Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 367: Making Money Self Distributing Your Indie Film with Naomi McDougall Jones
Transcript
- You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three sixty seven. The more that you take distribution into your own hands, the better chance you will have to actually making any money at all. Mongo Wilder broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are and the goals of the project you are, So we actually break it down by three categories, micro budget, indie film, market and studio film. There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading temp pole movies when your movie is gonna be done for one hundred thousand dollars, and we wanted to focus on that At Bulletproof Script Coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, WME, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot com. Now, Today Guys is an episode. It is a crossover event with Film Entrepreneurs podcast because this is arguably one of the more important podcasts I've done in quite some time. This guest is going to hopefully save a lot of filmmakers a lot of pain. Today's guest is Naomi mcdo jones, and she is one of the filmmakers behind the independent film Bite Me, which is a subversive romantic comedy about real life vampires and the irs agent that audits them. Now, what's incredible about this story is what they did and how they went about trying to make their half a million dollar budget back. Now, they have no bankable stars in the movie, so there was gonna be a little bit of an upheld battle to be able to recoup that money. And then when they went down the road of trying to find a distributor, they were just so disheartened by the horror stories and how the system is literally rigged with most distributors, not all, but most distributors, and that whole model, that whole legacy model of traditional distribution is kind of set up to screw the filmmaker. I hate to say it, but it's the truth. There are really really good distributors out there, like Indie Rights, which I highly highly recommend, and there's a couple other ones, but generally speaking, every distribution company I've dealt with, other than a handful, have been just horrible, horrible, horrible horrible. And Naomi really wanted to kind of do something interesting, so they literally went on a tour around the country and they called it the Joyful Vampire Tour of America, where they rented an RV, put some fangs on it, and went around to city after city like a carnival and showed their films and sold their wares, sold their ancillary products, made money with their movie and were in complete control of the revenue coming in and their bravery of what they were trying to do, and this entire crazy journey's documented in this must see, I repeat, must see documentary series called The Joyful Vampire Tour of America, where they literally, as if I may quote her, they pull their pants down and show the good, the bad, and the ugly of everything. They're completely transparent with all of their numbers. If they screw up, they let you know. If they make money, they let you know what they could have done better, what could they have done worse. They interview other other filmmakers and their processes in the series. It is an amazing must see series for anybody wanting to make a movie in today's world, and specifically if you're going to try to self distribute your film. A lot of the things that we talk about in distribution, you know, even six months ago, eight months ago, a year ago, is obsolete. Now everything changes so rapidly. You know why, because the industry is trying to figure it out. Everything is changing so quickly, the consumer's changing so quickly. Everything is changing so quickly. We got to try to figure out ways for independent filmmakers to actually make money. And Naomi was wonderful. She's a wonderful gues She completely is transparent with everything and drops knowledge bomb after knowledge bomb after knowledge bomb, with also a few inspiration bombs as well. So I'm not gonna talk anymore without any further ado. Please enjoy my conversation with Naomi McDougall Jones. I'd like to welcome the show, Naomi McDougall Jones. How you doing. Thank I'm great. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for being on the show. I greatly appreciate it. You guys reached out to me and I heard about your craziness and I said, I need to. I mean, you're insane and I love it. And anytime I meet insane filmmakers who are good in sand because there's crazy insane, which is just like I've lost my mind. I'm an egomaniac, and we've met those filmmakers. Yes, but you're a good kind of insane, something ambitious. You have audacity. I love that that you had an audacity. I'm like, we're going to do this watch So I felt it was a perfect story for film entrepreneur. And because you are a film entrepreneur with out question you are a definition of film entrepreneurship without questions. So before we get going, I want to know tell me a little bit about your film, Bite Me and how it came to life, because we're going to talk a lot about this film. Sure. So Bite Me is my second feature film. I wrote it, I was one of the producers, and I star in it. And it is a subversive comedy about a real life vampire. I r s agent who audits her. Now, when you say real life vampire is like someone who identifies as a vampire. Yes, so there is a real global community of people who identify as vampires in real life. Well, you say, of course, but not everybody knows that. I mean, I mean, I'm hit, You're very I'm very hip that way. Yes, because when you say vampires like, because people might think is like, is this like interview with a vampire? I'm like, no, this is like, these are people who are real, who are in the lore. I mean, I had a lot of goth friends in high school, so I am aware of this. So so some portion of that community believes that they need to drink human blood to stay healthy, and they do through donors. So the genesis of the film was wanting to work to write a really great romantic comedy. I love romantic comedies. I'm really sad that the genre has taken such a horrible nose time ever since Nora Efron left us. Yeah, she was so wonderful the early two thousands. It's just been terrible. It's been pretty so anyway. So I sort of figure, like, how do you how do you make something smart and edgy and well written and feminist and just like a well made movie that is also romantic comedy. And I found out about this vampire community, and those two ideas kind of smashed together, and well, well, I mean I heard the story when I saw the trailer, I'm like, well, this is genius. Like, and the reason there's the irs agent is is because they are trying to identify as a nonprofit because of their religion. Well, how is that work? So they so vampires would tell you that that vampiresm is not a religion, it's it's a fact of their lives. Sure, it's an identity. But the vampires in the film have registered as a church basically for tax reasons, right, possibly to scam the government slightly what So they get audited at the beginning of the film, and that sort of sets the whole story in motion. I mean, seriously, that just alone is hilarious. I mean just that concept is it's a very high concept film, which is great. Now, the other thing that I found interesting about this is that you guys, you guys raised a lot of money for this film. I mean, I mean, I know it's considered in the in the world of studios a low budget. You know, argue, some of them won't even argue to say it's a micro budget. I wouldn't call this a micro budget, but it's a low budget film. The budget, from what I've read, is half a million correct, that's right, is a lot of money for a for a romantic comedy with no marketable quote unquote actors in it. So how, first of all, how did you raise the money for this kind of project? And then we'll talk about how we're going to get the money back. Yeah. Well, so I had made my first feature film, Imagine I'm Beautiful, on a true micro budget scale, for eighty thousand dollars, and that we had crowdfunded most of that and then kind of cobbled the rest of it together through some small investments, and then you know, we made the film and it won a bunch of awards on the festival circuit. That film actually even got a traditional theatrical distribution deal. But we put it like and there are some there are things I love about true micro budget filmmaking, but we wanted a bigger We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Yeah, you want to eat, I get it. You want some time to play pay ourselves and people and things like that, Bigger toys to play with, got it? Yeah? So we and we felt like having demonstrated that we could do that with eighty thousand, that we could go out and raise the half a million, which we did over a three year period. It took us three years to raise the money, yeah, which is as us from the face you're making, you know, it's brutal, well, yeah, because how many how many filmmakers do you know are still looking for that money to drop any day now that investor is going to drop that money. And you look and you look at the clock and you're like, oh wow, five years have gone, oh totally, And and it's brutal because during that period of time, there's no guarantee that it will work, right because you also know that right there're the filmmakers were like twenty years into this and never have found the money week a day before, a day before the money which will go away. Yeah right, So so it's it's just sort of like this sheer will power of yourself and your team to keep going and the belief that this will eventually work out. So we did raise We use the New York tax credit. So we took out a loan against the twenty five percent New York tax credit towards financing the movie, and the other seventy five percent we raised through equity investments from private investors. We raised it from around twenty investors, so it was it was a matter of cobbling together smaller investment amounts. Okay, so that makes that makes sense, And the tax credits are a huge deal especially. I had another New York filmmaker on the other day and they were saying, I hear New York is a wonderful place to shoot. I hear they're just super open, and you know, and now I think it's like three hundred bucks. He told me that for all permits, like you could shoot. Yeah, I know, everyone assumes it'll be really everyone always thinks it's really expensive to shoot outside in New York, and it's actually the cheapest place you can shoot has the most production value. Yeah, they're really open because everyone here at LA I mean you even you can't you need a permit to shoot in your house? What you I mean? Technically you need a permit to shoot in the house if someone calls you, like if you're shooting a little movie in your house, and if some if the neighbor doesn't like it and calls the cops, you will be ticketed and you will have to go to court and pay a fine. Oh, it's because because we're in La So that's why you assume all big cities are like that, and they're not la is LA's murders to all. The funny thing, So we have a scene that takes place in Central Park, and what we learned about Central Park is that you don't have to pay extra for the permit. However, you do have to convince the people in charge to let you shoot in Central Park. And and they've segmented Central Park into a series of tiny little fyctoms. So even if you're shooting in a really area, you have to go convince like five different people to let you shoot on their patch of Central Park. It's just basically like like Lords Lords of the manner if you will, like little like fiefdoms, like littlefs, like you were saying, little lords that you have to convince, Oh so slow and can we shoot on your grass? It's free, but we just like you know, yeah yeah, but we need your blessing, so please. Wow, that's that's super weird. That's hilarious. That's actually hilarious. Okay, so you're shooting in New York. You're shooting this movie. Now? Did I have to ask you a question? Did you ever consider trying to cast a more marketable name, or a more marketable traditionally markable name in some sort of parts which would make it easier to sell a film of this budget? Learne, I'm just curious. Did I mean? I think, realistically, for half a million dollars, unless you're friends with that person, it's it's virtually impossible to get bigger actors than we got. I think we certainly had ambitions to do that. And I feel like that you always hear these stories of like people getting so and so for this tiny film, and I feel like underneath those stories, they're almost always a relationship or related to those people before because because the problem, of course is not the actors. It's the agents and so like, of course we put offers out to bigger people, but I'm almost certain that their agents never gave it to them, because why they don't want Daniel Radcliffe doing this film when Marvel might call at any moment and pay them seventeen times the cost, right, and if and if you're offering him, let's say fifty thousand dollars for a day, that the agent's going to pull in a little bit of money of off that they rather pull in off the millions and stuff, right, And that's something and that's something that independent filmmakers, even listening to this or watching this are are not aware of this. Like agents, there's so many guards or a gate ca to some of these actors. So like with my first film, I had an insane cast, but they were all friends of ours, and they were all like, they're like, all come out, I'm in la I'll come out for the day. And these are people have been in big, huge movies and and but they were all friends. So it really does help. It makes all the difference because so I'll tell you a really crazy story. So our cast, as we'll probably talk about in a moment, are not like a list actors, but are named to actors in a sense like they've been on stone their faces. So one of those actors we were I had actually written the part in the film specifically for and we reached out to her. We through our casting director. We submitted an offer to her agent, and I had actually written a personal letter explaining this that with the offer, and we hadn't heard anything, and I was like, this agent is not has not given her this offer. I just had this feeling. And so we had a mutual friend, and I asked the friend if she would just be willing to forward my letter to this actress just to make sure she'd gotten it. And within about half an hour, this actress called me and was like, of course I want to do this movie. Nobody's ever written a part for me before, like sane, and her agent had not given her the offer, and she had to call her agent and be like, hey, what's up, what is going on? And they were like oh, oh yeah, sorry, sorry, and then they were incredibly obstructionist, like the whole time trying to make a deal with her. Oh oh absolutely. There's there's two quick quick acting stories. One the same thing happened Quentin Tarantino when he was doing pulp fiction, submitted for James Woods and James Wood's agent didn't give it to him. And then after the movie came out, James Woods, we met Quintin and quit like, yeah, I sent it to you, like and his agent never gave it to him and he was pissed. Sure, And there was another story of some filmmakers who this great story. They actually went to a film festival and Ed Harris was speaking. After the talk, they bum rushed the stage, jumped on the stage and they had a DVD player portable d just a while ago DVD player and showed them showed him the trailer for his for their film that they they were like like, you know, like a sizzle reel that they had shot, and they literally went into the back. He's like, come follow me, and he went into the back alley to smoke. And they told him the whole story that I want you to play the part because you're you would be playing our alcoholic follow father and all this, and and Harris said, yeah, I'll do it. And I mean and Ed Harris, if you remember, doesn't do independent films, like he's one of those actors he's never did it, but he said he was going to do it. Everyone at CIA was us trying a torpedo that left and right, and it was Ed that said, sure, I'm doing this, guy, so make it happen. So, unless you're able to get direct access to some of these actors, it's it's extremely difficult. It's impossible, well because the agents are directly disincentivized from allowing that to happen. Did you know if you heard about Bill Murray's hotline? No? Okay, please please please. So Bill Murray does not have an agent and refuses to have an agent for this reason. So Bill Murray has a hotline number that you can call that anybody can call and leave a message pitching their project and then then from there. So so I read this story once written by a filmmaker who had eventually gotten Bill Murray to be in his movie this way, and he said, so he called the hotline and he left a message with the pitch, and then like three months later, it gets a call from Bill Murray being like, can you meet me in LA for lunch tomorrow? And the guy was like like no, I can't. I'm so sorry, Like I'm in New York and Bill Murray hangs up the phone click, and the guy is like what And then and then three months after that, Bill Murray calls him again and he says, can you be and can I pick you up at Lax in like twelve hours And the guy was like sure, yes, yes, and so he gets in an airplane, goes to Lax. Bill Murray picks him up in the back of a limousine. They drive around for like three hours or the driver does aroun. After three hours, they talk about the movie. Bill Murray says that he'll do the movie, and then they drive him back to Lax to drop him off, and the guy is like, like, can you just like write on a napkin or something that you agreed to do? Like, I have no proof that stuff. Nobody's ever gonna believe that this happened, right, and what it'll do. I don't think he wrote it down, but he did do the movie. Eventually. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Wow, that's amazing, but you have to but how do you get this number? I'm not going to promote it, but I'm just curious. How do you know I think you can google it like I think it's I think it's it's a thing. It's just a thing. Yeah. I love Bill Murray. I just absolutely love Bill Murry. He is like the coolest human being, the coolest, I mean, amazing. Okay, So did you call Bill Murray? You should have called for him. You know, he could have played the female vampire. He would have so done it. All right, So you you you've raised half a million dollars uh to make this romantic comedy about vampires. Now, when you were doing this, did you have a niche audience in mind? Did you figure out, like, Okay, we're going to target this group of people, because I'm assuming the the vampire community itself is a the people who identify as vampires, it's fairly small parably to the general public, but people who like vampires is a fairly large niche audience. And then there's horror, and there's horror fans and people that actually it could spill over to. Was that was that a thought process? Oh very much. And actually, circling back to the casting conversation, that we were very intentional about how we cast based on the audience, even though we weren't able to get bigger actors. So our our working hypothesis was that our audience was going to break down into two groups. One we lovingly term the mega nerds. So like people who which I which I mean I have a life size I have a life size Yoda behind me, So I yes, I just clocked that it's a safe space. It's a safe space. So people who play D and D, people who are LARPers, people who are megas, sci fi, comic comic, comicung comicon, that sort of thing with the vampire angle. And then secondarily people who love romantic comedies. But we figured that that we needed to be a little bit more specific with that group, So we figured people who love romantic comedies and also Harry Potter because the film is very much about sort of the feeling of being an outsider and wanting to be seen and accepted, and so we felt like the people who were at the convergence of that we're going to be the right people interesting. So that was just a demographic. I'm assuming, in like direct ads and things like that is what you're talking about to target these people, we right, So we didn't test that at the time. We tested it before we released the film, and it did prove to be correct. But I am a person who likes romantic comedies and Harry Potter quite strongly both, and so we figured that that was a pretty good cipher. Yah. So, and also the film has an almost entirely female creative team. The lead character is a is a super bad ass agi female character, and so we figured also we wanted to go after people who liked that kind of feminist content, and now how did you target them through like Facebook ads and things like that? Through face Yeah, So when we eventually released the film, we had a number of marketing tactics. So we did do the Facebook ads direct okay and then all and we had slightly different messaging that we marketed the film as to those groups. So like for the meganers, we pushed the vampire angle more strongly, and for the rom con people, we pushed the love stories angle more strongly. Interesting and that actually because I mean, I always preach and you know, as a film entrepreneur, you like you have to niche down, niche down, niche down and understand who your audience is. So I find it interesting, like because if you can try to if you're going to try to reach romantic comedy lovers. That's too large of an audience. You don't have the resources to do that. But when you combine the Harry Potter romantic comedy area, it niches it down. But it's not a niche that you would conceive normally. It's like, and that's an interesting concept. I've really never thought of it that way. We're like, Okay, well, people who like romantic comedies and also like Harry Potter's are probably gonna like this. Let's do a test Let's do a test ad which you could do for twenty five thirty five bucks, fifty bucks and just kind of just test out your hyposters hypothesis. And it was interesting. So we tested way at the beginning of the putting together the marketing materials, we did ab test those two different demographic groups with our trailer, and we had exactly the same click through rate from both groups, which was really interesting because we thought maybe we'd learned that one was stronger than the other and then target the film that way, and it actually came out totally evenly. Really, that's interesting. So that's a good way for people listening is well, you did market research prior to like you were trying to figure out how to do this by by doing the kind of like little test Facebook ads and stuff like that, you're basically doing a lot of the stuff that I preach, which is fantastic, and how you were on the show. All right, So all right, so you had a very so you have so just to close the loop on the casting thing quickly. So, because we had the feeling that that was who our audiences, we then decided that it was important to get actors that had fan following, specifically in those groups of people, so smart that aren't necessarily household names but would be known to those people. So we really wanted a Harry Potter actor very much, and we ended up getting Christian Colson, who played Tom Riddle and Harry Potter in the Chamber of Secrets. And then we got Naomi Grossman from American horror story Perfect and then Annie Golden from Orange is the New Black, which we figured she's edgy, fatness content. I mean, she's incredible, So we tried to think about casting. So that is again what we preach, and it is it is so wonderful to see this because you know, look, if you made this movie for fifty grand, you have less to risk, But you have half a million dollars, which is a substantial amount of money for an independent film, and you're being very smart so far in this journey. I'm seeing it. You're being very smart and strategic on how you're doing this, because again I've always said, like, if you're gonna make a horror movie, you might not be able to afford Brad Pitt, but you might be able to afford Robert England to come out for a day or two, who has a huge horror following. And if you're doing something that's aimed at eighties horror, I mean, he's a dude that you would probably want to cast and probably affordable comparatively, you know, to you know, obviously you can't get Brad Pid or Meryl Street or something like that, but they actually are larger in the niche that you're trying exactly. It's who are So we had we had two young women. We premiered at Centequest in San Jose, California. Yeah, yeah, my first film was premier place. They're awesome. I love Senequest. So we had that premiere. We had two young women drive thirty hours from Michigan to San Jose for that premiere because Christian Colson tweeted about it, and then later they moved to North Carolina before we had a Brooklyn screening where Christian Cols was going to be there, and they drove another twenty hours from North Carolina to be at that screening and meet Christian Colson. Like that is the kind of fan that you want. Yeah, yeah, that's the kind of fans you want. And you and in all honesty, you can't do a film like this without that kind of strategy. Like it's like if you just, like, you know, grab a whole bunch of friends or no name actors or non recognizable, non marketable actors and try to do half a million dollar, which I've seen multiple times, it'll die on the vine. It just won't go there. So you have to do this is like you you need something, You need some angle that's going to turn out the people. That's awesome. That's awesome. All right, So you finished making this movie. Now I'm assuming during this process, even during the making of this movie or prior to it, you're already thinking how you're going to distribute this thing? Correct? Yeah, we were although to be perfectly honest. So my first feature film, as I said, had gotten a distribution deal, which at the time felt like, oh my god, it was a theatrical it was ten city things. And you're still counting the money that they keep sending you, right, well, I mean it's mostly tiring to swim in the gold coins like Scrooge McDuck and this I will tell you exactly what happened with that movie. So we got into and I and we actually I believe our distributor wasn't We're Honest people, which I think in and of itself was incredibly rare in luck. But we have made two date came out in twenty fourteen, slightly less than five thousand dollars we have received from that, from the whole movie, from everything, from Everything Jesus, and to make matters worse, a year ago, that company folded and got their their titles got bought by another distribution company, which happens all of the time, because these distribution companies are turning over like that. And that company has had our films since last August, so a full year, and we have not received a single report or check from them period, despite the fact that we have emailed and called them multiple multiple times. We had a lawyer contact them, like, they just won't unless they're like, if you want it, sue us. Yeah, basically, when is the original contract up in one year? Okay, and then I'll come back to you and then you can do whatever you want with it, right, So thank god it was a short I mean it was. It was a six year contract, which is relatively it's relatively share anywhere between five to seven is where I recommend it. Not recommend, but it's just generally we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. You know. I literally just got a call from a filmmaker's like, yeah, this distribution company will not be named, but they offered a fifteen year, seen year deal with no money upfront, with no money upfront, so I'm like, oh, you're donating the film. Then it's a donation. It's a donation. There's a write off. It's a rite off because you're never going to see a dime oh in one hundred thousand p and a locked off at one hundred thousand p and A. So it's like, are you kidding? Are you kidding? I'll never see a dime. Ever, it's predatory. These guys are made. We made a docu series about the tour, which we'll talk about in a while, But in the course of part of that docu series was that we wanted to be radically transparent about our data and numbers and avenue and everything, because we feel like a huge problem in this space is that nobody has any information, so we're essentially all making dumb decisions because we don't know have any information. So because we've done that, a number of other filmmakers began reaching out to us who had gotten to traditional distribution deals, and we're willing to disclose to us what had happened numbers wise. So we had a pair of filmmakers come on our series and talk about what happened, and it was the abuse is the beating, the beating, Yes, well and like the feevery oh straight up. And so then we had a lawyer contact Is who spends a lot of time fighting this stuff, and he said, I mean the whole phone calls in the episode, I'm and I'm crying by the end of the phone call because it's so horrifying what he told us. Wow, I would like to talk to him totally, talk to him. We will talk after afterwards because I really need to talk to him. You know, I've talked about distribution, and you know, the whole film entrepreneur model in general is about giving power to thinking about film as an entrepreneurial endeavor, thinking of your movie as a product and audiences and selling it and all that stuff, and to use traditional distribution as a partnership or as a hybrid part of the hybrid distribution model where you still retain some sort of control and you don't get lost. You know, I know Sundance winners with their movies that got lost in bankruptcies of distribution companies and their rights are locked up for years and by the time six years were I was around, no one cares about their Sundance winner ready anymore? Right, It's well, one of the filmmakers who came on our series to talk was they didn't win Sundance, but they were at Sundance, which is you know, like that's winning, that's winning. Yeah, and they have received zero dollars back from their distribution company so far. I mean, yeah, yeah, that's insane. Okay, So so you you we're gonna get about the docuseries in a little bit, So your distribution plan what was the idea like when you started going down this because I'm assuming you feel responsible to pay back these people, uh and and and even possibly make a little money on this on this deal, so you as a responsible filmmaker, We're like, okay, guys, we've got half a million. How are we going to make this back? What was the what was the thought process there? Yeah, so initially we started going down the same old path of applying to film festivals and want wanting to be picked like Cinderella out of the masses, and sort of like a lottery ticket, the lottery ticket, mental a lottery ticket, and it's really two lottery tickets, right. You have to win the lottery of the film festivals to get into a major film festival where you can even be looked at by seriously about distributory. And then you have to win the lottery again to actually get a distribution deal. Yeah. So basically, and there's only what five six seven in the US five there's five that matter. Yeah, and even then even Sundance, So I had I had a distribute. Somebody who's worked deeply in distribution tell me the other day off the record that she said, you know, all these distribution companies tell filmmakers, don't worry if you don't get into one of the top film festivals, we still look at other festivals. Whatever. She's like, that is bullshit. She's like, if the reality is, if you don't get into a top film festival, you are screwed. If you get into a top film festival, you are still probably screwed. But there is a tiny percentage of chance that you're not totally screwed unless you go at it from a different point of view like you are and what we talk about. Okay, so all right, so what was the ar You went down the back the normal traditional path. So Sun Dance, you submitted to sun Dance, you submitted Sundance, you were not accepted to sun It's not really a sun Dance kind of movie, I mean. But also, but you you you did a crowdfund with Steven Spark, right, we did? Yeah? Okay, so can we talk just so quickly about you know, because I crowdfunded my first film on and I love Emily and I love what they're doing, their fans they're fantastic, and uh, you know, did you so you crowdfunded this? How much did you raise when you crowdfunded. We crowdfunded thirty five thousand, so this is this does a good amount. That's a good amount without question. And then you and then you got the investments for the rest, but you started to build an audience with them. Yeah, with with Steeden Spark and then Seed. This park has their own kind of you know, distribution output deal like through their service and they have a deal with with Quiver and all that kind of stuff. Right then, you don't have a deal with Quiver. We got to Quiver. Liz Manischell at SUNS of course, Liz, Yeah, a friend of the show. We had we had gotten to the final rounds of being selected for their creative Distribution Lab and they have a deal with Quiver that if you're a finalist, you've got a discount. Awesome. They were on the show, They were on the show. Did you the funny? A quick funny story about Liz. She called me and she's like, Alex, we have this distribution grant. We want to give people filmmakers away, but we have like fifteen people who've signed up. I need help. Can you get the word out? I'm like, are you kidding? Are you kidding me? Give me a minute? And then I and then I put her on the show and I go, be careful what you wish for. And they were in nun dated. They had to shut it down, and I said, and they were foolish enough to leave their emails on the show. I'm like, don't She's like, no, no, we don't mind. We want to help. I'm like, okay, and oh yeah, oh yeah. It was. It was brutal. That's awesome, all right, So you went down that road, so so go ahead continue, Okay. So I would say we spent about from like September to to know to like Thanksgiving, sort of going down that path, having initial conversations with distributors and sales agents and simultaneously sort of feeling our own souls dying the by the just like sort of soullless horribleness of that process. And also so I had had that experience with my first feature film and my producing partner Sarah Wharton's past feature films, I had very similar experiences with traditional distributors, and like we were just kind of getting like it just began to feel like we were going to hand our film to a person who was going to throw it off a cliff. Again in exchange for a large percentage of our revenues. Like it just you throw it up against the wall and see what sticks. Right. And Also, I think what was different this time too, is at this current moment in film distribution, you can feel the despondency wafting off of the distributors themselves. Like you're in these conversations and they're just like, well, we don't know what works. I love your movie, and I have absolutely no idea how to sound like you can just feel the despair, but I feel. But I think also distributors have the same problem as independent filmmakers. It's like they they can't get above the noise. Like no, no, there's certain bigger distributors. I mean, I'm not even talking about Lion Skater the Studios or anything like that. I'm talking about just like even bigger indie distributors names. These guys, they just basically pump it out through their outlets. So they'll put it on iTunes, Amazon, they might make a red box deal if you're lucky that maybe they'll do a limited theatrical if it has some sort of maybe if it maybe they'll get Netflix or Hulu to buy it. They'll submit it but they just basically shotgun it. They don't really have a plan. And it's almost impossible for a distributor without major money to distribute, to get any sort of awareness for a film. Even if you dump five or ten million bucks into P and A, that still means that's nothing totally. And and yeah, there is no doubt that we are in a profound distribution crisis right now across the board. Like it's not it's not it's not like it's a distributors not that piece of it is not the distributor's fault. But in that landscape, I feel like it makes the prospect of going with a distributor even worse because like they're just like flinging stuff out and nothing's working because it's it's too they they've caught. They're basically I hate to use the term blockbuster, but then don't be blockbuster. That's what it is. They got into, they got fat. This is the way it's always been. And then when Netflix, and when Netflix showed up and offered Blockbuster to buy them for fifty million, the Blockbuster said, no, kid, we're fine. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. We're good on this video store thing. We don't need your DVD home sale thing, whatever you're doing. And but that's what that's where these old school distribution distribution companies are coming from. They're just they have no idea how to handle the new landscape and it's changing daily, daily, daily. It's insane. It's insane, right. So so in the middle of that mess there there came a moment around Thanksgiving where we were just like, we just looked at each other and we were like, we're not doing this again. This is horrible and not going to work, and this movie is too good. We have too much money on the line. We're just not Nope, we're not doing it. So we started. I had a dream, actually, clearly is what happened. Yes, mlkay, Yes, I had a dream that we were driving around the country in an RV on something called the Joyful Vampire Tour of America releasing the movie. You had a dream, literally, you literally physically had a dream that that was happening. And I called and I called Sarah the next morning and I was like, this might be crazy, but what if we just ranted an archie and did the Joyful Vampire to America and God bless her. She was like, yes, and we should put thanks on it. It's awesome. You see, this is the audacity I was talking about. This is what I love about the story. So in this last December, I had the stream and we basically started calling everybody that we knew within the industry and sounding out this idea and all that didn't go. Well, I'm sure you know the nothing will signal how giant a crisis the industry is in. As basically everybody's res fronts was well, nothing else is working, you may as well try Wow. Wow, that's that's as volumes right. One one woman read us the riot act about how we were throwing our careers off the cliff. But truly in a while for that phone call and when it finally and I was like, oh, this is finally happening. Okay, okay, good, we are crazy. I mean, everyone can't agree with this, this is sin sane. Everybody else was just like, we don't know, probably try it, so I guess. So we decided around Christmas that we were going to do this, and then we had from January to May to put together the tour and the basic thinking behind the tour was okay. If the hurdle is that it's really hard to get people to leave their houses now to watch a movie because you have infinite content from your sofa, then you have to offer people an extra reason to do it. Yes, So we thought a piece of that is certainly having the filmmaker be there, being able to do a Q and A after people meet the filmmaker get to talk about the movie. But we felt like there needed to be another element that that wasn't quite enough, So we came up with the idea that we would throw a joyful vampire ball after every screening, and that we would invite the audience to come dressed in costume to the screening and the bar and the party. And if I may stop you for a second, and if you understand your niche, which you guys definitely do understand your niche, that audience would love to dress up and go to a ball. Oh yes, right. And funnily enough, the desire to dress in costume and wound up expanding way beyonder niche audience like it turns out that most adults just looking for an excuse to wear a costume. Fun fact. Fun fact for everyone listening out there people just want to dress up. Yeah, So that was that was the concept, And then we ran some back of the Napkin math and quickly understood that we could not physically make back anything close to the budget from the tour itself, because I had three that I could do physically go on this tour, so we had we had to do a three month tour and Okay, you can't do a screening every night or you'll die. So maybe, like initially we thought we'd do like twenty to thirty screenings over that time count the seats. The most you can make is like forty thousand dollars, so just from but that's just from ticket sales. That doesn't include other streams of revenue, right, So we decided quickly that the model that we were going to test was to use the tour to drive online sales. So we got the film transactionally on iTunes, Amazon, and Google Play, and then we did a partnership with Seed and Spark so that they would help us market the tour, and so the film was available for subscription on demand through Seed and Spark, which was worth it to us because if you're if they're your only subscription platform, they pay forty cents per minute of your movie. Oh that's amazing, which is bananas, which means that you make more money if somebody watches it on Seed and Spark than even if they buy a ticket. Wow, I wonder how that is. I have to call Emily, what's that business model work? And like how? I mean? I think the only explanation I can come up with this is that they're artificially inflating it at the beginning of their model to try to attract filmmakers and then eventually that will go down. But like Amazon did, Yeah, but I'm happy to reap the benefits in the meantime. Fair enough, fair enough, Okay, So so and then what are the other revenue streams that you were able to create on this tour? So merchandise. Merchant was a major one. So we and because of the nature of the film, we felt like we just had a merchandise sort of extravaganza of course waiting for us. But also, don't forget, and I hate to interrupt you again, but that this audience is known for purchasing stuff like comic con geeks, mega nerds. This is what they love to do. So they love to dress up and they'd love to buy stuff. Great audience, great audience to go to target. So I'm just trying. I'm stopping you every once in a while so everyone hears and understands what the mentality and the process is, because you guys are doing you're basically hitting every note so far as a film entrepreneur, you're hitting every note. So far, so far, you're hitting every note. Okay, So we had DVDs and Blu rays, print made up, we had posters, we had very nice enamel pins. We had two kinds of T shirts, one that was the film's and one we had a very funny Love Sucks design design. So okay, and I'll stop, I'll stop there. I'll stop there one more time. Is that now you understand your niche audience and you're creating not only merchandise off your movie, but you're also creating merchandise that that audience would like that is kind of related to your movie, but not directly radated. So like the Love Sucks T shirt is just something that people who like vampires would probably buy, right, Yes, and that design. One of the characters wears that T shirt in the movie. But that's so But that's but then you say again, now you're product placing your movie. Oh my god, you're you're so hitting all the dots. Oh my god, I love this. I'm so glad I have you on the show. So continue. Okay. So we had hoodies, we had mugs. We had three different designs of mugs, and I think that's it. And then you sold every at every event, you would sell merch. And how much revenue did you generate from all the merch through the whole tour, give or take. I believe nine thousand dollars? Okay, so that's a nice. Hey, I'll take I'll take it if it's on the floor. You know, it's a nice it's a nice it's a nice chunk of change. Why not? Okay? Great? So now and then what other revenue sources did you create the ball? How did that process work? So the balls we ended up deciding. Okay. So the way it ended up working with venues and the balls is some venues, the screening and the ball would be at the same venue, so the whole evening would take place, and generally there there was only one ticket price, and it was for the whole thing, and those tickets tended to be more expensive, right. Some theaters were or some venues were more traditional theaters, and they either didn't have the space or wouldn't let us do the ball at that venue. So in those cases we would have the screening and then move everybody to a who wanted to come to a separate venue, usually like a local bar or something for the ball. Okay, And in those places generally we didn't charge extra for the ball. We ended up deciding that it was more worth it to have the people come and meet us and be engaged and by merchandise, Like the longer they hang out the drunk or they get, the more merchandise they're going to buy, So that's a plus. We just didn't feel and particularly because in those situations we would be doing them often at bars where other people were present, it became kind of complicated to be able to It didn't feel like something we could really charge for if I did this again, When I do this again, I would I would always do it in venues where I could do the whole evening in one place. It didn't really work very well when you had to move people, and then I would charge more for the whole experience. So quite often at these events so my husband was always working the merchandise. My very very nice husband, who moved into an RV for three months to test a distribution model, would always work the merch table. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And quite often people would come up to him and give him cash donations towards the film as they left the theater, which was really interesting, I mean, totally unsolicited. Obviously we weren't asking for donations, but what that signal to us is that people consistently felt like they had gotten more value than they had paid for, so that they would have paid more money for the experience that they got. What was the cost? What was the cost for the for the ball and the ticket. So a lot of places we were hamstrung by by what the movie theater normally charged for movies, So some places it was like seven or eight dollars. Whenever we could control it, we charged usually twenty for the movie plus the ball, so cheap though, I mean, you're carrying that's so cheap. You could have easily charged fifty fifty seventy bucks easily. Yeah, we wanted to test it and see I think I think in the future, I would I would charge more. Yeah, because you're creating an experience, You're creating a ventuage like even a even if you go to a bar, sometimes the cover is going to be twenty bucks. Like you know, there's there's ways of you could have. We definitely low balled it with the feeling that we were really testing a model and we needed to like it was something that people weren't going to be used to attending. It wasn't really a concept that audiences we're going to understand, So we had to kind of like make the bar for entry pretty low. Got it, Got it all right? So when it's all said and done, what were the rough numbers coming in from the tour? So from ticket sales, I think it came in at about seventeen thousand, okay, okay and includes but and the includes and includes balls. Yeah, okay, about seventeen thousand from ticket sales, which we could have I think had we sold out every venue, we would have made about forty thousand, I think. But we were marketing fifty one screenings in ninety days with a very small team. And yeah, that was my next question, how did you actually put asses in seats? Like, well, what, because that's a lot of mark a lot of right, Yes, so we did. We tried everything, So we did. We did a lot of paid Facebook ads, both to drive online sales and then also to drive people to screenings, so we would target people in a specific geographic air into screening. And the geographic targeting ads worked shockingly well. I thought those wouldn't work at all, but consistently at screenings people came because they saw an ad on Facebook. One lady drove four hours to see it in costume because she's on ad on Facebook, which I find shocking. Well oddly because there's not a lot of places you can dress up as a vampire, you know, and without being sconned at, you know, scoff that and go there. So you really I think you you you left some money on the table if I made Yeah, no, we did. But but the other thing is we went we went in blind like we had no information because there's no information. So there are a hundred things I would do differently next time. And part of the reason we were doing the docu series is so that now other people can have our information and do better next time. So we did the paid Facebook ads in almost every place. We had a local host whose job was to help hustle their friends help hanging posters around town. A street team, A street team, a street team, yes, so they they were crucial, Like I would say that was probably the most effective means of getting people into seats. And oh, actually, so we we with Seed and Spark. We ran surveys about this. So we we would have people sign up via text for our email list in the theater after the screening, which everybody should do. This is this worked incredibly well. And then the first email they would get would have a survey asking them to tell us like why they had come to the film and where they'd heard about it on all this stuff, And so the top, the top reason by far was hearing about it from a friend who was not involved in the film, so either word of mouth or local host. And then the next three tied reasons were paid Facebook ads, hearing about somebody it from a friend who was involved in the film, and hearing about it from the venue interesting, and then everything else like there was there was hardly anything else that even rate ranked on that scale. I mean, we did a lot of other stuff. So we we did have physical posters hung most all around the town, not just at the theaters, but like around the communities. We we did, we had a lot of We had a very active social media life, even outside of the paid ads, which was effective. We we did Facebook event pages, which I do think were quite effective. We we targeted local grassroots organ We used grassroots methods to target local organizations. So anything involving women in film, we would reach out to them, anything and any really any local film groups. We would reach out to, any local vampire clubs, any local D and D clubs, any LARPing groups, any Harry Potter clubs. There are a shocking number of Harry Potter clubs around the country. We would reach out to them. Did you think did you do any conventions? Like, did you show it up at any conventions? We did. We were invited to play at Spike Con in which we did, which was awesome. I think do playing more cons is going to be part of the next leg of our strategy, but we only played one on the tour itself. Okay, So all right, so and then when so you obviously were thinking about developing ancillary products during the movie. Obviously because you have the people wearing T shirts and you're already thinking about ancillary products. So that was part of your strategy as well, like we're going to sell merch. We're going to sell some merch on this like this is before the tour, you were thinking of selling merch. Yeah, I think that was always in our minds. Okay, although again we thought we would go down a more traditional path, like I think we were thinking we were helping set up a distributor to do a good job. And then right, yeah, I know, I'm sorry for people who are listening. You just see my face like a distributor do like and my face said everything. I was like, yeah, right, you know, like sad, that's such a that's such an indie filmmaker thing. This is same we all do, is like I'm going to set them up properly to do a good job, like they don't care. So now that you've done this this tour, yeah, that you were trying to drive digital sales? Did it drive digital sales? And do you have any sort of numbers with that? Well? So here is the giant problem with these digital platforms is they don't tell you for three to six months. They don't give you any numbers for three to six months, So unlike any other normal marketing thing, I mean, like with selling tickets on the road, we were able to very much adjust our tactics as we went, as we learned and saw what was happening every night, and you just don't know, so that is a huge problem. So we will definitely make those numbers public once we have them, but we don't have them yet. And then what's you were talking a little earlier about the next leg? What are you doing? How are you continuing this audacity of a journey? Well, so the tour ended two weeks ago. Oh wow, and we've all been in a bit of a comma. We all all gave ourselves permission to be in a coma more a lessons then, So we don't have an exact plan yet. We're going to start putting that together next month. But some things that we're definitely going to do start getting on the con circuit more aggressively. We have somebody who's helping us with foreign sales. We've we've had a lot of interest from international territories for the film. So how are you processing that? Are you doing that there were a sales agent or are you going to an international distributor? Well, I don't know yet. So we have we have an Australian sales agent who I met through a friend and is like a naturally trustworthy human being, unlike most sales agents, and so she has very generously offered to help us sort of like suss out what the best way to go is. She wanted to wait till the end of the tour so that we had our materials. So one of the big advantages to the tour outside the revenue earned from the tour, is that we now have video testimonials of people in costumes all over the country talking about how much they love the film, how their favorite film. You know. It's like, so we have our documentary filmmaker who was with us making the docum series, is putting together a sizzle real for us that we can now send with our trailer to distributors. We're going to go, holy shit. They ended up getting like they got people to come out in costume to watch this movie. But you're in the distributors with international, I'm assuming you're not gonna get rid of You're not going to give them domestic, No, no, not domestic, internationally, internationally okay, and then you're just gonna try to go territory. Are you gonna go to AFM or anything like that and see if you can do anything. I think we might try to go to AFM. Yeah, okay, if you're there, we'll have coffee. I'll be there. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. No feed there. Have you ever been? Yeah, I've never been. Now, oh, prepare yourself. It's uh, it is. It's an interesting place. Let's just pick that way. I went one year in the biggest movie of the year was Steven seagahal versus Mike Tyson. Uh in a movie. And then of course you need to watch that movie because I want to know who wins. But that's the kind of places. Yes, yeah, it's it's a unique it's a unique, unique place. Yeah, speaking of soul crushing. And then I think eventually we will try to make a deal with one of the streaming platforms. I think the feedback we've been getting is that the good thing about the streaming platforms at this particular moment is that there are all these new ones coming to the market in the next six months, and they're all looking and they're all they're all looking. So it's a It is actually a little bit more of of a seller's marketplace right now than it has been with the streaming platforms. Okay, and I'm assuming you try to did you submit to Netflix and Hulu yet or not yet? I am not yet? Okay, all right? I mean it's you guys, have I mean you are hustlers. You are indie film hustlers, your film entrepreneurs. You are hustling it. You're keeping going. You see, most filmmakers would have just said, well, that was the end of the tour, We're done, but you're like, no, no, no, as we continue this journey and this makes the money back yet And I think like part of this experiment to me is to try to figure out, like, is there a market, like is it possible to make back half a million dollars money on indie films right now? And the answer may be no. And if the answer is no, because so to speak about digital sales for a second, we don't have the final numbers, but I have a niggling feeling that we may have reached a moment where people are simply unwilling to pay even to ninety nine for oh yeah, a movie. Oh the future is a vod is that's the future. I mean, I know filmmakers making a ton more in a than they are as FOD or TVOD right without question? So that oh right. Also airlines, we're going to try to make some airline deals, airlines, cruise lines. The church is not so much with the vampire movie, but very well they're vampire churches. Yeah. So I I now suspect that our revenue model was wrong, that the tour will not have driven transactional sales in the way that we needed it to. So and so, but I think we have to look really into the abyss here as filmmakers and say, like, is it possible at any budget level? If it is, what does that mean? And and maybe the answer is that, like you just have to make very micro budget films, or the answer is that, like a lot of the arts, that the goal isn't actually to make money, it's to make impact, and that that ceases to be the goal as long as the budget justified. You just the budget, but then well as long as you are completely upfront about that with your investors, if everyone understands like, look, we're making art here, and this is an art exhibition and we're going to put it out there and this is the way it is. Yeah, I mean to answer your question, I'm in I'm in the in the trenches here every day in the indie film trenches. So the answer is, yes, you can make your money back, but you And that's what the whole film entrepreneur model is about. It's about rethinking how you do it. Could this movie if you would have made this movie for one hundred thousand dollar, which is it's still a decent budget, one hundred thousand dollars, you would be very close to making your money back. More unlikely, you know. So it's about always about the budget and keeping that overhead low or whatever. There's always that balance, like you know, if I spend a million bucks, what do I need to do to get that million bucks back? And vice versa. So if this, for what argument's sake, if this movie would have cost fifty thousand dollars, the tour would have been great, right, The tour would have been great, well, except ye give or take. I mean, you're not gonna make all the money back on the tour, but you would be really close, you know. And even on just merch sales, you would have done pretty well. I mean, obviously costs and stuff like that, but yeah, right, but I have to say that, And obviously the money is important obviously. However, there there is another bottom line here, which is impact. And I have never felt as an artist like my work was having greater impact than on this tour. Ever, it was astonishing to travel the country and go to Vicksburg, Mississippi, and Wichita, Kansas and like these places that I have never been and show my movie and talk to people afterwards, many of whom had never met a filmmaker before. Like I feel like in New York and Los Angeles, we forget actually what a big deal that is, because if you can find a screening without a filmmaker in attendance, it's like amazing. But like in Vicksburg, they had never met a filmmaker before, like for them, for them, it was like I may as well have been Steven Spielberg, you know. And I had this one really fascinating dialogue with a woman in Columbus, Ohio who my film lovingly pokes fun at Christians, but this woman what took great affront to that and came barreling up to me afterwards and was very hurt about the fact that I'd made fun of Christians, and I said, you know, I'm so sorry you feel that way. We had this whole we had a really extended conversation about the concept of comedy and punching up versus punching down and sort of like and at the end of it, she was like, well, it felt really great to be able to say that to a filmmaker because normally nobody here's my responses to movies. And I was like, that is awesome, you know. And and the idea, my hope, my dream now is that if we could get like an Oregon trail of filmmakers doing these tours and bringing film, independent films to parts of the country that do not see independent film, that have no access to anything in an in person setting other than the Avengers, and they could meet and have these dialogues with filmmakers of all different backgrounds and perspectives. That would change the country. It would, It would, and I would I would agree with you on that. And I think that the future of independent film there's gonna be a You're gonna need to do a lot more work. So I think that's gonna that's gonna thin out the herd if you will, because there's not many filmmakers that I know who want to get into an RV for three let's get some fangs on it and travel the country. There just isn't and it's going to That's what it's going to take. It's gonna take thinking about movies differently. It's gonna think about how can I create other revenue streams from this film? Is the film a loss leader? Where I made the film for one hundred grand, but I'm really making money on these online courses or books or you know, depending on the subject matter, you know, all all this kind of stuff. It's about thinking about it differently. I do believe there's a space for us, but I think we're gonna turn into more carnies where I think that port You've got to provide a service that the studios can't exactly period, and what you were able to do the studio there's no Avengers Ball. Now. They also made two points some billion dollars, so they don't care because that's not what that's not what their business model is. But for us, the scrappy independent filmmaker, the film entrepreneur, we got to figure out other ways to make it happen. And I I always look at this whole process as the creative process. The movie is just one part of this entire from casting, to creating product lines to doing this tour, this is all creative. Yeah. Absolutely, it has to become part of the dialogue and has to become part of this process because you can't just drop off to a distributor like as we very very very much have said, clearly said this in this episode, right, and so many filmmakers, both before the tour and during the tour, was like, well, I think it's really awesome what you're doing, but like I would never want to do all that work and like, well then but to me, and which I have sympathy for on the one hand, but on the other hand, A, why are we making movies if noyone's going to see them? And B I'm with you, Like I found I loved being on the tour, like getting I'm a filmmaker, getting to show my film to people fifty one times and listen to them laugh and have them come and caught like it was the greatest I mean I put it's one of the greatest periods of my life. Yes, absolutely, absolutely, and you know, I have you know, you're not the first film to ever go on the road show. There's many have done it before, but and there's many that will do it after. It's creating a business model that can sustain the art because you know, as I say, the word show, and there's the word business and the word business as twice as many letters as the word show. And there's a reason for that, because without the business, there is no show. And as much impact as you want to make, wanted it to be better to make a film that you can not only make your money back, but everyone gets paid. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. You get a little bit of profit, and you could do it again and again and again and again. And if you control everything, then you create your own portfolio where you have actual revenue streams and not like maybe you'll get a report. Right. That's the future. That's the future, absolutely, and I think the key pathway to that future is more films being willing to offer themselves as case study, as radically transparent case studies, because a filmmaker within their lifetime is not going to make enough films to crack the model based on their own experimentation, and so we have to be honest with each other even when we fail, like we just have to because then we will figure it out. Because I believe, I'm with you. I believe there is a model out there, but we don't know what it is right now. That's for damn sure. I mean, the model that has worked for me is doing ultra micro budget movies that have good production value, that are aimed at a niche audience. And then and you control everything. And you know, my first film cost me five grand to make, and I sold it to Hulu and I sold it internationally and I drove sales. But I have a platform and I was able to build off that, and there's audience building, and there's that whole conversation we never even got into, but that that is a possibility. If I would have made that movie for fifty or one hundred grand, I don't know, probably probably would have been another statistic. So it's it's a weird balance. This is a weird It's a wonderful and an extremely dangerous time for being an independent filmmaker because there's more access than ever before, but the competition is just it's crushing it. Really, I would say the noise more than the competition. It's I feel like it would feel differently if if you were if it was just like like such great work was being made and you were like up against like and you were and you were losing out of films that like blew your mind, and that doesn't feel But sometimes you see those films, but it's just it's sort of the noise. But also with that said, the competition is not just films. It's amazing television. I mean, the television that's coming out right now is where all a lot of independent filmmakers are going. Because I mean, and you're competing for that hour. Oh you know, you know, you going on phones and video games, social media and another a million other things. So there's just a lot of competition for eyeballs. It's so it's interesting again about that. So my hypothesis going into the tour was that you could maybe salvage the in person experience as long as you relied on online viewing for money. And I actually think it's the reverse because the number of people that came up to me and said, like, this is the first meaningful human interaction I've had with strangers in months and like the hunger of people to it is harder to get them out of their houses, for sure, But once they're there, you can give them, like borderline relig just experiences with very little effort, you know, just but in the simple act of putting them in a room and giving them context to interact with other people. Yeah, it's it is the future. It is the future. I think this is a this is a model that can work. I think at a certain budget range it could work, without question. I think at this budget range it will work. But it's going to take longer, it's going to be harder, hustling, and it's an experiment. You guys are really and your investors must be really cool people. They're really cool people. They're extremely and we did ask them like we we explained. But the other thing is like, Okay, so I think you're right. I think there's money that we probably left on the table. How are we whole? No? But are we better off than if we had gotten a distribution deal? Yes, you bet we are. You have money. We have money, some actual money. You actually got some money. We made more in the first week of ticket sales from the tour that I made for my entire first reachar film from a distributor. Correct. So yeah, I mean that pretty much says everything you need to say. So as a as a as a business person, as you know, you have to look at like, Okay, well what cost does that potential revenue justify? And that's that's the It's like, it's like you got to look at it as developing any widget, keep the cost as low as possible by still maintaining as high quality as possible to be able to create a marketable product, you know, and then also art, you know, there's that. It's a weird. We're a very unique, strange business. You know, we're the only we're the only business that says we're going to invest a million dollars into something that we kind of maybe figure maybe there'll be some way we'll make our money back. Like it's and has no inherent value that that's value will be decided upon financially upon completion. Right, because this has some random people, right, this this has a value. Yes, this phone has a value, and and it costs x amount and it has this X amount of value attached to it. A movie, I mean the Room, you know, the movie the Room which is considered one of the worst movies of all time, has a specific value attached to it. Is it better produced than your film? No? Is it better produced than most films? No? But is it more profitable? Yes? Absolutely. Tommy Wissau is a millionaire off of this movie because of the perceived value of that film. So it's such a crazy thing, well, right, which is crazy as a business. And it's also the only art form that is expected to make money like no other art form is really right, it is expected to make money, right, exactly, but because the value, the cost is so high. The cost is so high to create our art, you know, and there's so many and it's a collaborative art. So it's not even what person. It's a collaborative art. So now you've got to deal with all of that and the politics and the person. Are we doing? Well, this is what I have. I actually I came up with. I came up with a basically an idea of what why we are? It's insane as we are. And you are literally a carney. I mean you literally went on the road and put up a tent and put a show on and packed it up and moved to the next half. So I mean, I always consider as a Carney's but I think we have to get ourselves checked out for Celia Lloyd, because we might have a bad case of filmmaking. And I think and and and I think, once we get bitten, there's no vaccine, like you're done, You're done, You're you're it's over. And and to be a little bit more crass, it's kind of like herpies because it's dormant a lot of times, but it flares up and it's with you for life. So well, even in the worst day on tour, I would go into that theater and listen to an audience full of people laughing at the jokes I had written, and I was like, I'm good, I'm done. Yeah, for the rest of my life. There's nothing else I can do. Don't even need money. I'm fine. It's we're insane. We're insane. But if we understand our insanity, and if we if we are self aware enough of what we're doing, because a lot of filmmakers are not a lot of filmmakers are delusional. Trust me, I know I was very delusional for many years of my career. I'm sure you might have had a few years of delusion as well. But if we're self aware enough and then we actually become smart about how we can actually create our art and make a business out of our art and then create other revenue streams to support us while we're making our art to the point where we are able to eventually do this full time. That's the dream. And I think also a lot of filmmakers have this whole. I need to make a million dollars and I have to work in the studio system, and I have to do like that dream that Hollywood's been selling us since the nineties. If I'm able to make money that pays my rent and puts food on my table for my family, and I'm able to provide a service which is entertainment or some other service that I'm providing my audience, isn't that the dream? Like for me? It is? Yeah, right, It's like, I don't need billions of dollars, you know, I don't. I'm happy, but I do need to be able to pay my rent. And I think that's the pay you people. We're still not quite there, yeah right, Pay your rent, pay your people that work with you on this, and the crazy people that you can into doing going on these crazy journeys with us as film ankers. But I mean, I do, I do think there's something to the du plus yes model for sure of very low keeping the costlow upfront by giving everybody a piece of the back end. YEP with the touring model because one thing. So I will say that that having the name actors did help to a certain extent. But Naomi Grossman, who's one of them, hustled her took us off for us and and like got every cousin she has to come out to a screening and got every person she knows in every city, and she put more butts in seats, not because she's famous, but because she like hounded people to come. And for that reason she was the most valuable actor. And I think actually, if you if you had a whole team of filmmakers actively hounding people in cities because they were going to get a piece of the back end, we would have sold more tickets than we sold because we had famous actors. Yeah, there's there's there's multiple different business models. And I think the Duplus brothers have been able to they cracked the code. I mean, the duplus has cracked the code a while ago. And if you remember their first films they were made for nothing. And you know they're also friends with famous people, which again like but now, but now, right now, now, when they were starting out, when they were starting when they did Puffy Chair, you know they had they had sun Dance because they got the short film the year before, but it took them a minute before those famous people friends. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And now they can leverage everything that they have. But you know the whole Marvel story with them, right have you heard that story? Marvel called the Duplauses and they offered them a movie and they turned it down because they said, it's just not us. And that is self awareness and that is a clear understanding of what is important to you as a filmmaker. That said, look, we would be locked up for three years and it would have been fun maybe, but it's that it's kind of like, we don't want to do that, Like we want to make other films. We want to employ our friends, We want to go out and tell the stories we want to tell, Like why would we lock ourselves up for this kind of film? Like we're good, you know, we're making Netflix movies, we're making Netflix shows, We're doing HBO shows like I'm good, I don't need that and that, and every filmmaker that hears the story, many of them are like, you're crazy. I'm like, I said, no, he knows. They both know exactly what's important to them, right, And I think that's where we all have to be. Now, I'm going to ask you a few questions. I ask all of my entrepreneur guests, what advice would you give a film entrepreneur starting a project today. Liberate yourselves from the system, the matrix, get on the plug, unplug from the matrix, the red pill, because from the beginning. Because the other thing that I like, if we had known from day one of making Bite Me that this is what we're going to do a we would have done things differently and we would have been able to set ourselves up so much more successfully. Very good. Now, what is the biggest lesson you've learned going through this audacity of this this tour, this project where you are. What's the biggest lesson you've learned so far? The system is a lie. The matrix is a lie. Right, It's true, Like, I mean, I just can't tell you how many things people said to us, like, well, you're never going to get theaters to agree to this. So many theaters said yes, that we had to cap the tour at fifty one screenings Like that was not the like, they're just the idea that film festivals are the be all end all, when when in reality they're eating up your profits. Realistically, of course it's a lie. So like think differently, think differently, okay, perfect yes, like Apple says think different back in the day. Now, what is what did you learn? What have you learned from your biggest filmmaking or business failure like that first movie? Besides don't sign the traditional distributor? Yeah, hm, I mean I feel like it's the same answer again, Just don't just it's that that the decision to set to give your film to a distributor is the last decision you get to make with that film basically, Whereas whereas whatever mistakes or successes we had with this tour, we now get to make an infinite number of decisions. Next, do you see do you see yourselves partnering strategically with a traditional distributor, like carving out certain rights, like actually doing a real partnership if you found good distributors because I have and I have, you know, it's so hard to know. I mean, this is the problem, Like they all sound great upfront and then but yeah, I mean, of course, like if if the right opportunity came along, I think, particularly internationally, it makes a lot of sense. And it all it just all depends. It all depends, because there are there are models out there, there are distribution companies that I work with that can do good stuff. But I would agree, like if you just sign everything over, if you can try to, you know, like I'm going to keep the DVD rights. I have the rights to sell it on my website. Something that's a huge thing. Like if all hell breaks loose, I can still sell it on my I might I could sell it on my website. I could put it on Vimeo Plus and sell it right if worst comes to worse. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn? Whether in the film business or in life. The system is alive? Okay, sorry, Because you grow up watching the Oscars and you like and then everybody talks about Sundance and it's like there's it's so it feels magical, so true, and it just isn't and it and like and it's so hard. I feel like I've had to learn that lesson over and over and over again. Okay, Now, in your opinion, what is the deaf nission of a film entrepreneur? I think a filmmaker who understands that their job does not end when the picture is locked. It's a great definition. It's great definition. I love that. Now, where can people find out more about you? About? Bite me? About everything you're doing? Well? I have a website What Shocking twenty nineteen Naomi McDougal Jones dot com. It's not Geo cities? Sorry? Is it on AOL? Now? I'm joking? Maybe how does that AO will work? Exactly exactly? Bite me? Thefilm dot com is our film's website. I would very much encourage people to watch our docu series, which is on YouTube. You just search for The Joyful Vampire Tour of America. It's twelve episodes. It's it was made by Kiwi Callahan. It's incredibly funny and fun just as like an adventure store many of us living in an army for three months traveling around the country. But also does we pull our pants all the way down on everything. So if if I had had that tool as a filmmaker six months ago, my life would be different. Wow. That's awesome, Naomi. It has been an absolute pleasure talking to you. I'm so glad we were able to finally get together and make this app from and I hope, and I do hope that this episode really educates some people out there and really inspire some people to do something and also terrify some people because it ain't easy out here. It isn't easy. And like you said, the filmmaker who understands that their job is not done at cut final cut is a really great definition of a film entrepreneur because you've got to think about other things and you got to look at things differently, as you so wonderfully put. So, thank you again so much for being so candid and dropping some knowledge bombs and inspiration bombs on the Tribe today. Thank you so much for having me. That was an epic interview, Naomi. Thank you again so much for not only being on the show, but for everything you're doing for filmmakers with that amazing series, which by the way, the series is available on Indie Film Hustle TV. So anybody who has membership to Indie film Hustle TV. You can watch the entire series there as part of your membership. It's also available on YouTube as well, but I will put links to all of that in the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three sixty seven. Thank you so much for listening. Guys, As always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting dot tv.