Latest / Voddie Baucham Sermons / Voddie Baucham - TS&TT Fault Lines, Sphere Sovereignty & Christian Nationalism

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Voddie Baucham - TS&TT Fault Lines, Sphere Sovereignty & Christian Nationalism · Voddie Baucham Sermons

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to The Sword in the Trowel. The Sword in
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: the Trowel is a podcast of Founders Ministries. And today,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Tom and I have the privilege of being able to
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: have a conversation with Dr. Voddie Bauckham regarding some new
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: curriculum that is coming out based upon his book, Fault Lines.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: It's a wonderful conversation in which we're able to discuss
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: not just that curriculum, but also the ideas that come
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: out of his book, Fault Lines, how they apply to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the world that we're living in today as Christians. And
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: then we also go on to talk about some important
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: issues when it comes to public theology and political theology.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: But before we get started in the conversation, we want
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: you to watch this brief clip which describes the curriculum
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: that is coming forth.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: I wrote Fault Lines because of my love for the church.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: We're doing this project because of love for the church.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: I honestly believe that the critical social justice movement represents
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: a threat, an existential threat. Not a threat to Christianity
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: per se, because Christianity can't be threatened. God is on
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: his throne. He will protect his bride. However, it represents
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: a threat to unity within the body. We got to
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: act like that the disadvantages between us are cultural and
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: are not systemic.
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: Then we can't be together.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Critical race theorists want to deliver us from the basement
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: low ambitions of a thin, emaciated view of equality. It
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: represents a threat to the clarity of the message that
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: we communicate.
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: Whiteness becomes the standard by which all good theology is judged.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: Whiteness is rooted in plunder, in theft, in slavery, genocide
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: of Native Americans sitting on stolen land.
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: So that if it's right theology is written by a
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: white scholar who is contextualizing that theology for white audiences.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: The gospel will always be the gospel. However, we are
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: not always faithful in the way that we communicate the gospel.
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: Because silence is too high price to pay to be
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: unified when our necks are under a police name.
• 2:16
  Speaker 5: The anti-racists fundamentally reject savior theology. That goes right in
• 2:23
  Speaker 5: line with racist ideas and racist theology.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: We're not always faithful in the way that we apply
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: the gospel.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: When you sign up for this congregation, You're signing up
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: to be part of racial justice.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: And if that's not for you, then this church is
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: not for you.
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: The solution is fundamentally, yes, the gospel, the cross, the resurrection,
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: but also dethroning white supremacy in all of the forms
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: in which it shows up in Christian spaces.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: So the goal here is to fight for faithfulness, to
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: fight for the truth of that gospel, to fight for
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: the bride of Christ. to fight for unity in the
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: bride of Christ.
• 3:06
  Speaker 6: It's a breakthrough if you can get white people to
• 3:08
  Speaker 6: acknowledge that our race privileges us in this society. That
• 3:12
  Speaker 6: is like the second coming.
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: Virtually no white man thinks they are guilty. You have
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: to push and push and push to the.
• 3:20
  Speaker 7: Point where, hey, wait a minute, I think you're pushing
• 3:23
  Speaker 7: an agenda.
• 3:24
  Speaker 6: Well, you're finally listening. My psychosocial development was inculcated in
• 3:29
  Speaker 6: the water of white supremacy. I have grown up with
• 3:33
  Speaker 6: this invisible kind of bag of privilege.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: Like, I am a racist.
• 3:40
  Speaker 6: A system in which whiteness and white people are central issues.
• 3:44
  Speaker 6: and seen as inherently superior to people of color.
• 3:48
  Speaker 7: I'm going to struggle with racism and white supremacy until
• 3:50
  Speaker 7: the day I die and get my glorified body.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: What I'm talking about right now is white privilege.
• 3:56
  Speaker 7: Because I'm immersed in a culture where I benefit from
• 3:59
  Speaker 7: racism all the time.
• 4:01
  Speaker 6: Nothing makes Anglos more angry than the idea of white privilege.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: The Bible is very clear about the issue of justice.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: What does the Lord require of you to Do justice,
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: love mercy, walk humbly with your God. We know this
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: from Micah 6.8. And so justice is not optional for
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: the people of God. That's why it's so critical that
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: we understand what justice is. One of the dangers of
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: the social justice movement is that it uses terminology that
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: on the surface sounds like it ought to be what
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: we as Christians are about. Social justice. Am I against justice?
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Of course not. I'm for justice. Anti-racism. Am I pro-racism?
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Of course not. So what we need to do is
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: get behind these terms. Get behind these words and look
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: at two things. Number one, look at what people mean
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: when they use them in this cultural moment. And number two,
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: evaluate that in light of what the Bible says about
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: the same issues. So, for example, when we talk about
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: justice from a biblical perspective, justice means the righteous application,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: the impartial application of the law of God in a
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: given circumstance. We're told that we're not to be impartial
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: to the poor or to the rich. We have to
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: apply God's law equally across the board. Social justice means
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: something very different. And so if we're going to have
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: conversations about justice, if we're going to have conversations about
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: contemporary issues of our day, we're going to have to
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: do so in light of what the Word of God
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: has to teach about all of these issues and while
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: evaluating the cultural moment. you know, I've come a long
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: way on a lot of these issues. Um, I am
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: a guy who, uh, had as probably the biggest hero
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: of my life, um, Malcolm X. Uh, I am a
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: guy who was always, um, very Afro centric, um, very,
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: you could say social justice oriented as a believer. Um,
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: I came to a crossroads and I recognized that for
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: the most part, I identified a lot more with my
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: blackness than I did with my Christianity. For the most part,
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: it was much more important to me that I was
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: black than it was that I was Christian. Over time,
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: I had to come to grips with the fact that
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: in Christ, at the foot of the cross, There is
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: no male or female. There is no Jew or Greek,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: slave or free. Over time, I had to come to
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: grips with the fact that Christ died not only to
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: reconcile us vertically to the Father, but to reconcile us
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: horizontally with one another. And that I am a member
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: of the body of Christ. And that nothing supersedes that.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Nothing is more important. And it is that realization and
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: my desire to see that unity manifested within the body
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: of Christ. If you're doing this study with a group,
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: my hope is that this would be a place where
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: you can be open, where you can be honest, a
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: place where you can evaluate the narratives that are flying
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: all around you, And a place where you can judge
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: those things. Not according to your feelings. But according to
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: the truth of the scriptures. According to what thus saith
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  Speaker 2: the Lord. I do believe that justice is incredibly important.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: But justice is only important to the degree that it
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: is the justice that God demands. To that end. We
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: have to be right about what the word justice means
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: and about what God requires of his people in this
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: critical moment.
• 8:52
  Speaker 7: Voting men, thank you for joining us all the way
• 8:54
  Speaker 7: from Lusaka, Zambia. And that clip, that first little bit
• 8:59
  Speaker 7: of this new curriculum is excellent. It's really, I think,
• 9:03
  Speaker 7: going to be wonderfully useful. Tell us a little bit
• 9:05
  Speaker 7: about the genesis of that project. I mean, your book
• 9:09
  Speaker 7: just did great, sold like wildfire all across the nation
• 9:12
  Speaker 7: and the world. And why this curriculum? How did you
• 9:15
  Speaker 7: come about the idea to do that?
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: You know, a lot of people forget, but my first book,
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: The Ever-Learning Truth, was also accompanied by a curriculum. And
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: I haven't done, you know, curriculum since then. I've wanted to.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: I've always wanted to ever since then. And so we
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: started brainstorming about this in Salem, Pennsylvania. gave us the
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: green light. We put the team together and made the project.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: It came out better than any of us could have expected.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: But I get excited about, you know, a tool like
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: this to help people get deeper into the book, into
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: the message. of the book, or to help people who,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe haven't gotten into the book to at
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: least be introduced to the overall message of the book
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: and to help people, you know, get together and work
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: through and have discussions about the material. I think that's
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: healthy and I think it's fruitful and I'm excited about
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: the opportunity to do that with this project.
• 10:19
  Speaker 8: Good.
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  Speaker 7: You know, we've used fault lines and encouraged folks to
• 10:22
  Speaker 7: read it, and it's been clarifying for a lot of
• 10:25
  Speaker 7: people that I know. And I've gotten feedback from folks
• 10:29
  Speaker 7: when we've distributed the book through founders. I think we
• 10:32
  Speaker 7: had 200, 300 books or something like that, copies we got,
• 10:35
  Speaker 7: that we tried to make available immediately once it was released.
• 10:39
  Speaker 7: And it's been great feedback from folks. And people just say, man,
• 10:43
  Speaker 7: you know, we didn't understand the issue so clearly.
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: We didn't know who the players were.
• 10:48
  Speaker 7: And the way God helped you to assess the lay
• 10:51
  Speaker 7: of the land in the evangelical world and to show
• 10:54
  Speaker 7: how the world has been influencing evangelicalism in these areas
• 11:01
  Speaker 7: with these various ideologies. And it's creating some, it's revealed
• 11:05
  Speaker 7: some real problems.
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: It was great. It's sad. It had to be a
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: sad book to write, I'm sure, for you.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it really was. I mean, it wasn't something that
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: I was just rejoicing over the whole time. It was burdensome,
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: but absolutely necessary. And it's still sad to see these divides,
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: to see these fault lines, but they're also clarifying. And
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  Speaker 2: that which divides also unifies, right? It makes it clearer
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: what side of the divide we're on and divide with us.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: And so we hope that things don't remain divided, right?
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  Speaker 2: We hope that we can be winsome and we hope that,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: you know, we can experience and see reconciliation. But none
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: of that's going to happen unless there's clarity first. Yeah.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: You know, I was struck as we were watching that
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: clip and some of the quotes that come from some
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: of the people there. It seems like this battle was
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: raging most hotly 2018, 2019, 2020. And a lot of
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: it has, uh, kind of simmered down a little bit,
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: you know, you don't hear some of those same ideas, um,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: when it comes to like critical social justice and stuff
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: like that as, as loudly in the conservative evangelical church
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: as you did in those years. And Tom and I
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: were talking earlier, you know, it's not as if it's
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: gone away though, you know, it's just less popular to
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: talk about it in those terms. And I think largely
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: because of the book that you've written and because of
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: some of the other stuff that other ministries have done, um,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: But we would be foolish to think that nobody in
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: the conservative evangelical church thinks like that anymore. And it's
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: something that we don't need to continue to address and
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: continually try to eradicate from evangelicalism.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you make a very important point. And
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: that is that this stuff was very loud back then.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: And one of the reasons it was so loud is because...
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: there was very little pushback. And much of the pushback was,
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: you know, immediately dismissed. You're a racist, you know, you're whatever.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: But then there was a great deal of pushback that came,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: you know, almost like another tidal wave. And it is
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: as though, you know, when these ideas were finally brought
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: to light And when people could no longer shame the
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: opposition into not calling them out, that it sort of
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: went underground. But what I want people to understand is
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: that the ideologies that we're talking about, these neo-Marxist ideologies, right,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: this oppressor-oppressed paradigm, you know, this hegemonic power that oppresses,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: you need to know that the LGBTQIA plus movement is
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: running the exact same play. It's rooted in the same ideology.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: So all these things that we're seeing now about gender,
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: these ideas that we've seen about marriage and so on
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: and so forth, they're all coming from the same place.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: All of the things that we're dealing with right now
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: with the border crisis, it all comes from the same place.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Because remember, power, the oppressor is white, male, cisgender, heterosexual, able-bodied, native-born, right?
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: That's part of the hegemony. So yeah, all of these
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: things that we're seeing today are part of the same
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: fault line.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's well put.
• 14:57
  Speaker 7: And I'm reminded of what a professor at one of
• 15:01
  Speaker 7: the prominent seminaries said to one of our guys.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: After he left the seminary. He said, you know what?
• 15:08
  Speaker 7: He said, before he was talking about founders, the Statement
• 15:11
  Speaker 7: on Social Justice came out in 2018.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: You were part of that. I was part of that.
• 15:15
  Speaker 7: Josh Bice and Phil Johnson, a lot of other guys.
• 15:18
  Speaker 7: And that kind of initially shined some light on things.
• 15:22
  Speaker 7: And then the 2019 Southern Baptist Convention, Resolution 9, It
• 15:28
  Speaker 7: highlighted the fact that it passed despite some attempts by
• 15:31
  Speaker 7: Tom Buck, myself, and some others maybe trying to stop it.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: Then people again say, what is this? What is critical
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: race theory and intersectionality?
• 15:39
  Speaker 7: And then the By What Standard documentary that was released
• 15:43
  Speaker 7: at the end of 2019, this former professor was saying,
• 15:46
  Speaker 7: you know, at the seminary, he said, everybody was for
• 15:49
  Speaker 7: CRT until you guys started CRT. talking about it and
• 15:54
  Speaker 7: saying the stuff you said about it. And he was
• 15:56
  Speaker 7: mad because he's a very big proponent of it. And
• 15:59
  Speaker 7: he was accusing us of misrepresenting it. But he said,
• 16:02
  Speaker 7: now then, said nobody's talking about CRT.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Praise God.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, praise God they're not talking about it.
• 16:08
  Speaker 7: But to your point and Bodie's point, the fact that
• 16:11
  Speaker 7: they've just kind of sublimated their vocabulary or their speech,
• 16:16
  Speaker 7: even the good guys who got played by it, if
• 16:18
  Speaker 7: they haven't seen it, and they're not repudiating it, which
• 16:21
  Speaker 7: means for some of them they need to publicly repent
• 16:24
  Speaker 7: for what they did in ushering it in, then the
• 16:27
  Speaker 7: LGBTQ plus and everything else is just going to continue
• 16:30
  Speaker 7: to run that same play.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: But why would you repent if you could just let
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: the news cycle continue on and everyone forget about it,
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: everyone forget what I said and just move on?
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Exactly. But see, we need to understand that's what intersectionality means, right?
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: What are the intersections? It's your ethnicity, and it's your
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: sexual orientation, and it's your gender, and it's your immigration status.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: That's what intersectionality means. So, again, Resolution 9 was on
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: critical race theory and intersectionality. All of these things are
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: included in the intersectional ideology. It was naive. you know,
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: at best for people not to see that.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree.
• 17:27
  Speaker 7: And it's, it is a way of thinking about the
• 17:29
  Speaker 7: world and that way of thinking about the world still
• 17:32
  Speaker 7: exists and sadly still permeates a lot of evangelical.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: Thinking.
• 17:38
  Speaker 7: I just recently saw some documents of a new Christian organization,
• 17:44
  Speaker 7: conservative Christian organization that's being proposed and they've got a
• 17:47
  Speaker 7: whole section on on this, you know, about how the
• 17:50
  Speaker 7: only right way to handle racial issues is to basically
• 17:54
  Speaker 7: buy into this way of viewing the world. And I'm thinking,
• 17:58
  Speaker 7: and these aren't bad guys, you know, these are by
• 18:00
  Speaker 7: and large good guys, but they've just been duped into
• 18:05
  Speaker 7: thinking this is the only way that you can help
• 18:08
  Speaker 7: those who have been oppressed. And it's tragic and it
• 18:11
  Speaker 7: undermines the gospel.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Founders has a few things coming out on the issue
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: of Christian nationalism.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Dr.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Tom Askell has recently written a little pamphlet, a little
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: booklet on the perils and promises of Christian nationalism. That'll
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: be coming out here in the next few weeks, but
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: you can pre-order that now for $ 2. 99, or you can
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: donate a copy to be given away to an SBC
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: attendee at the coming up Southern Baptist Convention in June
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: next month. Also, I just want to remind you of
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: the Founders National Conference that is coming up January 18th
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: through the 20th, 2024. We're going to have wonderful speakers,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: Tom Askell, Conrad Mbewe, Joel Beeky, Phil Johnson, Travis Allen.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: The theme of the conference is Remembering Jesus Christ. It's
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: going to be a wonderful time. It always is a
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: wonderful time. And this year we have Spanish translation and
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: a Spanish live stream will be available for all of
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: our attendees who speak Spanish or Spanish as their first language.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: So we want to make that available to all of
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: our attendees and the people who are going to be
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: live streaming it as well. So spread the word about that,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: that they can take advantage of that opportunity.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: It's fascinating, Vody.
• 19:24
  Speaker 7: We've talked a lot, and you and I participated in
• 19:27
  Speaker 7: a pre-conference on Christian nationalism before the 2023 National Founders Conference,
• 19:33
  Speaker 7: and we did a panel discussion during that. And in
• 19:36
  Speaker 7: some ways, I see a lot of connections between the
• 19:39
  Speaker 7: debates about Christian nationalism and some of the fears and
• 19:43
  Speaker 7: some of the extreme ideas that people are using Christian
• 19:48
  Speaker 7: nationalism to promote. I see connections with what we've lived
• 19:52
  Speaker 7: through with some of these ideologies. Have you thought about that?
• 19:54
  Speaker 7: I mean, you and I have talked about it a
• 19:55
  Speaker 7: little bit, but how do you think the playing field
• 20:01
  Speaker 7: that we're on now is connected to the playing field
• 20:04
  Speaker 7: we were on two or three years ago?
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, one of the things that I like to
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: point out is that you've got to have the triple
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: word score. It's got to be white Christian nationalism. And
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: if you understand intersectionality, and if you understand Gramscian Marxism,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: then you understand that that is identifying three intersections of oppression.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: White people are oppressors. Christians are oppressors. And again, native born, nationalist, right?
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: That's the third interlocking oppression. So it's a Gramscian Marxist
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: triple word score when you include white Christian nationalism. And
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: it's important to understand that the people who are pushing this,
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: not everyone who's pushing this, but when this came in verbiage.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: And now all of a sudden they were saying, here's
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: the hegemonic oppressive boogeyman. And it's the hegemonic oppressive boogeyman
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: who is against our critical theory, critical race theory. So really,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: it was a way for them to run the same play,
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: just sort of a sleight of hand. You know, hey,
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: look over here. You know, while at the same time,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: we all know that there are people, and you alluded
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: to it just now, there and government and the broader culture. So,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: you know, no whole lie is ever going to be
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: able to win the day. It's always got to be,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: you know, the meat of a lie wrapped in the
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: skin of the truth. Amen.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: Amen.
• 22:18
  Speaker 7: And it's sad to see so much division among good people.
• 22:24
  Speaker 7: evangelical brothers and sisters right now over these issues, and
• 22:27
  Speaker 7: I treat it to just a great deal of confusion.
• 22:31
  Speaker 7: We can't afford to live the way we lived 20
• 22:36
  Speaker 7: years ago, 50 years ago. The world has changed, and
• 22:40
  Speaker 7: we talk a lot about Aaron Wren's little paradigm of
• 22:43
  Speaker 7: positive world, neutral world, negative world. Well, we're in the
• 22:46
  Speaker 7: negative world, and if you still are employing the rules
• 22:48
  Speaker 7: of engagement from the neutral world, well, you're just going
• 22:51
  Speaker 7: to get wiped out. And that's exactly, they'll tie your
• 22:54
  Speaker 7: hands and kick you to the curb. And that doesn't
• 22:56
  Speaker 7: mean that we employ their weapons, but it does mean
• 22:59
  Speaker 7: that we need to wake up and see what the
• 23:01
  Speaker 7: Bible has to say about the world we're in today.
• 23:04
  Speaker 7: And brother, you've been involved in cultural apologetics for as
• 23:08
  Speaker 7: long as I've known you. You've studied that and you've
• 23:11
  Speaker 7: tried to engage that. You teach that at the Give
• 23:19
  Speaker 7: us a little kind of overview about Christians. And you're
• 23:23
  Speaker 7: in Zambia, but you're an American. You're an expat, so
• 23:26
  Speaker 7: you're raised here. How should Christians in America think about
• 23:31
  Speaker 7: our roles and our responsibilities in our homes, in our churches,
• 23:36
  Speaker 7: and in our civil arenas?
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: Our responsibility is to be Christians in every sphere. Our
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: responsibility is to press the claims of Christ in every sphere.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: There is no sphere where it is acceptable for us
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: to hide our lamp under a bushel. So in other words,
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: it would be wrong. It would be sinful for me
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: to say, hey, it's an individual in my home. We're
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: going to press the claims of Christ. We're going to
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: press the gospel. We're going to press, you know, Christian,
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: you know, ethics. You know, we're going to do that.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: But then as soon as I get into the public sphere,
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: I am going to act as though Christ has no
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: claim here. And I'm going to act as though there
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: is no benefit or blessing to me pressing the claims
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: of Christ and pressing Christian ethics in this particular sphere.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: That dog won't hunt. Right. And so at the end
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: of the day, regardless of what terminology we use, we
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: have to agree on that. We have to agree that
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: as Christians, we have a duty and an obligation to
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: press the claims of Christ in every sphere in which
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: we operate.
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, amen.
• 24:57
  Speaker 7: We got one of our deacons right now who's been
• 24:59
  Speaker 7: involved with our local school board in trying to evaluate curriculum.
• 25:05
  Speaker 7: And some of the things that he's come across are
• 25:07
  Speaker 7: just hair-raising. And so he has rightly argued this is immoral.
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: This is not right. We should not have this in
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: our schools. Well, praise God.
• 25:17
  Speaker 7: I would be very displeased and disappointed in him if
• 25:21
  Speaker 7: he'd done anything less than that. And he's speaking as
• 25:24
  Speaker 7: a Christian. He's speaking as somebody who knows God and
• 25:28
  Speaker 7: who recognizes the lordship over every area of life. And so, yeah,
• 25:32
  Speaker 7: if you have a Christian governor or if you have
• 25:34
  Speaker 7: a Christian mayor, Christian city council member.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: That can't happen, can it?
• 25:38
  Speaker 7: It can't happen, but it needs to happen with full understanding.
• 25:41
  Speaker 7: They don't check their Christianity at the door.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 25:44
  Speaker 7: And they'll say, well, okay, we're in a pluralistic society,
• 25:46
  Speaker 7: so I've got to not try to be convictional here.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: No, no, that's a dereliction of duty.
• 25:53
  Speaker 8: Let me play the devil's advocate. We expect the Buddhist
• 25:56
  Speaker 8: to be the Buddhist in the public sphere. We expect
• 26:00
  Speaker 8: the Muslim to be the Muslim in the public sphere.
• 26:03
  Speaker 8: It's only the Christian that we expect to check his
• 26:08
  Speaker 8: Christianity in the public sphere.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: That's because the Christian has the truth, and the Christian
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: shouldn't speak the truth.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: In every sphere.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: But if I could play the devil's advocate, I mean,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Jesus says that my kingdom is not of this world.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: And the kingdom of Christ is set up in the
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: hearts of men. And we see the kingdom of Christ
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: particularly manifested in the church. And so is it not
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: inappropriate then that Christians would be going outside of that
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: sphere of the church where there are regenerate men to
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: try to make the rest of the world Christian?
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: You can make that same argument in the home. right?
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: When my children come into my home, you can make
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: that exact same argument, right? That my children are not regenerate,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: so wouldn't it be inappropriate for me to press those
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: claims there? But the other thing is the Great Commission, right?
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: We're commanded in the Great Commission to go into all
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: the world and teach them to observe whatever He's commanded us.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: So no, we can't Again, every sphere where we find ourselves,
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: it is our duty, it is our obligation, it is
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: our great joy to press the claims of Christ.
• 27:23
  Speaker 7: And understanding those spheres means that we're not going to
• 27:25
  Speaker 7: ask the church to do what God's called the family
• 27:28
  Speaker 7: to do. And we're not going to ask the family
• 27:30
  Speaker 7: to do what God's called the church to do. We're
• 27:32
  Speaker 7: not going to ask the state to do what he's
• 27:33
  Speaker 7: called the others to do. But God has called each
• 27:36
  Speaker 7: one to function in certain ways. And every week we
• 27:41
  Speaker 7: pray the Lord's Prayer in our church, and we pray
• 27:43
  Speaker 7: that God's kingdom would come, that his will would be
• 27:46
  Speaker 7: done on earth as it is in heaven. Well, what
• 27:50
  Speaker 7: does that look like? I mean, if that prayer were
• 27:52
  Speaker 7: to be answered, what would it look like in.
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: The civil realm?
• 27:57
  Speaker 7: Would God's will in the civil realm be different than
• 28:01
  Speaker 7: the paganism that we see today?
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Well, of course it would be. And here's the thing.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: When people press this, when people, you know, come against
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: us with this, they're lying. So when you watch, you know,
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: a program on MSNBC and you have an apostate Christian
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: and transgender, I'm thinking about the, I forget her name, Reed.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: I forget her name. But anyway, so she has Jim
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Wallace and And, you know, this transgender person on there,
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: and they're arguing from their Christianity, right? Their self-proclaimed Christianity.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: They're arguing from their view of God. They're arguing from
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: their view of the scriptures. And nobody is saying anything.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Nobody's saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Christian nationalism, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: You're bringing your religion into this. Nobody's saying that. They
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: don't care as long as you don't believe or press
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: the claims of Christ, right? As long as you make
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: Jesus a Marxist, they're more than happy to hear you
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: speak the name of Jesus. So just don't be intimidated.
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: We don't have time for that, right? We don't have
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: time for that. And we need to call this out.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: We need to call the hypocrisy out, you know? Everybody
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: knows that we have no choice but to operate from
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: our theological convictions. The problem is people hate Jesus.
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the bottom line.
• 29:52
  Speaker 7: And the Bible is pretty clear about those who are
• 29:56
  Speaker 7: outside of Christ are his enemies and God is their enemy.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: There's no debating that. That's crystal clear.
• 30:03
  Speaker 7: And yet we lose sight of that because we've had
• 30:06
  Speaker 7: so many benefits in this culture for so long. They
• 30:10
  Speaker 7: are benefits that came from the gospel. And now those
• 30:13
  Speaker 7: benefits have been used up and the guns are being
• 30:16
  Speaker 7: turned on us. And I just sense a real disorientation
• 30:21
  Speaker 7: in the minds of many people who are Christians about
• 30:24
  Speaker 7: And we just need to regain that mindset. No, the
• 30:26
  Speaker 7: most political thing that you can say as a Christian
• 30:29
  Speaker 7: is Jesus is Lord. He's Lord over the critics. He's
• 30:33
  Speaker 7: Lord over the government. He's Lord over the institutions of
• 30:36
  Speaker 7: this world. All the kingdoms of the earth belong to
• 30:38
  Speaker 7: the kingdom of our Christ. Another way that I've tried
• 30:42
  Speaker 7: to think about this practically, and it's interesting, I've gone
• 30:44
  Speaker 7: back and read some things I wrote 20, 25 years ago,
• 30:47
  Speaker 7: and my thinking has developed and it's been sharpened. Back then,
• 30:51
  Speaker 7: I wasn't being... pressed nearly as hard to consider some
• 30:56
  Speaker 7: of the things that I have to consider today as
• 30:58
  Speaker 7: a pastor and trying to shepherd a congregation. But overall,
• 31:02
  Speaker 7: I think the principles were there. I didn't maybe grasp
• 31:04
  Speaker 7: them as clearly as I wish I had and maybe
• 31:07
  Speaker 7: I hope that I do now. But in 1 Timothy
• 31:09
  Speaker 7: chapter 2, when Paul tells us to pray for kings
• 31:12
  Speaker 7: and those in high places so that we might live
• 31:15
  Speaker 7: a peaceful and quiet life in godliness and with dignity,
• 31:19
  Speaker 7: I'm thinking, okay, we should pray for civil leaders so
• 31:25
  Speaker 7: that we can have this kind of life. Well, if
• 31:28
  Speaker 7: we're to pray for people like that so that we
• 31:33
  Speaker 7: can live this kind of life, doesn't it stand to
• 31:36
  Speaker 7: reason that we should work for that as well? Shouldn't
• 31:39
  Speaker 7: we take what opportunities God puts in our hands? And
• 31:42
  Speaker 7: here in America, we've got incredible opportunities. Opportunities they don't
• 31:45
  Speaker 7: have in China. And while we still have them, we
• 31:48
  Speaker 7: ought to use them.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: And what are we praying? That's the other thing. What
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: are we praying Right. If I'm praying for kings and
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: those in authority because of a particular kind of life
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: that I want, then I'm praying for kings and those
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: in authority to do things that line up with God's word. Right.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: How can it be right for me to pray that
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: they will do that, but it not be right for
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: me to work toward those things being done? Exactly. That's
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: just ridiculous.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: It's exactly right.
• 32:23
  Speaker 7: Another thing that, again, I came across, I wrote years
• 32:26
  Speaker 7: ago about citizen kings. That in America, we don't have
• 32:29
  Speaker 7: a king. The citizens are the kings. We're a government
• 32:33
  Speaker 7: of the people, by the people, for the people. And
• 32:35
  Speaker 7: so if we're going to take what the Bible says
• 32:38
  Speaker 7: in the Old Testament about the responsibilities of kings, both
• 32:41
  Speaker 7: pagan and the Israelite kings, if we're going to apply
• 32:45
  Speaker 7: looking for righteousness in those requirements to ourselves... Well, then
• 32:50
  Speaker 7: I ought to want, out of a principle of love
• 32:52
  Speaker 7: for my neighbors, to see good come to them. And
• 32:56
  Speaker 7: I don't love my neighbors if I vote for certain politicians,
• 33:00
  Speaker 7: if I don't stand against certain policies. If I let
• 33:03
  Speaker 7: drag queen story hour go unopposed at our library, I'm
• 33:07
  Speaker 7: not loving our neighbors, and I'm not being the kind
• 33:09
  Speaker 7: of citizen king that I'm obligated to be. Those kind
• 33:14
  Speaker 7: of things to me, I think, are just– they're rooted
• 33:17
  Speaker 7: in good principle– And the application of them, we can
• 33:21
  Speaker 7: debate what that looks like in the details. But my goodness,
• 33:24
  Speaker 7: I hate to see Christians today abdicate that responsibility because
• 33:28
  Speaker 7: they say, oh, no, no, no, no.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: Politics has nothing to do with the church.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but this was the play. You use the scary
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Gramscian Marxist hegemonic oppressor terminology, you know, white Christian nationalism.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: And what that does is is it off balances the
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Christian so that now the Christian begins to be fearful of,
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: you know, that terrible oppressive ideology. So we retreat from it, right?
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: And that's what's going on for a lot of people
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: now is they're retreating from it. And what they're also
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: retreating from is these basic principles that we're talking about,
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: which is why I think it's really important for us
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: to sort of get behind the terminology of And as
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: you said, just sort of get down to the basic
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: principles and then move forward from there, right? Here's what's true.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: Here's what's required of us. How do we get there
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: from here? and trying to wear other people's labels, I
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: think we'll get a lot farther in this.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we have lots of discussions about what
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: should be done, what can be done, what's the relationship
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: of the church to the state, how should the church
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: influence the state, should the state identify as Christians, all
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: these things about what we should do. But then what
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: is actually true? Daniel 7, 27 says this, and this
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: is speaking of after Christ has ascended to the one
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: on high and he's been given all authority in heaven
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: in Daniel 7, 727 says this, And who are those people?
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: That's God's people. That's the church.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: And certainly I'm not arguing that we merge the two together,
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: but we're going to inherit the nations. And you could
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: talk about the timing of that. Is that an over-realized eschatology?
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: I think it starts when Christ sits on his throne
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: at his ascension, and there's a progressive unfolding from then
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: until the end when he returns. But what should we do?
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: What shouldn't we do? Those are great conversations to have,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: but what is true?
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: This is true.
• 35:49
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: Amen.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 35:52
  Speaker 7: Yeah, the fact that Christ is Lord, we mustn't back
• 35:56
  Speaker 7: away from that claim in any sphere, and when people
• 36:00
  Speaker 7: tell us to keep our religion to ourselves, we can't
• 36:02
  Speaker 7: do that because we're Christians. We are obligated to make
• 36:06
  Speaker 7: disciples and to teach those disciples to observe everything that
• 36:10
  Speaker 7: Jesus has commanded us. So the principles of righteousness, the
• 36:15
  Speaker 7: principles of justice, mercy, all of that needs to be
• 36:19
  Speaker 7: set forth by God's people. If we don't teach folks
• 36:22
  Speaker 7: these things, who will? If we're not preaching God's law
• 36:26
  Speaker 7: and God's gospel... Nobody else is going to do it
• 36:28
  Speaker 7: because Christ has called his church to that responsibility and
• 36:32
  Speaker 7: given to us the commission to go and make disciples
• 36:36
  Speaker 7: for him.
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: Well, Vody, brother, we appreciate you so much.
• 36:40
  Speaker 7: We're grateful for all that you're doing there in Zambia
• 36:44
  Speaker 7: and the African Christian University. Grateful for your family and
• 36:48
  Speaker 7: the ministry that you have there too, your writing, your speaking.
• 36:51
  Speaker 7: Look forward to seeing you again, brother, and appreciate you
• 36:54
  Speaker 7: joining us today. And we're going to put links in
• 36:59
  Speaker 7: this podcast, in the notes of this podcast, to that
• 37:02
  Speaker 7: new curriculum from Salem where you can actually take Bodie's book,
• 37:05
  Speaker 7: Fault Lines, and use these video, the curricula of the videos,
• 37:11
  Speaker 7: and do that in small groups and benefit your friends,
• 37:14
  Speaker 7: your neighbors, your Sunday school class, or others in order
• 37:17
  Speaker 7: to help them understand what has gone on, what is
• 37:21
  Speaker 7: going on in the world in which we live right now.
• 37:24
  Speaker 7: So thanks for joining us today on The Sword and Trowel.
• 37:26
  Speaker 7: If this has been beneficial to you, please share it
• 37:28
  Speaker 7: and encourage others to subscribe to this podcast.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Why are we here? What is the most important thing
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: in the world?
• 37:43
  Speaker 7: One of our greatest problems is forgetting. We forget what
• 37:48
  Speaker 7: God has done for us. We forget what God has
• 37:50
  Speaker 7: taught us. We forget things that we have experienced.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: If we don't pause, if we don't think deeply, if
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: we aren't reminded again and again and again, we forget.
• 38:05
  Speaker 7: It strikes me pretty significantly in 2 Timothy chapter 2
• 38:14
  Speaker 7: verse 8, remember Jesus Christ. Why in the world would
• 38:20
  Speaker 7: Paul tell a pastor to remember Christ Well, he's not
• 38:23
  Speaker 7: going to forget that Jesus Christ lived and that Jesus
• 38:26
  Speaker 7: Christ taught, but he's going to forget the significance of Christ.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: Christ is ultimately our mission. The church is the body
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: of Christ. A church has to focus on the supremacy
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: of Christ because that's why we are a church.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: Christ is supreme over all. The church's great mission is
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: to preach Christ.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: We're there to win so much. We're there to advance
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: Christ's kingdom. The problem with the world is not that
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: they don't agree with me. The problem is that they
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: don't bow the knee to Christ.
• 39:17
  Speaker 7: So that's why we're going together to specifically, explicitly focus
• 39:22
  Speaker 7: on the supremacy of Christ. To do our best to
• 39:26
  Speaker 7: remind each other of the centrality of Christ the beauty
• 39:31
  Speaker 7: of Christ the glory of Christ so join us in
• 39:35
  Speaker 7: Fort Myers Florida January 18th through 20th 2024 as we
• 39:40
  Speaker 7: focus on Jesus Christ I hope to see you there