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Martha Tatarnic on The Queen who changed the Church Forever · Future Christian

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  Loren Richmond Jr (00:05) This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas, and the future of the church. Loren Richmond Jr (00:18) Today we're welcoming a familiar voice to the show. Martha Tatarnic a regular contributor and co-host on the show, is our guest today talking about her book, Boleyn, Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History. For those unfamiliar, Martha is a contributor to Christian Century, a blogger on Medium,
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  and co-host of this podcast. She's also the author of Why Gather? The Hope and Promise of the Church. She's a priest in the Anglican Church of Canada and rector at St. George's Anglican Church in St. Catharines, Ontario. She lives in St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada. Please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast. If you are not already, you can find Future Christian Martha and Loren on Instagram. Loren Richmond Jr (01:12) Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am Loren Richmond Jr. and
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  pleased to be joined by my co-host, but also special guest today, Martha Tatarnic Hello, welcome to the show. Martha Tatarnic (01:24) Hi Loren, it's ⁓ really fun to be here in kind of a different capacity than I normally am. Loren Richmond Jr (01:31) Yeah, I was thinking about this, Martha, like the first time we talked. I'm to look this up right now was what? 2022, I bet. When was that? Martha Tatarnic (01:39) Yeah, that sounds about right. Probably the fall of 2022, that's... Loren
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  Richmond Jr (01:43) Yeah, yeah, yeah. So glad to have you back in a guest capacity, I suppose, in this way. Martha is the author of the book Anne Boleyn, which we'll get to here briefly. But, you know, since you are a guest today, Martha, do you want to share kind of about yourself and your faith journey, how you got to where you are today? Martha Tatarnic (01:48) Yeah. Yeah, so I think that lots of our listeners know lots of things about me and my faith journey, lots of our regular
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  listeners, but there might be people listening for the first time, so I'll just give a little bit of synopsis. ⁓ I am an Anglican priest. I was ordained ⁓ about 22 years ago, and I have served in a variety of ⁓ different kinds of churches. Loren Richmond Jr (02:17) Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (02:35) For the last 12 years, I have been serving in St. Catharines in the Niagara region of Ontario, Canada. And it's a large ⁓ historical downtown church that ⁓ has quite a legacy of service in the
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  community. And because it is a downtown church, it's really invested in ministries with ⁓ the marginalized in our community, really involved in feeding and sheltering ministries and advocacy. ⁓ It's definitely a church that has walked the walk as well as talked the talk. have two teenage children. My husband is also an Anglican priest. And ⁓ this is my third published book of being able to ⁓ make it work over the years of serving as a priest to also ⁓ grow as a writer. Loren Richmond Jr
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  (03:38) Yeah, yeah. Any spiritual practices you're finding meaningful right now, you're willing to share. Martha Tatarnic (03:49) Yeah, that's a good question. ⁓ Lots ⁓ of our guests talk about the daily office and we do morning prayer here at the church a couple of times a week. ⁓ That's always just a really special time. It's a really small gathering, but ⁓ just that sense of Loren Richmond Jr (03:59) Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (04:17) joining in prayer that you know that ⁓ is being prayed all
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  over the world at that same time. You're in this small gathering, but it feels like a really big community. ⁓ And honestly, I do find the work that we do here on Future Christian to be a really important spiritual practice for me. ⁓ I just really, really value getting to hear wise voices from so many different parts of the church weighing in about what they're seeing and how they experience God moving in us and leading us and guiding us. I'm just sort of constantly ⁓ amazed at what ⁓ richness
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  emerges from these conversations. Loren Richmond Jr (04:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for sharing. Thanks for sharing that. Well, as mentioned already, Anne is the author of the book Anne Boleyn, Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History. So one of the things that I enjoyed as I read this, Martha, was your kind of appreciation, fascination, imagination with Anne. Martha Tatarnic (05:20) No. Loren Richmond Jr (05:42) Do want to share more about how that began
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  and then eventually how that bubbled up to like, want to write a book about this. Martha Tatarnic (05:48) Yeah, in lots of ways it maybe feels inevitable that I would write a book about Anne Boleyn even though it really wasn't on my radar until a couple of years ago. ⁓ She's just always been someone who has lived ⁓ in a very prominent place in my imagination. ⁓ I remember very vividly my mother introducing me to Anne Boleyn when I was a child watching Anne of the Thousand Days ⁓ with her and
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  with my dad as well. And lots of people have been introduced to Anne Boleyn through that movie or that representation. ⁓ But, you know, I just found myself always gravitating back to wanting to know more, ⁓ just being really... ⁓ unsettled in a great way by all of the things that are unanswered about her life, ⁓ by like this remarkable trajectory to power and then this very dramatic and sudden ⁓ and tragic end. ⁓ When I was in seminary, way back in the day, I found myself in my free time.
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  Loren Richmond Jr (06:53) Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (07:16) going to the Trinity College Library and ⁓ rating the tutor history sections ⁓ and finding it really validating and centering to realize that this figure who had been ⁓ so captivating to me across my childhood and adolescence was actually such a powerful figure. in shaping the English Reformation. And so here I am as a young woman, not always sure what the heck I was doing at seminary, other than just following this undeniable sense of
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  call, but not always feeling like I fit in or like, are you sure? Is this really like... what my life is supposed to be. ⁓ And then realizing how much the history of the church that I was getting prepared to serve had been shaped by this woman from 500 years prior. ⁓ And so over the years, I really enjoy opportunities to climb on my soapbox and tell people. You know, we always say in the Anglican Church and we say it sheepishly, ⁓ our church was started because King Henry VIII wanted a
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  divorce. And so I love telling people, well, actually, like the Anglican Church was created because the woman that King Henry VIII was interested in was a reformer. It's a like really different way of framing our history that like there was this principled ⁓ intelligent, pious woman who has her fingerprints smudged all across ⁓ what would become the Anglican Church. So I've always enjoyed kind of blowing people's minds with that ⁓ revelation. But it was a couple of years ago when I was climbing
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  on my soapbox with my brother and telling him about this that I started to seriously think about writing a book because my brother is a tough audience. He's not routinely interested in my soap boxes or my many opinions. He's not that interested in the church either. And as soon as I shared this with him, he was like, where is that book? Like, I want to read that book. Like, I literally have never heard any of this before. And I thought, huh. Like, my middle-aged accountant brother who's not
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  that interested in the church or my ideas is like really interested in this. think that there's a story that ⁓ needs to be told here. And again, like, it's not that historians haven't been on this for a long time. Like, historians have known and articulated for a long time anvil ins. Loren Richmond Jr (10:19) Mm-hmm. Martha Tatarnic (10:38) formidable influence in shaping the English Reformation, but it's not popularly known. It's not the story that people think they know about Ambal and it's
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  not the story that people think they know about the church. Loren Richmond Jr (10:51) Right. That's what I was thinking about is how it's interesting how Anne's story has been shaped by what history has chosen to emphasize or ignore. Like, cause again, I've heard that same story of like, was just Henry the eighth wanting divorce. You know, Anna was just kind of along for the ride and then a victim of his hubris or narcissism or whatever. Martha Tatarnic (11:14) Yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (11:20)
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  Certainly you get into this later in the book around how Anne's story, what fits into this, this repeated dynamic of women getting screw over by powerful men. yeah, I'm just curious, like, what do you think about when you think about Anne's story being unfairly emphasized or ignored, you know, some parts of it. Martha Tatarnic (11:48) Yeah, I mean, I think it's really interesting. ⁓ In so many ways, what this story or what this book became was, of course, an exploration of Ambulance's impact
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  and influence and a reclaiming of that. But it was also really like a conversation about how we talk about women and how we talk about history and Loren Richmond Jr (12:14) Mm-hmm. Martha Tatarnic (12:17) ⁓ how easily we slip into these patterns of how we tell stories. ⁓ You know, so much of what has been affixed to Anne Boleyn in terms of labels and accusations, you know, that she was promiscuous, that she was sexually deviant, that she was involved in nefarious, dark dealings, that ⁓ Loren
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  Richmond Jr (12:23) Right. Martha Tatarnic (12:46) that she was a seductress and a manipulator. So many of those labels that got attached to her were actually, ⁓ actually had a lot to do with people disagreeing with her religious convictions. But then that just gets lost on the cutting room floor as it becomes just so easy and natural to speak about. you know, women who don't behave the way that we think that they should also like attaching those other kinds of labels to them, right? Like that
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  strong, powerful women need to be cut down to size. And routinely we do that by calling them bad names, by accusing them of Loren Richmond Jr (13:26) Yeah. Hehe. Martha Tatarnic (13:45) ⁓ of sexual impropriety ⁓ and all kinds of other, you know, sorts of labeling. So a lot of Anne Boleyn's story has been like vastly misrepresented. And yet ⁓ in so many ways, we've talked about her, ⁓ the way that We talk about a lot of women and talk about a lot of patterns in history. So, ⁓ I think that
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  deserves to be interrogated. Loren Richmond Jr (14:18) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Something that I found really interesting was your emphasis on her faith. Like, again, that's something that I don't think has been emphasized. That certainly was new to me. You talked about, like, obviously, like, there's not a lot of historical, a ton of historical details, if I understood correctly, because you talk about how, a lot of that has been kind of washed away or written away or ignored. But you
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  kind of lay some context about how she was shaped and formed around other ⁓ female leaders and how like their faith would have surely influenced her, rubbed off on her. You talk about how, if I understood correctly again, like how ⁓ her and Henry, like Henry understood her as like a, a, I don't know, how to say it, like a, like a faith renewal, like a following God's direction. And I think that's again, like, Martha Tatarnic (15:20) Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (15:24) because of our modern
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  context, so often we miss that. So talk more about her faith and how that gets left behind. Martha Tatarnic (15:35) Yeah, I mean, I think that ⁓ more and more of the historical evidence ⁓ really solidifies the picture of Anne Boleyn as a principled, pious woman who was quite passionate about religious reform. She grew up in, primarily in the French court of Queen Claude of France. ⁓ And she was, she had a number of female role models, including Queen Claude, who were very invested in the
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  bubbling up of reform that was taking place on the continent. And the reform that Claude and Marguerite D'Angoulême and a few others in that circle the reform that they were interested in had a different sort of flavor and emphasis than, Lutheranism. So ⁓ Anne did not grow up as a Lutheran, but she grew up with, first of all, ⁓ a real centering of access to the Bible in ⁓ the vernacular, in one's own language, being able to read the Bible. And ⁓ And then kind of attached to that was a real
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  investment in practical reforms of the church. ⁓ So, you know, how the gospel calls us to ⁓ social justice. mean, that would not have been the term that they used then. But ⁓ that following Jesus should lead to Loren Richmond Jr (17:07) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Martha Tatarnic (17:27) how we invest ourselves in the practical wellbeing of our neighbor. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (17:35) me let me ask this Martha I'm curious like is it her faith ultimately is this a fair way to say that kind of
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  got her killed because I'm thinking about how like what was the term for the the monasteries that Henry just wanted to like basically suck up yeah how they just wanted to suck up all that wealth for themselves and she wanted to go towards if understood correctly she wanted to go towards communal aid essentially for taking Martha Tatarnic (17:49) The disillusion of the monest... monasteries, Yeah, I think it would be simplistic to say that her faith was what got her killed, ⁓ but certainly it
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  was part of a bunch of things that were going on in the early part of 1536. And she was newly vulnerable in a variety of ways. There were some political machinations that were not in her favor. She had had another miscarriage. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (18:17) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Martha Tatarnic (18:32) which really put her at risk because, ⁓ you know, Henry really believed that if he was right with God, then he would have sons. And so he became very convinced that he was not right with God because God
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  was judging his first marriage to Catherine of Aragon as being sinful. And so he believed. Loren Richmond Jr (18:35) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, right. Mm-hmm. Martha Tatarnic (19:02) that marrying Anne was going to correct his relationship with God and therefore the realms relationship with God. ⁓ To some degree, I mean, he really kind of set her up for failure because like the weight of expectation on her was enormous. in the midst of a lot of vulnerability, ⁓ she also put the pedal to the metal.
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  Loren Richmond Jr (19:24) Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (19:32) and ⁓ stuck her neck out in a very courageous and dangerous way in terms of going against Henry and his number one advisor, Thomas Cromwell, in how the spoils of the dissolution of the monasteries would be ⁓ spread out. ⁓ And, ⁓ you know, she kind of Loren Richmond Jr (19:56) Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (20:01) threw down the gauntlet, hoping, believing that Henry would side with her. And we know that he did not. ⁓ So again, lots of things
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  going on at that time. ⁓ But at every point along Anne's journey, both in capturing Henry's attention in the first place, her ascent to power, ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (20:11) Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (20:30) her, what she invested herself in during her reign, and then in the months leading up to her death, was all wrapped into fundamental religious questions and, ⁓ and her principles and her beliefs kind of being at the, at the center of what she was able to accomplish in her time on the throne.
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  Loren Richmond Jr (20:56) Yeah, as you described, a scene, like a very astute and voracious reader. So who's all reading things, suggesting them to Henry the eighth to read something I'm curious about as well. Cause what was it? The Gutenberg Bible that she had a copy of or the no, it was Wittenberg. No, I'm saying it wrong. Martha Tatarnic (21:15) No, ⁓ she had a copy of ⁓ the Tyndale New Testament. Yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (21:21) Tindale? Tindale. I'm wondering, this is like a hundred
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  years or 80 years after, but I'm, as someone who grew up very much formed in the King James Bible, like I wondered, like how much does her influence, you know, play out in even like the King James Bible, like King James ⁓ authorizing a English translation of the Bible to be made? Martha Tatarnic (21:47) Yeah, I mean, I think that ⁓ there are a number of places where you can see Anne's influence ⁓ as having such an enormous impact on what the Church of England and therefore the Anglican Church
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  would become. ⁓ And again, it's even more remarkable to kind of reflect on this given how short her time in power actually was. But she was Loren Richmond Jr (22:14) Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (22:15) very astute and she was ⁓ very effective in what she was doing. So ⁓ the two major accomplishments, and then there were kind of some spinoffs from this, of her time in power was ⁓ finally in 1535, the year before she died, the availability of an English Bible, the first printed English Bible. So yeah,
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  that is the precursor of Loren Richmond Jr (22:40) Mm-hmm. Martha Tatarnic (22:45) the famous King James Bible. ⁓ And like we're talking that, you know, reading the Bible in English had been or having English Bibles had been illegal. Like you could be exiled, you could be put to death, you could have these Bibles burned for existing. And in 1535, the ⁓ first printed English Bible was made available and it was ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (22:58) Right, right. Right. Martha Tatarnic (23:14) It was
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  dedicated to King Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn. ⁓ So yeah, that is the start of that trajectory. And the other major piece that have led very legitimate historians to call Anne not a catalyst of the Reformation, as is so often the label affixed to her, but rather an architect of the English Reformation, is that She absolutely in her time in power stacked the decks with reformers in positions of power, including Thomas Cranmer, who wrote the Book of Common Prayer. You know, how often do we talk on
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  this podcast about the daily office and the Book of Common Prayer and how that continues to shape people of faith? Loren Richmond Jr (23:59) Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha ha! Martha Tatarnic (24:13) Thomas Cramer wrote the Book of Common Prayer. He was Anne Boleyn's protege. And Matthew Parker was her protege as well. Those are two of the three figures who are consistently named as the theologians who shaped the distinctive Anglican thought. And there only a couple of the many, many people that she
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  personally moved into positions of power across the English church that really assured not only the continuation of the Reformation beyond her death, but also really shaped the kind of ⁓ church that was being created on English soil. So ⁓ she had an eye for talent. She made it a point of ⁓ paying attention to rising stars in the seminaries, and she got her people into positions of power. And, you know, we're still feeling the effects of that effectiveness hundreds of years later. Loren
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  Richmond Jr (25:24) Yeah, yeah, I want to ask about like and seems like a person who was like You know had a strong sense of her agency her her own voice like her refusal to Conform like how many years do you say like she was basically turning down Henry the eighth? ⁓ for you know his advances but also like It seems like, if I understood correctly, like what made her so unique would also... I don't want to say what's her downfall, but... Was costly? Does that make sense? Yeah, what else do you
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  want to say on that? Martha Tatarnic (26:05) constantly. Yeah, I think that, ⁓ you know, in terms of the evolving research and evidence about Anne Boleyn's life, there are a lot of scholars who are ⁓ questioning that whole narrative of her being the one to turn him down unless he agreed to marry her. ⁓ It seems more and more like ⁓ He was in the market for not a mistress, but a wife. And he set his sights on her quite possibly because he saw her as a woman of strong religious conviction. And
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  again, he was looking for someone to be his partner in writing the realms relationship with God. ⁓ And at the same time, yes, she was a strong, assertive figure. Loren Richmond Jr (26:42) Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (27:07) In many ways, you know, she was raised to see that as normal because she had been raised in the company of strong, powerful women on the continent. And she saw how women could have an impact and could get their voices heard. She also, you know, was very
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  much a product of her time. And she Loren Richmond Jr (27:12) Right? Martha Tatarnic (27:35) you know, didn't question that her job was also to produce heirs for King Henry VIII. She understood that ⁓ women's power is negotiated and that there is certainly a large degree to which you have to conform to expectations. So it's not that she ⁓ didn't have a handle on all of that as well, but she really, I think, was Loren Richmond Jr (27:41) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (28:05) set up to
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  believe that her voice mattered, that she could use it effectively, and that Henry's affections moved so decisively away from her ⁓ is, I'm sure, not the way that she saw the narrative going. Loren Richmond Jr (28:10) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm thinking about like bringing it even current tense from thinking about Ann, how do these labeling women as immoral or disruptive, these kind of gendered what are some of the ways they still continue to shape leadership perceptions or women's leadership
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  perceptions today, do think? Martha Tatarnic (28:59) Yeah, I mean, that's a really, that's a really big question. And, ⁓ you know, I think that a lot of, a lot of women who, ⁓ who are in positions of leadership can talk about the ways in which they ⁓ still experience uphill battles. ⁓ in terms of getting labeled, diminished. ⁓ cut down to size, ⁓ talked about in terms of how they look and how they dress and ⁓ whether or not they are ⁓ kind of conforming in the right ways to expectations. ⁓ I
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  think that there's a lot in Anne's story about how important it is to... ⁓ To be really clear that, you know, just because we have told the stories of history through the eyes of men so consistently doesn't mean that women haven't had their voices shaping our history as well, haven't had their ⁓ impact and imprint. on the world that we have today. think that's really important for women in leadership today to know that they're not just always forging a new path. you know, we've always been
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  here. We've always led. We've always contributed. We've always had things to say and ideas to add to the mix. And just because we haven't been good at Loren Richmond Jr (30:42) Hmm, okay, yeah. Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (30:58) seeing that or speaking about it doesn't mean that it's not there. ⁓ I think that legitimacy in ⁓ like claiming that legitimacy of female power today is really empowering. I certainly find it very empowering. Like I am serving in a church that has women has had women in
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  leadership longer than I've been alive. And yet still, ⁓ regularly, like people will come to my church for the first time and say, that's the first time I've ever seen a woman in the pulpit. That's the first time I've ever seen a woman at the altar. Yeah, but I mean, it still happens all the time, right? So, ⁓ so counteracting that kind of like pioneering path that, that in one way we're on. Loren Richmond Jr (31:35) Wow. Wow. Martha Tatarnic (31:56) with the knowledge that actually like
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  we're part of ⁓ a long and faithful team. ⁓ I think that's really important. And I think it's really important not just in terms of ⁓ feeling validated in our own role, but I think it's really important in terms of how we see God and how we see God at work in our churches and in our history and in our world that, you God's never been limited to just working through the dudes. Loren Richmond Jr (32:29) Yeah Well, I really appreciate that point too, because I'm thinking like, think one thing we
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  would both affirm, right, is like that God works through ways unexpected in the margins, you know, outside the centers of power and history. So I'm glad you raised that point. You know, as a sports fan too, I'd like the long and faithful team. Shout out. Martha Tatarnic (32:55) Yeah, yeah, long and faithful team. Yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (32:59) i want to ask i was texting you about this i think in this book written by beth allison bar who it financially correctly is a southern southern baptist
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  pastor's wife and also professor she wrote a book on being the pastor's wife forget the exact title but it really came to mind because i think she was in in another context highlighting like that the systemic challenges in her context pastor's wives face kind of being limited, know, that systems set them up for often for to be the recipients of abuse and mistreatment and limit their voices. this is what came to mind when I thought about Anne, she was, you know, Henry was not a pastor, but he
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  was like, you know, the Pope of of the Church of England. Certainly that's not a term that they would have used back then, but you know, the leader of the Church of England, and she was his wife in the system, if I understand correctly, again, kind of set her up for abuse and mistreatment. So just kind of lamenting, I suppose, how this same dynamic continues to exist year after year, century after century. Martha Tatarnic (34:22) Yeah, I mean, I think that there are so many, like, for sure,
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  you never want to ⁓ look back on history just thinking, well, they're just like us. Like, you're probably missing some context and ⁓ nuance if you are just kind of... Loren Richmond Jr (34:40) Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (34:51) reading the history through a 21st century lens. And at the same time, like, there's, think, something really valid in reading history through a 21st century lens in terms of noticing patterns, like noticing the patterns for how we speak, how we assume, what conclusions we
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  draw. And, you know, there are a variety of ways in which Loren Richmond Jr (35:05) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Martha Tatarnic (35:21) ⁓ The story of Ambalen or the story as it has been told is kind of a tale as old as time. there's definitely, ⁓ and you you can go right back to the pages of the Bible to find this pattern writ large, but there is ⁓ just this ongoing pattern of Loren Richmond Jr (35:30) Mm-hmm. All right. Martha Tatarnic (35:50) not really knowing what to do with strong assertive
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  women. So we call them whores, right? Like Mary Magdalene, I'm looking at you. Loren Richmond Jr (35:54) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, we're going to shout your ⁓ Mary Magdalene episodes in the fat past. Martha Tatarnic (36:04) Yeah, yeah. You know, and there are a variety of other women in the pages of the Bible who have been saddled with labels of sexual deviancy rather than taking ⁓ their agency and their leadership seriously. So that is certainly an ongoing pattern. ⁓ Again, like right back to
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  the pages of the Bible and some of these stories come up in the Ambulant book. ⁓ But just this way in which we make it a fairy tale when a powerful man picks a woman, you know? Like, okay, the prince holds a ball and Loren Richmond Jr (36:53) Mm-hmm. Martha Tatarnic (36:59) invites all the eligible maidens of the land to attend and picks one and suddenly she's his wife and they lived happily ever after. Well, like that's not a great story, right? Like it's not a great story ⁓ for women to be
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  targeted by men and ⁓ really have no say in the matter, just like I'll take that one. And, you know, suddenly they're vaulted into this position of power and danger. And the story doesn't always end well for women who have been just... Loren Richmond Jr (37:30) Yeah. Right. Martha Tatarnic (37:45) forced into positions that they haven't even chosen for themselves. But, you know, it's been easier for us to kind of romanticize that as a narrative that, well, of course, a woman's highest
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  accomplishment is being picked by a man. ⁓ yeah, I mean, I, I could definitely go on and on, but, ⁓ there are just a variety of ways in which Anne Boleyn's story, I think, continues to resonate, ⁓ in really powerful ways. And honestly, that's probably why she continues to be so captivating. Like, Loren Richmond Jr (38:36) Right, right. Martha Tatarnic (38:36) I realize not everybody knows about Anne Boleyn, but a surprising number of people do know about Anne Boleyn. Like she does tend to
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  be. Loren Richmond Jr (38:44) Yeah, talk about the social media influence now of Anne Boleyn. Martha Tatarnic (38:51) Yeah, I mean, I was surprised as I was beginning to talk about writing this book when my teenage daughter said, like Anne Boleyn, like she's one of the two most important historical figures to people my age, the other one being Joan of Arc. And, you know, that's like, that's interesting. It's interesting that the gen Zed Loren Richmond Jr (39:11) Yeah. All Martha Tatarnic
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  (39:21) Gen Z ⁓ generation finds Anne Boleyn captivating. It's interesting that my brother finds Anne Boleyn captivating. It's interesting that historians find Anne Boleyn captivating. It's interesting that pop culture continues to find Anne Boleyn captivating, that so many different representations of her life continue to be offered. ⁓ It's like we just keep coming back because like we know that there's more to be said. Loren Richmond Jr (39:57) Mm-hmm, and I suppose like in some ways too
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  because her life was taken so short, you know because it was cut short there's a lot of like I imagine there's some like wanting to project or imagine what else right? With any life taken too soon Martha Tatarnic (40:17) Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, there are there are elements of her story that ⁓ that are so dramatic, like so dramatic that this woman who was of noble birth, but like was kind of a nobody in the grand scheme of things that she ⁓ became the Queen of England, that the the Loren
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  Richmond Jr (40:27) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Martha Tatarnic (40:46) country of England like split from the Roman Catholic Church over her marriage to the king. And that after all of this conspiring and ⁓ like kind of literal moving of heaven and earth to allow this marriage to happen that three years after the marriage, the king had her head cut off. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (41:15) Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (41:16) Like it is a dramatic story. And then also kind of the footnote that her daughter Elizabeth
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  became one of the monarchs of England, Elizabeth I, know, one of the great, powerful, influential monarchs of England. ⁓ Like it's, there are just so many elements of her story that, ⁓ invite further investigation and reflection. Loren Richmond Jr (41:52) Yeah, it's such a fascinating story and at least so much to wonder about as to fill in the blanks. As you shared in that, as I think about like, again, present day implications, something that really hit me, again, as I was reading the book
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  is you talked about like all the ways women in leadership today and women in the church are subject to double standards or... ⁓ expectations that men would not be. think we can both agree, being a new pastor in general is hard, being a new pastor in a new church, being new to a new church is hard, but I did not at all have to deal with some of the that you describe in the church, you experiencing, and I'm sure countless ⁓ female clergy have experienced. So I just, like, I want to ask this,
• 4:12
  like, there's, there's obviously, like, the world is different than it was in Anne's time, but still so much, so much to do better. Where do you see opportunities for systems, church systems to do better, ⁓ churches to do better, men to do better? Martha Tatarnic (43:14) Yeah, let me kind of name a couple of things here. ⁓ I think that where I really see a stall in terms of our ⁓ our march toward equality in the church is when we get to self-congratulatory. ⁓ I think that, I think it is really
• 4:16
  easy in the church to settle for ⁓ virtue signaling and for kind of doing a thing and then putting ourselves on the back. Loren Richmond Jr (43:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (44:08) and thinking, okay, now that is done. Right? okay, well, we started ordaining women. ⁓ So like, we're better than all those other denominations who don't ordain women. And so look at us, aren't we great? But then, you we don't consider like the policies that need to be in place to Loren Richmond Jr (44:11)
• 4:20
  Yeah. Yeah. Right. Martha Tatarnic (44:37) allow women to thrive and flourish in ministry, to be able to have and raise families, be able to ⁓ bring their gifts in all of the ways that women bring their gifts. This is probably my concern with the recent appointment of the new Archbishop of Canterbury, the first woman in that role. ⁓ Obviously, like a great day for the church, as long as it doesn't make us become complacent and think, okay, well, like, if there's a woman in the highest office
• 4:24
  of the church, the Anglican church, then everything's fine. ⁓ But again, like, are we, are we Loren Richmond Jr (45:11) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, everything's fine. Martha Tatarnic (45:35) serious about ⁓ all of the ways in which misogyny ⁓ can still be operating. one of my big concerns, and I think it is intimately ⁓ connected to everything that we're talking about here, is does our church take seriously sexual misconduct? And are we being conscientious about how ⁓ complaints are handled? How
• 4:28
  stories are listened to? How voices are ⁓ respected? Are we interested in kind of revisiting policies and procedures that Loren Richmond Jr (46:09) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (46:34) be a little more survivor centered. ⁓ That, like, I'm not saying to just throw out the, you know, the mechanisms for justice and fairness and for everybody to, you know, have a chance to be innocent until proven guilty and all of those things, but like, Loren Richmond Jr (46:38) Yeah. Martha Tatarnic
• 4:32
  (46:59) How are we really communicating at the heart of our policies and procedures that ⁓ women matter, that vulnerable people matter, that making our churches safe matters, that honoring people's dignity matters? Loren Richmond Jr (47:12) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I think, I mean... Like prioritizing safety, protection for vulnerable populations, like that's going to require explicit choices ⁓ that so often is hard to want to do. It certainly costs time, certainly costs
• 4:36
  energy and resources. And unfortunately, too long, it's been like, it's just a... ⁓ Martha Tatarnic (48:00) Yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (48:05) Cost of doing business, so to speak, right? Martha Tatarnic (48:08) Yeah, and it requires humility, right? Like it requires being okay with having a lot to learn. Like, I'm a woman, but like I have had to learn a lot about how prevalent sexual abuse is, how prevalent it is in our churches and how ⁓ many barriers there are. Loren Richmond Jr (48:11) Yes.
• 4:40
  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (48:35) are in our churches and in society, against women being able to come forward and seek justice. You know, I would say I grew up like very sheltered from all of that. I've had to learn a lot. ⁓ Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean that I don't have a lot to learn. ⁓ And certainly all of us collectively have a lot to learn. But if you sort of come into it feeling like, okay, well, Loren Richmond Jr (48:44) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, same. Martha Tatarnic (49:05) ⁓
• 4:44
  you know, we've already got everything figured out and look at how great we are, but like, that's not ⁓ a great starting place for growth. Loren Richmond Jr (49:09) Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate this conversation. The book was a lot of, I don't know, fun's right word. And I sometimes got lost like the family dynamics of, you know, 15th century, 16th century, whatever century it was, you know, the 16th century family dynamics were a bit confusing at times. ⁓
• 4:48
  but I really liked what you did with the book and I really hope, ⁓ Martha Tatarnic (49:36) 16th century. Loren Richmond Jr (49:47) Folks check it out, Anne Boleyn, reputation, revolution, religion, and the queen who changed history. So I appreciate this conversation. Should we do some closing questions? Martha Tatarnic (50:00) Yeah, let's do some closing questions. Loren Richmond Jr (50:02) I feel like I need to ask you this way Martha, if you were, if you were like not the Pope but since
• 4:52
  you know if you were the Church of England Archbishop I don't know feel free to answer it how you would, how you will. Martha Tatarnic (50:17) Yeah. If I were Pope or Archbishop for a day, what would I do? ⁓ Yeah, like, definitely I would like to be in charge of some part of the church where women aren't in leadership yet so that I could change that. And, you know, I like I'm not somebody who has any sort of sentimental ideas about how Loren Richmond Jr (50:26) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Martha Tatarnic
• 4:56
  (50:51) Well, if you put women in leadership, then you're going to have more nurturing and compassionate and, ⁓ you know, collaborative models of leadership. I think that women are people and like, there are lots of women who are compassionate and collaborative and lots who are, you know, competitive and assertive and strong-willed and all of those things. I think Loren Richmond Jr (51:18) Mm-hmm. Martha Tatarnic (51:22) Like the harvest is great and the laborers are few. And like, I think God
• 5:00
  wants to use all of our gifts in serving the church. So let's just open up the flood gates and ⁓ make sure that everybody's gifts are welcomed at the leadership table in our churches. Loren Richmond Jr (51:27) Yeah. this going incredibly off script here are some of the thoughts came to mind so i want to ask it because if and had been given opportunity like in this bizarre world where this was even a possibility do you think like in she could have been like head of church in london you think
• 5:04
  she'd been like yes Martha Tatarnic (51:46) Okay. I mean, I'm sure that that was not ⁓ an idea on her radar at all, because that would have been like so far outside of the norm. But at the same time, I mean, she was in the company of a variety of women around that time and women who followed her, including her stepdaughter, Mary, and her own daughter, Elizabeth. Loren Richmond Jr (52:14) Right, is a thoroughly 21st century question. Martha Tatarnic (52:33) who ⁓ were ruling whole countries
• 5:08
  in ways that people found pretty novel ⁓ and like a big step forward. I don't know, maybe it wouldn't be that much of a stretch for her to have also imagined. It would probably be a pretty big stretch, but ⁓ I think she would have been great in that role. She would have done a great job. Loren Richmond Jr (52:41) Right. Yeah. I'm assuming that Anne is the theologian or Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life, so I'm going to frame the question this way. If you had a ⁓ moment
• 5:12
  or a lunch or meeting with Anne, what's like the first thing you'd want to ask her? Martha Tatarnic (53:20) All right, well, first of all, I think I just want to say that I'm pretty sure that when you interviewed me for the first time on this podcast back in 2022, that Anne Boleyn was my answer back then as well, even though that was quite a while before I had any notion of writing this book. So I think that's very cool. You can check the you can check the transcript, but I'm pretty sure that's
• 5:16
  what I said. So, yeah, what would I ask her right away? Loren Richmond Jr (53:32) ⁓ I think you're right. Yeah. Get it. Martha Tatarnic (53:50) I would just like really want to know how she actually felt about Henry. Like, I, again, like there has just been this easy gloss on stories of women being selected by powerful men that like, of course this is what women want. There are a few like little glimmers at the end of Anne's life that suggests that she didn't think he was all that great.
• 5:20
  Loren Richmond Jr (54:08) Yeah, yeah. Martha Tatarnic (54:20) like that he was a little bit of a disappointment. Loren Richmond Jr (54:24) That was an entertaining part of the book for sure. Martha Tatarnic (54:27) Yeah. So yeah, like, it might be hard for her to tease out like, to what degree her own feelings about Henry were relevant at all, right? Because like, again, when, when the King of England says, I want that one, like, there isn't a lot of choice involved. But I would love to
• 5:24
  know, like, were there times when Loren Richmond Jr (54:43) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (54:55) they actually were like when she found him to be an interesting intellectual partner, were there times when they legitimately, she legitimately enjoyed his company and found him ⁓ to be interesting? Would she have had feelings of love for him or was it really just making the best of an unusual circumstance and ⁓ you know, maybe love never crossed her mind. I would just like love to get inside
• 5:28
  her mind and know what she actually thought about. Loren Richmond Jr (55:37) Yeah. How about this? How would you like to see and influence continue to make a positive impact on the future of Christianity in the church? Martha Tatarnic (55:48) Well, ⁓ I think that there is absolutely no way that you can legitimately draw a straight line between Anne's influence 500 years ago and the church that we have today. It's not a straight line at all. But I do think that the Anglican church at its best
• 5:32
  embodies a lot of the qualities of ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (56:06) Mm-hmm. Martha Tatarnic (56:17) of what Anne fought for and the church that she was part of shaping. ⁓ Whether you look at the Anglican Church as sort of that middle way between honoring and continuing a lot of the traditions that have been passed along to us, the Catholic side of the faith, while also embracing that reformed spirit. that sense of like, okay, God isn't done with us yet. We still have a ways to go. That kind of
• 5:36
  amazing partnership that ⁓ would really become central to the Anglican identity. mean, that was a church that she would recognize. ⁓ I think that at our best, the Anglican church really is able to ⁓ embrace a personal relationship with God through Jesus and a centering of scripture that then calls us to action in meaningful ways, that like calls us to try to make things better for our neighbors. ⁓ think Anne would have like recognized and celebrated that kind of church. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr
• 5:40
  (57:29) Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (57:46) Yeah, and I think that ⁓ the intellectual curiosity that was such a big part of her life and of that time, that sense of like whole new worlds opening up and ⁓ people reading and wrestling with new ideas. ⁓ I think the Anglican Church today at its best. Loren Richmond Jr (57:54) Yeah, yeah. Martha Tatarnic (58:15) really continues to embrace that call to inquiring and discerning hearts, know, that curiosity at the center of our faith in a way that I would
• 5:44
  really want to see celebrated. Loren Richmond Jr (58:34) Yeah, yeah, thanks so much for sharing that. So the book is as we're, as this releases will be available. I assume everywhere books are sold. Yeah. Martha Tatarnic (58:45) Yeah, yeah, you can definitely pre-order it now and ⁓ it is available in all of the usual places that books are sold. ⁓ And, you know, if you're in the Niagara region, I'll sign it for you. Loren Richmond Jr (59:06) Well, Martha, thanks so much. I unfortunately have
• 5:48
  to go, but I really appreciate this time and conversation. Rooting for the book and your work, Martha. So, thanks so much for this conversation. I'll leave you with a word of peace. May God's peace be with you. Martha Tatarnic (59:21) And also with you, Loren, thanks so much for today's conversation.