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RETIRED FBI AGENT JEFFREY RINEK DISCUSSES ONE OF HIS MOST TOUGHEST CASES · Inside The Criminal Mind

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  Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome to Inside the Criminal Mind podcast, where we
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  Speaker 1: analyze some of the most notorious criminal cases with psychology
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  Speaker 1: and criminology combined. Here's your host, doctor Carlos.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone. We have another great guest, retired Special
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  Speaker 2: Agent of the FBI, Jeffrey Reinick. He served thirty years
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  Speaker 2: with the FBI, primarily investigating cases of missing and murdered children,
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  Speaker 2: and is internationally renowned for obtaining a surprise confession from
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  Speaker 2: a serial killer named Carrie Stainer. We're going to be
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  Speaker 2: talking about that case and a couple other ones, and
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  Speaker 2: especially about his book. It's called In the Name of
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  Speaker 2: the Children and FBI agent's relentless pursuit of the nation's
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  Speaker 2: worst predators. I'm telling you right now, folks, I just
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  Speaker 2: finished reading this about a day ago. It's a super,
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  Speaker 2: super intense book, but it's a must read. It's a
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  Speaker 2: reality that many of us don't see or hear, and
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  Speaker 2: I get it, but it's definitely something you need to
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  Speaker 2: know if you have children. I highly highly recommend it.
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  Speaker 2: If you like any of the books that you read
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  Speaker 2: from John Douglas and mind Hunters, In the Name of
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  Speaker 2: the Children is for you again. Now Jeffrey Rennick was
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  Speaker 2: in the Sacramento office of the FBI. He was responsible
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  Speaker 2: for assisting police and sheriff's departments throughout northern California and
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  Speaker 2: active and cold case investigations involving missing children, child kidnappings,
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  Speaker 2: and the abuse, expectation and murder of children. You're going
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  Speaker 2: to see the psychological toll this takes on these agents.
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  Speaker 2: This is some things you don't normally see. I know
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  Speaker 2: you may be a Criminal Minds fan, but you're only
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  Speaker 2: getting thirty seconds and this has much more of a long,
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  Speaker 2: longer impact on these individuals. We're going to talk about
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  Speaker 2: that as well throughout the show. Before we get started, share, subscribe,
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: hit that I like button. You know we like it,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: so let's not waste any more time. Welcome to the show.
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  Speaker 2: Agent Reinick, thank you, thank you very much. As I
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  Speaker 2: mentioned before the show, thank you very much for your
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  Speaker 2: service as well.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's the intense part about this book.
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  Speaker 2: When I was reading, I did a podcast last year.
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  Speaker 2: I started on homicide detectives and it's really amazing sing
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  Speaker 2: what they see every day. And I remember just talking
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  Speaker 2: to them and going, Wow, how do you process this stuff?
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  Speaker 4: Day?
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  Speaker 2: In and day out, and then I was reading your
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  Speaker 2: stories and the way you wrote the book was brilliant
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  Speaker 2: because you start off gradually, going from one case to another,
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  Speaker 2: and it seemed like even the cases were getting more
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  Speaker 2: and more intense each and every one. So let me
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  Speaker 2: do this and start off with this. What motivated you? Well, actually,
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  Speaker 2: you read the book, you'll find out what motivated you.
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  Speaker 2: What motivated you become an FBI agent.
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  Speaker 4: Well, I've always always wanted to be an FBI agent
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  Speaker 4: since I can remember. I was born with a defect
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  Speaker 4: on my left side, and as I grew up, I
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  Speaker 4: was bullied a lot. And my father was a funeral
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  Speaker 4: director in Philadelphia and one of the funerals was for
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  Speaker 4: a you know, a mob guy, and I saw the
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  Speaker 4: FBI agents there and they just really impressed me. And
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  Speaker 4: I felt like, if I could do anything, I would
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  Speaker 4: want to be an FBI agent. I never thought it
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  Speaker 4: would be possible for me, but I worked real hard.
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  Speaker 4: I was able to get into agents class in nineteen
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  Speaker 4: seventy eight.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you have an amazing story. He's really just touching
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  Speaker 2: the tip of the iceberg. Folks, when you read that
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  Speaker 2: story and see how much he accomplished on that was.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I always like to ask have another podcast
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  Speaker 2: in Special Forces always intrigued me because a lot of
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  Speaker 2: these guys got motivated by the Green Beret or Rambo
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  Speaker 2: actually one of them. Anything like that ever happened to you?
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  Speaker 2: Is it the Untouchables? I don't even think they were
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  Speaker 2: around back then.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know.
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  Speaker 4: No, I don't think it was any one person in particular.
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  Speaker 4: I think it was you know, I was like every
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  Speaker 4: family around that time, where on Sunday nights we would
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  Speaker 4: watch the FBI and that really impressed me. And then
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  Speaker 4: once I became interested in the FBI, I started reading
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  Speaker 4: and of course it was the FBI with James Stewart.
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  Speaker 3: So I always wanted that, you know, I just always
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  Speaker 3: wanted to do that.
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  Speaker 4: That's the way I saw myself, although I never thought
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  Speaker 4: with my medical issues, I would ever be able to
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  Speaker 4: achieve it.
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  Speaker 2: Now you're taking me back. Now that was a long
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  Speaker 2: time ago. Yeah, those are classics. They didn't even have
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  Speaker 2: comic books for the FBI.
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  Speaker 3: I don't remember if they did. I never saw them.
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  Speaker 2: Amazing stuff. We'll try to keep it light in the beginning, right, Yeah, yeah, thanks,
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  Speaker 2: So I know we're going to go right into the furry.
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  Speaker 2: First case. You talked about Jeffrey in your very first
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  Speaker 2: coection after very first case was different. Frankie was your
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  Speaker 2: very first case. Yes, tell us a little bit about
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  Speaker 2: that case, and then we'll head over to Carrie Standers.
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  Speaker 2: I know a lot of the book is about Carrie Stanner,
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  Speaker 2: but tell us about Frankie.
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  Speaker 4: Well, Frankie was my first experience working abductive children, and
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  Speaker 4: it happened here in Sacramento, and I was assigned. We
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  Speaker 4: had a seven month old baby that was abducted in
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  Speaker 4: an armed home invasion in South Sacramento. I was sent
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  Speaker 4: down by my supervisor to work with the Sacramento Police Department.
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  Speaker 4: And you know a lot of local law enforcement does
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  Speaker 4: not like the FBI to show up or to be around,
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  Speaker 4: and it was no different.
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  Speaker 3: They weren't needing us, they weren't wanting us. But I was.
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  Speaker 4: Able to make contact with the case detective, a guy
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  Speaker 4: named Greg Stewart, and I told him, you know, we
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  Speaker 4: had polygraph, we had all kinds of resources that were
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  Speaker 4: available to them, and so at that point, Greg Stewart
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  Speaker 4: and I started working together on this case and we
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  Speaker 4: developed a very close friendship. We're still friends to this day,
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  Speaker 4: and we were able to recover Frankie four days after
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  Speaker 4: he was abducted.
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  Speaker 2: Oh that's good news to hear. Now, there's a lot
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  Speaker 2: more to that story. There was a lot of ups
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  Speaker 2: and downs, and you'll have to forgive me some of
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  Speaker 2: the stories were blending in together in my head. I know,
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  Speaker 2: I just read it. There was one that kind of
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  Speaker 2: threw me off. The way you wrote it was great.
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  Speaker 2: It was just like I was reading a movie and
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  Speaker 2: it was tragic as it was a real story. And
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  Speaker 2: there was one where I think they broke into the
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  Speaker 2: house on a home invasion. It looked like it was
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  Speaker 2: going to be a home invasion of robbery, and that's
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  Speaker 2: what it looked like initially, and then it kind of
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  Speaker 2: the story starts changing and it really threw you guys off.
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  Speaker 2: It sounds like in the beginning of trying to do
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  Speaker 2: this investigation, because you're like, well, nobody really got harmed.
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  Speaker 2: They came into the house and then they took the child.
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  Speaker 2: What's happening here? And there was a lot of twists
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  Speaker 2: and turns in that story. What story was that?
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  Speaker 4: That was Frankie. That's the one we're just franking about. Okay,
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  Speaker 4: and yeah, and it was. It turned out to be
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  Speaker 4: a situation where we had a girl who had lost
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  Speaker 4: her own pregnancy, and sometimes women will want to replace
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  Speaker 4: the baby they losed, and in this case, the girl
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  Speaker 4: convinced two of her friends that Frankie was actually her
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  Speaker 4: daughter that was taken from her, and these guys believed
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  Speaker 4: that they were rescuing the baby, when in reality they
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  Speaker 4: didn't know.
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  Speaker 3: The true story.
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  Speaker 4: And Carylos, I don't know if it will help your listeners,
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  Speaker 4: but this book, I know, this book is different. The
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  Speaker 4: New York Times commented that it had a different type
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  Speaker 4: of voice to it, and I want your listeners to
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  Speaker 4: know that after I retired from the FBI, the emotional
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  Speaker 4: impact of the cases had really affected me and in
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  Speaker 4: turn had affected my family, and my wife asked me to.
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  Speaker 3: Write my story for my sons.
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  Speaker 4: So what I did was I spent a winner here
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  Speaker 4: at Sacramento where it's raining, and I literally cried and
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  Speaker 4: type my story from the beginning until the present. And
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  Speaker 4: it was done for my sons, for my wife, And
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  Speaker 4: that is what your listeners would be reading because after
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  Speaker 4: it was done, my wife, Laurie, thought that it might
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  Speaker 4: help other responders, investigators even victims. And she has proven
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  Speaker 4: to be absolutely correct because we've gotten a multitude of
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  Speaker 4: calls from responders, from investigators and from victims. Some of
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  Speaker 4: the people that are actually reviewing the book are people
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  Speaker 4: that are from the book that are complimenting the books.
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  Speaker 3: So it's been it's a.
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  Speaker 4: Very very personal work that I did it from my
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  Speaker 4: heart thinking it would be for my son's only.
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  Speaker 2: No, and you can definitely tell because I could you
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  Speaker 2: express a lot of your feelings throughout the book and
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  Speaker 2: what's going on in your mind as with handling the cases.
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  Speaker 2: And that's it's a great piece of work because I
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  Speaker 2: know a couple of agents that I know currently that
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  Speaker 2: I was still active. They're working human trafficking. They had
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  Speaker 2: an incident a while back ago and it really affected her.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, she had to take a couple
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  Speaker 2: of days to try to regroup well she saw it
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  Speaker 2: and what had happened in the case. So I'm sure
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  Speaker 2: she'll benefit a lot as well.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: No, it's it really isn't in the tense book, folks,
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  Speaker 2: But like Jeff was saying, it's you'll definitely get a
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  Speaker 2: lot of the the emotional component of it. What an
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  Speaker 2: agent goes through and what they see, because it's not
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  Speaker 2: what you see in the new in the movies, and
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  Speaker 2: the movies that kind of treat you as an automaton.
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  Speaker 4: To you know, the goals for my sons to understand
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  Speaker 4: why their lives were affected by my being exposed to
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  Speaker 4: these cases. And it was a real surprise for me
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  Speaker 4: to learn that my sons themselves had been carrying around
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  Speaker 4: a little three by five cards that are generated when
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  Speaker 4: a child goes missing. There were some that they still
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  Speaker 4: carried with them. So to realize the hardship that I
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  Speaker 4: brought upon my family by working these cases was a
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  Speaker 4: difficult thing.
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  Speaker 2: I think you even mentioned one part of the book
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  Speaker 2: where you had said something to your son it was
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  Speaker 2: too young of the age, and then you realize I
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  Speaker 2: shouldn't have told him that.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, remember that. Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: And my younger son, now who you're mentioning, is now
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  Speaker 4: a police officer.
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  Speaker 3: Doing really well in that job.
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  Speaker 4: And so it's an honor to me that he chose
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  Speaker 4: that profession.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, I'm glad he's doing well too.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And it's tough because sometimes we're so afraid of them, right,
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  Speaker 2: but when you have little ones, you want to just
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  Speaker 2: be able to tell them, be careful of the boogey Man,
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  Speaker 2: be careful of this and that. But then they're so innocent.
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  Speaker 2: You don't want to ruin their view of utopia.
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  Speaker 3: I guess exactly.
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  Speaker 4: And in the book, the chapter entitled Michael, even to
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  Speaker 4: this day, Laurie is very guarded about letting our grandchildren
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  Speaker 4: wear any Batman clothes because Michael was wearing a Batman
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  Speaker 4: T shirt when he was abducted and murdered.
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  Speaker 3: I didn't know it.
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  Speaker 4: At the time, but she went through the house and
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  Speaker 4: guided up all the Batman apparel and you put it away,
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  Speaker 4: And even to this day, that case still rides with
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  Speaker 4: me and as a result, with my family.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, I can imagine so tough stuff. Tough stuff. And yeah,
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  Speaker 2: children are interesting, I know. I sometimes talk about this
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  Speaker 2: in lectures and stuff, and their innocence when they're so young,
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  Speaker 2: the world is so perfect and they think, they think
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  Speaker 2: the parents are going to live forever. And I remember
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  Speaker 2: seeing for the very first time a seven year old
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  Speaker 2: when they realized that Dad wasn't going to be around forever,
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  Speaker 2: and just to notice that, and they didn't know what
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  Speaker 2: to do with it, and they kind of moved along
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  Speaker 2: and it wasn't supposed to be pushed anywhere. But yeah,
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  Speaker 2: when that reality gets they mature a little faster all
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  Speaker 2: of a sudden.
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  Speaker 4: A law enforcement chaplain told me that our child victims
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  Speaker 4: are the most innocent and the most valuable, and I
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  Speaker 4: found that to be very accurate, because they are, like
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  Speaker 4: you said, they're the most innocent, they don't understand, and
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  Speaker 4: they have value by the virtue of what they're bringing
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  Speaker 4: to society and making us all better.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, I know we're gonna shift over to Carrie
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  Speaker 2: Stainer now, okay, and this is a very different case
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  Speaker 2: for you, because you found a lot of things in
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  Speaker 2: this case. I think you were surprised about. Tell us
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  Speaker 2: a little bit about this case.
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  Speaker 4: Well, in February of nineteen ninety nine, there were a
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  Speaker 4: mom named Carol's son, her daughter Julie's son, and a
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  Speaker 4: friend from Argentina named Silvina Ploso disappeared from a small
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  Speaker 4: town outside of Yosemite called El Pertal And at the
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  Speaker 4: time they disappeared, it was wintertime, so it was difficult
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  Speaker 4: whether driving conditions were very dangerous and the first dilemma
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  Speaker 4: that the Mariposa County Shrif's Department had was trying to
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  Speaker 4: determine whether their status of being missing was due to
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  Speaker 4: a car accident or something worse. And they did a
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  Speaker 4: wonderful job, you know, working the case. And it wasn't
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  Speaker 4: until the end of the week that they went missing
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  Speaker 4: that a insert from Carolson's wallet was discovered in Desto,
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  Speaker 4: and because the insert of her wallet showed up about
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  Speaker 4: sixty miles from where they were last seen, it was
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  Speaker 4: then treated as if it were a criminal matter, which
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  Speaker 4: was a good choice. And that's when the FBI was
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  Speaker 4: requested to join in, and we did, and I, because
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  Speaker 4: of my experience, was selected to be the case agent,
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  Speaker 4: even though the case occurred out of our Modesto office,
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  Speaker 4: and I was sent down to Modesto to handle the case.
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  Speaker 3: And that's how it started. What year was that again,
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  Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine. It was actually February fifteenth.
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  Speaker 2: So this is just prior because I don't know some folks,
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  Speaker 2: Paul might be aware of this. But the collaboration between
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: local and funeral law enforcement wasn't always great before nine
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  Speaker 2: to eleven. They got a lot better after nine to eleven.
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  Speaker 3: That's true.
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  Speaker 4: Our director in the nineties was Louis Free and there
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  Speaker 4: was the head of our behavioral science unit was a
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  Speaker 4: guy named Bill Hagmeier, and Bill, working through Lewis and others,
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  Speaker 4: was very instrumental in getting the FBI to become involved
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  Speaker 4: with cases involving children and to bring our resources to
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: play in those cases.
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  Speaker 3: And it had a.
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  Speaker 4: Very marked effect in the sense that when we started
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  Speaker 4: working these cases, we were successful at helping local law enforcement.
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  Speaker 4: And for me, from that point on, most of my
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  Speaker 4: time was spent working with local law enforcement. I'm proud
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  Speaker 4: to say that when I retired, you know, fifty percent
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  Speaker 4: of the people that came to my retirement were from
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: local law enforcement. And yeah, you're right though the FBI
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: isn't always welcome, welcome in places, but I think once
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: they get used to dealing with the agent in their
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: office that they're dealing with, that's not always the case.
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  Speaker 2: No. I know, because when I studied serial killer's, one
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  Speaker 2: of the interesting things about the older ones it was
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: the lack of communication between departments. So like the Golden
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: State Killer, right, he was killing inside Diego, La, up north,
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  Speaker 2: and they weren't communicating. They just thought it was another homicide.
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  Speaker 2: They're trying to figure it out, and it was. They
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: didn't have the systems as they have now, a codas
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: and things of that nature. So it's a very different world,
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  Speaker 2: I guess, even for you. So what was the first
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: thing you encountered when you started the Stainer case?
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  Speaker 4: Well, the first thing with me because of the training
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: and the.
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  Speaker 3: Exposure I had to our behavioral science unit, and.
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  Speaker 4: I developed just a personal strategy with these cases, starting
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: where the victims were last seen.
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  Speaker 3: The overwhelming percentage is.
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: That where your victims are last seen is going to
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  Speaker 4: be where whatever happened to them happened. So we started
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: at the Seer Lodge in El Pertel, and we started
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: by interviewing there was a maintenance man that had changed
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: the locks on their doors, and we started interviewing the
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: different maintenance people there and working our way through.
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  Speaker 3: There because that's where they had last been seen.
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  Speaker 4: As we were working the case, the head of our office,
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: the special agent charge, became more personally involved and started
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: taking the case over himself.
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  Speaker 2: How did that was that okay for you?
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  Speaker 4: Well, it didn't work out real good for me because
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: I didn't agree with this strategy and I was shortly
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: later removed as a case agent.
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  Speaker 3: But strategy of my boss was to follow the trail
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  Speaker 3: of failed polygraphs, which I don't believe in that. And
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  Speaker 3: then in terms of as we were recovering the victims,
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: the victims were recovered quite a distance from where they
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: had disappeared, and of course there was an issue over
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: where the crime had occurred, whether it was where they
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: were staying at the Cedar Lodge or where they were
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  Speaker 3: discovered near Sonora, California. Myself and the older agents believed that.
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  Speaker 4: What had happened had occurred at the Cedar Lodge, but
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: we were you know, we didn't have the command. So
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: the case was worked from the perspective of what happened
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: to them happened near Sonora. And then the management of
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: my office had identified a group of men and they
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: started working them to the exclusion of all other leads.
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  Speaker 3: That's tough.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: If I remember this was the case too. That was
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: this the case where you ended up going with somebody
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: else to meet a police officer, right right.
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  Speaker 4: He kind of helped out as my as my boss
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: was removing me from the case.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: There was a.
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: Young agent who had a lead down a Modesta, who
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: couldn't get anyone to go with her, so I volunteered
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: and then that day the two of us worked the
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: lead into two subjects named Michael Lorowick and Eugene Dykes,
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: and they turned up to be good suspects. We were
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: able to get a hold of their prison records and
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: their criminal history, and everything about them showed them to
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: be good contenders for being involved in what had happened
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: with Carol and the girls. But it also turned out
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: that Eugene Dykes, his name was rufus was his confessions
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: were not as specific as one would expect from a
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: person who committed the crime, and some of his statements
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: weren't consistent with what the evidence was.
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: And my boss just kept.
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: Persisting with these guys, even to the point of announcing
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: to the media that they were responsible for what had happened,
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: And so it caused a lot of.
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: It caused a.
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: Lot of confusion, And even in July, when our fourth
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: victim was abducted and murdered, my boss came out and
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: had said that the murder in July and the murders
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: from February were not related, when in fact it turned
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: out that they were.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Oh man, was that Do you think it was political
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: pressure or societal pressure?
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: No? I think that many times, in many law enforcement agencies,
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: we see people that will promote off the street, maybe
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: a little prematurely, and they don't get the street experience
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: they should get, and as a result, when they get
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: into a management position, they're also in a position where
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: they can make life and death decisions about cases.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: And I think in this case, we had a guy.
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: Who didn't have the experience, who sensed the attention the
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: case was getting internationally and felt this would be good
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: for his career, and because he didn't have previous experience,
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: he made some decisions that I didn't agree with. And
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: as a result, for the beginning period of the case,
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: from February up until July, these false suspects i'll call them,
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: were the ones being focused on.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Now, that's one of the things about the book, if
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: I remember correctly, towards the end of the book, towards
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: the last third or something, was the focus of your
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: interrogation skills. I guess you're interviewing skills, right, So you
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: were ready. We started seeing some of your skills set
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: already by noticing the inconsistencies of their stories.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: Did they ever plead guilty?
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: They didn't plead guilty to they.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: No, they never pled guilty to this because they didn't
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: do it. But Carrie Stainer, he pled guilty to his
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: federal charges and got life without possibility parole. And then
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: he because the state charged him with a death penalty case,
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: he went through a full trial in the state and
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: received a death penalty. He's on death row now at sandpoint. Yeah,
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: we're gonna get to carry now because it's interesting. I'm
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: not sure if you're familiar with it. My area of
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: expertise is criminal psychopathology is what I teach. So when
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: you were talking about Robert Hare in his book and
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: psychopaths and things of that nature, I was reading Stainer
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: and trying to really I was like, oh, well, he
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: seems to be checking off that PCL pretty well. And
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: the PCL, folks, is the Psychopathy Checklist, and.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: I think Hair was cralezy with the creator of that.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: And it was interesting. I was reading the book and
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: I'm going, Oh, okay, Stainer, this is interesting. As we
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: continue on, so tell us this what was like? It
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: wasn't like the first time you met Carrie Stanner.
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: Well, myself and two of my partners, John Bolz and
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: Ken Hitmyer. On Saturday morning, July twenty fourth, nineteen ninety nine.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: We were sent to a newdist colony and in just
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: south of Sacramento.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: You know, I actually forget the name.
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: Of the news colony now, And we were there to
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: pick up Carrie Steiner. We had no idea who he
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: was or why we were there to pick him up.
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: There was a command post set up in Yosemite where
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: the case of Joey Armstrong was being worked, but the
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: information at the command post was kept at the command post,
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: So the three of us going down there.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: Really didn't know.
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: I knew Krry Steiner's brother, Steven he was, but outside
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: of that, we had no idea that Kerry Stanner was
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: a suspect.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, I had to had to apologize. But I
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: remember when you talked about the newdest colony thing. It
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: reminded me of Clues Out and the Ping Panther when
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: he had to go to.
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: The I think it was called Laguna del Soul. Yeah, yeah,
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: that's exactly when I went down there. That's exactly what
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: I was thinking as Peter Sellers and in the movie.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: And uh, believe me, it was nothing like it.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure it wasn't. No guitar for you. So
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: what was it like when you when you actually had
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: him in the room to interview him?
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: Well, it actually, Carlos.
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: What happened was we because we didn't know who he
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: was in terms of the case, and we really didn't
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: know why we were there with him. We were dependent
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: upon instructions coming from the command post, and eventually it
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: filtered down to us that they wanted us to try
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: and find a way to get him to come back
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: to our office in Sacramento where he could be interviewed.
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: Is that norma not to tell you, guys, what's going
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: on like that?
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: That's pretty I had never experienced that before that, guys.
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: And it was a Saturday morning, you know, and my
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: sons were away for the weekend, and my wife Laura
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: and I were anticipating a good weekend together. So on
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: one hand, you know, I was I always want to
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: do my job, but on the other hand, I wanted
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: to get home. And what we ended up doing. I
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: told Carrie that we didn't know why we were there.
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: I was very honest with him, and that we were
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: being requested to bring him back to our office in
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: Sacramento to be interviewed and if he would agree to that,
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: I offered to give him a ride back to our office,
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: and then after the interview, I offered I would bring
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: him back down to Laguna del Soul. So he accepted
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: that offer. And then John Bowles was my partner and
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: he was following me in another so together Carrie in
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: the car with me, and I drove a two door car,
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: So in that situation, I put Kerrie in the passenger seat,
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: handcuffed because I didn't know anything about him, and then
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: belt it in and John Bowles followed me for security.
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: And it should have been a forty five minute ride
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: back to the office, but it turned out to be
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: ninety minutes because there was road construction, and during that time,
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: Carrie and I just got to know each other, just talking.
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: We were two guys thrown in a car for reasons
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: that we weren't sure of, or at least I wasn't
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: sure of, and we spent the ride back just getting
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: to know each other and talking. I had asked him
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: if I could ask him about his brother, Steven and
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: how it affected his family, and he had agreed because
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: I worked those cases and I wanted to know what
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: law enforcement could do to be better, and I thought
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: he would be a good person to tell us, you know,
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: what law enforcement did with his family that was good
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: and what they might have done that was not good
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: and throw And so for that ride back, we talked
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: about Steven. We also talked about Kerry Steiner in person
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: looks very much like a movie character named billy Jack.
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: There was a movie named billy Jack. You're right exactly.
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: The stars Tom Laughlin and Billy Jack was kind of
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: like one of the first martial arts movies, and it
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: was I love that movie. I watched it over and over,
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: and while we were driving back, I kept saying, you've
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: ever seen billy Jack?
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: And He's like, I never saw it, never saw it.
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: But then as we were pulling into the parking lot
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: of our office, he recited for me one of the
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: classic lines from the movie where billy Jack looks at
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: the antagonist and says that he's going to take his
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: foot and hit him upside his face and there's nothing
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: to do about it.
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: And so so we.
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: Both laughed and I realized, you know that in some
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: way he was telling me that, you know, he was
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: okay with me.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: Do you know how strange it sounds that you were
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: writing with in a car right next to a serial
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: killer without you knowing.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: It wasn't no idea.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: That's blowing to me.
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: When we got him back to our office, because he
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: wasn't under arrest and we were told that he was
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: a witness.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: We uncuffed him.
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: We put him in a interview room, unsecured with the
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: unlocked door, and told him that anytime he wanted to
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: end it and come home, go home, we would do
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: that for him. And then, because we had no information
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: about what to do, we were asking we didn't know.
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: My boss, his name was James Maddock, was at the
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: office when we brought carry Stainer back and he told
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: us that Carrie Stainer was a witness and he considered
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: interviewing him himself but needed to go decided you need
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: to go to the semity because there was a press
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: conference going on there, and asked me to interview him.
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: I had no idea what to interview him about. So
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: what John and I did We called our polygraph examiner
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: and had him come in because as part of the
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: polygraph he has to do an interview and he might
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: be able to get more information to do that interview with. Also,
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: we had taken Carrie Stainer from his breakfast, so I
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: ordered in a pizza forest. At eight o'clock on a
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: Saturday morning, I ordered him pizza, and then the pizza
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: arrived and our polygraphic examiner arrived at the same moment,
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: and John Bowles came into the room where we were
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: with Carrie Stainer and told them that the pizza was there,
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: the polygrapher was there.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: What do you want to do first?
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: And then Carrie looked at me and said, well, let's
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: skip the polygraph. I'd like to speak to Jeff alone.
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: And that's kind of a standing joke with the people
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: I worked with at the time, because I would always
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: fall into these confessions, so to speak, and people would
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: confess to me frequently, and a lot of times when
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: a polygraph was scheduled, that's how it would happen. They
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: would say, you know, I want to skip the polygraph
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: and talk to Jeff. So as soon as he has
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: to speak with me alone. Because we had no information
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: about the case, we had no idea what he wanted
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: to talk to me alone about. But through a couple
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: you know, times going in and then coming out seeing
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: Ken Hitmyer to get advice, it came out that he
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: wanted to talk about the Joey Armstrong case, which we
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: were the one that was the one we were concerned with,
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: and it sounded like from what he was saying that
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: he was the person we were looking for for that murder.
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: And then he also indicated that he had more or
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: to tell us and eventually sort of indicated it was
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: going to be about Carol's son, her daughter, and Sylvina.
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: But before he did that, he wanted he tried bartering
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: with us for child pornography. He was willing to confess
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: to all this, and all he wanted from us in
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: return was the ability to look at child pornography, which
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: ironically he didn't call it child pornography.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: He called it pictures of children.
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: And of course the FBI in the United States Attorney's
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: Office would never let that happen because.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: You can't commit a crime to solve a crime.
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: So we ended up moving Carrie up to a room
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: that we normally do the polygraphs in that had was
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: audio video monitoring, and we did an interview there. John
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: Bowles was there with me. It was a six hour
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: interview and by the time of the interview was over,
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: he had confessed to the murder of Joey Armstrong, along
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: with Carol's son.
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: Her daughter, and their friend, and it was pretty striking.
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: He also agreed that the next day he would take
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: us to retrieve evidence, which he did.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: But I learned.
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: Later on when the trial was happening for his death penalty,
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: and I was cross examined on the stand quite a
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: bit by the defense, and I learned during the cross
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: examination that at the time I was told that carry
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: stander was a witness, there was enough institutional knowledge to
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: arrest him for the probable cause of the murder.
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: So that was a little bit of a surprise to
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: the system.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: Man, that's a sense in six hours too well.
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: I do my interviews differently. It's not something that I learned.
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: It's kind of what I fell into to people, except
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: for the psychopaths. According to doctor Hare, I believe that
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: most people have value and have things in them that
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: make them valuable.
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: And I seek that value.
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: And so I believe, for instance, when you're talking to
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: a person that's committed.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: A crime, if they have a conscience, they.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: Know they've done something wrong, and if you give them
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: the ability to try and deal with it and in
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: turn to cause the pain of how others feel about
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: them to dissipate. A lot of times people will go
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: for that, and that's exactly what I do. So in
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: Carrie Stainer's case, I knew that there were times where
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: he became very emotional, crying over one of the victims,
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: and I knew that didn't really fit with us psychopaths.
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: So from learning more about him, I believe that his
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: quest in his crimes was to try and gain intimacy
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: with a woman, which he was unable to do.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: It sounds more like a either an anti social personality
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: disorder with or a sociopath, because he definitely had the
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: glibness about him, the way he toyed around with the wording,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: and how he kind of played with you a little
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: bit in the sense of Billy Jack and kind of
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: giving a little subtle hint at the end, and it
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: was interesting about those things.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: A friend of mine observed it, said that in his
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: crimes he had prepared for everything except me, because with
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: me comes an emotional.
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: Approach, and the way I do my interviews.
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: Is and in his case, what we did was, first
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: I have him go through and describe to me exactly
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: like a narrative of what he've done, like an outline,
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: and then using that narrative or outline, we go back again,
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: and this time I want him to describe to me
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: exactly what he sees, what he smells, what he senses,
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: describing it to me from his point of view.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: Then we go back again.
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: We do the same thing, but this time, because he's
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: the last person to see the victim, I want to
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: hear what the victim experience, what the victim felt. It's
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: very important to me personally to hear these things to
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: try and understand what happened. And then we go through
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: one more time, where this time I'm standing in the
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: room with him and he's describing to me what he's doing,
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: why he's doing it, how he's doing it. And then finally,
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: if the interview goes well, I ask him to write
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: a letter of apology to the victims. In his case,
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: he would only write a letter of apology to Julie's
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: sund the other confessions I've gotten, I get the letter
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: of apology, and the letter of apology will always show
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: something with me that I had missed in the interview
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: or didn't get. So the letters of apology or are
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: very important and so that's that's andy. It takes a
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: long time to do it, but at the end, I
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: think you know, as much as can be known is known.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: It's extremely clever, yeah, because you're tapping into the empathy
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: aspect of it when you're talking about the victim, which
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: of course we know psychopaths e very little of any
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: depending on where they score on that PCO. And that's
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: very clever. And the apology, you.
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: Know, Carlos, it's not meant to be clever. It's not
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: meant to be manipulative. It's just who I am and
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: what I do and what has developed within me through
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: the years. For instance, the letter of apology.
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: I learned that from Stewart when we did the Frankie
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: Procter case.
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: And I was in another case where we had a
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: little girl who fell into a rice silo. She had
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: her friends with her, and her friends were afraid to
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: say what happened. It was an accident, and so they
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: reported it as as an abduction, which it turned out
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: not to be. But one of the friends, when we
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: were interviewing the friend and asked him to do a
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: letter of apology, he drew himself hanging. And so we
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: learned from that that he was going to be a
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: risk to himself and needed help dealing with what he.
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: Had seen and experienced.
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: So I believe that everybody lives with a sense of value.
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: I think we all try and find value. We all
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: want to feel good about ourselves.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: And that's value.
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: I think bullies are successful when they can convince the
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: victim that the victim has no value, and the bully
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: takes that value from them, does it for the purpose
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: of showing others. But I believe that we are all
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: value motivated. And of course that doesn't apply to a psychopath.
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: But and that's how I do my interviews. My interviews
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: are not real successful with a person who's a psychopath
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: and has just killed someone and going out for lunch afterwards.
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: But sometimes you know, you never know. I mean, people
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: are unique and different, and I just know that what
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: I do, I've developed and I do it all the time.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: It might be great to maybe bring you back another
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: time to talk more about the interview process, because I
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: think a lot of agents would learn. I mean, we
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: have to be careful. I mean, you would know better
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: than I. We don't want to let the other guys
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: now the criminals know either, So I don't know how
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: that would work out.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: Now, I don't there's no secret sauce to what I do.
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: Carlos basically well. I said to Kerry Steener during his interview.
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: He was reflecting on himself that he was a bad person,
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: he had done bad things, and I said to.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: Him, what I believe.
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: I believe that many times good people do bad things.
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: It doesn't mean they're a bad person. It means they're
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: a person that did a bad thing, and we need
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: to understand it, to understand why that happened. One of
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: the frustrating things for me is because my confessions are
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: so successful, people will assign this manipulative value to me,
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: or this strategic value.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: It's not that at all.
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: All I try and do is find an emotional door
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: and go through it.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: And for the most part, I've been successful at doing that.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Thank goodness, you're on our side. That's the good thing again.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: The name of the book is called In the Name
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: of the Children and FBI Agent's Relentless Pursuit of the
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Nation's Worst Predators. The author is Jeffrey L. Reinick Rin
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: E K. I could keep you here all day, Unfortunately
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: running out of time, Okay, and it's too short. I
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: tell you, I definitely want to bring it back if
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: we can. And absolutely I think we have a lot
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: more to chat about about these cases. We didn't take
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: a deep dive, and maybe that's okay in regards to
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: how it impacted you're and your family, and we can
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: talk more about that. Sure, we do part two about that.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: That's fine.
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: One of the important things that I've learned, and I
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: learned it from my wife, is that the emotional impact
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: on me then had an impact on my family, and
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: that was something I never expected or anticipated, and it
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: disrupted us.
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: But I looked at my I.
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: I reached the point where I believed the dead children.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: Were calling me and waiting for me.
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: I started looking at things as if death were a
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: way of getting out out of the anxiety, and unfortunately,
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: I tried a couple of times to take my life.
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: But from doing that, I learned how selfish it is.
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: And I've been fortunate and that others that have felt
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: similarly have contacted me because of the book, and we've
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: been able to help them.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: That's great, that's great. That sounds like you're calling right there. Yeah,
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: And by the sound of it, it sounds like your
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: sons as well as your wife. No that you love
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: them very much. I do absolutely wonderful stuff. Thank you
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: so much again for being here.
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: Okay, Carlos, thanks for having me.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Expect another email O, folks, jeff Ryannick the book again
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: in the name of the Children and FBI agents relentless
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: pursuit of the nation's worst predators. I'm telling you, it's
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: a fabulous read.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: Folks.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Make sure to like, share, and subscribe.