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Book Club: Ace, Part 1 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Andy and Samantha and welcome to stuff
0:07
Speaker 1: I've never told your production of I Heart Radio. So
0:19
Speaker 1: it is time for another book club. And thanks to
0:21
Speaker 1: listeners and friends who have suggested this one, um, because
0:25
Speaker 1: today we are talking about Angela Chans novel Ace What
0:30
Speaker 1: a Sexuality Reveals about desire, society and the meaning of sex, which,
0:34
Speaker 1: as the title might imply, is an exploration into ACE
0:38
Speaker 1: experiences of all kinds and what we can learn from
0:40
Speaker 1: these experiences in terms of how we understand love and desire.
0:45
Speaker 1: And Chin is a journalist and speaker, has been very
0:47
Speaker 1: open about her own experience as an a sexual person.
0:50
Speaker 1: She's very clear that there is no one ACE, and
0:54
Speaker 1: that the book mostly focuses on liberal, Western, generally sex
0:57
Speaker 1: positive folks. She interviewed hundreds of people who identify as
1:02
Speaker 1: ACE from all kinds of backgrounds, digging into the intersections
1:06
Speaker 1: of race, disability, and gender with a sexuality and it
1:11
Speaker 1: was a very very quickly, very good read. Uh, And
1:14
Speaker 1: it was interesting to hear all these different perspectives kind
1:18
Speaker 1: of woven together. And um, if you would like to
1:23
Speaker 1: hear more, you can see our interview with a Doha
1:26
Speaker 1: Donzo that we did on a sexuality. UM. We also
1:29
Speaker 1: did We've done it with several episodes on this now,
1:32
Speaker 1: but one that came to mind a lot for me
1:33
Speaker 1: during this when I was reading this is our episode
1:35
Speaker 1: we did on what is Love, which was kind of
1:37
Speaker 1: an examination of what the sexual aspect of romance and
1:45
Speaker 1: how that's sort of understood in a lot of our culture,
1:49
Speaker 1: and how that might not be the case and perhaps
1:51
Speaker 1: we should separate that out or at least think about it.
1:54
Speaker 1: And Yeah, I would. I would recommend this because it
1:56
Speaker 1: does go into things like you don't have to be
1:59
Speaker 1: a sexual to this. I think it's it makes you
2:01
Speaker 1: ask questions about a lot of stuff, So I would
2:04
Speaker 1: recommend it. I definitely connected very hard with a lot
2:07
Speaker 1: of it about like not understanding sexual attraction, feeling hypocritical
2:12
Speaker 1: about things, UM, feeling pressure, feeling like I was a
2:16
Speaker 1: problem in a relationship, and avoiding talking about all of it,
2:19
Speaker 1: wanting to want what it seems everyone wants but not me. Right, Yeah,
2:25
Speaker 1: just to put it out there. You did talk about
2:27
Speaker 1: the fact that there are a lot of great examples
2:29
Speaker 1: and personal stories and interviews within it. And when we
2:32
Speaker 1: originally had the a sexual episode, we had a couple
2:35
Speaker 1: of male followers who are like, hey, I identify as
2:39
Speaker 1: a can you talk a little more about it, because
2:42
Speaker 1: you know, we don't hear that. We only hear the
2:45
Speaker 1: women because it's more acceptable for women to be ACE
2:48
Speaker 1: than it is for men. And I absolutely understand that.
2:51
Speaker 1: So if you're still listening, this is a great book.
2:54
Speaker 1: If we didn't lose those followers, Um, this is a
2:57
Speaker 1: great book for all sexes and all genders being able
3:00
Speaker 1: to bring you prime examples from all perspectives. So I
3:03
Speaker 1: think that's a great way to look at it. That so, yes,
3:06
Speaker 1: recommended for all, and not just our female listeners or
3:09
Speaker 1: those who have to defies female or non binary. Is
3:12
Speaker 1: for all. So I think this is something to put
3:14
Speaker 1: out there for anyone who's just trying to figure themselves
3:17
Speaker 1: out and need to relate. Absolutely. Yeah, there's a there's
3:19
Speaker 1: a chapter on male ACE experience and we're going to
3:23
Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit. But yeah, I'm really
3:25
Speaker 1: really fascinating a lot of stuff in there, and this
3:27
Speaker 1: one is pretty quite heavy because a lot of it
3:30
Speaker 1: and I was like, yes, let's just putting the quotes,
3:33
Speaker 1: but we're going to have discussions around all of that.
3:36
Speaker 1: So let's start with this one. I misinterpreted a person
3:40
Speaker 1: who does not experience sexual attraction to mean a person
3:43
Speaker 1: who hates sex, and so I personally could not be
3:46
Speaker 1: a sexual I hadn't had sex yet, but the idea
3:48
Speaker 1: held great promise. That's the strange thing about this orientation
3:51
Speaker 1: and all the misconceptions that carries. It is possible to
3:54
Speaker 1: be ace and not realize it, to see the word
3:56
Speaker 1: and still shrug and move on. Definitions are not enough.
3:59
Speaker 1: One as plumb deeper. Yeah, And I just wanted to
4:02
Speaker 1: include that because this chin is really open with her
4:06
Speaker 1: experience and all the questions she had and all of
4:09
Speaker 1: the stuff she still wrestles with. And I think that that, like,
4:13
Speaker 1: you know, you have to dig deeper. I think that's
4:15
Speaker 1: good for everybody, first of all, but I also felt
4:18
Speaker 1: that that was really true. And there's just a lot
4:20
Speaker 1: of questions you have to ask yourself of like what
4:25
Speaker 1: it's odd when there are things that you just take
4:28
Speaker 1: for granted and when you realize, like, oh, maybe I'm
4:32
Speaker 1: not experiencing this thing. Everyone else's right and that's fine,
4:37
Speaker 1: but you do have to kind of really get to
4:40
Speaker 1: know yourself, right, And I think in overall, it could
4:43
Speaker 1: just be said as a blankett type statement. What we
4:46
Speaker 1: see as sex by media and or assumptions is often
4:51
Speaker 1: wrong for anyone who I didn't advise as anything, So
4:54
Speaker 1: we all didn't know that that Like, it's just it's
4:57
Speaker 1: just misinterpreted altogether. Point like the way it is represented
5:02
Speaker 1: to us. Man, we need real honesty, and this is
5:05
Speaker 1: part of that honesty is again feeling different or feeling
5:09
Speaker 1: not the same as everyone else when it comes to
5:12
Speaker 1: what it actually is. And yeah, really did for everyone
5:22
Speaker 1: for sure. But the confusion for so many of us,
5:26
Speaker 1: uh is because of what the expectations were rather than
5:29
Speaker 1: what it actually is. Yes, um. And here's another quote.
5:33
Speaker 1: There's the man who grew up in a religious environment,
5:35
Speaker 1: followed all the rules, only to realize after marriage that
5:39
Speaker 1: sex was not the wonder he had been promised. The
5:41
Speaker 1: woman who ordered blood tests in high school because she
5:44
Speaker 1: was convinced that her lack of desire for sex was
5:46
Speaker 1: a symptom of serious illness. Disabled aces can have trouble
5:50
Speaker 1: fitting into either community, wondering where their disability ends and
5:53
Speaker 1: their asexuality begins, and whether finding that borders shouldn't matter.
5:57
Speaker 1: Aces of color and gender nonconforming a says, question whether
6:01
Speaker 1: there's a sexuality is a reaction against stereotypes. Everyone wonders
6:05
Speaker 1: how to separate friendship and romance when sex is not
6:08
Speaker 1: part of the equations. Aces who don't want romantic relationships
6:12
Speaker 1: wonder if there's room for them in a world hyper
6:14
Speaker 1: focused on a particular type of partnerships, and aces who
6:18
Speaker 1: do want romantic relationships point out how consent practices don't
6:21
Speaker 1: make room for their needs. Yeah, and those are like
6:24
Speaker 1: all chapters, all those things she mentioned. She breaks down
6:27
Speaker 1: into the whole chapters and has these interviews with people
6:30
Speaker 1: and discussions with people, and there's a lot of things
6:32
Speaker 1: I found interesting in all of that where I I,
6:36
Speaker 1: like I said, I've been kind of dealing with this
6:39
Speaker 1: for a while and asking questions about myself for a while,
6:42
Speaker 1: And like I said in a recent happy are, I
6:44
Speaker 1: think I'm starting to my mind is starting to expand
6:48
Speaker 1: into like what could a relationship look like for me?
6:50
Speaker 1: And like it could be a bunch of different things,
6:52
Speaker 1: which is really exciting in a lot of ways. Um
6:56
Speaker 1: or if I even need it, or if I can
6:57
Speaker 1: be complete, which I can be, but like that idea
7:00
Speaker 1: of I'm not sure if that's even what I want,
7:02
Speaker 1: but it's just that I'm thinking about it, right, And
7:04
Speaker 1: so that I found that really interesting. There was a
7:06
Speaker 1: chapter that we really went into like definitions around romantic
7:10
Speaker 1: and platonic and attachment and all those how those are different,
7:13
Speaker 1: and how we might misunderstand those things, and how they
7:18
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have to be like they all have separate definitions,
7:22
Speaker 1: but they also can interact, and how different groups of
7:27
Speaker 1: people see those things differently as well. Um And of course,
7:31
Speaker 1: because of the nature of this book, it does come
7:35
Speaker 1: from kind of an a sexual understanding a lot of
7:38
Speaker 1: times of like what what does that mean? Um? So
7:41
Speaker 1: I just thought that was really really interesting, and like
7:44
Speaker 1: the whole conversation of a lot of this is around language, right,
7:48
Speaker 1: Like we don't have the language to express perhaps things
7:54
Speaker 1: that are feeling. Are these different shades of relationships? Are
7:57
Speaker 1: are any kind of I don't know, like attraction, And
8:03
Speaker 1: so one of them was like friends versus more than
8:05
Speaker 1: friends but not necessarily you know, like sexual partner. But
8:11
Speaker 1: just having these like shades of it can be very passionate, um,
8:16
Speaker 1: feelings for someone without sex, and we just don't have
8:22
Speaker 1: a lot of times the terminology or even the tools
8:26
Speaker 1: to express that, which I thought was really interesting. And
8:30
Speaker 1: then yeah, we've talked a lot about this constant narrative
8:36
Speaker 1: of not being complete without romantic love, and that is
8:41
Speaker 1: present in our language, in our laws, in our media,
8:46
Speaker 1: and our songs. Like just today, before we came in,
8:49
Speaker 1: I was making a tally of all the times that
8:51
Speaker 1: I was kind of bombarded with you need this relationship
8:55
Speaker 1: and you need sex, and it's very sad if you're
8:57
Speaker 1: not having And I just recently saw a TikTok or
9:02
Speaker 1: Twitter I can't remember somewhere where this woman comes on
9:06
Speaker 1: and it's pretty much joking about the fact that men
9:09
Speaker 1: continue to threaten women with if you're not careful, you're
9:12
Speaker 1: gonna be all alone. You're gonna be old alone. And
9:15
Speaker 1: she started life and she's like, you have no idea
9:17
Speaker 1: the fact I would be so excited to not have
9:20
Speaker 1: to be responsible for someone else. I don't understand why
9:22
Speaker 1: y'all keep using this as a threat as if said
9:25
Speaker 1: something bad um, And of course everybody was like, yeah, absolutely,
9:29
Speaker 1: And that's kind of that whole narrative is we've been
9:31
Speaker 1: fed for so long that if we don't have a
9:34
Speaker 1: partnership that means sex. Family all of those things, then
9:37
Speaker 1: we have not done this right, and that that we
9:40
Speaker 1: will be miserable. And it's just this weird stretch to
9:43
Speaker 1: say you need to be codependent on someone, and it's
9:46
Speaker 1: kind of like, really, is that the best you can do?
9:50
Speaker 1: And what you're telling me is because I'm able to
9:52
Speaker 1: rely on myself and I'm happy if I'm content with
9:56
Speaker 1: just being here with myself and whatever hobbies I have
10:00
Speaker 1: and or whatever dog I have, or indoor just joyfully
10:04
Speaker 1: reading as you would fan fiction all day long. I mean,
10:10
Speaker 1: and that's a flex to say, but you're going to
10:12
Speaker 1: be unhappy, but I'm not. I haven't been, so I
10:15
Speaker 1: don't understand. But yeah, stuff like that, that type of
10:17
Speaker 1: narrative that's what existed for so long and that we
10:20
Speaker 1: assume was the norm and true, right, And she in
10:23
Speaker 1: this book gives some pretty excellent, slash really frustrating examples. Right,
10:29
Speaker 1: we're going to go into um. But something else she
10:31
Speaker 1: talks about is this idea that like, once you're in
10:34
Speaker 1: a relationship, in this case particularly married, but like in
10:38
Speaker 1: any relationship, there's this expectation that sex is like owed
10:42
Speaker 1: or is a part of that. And she points out
10:45
Speaker 1: like marital rape being essentially a pretty new thing, like
10:50
Speaker 1: up into the two thousand's, like some long and that
10:53
Speaker 1: that's not really right because you're in a relationship, and that,
10:56
Speaker 1: again is just another instance of reallyationships look like that,
11:03
Speaker 1: that sex has to be a part of it. And
11:05
Speaker 1: if somebody wants another person doesn't, then too bad, and
11:08
Speaker 1: that's not really rape, which is gross and disgusting and
11:11
Speaker 1: completely wrong, right, and which, yeah, we've talked about that.
11:15
Speaker 1: And she even brings up the example of the Trump
11:17
Speaker 1: case with his former ex wife, which we talked about
11:20
Speaker 1: a long time ago, and the fact that he settled
11:22
Speaker 1: out of court because he knew he was wrong because
11:25
Speaker 1: he was. The only defense they had was they're married.
11:27
Speaker 1: It can't be rape, like that's what his life offered
11:30
Speaker 1: up right. Here's another quote. Sexual rights should not be
11:49
Speaker 1: assumed and self determination must never end upon entering relationship.
11:53
Speaker 1: You can give a no with zero caveats in each
11:56
Speaker 1: and every situation, full stop. You can say no if
11:58
Speaker 1: someone loves you and you of them back, you can
12:00
Speaker 1: say no for the rest of your life. Loving another
12:03
Speaker 1: person should never mean forfeiting bodily autonomy. Right. Of course,
12:07
Speaker 1: this has everything to do with the patriarchy in itself,
12:11
Speaker 1: because it is absolutely directed more at women. Now, of
12:15
Speaker 1: course it's gonna be twisted and flipped for sure, but
12:18
Speaker 1: when you come into a heteronormative relationship, you know what
12:22
Speaker 1: this is pointing towards, and that's women's obligation to men,
12:25
Speaker 1: which has been a barrier for so long in general,
12:28
Speaker 1: and why this conversation needs to happen more often because
12:31
Speaker 1: it goes beyond just and she says us a lot
12:34
Speaker 1: just ace community. It goes beyond to that, just to
12:36
Speaker 1: humanity in itself. But yeah, that that that level of
12:40
Speaker 1: expectation again an obligation, is part of the problem in
12:44
Speaker 1: this narrative. Yes, yes, and then I did want to
12:49
Speaker 1: just put on here, putting in your very briefly this
12:53
Speaker 1: whole idea of like puberty being a very confusing time
12:57
Speaker 1: and when you're like feeling these things and you're feeling
12:59
Speaker 1: crushed is and all the stuff, and you're kind of
13:01
Speaker 1: getting exposed to that through people that you know as well.
13:04
Speaker 1: It can be hard when you're seeing mostly one type
13:08
Speaker 1: of relationship two understand, especially if you haven't heard terms
13:13
Speaker 1: or you don't know these things exist, what it is
13:16
Speaker 1: that you're feeling are what you want and how that
13:18
Speaker 1: compares to what other people are experiencing. And I think
13:21
Speaker 1: that that can get in the way of a lot
13:24
Speaker 1: of people. I know we recently read a listener mail
13:27
Speaker 1: where the listener was saying, like, I didn't feel like
13:29
Speaker 1: I could claim this sexual orientation or the sexual identity
13:34
Speaker 1: because uh, you know, I was passing as hetero and
13:39
Speaker 1: I was getting privileged, and also like I hadn't done it,
13:42
Speaker 1: and so a lot like I didn't have enough women
13:44
Speaker 1: partners versus men partner, like all these things, and I
13:47
Speaker 1: think that can get in your head, and that does
13:51
Speaker 1: it's just confusing, it's confusing time. Um well, in general,
13:58
Speaker 1: I think when we look at this, uh, we have
14:01
Speaker 1: to understand once again the true conversation of this is
14:04
Speaker 1: people are fluid. People change, people's reaction changes. So what
14:08
Speaker 1: may have interested you and at one point in time
14:11
Speaker 1: may interest you less as you grow older. And you know,
14:13
Speaker 1: one of the funny parts of women in sexuality, there's
14:16
Speaker 1: this big conversation of when's the best time, or when
14:19
Speaker 1: are the where their hormones high up, or you know,
14:21
Speaker 1: all of these conversations and the fact of the matter is,
14:23
Speaker 1: if it's that way hormones have about everything to do
14:26
Speaker 1: with that. If there's a genetic disposition, if any of
14:28
Speaker 1: those things, if it's biology, then we should allow for change.
14:31
Speaker 1: Then that means, yeah, maybe what interested me one time
14:35
Speaker 1: doesn't interest me anymore. Maybe what I was attracted to
14:38
Speaker 1: then is not what I tried to tune now. Maybe
14:40
Speaker 1: it was a certain person that I was attracted to,
14:43
Speaker 1: you know, and and then for like to that point.
14:45
Speaker 1: Of course, we love having identifiers and being able to
14:49
Speaker 1: identify ourselves, but that could also block us in and
14:52
Speaker 1: be like, well, already identified as this. Oh no, I
14:55
Speaker 1: can't change. So that's a bigger conversation. Yeah, puberty is
14:58
Speaker 1: super confusing, don't. I don't understand why. That's the moment
15:01
Speaker 1: where we have to decide this is absolutely what I'm
15:04
Speaker 1: going to be in their next hundred years. But you
15:07
Speaker 1: know what I mean, right, Yeah? Yeah, And I think
15:10
Speaker 1: that's worth noting as well. Again, and there's crushes upon
15:13
Speaker 1: crushes upon crushes because of course I've identified one way
15:16
Speaker 1: the whole time in my life. But I don't I
15:19
Speaker 1: won't hesitate. TikTok obviously thinks I'm a lesbian. Okay, look,
15:22
Speaker 1: show me all the beautiful women. I will gladly watch
15:24
Speaker 1: them talk about their great day. Who it right? But that,
15:32
Speaker 1: by the way, that's an inside joke for many of
15:34
Speaker 1: TikTok ER's I think women have been like all been like,
15:37
Speaker 1: why does TikTok I think I'm a lesbian? Well, this
15:39
Speaker 1: is a cool video according to their algorithms. Yes, I'm
15:46
Speaker 1: just saying it knows I'm like dogs and funny women content.
15:49
Speaker 1: I don't know, And that's apparently what identify is. I
15:53
Speaker 1: don't know what that means. I don't know if there's
15:54
Speaker 1: a thing for that, but according to TikTok that's my identifier.
15:59
Speaker 1: That sounds right. I'm just saying alright, So moving on,
16:02
Speaker 1: we're gonna read a little more. I understood for the
16:05
Speaker 1: first time that it is possible to lack the experience
16:08
Speaker 1: of sexual attraction without being repulsed by sex, just like
16:12
Speaker 1: it's possible to neither physically craved nor be disgusted by
16:15
Speaker 1: a food like crackers, but still enjoying them as part
16:18
Speaker 1: of the cherished social ritual. Being repulsed by sex is
16:22
Speaker 1: a fairly obvious indication of the lack of sexual attraction,
16:25
Speaker 1: but the lack of sexual attraction can also be hidden
16:27
Speaker 1: by the social performative or wanting having sex for emotional reasons,
16:31
Speaker 1: and because of different types of desires are bound together
16:34
Speaker 1: so tightly, it can be difficult to untangle the various strands.
16:39
Speaker 1: People who have never felt sexual attraction do not know
16:41
Speaker 1: what sexual attraction feels like, and knowing whether or not
16:44
Speaker 1: they have ever felt it can be difficult, writes ace
16:48
Speaker 1: researcher Andrew cy hinder Litter in a two thousand nine
16:51
Speaker 1: letter to the editor of the journal Archives of Sexual Behaviors. Yes, exactly,
16:56
Speaker 1: and she wrote all of that. Yeah, I think that's
16:58
Speaker 1: a big conversation. Like if you don't know what it is,
17:00
Speaker 1: then what do you think it really? You know, you
17:02
Speaker 1: make up your mind too, Oh, this is what it's like.
17:05
Speaker 1: Kind of like if you're tasting food for the first time,
17:07
Speaker 1: you have no idea what it tastes like, so you assume, Okay,
17:11
Speaker 1: it's like this. Yeah, And you can't put yourself in
17:16
Speaker 1: other people's shoes. You can like listen to them and
17:18
Speaker 1: be empathetic, but you can't like experience right what it
17:23
Speaker 1: is they're experiencing, and you're limited once again by your vocabulary.
17:27
Speaker 1: And also like when people say what they're experiencing. It
17:31
Speaker 1: might mean something to them that means something different to me,
17:33
Speaker 1: and you're trying to make that match because you and
17:38
Speaker 1: she's really honest about this, and she says like it
17:41
Speaker 1: was difficult for her to be so honest about it.
17:43
Speaker 1: But there are there are times when I've wanted, like
17:49
Speaker 1: I feel like I should fit into this whatever this
17:51
Speaker 1: is that people are feeling. I should feel that, So
17:54
Speaker 1: I'm trying to make it work in my brain when
17:55
Speaker 1: people are describing it to me, like maybe I do
17:58
Speaker 1: feel that, and you know, just feeling like this would
18:01
Speaker 1: be and it sounds so terrible to say, but easier.
18:04
Speaker 1: It could be easier if I could just feel this
18:08
Speaker 1: whatever it is. So I would try to convince myself
18:10
Speaker 1: like maybe this is what people are talking about, right,
18:13
Speaker 1: and we're just like it's almost like an expectations thing
18:18
Speaker 1: where I'm just not as intuit as other people, right.
18:22
Speaker 1: I mean you could say that about love in general too,
18:26
Speaker 1: and for me when it comes to partnership love, I
18:28
Speaker 1: never really understood that that was a new thing for me,
18:31
Speaker 1: and I kept asking, even like recently, my friends who
18:35
Speaker 1: would so easily tell their partners I love you. I
18:37
Speaker 1: was like, how did you come to that point? How
18:40
Speaker 1: did you get here? And they could never really explain,
18:44
Speaker 1: and some people would be like, yeah, I just said
18:45
Speaker 1: it because he said it like or she said it
18:47
Speaker 1: like that was that narrative and something, so like in
18:50
Speaker 1: my mind it didn't make sense and I don't. I
18:53
Speaker 1: still don't quite understand it. And I say this and
18:56
Speaker 1: that I absolutely care for the people around me, and
18:59
Speaker 1: I would call that love because for me, it's a
19:01
Speaker 1: measure of what I would do for you, or how
19:04
Speaker 1: far I would go for you, or how how much
19:07
Speaker 1: you are in my thought process. So I'm thinking of
19:09
Speaker 1: things like I'm going to do this, but would any
19:12
Speaker 1: enjoy this? Let me let let me think about it,
19:14
Speaker 1: you know. And I don't think of it as like
19:16
Speaker 1: cherishments some source, So like if you care for me
19:19
Speaker 1: enough and you send me a message, I know that
19:21
Speaker 1: you think you're thinking about me like stuff like that,
19:24
Speaker 1: that to me is my measure of love. But it's
19:26
Speaker 1: different from everyone. And I still can't grasp that for
19:29
Speaker 1: partnership all the time, and I'm learning about it and
19:32
Speaker 1: I'm there because I've reached that level with a new
19:34
Speaker 1: partner where I'm like, okay, I'm willing to do the
19:37
Speaker 1: things that I do for my best friends for you,
19:39
Speaker 1: so that must be and right right, And I think
19:45
Speaker 1: that's a good point. I think people are very different,
19:48
Speaker 1: and I think that we do experience things that are
19:52
Speaker 1: very specific to our experiences and our upbringing and all
19:56
Speaker 1: these things like we internalized. Um. But that being said,
20:01
Speaker 1: you know, there is sort of similar threads throughout, but
20:04
Speaker 1: that can kind of get lost if you're if what
20:06
Speaker 1: you think love looks like isn't what you're experiencing, then
20:10
Speaker 1: that can be confusing, even though of course we do
20:13
Speaker 1: experience it in different ways, just with two shared threads. Well,
20:18
Speaker 1: it's kind of like how you know, I love my musical,
20:21
Speaker 1: so I thought, you know, being and love and then
20:22
Speaker 1: we're going to dance on the street in the rain
20:25
Speaker 1: as well as I thought sex. Meant, uh, if you're watching,
20:28
Speaker 1: you know, leave it the beaver. You just kind of
20:31
Speaker 1: hug each other and you said sleep the supper beds
20:33
Speaker 1: and you know like that, you know, yes, yes, but yeah,
20:42
Speaker 1: going back to your point of like the food thing
20:46
Speaker 1: or are you people just don't it's hard to describe
20:49
Speaker 1: something that only you know. So, like I was, I
20:51
Speaker 1: was talking about this with a friend the other day
20:52
Speaker 1: about colors, like, I'm not entirely sure we're seeing the
20:55
Speaker 1: same thing. Even though we're looking at the same thing,
20:57
Speaker 1: I don't know what your brain in my brain, they
21:01
Speaker 1: could be doing totally something different right there. And I think,
21:06
Speaker 1: like this was a good I wanted to bring in
21:08
Speaker 1: this quote just because it reminds me of the argument
21:11
Speaker 1: around feminism, where feminism doesn't mean I hate men, but
21:15
Speaker 1: that's what it gets turned into. And for a lot
21:17
Speaker 1: of times, for a sexual people, it get turns into
21:20
Speaker 1: you hate sex, which it doesn't necessarily mean that, it
21:22
Speaker 1: can mean that, but um it can. Like she said,
21:25
Speaker 1: like if you want to something you want to participate
21:28
Speaker 1: in emotionally or are because it's like a you know,
21:32
Speaker 1: a social ritual, then that's cool too, right as long
21:37
Speaker 1: as you're if you're doing it because you want to
21:39
Speaker 1: do it. So the book also goes into some history,
21:56
Speaker 1: and here's another quote. People who could be described as
21:58
Speaker 1: a sexual have existed for a long time. They were
22:01
Speaker 1: certainly around in the nineteen forties when sex researcher Alfred
22:04
Speaker 1: Kenzie was developing his model of sexual orientation. Kinsey believed
22:07
Speaker 1: that sexual orientation was more than a binary of homosexual
22:10
Speaker 1: and heterosexual. He created a scale, a line really that
22:13
Speaker 1: runs from zero to six, zero for someone who is
22:16
Speaker 1: exclusively heterosexual, six for someone who is exclusively homosexual, three
22:20
Speaker 1: for bisexual. Today, the Kinzie scale is famous and has
22:22
Speaker 1: become the main way of thinking about sexuality and sexual
22:25
Speaker 1: orientation in the West. It does not make room for
22:28
Speaker 1: a sexuality. Even though Kinzie knew about a sexual people.
22:32
Speaker 1: During the thousands of interviews that he conducted, Kinsey had
22:34
Speaker 1: come across people who didn't fit onto his line, who
22:37
Speaker 1: in his language, had no socio sexual contacts or reactions.
22:42
Speaker 1: Faced with data that didn't fit this theory, he didn't
22:44
Speaker 1: revise his line to make it more multidimensional and said
22:46
Speaker 1: Kinsey marked these people into a separate category called X
22:49
Speaker 1: and carried on heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual dominated while group
22:54
Speaker 1: X was mostly forgotten. Yeah, and I that was so.
22:59
Speaker 1: According to this book, one percent of the population in
23:02
Speaker 1: the United States identifies as a sexual. And she does
23:06
Speaker 1: go into the history of that and talks about the
23:08
Speaker 1: importance of the Internet for finding connection. But it's very
23:11
Speaker 1: clear like that's not when it started, that's just when
23:13
Speaker 1: people because there aren't you know, a huge population, we're
23:18
Speaker 1: able to find others and connect um through that. And
23:22
Speaker 1: then she does go into like a whole section on
23:25
Speaker 1: the difficulty of definition of being divined through negative space. Essentially,
23:30
Speaker 1: a sexual is defined by like the negative, the lack
23:33
Speaker 1: of something. And then it was interesting to read the
23:38
Speaker 1: history of this community and conversations around well what does
23:41
Speaker 1: it mean? And I love how often the question what
23:44
Speaker 1: about masterbation comes up? Because I get that question all
23:46
Speaker 1: the time to I get it all the time. And
23:51
Speaker 1: we're going to talk more about that. And in a minute, Um,
23:54
Speaker 1: here's another quote to the best I can tell. Sexual
23:56
Speaker 1: attraction is the desire to have sex with a specific
23:59
Speaker 1: person for physical reasons. Sexual attraction can be instantaneous and
24:02
Speaker 1: involuntary heightened awareness, a physical alertness combined with mental wanting.
24:07
Speaker 1: My allo friends say they feel sexually attracted to people
24:09
Speaker 1: they have just met, to people whose company they don't enjoy,
24:12
Speaker 1: two people they don't like, or even find good looking
24:16
Speaker 1: fair enough. Aces don't experience this. Aces can still find
24:19
Speaker 1: people beautiful, have a libido, masturbate, antiquat porn. Aces can
24:23
Speaker 1: enjoy sex and like kink and be in relationships of
24:25
Speaker 1: all kinds. So yeah, this. This reminds me of a
24:30
Speaker 1: very specific conversation I had with a friend Katie who's
24:34
Speaker 1: been on the show, where I was literally like, look,
24:36
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask some questions that probably sound very strange
24:38
Speaker 1: to you, but I just am curious. And I was like,
24:42
Speaker 1: so tell me what it's like to want to have sex.
24:44
Speaker 1: So tell me what you're do you like fantasize and
24:47
Speaker 1: what is that like? You know what happens when you masturbate?
24:50
Speaker 1: What are you thinking about all these questions, because it
24:54
Speaker 1: is it's a moment of having or you're you're like
24:58
Speaker 1: I don't think I have and experiencing these things, and
25:02
Speaker 1: and then you're just trying to go back to like
25:05
Speaker 1: the square one of Okay, I've assumed it's it looks
25:10
Speaker 1: like this, but maybe my assumption was wrong. And so
25:14
Speaker 1: I have what I call tame kink, and I look
25:19
Speaker 1: forward to discussing this and a future future happy hour.
25:23
Speaker 1: But basically, I experienced what I imagine is close to
25:28
Speaker 1: sexual attraction, but it's not sexual attraction because there's no
25:30
Speaker 1: like actual sexual part, but like the physical feelings where
25:36
Speaker 1: my fingers will get all tingly and it feels like
25:38
Speaker 1: my body is all warm and my butterflies in my
25:40
Speaker 1: stomach when it's something very tame happens, like somebody shows
25:46
Speaker 1: that they care about somebody else, Are they really protective
25:48
Speaker 1: of somebody else, or just like really sweet, caring stuff.
25:54
Speaker 1: That's what gets me going, and that's what I seek
25:57
Speaker 1: out in fan fiction. And I do feel the thing,
25:59
Speaker 1: but it's not like a sexual yeah, because I'm not
26:02
Speaker 1: like seeing anybody. Usually it's just something I'm reading about
26:05
Speaker 1: or even thinking about, or it feels kind of like
26:07
Speaker 1: when you're at the top of a roller coaster and
26:08
Speaker 1: it's just about to drop. But that's what I experience,
26:14
Speaker 1: and it's almost never I do with fictional characters. Obviously,
26:18
Speaker 1: like Luke Skywalker being the number one, I feel like
26:22
Speaker 1: strong emotions, but like if you remove it, I don't
26:25
Speaker 1: feel for the actor. So it's like it's a fictional uh,
26:31
Speaker 1: entirely based on that. And if I get if I
26:34
Speaker 1: find somebody really like emotionally attractive, I can think someone's
26:38
Speaker 1: really beautiful, I can and feel that, but I think
26:41
Speaker 1: even then, I don't think I'm feeling sexual attracts me
26:43
Speaker 1: so much as just like I want to be with
26:46
Speaker 1: that person and just like spend time with them and
26:49
Speaker 1: talk with them, right, I don't know like all of
26:53
Speaker 1: those makes sense into the level of like safety and
26:56
Speaker 1: such as well. Everybody has different things and it's according
26:59
Speaker 1: to how I feel a certain time. It could be
27:02
Speaker 1: an action that someone does. I'm like, oh, day on
27:04
Speaker 1: the sexy you know, that's definitely I think, uh, something
27:07
Speaker 1: that I do have a moment of of course, I
27:10
Speaker 1: have a harder time sometimes because of the sexual trauma
27:13
Speaker 1: that I've experienced as well as the sexual trauma that
27:15
Speaker 1: I saw in work um and had to deal with
27:17
Speaker 1: on a daily basis. I had a lot of sex
27:20
Speaker 1: offender cases, so there's a lot of different levels to
27:23
Speaker 1: that and trying to separate some of these things because y'all,
27:27
Speaker 1: when you've been in that field, and I'm sure we've
27:29
Speaker 1: got more and more social workers following us, how y'all,
27:32
Speaker 1: I'm sure they know what I'm talking about that you
27:34
Speaker 1: want to be in that moment. But even like being
27:36
Speaker 1: distracted by whatever work that happened that day is a
27:39
Speaker 1: huge thing and changes things pretty quickly no matter what,
27:44
Speaker 1: And that could be a whole conversation of being just
27:46
Speaker 1: really distracted and your mindset as well as preferences. But yeah,
27:52
Speaker 1: I think all of those things that you're talking about
27:54
Speaker 1: which you find as attraction, is that what would you say?
27:58
Speaker 1: But it's not necesarily sexual, but us an attraction. Okay,
28:01
Speaker 1: I'm trying to see how to say. It was like
28:04
Speaker 1: not making a romantic thing, but it is a romantic
28:06
Speaker 1: thing without the sexual thing, but not necessarily always yes, right, okay,
28:11
Speaker 1: so you're getting there. But like for me, all of
28:14
Speaker 1: those things are just and it is for you too,
28:18
Speaker 1: But for me, it's like a personality thing that is
28:22
Speaker 1: an automatic that I would want that you know what
28:25
Speaker 1: I mean, or want to give that. You and I
28:27
Speaker 1: are very close and reason were very close as we
28:29
Speaker 1: have that language of giving to each other or comforting
28:33
Speaker 1: each other in a manner of helping or or doing
28:35
Speaker 1: something that you see as the other person likes or
28:38
Speaker 1: wants or enjoys. So you cater to that for me
28:43
Speaker 1: my own life because you have very defined loves and
28:46
Speaker 1: I love that you make it very easy to give,
28:50
Speaker 1: even though it's a little abstract, so it's harder to
28:53
Speaker 1: find those things. We'll have to create my own things
28:55
Speaker 1: for you, but I know you love it because you
28:57
Speaker 1: also have tons of things that you like. Uh, kind
29:00
Speaker 1: of like our other friends who have those interests already
29:03
Speaker 1: have it. I'm like, what the what the hell do
29:04
Speaker 1: I do? In the hell? They already got this because
29:07
Speaker 1: I loved it for so long and they've always been
29:09
Speaker 1: a part of them, So that's easy and hard at
29:12
Speaker 1: the same time for me, I don't really have those interests.
29:16
Speaker 1: I thought about that the other day. It's like I'm
29:18
Speaker 1: a I feel like sometimes I'm a sociopath and this
29:20
Speaker 1: is going on a whole different level because when we
29:22
Speaker 1: talk about attraction and I've thought about this, I thought
29:24
Speaker 1: about this one. I was watching Dexter too, and I
29:26
Speaker 1: don't know if people who have gone through and probably
29:28
Speaker 1: had been a diagnosed with the react of attachment disorder
29:30
Speaker 1: at one point in time and or could have been.
29:32
Speaker 1: I'm still sure it could have been. I have a
29:34
Speaker 1: hard time in finding loves and likes of things I
29:37
Speaker 1: used to make myself because I'm like, this is normal.
29:40
Speaker 1: I have to play normal, so I would pretend to
29:42
Speaker 1: collect or want something. And then my dear love of mother,
29:46
Speaker 1: who also is similar to you, and I have like
29:48
Speaker 1: you like this, I'm gonna cater to this and I'm
29:50
Speaker 1: gonna focus on this because you love it would give
29:53
Speaker 1: me tons and tons and tons of stuff like that,
29:54
Speaker 1: me realizing I only said it because I needed to
29:57
Speaker 1: say because I needed to be normal, and now I
29:58
Speaker 1: have all this I do with it. I'm going on
30:04
Speaker 1: a different round this one, but it's kind of that
30:06
Speaker 1: whole level of trying to figure out what is it
30:10
Speaker 1: that I love and when I do find attraction, what
30:12
Speaker 1: is it? So for me, for the longest time, it's
30:13
Speaker 1: just physical. It wasn't emotional. It's in fact, I took
30:17
Speaker 1: emotions completely out of it. For the longest time, there
30:20
Speaker 1: was no such thing for me. So it's kind of like,
30:23
Speaker 1: I don't do the emotional sexual attraction. I don't do
30:27
Speaker 1: that because I think someone said, maybe you just don't
30:30
Speaker 1: like romantic you're you're a romantic and I was like,
30:32
Speaker 1: because I want it. There's there's there's sometimes to be like, Man,
30:36
Speaker 1: if someone so did this for me, I would be
30:39
Speaker 1: blown away, you know what I mean, Like growing up
30:41
Speaker 1: like these kind of romantic notions and queues. I love it,
30:45
Speaker 1: And so when I do get it, I'm like, oh,
30:46
Speaker 1: thank you. I love that, and I want to do that.
30:49
Speaker 1: I want to do that for other people. Do what
30:51
Speaker 1: you love. So let's do this, but it's weirdly enough,
30:54
Speaker 1: like I don't know what that is for me? Again
30:58
Speaker 1: read discovering all these things, but that that conversation of like, okay,
31:01
Speaker 1: so what is this attraction for me? Is it? ABC?
31:05
Speaker 1: And d okay, let's figure this out and trying to
31:09
Speaker 1: also combat the very very like and again, you know
31:12
Speaker 1: this as well as I do. And I think anyone
31:14
Speaker 1: who identifies as anything but heterosexual would understand. This is
31:19
Speaker 1: that level of how do I pretend to be normal?
31:22
Speaker 1: And it's so ingrained with me in me that what
31:25
Speaker 1: I'm pretending to be becomes what I think I am.
31:27
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Like, okay, so for the law,
31:31
Speaker 1: this is normal, So I'm gonna say I am. And
31:33
Speaker 1: then I believe it to the point that I can't
31:34
Speaker 1: change it. So I'm like, wait, do I actually like that?
31:38
Speaker 1: Like it's kind of that level, and it is It's
31:41
Speaker 1: really hard to like decipher all of that because I'm like,
31:45
Speaker 1: all right, these makes does these makes this? But this
31:47
Speaker 1: is what I know and this is what I pretended
31:49
Speaker 1: to be. And of course this goes beyond once again,
31:52
Speaker 1: and I keep pulling this in and I don't mean
31:54
Speaker 1: to that it goes beyond just sexuality, like identifying my
31:58
Speaker 1: sexuality goes beyond that. It goes beyond the every day Again,
32:02
Speaker 1: am I freaking sociopath? Do I need to rethink my life? Yes?
32:09
Speaker 1: But dot dot dot. But to say there's a lot
32:14
Speaker 1: to that level of just beyond if we can focus
32:17
Speaker 1: beyond that, it's like, wow, Okay, let's have a big
32:20
Speaker 1: conversation of again, what societal expectations of norms are are
32:26
Speaker 1: placed on us and how tangled that makes everything else
32:30
Speaker 1: in our thought process. Yes, yeah, I think that's one
32:33
Speaker 1: of my biggest takeaways from this whole book is that
32:37
Speaker 1: it's messy, Like we can't you can't remove the patriarchy
32:42
Speaker 1: from your experience and you can't remove white supremacy from
32:45
Speaker 1: your experience, and like you can be aware of it
32:47
Speaker 1: and do work on your part, but you grew up
32:50
Speaker 1: in that system. And so when you start asking yourself
32:53
Speaker 1: these questions which we're going to talk about more, but
32:56
Speaker 1: you you can get really in your head about well,
33:00
Speaker 1: what does this mean? Am I? Is this some something
33:05
Speaker 1: that came out of being raised in this system? Like
33:09
Speaker 1: am I playing into a stereotype or against the stereotype?
33:12
Speaker 1: And why am I doing that and just really really
33:17
Speaker 1: being uncertain on something you were probably already kind of
33:22
Speaker 1: I didn't feel maybe, or I should say, for me,
33:26
Speaker 1: it makes it hard for me to claim something one
33:29
Speaker 1: because I'm like, I can't say for sure, And that's
33:32
Speaker 1: not a great mind space to be in where you
33:36
Speaker 1: can't say why you feel the way that you do
33:40
Speaker 1: or don't feel the way that you do. Oh no,
33:43
Speaker 1: now we're the advice gonna think of as sociate about
33:45
Speaker 1: That's okay. I recently told some friends of ours that
33:50
Speaker 1: I thought about the whole dogs thing being overrated, a
33:53
Speaker 1: babiot of being overrated, and let me say, people would
33:57
Speaker 1: not let it go, They would not drop it. They
34:00
Speaker 1: already you should have learned this lesson, Andy, You got
34:02
Speaker 1: mal about your stays on, but not about the baby Yoda.
34:06
Speaker 1: Not about the baby Yoda, but about the I do
34:09
Speaker 1: want to say, though, because this is actually kind of
34:11
Speaker 1: relevant to what we're talking about, is I think that
34:14
Speaker 1: my when I say overrated, I think that my version
34:18
Speaker 1: of overrated might not mean what a lot of people
34:21
Speaker 1: mean when they say it. But it is kind of
34:23
Speaker 1: a similar thing of And we talked about this in
34:25
Speaker 1: my Dead Inside episode where it's like maybe I'm just
34:27
Speaker 1: not maybe I'm feeling the thing you're feeling. I'm just
34:29
Speaker 1: not emoting like you're emoting, or like maybe we're just
34:31
Speaker 1: expressing it differently. But A get you can't be in
34:34
Speaker 1: somebody's head, right, Okay. You can think something's not interesting
34:39
Speaker 1: and that's okay, and that might be dog and like
34:41
Speaker 1: oh yah, it's there cool in the story and that's
34:44
Speaker 1: kind of your conversation. And I thought about this because
34:47
Speaker 1: every time before I started watching Star Wars, every time
34:50
Speaker 1: I said I never saw it, the look of like
34:55
Speaker 1: that I got, I was like, calm down, and then
34:58
Speaker 1: I had to be a bigger stance on like, oh,
34:59
Speaker 1: I'm never watching it, which is what my other friend
35:02
Speaker 1: who have known for years, when I told him I
35:03
Speaker 1: actually watched it, he's like, I thought you that was
35:05
Speaker 1: gonna be your thing where you just never watched Star Wars.
35:07
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I gave in. He was like
35:09
Speaker 1: huh like and it wasn't because people are so like
35:13
Speaker 1: pushy to be like you need to watch this. And
35:16
Speaker 1: then this weekend I just got the you didn't watch
35:18
Speaker 1: Star Trek. I don't know if you can read friends,
35:20
Speaker 1: And I was like, I don't know what's happening, and
35:22
Speaker 1: then me having to explain I don't like sci fi
35:25
Speaker 1: that much. I'm starting to get into it, and they're
35:27
Speaker 1: like and me just having to stare. So that's a
35:32
Speaker 1: whole different conversation. But yeah, it's literally like, it's not
35:35
Speaker 1: that I hate it here. Yes, I totally hear you.
35:42
Speaker 1: I even brought you up. No, I was just saying, like,
35:46
Speaker 1: I know she's not feeling what I'm feeling when I
35:47
Speaker 1: watched Star Wars, And that's kind of the thing we're
35:49
Speaker 1: talking about. We're just experiencing the same thing in different ways.
35:53
Speaker 1: It's kind of like food. You may like this thing,
35:55
Speaker 1: I may not. The one thing we agree with was
35:58
Speaker 1: Mayo's trash. I don't think that's one thing we agree
36:03
Speaker 1: with it. No, I'm just saying it's one of the
36:04
Speaker 1: things that like, like, I won't touch it. I won't
36:06
Speaker 1: even like I don't like it. I don't have it
36:08
Speaker 1: in a refrigerator and I've never had it, and it
36:11
Speaker 1: blows my mind. I'm like, oh, yeah, is that a
36:13
Speaker 1: thing you want? I mean, anyway, sorry, you've gone Okay,
36:21
Speaker 1: So back to the book. Let's go back to some quotes, right,
36:25
Speaker 1: repeat after me and she wrote this not don't not me,
36:27
Speaker 1: so I don't repeat after me, se repeat after me.
36:31
Speaker 1: Sexual attraction is not sex drive. These two phenomena are
36:35
Speaker 1: often treated as interchangeable, but understanding that their separate helps
36:39
Speaker 1: explain ace experience. Simply put, sex drive or libido is
36:43
Speaker 1: a design for sexual release, a set of feelings in
36:46
Speaker 1: the body, often combined with intrusive thoughts. It could come
36:50
Speaker 1: out of nowhere and for no obvious reasons and not
36:52
Speaker 1: be about anyone. It's an internal experience of sexual frustration
36:57
Speaker 1: that does not depend on sexual orientation. A woman can
37:00
Speaker 1: be gay and have a high sex drive, that is,
37:03
Speaker 1: she frequently wants sexual release. A man can be straight
37:06
Speaker 1: and have a low sex drive. A person can be
37:08
Speaker 1: ace and have no desire for sexual release at all.
37:12
Speaker 1: Or a person can be ace and have a so
37:14
Speaker 1: called undirected sex drive that tingling in the other's and
37:18
Speaker 1: undirected sex drive isn't a cork of ex experience. It's
37:21
Speaker 1: another way of saying being horny, which can afflict anyone.
37:24
Speaker 1: Because horny nous does not need to include sexual attraction.
37:28
Speaker 1: Imagine a gay man with a high sex drive surrounded
37:31
Speaker 1: by women. It is possible for him to fill horny
37:34
Speaker 1: and want to get laid even if he's not interested
37:36
Speaker 1: in anyone around him. Sexual attraction then is horning this
37:40
Speaker 1: toward or caused by a specific person. It is the
37:42
Speaker 1: desire to be sexual with that partner, libido with a target.
37:47
Speaker 1: To use a food metaphor, a person can fill physiological hunger,
37:51
Speaker 1: which would be like sex drive, without craving a specific dish,
37:55
Speaker 1: which would be more like sexual attraction. And just as
37:58
Speaker 1: people have different sex drives, they also experienced different levels
38:01
Speaker 1: of sexual attraction. Some aces have a libido and some don't,
38:06
Speaker 1: but we all share the lack of sexual attraction and
38:09
Speaker 1: most of us have low desire for partnered sex. As
38:13
Speaker 1: a side note, it's important to clarify that neither sexual
38:16
Speaker 1: attraction nor sex drive are the same as physical arousal.
38:20
Speaker 1: People can have random erections or be aroused during medical
38:23
Speaker 1: exams with no libido or attraction involved. And by the way,
38:27
Speaker 1: that could also be said, and this is not what
38:29
Speaker 1: she writes. This is me speaking about when rape cases
38:32
Speaker 1: happen and they're talking about being aroused. That is always
38:36
Speaker 1: a conversation, and yes, that is a physiological thing. It
38:40
Speaker 1: is not necessarily sexual attraction or wanting it, yes, yes, um.
38:45
Speaker 1: And we talked about that in our other our pass
38:47
Speaker 1: book Club Come as you Are, And I think that
38:50
Speaker 1: this is a good quote to kind of describe those things.
38:53
Speaker 1: It's like I said, that's one of the number one
38:55
Speaker 1: questions I get, is like, but you mastured it, so
38:59
Speaker 1: you must you must um have some kind of sexual desire.
39:05
Speaker 1: But they are just all these we've gotten all these
39:09
Speaker 1: things tangled up together and they don't need to be
39:12
Speaker 1: and they shouldn't be. And I think, you know when
39:18
Speaker 1: I yeah, I mean this who I've been t m
39:21
Speaker 1: I on this many times, but like when I masturbate,
39:23
Speaker 1: I'm not it's usually because it feels good, and also
39:27
Speaker 1: it's like a release. I can concentrate better, and I'm
39:30
Speaker 1: like almost never ever thinking of somebody, and if I am,
39:34
Speaker 1: it's a fictional character, but it's not. It's not like
39:39
Speaker 1: I saw somebody, I got some turned on and I
39:41
Speaker 1: gotta go to this Like it's just talk about specifically
39:45
Speaker 1: about that too. But a lot of times people are
39:48
Speaker 1: having masturbated because it just feels good in the story,
39:51
Speaker 1: it just feels and if I mean, I know this
39:55
Speaker 1: is probably much bigger conversation, but it feels better than
39:57
Speaker 1: any sex I've ever had, and I would prefer it
40:02
Speaker 1: for the older one who would say that even people
40:05
Speaker 1: who would consider themselves sexual would have that same conversation. Yeah,
40:09
Speaker 1: which is I mean makes sense. And I'm not trying
40:11
Speaker 1: to like throw anybody under the bus here because it
40:13
Speaker 1: just makes sense. You would know your own body better
40:15
Speaker 1: and you figure those things out. And it's also like
40:18
Speaker 1: battery operated easier to communicate you in your head, yes, exactly,
40:24
Speaker 1: and it's just kind of like instinctual, Oh this is
40:27
Speaker 1: where to go. And and I mean, I think people
40:30
Speaker 1: can have amazing sex and can communicate really well and
40:34
Speaker 1: and I'm not trying to say that that doesn't exist,
40:38
Speaker 1: because I totally believe it does. But there are just
40:40
Speaker 1: some things that are easier. It's yourself and yeah, you
40:43
Speaker 1: know what you want and you don't have to really
40:44
Speaker 1: try to communicate that because the words can be tricky
40:46
Speaker 1: and explain it can be tricky. Right. Here's another quote.
41:03
Speaker 1: In fact, demi sexuality and gray sexuality not only can
41:06
Speaker 1: describe aloes, they actually referred to many who could technically
41:09
Speaker 1: be considered alo a. Sexuality is about who you're sexually
41:12
Speaker 1: attracted to. No one demi sexuality described the conditions under
41:16
Speaker 1: which someone developed sexual attraction after an emotional bond is formed,
41:19
Speaker 1: and gray a sexuality can be about how often someone
41:22
Speaker 1: developed sexual attraction rarely as possibility. Pan sexual and demisexual,
41:26
Speaker 1: are gray a heterosexual, or any number of other combinations.
41:30
Speaker 1: And I want to include that because I think there
41:32
Speaker 1: was a lot of interesting things that was brought up
41:35
Speaker 1: through interviews in that chapter. There was one point about
41:39
Speaker 1: hookup culture and overall sexualization that maybe kind of an
41:43
Speaker 1: anxiety that these terms, these labels were being used for
41:47
Speaker 1: people who basically thought that the level of sex they
41:51
Speaker 1: should want they weren't there, and that as a society
41:54
Speaker 1: we've just been totally hyper sexualized and oversexualized, and so
41:59
Speaker 1: they thought that maybe something was and very heavy quotes
42:03
Speaker 1: wrong with them, or they weren't on the same level
42:06
Speaker 1: of people, and maybe that's just a cultural thing they've internalized.
42:11
Speaker 1: And then there's also the interesting point of people using
42:16
Speaker 1: these labels but really they were just being jack it's
42:22
Speaker 1: about it and having anxieties around that of like and
42:27
Speaker 1: I'm being very general and stereotypical here, but kind of
42:30
Speaker 1: you know, like the man who says he is like
42:33
Speaker 1: a romantic and and all this stuff and then treats
42:36
Speaker 1: you like like that's not cool. Don't treat people terribly.
42:42
Speaker 1: So I understand all those anxieties, and I think, again,
42:45
Speaker 1: this book does a really good job of like it's complicated, um,
42:51
Speaker 1: and people have acted in ways that are cruel to
42:56
Speaker 1: other people that can unforeinately sometimes sort of aligne with
43:01
Speaker 1: how people understand or think that these labels what they mean,
43:05
Speaker 1: which isn't necessarily the case at all, but just what
43:09
Speaker 1: people think. Like if you, I think of her a
43:11
Speaker 1: lot of women, if you met a guy who said, like,
43:14
Speaker 1: I'm not into romance, even if he did identify that way,
43:17
Speaker 1: you would immediately have kind of like a tensing up
43:19
Speaker 1: of oh, he means like he just wants to tree
43:24
Speaker 1: use me and then throw me away or something, which
43:27
Speaker 1: I'm again generalizations. I know that you can be a
43:30
Speaker 1: romantic man and not be like that, but I think
43:32
Speaker 1: that's like the anxiety um that people have. Yeah, it
43:36
Speaker 1: labels in general make people nervous all kinds of ways.
43:39
Speaker 1: And and then we also see people who are being
43:41
Speaker 1: dicks about the fact that labels can be important in
43:44
Speaker 1: that you need, you want to identify yourself, you you
43:47
Speaker 1: need to know about yourself, which I know is like
43:50
Speaker 1: a lightbulb moment for many of people. And we've got
43:53
Speaker 1: we're kind of seeing this and I don't think she's
43:55
Speaker 1: she's definitely didn't really mention this, but like with the
43:58
Speaker 1: pronoun stuff, and we have the right coming in and
44:01
Speaker 1: going real hardcore and being like, how dare you do this?
44:04
Speaker 1: Because now you're categorizing in or whatever, making me see
44:08
Speaker 1: something that I don't want to see, or making me
44:10
Speaker 1: acknowledge something that I don't want to acknowledge type of
44:12
Speaker 1: conversation as well, and it's it's kind of like, well,
44:15
Speaker 1: it's not for your son down, yes for sure. Yeah,
44:23
Speaker 1: So going on with more quotes. Sexuality is more than
44:26
Speaker 1: sexual orientation, and attraction is more than sexual attraction, Yet
44:30
Speaker 1: humans can act as though sexual interest is the only
44:33
Speaker 1: reason we find ourselves compelled by others. Aesthetic attraction can
44:38
Speaker 1: guide romantic attraction, or the feeling of being romantically interested
44:42
Speaker 1: in or having a crush on someone. Romantic orientation then
44:45
Speaker 1: denotes the gender that people usually develop crushes on. These
44:51
Speaker 1: use the same linguistic constructions as sexual orientations, swapping out
44:55
Speaker 1: the sexual part head a romantic pan romantic, homo romantic,
44:59
Speaker 1: and so on. People who don't experience romantic attraction towards
45:03
Speaker 1: anyone are called a romantic or arrow. The concepts of
45:06
Speaker 1: a romanticism and a sexuality developed alongside each other, so
45:11
Speaker 1: arrows have long been part of the ACE community, though
45:14
Speaker 1: some people are a romantic and not a sexual. Yes,
45:19
Speaker 1: which the one asked me if I was well, And
45:22
Speaker 1: that's something else I had no idea about until I
45:24
Speaker 1: started on this show, right, that was new to look
45:27
Speaker 1: it up. I was like, is that a thing like,
45:31
Speaker 1: you know, well into my adult life, and that's I
45:35
Speaker 1: identify personally as by real bantic. But it is nice
45:39
Speaker 1: to know because I would feel like attraction to both
45:43
Speaker 1: Luke and Leah and be very confused by it. But
45:46
Speaker 1: then I want nothing like sexual and I'm like, how
45:48
Speaker 1: is this happening at all? Right? Right now? I know?
45:52
Speaker 1: There you go. Something else that Chen goes into in
45:55
Speaker 1: this book is religion, which is something we talked about
45:58
Speaker 1: a lot in this show, and how that impacts views
46:02
Speaker 1: on sex and and morality, and how not wanting sex
46:07
Speaker 1: can feel old fashioned and conservative. You know, this whole
46:10
Speaker 1: idea of not wanting to feel repressed, wanting to feel liberated,
46:13
Speaker 1: and that's something I really identify with, I really connected with,
46:16
Speaker 1: and yeah, I just feel and I talked about this
46:20
Speaker 1: briefly because I'm so happy that we're finally talking about
46:23
Speaker 1: women having sex and liking sex and wanting sex. I
46:25
Speaker 1: think that's great, but I think it has gotten kind
46:28
Speaker 1: of like tied to that means you're liberated and if
46:32
Speaker 1: you don't want that, then you're not. And I think
46:34
Speaker 1: that also is changing. And again, it is another thing
46:38
Speaker 1: that is complicated because of the patriarchy and and things
46:42
Speaker 1: like religion, which of course the patriarchy touches. But yeah,
46:46
Speaker 1: it's sort of where's the whole chapter about? Is a
46:49
Speaker 1: religious aspect of this and this assumption that everyone struggles
46:52
Speaker 1: with sexual desire and religious text is kind of a
46:54
Speaker 1: lot of in a lot of ways, the heart of
46:56
Speaker 1: a lot of religion is that the idea that everyone
47:00
Speaker 1: struggles with this and you have to be chased and
47:03
Speaker 1: withhold hold back from your desire until you are married
47:07
Speaker 1: and then you know, have kids and that's it. Speaking
47:10
Speaker 1: of which, there has been this viral video recently of
47:14
Speaker 1: this dude who decided to approach several eighteen year old
47:17
Speaker 1: girls on the beach to tell them that they are
47:21
Speaker 1: causing mendicine and they need to think about their life.
47:24
Speaker 1: And what they're doing is they're dressing like sluts and
47:26
Speaker 1: they need to get it together. Oh yeah, because he's
47:30
Speaker 1: like he said, my son's out here, my family is
47:32
Speaker 1: trying to enjoy somethings, and all they can see is
47:34
Speaker 1: your bikinis. And by the way, they're normal bikinis. Like
47:37
Speaker 1: that it matters, not that it matters at all, Like
47:40
Speaker 1: they can be wearing jeez jeans and whatever whatnot and
47:43
Speaker 1: enjoy your life, do your thing. But they were just
47:46
Speaker 1: regularly wearing regular bikinis. They look great. Go ahead, enjoy it,
47:51
Speaker 1: love your life. You look wonderful. Enjoy that body. But
47:56
Speaker 1: and it went viral to the point that all the
47:58
Speaker 1: people were like, what the hell is wrong with you?
48:00
Speaker 1: And he came and decided to come back with a
48:02
Speaker 1: video is saying that he was, you know, a god
48:04
Speaker 1: fearing man and he was doing the work of God
48:07
Speaker 1: and just wanted to let this and he tried to
48:09
Speaker 1: be real cool. I just wanted them to protect them
48:11
Speaker 1: and let them know that you know, this is really
48:13
Speaker 1: harmful into what Jesus loves them more than that essentially, Yeah,
48:19
Speaker 1: to say he got fired and then he got chastise
48:21
Speaker 1: and he's been reamed over the coals repeatedly has been
48:24
Speaker 1: a delight. But anyway, but I think stuff like that,
48:31
Speaker 1: And again, we talked about it when I was talking
48:33
Speaker 1: about the murders that happened in Atlanta, the shootings that
48:36
Speaker 1: happened in Atlanta. This conversation causes a lot of violence
48:40
Speaker 1: in general when we talk about morality, but it also
48:43
Speaker 1: causes a lot of like fear and just again this
48:47
Speaker 1: whole conversation of like am I normal? Am I supposed
48:49
Speaker 1: to be feeling this? So if I'm not trying to
48:51
Speaker 1: be religious and I'm not trying to be and I'm
48:53
Speaker 1: trying to go forward in the feminist movement and me
48:56
Speaker 1: saying I don't want sex and my doing the wrong
48:59
Speaker 1: thing because I'm not, you know, liberated again like she says.
49:02
Speaker 1: And I think that's a big conversation because we have
49:05
Speaker 1: one extreme or the other. Is there either you have
49:07
Speaker 1: to completely chase or you have to be you know,
49:10
Speaker 1: raging and and constantly turning over partners. You know, there's
49:14
Speaker 1: not this middle ground of just being just being and
49:20
Speaker 1: just being happy to be what they were and who
49:22
Speaker 1: who they are and not wanting this, and then you
49:24
Speaker 1: go on into like, yeah, that it's both good and
49:28
Speaker 1: bad when it comes to relationships and what it is
49:32
Speaker 1: expected under the misogynistic idea of what marriage is supposed
49:35
Speaker 1: to be. When we look at the religious conservative religious
49:39
Speaker 1: ideas of what marriage is and how damaging it is
49:42
Speaker 1: for one or the other, and it's such a weird
49:45
Speaker 1: conversation because yeah, it doesn't feel like there's much of
49:47
Speaker 1: a common like a middle ground or a no ground situation. Yeah, yeah,
49:53
Speaker 1: and I think that's something we can we should all
49:58
Speaker 1: examine perhaps and maybe we'll come back and do another
50:00
Speaker 1: episode on it one day. But there's just a lot
50:02
Speaker 1: of judgments around if people are having sex, in the
50:06
Speaker 1: type of sex they're having, so like, even if maybe
50:10
Speaker 1: you are having sex but it is quote, you know, boring, right,
50:15
Speaker 1: but maybe that's fine with you, maybe that's what you want.
50:18
Speaker 1: But I feel like there's a lot of judgment around
50:20
Speaker 1: that and like how much sex you are having. And
50:22
Speaker 1: I do think it has a lot to do with
50:27
Speaker 1: this history of the patriarchy and repressing women and not
50:30
Speaker 1: letting women be sexual and not letting women have pleasure,
50:32
Speaker 1: and so we do have a lot of concern around
50:36
Speaker 1: that and anxiety around that, but the fact is those
50:39
Speaker 1: things can exist and that might be what somebody wants,
50:42
Speaker 1: and again it can change, Yeah, it can change. And
50:46
Speaker 1: that's kind of part to that is um, this whole
50:48
Speaker 1: level of duty and that that's a conversation we need
50:51
Speaker 1: to call. Like we've talked about many times, but how
50:54
Speaker 1: that stigma also really really hurts everything everything and this
50:59
Speaker 1: obligation and in this whole narrative of again your sex,
51:03
Speaker 1: women's sex, just saying it as this is something to
51:06
Speaker 1: be a prized and then gifted to those worthy. So
51:10
Speaker 1: if you're gifting to those who are worthy, that means
51:13
Speaker 1: you can't deny it because it's a gift, you know
51:16
Speaker 1: what I mean. And so that's just both of those things.
51:19
Speaker 1: And to slow it down, it's become a running joke
51:22
Speaker 1: obviously and like the once you get married you stop
51:24
Speaker 1: having sex. That especially to the points like I'm very
51:28
Speaker 1: confused why, like like as a kid watching this conversation
51:31
Speaker 1: and this constant joke that I'm like, don't get it,
51:35
Speaker 1: what's happening? And I get it, but like having that, Yeah,
51:39
Speaker 1: people sex drive changes and there's a lot of again,
51:43
Speaker 1: like I talked about my job and we know that
51:44
Speaker 1: the outside narratives and then feeling that guilt not only
51:47
Speaker 1: for those, it's just I think for everyone if you
51:50
Speaker 1: can't keep up with that and feeling like, okay, well
51:53
Speaker 1: I'm not normal now, you know. Yeah, that's a that's
51:59
Speaker 1: a good point because that's just another example of this assumption,
52:04
Speaker 1: which I know we're going to talk about that more
52:05
Speaker 1: later too, but the assumption that this is like sex
52:10
Speaker 1: is the best thing and you should be getting it
52:12
Speaker 1: all the time and it should be great and the best,
52:16
Speaker 1: and if you're not, then something's wrong or you're boring
52:20
Speaker 1: or like all these things that we assume about people
52:24
Speaker 1: like that. But it's just assumed that that that's what
52:27
Speaker 1: you should want. And it is a joke like once
52:31
Speaker 1: you get married. The fact that it's a joke that
52:33
Speaker 1: once you get married, all of a sudden it's usually
52:34
Speaker 1: the woman doesn't want to have sex anymore. That we
52:39
Speaker 1: should question why that is why? Very much question why
52:43
Speaker 1: that is my name? Mini? Alright? Yes, and going on
52:48
Speaker 1: with more quotes because we love it. None of this
52:52
Speaker 1: aligned with my goals, She writes. The words used to
52:56
Speaker 1: describe women who didn't have sex celibate, absolute pure chase
53:00
Speaker 1: seemed either clinical or moralistic in a way. I disdained
53:04
Speaker 1: the words used to describe women who did free empower
53:07
Speaker 1: bold I liked and wanted to apply to me down.
53:12
Speaker 1: A few people would explicitly say that sexually conservative women
53:15
Speaker 1: are wildflowers, but popular culture made it that insinuation clear,
53:19
Speaker 1: and so I had a vague, unquestioned feeling that the
53:23
Speaker 1: women who pursue sex are more fun and feminists in
53:26
Speaker 1: the women who don't. Yeah, And I think that's really
53:28
Speaker 1: interesting that's what she writes, because also there's that opposite
53:32
Speaker 1: within the feminist group. Yeah, you want to say that's
53:36
Speaker 1: free empower bold, but within outside of that, that's a
53:39
Speaker 1: slut or any of those narratives. Again, as we talked
53:42
Speaker 1: about that, dude, So it's kind of interesting that that's
53:44
Speaker 1: how she saw it. But it is that narrative, like
53:47
Speaker 1: you want to fit in, So what structure do you
53:50
Speaker 1: want to fit in? Yeah? I I find that dichotomy
53:53
Speaker 1: interesting as well, because there's the version of, you know,
53:58
Speaker 1: for so long a woman who's actually liberated it has
54:00
Speaker 1: been called a slut or a horror or like even
54:02
Speaker 1: just you know, might have had sex once that can
54:05
Speaker 1: be thrown lobbed at her. But in feminess circles, it's
54:10
Speaker 1: it's more like, yeah, girl, you get you have that sex,
54:13
Speaker 1: which is great. Again, all for it, but it does
54:16
Speaker 1: once again rely on this assumption that that equals empowerment
54:21
Speaker 1: and and a liberated woman, which it does in some ways,
54:25
Speaker 1: but it's not the only way that it can. Here
54:30
Speaker 1: is another quote. My ideas about the humiliation of repression
54:33
Speaker 1: and the meaning of liberated sexuality did not come from nowhere.
54:36
Speaker 1: For so long, women have been encouraged to deny our
54:38
Speaker 1: sexual needs and instead serve the needs of men. Are
54:40
Speaker 1: worth is tied to sex. We are sexualized until we
54:43
Speaker 1: are too old, get shamed and police for being sexual,
54:46
Speaker 1: ourselves prevented from exploring what we desire, are allowed to desire.
54:49
Speaker 1: This is doubly true if the women in question aren't straight.
54:53
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's kind of going off of what you
54:54
Speaker 1: were saying, Samantha. That is just once again, you cannot win.
54:57
Speaker 1: You cannot win, no matter what it. And I want
55:01
Speaker 1: to include this because I did feel this as well,
55:03
Speaker 1: especially when I came into work on a feminist podcast.
55:06
Speaker 1: I was like, oh no, I have to keep this
55:08
Speaker 1: to myself, like I gotta be loud and proud about
55:12
Speaker 1: go having sex, women, go get it, which I am.
55:17
Speaker 1: And I was like that in high school too, because
55:19
Speaker 1: I wanted to fit in. I wanted to be normal
55:22
Speaker 1: and heavy quotes and I did. I wanted people. I
55:26
Speaker 1: wanted women or any marginalized group to have sex that
55:29
Speaker 1: they wanted and it'd be fine. But and that does
55:32
Speaker 1: get all mixed up with this sort of the patriarchy
55:35
Speaker 1: and feminism and assumptions around sex. But I will say
55:40
Speaker 1: for me, and I don't think that this is a
55:42
Speaker 1: healthy thought either, but I experienced almost the opposite of
55:47
Speaker 1: this whole thing where I It's hard to describe, but
55:52
Speaker 1: I guess I thought sex was degrading for women because
55:57
Speaker 1: it had been for so long been about men's pleasure,
56:00
Speaker 1: and to me it seemed and that this was also
56:06
Speaker 1: really uninformed about like what I saw on corn and
56:09
Speaker 1: in movies and stuff. But to me, it just seemed
56:11
Speaker 1: like the woman was apprised to be one and the
56:14
Speaker 1: man won in my sexual encounter and the woman lost.
56:18
Speaker 1: So I experienced almost this opposite thing. And that's also
56:20
Speaker 1: because I wasn't where I grew up. You know they
56:23
Speaker 1: were feminist people, but that conversation was not being had,
56:27
Speaker 1: So I didn't really have that sort of like empowered
56:32
Speaker 1: narrative as much as I as I do now as
56:36
Speaker 1: I hear now. But for me, I just and I
56:39
Speaker 1: would hear my friends talk about uh, sex they were
56:42
Speaker 1: having and how how much they enjoyed it, and I
56:45
Speaker 1: was like, my brain could not get on board. And
56:50
Speaker 1: and I just thought that was interesting that for me
56:52
Speaker 1: it was like the opposite where I was like, I'm
56:53
Speaker 1: never having sex with a man because the patriarchy. So
56:58
Speaker 1: it's like a different form of someone of not not
57:02
Speaker 1: good feminism, but you know, kind of this really misinformed
57:05
Speaker 1: understanding of it. And uh, I don't know. I just
57:09
Speaker 1: thought I was I was intrigued by our different experiences
57:13
Speaker 1: around that. I think it's interesting too because I feel
57:16
Speaker 1: the same way as you did. It's it's always been
57:19
Speaker 1: about power. It's all about men gaining power taking something
57:22
Speaker 1: and women are just prizes essentially, uh. And I grew up.
57:26
Speaker 1: I grew up with that and like that's what we
57:27
Speaker 1: learned in high school. That's what we hear guys saying,
57:30
Speaker 1: and like having brothers and kind of talking about you know,
57:34
Speaker 1: so and so did this is so and so, and
57:35
Speaker 1: it was always the girls a slut, and the dude
57:37
Speaker 1: obviously was the one pressuring. And that was that conversation
57:40
Speaker 1: I grew up with and understanding, this is what happens.
57:43
Speaker 1: Oh no, I don't want that. I don't. Every time
57:45
Speaker 1: I'd hear a story about something happening between a couple,
57:48
Speaker 1: the girl is always, you know, something happening, whether she's
57:51
Speaker 1: forced to do something or whether they do something that's
57:53
Speaker 1: gross to like, always an added to humiliate the woman,
57:58
Speaker 1: and then including like oral sex and having blow jobs
58:02
Speaker 1: on any of that to me was the most degrading
58:04
Speaker 1: of all things, because that made women seem nothing but
58:09
Speaker 1: the vessel. Yeah, I don't know, like orpheus, I guess,
58:14
Speaker 1: I don't know, for something just for a male pleasure only,
58:18
Speaker 1: that's what it seemed. And to me, that was one
58:20
Speaker 1: of the most humiliating things that you could think of.
58:23
Speaker 1: And so that was the biggest joke for anything that
58:27
Speaker 1: happened within high school, teenagers or whatever. Like. Of course
58:30
Speaker 1: it's not sex, but it's still something that men can
58:33
Speaker 1: have and therefore used women even more so That's that's
58:37
Speaker 1: what it seemed, and it wasn't until Sex in the City.
58:41
Speaker 1: They kind of turned that perspective from me when they
58:44
Speaker 1: talk about again, it's still that power dynamics, but how
58:48
Speaker 1: it can be pleasurable, how it's not pleasurable, and all
58:50
Speaker 1: these things. Because it literally goes from one character saying
58:53
Speaker 1: she doesn't like it, she doesn't want it, she doesn't
58:55
Speaker 1: want to do it, and that ended their relationship to
58:58
Speaker 1: another character talking about I like sometimes I would yeah,
59:01
Speaker 1: like literally says I'll order it off the menu every
59:03
Speaker 1: now and again, yeah, and talking about how you know,
59:07
Speaker 1: things have been changing and how that can be a
59:10
Speaker 1: thing for women to enjoy as well. This again negates
59:15
Speaker 1: all of the love and romance and trust and communication
59:19
Speaker 1: in a relationship that can happen in that too, which
59:21
Speaker 1: we want to come back to in general. But like, yeah,
59:25
Speaker 1: I write with you, or like this is degrading, and
59:28
Speaker 1: this is what it means. But it also came with
59:29
Speaker 1: that misogynistic idea of my virginity is my prize and
59:35
Speaker 1: I must not give it unless say, are worthy, right, right.
59:38
Speaker 1: And I have had friends where I've had this discussion,
59:42
Speaker 1: this very discussion with them, and they'll they'll tell me, like,
59:44
Speaker 1: you know, I get real pleasure out of like really
59:47
Speaker 1: bringing someone like to the edge and like having being
59:50
Speaker 1: in control of that pleasure for them. And I totally
59:54
Speaker 1: get that, but yeah, these formative ideas I had are
59:58
Speaker 1: these really misinformed ideas I had at the beginning that
1:00:01
Speaker 1: I was. Yeah, I thought it was degrading, And I
1:00:04
Speaker 1: think that also says something about great culture and the
1:00:08
Speaker 1: media we consume and how sex is often portrayed that
1:00:13
Speaker 1: that's what I thought it looks like, And it's never
1:00:15
Speaker 1: about the woman's pleasure ever, or if it is, it's
1:00:18
Speaker 1: only like we talked about as a way for the
1:00:20
Speaker 1: man to be like, look how good I am? Yeah,
1:00:24
Speaker 1: still about him. Okay, So, because we went so far
1:00:27
Speaker 1: off the rails on this one, we're gonna we're gonna
1:00:30
Speaker 1: have to break this one up into two our first
1:00:33
Speaker 1: book club two partner. Yes, So keep an ear out
1:00:39
Speaker 1: and eye out for part two soon. But in the meantime,
1:00:43
Speaker 1: if you have any suggestions for book club, or or
1:00:47
Speaker 1: any suggestions at all, we love to hear them. You
1:00:49
Speaker 1: can email as a stuff media mom Stuff at iHeart
1:00:51
Speaker 1: media dot com. You can find us on Twitter at
1:00:53
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at Stuff I've Never
1:00:55
Speaker 1: Told you I thinks it's always to a super producer, Christina,
1:00:58
Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening stuff I
1:01:01
Speaker 1: never told these production of I Heart Radio. For more
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