earlier
58:37
about, you know, fixing this starts with me.
58:41
One of the things that bothers me most about Trump is the other
58:46
ring of people. And I, I think that's really
58:49
clear in the way that he talks about immigrants.
58:51
I know that not everybody agrees, but, you know, you can
58:56
at least excerpt things that you've said that are, I, I think
58:59
are, are really disrespectful to people.
59:02
And I think that the Democrats did this.
59:06
I I I would put that in the same class.
59:09
The radical left lunatics. But right, Well, it wasn't
59:14
different. Radical left lunatics really
59:17
like OK if if this guy. No, I, I'm just saying he didn't
59:20
say Democrats, he said radical left.
59:22
I don't think you consider yourself a radical left lunatic.
59:25
So I. Don't know, but he does because
59:27
he's used that exact label to talk about all kinds of things
59:31
that are exactly in my wheelhouse.
59:33
That that's what I'm I'm saying I just othering period is a it's
59:39
a bad thing in a democracy. I I I just when, when you, you
59:44
try to like you're painting people by their group.
59:48
Which is from the left. But the left has.
59:52
Started on the left. I don't know if it started the.
59:55
The left has had its own problems with that, I agree.
1:00:01
And I understand the grievances. They are legitimate.
1:00:05
But I don't think Donald Trump killed the discourse.
1:00:10
I think he's the. Coroner I think there's some
1:00:13
truth to that and by the way I also don't take part of my I'm
1:00:18
the problem or whatever you want to call that label.
1:00:21
I mean, I, I keep saying to my liberal friends that all of the
1:00:27
things that I and I literally do loathe Donald Trump and the
1:00:31
things that he says. But on some level, like I, I was
1:00:37
bitter about his first election, this election.
1:00:40
What the hell? Like can we not deal with the
1:00:44
fact that Joe Biden, whom I admired as a man, Joe Biden's
1:00:51
obstinate refusal to get the hell out of the way that has a
1:00:55
direct relationship to Trump being re elected, How?
1:00:57
I can't not look that in the eye.
1:01:00
Well, we're having the wrong conversation though.
1:01:03
I I mean, I guess I'm saying though.
1:01:05
Would Trump have won anyway? I don't know.
1:01:08
Not without Charlie Kurt, probably.
1:01:10
And and that pisses a lot of people off, a lot of people who
1:01:14
are like, man, this was a huge missed opportunity.
1:01:17
And this guy, you know, he he makes no bones about what he
1:01:23
believes. And I'm sure a lot of people saw
1:01:26
that as like, man, we had this if it weren't for him and if it
1:01:31
weren't for Joe Biden and Trump, who's an asshole?
1:01:35
Yeah, OK. But.
1:01:37
So they see but. That's not reason.
1:01:39
They're it. Wasn't.
1:01:41
An organization that killed him. It was some guy that was pissed
1:01:45
and had a grievance. Well, yeah, but that's not what
1:01:48
your average Democrat is probably critiquing.
1:01:53
They're blaming some. They're blaming Charlie Kirk or
1:01:57
blaming Trump or blaming somebody else.
1:02:00
You know, like I. Don't think so.
1:02:02
I I don't think so. I I think I see this for what it
1:02:05
is. Of course there are examples,
1:02:08
right? But I think by and large, people
1:02:10
see this for what it is, I hope. Well, I hope so too.
1:02:15
I think there are a lot of people then on everything.
1:02:19
And so even when it's just dumb circumstances like this or bad
1:02:25
strategy, they don't see that. They see the other side is
1:02:29
trying to eliminate me and you know, and the fix is in and I'm
1:02:35
going to level the playing field.
1:02:37
And so you get these vigilantes out there.
1:02:41
But I guess I'm where I'm at, is I, I, I think you got a, a dumb
1:02:47
kid that doesn't know what he's doing and did a horrible thing.
1:02:54
I guess what I'm saying is it's like, I don't think this dude
1:02:59
had the kind of geopolitical sense to think about, well, you
1:03:05
know, if we could eliminate this individual and blah, blah, blah.
1:03:07
No, it's just some jerk with a grievance.
1:03:10
Like this wasn't some sophisticated guy like scoping
1:03:14
out the political scene. He's just some asshole that shot
1:03:18
at somebody, you know, And I, I guess I'm just saying like.
1:03:22
All right, that that's an excellent point.
1:03:25
Let me ask you why did he think that he had stationed to take
1:03:33
that grievance to that level? And, and that, and that's the
1:03:36
real question, I think in on a social level is the narcissism
1:03:40
maybe that we're developing. And, you know, you can look at,
1:03:46
I can go off on a little tangent here about, you know, different
1:03:49
cultures and they're, you know, their, their social pecking
1:03:52
order and things like that. And you, you don't like, if
1:03:55
you're in India, I mean, my God, with the caste system, you're,
1:03:58
you're not going to speak to somebody above your level.
1:04:02
But as Americans, man, we think we are the, you know, if, if the
1:04:08
president said something rude to you, what would you do?
1:04:11
You'd say, Hey, screw you because you're an American.
1:04:15
You think you're the most important person on the planet
1:04:18
and we've developed that, which is probably a relatively healthy
1:04:23
thing and it's created a lot of productivity in our nation and
1:04:27
all that and and development all that.
1:04:29
But this is the downside of it is we're telling everybody that
1:04:34
your opinion is the most important opinion on the planet.
1:04:38
And if somebody offends you, like they're not just wrought,
1:04:42
like you don't have a right to be offended because you're that
1:04:45
important. No, that's basically Janet
1:04:47
Daly's point in her editorial. We have a society that is all
1:04:52
entitled and everybody's thinking what they want.
1:04:54
And we, we, we built it, you know?
1:04:56
Well, OK, I I felt like we should have entered the podcast
1:05:00
about 1/2 hour ago, 'cause then we had Kent professing that
1:05:05
everything was going to work out and now we're back to the world
1:05:07
is ending. So I don't know about.
1:05:10
This well, we're we're a bunch of narcissists and.
1:05:14
In some ways, Kurt, I think that's maybe partly what's
1:05:18
ironically that's sort of what's missing at this point.
1:05:22
I, I think on the like the personal level, you're right.
1:05:25
I don't, I think they're very few Americans who if president
1:05:28
of the United States, Well, yeah, I mean, we'd stand up and
1:05:30
shake their hand, right. But I, I've often thought about
1:05:34
that, you know, if Trump came here and to our campus and spoke
1:05:38
and like, I got it, I'd probably go.
1:05:40
But I'd probably say, yeah, I, I think you're way off the mark
1:05:43
with this and that. Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't
1:05:46
hesitate to that. But you know, in a way.
1:05:48
Hey I if I may interrupt Kent, I might point out that this is the
1:05:53
same Kent who smoked a cigar with Steve Scalise.
1:05:57
No. No, no, Scalia.
1:06:00
Scalia I mean, yes. Anthony no, I'm sorry, sorry,
1:06:02
the wrong name. Sorry, but that's I mean, it's
1:06:06
like a it's like a bourbon and rum podcast.
1:06:08
You, you know, you, you, you know, I may think that he
1:06:13
literally handed away America's soul with the Citizens United
1:06:18
decision, but that's not a reason to not to have a cigar
1:06:21
with a guy. Sorry, no, sorry to interrupt.
1:06:24
You I think that what we need though, is to recapture a little
1:06:27
bit of that American hubris and people realize that that we do
1:06:31
have agency in fixing this. And I don't mean that we pick up
1:06:35
rifles and kill people that don't agree with this.
1:06:37
We have agency by choosing to be civil, to be to choosing to, to
1:06:44
to stand up for a values, but in a respectful way.
1:06:46
Yeah, I I totally agree. Like we got to take the the best
1:06:51
of a free society and nurture it and some of the worst which
1:06:57
we're seeing now and do our best to eliminate it without force
1:07:03
because that we don't want to go down that road.
1:07:06
So, yeah, like the, the, the best of it is, is that station,
1:07:11
that agency, that, that hubris, you know, like that I feel
1:07:16
empowered to to say what I want. And some good ideas are going to
1:07:21
emerge from that. A lot of bad ones too, but
1:07:25
you're not going to get the good ones if you don't allow it.
1:07:29
And so I, I, I'm more than ever committed to free speech.
1:07:33
I think Charlie was annoying if you disagreed with him, but I do
1:07:40
think he lived what he said, which was, you know, like he
1:07:46
civil discourse. I, I think he was civil and I
1:07:50
think he honed his arguments rather than shouting people
1:07:56
down. I, I, you know, and, and, and
1:07:59
that might be why it struck me. Yeah, well, I think that may be
1:08:04
exactly the note on which to end.
1:08:06
And I agree with you wholeheartedly.
1:08:08
We're really grateful to have you on the podcast with us this
1:08:11
week. It's been fun.
1:08:13
I appreciate it. I hope I didn't hijack it too
1:08:15
much. I respect you guys both and your
1:08:20
ability to, you know, share ideas and and not get irritated
1:08:27
and talk over each other and I'm honored.
1:08:32
Thanks. Well, I think we it was a
1:08:34
success. Nobody.
1:08:35
There were no F bombs either, so we did great.
1:08:39
Our streak is unbroken, right? That's right.
1:08:46
Hey, thanks for joining us on this episode of Bourbon and Rum
1:08:48
Podcast. We hope you enjoyed it.
1:08:50
Remember to subscribe on your favorite platform and leave us a
1:08:54
review. Your feedback helps us keep the
1:08:56
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1:09:01
Let us know what you think. Let us know what you want to
1:09:03
hear. And until next time, cheers.