Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / Why The Boks Are in Camp & Richie Mo'Unga Will Be on The Rivalry Tour + Champion's Cup Predictions!

Transcript

Why The Boks Are in Camp & Richie Mo'Unga Will Be on The Rivalry Tour + Champion's Cup Predictions! · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

0:00
Even we're stalking to loose, burdo,
0:03
lense to rinse, really mentioned.
0:05
And now, I mean, lense to sprang fantastic rugby.
0:08
But if there's one team that can beat them, it is order.
0:11
I believe that Super Rugby has been amazing for us,
0:15
but I think it's over.
0:16
I'm a part with three people in it,
0:18
every single Super Team's doing it.
0:20
So it's just like, oh yeah, okay, I've seen this 100 million times.
0:23
Why don't I look at my phone?
0:25
The rivalry took, and the Springgaw's already in camp already.
0:29
What's going on?
0:30
Yeah, that's like cheating.
0:31
How can you be in camp right now?
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What is that all about?
0:34
We're just aligning.
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It's just aligning in camps.
0:37
We're aligned already.
0:38
We're aligned already.
0:39
Richie Malonga is not available for the South African tour.
0:43
Just pull a hammy and just fake it,
0:45
and then Richie plays and he's available the next day.
0:47
And so I think he'll be on that tour, for sure.
0:50
You'll need him.
0:51
Right, welcome back, gentlemen.
0:55
Rivals is back.
0:56
You've aged quite a lot both of you.
0:58
Where's your hair, Ricardo?
1:00
I'll take you to Riringy before Riccata.
1:02
You should have gone for a haircut.
1:04
Like, you don't know how you had this one cut.
1:06
And that one.
1:07
So I was too.
1:08
So I don't know if I missed you guys or not.
1:11
I don't know if I missed you at all, at all, you know, but.
1:15
So I think you can go without us, Jake, come on.
1:17
You know that.
1:19
You'll be South African friend.
1:21
We're your only friend in South Africa.
1:23
But only South African friend.
1:25
I just finished the sentence that only friend.
1:29
Don't worry about South Africa.
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Full stop.
1:32
Just a sad week this week with the loss of Scott Hastings,
1:40
not only a great player, a great British line, great Scotsman,
1:44
but also one of the great characters and great men of rugby.
1:49
You were to play against him, Jake.
1:51
I was incredibly sad time.
1:55
I mean, Scott lost his wife to suicide about 18 months ago.
2:00
And he came down to New Zealand.
2:03
And we just had this amazing afternoon.
2:05
I mean, the courage he was showing on such a sad time.
2:10
You know, we had lunch and then Joe Stanley turned up.
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And it was just three guys who played rugby together.
2:19
And I didn't, you know, I saw him six months after that in Scotland.
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And I just didn't even know he was unwell.
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So the news really, really, really shook me as a beautiful man.
2:29
You know, just a beautiful man.
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And my thoughts go out to his family.
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And, you know, in Gavin, who I played with, you know,
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in New Zealand as well, they were really, really close.
2:39
It's just a really sad time and a great rugby man.
2:42
Yeah, I didn't play with him, but I've met him quite a few times at events.
2:48
And yeah, what a gentleman.
2:50
Spend some time with him over in Hong Kong with his servants as well at a few beers.
2:56
And I think like Jake, I said, a real rugby man, real gentleman.
3:02
And someone, I think, that always with there for Scotland.
3:08
I mean, if you talk about Scotland rugby players, two A-Sing brothers immediately come up.
3:14
So, yeah, good luck to his family.
3:17
And, yeah, I think you'll be remembered for a long time.
3:23
What was it like to play against Jake, okay?
3:26
He had great angles. He had really good angles, you know, as a midfieler.
3:30
I think back in those days, I was trying to study players who had really good angles,
3:35
especially late off the ball.
3:37
One of the things that Craig Green was really good at.
3:40
So, Scott, they'd changed their angle really late.
3:43
And, if you had a good tenor, depending on who's playing 12 or 13,
3:47
you had a good pass of the ball and the ball stayed at the same height.
3:50
You could change your angle late.
3:52
So, and then had a weak shoulder.
3:54
And he was always, he was always really good at that.
3:57
Tough, you know.
4:00
But also, I think what Victor said, you know, like always uncompromising and tough on the field,
4:06
but always had a smile on his dial afterwards.
4:09
And, you know, he loved the social side of it.
4:12
He loved people.
4:14
So, yeah, it's sad day, man.
4:17
Yeah, I think you can't really remember Scott without remembering having a beer with him after a game.
4:24
Like, that's probably the, you know, like most players you remember tries and stuff like that.
4:29
And obviously, he scored some amazing tries and did some amazing things.
4:32
But, I think both of you, the memory of having a beer with him is pretty strong.
4:37
Yeah, and that's rugby.
4:39
You know, Victor, it was probably just a little bit less when you came.
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But, like, when we toured with the All Blacks to Europe,
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we'd have three, you know, three dinners a week with the opposition.
4:51
And, you know, that sort of, the onset of professionalism sort of stopped that.
4:57
And you're still going to have a beer and the change, but we used to spend all night together.
5:00
You know, having, having a dinner.
5:02
And so, yeah, yeah.
5:04
Yeah, I think the only one I would ever had a beer with us, Ali Williams,
5:08
before test matches to two of us on a Wednesday evening.
5:11
So, we had it a little bit, but, yeah, didn't do the team.
5:15
Except for the barbarians, of course.
5:17
The barbarians is always great meeting up with a position on a Wednesday night,
5:21
having a few and having a lot of fun.
5:24
Just on comedies.
5:26
Let's repeat Victor, you're saying that,
5:28
Ali Williams, the Wednesday before the game.
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The Wednesday before the game.
5:33
Yes.
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In Auckland.
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How good.
5:38
How good.
5:39
That's how it should be people.
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That's how it should be.
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Cross that white line.
5:44
Not friends anymore, but as soon as you go about,
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go across the line in the games finished, that's what it's all about.
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And that's, you know, that's professional sport,
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making friendships for life.
5:53
And that's what's got, you know, really epitomised.
5:56
Yeah.
5:57
Now, the big game this weekend's the Champions Cup final.
6:01
Victor, what's going to happen?
6:03
Yeah.
6:04
I must say, I think at the moment, except, of course, for the New Zealand teams
6:09
to best club teams in the world, playing in the final.
6:14
I was really hoping for boss to get there with Juan Fraun coaching them.
6:19
Fortunately, I think Bordeaux is just in the plaza of their own.
6:23
But, I know Lens has been trying to win the double for a long time.
6:30
And this year, it's almost like they normally, they're the favourites in both competitions
6:34
and the URC and the Champions Cup.
6:37
And the URC, they started slow, they were mid-table most of the time.
6:41
Now, all of a sudden, they're going to have a home semi-final in the URC.
6:45
And even in the Champions Cup, everyone was talking to Lens, Bordeaux.
6:50
Lens didn't really mention it.
6:52
But you can just see, I mean, we saw in the six nations in the last few games
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how the confidence of all that Ireland players got up there again.
7:02
And now, I mean, Lens has been fantastic rugby.
7:06
I think this might be a year where they can do the double.
7:09
I think they're going to be very hard to beat in the URC.
7:12
But if there's one team that can beat them, it is Bordeaux.
7:16
I just love, I mean, Luca and Jalibé, probably the best 19 combination.
7:23
I've seen for a very long time.
7:25
And they control things, they see space, they're positive.
7:29
But they also got the balance right between kicking and playing.
7:34
So if I need to put money on it, I'll still go with Bordeaux.
7:38
Yeah, I mean, I think the contrast.
7:41
I know that I've been following Lens to just obviously trying to follow Rico as much as possible.
7:48
And I think Victor's right.
7:51
They got off to a slow start.
7:53
And I wonder if they've learned a little bit Victor from actually failing at the hearts level for them.
7:58
I mean, it's not really failure, is it?
8:00
They've been making the finals and trying to win both and winning one and not the other one.
8:04
But I wonder if they've learned about a little bit of the physical side
8:07
and just a little bit of that mental side.
8:09
You're just going to be really careful that it doesn't become a bogey
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that you start worrying about the result instead of executing for 80 minutes.
8:16
I'm a bit of a big level of plan.
8:20
You know, just because I agree with Victor, I think that the 19 combo
8:26
is that combination that they just play that French Flair and when they get it right.
8:30
And I hate to say this with Victor listening, but you know, they've got the forwards
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that can truck it up and be pretty physical.
8:36
And I think there's that balance.
8:38
When you get that balance and you got some big locks that are carrying the ball
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and doing some of that extra stuff, then they'll be hard to beat.
8:45
Desperation, how much is that coming to it?
8:48
I think if they see, I think if Lens to see it as an excitement
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and you know, rather than a weight, I'm not winning it.
8:55
It'll be good.
8:56
It'll be great.
8:57
The one thing Lens to do here is Jock Ninober.
9:00
JK, he knows how to take it slow.
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It doesn't matter if you start slow, lose a game in the pool stages
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as long as you win the trophy at the end.
9:09
So I think since Jock's been there, they won the U.R.C. last year
9:13
and maybe just with these influences here, they can win the double.
9:17
That's everyone.
9:18
And I mean, he's the fiends as well.
9:20
I think that Bordeaux attack will be interesting to see if they can shut them down
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and just take all the space away.
9:29
I'm just winning that contact though for me, Victor.
9:31
You know, if you want to get fast line speed very, very early against the French,
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the only way you can unsettle them and try and get the game is actually,
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they're going to have to be incredibly physical at that point of contact.
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So they can slow them up enough and then a fast line speed to put them under pressure.
9:47
But if they get on a roll, that's not going to be great.
9:50
But you know, you should just mention South African coaches and players
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in every chance you have.
9:56
Victor, you could just make sure you do that.
9:58
Hey, I must say, Rick, did you see the Instagram video I sent you guys
10:04
of the 94 games?
10:07
Yeah, it was amazing.
10:09
I thought you were having a crack at me.
10:11
I might just say Jacob.
10:13
Maybe I want to give you a compliment and I don't do that often.
10:17
So I've been watching school rugby in South Africa, like, you know, huge.
10:22
I mean, I was at a game Saturday between Office and Grey and there was over 20,000 people.
10:28
It was just back.
10:29
But I get so frustrated with, I think, I think, look, they in physical condition,
10:35
they gym, they've got pre-season, they've got video sessions, everything.
10:39
But they way overcoach it's for every little face.
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You've got the three fours of nine for the three fours of ten.
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And I just miss it.
10:47
And when I saw the clips of 94, just 15 guys in the line looking up,
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being flat, just playing what they see in front.
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I think we're missing something.
10:57
I think at some stage, and I feel a team like Bordeaux almost there,
11:02
where they just play head-up rugby.
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And once they get momentum, they just hop on the vantage line.
11:07
They forget about structure.
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And for me at the moment, if I look at schoolboy records in South Africa,
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I get frustrated with teams being overcoach and they all just in the same position
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and they just do what they told.
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Rather than just to look up, take the ball forward, just play hands.
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I just play the game.
11:26
So it was nice for me to see 94.
11:29
Are you guys played and was unbelievable rugby, I must say?
11:33
I thought you were sending me that to have a go at me,
11:35
because I got dropped from the all blacks after that game.
11:38
No, I didn't.
11:39
It was a beautiful record.
11:40
I really enjoyed it.
11:41
Yeah.
11:42
I mean, it was.
11:43
I watched it, Victor, and some days I watched some of those games
11:48
and how quick were the setups and the scrums, you know?
11:51
How quick were the lineouts?
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And we need to get back to that, because I agree with you.
11:55
I think the structure were overcoached.
11:58
I don't think the fan like it either.
12:00
I don't think the fan is.
12:02
I think the fan likes fatigue.
12:04
You know, we had fatigue in our game back then.
12:07
You know, we didn't have as many changes.
12:09
And I think fatigue is a really important part of the game.
12:12
But if you're going to change the beat all the time.
12:15
So yeah, it was.
12:16
I was really surprised actually as well.
12:19
It looked like it was just chaos.
12:22
And that's no organization.
12:24
And the boys are just throwing it around.
12:26
But I tell you what, shit, it was fun.
12:28
Yeah, but if you think about it in the beginning years,
12:32
when I played a lot of the time they wanted to drop me
12:35
because they said I'm playing to lose.
12:37
I'm standing in between the centers.
12:39
And that wasn't coach.
12:40
That's just you see space and you stay.
12:42
And you want to play with a ball.
12:44
Now, I won't get coached.
12:45
You need to run to a certain place.
12:47
There's fortune, certain channels.
12:49
There's nothing as natural as just, I don't know.
12:51
Just feel sometimes just overcoached.
12:53
Do you think there's the opportunity for a team to shake it up
12:57
and not do that?
12:58
You know, just like play what you say.
13:01
That's what I do like about Bordeaux.
13:05
So I think they structure.
13:07
I mean, so it's actually a two opposite.
13:09
I mean, if you look at lens, they're so structured.
13:12
And I mean, they do still do it well
13:14
because they take the ball to the line and these options.
13:17
And it's nice where Bordeaux is just about.
13:20
They use that big forwards.
13:21
When they get momentum, Jelliber takes it any place.
13:25
What he sees in front of him, yes.
13:27
Of course, I've got, I mean, that back three.
13:30
That's got a lot of base as well.
13:32
But they just play what they see.
13:34
And once I get to the 22, there's almost no structure.
13:37
It's just guys running hard.
13:39
They want the ball in their hands.
13:40
They're going for the caps and they play what they see.
13:42
So I think Bordeaux is pushing at probably the closest to what I've seen in 94.
13:48
You know, when I was, when I was way younger,
13:51
there was, you know, there was two philosophies in France.
13:56
You know, there was Pierre Vilpert.
13:58
And I was lucky enough to be coached by Vilpert when I played for Benetton.
14:02
And his philosophy was very much heads up.
14:05
But not only heads up, you know, late, late in your contact,
14:09
you would get to the outside shoulder and then understand and read
14:13
when you brought the two defenders together and pass it.
14:16
And I do think there is an element of French rugby
14:19
that's still coached like that.
14:21
So I think you still have to be organized.
14:24
But it's such a different philosophy around what all people are doing around you.
14:29
I don't know if you, if you have a look at that 94 game,
14:32
but we're all running off and you'll see guys that are running through this hole
14:36
and they don't get the ball.
14:38
But then there's also guys changing their angles.
14:40
You know, we're very, we're very natural now.
14:43
And we've got some depth because we're doing all that sort of stuff.
14:45
But we were moving, actually, way quicker.
14:49
Because if I don't get the ball and I've run that angle,
14:52
the next person has to move pretty quick to try and clean out.
14:55
I don't think, I don't think there was much, as much pressure on the ruck.
14:59
Defense.
15:00
You know, and defense.
15:02
Yes, pressure on the ball.
15:03
You know, those turnovers, they just weren't a massive part of the game
15:07
until they brought, until professionals and came in.
15:10
I thought, sure.
15:11
Well, let's get through to the thanks for your look back at years gone past.
15:15
But let's have a look now.
15:17
What about the USA? Who's going to win that?
15:20
Yeah, the US here is interesting.
15:22
I think the storm is at a chance of ending top of the league.
15:27
And then I think they had opportunity to win it.
15:32
But at this stage, I can't see links to not winning it.
15:38
I think the bulls might go upside, Glasgow over the in Scotland.
15:44
So my gut feel is it's going to be a links the loop.
15:49
They're still quarter final that needs to be played.
15:52
But I think we'll see a links the bulls final.
15:55
But I don't see the bulls beating links at home.
15:59
We're a full team.
16:01
Jake, I'm not going to ask you to pick a USC winner.
16:04
I will ask you about tribalism.
16:06
I know it's something that's really important to you.
16:08
And if you look at the French competition,
16:10
which is probably the best in the world at the moment, the top holding,
16:13
and teams like the USC and stuff like that,
16:15
big in their tribalism, how important do you feel that is to rugby?
16:20
Yeah, I think, especially New Zealand has a really big conversation to be had.
16:27
I think there's a couple of things that need to happen.
16:29
I think Victor's right.
16:30
I think we need to get back to an aerobic game.
16:33
I think we've become too much of an organized anaerobic game.
16:37
So you get bigger and bigger athletes.
16:39
And they are very, very sprint focused,
16:43
whereas I think fatigue needs to come back into the game.
16:46
So we need to do something about making change to the law so that we get back to that.
16:53
For me, we need to be fan centric.
16:56
So if you ask a lot of fans in New Zealand,
16:59
they're worried about the game because they're going to the game like Victor went the other day
17:04
and they're seeing all this organisation and all this drills.
17:07
And I made a pod with three people in it.
17:10
Every single super team is doing it.
17:12
Every single super team.
17:13
I know what it's like over here.
17:14
So we know there's going to be three guys and they're going to do a couple of rucks.
17:17
And so it's just like, oh yeah, okay, I've seen this 100 million times.
17:20
Why don't I look at my phone?
17:22
So I think, but to answer your question, Ricardo, because I didn't answer your question,
17:27
I believe that super rugby has been amazing for us for the last 30 years.
17:32
But I think it's over.
17:34
I think we need to redefine it.
17:37
We need to understand what it is.
17:38
And I believe we need to get back to tribalism and traditionalism.
17:41
If it was me, and let's just say that the five franchises, it's too late.
17:46
I would bring in another three New Zealand sites.
17:49
Right?
17:50
And then I would say to the Australians,
17:52
why don't you bring back Ranwick and Brothers?
17:54
And we play like an NRL, right?
17:57
We play Australian New Zealand.
17:59
And I do think Victor, we do need the equivalent of, you know, a Steinlecker Cup or a Heineken Cup or whatever,
18:06
whatever you, you know, European Cup, right?
18:09
But also the other thing that needs to change in rugby is we need to divide the money up differently, Ricardo.
18:14
So we need some television rights for the franchises so they can start being professional and surviving by themselves.
18:22
So it's time for change.
18:24
It's time to be encouraged.
18:25
And I think that tribalism and traditionalism is what great sports nations go on.
18:31
You meet someone from England.
18:33
Where do you come from?
18:34
I'm from Manchester.
18:35
Well, you're United or City, right?
18:37
You know, and if you're from the UK, you ask them, you're my team's Tottenham or, you know, if they're rugby, they're Harlequins.
18:44
So we need to take a real good look at rugby.
18:47
We had courage, you know, we had courage to go professional 30 years ago.
18:50
And we need to have courage now to go, you know, we've got a lot of competition in the Southern Hemisphere, Victor.
18:55
You know, I think Northern Hemisphere, I think France is going great.
18:58
I believe the English game is really buoyant, big crowds.
19:01
You know, but in the Southern Hemisphere, we're getting smaller crowds.
19:06
And I just think we need to have some courage to make some change.
19:09
And I think that is tribalism and tradition.
19:11
I mean, the Battle of Bridge, Ricardo, how good was that?
19:14
It was a putt.
19:15
But I mean, like everyone goes, they don't take a YouTube.
19:17
You talk about tribalism.
19:19
And I think that's what we get in South Africa at school where rugby at the moment.
19:22
I mean, all these big school where rugby got at least 20,000 sold out.
19:26
I mean, expect every weekend.
19:29
And it's every weekend.
19:30
There's three, four big darbys.
19:32
And there's just 20,000 people.
19:34
Then I mean, the Bulls play at Loftus right next to it.
19:37
They don't get 20,000 people.
19:39
That shouldn't be like that.
19:42
That is the fan telling you what they want.
19:44
That is the fan telling you what they want.
19:47
That is the fan telling you what they want.
19:49
They want tribalism and they want traditionism.
19:51
They want to go back to the old school.
19:53
It's just that Ricardo got expelled from our old school for climbing up.
19:57
So, yeah, we're talking rugby, mate.
20:01
But a team like the Bulls, surely people have a strong interbelonging to the Bulls.
20:07
You know, that people are from Northern Trenton.
20:10
Yeah, Ricardo, they do get it.
20:13
But they get it when they play the stormers.
20:15
Or they play the shots.
20:16
Or even when they play the big lancers, monsters, then they'll get it.
20:20
But when we play Zebrae, Benetton, or one of the Royal Scorer for whatever,
20:27
people don't just come to the games.
20:30
They rather sit at home.
20:31
They go to school games.
20:33
So, that part of the game, I think South Africans, hasn't called on to it.
20:39
And the same thing with Champions Cup.
20:41
I mean, for me, at the moment, that's the base competition to play.
20:45
If you want to be the base team, club team in the world, you need to win the Champions Cup.
20:51
But the South African fans hasn't won into it because we haven't been competitive.
20:57
We haven't been to a final.
20:59
So, yes, they're starting to get into this URC.
21:02
But the Champions Cup.
21:03
And especially because then it's URC, then it's Champions Cup.
21:07
And they don't understand it.
21:08
They used to, like in the old days, it was curry cup for four months.
21:11
Then we played Super Rackery from February until May.
21:14
Then it stays match-rackly, and it's the same competition.
21:17
So, some other fans hasn't called on to it.
21:20
Can I ask you a business question, Victor, because this is really...
21:25
This is something that I think is very, very important for the next step in our game.
21:28
I don't know what South Africa is like, but I believe from a financial situation,
21:33
we are still amateur across our competitions.
21:38
We get money from the All Blacks.
21:39
So, the money comes from the All Blacks.
21:41
They make all the money, and then they give it to a team like the Blues.
21:46
But what I believe we need to change is we need to create some revenue,
21:52
television revenue, or wherever the revenue is, and divide that up amongst the franchises.
21:57
So that they can least have earnings a year.
22:00
Because what happens is, you know, people said to me,
22:03
you know, Moana Pacifico is really sad.
22:06
Moana Pacifico is not possibly not going to survive.
22:09
And it is incredibly sad for Pacifica Rugby.
22:12
But from a business point of view, how can you survive?
22:14
Because they have to play the wage bill.
22:16
You know, the Blues don't have to play the wage bill.
22:18
And if they don't have a massive crowd against the Hollanders last week,
22:22
they could end up losing money.
22:24
So there's no way that you can make money.
22:26
How do you survive with all those teams in South Africa?
22:30
Look, how do you play the U.S.?
22:32
So you've got to travel around the world?
22:34
Why don't you broke?
22:35
I think what helped us a little bit was when we opened it up for private equity to come in.
22:41
I mean, for people that really love the game and want to give back to the game,
22:46
and they almost use it as a marketing tool for the big companies.
22:52
And I mean, that's the same that's happening in Japan at the moment.
22:55
So for us, having the teams be owned by private owners, I think it helped a lot,
23:03
the move to the URC.
23:05
Because what I don't understand in the beginning, I'd say when they said this,
23:08
but the guys are getting paid so much more in the UK than in South Africa.
23:13
But then I said, but we play the same competition, same TV rights, same sponsors.
23:19
I mean, you play on the same platform.
23:21
So why will people be paid more in the Northern hemisphere than in South Africa if we play in the same competition?
23:27
Because the income streams need to be the same.
23:30
So, and I mean, you can talk about the gate maybe,
23:33
but the gate is like 5 to 10% of your income.
23:36
TV rights and sponsors is 80% at least.
23:39
So, yeah, it's interesting, but I think going and getting private guys owning the clubs helped a lot.
23:48
And now, I mean, you can make decisions.
23:51
It's not amateurs running the gate.
23:53
Can I just jump in there?
23:55
Because at the end of the day, if you have a business,
23:59
then the people that you sell to tell you whether that business is successful or not.
24:03
So if you've got a product and people are buying it, then you're successful.
24:07
If people aren't buying it, then you go on to a new product or you shut down.
24:10
So if your fans are not showing up to a competition, then they're telling you they don't want that competition.
24:16
You know, or they're telling you, so the move at the moment is,
24:20
you know, you're telling me that so the African fans aren't showing up to Champions Cup games
24:24
because they don't understand the competition.
24:25
So now they talk about it.
24:27
The thing is, remember, our teams, they couldn't play in a home semi-finals,
24:33
they're not in the Champions Cup.
24:35
So the teams didn't send their base teams to go play in it.
24:38
So just kind of sending a B team the whole time.
24:41
So that's why the fans hasn't got into it.
24:44
I think if we start pushing our base teams, we're in a semi-final.
24:48
I mean, you play in this big line of cup final.
24:51
All of a sudden, the people who understand this is the ultimate competition.
24:54
They should they drop out because they're meeting at the moment to say,
24:57
maybe we should drop out of the Champions Cup.
25:00
I don't know what they want to do and why it is.
25:03
So I haven't seen.
25:04
I just saw earlier this morning that that might be an option.
25:07
But for me, it will be sad.
25:10
At least we get something we maybe play four or five games against New Zealand teams
25:16
or something.
25:17
But I think for us, not playing up.
25:20
You want to go test yourself against those top three teams and the UK teams.
25:25
So to be said, if we're not there and we don't play New Zealand thing.
25:30
Are you big enough to do both?
25:32
Are you big enough to come back into Super Rugby with maybe three sides
25:37
and you need to do both?
25:38
Or is there enough money in South Africa?
25:40
What about this, Jacob?
25:41
You can just listen to what you're saying, Victor.
25:43
What about you playing the U.S.C.?
25:45
Jacob, you play your Super Rugby.
25:47
But then you have a either-can-cut type event where South Africa and New Zealand
25:51
or the top four teams from Super play rather than playing in the Champions Cup.
25:56
That's what I've been pushing for 10 years, Ricardo.
25:58
You just haven't been listening to me because we've got to start creating.
26:03
You said it before, Ricardo.
26:05
You were running also in New York, rugby, right?
26:08
Victor doesn't matter how wealthy your owner is.
26:11
He's got to get returned.
26:13
They're wealthy businesses because they understand business.
26:15
It's actually a donation, right?
26:17
So for me, Ricardo, we have to try and create something where the Super sides
26:22
actually do the television deal.
26:25
So the Zealand rugby can do their $100 million sky deal for all the test matches.
26:30
But then the Super sides go away and they say there's 10 of us or 12 of us.
26:36
And here's the competition.
26:38
And there's $60 million in the pool and we're all getting $5 million each.
26:43
And then actually a private investor because that's what they do in football and especially in Italy.
26:49
If you're earning $36 million in revenue when you're in the CDR,
26:55
then you know that you can spend that per year on players or whatever.
26:59
So we just need to re-look at the model with 30 years, with 30 years old and professionalism.
27:04
And I think we need to have some change.
27:06
I still think the French got it right.
27:10
I mean, it's privately earned this promotion relegation.
27:13
I've seen it in South Africa.
27:15
We've seen so many times a private guy coming in.
27:18
But I mean, if you're not at one of the four big teams in South Africa,
27:22
then you can't go anywhere.
27:24
I mean, we were part of it in too long.
27:27
We were second division.
27:29
I got a new owner that wanted to do something for the town.
27:33
He threw a lot of money into it, got a lot of great players around the world.
27:37
We went up to first division, won the Heinerken Cup three times.
27:42
So I mean, there's opportunity to grow and to grow a business.
27:45
We in South Africa and I think in New Zealand, it's the same.
27:49
They say you buy one of the smaller teams and you want to invest and you want to run a business day.
27:53
You can't do it because you can't get to the top competition.
27:56
So that's still a problem for me.
27:59
I still believe in that promotion relegation.
28:02
I love promotion relegation because it actually makes the season interesting.
28:06
People, look at the UK, West Ham supporters are absolutely shooting themselves.
28:12
And it's probably happened already.
28:14
But they're going to go down.
28:15
I haven't followed it in the last week or so.
28:17
But people are panicking.
28:18
Promotion relegation.
28:19
I agree with that.
28:20
What you do in Italy, mate, is you buy a third division soccer team.
28:23
It's going to cost you two and a half million dollars out of your pocket.
28:26
You get nothing.
28:27
If you get into the B division, you then get five million dollars in television rights.
28:32
And if you want to go up to the first division, you get 36 million in television rights.
28:36
So some business people, I'm going to do that.
28:38
And they did exactly what they did in too long, you know.
28:41
But you've got to have a return, man.
28:43
These people are businessmen.
28:44
Hey.
28:46
I tell you what, if you're a smart businessman, I wouldn't invest in a rugby team.
28:51
But what if there was what if there was the possibility of making 36 million dollars
28:55
or let's just keep it rugby, right?
28:57
Let's just say, OK, OK, Ricardo, you're still running the New York side.
29:02
And we're going to invite you down into this new super rugby competition.
29:06
New York's going to play with four African sides, four New Zealand sides, a Fiji, a Sama on side.
29:12
And we're going to divvy up 60 million bucks.
29:15
And you're going to get five.
29:16
And then you go, OK, well, I might get an investor that goes, well, OK, I might leverage that to 20 million
29:22
and buy a whole lot of good players.
29:23
And then you might get an owner that says, no, Ricardo, I need you to build a team on five million dollars.
29:28
And then you'll have to create a great game.
29:30
You're going to do two things.
29:32
One is you've got to convince New Zealand Rugby or South African Rugby to give up control,
29:36
which is something they don't like doing.
29:38
And the players' association to step back and let the individual owners drive it.
29:44
And secondly, you've got to say to the owners, you might lose money.
29:48
You might not make money.
29:49
You might lose money for 20 years.
29:52
I agreed with everything you said except for the last point, Ricardo,
29:57
because every single businessman at that level knows exactly what they're getting in for.
30:02
And they know exactly how long they're going to lose money for.
30:05
And if their business changes, they'll sell it.
30:08
But if they've got a return, then at least they're making business decisions.
30:13
So I agree with the first two.
30:15
I don't agree with the last.
30:17
These people know what they're getting in for.
30:19
I'm in the mood to do it for charity, Ricardo.
30:20
So I'm going to go, OK, I'm getting fired back and I'm going to spend 10 and that's OK,
30:24
because I know I'm a billionaire.
30:26
I think they'll do it if they feel that they can increase the value of the team
30:30
and the competition.
30:31
And the competition's really important because if the competition becomes more valuable,
30:35
TV rights become more valuable.
30:37
And that's the challenge.
30:39
And you also think about some of the greatest things.
30:43
And I always say this about Adidas.
30:45
I'll always be forever grateful for Adidas when they took over our sponsorship Victor in New Zealand
30:51
because I think they paid $180 million over five years.
30:54
But they spent about $100 million on leverage.
30:58
And what does that mean?
30:59
That means Daniel Carter became one of the most famous rugby players in the world
31:03
because he was on a bus stand in the south of France.
31:07
So also people need to spend leverage money to make the game more famous
31:12
and get people bums on speech.
31:14
Can you just check your door, Jacob?
31:15
I think your new pair of Adidas shoes have just arrived.
31:19
Let's get on to the rivalry tour because that's what we're all looking forward to.
31:25
And the spring roster already in camp already.
31:28
What's going on?
31:29
That's like cheating.
31:30
How can you be in camp right now?
31:32
What is that all about?
31:33
Our guys are still playing.
31:34
How you can call a camp, man?
31:35
That's like wrong, Victor.
31:37
Can you ring Russie and say?
31:38
Is this a lineman stuff?
31:39
Which is a lineman?
31:40
Is this a lineman camp?
31:41
Getting to know each other?
31:44
What's in the lineman camp?
31:48
It's just a lineman camp.
31:51
So not a lot of training.
31:53
Just explaining where they need to be.
31:55
What Russie expect of them.
31:57
How we want to play what he's going to do the year.
32:00
You need to plan, guys.
32:02
You don't plan your failures.
32:04
So maybe you can learn something.
32:07
Yeah.
32:08
Well, we're pretty alert.
32:09
A little bit behind, Jake, because your coach.
32:11
He's been in Japan for most of the time.
32:14
You know, he did.
32:15
He was home last week actually, Ricardo.
32:17
I know there's a lot of good vibes coming out, mate.
32:20
Can't say too much.
32:21
You know, because Victor's here.
32:23
But we're aligned already.
32:24
We're aligned already.
32:25
Good to hear him.
32:26
Yeah.
32:27
You know, I think he might give you one more.
32:29
Amazing announcement.
32:30
Some amazing announcement, Ricardo.
32:32
And Victor, you know,
32:34
Sir Graham Henry coming back into the fold
32:36
as the external selector, I think, as genius.
32:39
You know, Ted, as I was Ted,
32:42
and I worked together at the Blues
32:44
and his analytical brain.
32:46
And like he is just still a student of the game.
32:50
Like he will watch, like Dave Rene said.
32:54
Dave said, you know, I rang, sort of, Graham.
32:58
You know, Sir Graham to talk to him about the game.
33:00
He said, I want to talk to you about 60 players.
33:02
You know, so that, and I think, you know,
33:06
I think that was a really, really smart move.
33:09
So everyone's, you know, I know it's calm before the storm.
33:13
But everyone's been really happy with, you know,
33:15
Dave and the communication that's coming out and the alignment
33:19
and like Victor said and just understanding.
33:21
He hasn't had the players yet though.
33:23
But, you know, I think it's,
33:25
everyone's pretty positive down here.
33:27
Don Trickle coming back, high performance.
33:29
You know, that guy's a genius.
33:31
I think that's really important as well.
33:33
So there's been some really good moves made.
33:35
Yeah, some great stuff.
33:37
But also news that Richie Moonga
33:40
is not available for the South African tour.
33:43
Unless, you know, he plays and then there's an injury
33:46
he gets called in later.
33:48
Well, that's going to happen, mate.
33:50
He's going to play for his club like Saturday
33:52
and he'll be in Africa.
33:54
Don't even think about it.
33:56
So I'll get off the plane and come again.
33:58
Hit the leg with a stack and say you were down.
34:00
No, no, no, someone's just like,
34:02
what would happen back in the old days
34:04
and say, okay, just pull a hammy,
34:06
like, because you always did and just fake it
34:08
when Richie plays and he's available the next day.
34:10
Like, why bother?
34:11
I mean, it's like how many players are coming over there?
34:14
It's 45.
34:15
So there will be an injury.
34:16
And I mean, we saw it in the previous World Cup.
34:18
Malcolm Marks getting into the Android Borough it's coming.
34:21
So I think we can maybe see the same thing.
34:24
What's that all about?
34:26
That was the weirdest thing.
34:28
Yeah.
34:29
And look, I understand.
34:31
And also Victor, we have a new CEO,
34:33
who Steve Lancaster is a really good, really good man.
34:37
But I think we've now become a board led organization
34:41
and I think Lancs will be amazing.
34:43
Steady Han, good guy knows the business,
34:45
knows high performance, knows the community game.
34:48
So I think he'll be really good in that role.
34:50
And he came on television the other night and said,
34:53
you know, we want to stick to the rules.
34:55
And, you know, I think in this case,
34:59
no one would give a toss if you bent the rule.
35:01
And so I think he'll be on that to a foreshore.
35:05
You'll need him.
35:07
Any surprises in the squad at the alignment camp, you know.
35:12
Now there's 400 in South Africa.
35:15
Yeah.
35:16
We're alive.
35:17
We don't need an alignment camp.
35:18
Almost every plane South Africa is there.
35:21
So we don't know what's happening,
35:23
but I think a few.
35:25
I thought you had the alignment camp on London, mate,
35:27
because that's where most of your players are.
35:29
We get them from all over.
35:31
Japan.
35:32
Japan.
35:33
That's where everyone is.
35:35
I think the one guy that I really am happy to see this,
35:39
Ambrose B, he's been playing really well for the Bulls.
35:42
And somehow, on the previous alignment camps,
35:44
he hasn't been invited.
35:46
So he's in there.
35:48
And then Taijai, if I may, from Northampton, 145 kgs,
35:54
got called up.
35:56
We'd ever do, actually, to France as a youngster,
35:59
went up to about 170 kgs at some stage,
36:02
playing, of course, that's from, say.
36:05
But I saw him play as a youngster,
36:07
and at school boy level, he was just unbelievable.
36:10
I mean, he's big, but he's fast.
36:12
He's got great skills.
36:14
And I think, if you think of garlic,
36:16
at his name on his out for the year,
36:18
someone like him can maybe come in, play off the bench,
36:23
won't be a lot in the line-ups.
36:25
You will be the guy running it up in the midfield.
36:28
And he's got great skills,
36:30
offloading and getting through those stackles.
36:33
So I think he might just be the big surprise
36:36
that Dressie brings in this year.
36:38
Ricardo, that's what happened to you.
36:40
And you toured France during the World Cup.
36:42
Are you in from a 110 to 130 kgs, didn't you?
36:45
Yeah, never went back.
36:47
Yeah.
36:50
Some big notes.
36:52
Oh, well, well, do that to you.
36:54
Lay off me a little bit.
36:56
Some big notes.
36:57
And this thing from that alignment camp.
36:59
Are they unaligned?
37:02
From the alignment camp.
37:04
Yeah.
37:05
Or will he root the roof?
37:07
And the pumbian?
37:09
Yeah, I think, I mean, there's a few guys that's getting
37:13
a bit older.
37:15
There's young new guys coming through.
37:18
As well.
37:19
I think the guy like the Lille Rue, if he gets a chance,
37:22
I mean, he knows exactly how they want to play,
37:25
what they want to do.
37:27
But sometimes, I think that's one thing Russia is really good at,
37:30
is if he feels it's time to move on,
37:32
get someone new in, he will use them,
37:35
but he doesn't say that guy won't come back
37:37
and maybe if needed,
37:39
get pulled, put right back into the position.
37:44
So, yeah, I think it's for new guys coming through,
37:47
wanting to see how things are done.
37:50
So, yeah, I'm pretty happy with the squad that he's picked.
37:54
Well, probably good time to wrap it up there.
37:57
Welcome back, gentlemen.
37:58
And what's your pick, first of all,
38:00
so you're going Bordeaux Victor?
38:03
Yeah, they're free again for Bordeaux.
38:07
I think it's going to be tight,
38:09
but I think Bordeaux will pull it through.
38:13
Yeah, I don't know, just because you're going
38:15
the opposite of what Bordeaux said.
38:17
Because Jock's there, he's just going for him
38:20
to be Jock, he's going for him.
38:22
No, no, no, no, no, Victor, it's because Rico's there,
38:26
and I really want Rico to have him.
38:28
And being coached by Jock, that's why he's playing so much better.
38:31
Yeah, he's going to bring all those secrets back home
38:33
for our alignment.
38:35
Does anyone want to know what I think?
38:37
No.
38:39
Okay, I'm going to need that.
38:42
But you're going to tell us anywhere.
38:44
You're going to tell us anywhere.
38:46
I'm going Lienster.
38:47
I'll see that three times.
38:49
Why?
38:51
Just because I like them.
38:54
Okay.
38:56
I just think, I really think,
38:58
although we talk about 19 and outside bags of Bordeaux,
39:02
I think the back, the scrum might put Lienster on the pressure.
39:08
I think what JK said before, actually,
39:11
the one thing he said during this whole show that made sense was,
39:14
you know, when you've been as close as Lienster have for as long,
39:19
I just think, you know, you can go two ways.
39:22
One is you can just go,
39:24
it's just, you know, I just lose all confidence
39:26
when the pressure time comes.
39:28
But I just think that this is the year that they use all that hurt
39:31
to get over the line.
39:33
That's my thing.
39:34
This is a one year they don't go into as favorites.
39:38
I mean, the previous three, four years,
39:40
they were always going in as big favorites this year they don't.
39:44
Can I just say that before we finish Ricotta,
39:48
I'm pretty offended.
39:50
Good.
39:51
That's my intention.
39:53
Why haven't you spoke super rugby?
39:56
I was just letting you off because the hurricane's beat the blues.
39:59
No, the blues have been pretty average the last couple of weeks.
40:01
They seem to have lost their way away.
40:03
You know, I think the hurricanes are outstanding this year, Victor,
40:06
like you talk about defense.
40:07
They are actually brutal and defense.
40:09
They're getting off the line and really smacking people.
40:12
Really disappointed.
40:14
See, Tangitou from Highlanders who's had an unbelievable season
40:17
did his ACL.
40:19
So that was sad because I thought it was one of the breakout players.
40:23
So I think there's some good signs from the hurricanes.
40:26
The blues have been a little bit off in the last few weeks.
40:29
But you know, I think the most important thing is that we
40:33
peak for the finals, Ricotta.
40:35
Peak for the finals.
40:37
Take it.
40:38
What do you think of?
40:39
What do you think of Horn and Dean's playing for the hurricanes?
40:42
I think he's one of the best five rocks in the world at the moment.
40:45
Worked with him in Japan.
40:47
And he's just unbelievable player.
40:49
And he's been involved for it.
40:51
Yeah, we can't pick him.
40:52
Can we make because he's played for Japan?
40:55
I just like locks that really know how to be locks.
41:02
That makes sense from a winger.
41:04
You know, he works hard.
41:06
He'll carry the ball if you want.
41:08
He's always there to clean out.
41:10
Reads the line out well.
41:11
Has a crack.
41:12
I don't know whether that's part of the plan, but he'll have a crack defensively
41:16
in the line out, which is a lot.
41:17
So yeah, I mean, those type of players, those type of players are
41:20
priceless for me.
41:22
But he's, but he can't play for us because he's played for you in Japan.
41:25
Although it is, it is a band made.
41:27
It's pulled you up because you know, it has been banned.
41:30
I'm sorry.
41:31
I was supposed to have a few meetings in a restart.
41:34
So one day, if he's allowed to be in the meeting.
41:38
And what about, and you talked about the hurricanes Ruben love at 10, JK?
41:44
Yeah, well, I think, you know, I think these hybrid players.
41:48
So I was interested.
41:50
You haven't spoken about.
41:52
Take everything from South Africa.
41:54
Do you also have hybrid players now?
41:56
May we invent a hybrid player in the world?
41:58
I've been playing.
42:00
But honestly, I was, I was really cynical a few years ago, Victor,
42:04
when actually Rushy started doing it.
42:06
But what Lester, what Lester for our Nuku is done has been unbelievable.
42:11
And I was talking to Wayne Smith, we're having a, having a couple of beers down at
42:15
here because he's a Wahesha now, which is, you know, where I live in the summer, Victor.
42:20
And, you know, he was looking for hybrid players.
42:24
And so this, this sort of player that can play 10 and 15.
42:27
I think it's really, really important for the South African tour.
42:30
The only thing I would say about 10 is I think it takes a little bit longer than it used to in the past
42:35
to really run a football team.
42:37
And I think that gets back to you what you said before, Victor.
42:40
I mean, it's so organized now.
42:42
So 250 moves probably.
42:44
And you've got to know that it's going to be this and that and this and that.
42:46
So it's way more complicated in what's in front of you, you know.
42:50
But I think it's great, I think it's good that he's playing.
42:54
You know, one of the saddest things for me last year that I felt sorry for him for
42:59
in that northern tours.
43:00
He just didn't get a crack until that, you know, until that Welsh game.
43:04
And then, and then he actually scored a cup of trives.
43:07
So this is a historic show.
43:09
And we've been like 45 minutes.
43:11
And Victor hasn't mentioned that South Africa won the World Cup full times.
43:16
So, you know, there's been a World Cup winning coach.
43:20
My job leads to winning the championship.
43:23
So every single, he's mentioned every single South African player and coach overseas.
43:30
And he's in his align all the all the success of all the people in the finals with South African people.
43:36
And just make sure you see Paul Sadi, Carlos Sadi attacks all who they were as well.
43:41
You might win again for them as well with his scrubs.
43:44
Yeah.
43:45
So he will now.
43:46
So next time we see Victor, if they win, he'll be saying that South Africa won the Cup.
43:52
Which is fine.
43:53
Doesn't matter which one.
43:54
Are there other Carlos Sadi or Joffney Nobles?
43:57
South Africa's already won the Champions Cup.
43:59
Well done.
44:00
Thank you.
44:06
You